HeroScape is coming back!

[IAmBatman]

It really is such fertile space for creative design

[nyys]

Not at fan of using Keywords for Flying and Stealth flying. I feel like all the empty space on the card where there text would go will encourage more 4 power figures (since now there's space), could cause power creep.

Maybe I'm more concerned about the playability (of these yet non existent units) with old units. With this being a 'restart' it may not be an issue with units going forward.

[IAmBatman]

More complexity =/= more power. Now if you're worried about complexity creep, that's something else.

[Grungebob]

Originally Posted by nyys

Not at fan of using Keywords for Flying and Stealth flying. I feel like all the empty space on the card where there text would go will encourage more 4 power figures (since now there's space), could cause power creep.

Maybe I'm more concerned about the playability (of these yet non existent units) with old units. With this being a 'restart' it may not be an issue with units going forward.

Practicing restraint when designing is an important discipline. If a designer has the right tools though, it makes this task easier. Cluttering up a card with a common ability like flying actually makes the card itself more difficult to decode.

[Owlman]

Originally Posted by nyys

Not at fan of using Keywords for Flying and Stealth flying. I feel like all the empty space on the card where there text would go will encourage more 4 power figures (since now there's space), could cause power creep.

Maybe I'm more concerned about the playability (of these yet non existent units) with old units. With this being a 'restart' it may not be an issue with units going forward.

I disagree, it'll be fine I think. Practically every Scaper out there knows what those are, it's very simple to look it up in the rulebook. Plus I want to see more powers anyways.

Yes power creep is always possible and should be avoided, but I'd argue that ship has sailed with C3V. I know i'll ruffle feathers here, but IMO I've examined nearly every single C3V unit at this point, and the majority are all under priced by at least 15-20 points IMO. So if C3V units are allowed at GenCon (please God NO...) then there's your power creep.

Just my opinion, if anyone wants to disagree feel free of course, I love a good discussion/debate

[IAmBatman]

How many C3V units have you played? It's a bold claim you're making here based on "examining."

[wriggz]

Not the place to have this discussion, but damn I don't think I've read something I disagree with more. Other than a few outliers I'm surprised how tight most of classic and C3V pricing is. I think it is a function of order makers and the average number of dice rolled per attack. I'm expecting AoA to be more the same.

My eternal worry is complex creep. I like the simplicity of Heroscape and how quickly I can understand what each card does. While I love C3g And the complexity there or playing games like unmatched I come back to scape when I want to focus more on the board and less on the cards.

[Tornado]

Have to agree there as an outside observer but someone who played a ton of classic Heroscape. There is nothing close to unbalanced as top end cards in classic.
I would be absolutely stunned if Renegade ever allows customs at their events.

[Tornado]

The complexity is palatable.

[Matt Helm]

Originally Posted by Grungebob

Practicing restraint when designing is an important discipline. If a designer has the right tools though, it makes this task easier. Cluttering up a card with a common ability like flying actually makes the card itself more difficult to decode.

I lean toward nyys on this issue. In my personal bubble, I'm an old man who plays scape with family members that are not traditional gamers. We like to read a card once and pretty much understand what the figure does without having to go back to it too often. So the limited space created by spelling out Flying helps ensure the complexity on the powers is kept down. I do understand that this potentially limits creativity and variance but I'm personally OK with that.

I think that Flying (and Stealth Flying even more so) is one of the most powerful abilities a figure can have. By listing just the title or replacing it with a symbol you do potentially increase the complexity potential of the other powers which gives the potential for more power creep if the designers are not careful. I think about cards that have less powerful Flying substitutes like Leap which still needs to be spelled out. When designing two cards, one with Flying and one with Leap, the Flyer, who is already starting from a more powerful spot, now has significantly more space to add complexity in their other powers. And like it or not, while complexity =/= more power, it certainly could lead to it.

With all of that said, I do agree with Grungebob that the key is designer restraint regardless of the size of the canvas. Here's hoping the new designers can understand that.

[wriggz]

Originally Posted by Tornado

The complexity is palatable.

I fully recognize that the world of board games and the market for Heroscape has matured. Complexity is almost a badge of honor nowadays, but give me Krav and Syvarris who do a great job representing matrix agents and legolas respectively.

[Grungebob]

Originally Posted by Matt Helm

I lean toward nyys on this issue. In my personal bubble, I'm an old man who plays scape with family members that are not traditional gamers. We like to read a card once and pretty much understand what the figure does without having to go back to it too often. So the limited space created by spelling out Flying helps ensure the complexity on the powers is kept down. I do understand that this potentially limits creativity and variance but I'm personally OK with that.

I think that Flying (and Stealth Flying even more so) is one of the most powerful abilities a figure can have. By listing just the title or replacing it with a symbol you do potentially increase the complexity potential of the other powers which gives the potential for more power creep if the designers are not careful. I think about cards that have less powerful Flying substitutes like Leap which still needs to be spelled out. When designing two cards, one with Flying and one with Leap, the Flyer, who is already starting from a more powerful spot, now has significantly more space to add complexity in their other powers. And like it or not, while complexity =/= more power, it certainly could lead to it.

With all of that said, I do agree with Grungebob that the key is designer restraint regardless of the size of the canvas. Here's hoping the new designers can understand that.

I’ll give you a hypothetical situation. Let’s say you want to design a Star Wars mod that includes a variety of Jedi. There are 3 basic card hogging abilities that all Jedi have. Force Leap, Lightsaber Deflect, Force Lift.

You can’t even fit those on the card, much less add thematic abilities that make each Jedi unique. There are only 2 solutions to this:

1- Create Jedi with stats that emulate power, but have no real thematic nature and then add a couple of unique abilities to make the Jedi seem thematic.

2- Have set Jedi skills that all Jedi have some combination of and are represented by icons on the card, then allow only 1 or 2 unique abilities that capture that Jedi’s unique battlefield effect.

This was the challenge with Marvel.