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  #13813  
Old April 20th, 2014, 08:29 PM
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Re: Public Design Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
I'm far from a Batman fan, but I can sort of see AG's point - I think Batman could use a few extra glyphs with a more general use, though not too many, and not too powerful. He just doesn't feel useful or versatile at present - it would be cool if he could plan for subtle differences in the terrain and armies rather than really simple 'my opponent has Superman so I'm packing the Kryptonite Gauntlets' counterdrafts, though maybe one or two of those are alright.
The plan has always been to add more glyphs to the mix, so I'm not against that. I just don't want to add any that are great in every situation. Maybe some more that are decent in every situation.

You're missing out in the fandom arena, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
The explosive batarangs I can see the point of, as I have seen him use them numerous times in the Justice League cartoons - I'd consider making it one attack and upping the attack by one, though, to make it more distinct from the regular Bat Shurikens.
I like that idea. I even like the idea of the specialty batarangs being limited use (maybe starting with three markers on the card and once you use them, you're out) and giving them fairly buffed up attacks and effects. This would make them less reliable than the shurikens, but still worth considering, especially against beefier opponents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Personally, I like the idea of Batman version II being designed as a jack of all trades but a master of none - he can turn his hand to most things, and be pretty good at it, but a lot of the time someone else will be able to do better at something specific. That would fit Batman pretty well from what I've seen, IMO.
Agreed. And great way of putting it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
I like the idea of having more options but at the same time would not want to see 3 must have glyphs created, where those are the only ones ever used. If the new glyphs are more specific/situational counters like the Gloves & Goggles then I think they would be a fantastic addition.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
Think of how it would work for a competitive/tournament environment. You bring Batman II as part of your army along with 10 different glyphs. At the start of each of your 4-5 games, you look over your opponents army and the map you were assigned and pick out the 3 you want to use for that 1 game. Over the course of those 4-5 games you might end up using 7-8 different glyphs as a result. Then you really get the Batman gadget theme down.
Agreed. But we have to be careful not to go too far with the niche glyphs either. If we make a Batman that's worth more than his cost in every conceivable situation, then he's a Batman worth more than his cost ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
You also have to remember that their is an issue of balance with all the new glyphs. You make a new glyph too good and suddenly Batman II is worth more than 250 points.
A key point if there ever has been one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock View Post
I disagree. I don't think it's necessary to make everything so niche like the Gloves and Goggles. Why can't we have more like Shuriken, Pellet, and Grapnel?
I'd argue the Shuriken (crowds) and Grapnel (maps with lots of elevation changes) are both pretty niche themselves. There are lots of matches (nothing but heavy hitters, or really flat maps) where I might not want to take either of those.

The nice thing about bringing in more niche glyphs (Batmobile remote for flatter maps, exploding Batarangs that don't have as many uses, but hit harder, for heavy hitters) is that we can push some of the existing "generalist" glyphs into more niche territory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock View Post
So right now, IMO, Batman is pretty boring.
Eesh, not trying to make many friends, are you? I'd say this Batman is more dynamic than 90% of designs as is. I want to add more to him too, but "pretty boring"? Really?

Anyway, you're preaching to the choir in general, because the plan always was and always has been to add more to his glyph collection. I think a few of us are just putting up strong (and necessary) advisories about the things we need to carefully consider while doing so.

I know it's easy to want a Batman who's the baddest of the bad and can beat everyone always, but we do need to seriously make sure to avoid power creep here and resist the temptation to make him everything to everyone always.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin View Post
Personally, I'd rather see more niche glyphs than more general-use ones. That would require a higher number of glyphs in order to get Batman really versatile than the general-use route would, but I think it would be more interesting and fitting overall.
I completely agree with this sentiment. It'll also be easier to add niche glyphs that don't unbalance or overpower Bats. His cost of 250 is static, so any additional glyphs have to be careful not to upset his balance at that cost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin View Post
That said...
  1. A couple more general-use glyphs would still be nice, even if I would rather see the balance swing in favor of the niche designs.
  2. It's for public design, so whatever we get will be driven by what the community wants. Can't hurt to get the ideas out there.
Agreed on both points here as well. But we'll need to tread carefully.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
I get what you are saying AS, what I am saying is be careful not to make 3 new bat-glyphs that become the new automatic 3 taken every time.
That's key, as is not doing anything that will bump his cost. He's very worth the 250 points as is, IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
It seems like any all-purpose glyphs should be weaker in most/all scenarios than the scenario-specific glyphs are in their scenarios.
Agreed. And that's an important point to keep in mind for any glyph we add. They should either be: a) a highly niche glyph or b) a general purpose glyph that is no more useful than any glyph he currently has (slightly less useful is OK - redundant is not).

