Public Design Workshop

[IAmBatman]

Robin usually dies well before Batman for me, so I'm not typically using the glyph until after Robin has fallen.

Batman needs things that come into play consistently, and have use in almost any game.

See that, I completely disagree with on a philosophical level. If he has a ton of such glyphs, it makes the current ones completely irrelevant. The whole point of his utility belt is that he has answers for a variety of situations. I think it's better when they're niche and we should add more to the niche situations he can cover.

Also, that's a good reason not to do more bat shurikens or batarangs - we don't want to make the current ones irrelevant. If you can have explosive ones, why would you ever want normal ones? Also, if you have both at the same time, what exactly does that do to your range and attack?

[Lord Pyre]

I usually plan for that and bring 2-3 Robins.

But yeah, Batman needs niche equipment. Prepared for anything.

If someone makes a shark repellant design, I will vote for it.

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Robin usually dies well before Batman for me, so I'm not typically using the glyph until after Robin has fallen.

See that, I completely disagree with on a philosophical level. If he has a ton of such glyphs, it makes the current ones completely irrelevant. The whole point of his utility belt is that he has answers for a variety of situations. I think it's better when they're niche and we should add more to the niche situations he can cover.

Also, that's a good reason not to do more bat shurikens or batarangs - we don't want to make the current ones irrelevant. If you can have explosive ones, why would you ever want normal ones? Also, if you have both at the same time, what exactly does that do to your range and attack?

If Batman is going up against the Avengers, Mutants, Green Lanterns, Yellow Lanterns, Outcasts, Outlaws, Legionnaires, Androids, Titans, Terrorists, Criminals, Simians, Undead, Asgardians, Creatures, Crime Fighters, Adventurers, or Telepaths etc. etc. Kryptonite Gauntlets just aren't going to do him any good. Not unless the Kryptonians are being played against him.

If Batman is playing on Alkali Lake, Crash Landing, Country Road, Green Lantern Mogo, Grundy's Grave, Icy Road Map, Muspelheim Melee, Ravaged Road, Rocket Launching Platform, Sacred Shrine, Sewer Labyrinth, or Swamp Lab etc. etc. and Dr. MN and Obsidian aren't in the game(2 of over 500 figures), he's not going to have any use for the Goggles.

If Batman isn't playing with: Bishop, Commissioner Gordon, Jonnah Hex, Lieutenant Stone, Code: Blue Officer, S.W.A.T. Assaulter, S.W.A.T. Explosives Expert, S.W.A.T. Rifleman, 5th Precinct Beat Cops, Bad Cops, Hawkmen of Thanagar, or Science Police(12 of over 500 figures). He won't have any use from his radio, at all. That glyph will only be a good option in 2% of the given figures to choose from.

I have absolutely no issue with those utilities as an option. That's not my point at all. The more options the better, IMO, as that represents who Batman is. He has something for any given scenario. However, there's certain utilities that are used quite often in the comics, movies, games, cartoons, that need to be represented here. Things that will come in handy on almost any map, up against almost any opponent. Things like the Grapnel Gun, Shurikens, and Smoke Pellet. Just like Ultrasonic Bat Beacon, Tracer/Tracker, Thermite Grenade, Gas Pellet, Bolas, Explosive Gel, and Line Launcher. Where as Cryptographic Sequencer, a bit more niche along the lines of the Gauntlets, I love and want represented as well, but these other utilities deserve to be made. They won't make anything "irrelevant". The niche things will be relevant in those specific scenarios and setups. He needs his utilities that fit more consistent scenarios he'll be playing in.

[Lazy Orang]

I'm far from a Batman fan, but I can sort of see AG's point - I think Batman could use a few extra glyphs with a more general use, though not too many, and not too powerful. He just doesn't feel useful or versatile at present - it would be cool if he could plan for subtle differences in the terrain and armies rather than really simple 'my opponent has Superman so I'm packing the Kryptonite Gauntlets' counterdrafts, though maybe one or two of those are alright. The explosive batarangs I can see the point of, as I have seen him use them numerous times in the Justice League cartoons - I'd consider making it one attack and upping the attack by one, though, to make it more distinct from the regular Bat Shurikens (why exactly does Batman hate guns but exploding Batarangs are fine? Seems like a really weird distinction - I maintain he's a psycho).

