Tournament List (450)

[Zelreth]

Hi everyone!
Im pretty new here but i wanted to post a list that beat me soundly during the General Wars event at gencon 2012.

Marro Stingers x5 - 300
Krug - 120
Drow Chainfighter - 25
Total - 445

The 2 main perks of this list are the almost inexhaustable numbers of the marro and the hitting power of krug. Feel free to comment or offer ideas and critiques! Remember this list was played in general wars so only one general may be used.)

[dok]

While that army is quite strong, my main criticism of it, such as it is, is that Krug is somewhat redundant with the stingers. There are some matchups where Krug is great and stingers aren't, most of the time more (yes, even more) stingers would be better.

I'm pretty sure there were some Marro Stinger x7 + Marcu + Isamu builds in General Wars.

Krug is best in armies that otherwise lack the ability to dispose of high-defense heroes. This is why he's so useful in Arrow Grut builds, and why he can be effective as a standalone hero alongside Goblin Cutters. I know I would rather have had him in my General Wars army (Cuttersx5+Cyprien+Sonya... Cyprien was terrible all day. Krug+Zettian Guards would have been a dramatic improvement...).

[Zelreth]

I can see what you are saying about more stingers im personally a big fan of them and as with any common squad more is better, however i have to disagree with you about krug more for personal preference than any other reason. The reason for me thinking of krug as a good choice mainly comes from him doing so well for me during that same tournament ( i was playing an ork army build with krug ) i even had him single handedly kill 380 points in one game and 12 or 13 romans in another.

Thanks for the feedback!

-Zelreth

[Lyrgard]

^ Reported

Well, more on the subject, the army is great. Stinger and Krug are forces to reckon.
What this army lacks is special attacks. So whatever units strong against normal attacks will be nice.

Rats come to mind, but also the Phantom Knights. Then, to take care of the "inexhaustable", why not have an even more inexhaustable supply of freash food ? Zombies !!
They only move 4, but 6 of them move, and the range of stinger is 5, so, on flat maps, they cannot prevent 3 of them to come adjacent (6 zombies advance, stingers come to range and kill max 3 of them, remaining 3 zombies can close the gap.). 2 attacks against 3 defense = 33% of kill. With 3 attack dice against 3 defense dices, they have 50% of killing. Each time you kill a stinger, a zombie rise again.

I did a simulation, using the following rules :
each turn, 3 stinger or 3 zombies attacks. Stingers kill 2 zombie a turn, 1 the following turn, 2 the next, and so on.
Zombies kills 1 stinger a turn.

Starting with 15 zombies and 15 stingers, at the end you have
0 stingers and 8 zombies !

You will tell me : "and stinger drain ?"
I'm not willing to calculate probability for this one. So lets say with using stinger drain, stingers kill 2 zombies a turn, but a turn every 5 they lose their stinger drains, don't kill any zombie and lose one of them.

They do better, at the end :
0 stingers and 7 zombies !

Moreover, zombie can combine their strengh to kill Krug quickly. Also, they are cheaper, allowing to take others things to take care of Krug if needed

I think zombies are the answer to this army.

[dok]

I agree that zombies can be surprisingly effective against stingers. The X factor in your calculations there is height advantage. On many maps, stingers will be able to hunker down on a high spot, and force zombies to attack up and defend down. If that happens, it's curtains for the zombies. However, on maps where the zombies can get to even ground and bring their force to bear against the stingers, they will usually come out on top.

Since the OP was discussing this in the context of general wars, the obvious answer to "what beats this" is a full startzone of 4th Mass. Antiranged armies also work: Phantom Knights x6 + Marcu/Isamu and Goblin Cutters x5 + whatever (I tried Cyprien/Sonya for the last 200; in retrospect I might have preferred Zettian Guards and one of Fen Hydra, Krug, and DW8k).

Rats are always a good counter to commons, too. You could also try rat/stinger mixes (2 squads of rats and 4 squads of stingers leaves enough points and spaces for Cypren or Hydra/Marcu/Isamu), or a full-on ratpodge (3x, 4x or even 5x with some combination of Mezzodemons, DW8k, and Hydras).

[Lyrgard]

You are right, I didn't take height into account, and the stingers being range have the advantage. But it is more difficult to calcultate.

For instance, if a stinger is up and is slained, it become a zombie that is on height. Stinger will probably kill him, but
- with heigth, it will be harder
- even if they do, they cannot move after firing to reclaim this high ground, and the zombies will take it.

So, it depend a lot on luck I think. If zombies are lucky, they quickly get a kill that allow them to invade high ground. If stingers are lucky, they keep the high ground enough time to dimunish the number of zombies enough be winner.

Now that I think of it, zombie have a natural ability to invade place, because their "rise again" is like a move after attacking, allowing to "conquer" hexagones.