Heroscapers
Go Back   Heroscapers > Official Valhalla HeroScape > HeroScape General Discussion
HeroScape General Discussion General discussions of packaging, terrain, components, etc. If it doesn't fit in any other official category, put it here.

Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old April 15th, 2008, 10:55 PM
rdhight's Avatar
rdhight rdhight is offline
Embraces the Suck
 
Join Date: June 1, 2007
Location: crawling through holes.
Posts: 2,678
Images: 7
Blog Entries: 4
rdhight wears ripped pants of awesomeness rdhight wears ripped pants of awesomeness rdhight wears ripped pants of awesomeness rdhight wears ripped pants of awesomeness rdhight wears ripped pants of awesomeness rdhight wears ripped pants of awesomeness rdhight wears ripped pants of awesomeness
Beyond King of the Hill

I don't have a map display thread, so I'm not sure what my opinion is worth on this subject, but I got a couple of good responses to my reply in this thread and thought it was worth expanding.

1. Good maps should offer choices to the players. The harder the decisions, the better the map. A very common way to make your map's decisions far too easy is enabling "king of the hill," a gameplay effect where players just race to the highest hilltop and fight on it, and for it, until someone's army is wiped out. Ideally, a map should support multiple paths to victory (literally).

2. Use road; put it low. Putting road tiles only on levels 1 and 2, on a map that goes up to 5 or 6, can sometimes make people question whether to race for that hilltop. When players question whether or not to go for the height, even though the game gives them a built-in reward for doing so, it's a sign of a good map. If you don't have road or don't want to use it, you can always put ditches or walls/battlements near the bases of your hills to get a similar effect.

3. Use low, beneficial glyphs. I almost never put them above level 1. I use them to tempt people away from the mountaintops. Some people use face-down glyphs and glyphs with neutral or negative effects; to me, this defeats their purpose. In my maps, they're a reward for going low. I know some of you don't usually play with glyphs. You know what? I don't mind playing without them at all, myself. But having them taken out of my mapmaking toolbox would really hurt now that I've seen what they can do.

4. Encourage start-zone attacks. Cramped conditions, low start zones, and lots of road can lead to easy starting zone attacks. Sometimes sending one unit at a time to level 7 is a lot less important than evacuating the death-hole you start in and getting everyone to level 2 or 3 NOW. Now and then, I put swamp water puddles in the start zones, just to increase the pressure against sending out 20% of your army while the others chill on their starting spaces with no markers. The goal is for your players to think, "Well, I could march toward the top of this hill and attack with a height advantage later, but if I stay fairly low, I can attack with a height advantage right now."

5. If you do make a map where taking height is the main path to winning, at least make the players choose which height. If it's a two-player map, I don't like one hill in the center, or even one near each start zone. I usually put one near either long board edge, equidistant from the starting areas. Other times, I use four hilltops, two closer to me and two closer to my opponent. In multi-player maps, I generally put a hill or ridge exactly between each pair of start zones, so that no player has a natural fortress he's being steered toward in the early game. The question is no longer "Will I take height?" but "Which height will I take?"

6. Decrease the value of the height as a shooting position. I don't know if you've ever tried this, but it's fun to build a high area that's a single-hex pathway of good height wrapping around a big glacier or a thick bundle of trees. I can rush range to my side of the hilltop, but it will take still more walking before they can get around to where they can shoot down at you. And if they do, they may well go out of sight of my Raelin, Laglor, etc., unless the support also comes your way. And if I try to retreat, I may well end up not being able to shoot on my way back. Meanwhile, if you have a blocker on that single-hex pathway, I end up having to detour downslope if I want to avoid engagement. This can lead to some really challenging situations even after the height is occupied. (Even when you're not building a whole map around this idea, you can still do some good by placing ruins and trees well. When I'm looking for homes for LOS-blockers, what's running through my head is "How much can I hurt ranged figures parked on top of the best height?")

7. When you do play king-of-the-kill maps, use big armies... When it takes three to five order markers to move your whole army, which is common in strong 400- to 500-pointers, you can move toward height in a column or cluster. If you're taking six or more markers to move everyone, the question "Will I take height?" becomes less important, because I also have to think about "Who am I going to send there, and when?" When the tactics of moving in waves and bringing up reserves are forcing harder decisions, it's okay for the map to offer easier ones.

8. ...And big hills. When you make a map with one central height, don't just come to a point-- a little three- or five-hex peak that controls the whole map for miles around. Make your king-hill more like a mesa, and think of its top as a little map within the map, with its own obstacles and goals, forcing its own choices.

(By request, here is a link to Velenne's blog, a good mapmaking resource.)

