Race for the presidency political discussion thread

[MattMan5]

Though i am a Canadien I follow many american polticial elections and if i could vote down in the U.s i would vote Mr.Barrack Obama because on the Rick Mercer Report(Canadien Comedy News Show)They were asking Americans about Canada and americans knowing nothing about us and even MIke Huckabee said congratulations Mr.Poutine on becomeing the Prime-Minister though our Prime-MInister is Steven Harper and poutine are french fries with gravy and cheese lol

[Browncoat]

Originally Posted by Agent Minivann

It isn't what you say that makes me use terms like militant, but how you say it. Your posts would be perfectly appropriate for a Rush Limbaugh fan club forum, but in a diverse group they are rather abrasive. Telling people they are basically duped by the liberal media doesn't help either. I'm just saying consider tone and audience. If you're ever going to convince someone that the water's nice, you're not going to do it the way you've been posting. I'm not saying that you really are a fringe kook whatever, just that the way you are posting makes you come across that way.

And here we have the heart of the matter.

I am holding true to my conservative roots. I do not ever, in any situation, attempt to be politically correct. The liberals have turned this country into a playground for the weak and timid. Where you can't speak out loud in certain company because someone might be offended and raise a frivilous lawsuit. A country where you can't put up a Nativity scene for risk of oppressing other religions. Where you can't post your own views because they may not be shared by others, or be considered abrasive.

Getting this thread back on track...the above reasons are why I would never vote for John McCain. At best, he is a moderate, but more like a wolf in sheep's clothing. He wants to be viewed as a conservative, and there has been a movement within the media during this election cycle to redefine conservatism. It is nothing but an attempt to destroy our core values and fit us into a mold formed in the likeness of liberals. McCain is conforming, because he believes it will further his campaign. Instead, he has alienated himself from the conservative base, which he knows he needs to win this election.

If liberals have a choice of a pure liberal, or a moderate like McCain, they're going to vote for their own side. The absolute truth is, in every election except this one, I have voted for the candidate I felt was best suited for the job. However, this election has been unique on many fronts, and for the first time, there is NO candidate I support...and many conservatives have felt the same way, according to reports. This is the primary, not the general election. Therefore, I have no problem voting for the other side in order to put my side in a better position later.

Liberalism must be defeated, not pandered to. I don't believe in keeping the other side of the political arguement alive just for the sake of "balance".

[skyknight]

I do agree that thte choices are few and far between this time. Not a good year to be a Conservative really. Salute the Newt in 08 Man I wish that was the case.

[SmoG]

A country where you can't put up a Nativity scene for risk of oppressing other religions. Where you can't post your own views because they may not be shared by others, or be considered abrasive.

Hear Hear!

I couldn't agree with you more! I mean, just this last Christmas I couldn't believe how many Nativity Scenes put up on people's own personal lawns were torn down by angry atheist, Jewish, Islamic, and Bhuddist mobs! Can you believe that in some countries, The government is criticized for making women wear the garments mandated by God, or for enforcing the Lord's law for female vehicular operation? Hasn't the wacky UN heard of Freedom? I mean, this one brave leader actually had the guts to drive all the homosexuals out of his country! I only wish our own government would wise up. When will America wake up! The freedom we enjoy is being threatened by activist judges who can't get it through their thick skulls that we are a CHRISTIAN nation and that only by CHRISTIAN values will our freedom be restored.

I thank Jesus every day that I get to live in a nation that takes freedom seriously enough to: Spy on it's citizens without those pesky warrants; Detain and enhancedly interrogate enemy combatants from that-country-we-are-at-war-with-istan without needing to worry about "the fourth dumb-mendment" or "habeus Shmabeus corpus"; Declare war on an ideal, rather than a place; declare anyone seditious without entangling "cause" or "evidence." I am so glad we have the freedom not to disobey.

If those Dumb-ocrats get elected, I am scared. I predict within 4 years we will have pulled out of Iraq without the Iraqi's being ready for us to stop holding their hand. I predict we will have hitlery-care forced on us and instead of having the privelege to pay ever climbing premiums, I'll have some more damn taxes taken out of MY MONEY! I predict that the 10 millions CRIMINAL immigrants will be granted free citizenship and the Mexico border will be open to all newcomers. I predict that the wealthy-elite of america will have to give up their summer houses, and then, after being taxed to death, their very death will be taxed! I predict that the lazy and worthless citizens, you know the ones who can't get off the street and into a house, the mentally disabled, the lazy homeless and disabled veterans will be given a FREE RIDE into government subsidized housing, jobs, and treatment!

