Competitiveness of D&D Figures

[killercactus]

Now that we have a Master Set and 2 waves out there for D&D, it's apparent that many of the D&D figures are high on fun factor and dungeon crawling vs. the tournament setting. Since I like talking about competitive Scape (but like playing both), I decided I'd throw a thread together for just how viable these figures are in tournaments, so that we can try and keep the tournament frame of mind bottled up here and not clog up the other threads with statements of how much units suck because they don't happen to be good in a tournament setting. Truth be told, they're all awesome units and have a place in our game, and they'll all see some play at my table.

First, here's a ranking of all the D&D figures from most competitive to least IMO:

Darrak Ambershard
Fen Hydra
Mogrimm Forgehammer
Greenscale Warriors
Goblin Cutters
Phantom Knights
Warforged Soldiers
White Wyrmling
Kurrok the Elementalist
Fire Elemental
Water Elemental
Shurrak
Rhogar Dragonspine
Ogre Warhulk
Black Wyrmling
Torin
Othkurik the Black Dragon
Wyvern
Iron Golem
Estivara
Red Wyrmling
Werewolf Lord
Blue Wyrmling
--------------------------------
Mind Flayer Mastermind
Deepwyrm Drow
Ana Karithon
Heirloom
Earth Elemental
Air Elemental
Drow Chainfighter
Sharwin Wildborn
Mika Connour
Tandros Kreel
Greater Ice Elemental
Pelloth
Erevan Sunshadow
Feral Troll
Brandis Skyhunter
Sahuagin Raider

The ------------- is where I think the cut-off is between what will be seen in tournaments at least sometimes, and what will be seen very rarely.

Comments:

The Dwarves and Hydra are easily the most competitive D&D figures so far. I think the dwarves just barely out-class the Greenscales, which will also be seen quite a bit. Darrak gets the top spot because he packs so much punch for so cheap.

Pretty much the rest of the squads round out the top units, except the Drow. If Hide in Darkness was 13 everywhere, they might see some more play. I think Cutters will be the next big impact squad, thanks to their numbers and annoying Scurry power.

I think the White Wyrmlilng will really prove to be in a slightly higher class than the rest. 6 move and 4 defense are going to be big when you're paying that much per figure, and it also has a very versatile Special Attack. In the end I think a mix of Wyrmlings is probably best, but you'll want more of one type to place your OMs on, and White is the best at that with its 4 defense.

I think half of the Elementals fall here, but I could be proven wrong by the Firestorm or Tidal Wave, which could jump at leat the WW. Earth is outclassed by Fire most of the time IMO, and I think people are going to come to see that Air just really isn't worth it - they die too easily.

After that, we start to get into the rest of the heroes. I think Shurrak tops the list with his tough stats, Knockback and a Special Attack at a Point total where we didn't really have a strong hero (Sonlen has an argument, but its just that - an argument). Rhogar is a nice, reliable healer that isn't a completely otherwise wasted turn, and is also very stout. The Warhulk is one I think could surprise some people, which is why I have him up ahead of Torin, Wyvern, etc. With a defense boost, he's really going to be a force to reckon with.

I snuck the Werewolf Lord in there above the line since he does bond and is just too fun a figure to not be seen around tournament tables. I don't think you're going to see Wolves winning tournaments anytime soon, but I think you will see some heroes howling that you might not expect to see.

The rest of these guys are, I think, much better suited for dungeon crawling or are just plain overrated in my opinion (Air Elemental, I'm looking at you. Close your mouth). Heirloom's survivability, the Mind Flayer's tricks with Ornak, or some Syvarris/Ana love might get those guys to show up once in a while. You'll probably see some Chainfighters around too, but just as a filler hero he isn't really going to scare you. Keep the rest in the closet until your dungeon or RPG scenarios come out, or drafting on the right map (yes Drow and Mika, you guys are really cool on a dungeon/shadow map, and yes GIE, you're really cool on a snow/swamp water map - I never said you weren't).

Overall, I think the designers have done a pretty darn good job giving us some competitive units to use. Almost 2/3 of them are above my line, and there are even some below the line that will be seen lurking in tourney armies. Most importantly though - they're all super fun and help make Heroscape a better game.