Personally, I like the idea of Batman version II being designed as a jack of all trades but a master of none - he can turn his hand to most things, and be pretty good at it, but a lot of the time someone else will be able to do better at something specific. That would fit Batman pretty well from what I've seen, IMO.

[Yodaking]

I like the idea of having more options but at the same time would not want to see 3 must have glyphs created, where those are the only ones ever used. If the new glyphs are more specific/situational counters like the Gloves & Goggles then I think they would be a fantastic addition.

Think of how it would work for a competitive/tournament environment. You bring Batman II as part of your army along with 10 different glyphs. At the start of each of your 4-5 games, you look over your opponents army and the map you were assigned and pick out the 3 you want to use for that 1 game. Over the course of those 4-5 games you might end up using 7-8 different glyphs as a result. Then you really get the Batman gadget theme down.

You also have to remember that their is an issue of balance with all the new glyphs. You make a new glyph too good and suddenly Batman II is worth more than 250 points.

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

I like the idea of having more options but at the same time would not want to see 3 must have glyphs created, where those are the only ones ever used. If the new glyphs are more specific/situational counters like the Gloves & Goggles then I think they would be a fantastic addition.

I disagree. I don't think it's necessary to make everything so niche like the Gloves and Goggles. Why can't we have more like Shuriken, Pellet, and Grapnel?

You don't want 3 that stand out so much that there's no reason to pick any others, but as it stands, that's what you essentially have with those 3. Right now, unless you are playing a specific scenario fitting the niche that those others are designed for, I wouldn't pick anything other than Shurikens, Grapnel, and Pellet. You can toss in First Aid in that mix if you are someone that finds it useful.

So right now, IMO, Batman is pretty boring. I don't see a sense of variety. If I'm not going up against Kryptonians, Lawmen, or dealing with Shadow/Jungle pieces, which is quite common that none of those things are present...I'm picking the same 3-4 every time. Because there's no reason to pick niche glyphs if the properties they are good against aren't present.

Any Scenario:
Shurikens
First Aid
Grapnel
Smoke Pellet

Very Specific Scenario:
Kryptonite Gauntlets
Goggles
Radio

However, if you offer more on the level of the Shurikens, Grapnel, First Aid, and the Pellet....you've got yourself some options.

Any Scenario:
Shurikens
First Aid
Grapnel
Smoke Pellet
+Ultrasonic Beacon
+Tracer/Tracker
+Thermite Grenade
+Line Launcher
+Explosive Gel
+Bolas

Very Specific Scenario:
Kryptonite Gauntlets (Kryptonians)
Goggles (Shadow or Jungle)
Radio (Lawmen)
+Cryptographic Sequencer (Androids or Cyborgs)

Now what are you going to pick? Out of the any scenario category, you've got several options, all on equal helpfulness. So it's not going to be the same 3-4 every time. I'd pick any in that category(save for the first aid, as I've mentioned), based on what I thought was going to help me most in that specific game.

You could go:

Spoiler Alert!

-Grapnel
-Shurikens
-Ultrasonic Beacon

Benefits = Climbing, Range, LE/Auto-wounds

-Bolas
-Tracer/Tracker
-Smoke Pellet

Benefits = Movement prevention, Extra Movement + Order Marker Peak, Evasion

-Explosive Gel
-Shuriken
-Thermite Grenade

Benefits = Offensive Force

The thing is, none of these outweigh the usefulness of the more niche utilities when their given scenarios are present. If Kryptonians are present, you are going to want to pick the gauntlets, even with all these new additions. In fact, it opens up some great possibilities to make those glyphs better. Kryptonian Gauntlets, Bolas(keep them locked down), and Smoke Pellet, give Batman a fighting chance. So by adding more glyphs to add to his options for every game that doesn't fit one of the couple of niche utilities, certainly doesn't take away from their effectiveness.