DON'T LET IT HAPPEN!

[Browncoat]

I love it when liberals attempt sarcasm. Oh, the irony.

Honestly, I could care less about Nativity scenes. I could care less if you worship a Christian god, buddha, a cow, or have no religion at all. The point is, in America, you have the right to worship whatever you want, or not at all. Apparently now, in today's politically correct society, you have even more of a right to whine about what someone else does. By celebrating your own faith and putting some decorations on your lawn, you are somehow oppressing other religions...and we can't have that now can we? Let's try some conservative sarcasm, to counter your points:

US citizens were only wiretapped if they were talking with suspected terrorists. However, if you feel you might have been spied on, feel free to join the class action lawsuit. It will pay the trial lawyers millions, and you may see a few thousand after you pay the capital gains tax imposed by the Democrats. Then again, that will be offset by the additional prices the phone companies will have to charge in premiums to counter the lawsuit. Your call.

The war is against terrorism, which takes place on many fronts. It is not a country, it is not a city, it is an ideal. That ideal happens to be located in Iraq right now. Where those pesky terrorists are trying to take over a nation in turmoil. But, we should leave now I suppose. That way all those homeless terrorists finally have a place to hang their hats. And they'll be rich too! They can fund their attacks on us by selling us oil, since thanks to the Democrats, we can't supply any of our own. I do feel sorry for the terrorists we capture though. Pouring water on their face is horrible! We should behead them on tv or stone them to death instead, that's more along the lines of what they're used to.

Healthcare is NOT a right, it's a privelege. But I agree with you. People should be allowed to buy big screen televisions and buy 5 cell phones instead of providing health insurance for their families. We should let the government take over healthcare, that way we can afford the things we really need. And just think of how great it would be, too! The government has done such a great job of running things like social security, the tax system, and keeping prices low. And the government will pay for it all without raising our taxes too!

We should all band together and show those wealthy elite a thing or two! Let's all quit our jobs and go out job hunting together. We'll go ask poor people for a job! After all, they're always a great resource for hiring people, and are the models of motivation and hard work. Just look at them! Being poor is so difficult these days. What with those wealthy elite bearing the load of most of the country and providing all those subsidized programs and handouts, being truly poor is next to impossible in this country. So join me in my quest, dear Americans. Stop working for those corporate warmongers who pay for your healthcare and 401(k) programs, most of your tax burden, and still manage to provide a job for you. Let's cruise the streets together and get jobs from poor people!

[dragonfire]

^^^^Right wing nut job^^^^^

Anyway, I want Obama to win. I think it will be Obama vs Mccain. And I think that although Mccains an evil republican, he isnt very evil, and could be a good president also. But I think we need Obama, who will bring forth change.

[guido]

Originally Posted by dragonfire

^^^^Right wing nut job^^^^^

Anyway, I want Obama to win. I think it will be Obama vs Mccain. And I think that although Mccains an evil republican, he isnt very evil, and could be a good president also. But I think we need Obama, who will bring forth change.

After all, Democrats like Obama are all about change.

[SmoG]

Ok, then let's put sarcasm aside for a while.

Browncoat, from the beginning, it seems, you have been the central figure in this thread. The funny thing is I can't decide whether you are serious or not. Sometimes you sound rational, but more often you sound like a caricature. Not as obvious as say, Stephen Colbert, but I am starting to think you are merely portraying a character to keep this debate interesting.

First I would like to address this whole "Political Correctness" you keep bringing up. I see no evidence of it. There is validity in taking the 10 commandments off a courthouse lawn, or in a Store changing its private policy to saying "Happy Holidays" instead of Merry Christmas or even to say Merry Christmas only, it's their prerogative. As you say, in America, we can worship how we want, but Religion (Not ethics, mind you, but Religion) has no place in governmental procedure.

Second-of-ly: Wiretapping. You say that "US citizens were only wiretapped if they were talking with suspected terrorists” Ok... but how does the NSA know that someone is talking to a suspected terrorist without wiretapping them? Let's take it a step further, what constitutes a suspected terrorist? The main problem I have with this program is the shadows that it hides in. If you let the police make the laws then you get a police state. I am almost positive it works the other way around, they wire tap randomly and decide after the fact if it was justified, the program certainly allows for this kind of behavior. Also "If you don't like it, sue" is one of the mentalities you are against.... but whatever.