Last edited by rdhight; June 6th, 2008 at 06:37 AM. Reason: linkage, cleanup
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old April 15th, 2008, 11:28 PM
Pygon's Avatar
Pygon Pygon is offline
 
Join Date: December 21, 2007
Location: Michigan - Flint (Fenton)
Posts: 578
Pygon knows what's in an order marker Pygon knows what's in an order marker
Re: Beyond King of the Hill

When I presented a few possible maps to play on, the other player commented in a way that agrees with what you're saying. Putting a single high area in the center just makes everyone race to that center and pound on each other until only one army remains, which makes for monotonous gameplay on that map. It hadn't even occurred to me, which surprised me, since I'm interested in video game design - and in that school it's near common knowledge that if there is only one best path to victory, then the game quickly becomes boring with repeated play.

I hope to learn more about the right formula for designing new maps and rework and improve the ones I've alrighty submitted.

Thanks rdhight, good post!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old April 15th, 2008, 11:32 PM
NecroBlade's Avatar
NecroBlade NecroBlade is offline
"our design team knows what it's doing"
 
Join Date: November 22, 2006
Location: KY - Louisville
Posts: 21,428
Images: 186
Blog Entries: 21
NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth
Re: Beyond King of the Hill



I would only add that you should not encourage starting zone attacks on the first turn of the game. I really dislike the idea of shooting someone before they have a chance to make any move at all, and hate to see maps designed that way (there's at least one in the BoV ).


Arena of the Valkyire - Help create Heroscape's next Master Set!
Trade List
C3V Brainstorm
never not funny
Pepperony - 14/09/13
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old April 15th, 2008, 11:41 PM
Jexik's Avatar
Jexik Jexik is offline
Et tu, Jaxet?
 
Join Date: July 4, 2007
Location: IL - Elgin
Posts: 7,050
Images: 3
Blog Entries: 31
Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth Jexik is a man of the cloth
Re: Beyond King of the Hill

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
I really dislike the idea of shooting someone before they have a chance to make any move at all, and hate to see maps designed that way (there's at least one in the BoV ).
Fire Isles has a ruin in the starting zone to hide important figures behind. With larger figures, you can put them back farther in the starting zone to avoid attacks, or way in the front to retaliate quickly. It's also one of the more fun and melee-equalizing maps around, and does a great job of slowing the race to the glyphs despite its small footprint. Some good players that I've spoken to like going second on the first round so they can see what the other guy does. Even on this map, getting hit first might be worth the knowledge of your opponent's first turn.

I did find in one game at a tournament with Ember Canyon Road that with Krav+Laglor, it's very easy to shoot across the gap at large figures in the starting zone. I wasn't a judge when that one was up for review.

Those are the only two with that issue that I can think of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old April 15th, 2008, 11:49 PM
NecroBlade's Avatar
NecroBlade NecroBlade is offline
"our design team knows what it's doing"
 
Join Date: November 22, 2006
Location: KY - Louisville
Posts: 21,428
Images: 186
Blog Entries: 21
NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth
Re: Beyond King of the Hill

Fire Isles is the one I was thinking of. Even with the ruins I don't like having to restrict the placement of my units at the start of the game (AE aside).


Arena of the Valkyire - Help create Heroscape's next Master Set!
Trade List
C3V Brainstorm
never not funny
Pepperony - 14/09/13
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old April 16th, 2008, 04:26 AM
Kroc's Avatar
Kroc Kroc is offline
Did you know that 5 exclamation points is a sign of insanity?
 
Join Date: July 27, 2007
Location: Ankara, Turkey
Posts: 1,747
Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla
Thumbs up Re: Beyond King of the Hill

rdhight, I was going to give you a rep bump for this post but they said I've already given you too many. Nuf said.

PS I've already designed a map specifically taking into consideration what you wrote in the original post. We'll see how it flys this weekend.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old April 17th, 2008, 12:55 PM
Cavalier's Avatar
Cavalier Cavalier is offline
Trainer of n00bs
 
Join Date: August 16, 2006
Location: AZ - PHX Metro (Mesa)
Posts: 10,844
Images: 176
Cavalier is a man of the cloth Cavalier is a man of the cloth Cavalier is a man of the cloth Cavalier is a man of the cloth Cavalier is a man of the cloth Cavalier is a man of the cloth Cavalier is a man of the cloth Cavalier is a man of the cloth Cavalier is a man of the cloth Cavalier is a man of the cloth Cavalier is a man of the cloth Cavalier is a man of the cloth Cavalier is a man of the cloth Cavalier is a man of the cloth Cavalier is a man of the cloth
Re: Beyond King of the Hill

These are great tips on map making. Thanks for your post!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old April 17th, 2008, 01:52 PM
1Mmirg's Avatar
1Mmirg 1Mmirg is offline
Adrian Monk
 
Join Date: November 9, 2006
Location: FL - Fort Lauderdale/Miami
Posts: 11,500
Images: 52
1Mmirg is a man of the cloth 1Mmirg is a man of the cloth 1Mmirg is a man of the cloth 1Mmirg is a man of the cloth 1Mmirg is a man of the cloth 1Mmirg is a man of the cloth 1Mmirg is a man of the cloth 1Mmirg is a man of the cloth 1Mmirg is a man of the cloth 1Mmirg is a man of the cloth 1Mmirg is a man of the cloth 1Mmirg is a man of the cloth 1Mmirg is a man of the cloth 1Mmirg is a man of the cloth 1Mmirg is a man of the cloth
Re: Beyond King of the Hill

Another excellent post, rdhight, thanks!