I feel like this is a necessary direction to take, if we are wanting Batman to be like Batman. Right now, you're sitting with the same 3-4 draftable glyphs on any game without his niche utilities being usable. Which is A LOT of the time.

[Lazy Orang]

I pretty much agree with AG's view on it - though I think some of his Glyphs at present are just a bit too good (Bolas is too potent and likely, same with Cryptographic Sequencer, Remote Controlled Batarang and Explosive Batarang should be changed to one attack so they don't outshine Bat Shurikens etc.), I think Batman needs a few more generally useful glyphs to make the choice for the Utility Belt, which seems the primary theme of the design, actually a choice a lot of the time.

[Arkham]

Just ask yourself this, take the little quiz here:

Spoiler Alert!

Map:Country Road
Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman
vs.
Fantastic Four

What 3 utilities do you pick?
1.
2.
3.

Map:Green Lantern Mogo
Batman, Hal Jordan, Jon Stewart, Kilowog
vs.
Yellow Lanterns

What 3 utilities do you pick?
1.
2.
3.

Map:Sewer Labyrinth
Batman, Grundy, Judge Death, Kirigi
vs.
X-men

What 3 utilities do you pick?
1.
2.
3.

Map:Alkali Lake
Batman, Punisher, Spider-Man, Daredevil, Robin
vs.
Joker, Harley, Two-Face, Penguin, Killer Croc

What 3 utilities do you pick?
1.
2.
3.

Map:Icy Road
Batman, Nightwing, Cyborg, Starfire, Red Robin, Raven
vs.
Frankenstein, Lizard, Hulk, Abomination

What 3 utilities do you pick?
1.
2.
3.

Map:Swamp Lab
Batman, Flash(BA), Flash(WW), Robin, Hawkman, Hawkgirl
vs.
Asgardians

What 3 utilities do you pick?
1.
2.
3.

Map:Grundy's Grave
Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Hal Jordan, Martian Manhunter, Aquaman, The Flash, Hawkman
vs.
Captain America, Iron Man, The Hulk, Thor, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Ms. Marvel, Wasp II, She-Hulk, Iron Fist

What 3 utilities do you pick?
1.
2.
3.

Map:Poison Ivy's Greenhouse
Batman & Lawmen
vs.
Kryptonians

What 3 utilities do you pick?
1.
2.
3.

Does this help anyone understand why we need more utilities like Grapnel, Shuriken, First Aid, and Smoke Pellet? If on the first 7 choices you listed only those 4 utilities, that's for a reason. If on the last choice, you listed 2+ of the niche utilities, that's for a reason. The niche ones will ALWAYS be the best in their given scenario that calls for it. However, in all the other games where they don't, right now, we have the same 3-4 utilities to choose from.

[Ronin]

Personally, I'd rather see more niche glyphs than more general-use ones. That would require a higher number of glyphs in order to get Batman really versatile than the general-use route would, but I think it would be more interesting and fitting overall.

That said...

1. A couple more general-use glyphs would still be nice, even if I would rather see the balance swing in favor of the niche designs.
2. It's for public design, so whatever we get will be driven by what the community wants. Can't hurt to get the ideas out there.

For some more specific discussion, I'm with johnny on the Cryptographic Sequencer. It feels unthematically powerful for something Batman usually uses to break locks, and also a bit too much for a Utility Glyph. It definitely needs a restriction to stop it from working on Event Heroes; I'd rather not see Batman single-handedly defeat Master Mold.

[cwidje]

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

Gas Pellet:

Spoiler Alert!

GLYPH OF UTILITY: Gas Pellet

EQUIPMENT GLYPH
Instead of attacking normally, you may choose to destroy this glyph. Choose a space within 3 spaces of this figure. Roll 1 unblockable attack die on any figure on that space, and all adjacent figures to that space. Any figure that takes a wound due to this glyph, you may remove 1 unrevealed order marker from their card. Figures with the Environmental Suit special power are not affected by Gas Pellet.