You can't win a war against terrorism. Does that mean we shouldn't fight it... no. But it also means we shouldn't set up false hope. Let's talk about Iraq for a second. The administration used the war on terror to justify this war. They have since said that there was no link to Al Qaeda from Iraq or Saddam. This war had nothing to do with the war on terror initially. You are right, though, now. It is a front on the War on Terror. This is a fact conveniently forgotten when people claim "there hasn't been a terrorist attack against the US since 911" 3000+ dead soldiers don't seem to count then, I guess. I personally, while an Obama supporter, do not believe we can leave Iraq any time soon, unless the Iraqi government there gets their act together. PS. "pouring water on their face" as you so cleverly put it IS torture; it was deemed that not by me, nor by the democrats, but by the United States military and government when it was used on our troops in World War 2. But when we use it it's ok, I guess?

Healthcare is a right, if you don't believe that then I can't even argue with you here. It's covered in the DoI under "Life." Does that mean elective surgery, etc is a god given entitlement...no.

I've never understood this notion that the rich deserve better because they create the jobs and benefits, I thought we lost that way of thinking with the Magna Carta. But if you want to farm corn for your feudal lord, go ahead. I think that an executive that does his job well should be paid well, but he shouldn't get a 7 million dollar bonus while the workers’ Health Insurance rates double and their 401k is changed so that company contributions go away if you leave the company before 30 years. And why the hell is it ok for these people to not be taxed on income they didn't do anything to earn?

I agree with the idea that personal responsibility should be our #1 priority, but there are some things that just can't be handled that way. Health Care is one of them, and if you think poverty in this country is an illusion, you are more deluded than the villain of a Scooby-Doo episode.

[Euryon]

Wasn't segregation a "conservative ideal" about 50 years ago?

Wouldn't "gun-totin', right-wing, original constitutional intent, pro-America, anti-big government, conservative, segregationist" be a typical right-wing list of beliefs that would be considered as controversial as pro-life is now?

However, I am not saying these qualities are bad or wrong - I'm not in favour of big government myself, I happily applaud the right to own guns [I'd just make bullets illegal], conservatism is a useful ideology, and the constitution should at least be seen as a model and guide, if not a doctrine.

I just think Conservatism/Right-wing views play too much on traditionalism and are not open for evolution and change.

Whilst the Right has its share of fascists, religious fundamentalists, and ignorant madmen, the Left contains a fringe of totalitarians, the economically blind, cowards and fools.

Finding a place in government where the policies of both ideals can meet is surely better than trouncing over a sizeable portion of the populations desire for their own government.

If the Dems. win, then I don't think "Liberal" ideals should forcibly be invoked on the whole country, likewise Conservative value's shouldn't be forced on the whole lot. Frankly, the USA is too darned big, and could do with devolution - heck, California would be one of the 10 biggest economies in the world right now if it split from the US.

It won't happen though. Too many thoughts.

[skyknight]

Originally Posted by SmoG

I've never understood this notion that the rich deserve better because they create the jobs and benefits, I thought we lost that way of thinking with the Magna Carta. But if you want to farm corn for your feudal lord, go ahead. I think that an executive that does his job well should be paid well, but he shouldn't get a 7 million dollar bonus while the workers’ Health Insurance rates double and their 401k is changed so that company contributions go away if you leave the company before 30 years. And why the hell is it ok for these people to not be taxed on income they didn't do anything to earn?

Well you finally did it, I have been just adding little comments here and there but this kind of comment irks me beyond belief. I hate self entitled folks who think they have some kind of right to other peoples money or dictate what they should make when they have all of the same oppurtunities most CEO's have but have neither the drive, intelligence, or motivation it takes to get to that position. And to say CEO's do not do anything for their money is crud, it is not an easy job at all....and on top of that my 401K is directly tied into wheter or not they can do a good job since I am diversified all across the market.

I will also say this...if you have ever turned on one Baseball game or ever attended one sporting event on a proffesional level you are a hypocrite pure and true for lining athletes pockets. If you have ever read any Potter stuff, bought anything, or watched the movie you are a hypocrite because she is a Billionaire. I noticed you were typing on a computer as well....hypocrite again, Bill gates is a multi Billionaire and you are supporting him. But to be honest he deserves his money....he was bright enough and had a vision and had the motivation to drive it forward.

You say CEO's have no right to make millions...I say why some guy who has no ambition beyond his own living room deserves one penny of what others make is beyond me. You have no right to dictate what others make. I say get off your backside and quit trying to take what is obviously not yours. If you want decent healthcare then work hard, educate yourself at every oppurtunity and quit whining about what others have and you do not. It just makes you seem envious and lazy.