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  #13814  
Old April 20th, 2014, 09:51 PM
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Re: Public Design Post

I stand by my opinion. Batman is by far my favorite character, ever since I was a child. Yet, I don't care to use him in c3g. Maybe "pretty boring" is too harsh of verbiage, but my honest opinion is that he's just not the Batman I feel is deserved. I've said this before, so this is nothing new. I've also said I play 2000+ point matches, on custom maps, with 4-5 people. So that's certainly a factor I'm sure. However, none of my friends pick him, and neither do I. It's a shame, but it's the truth. However, I said it's "in my opinion", thus I'm not saying it's fact, just my opinion.

Sorry if that loses friendship or makes people not like me. I'll always be honest, and state my opinion. Good or bad, agreed or not. I've complimented designs, I've helped playtest, spread the word of c3g on other forums and to my friends, I participate on the forums, and I try to give back or share the wealth when I can. So excuse me if stating an opinion that you don't agree with overrides that. I've had my Malekith design labeled as "boring" by a couple, it happens. People have opinions.

I'll politely bow out of the Bat utility designs because clearly I'm not in a favorable majority mindset, certainly not the first time. It seems it's best. I just stay out of this thread. Lol
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  #13815  
Old April 20th, 2014, 09:54 PM
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Re: Public Design Post

I don't think we're really that far off on what we want or expect here and I have no problem with you having the opinion that you do, I just find it one hard to believe.

Sorry if you're feeling censored. You shouldn't.

P.S. All of my friends have some opinions I don't like. I more meant that it seemed like an extreme way of putting things. If it's accurate for you, though, so be it.

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  #13816  
Old April 20th, 2014, 09:57 PM
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Re: Public Design Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock View Post
I stand by my opinion. Batman is by far my favorite character, ever since I was a child. Yet, I don't care to use him in c3g. Maybe "pretty boring" is too harsh of verbiage, but my honest opinion is that he's just not the Batman I feel is deserved. I've said this before, so this is nothing new. I've also said I play 2000+ point matches, on custom maps, with 4-5 people. So that's certainly a factor I'm sure. However, none of my friends pick him, and neither do I. It's a shame, but it's the truth. However, I said it's "in my opinion", thus I'm not saying it's fact, just my opinion.

Sorry if that loses friendship or makes people not like me. I'll always be honest, and state my opinion. Good or bad, agreed or not. I've complimented designs, I've helped playtest, spread the word of c3g on other forums and to my friends, I participate on the forums, and I try to give back or share the wealth when I can. So excuse me if stating an opinion that you don't agree with overrides that. I've had my Malekith design labeled as "boring" by a couple, it happens. People have opinions.

I'll politely bow out of the Bat utility designs because clearly I'm not in a favorable majority mindset, certainly not the first time. It seems it's best. I just stay out of this thread. Lol
That last part is certainly not true, just look at the public nominations thread. You have support and people want to see it, and while it may not push everyone's buttons right, it certainly does some people. Otherwise, I'd probably stay out of designing too.

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  #13817  
Old April 21st, 2014, 08:22 AM
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Re: Public Design Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
I'm far from a Batman fan, but I can sort of see AG's point - I think Batman could use a few extra glyphs with a more general use, though not too many, and not too powerful. He just doesn't feel useful or versatile at present - it would be cool if he could plan for subtle differences in the terrain and armies rather than really simple 'my opponent has Superman so I'm packing the Kryptonite Gauntlets' counterdrafts, though maybe one or two of those are alright.
The plan has always been to add more glyphs to the mix, so I'm not against that. I just don't want to add any that are great in every situation. Maybe some more that are decent in every situation.

You're missing out in the fandom arena, though.
Cool. When it comes to the fandom arena, Batman's never really appealed to me - psycho guy with no powers who people think can still beat everyone? No thanks - I know that some Batman fans tend to get silly about how powerful their favourite character is (you seem one of the more reasonable ones ), and that is somewhat off-putting. He also seems to have some serious mental issues, and his unwillingness to kill the Joker seems weird to me. There are some cool ideas there, but from what I've heard there's always been a tendency to take him a bit too far (e.g. the idea that he has a backup plan in order to take out every member of the Justice League is awesome, if still a little bit psycho - but in no way should that mean he's actually able to pull them all off) - and, IMO, when it comes to uber-rich powerless superheroes, no one can touch Tony Stark.

That said, the Dark Knight film trilogy was awesome - the Dark Knight itself is actually one of my favourite films, and second favourite superhero film (second only to Avengers). That's probably more to do with the villains and supporting characters than Batman himself though - am I the only one who found Alfred, Lucius and Gordon cooler than Bruce?

