Dignan's Maps - New Map 01/30/24

[Riggler]

Originally Posted by Dignan

Some players will argue that they like to move their army out of a bunched start zone toward their opponent in a very uniform way. These players may see this maps start zones as detrimental to the way they like to play the game. I don't think that these start zones really break up a player's "formations", they just have to think a little more about their initial moves. I think that players can still deploy their "rat shields" or "knight vanguards" on this map, it just might result in changing up their initial order marker placement. This is the whole point of this map: to mix things up and keep players thinking.

If tournament/competative players can't compete in a tournament without doing the same old "rat shields" or "knight vanguards" or one of the other 2 or 3 most effective tried and true methods of winning tournaments because a map like this one, or a few more like it end up on the tables, then I say that player who may have earned a name on the tournaments scene doesn't deserve the reputation.

Just because you've figured out an arrangement that works most of the time with the standard map designs for tournament and you WASH, RINSE, REPEAT, does not make you a very good player.

Maps that challenge those tried and true methods are sorely needed. And this one fits the bill. You didn't even argue enough for the "fliers can get to the glyphs in one turn" arguement. I don't think the origin of that criticism even considered 1) How poorly that figure is positioned; or 2) that some flyers may not even be able to fit on middle hexes given the placement of the ruins. Those winged figures can be hard to fit around ruins.

This map begs to be playtested for BOV more than any I've ever seen just from its originality standpoint. Understand, if it doesn't make it, it may set the stage for the next one with scattered zones to get a review.

[Shades fan]

Originally Posted by Jexik

On a lot of maps, going second is better. Even in maps or situations where going first is really beneficial (Zelrig on Fire Isles for instance), I find that going second is still pretty nice, largely because you get more attacks (as Dignan said) and it opens up the chance of getting two turns in a row if you win Initiative in the second round. That can often be a huge momentum changer. If anything, I might prefer maps that give a slight advantage to the guy who goes first.

Exception: If both players are playing Deathreavers and there are powerful glyphs on the board (especially Crevcor, Astrid, Gerda, Erland etc.) then there is a distinct advantage to the player who wins initiative if the player who loses initiative does not have a powerful special attack.

However, many of the early maps in the BoV will surrender all of the glyphs to whichever rat player wins the initiative on round 1, and they'll have them by turn 2. The only ones I can think of offhand that don't are Hot Heights and Ember Canyon Road, and for HH, the fact that the glyphs were not equal from both starting zones was considered a pretty big flaw by at least one judge. Some more recent maps, like Fire Isles and Turret Rocks take at least 3 turns for rats to walk there, but they still give them to whoever wins initiative.

As for your map specifically Dignan, I'm with you on the double spaced front. Show me an army that uses more than 10 double spaced figures, and I'll show you an army that would struggle on any map. The most double spaced figures I've seen in an army in any tournament was 7, and that was when I played Krug and 6 Swogs. I don't think I'll ever see someone play more than 9.

Ollie played
2xTemplars-240
Q9-180
2xDeathreavers-80
14 spaces, went 3-1 and got second place with it in Chaos in the Capital!

[Jexik]

And he used 7 double-spaced figures. And when I was talking about armies that I've seen, I was referring to the tournaments that I've attended, although I don't think I've ever seen a battle report or army list that included 4x Deathstalkers or Hounds. Even Pilgrim's 3x Hounds army still would have fit just fine on Can't see the jungle...

[ollie]

Originally Posted by Shades fan

Ollie played
2xTemplars-240
Q9-180
2xDeathreavers-80
14 spaces, went 3-1 and got second place with it in Chaos in the Capital!

That's still only seven double-spacers Shades. I did think about using Deathstalkers x3, Q10, Marro Warriors (500pts, 24 hexes) at the Fall Brawl last week. That would have been 10 double-spacers. Whether it would have done well is another question.

[ollie]

And there are your own armies Shades, that beat mine for double-hexness:

Marlboro vs the World =500
Q9-180
DW 8000-130
Isamu-10
2x Marrden hounds-180
2-2

UConn =450
3xMarrden Hounds-270
Q9-180
3-2

[Shades fan]

Originally Posted by ollie

And there are your own armies Shades, that beat mine for double-hexness:

Marlboro vs the World =500
Q9-180
DW 8000-130
Isamu-10
2x Marrden hounds-180
2-2

UConn =450
3xMarrden Hounds-270
Q9-180
3-2

The Uconn army did very well IMO, and I enjoyed playing it. Obviously I misunderstood Jexik's early point, so my above point in moot, but I still believe that it should way into the judges mind when they judge the map. i have nothing against this map, and have yet to play it, so I'm holding off my opinion on it for now, but i'll be sure to give you my thoughts on the map Dignan.

[Sup3rS0n1c]

Edit: Alright, fine, it's not neccesarilly a hijack, but this thread is about Dignan's maps, and the part I read towards the end didn't seem to have much to do with that.

[S1R_ART0R1US]

Originally Posted by Shades fan

... but i'll be sure to give you my thoughts on the map Dignan.

I'm pretty sure it stayed on topic based on the fact that the last poster talked about how he would provide his thoughts on the map...

Plus, the "hijack" by the discussion of double-spaced figure armies is relevant since "Can't see the Jungle" has irregular starting zones that could impact double-hex based armies.

[Jexik]

And I'm saying it won't impact any double spaced army that has ever been to a tournament, since even those that use 10 double-spaced figures can fit them all on the map. If this were used at your tournament and you still insist on playing 4x Deathstalkers/Templar/whatever, then I don't know what to say. It's like saying that any map with 2 RotV ruins on it is unfair to range because they block line of sight.

Anyway... keep up the good work Dignan. We'll see how the reviews go.

[DrLivingston]

I played on this map against Podwest.

He had a crap load of MacDirk and I had a crappy army.

Podwest won and we used every bit of this map during the fight.

Every bit of it.

I do think Braxas or Nilf in the middle part would ruin someone's day.

But when I played it, I realized how lame those middles 3 start zones were for most everyone else.

Completely surrounded by water and sightlined blocked (for most anybody) by ruins.

What I'm saying is, unless I knew I was playing on this map for each of my games in a tournament, I would not be able to take advantage of its unique setup any more than I would with Broken Skyline, etc.


That said, I think Dignan has made better maps, but splitting up start zones in tournaments is something I'd like to see happen.

And as the maps are known before armies are selected, I do not see a problem with single hex start zones.

[Anonymous]

I really like your maps Dignan. I have played on Dolin's Switchback. That is one amazing map. It was an intense battle with much of it centering on the road and glyphs. It is a really good map. I also played on If You Can't Take the Heat... I also really liked that map. It was a fast-paced battle with many risks involved. I really like the maps I have played and I just downloaded Ticalla Outpost and I am going to build it. I applaud your mapmaking genius and hope you continue to make more amazing maps.

[Dignan]

Originally Posted by Anonymous

I really like your maps Dignan. I have played on Dolin's Switchback. That is one amazing map. It was an intense battle with much of it centering on the road and glyphs. It is a really good map. I also played on If You Can't Take the Heat... I also really liked that map. It was a fast-paced battle with many risks involved. I really like the maps I have played and I just downloaded Ticalla Outpost and I am going to build it. I applaud your mapmaking genius and hope you continue to make more amazing maps.

Thanks a lot for all your kinds words. I'm glad to hear that you enjoyed playing on my maps. Let me know how your games on Ticalla Outpost go.