[SmoG]

I will also say this...if you have ever turned on one Baseball game or ever attended one sporting event on a proffesional level you are a hypocrite pure and true for lining athletes pockets. If you have ever read any Potter stuff, bought anything, or watched the movie you are a hypocrite because she is a Billionaire. I noticed you were typing on a computer as well....hypocrite again, Bill gates is a multi Billionaire and you are supporting him. But to be honest he deserves his money....he was bright enough and had a vision and had the motivation to drive it forward.

What? I don't understand what you're saying here. Are you saying that One athlete on a team is 100% responsible for the success of that team? Or that the CEO of a company is 100% responsible for every product and service and profit that that company produces? Or that every artist is 100% responsible for the art he/she produces (well maybe painters)? Or are you implying that I do not credit these people appropriately? Your examples are ridiculous.

Like I said, if a person does a good job, they should be paid well. What I also said is that if a company is doing well, but at the expense of it's employees' salaries or benefits, the CEO should not be rewarded.

I hate self entitled folks who think they have some kind of right to other peoples money or dictate what they should make when they have all of the same oppurtunities most CEO's have but have neither the drive, intelligence, or motivation it takes to get to that position. And to say CEO's do not do anything for their money is crud, it is not an easy job at all

If everyone has the same opportunities, either there are a ton of dumb lazy people in the world or there would be a lot more CEOs

I never said that

I say why some guy who has no ambition beyond his own living room deserves one penny of what others make is beyond me. You have no right to dictate what others make. I say get off your backside and quit trying to take what is obviously not yours. If you want decent healthcare then work hard, educate yourself at every oppurtunity and quit whining about what others have and you do not. It just makes you seem envious and lazy

The problem is, in contradiction to feel good movies and Reader's Digest puke-stories, the world doesn't work like this. There is little room for improvement in this country, sorry to say. Most of the rich were either manufactured or born that way, and they do it on the backs of the middle class. You can have a decent life with good education and effort, yes, but it takes criminal instinct and unmitigated greed to make anything more than upper middle class out of your self. And as far as "whining" I am simply pointing out the always widening gap between rich and poor in this country, and how the system works to keep that gap alive and growing. It's not envious and lazy, it's outraged and frustrated Here's the thing, I am comfortable, I am in the middle class, and it's because my parents worked their asses off to get there. My family is pretty much grown up and moved out now, but If my dad had lost hist job in one of the many lay-off sessions his company had throughout my childhood, I don't know where I'd be now. Sometimes you can dig all you want and still not be able to crawl out of the hole.

[Malechi]

Originally Posted by skyknight

Well you finally did it, I have been just adding little comments here and there but this kind of comment irks me beyond belief. I hate self entitled folks who think they have some kind of right to other peoples money or dictate what they should make when they have all of the same oppurtunities most CEO's have but have neither the drive, intelligence, or motivation it takes to get to that position. And to say CEO's do not do anything for their money is crud, it is not an easy job at all....and on top of that my 401K is directly tied into wheter or not they can do a good job since I am diversified all across the market.

I will also say this...if you have ever turned on one Baseball game or ever attended one sporting event on a proffesional level you are a hypocrite pure and true for lining athletes pockets. If you have ever read any Potter stuff, bought anything, or watched the movie you are a hypocrite because she is a Billionaire. I noticed you were typing on a computer as well....hypocrite again, Bill gates is a multi Billionaire and you are supporting him. But to be honest he deserves his money....he was bright enough and had a vision and had the motivation to drive it forward.

You say CEO's have no right to make millions...I say why some guy who has no ambition beyond his own living room deserves one penny of what others make is beyond me. You have no right to dictate what others make. I say get off your backside and quit trying to take what is obviously not yours. If you want decent healthcare then work hard, educate yourself at every oppurtunity and quit whining about what others have and you do not. It just makes you seem envious and lazy.

Thank you Sky! I hate the Pseudo-Socialists like SmoG griping about other people's paychecks. His rationale of "Sharing the Wealth" of the CEO who gets millions while the employee's medical benefits package doubles in cost is ridiculous. Last time I checked we are talking about the U.S.A., not the former Soviet Union where you are forced to do what the state tells you. Employees in the U.S.A. are free to change jobs at anytime they desire. I never stayed at a job I did not enjoy thoroughly. That second the thrill was over I was out of there (I.E. If I felt I deserved a raise, I went and got that raise; or I walked out the door two weeks later - 9 times out of 10 I got the raise). I don't feel like working currently (and haven't since September 2001), so ... I make my money the old fashioned way, I earn it.*





* Anyone old enough should recognize that last sentence from the commercial.