One thing I'll add is that it is okay to make maps with alternate victory conditions. These shouldn't be overdone and aren't part of the BoV from what I've seen, but a smart map that encourages really thoughtful, map-specific thinking and army building is a plus for me. (Maybe this is part of what you meant in point #1)

Of course, these kinds of maps are much harder to make, but when they work, they really work (and take us far beyond King of the Hill).

I'll also throw my two cents in on the glyphs. I do like seeing some used upside down or that risk a hit on a player. That can be part of the calculated challenge and the choice. Again, these need to be sparing, but a little glyph hunting can also work on a well constructed map.

Since I'm on glyphs, we played one map where the draft included a glyph draft. Two glyphs chosen in the reverse of the original unit drafting--the glyph locations were predetermined on the map, however--one near your location and one in the middle but a bit nearer to an opponent (this was a 1v1v1)--all positive glyphs with things like Def+2 taken out.

Anyhow, main point I'm making here, is not to feel like every map you make has to be a BoV-style ultra-balanced map--it is okay to make some that have interesting, unique features that require a thoughtful draft and some flexible game play (escorting a figure to a location, control of a game feature with a smaller army, etc.). Everyone has to go in knowing that the map is amateur and to just enjoy it if the balancing ends up not being dead-on.

Again, great post, rdhight.

<2 cents>

Last edited by 1Mmirg; April 17th, 2008 at 01:55 PM. Reason: small errors
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old April 17th, 2008, 09:55 PM
rdhight's Avatar
rdhight rdhight is offline
Embraces the Suck
 
Join Date: June 1, 2007
Location: crawling through holes.
Posts: 2,678
Images: 7
Blog Entries: 4
rdhight wears ripped pants of awesomeness rdhight wears ripped pants of awesomeness rdhight wears ripped pants of awesomeness rdhight wears ripped pants of awesomeness rdhight wears ripped pants of awesomeness rdhight wears ripped pants of awesomeness rdhight wears ripped pants of awesomeness
Re: Beyond King of the Hill

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Mmirg View Post
Anyhow, main point I'm making here, is not to feel like every map you make has to be a BoV-style ultra-balanced map--it is okay to make some that have interesting, unique features that require a thoughtful draft and some flexible game play (escorting a figure to a location, control of a game feature with a smaller army, etc.). Everyone has to go in knowing that the map is amateur and to just enjoy it if the balancing ends up not being dead-on.
Definitely. The first map my sister made was a really nice asymmetrical one for two players. One start zone was mostly on levels 5-6; the other was on levels 0-2. In the middle was a small tower that looked down on everything. The high start zone had ice making it tough to move out in a hurry; the low one had road connecting it to the tower.

If you put this map in the BoV, people would probably calculate the thing to death and come up with a proof that one start zone was strictly better. In reality, we played it a few times, and people won from each side, and we had a good time.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old May 15th, 2008, 09:20 PM
ganondorf557's Avatar
ganondorf557 ganondorf557 is offline
 
Join Date: October 28, 2007
Location: Bellevue, WA
Posts: 30
ganondorf557 has disabled reputation
Re: Beyond King of the Hill

Great ideas I will try them next time I get around to making a map.

Dwarves x3, Migol, Raelin (RotV), Krav Maga Agents. Can't wait till wave 9 is released!
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old May 15th, 2008, 09:55 PM
Soul Shackle's Avatar
Soul Shackle Soul Shackle is offline
 
Join Date: January 18, 2008
Location: NC - Fayetteville
Posts: 2,605
Images: 253
Blog Entries: 3
Soul Shackle wears ripped pants of awesomeness Soul Shackle wears ripped pants of awesomeness Soul Shackle wears ripped pants of awesomeness Soul Shackle wears ripped pants of awesomeness Soul Shackle wears ripped pants of awesomeness Soul Shackle wears ripped pants of awesomeness
Re: Beyond King of the Hill

Good stuff, as usual rdhight. I particularly like number 5 (or 6 if you don't count both 4's as 4's) and plan on trying something like that in a map soon. Thanks, and good thread - reminds me a bit of Velenne's threads, maybe a cross link would be nice...
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Heroscapers > Official Valhalla HeroScape > HeroScape General Discussion
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
WHICH DRAGON IS THE KING OF THE HILL? KrugChic Official Units 89 June 1st, 2008 06:29 PM
king story dra(gon) Other Games 1 November 1st, 2007 04:42 PM
A sketch of the dragon king King's Knight Fan Art & Fiction 12 June 26th, 2007 03:28 PM
New Card the Koopa King lacspider1 Custom Units & Army Cards 11 March 27th, 2007 02:59 AM
RichardD's 3/4/6 player King of the Hexagonal Hill RichardD Maps & Scenarios 9 August 20th, 2006 03:39 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:53 PM.

Heroscape background footer

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.