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
The explosive batarangs I can see the point of, as I have seen him use them numerous times in the Justice League cartoons - I'd consider making it one attack and upping the attack by one, though, to make it more distinct from the regular Bat Shurikens.
I like that idea. I even like the idea of the specialty batarangs being limited use (maybe starting with three markers on the card and once you use them, you're out) and giving them fairly buffed up attacks and effects. This would make them less reliable than the shurikens, but still worth considering, especially against beefier opponents.
Sounds like a cool idea.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Personally, I like the idea of Batman version II being designed as a jack of all trades but a master of none - he can turn his hand to most things, and be pretty good at it, but a lot of the time someone else will be able to do better at something specific. That would fit Batman pretty well from what I've seen, IMO.
Agreed. And great way of putting it.
Well, thank you, sir.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
Think of how it would work for a competitive/tournament environment. You bring Batman II as part of your army along with 10 different glyphs. At the start of each of your 4-5 games, you look over your opponents army and the map you were assigned and pick out the 3 you want to use for that 1 game. Over the course of those 4-5 games you might end up using 7-8 different glyphs as a result. Then you really get the Batman gadget theme down.
Agreed. But we have to be careful not to go too far with the niche glyphs either. If we make a Batman that's worth more than his cost in every conceivable situation, then he's a Batman worth more than his cost ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
You also have to remember that their is an issue of balance with all the new glyphs. You make a new glyph too good and suddenly Batman II is worth more than 250 points.
A key point if there ever has been one.
Agreed with Bats - Batman vII is a really cool concept, but there aren't many units who can change so dramatically over time as this guy has the potential to. He needs careful management.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock View Post
I disagree. I don't think it's necessary to make everything so niche like the Gloves and Goggles. Why can't we have more like Shuriken, Pellet, and Grapnel?
I'd argue the Shuriken (crowds) and Grapnel (maps with lots of elevation changes) are both pretty niche themselves. There are lots of matches (nothing but heavy hitters, or really flat maps) where I might not want to take either of those.

The nice thing about bringing in more niche glyphs (Batmobile remote for flatter maps, exploding Batarangs that don't have as many uses, but hit harder, for heavy hitters) is that we can push some of the existing "generalist" glyphs into more niche territory.
Well, even if not in their ideal situations, the Grapple still gives Batman potentially better movement over a lot of height, and so improves his manoeuverability in a lot of situations (some more than others), and the Bat Shurkens still give him a ranged multi attack, if a weak one that's only really good against squaddies. I like the idea of more niche glyphs pushing present ones into more niche territory, though.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock View Post
So right now, IMO, Batman is pretty boring.
Eesh, not trying to make many friends, are you? I'd say this Batman is more dynamic than 90% of designs as is. I want to add more to him too, but "pretty boring"? Really?

Anyway, you're preaching to the choir in general, because the plan always was and always has been to add more to his glyph collection. I think a few of us are just putting up strong (and necessary) advisories about the things we need to carefully consider while doing so.

I know it's easy to want a Batman who's the baddest of the bad and can beat everyone always, but we do need to seriously make sure to avoid power creep here and resist the temptation to make him everything to everyone always.
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
I get what you are saying AS, what I am saying is be careful not to make 3 new bat-glyphs that become the new automatic 3 taken every time.
That's key, as is not doing anything that will bump his cost. He's very worth the 250 points as is, IMO.
He's never actually seemed worth 250 Points from my experience. Think about it: let's compare him with Batman vI. They have the exact same stats, and, if the Bat Grapple is picked, the exact same mobility. They both have a potential Batarang ranged multi-attack, with very few differences (the new one's can be boosted and interacts with powers differently as it's a normal attack and not a special attack (normal to special is sometimes good, sometimes bad when interacting with powers), but has a lower attack when not boosted). They have the same synergies. They have very similar dodge powers with the same rolls and only three differences; 1) the new one doesn't have a within 5 clear sight spaces requirement for the actual dodge; 2) the new one allows him to move 3 spaces if it's successful before determining if the opponent is close enough to get hit, and 3) a plus one modifier in shadow. The new one can then pick from a set of other glyphs, two of which are single use only (one of them knocking out your turn when you use it), and three of which are very, very niche. For these changes, you're paying 50 extra points. Most of the time, I'd rather draft the first one for 50 points less. Maybe I've just been playing him wrong, but I think that making the glyph pool a little more versatile would really help.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
It seems like any all-purpose glyphs should be weaker in most/all scenarios than the scenario-specific glyphs are in their scenarios.
Agreed. And that's an important point to keep in mind for any glyph we add. They should either be: a) a highly niche glyph or b) a general purpose glyph that is no more useful than any glyph he currently has (slightly less useful is OK - redundant is not).
Yes, what's always important when designing these glyphs is that at no point do you make Batman actually more powerful - just more versatile.