Wouldn't it be less murdery (& thus, more Batmany) if it was just a knockout gas?

EQUIPMENT GLYPH
Instead of attacking normally, you may choose to destroy this glyph. Choose a space within 3 spaces of this figure. Roll 1 unblockable attack die on any figure on that space, and all adjacent figures to that space. For any figure that a skull was rolled against, you may remove 1 unrevealed order marker from their card. Figures with the Environmental Suit special power are not affected by Gas Pellet.

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by cwidje

Wouldn't it be less murdery (& thus, more Batmany) if it was just a knockout gas?

Even though the goal of Heroscape is to destroy your opponents, which Batman wouldn't do to begin with, so it's all a bit off to begin with...it's a fair point. I can dig that change.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

Just ask yourself this, take the little quiz here:

Spoiler Alert!

Map:Country Road
Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman
vs.
Fantastic Four

What 3 utilities do you pick?
1. Bat Shurikens
2. Bat-Grapple
3. Med Kit

Map:Green Lantern Mogo
Batman, Hal Jordan, Jon Stewart, Kilowog
vs.
Yellow Lanterns

What 3 utilities do you pick?
1. Bat-Grapple
2. Med Kit
3. Smoke Pellets

Map:Sewer Labyrinth
Batman, Grundy, Judge Death, Kirigi
vs.
X-men

What 3 utilities do you pick?
1. Bat Shurikens
2. Bat-Grapple
3. Smoke Pellets

Map:Alkali Lake
Batman, Punisher, Spider-Man, Daredevil, Robin
vs.
Joker, Harley, Two-Face, Penguin, Killer Croc

What 3 utilities do you pick?
1. Bat Shurikens
2. Bat-Grapple
3. Med Kit


Map:Icy Road
Batman, Nightwing, Cyborg, Starfire, Red Robin, Raven
vs.
Frankenstein, Lizard, Hulk, Abomination

What 3 utilities do you pick?
1. Bat Shurikens
2. Bat Grapple
3. Med Kit

Map:Swamp Lab
Batman, Flash(BA), Flash(WW), Robin, Hawkman, Hawkgirl
vs.
Asgardians

What 3 utilities do you pick?
1. Bat Shurikens
2. Bat Grapple
3. Med Kit

Map:Grundy's Grave
Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Hal Jordan, Martian Manhunter, Aquaman, The Flash, Hawkman
vs.
Captain America, Iron Man, The Hulk, Thor, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Ms. Marvel, Wasp II, She-Hulk, Iron Fist

What 3 utilities do you pick?
1. Bat Shurikens
2. Bat Grapple
3. Med Kit or Smoke Pellets

Map:Poison Ivy's Greenhouse
Batman & Lawmen
vs.
Kryptonians

What 3 utilities do you pick?
1. Kryptonite Gauntlets
2. Police Scanner
3. Bat Grapple

Does this help anyone understand why we need more utilities like Grapnel, Shuriken, First Aid, and Smoke Pellet? If on the first 7 choices you listed only those 4 utilities, that's for a reason. If on the last choice, you listed 2+ of the niche utilities, that's for a reason. The niche ones will ALWAYS be the best in their given scenario that calls for it. However, in all the other games where they don't, right now, we have the same 3-4 utilities to choose from.

Answers in red. Basically, I'll always pick Bat Grapple and Bat Shurikens except in multiple niche situation or if I'm facing fast, ranged, tough flyers, when I'll remove the Shurikens. I'll then use the Smoke Pellets if going up against a lot of range or Med Kit if going up against only melee or only low powered range, or, if it's a niche situation, a niche glyph.

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

Even though the goal of Heroscape is to destroy your opponents, which Batman wouldn't do to begin with, so it's all a bit off to begin with...it's a fair point. I can dig that change.

Destroyed isn't necessarily killed - it could just mean brutalised to the point that you aren't getting up any time soon.