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Last edited by Lazy Orang; April 21st, 2014 at 10:03 AM.
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  #13818  
Old April 21st, 2014, 10:35 AM
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Re: Public Design Post

Cool stuff AS. Do not lose hope. Refine a couple of the Glyphs and have them ready for nomination. I am going to try to get a restricted bonus Public Design thread next time around. The only eligible nominations will be DOs(VDOs?) and Utility Glyphs.

Hopefully we all get to see some great new ideas.

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  #13819  
Old April 21st, 2014, 12:41 PM
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Re: Public Design Post

When I say he's strong for 250 points, I mean based on the extensive playtesting I did with him, nothing else.

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  #13820  
Old April 22nd, 2014, 08:23 AM
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Re: Public Design Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
When I say he's strong for 250 points, I mean based on the extensive playtesting I did with him, nothing else.
I disagree. He is probably my most used figure, but I never thought of him as powerful. I think he has the potential to be powerful for 250 points, but as-is, I think he is on-par with others of his level, but against certain units, he can be either really strong, or really vulnerable.
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  #13821  
Old April 22nd, 2014, 08:58 AM
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Re: Public Design Post

Sounds to me like he's playing as pretty balanced for his price as is, then, which is ideal. Hopefully we can keep adding options for Utility Glyphs without upsetting that balance.

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  #13822  
Old April 22nd, 2014, 08:59 AM
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Re: Public Design Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post

Judge Hershey

Human
Unique Hero
Judge
Selfless
Medium 4

Life: 4

Move: 5
Range: 7
Attack: 4
Defense: 5

Points: 180?

PSI-JUDGE RECRUITMENT
At the start of the game you may choose one Unique Telepath Hero you control that is a Human or Mutant to have the class of Judge in addition to Telepath.

LAWGIVER ARMOR PIERCING ROUND SPECIAL ATTACK
Range Special. Attack 7.
Reveal an X Order Marker on this card before using this Special Attack. Choose 7 spaces in a straight line from Hershey. All figures on those spaces are affected by this special attack. Roll attack once for all affected figures. Roll defense dice for the figure closest to Hershey. If that figure receives a wound, roll defense dice for the next closest figure. Continue rolling defense until no wounds are inflicted or all affected figures have rolled for defense.

CHIEF JUDGE'S ORDERS

After revealing a numbered Order Marker on this card, instead of taking a turn with Judge Hershey, you may either take a turn with any other Judge figure you control or move all Judge figures you control 5 spaces each.
Just had a thought on your Hershey design, Tornado. How about, to make Lawgiver Armour Piercing Round tie in better with other armour piercing powers, such as Punisher's Armour Piercing Rocket and War Machine's Armour Piercing Rocket Launcher, you drop the attack a bit and say that figures roll one fewer defence die for each skull rolled? Its more complex, I know, but that mechanic's always worked well for armour piercing, and I think it would be good to carry over.


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  #13823  
Old April 22nd, 2014, 09:05 AM
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Re: Public Design Post

For the batarangs, what I'm trying to figure out, is which of these would be the best approach:

1. They'd be a powerful attack that you could use once per round, then it's over
2. They'd have markers on the card (lots of hardware for a card that already has lots of hardware) and you'd remove one each time you used them, showing limited use.
3. You could only use them when you're already using the Bat Shurikens, so they'd really be an enhancement on that (sort of two glyphs to make one really powerful effect).

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Old April 22nd, 2014, 09:21 AM
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Re: Public Design Post

Not a bad idea L_O.
I am certainly open to any and all suggestions for Hershey.

I think my original intent was to make it different than Punisher. Streaky and I worked out that SA with the main focus being on the ability of the 'bullet' to pass through any figure it wounds, striking the figure behind it.

As I think about it more I like the idea of lowering defense on figures and lowering it even more against DOs. This would increase the chances of 'striking' a target hiding behind a DO.

Thanks for the input and refreshing Hershey in my mind. Ideally I would like to see Anderson go through first, so Hershey has been on the back burner for sometime.

The last thing I was contemplating about Hershey(I think that is an older version you posted, I must need to update the link) was changing Psi-Judge Recruitment. Certain Telepaths just do not feel right as Judges(Martian Manhunter, Phoenix, ect.). So I am considering using a point restriction. It has never been done before(that I know of) but I think there were no objections to the idea.
I was thinking Telepaths under 200 or 205.
This would exclude some of the weirder combos and leave some wiggle room for future Telepaths to get 'valued' in or out of the Psi-Judge range.

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