[dok]

I think you're underestimating the mindflayer and the Drow Chainfighter. The Mindflayer is perfectly good filler even outside an Ornak army - it might not fit in the hypercompetitive airtight builds, but it's a dangerous figure. And the DC is certainly a potentially effective filler. I don't see why he should be left off the list for being worse than Marcu most of the time - we don't ding Othkurik for being worse than Kaemon most of the time.

On the flip side, I think you're overestimating Estivara. But please prove me wrong. Ditto for the Wyvern - maybe I'm just a spider-hater.

[wriggz]

I believe you underclass the Iron Golum. He is a very good value with great survivablity verus some of the most feared Torunment staples (Dragons, Q9). The fact that swarm armies are his bain is okay since he is cheep enough to fit in your own swarmers, and the most annoying (ratz) can be taken out using the ever more prevlent speacial attack.

I would agree with dok that the wyvern and Estivara is over rated here as well. Spiders just don't have the umph to be a bread and butter unit. I think these two are cool and have interesting powers, but just dont have the sleek simple style that is required for a great tournment army.

[Mombo101]

I agree with you that the DnD figures are both fun, and I will definitely use them. Where I diverge from your viewpoints is in which pieces are viable, and which are the best of the best in DnD scape.

Darrak is good, but he's not THAT good. In my opinion the Phantom Knights are probably the best of the best in DnD 'scape, with the Warforged Knights taking a close second. Here's why:

Phantom Knights have two very important facets to them, one they are relatively cheap and have two amazing defensive abilities. Giving a boost to defense against ranged attacks provides an amazing defense against the likes of Q9, Mass 4th, Brits and many other ranged units. The ability to fly away without taking a leaving engagement strike is also huge, when you are dealing with that pesky melee figure, knowing when to retreat is big.

The Warforged Soldiers do one main thing that we only see in one other piece, the rats, and that's controlling figure placement. Rats see a ton of play because they force your opponent to play their figures where you want them to, as well as hold back ranged figures. The Warforged can do the same essential function. When you run up the Warforged and engage an opponents figure, you can easily force that opponent to lose a height advantage, or to divide and conquer. Imagine pulling Raelin out of a height advantage, surrounding her, then taking her out in three attacks. It's not that hard, and fully possible. Their defense is also great because it's what the Gorillanators defensive ability should be, it works on everything, normal and special.

If I were to do the top 10 rankings, this is what I would do...

1. Phantom Knights
2. Warforged Soldiers
3. Iron Golem (this guy kills many of the pieces which are highly competitive and see lots of GenCon play, namely Braxis and Q9. It's all for a cheap price)
4. Fen Hydra (awesome when with the right pairings)
5. Darrak Ambershard (Good, but not that good)
6. Greenscales (limited to having the dragon around, once they fall they're useless)
7. Morgrim Forgehammer (Initiative control is huge, but is overall very limited in overall scope.)
8. Air Elemental (Yes, the air elemental should take a place in the top ten. This piece limits your opponents movement control, and when placed correctly is HUGE)
9. Rhogar Dragonspine (The best healer there is in this game, enough said)
10. Mindflayer (He can gain the control of a hero, or remove an order marker. This is big, and is much better given he's uncommon).

Honestly, I don't think Kurrok is that good. He will fall quickly, and we are all forgetting that returning an elemental is based primarily on a die roll. To a decent ranged figure he's nothing. I can honestly see Q9, Kaeman Awa, or the Mass 4th or Brits taking him out in one round of attacks no problem. A fun hero, but I will say this now, he is over hyped and will not make the splash everyone thinks he will make.

I also make the same opinion on the Wyrmlings. They are good, but the best are the Red and Black ones. The others have too low of a special attack. Their regular attacks are great, but I would much rather force my opponent to roll two less dice than attacking more figures.

The Goblins, they drop like no ones business, especially against Warforged, Phantom Knights, and Brits. They will not make a huge splash.

But yeah, I'll stop there for now, I wrote a lot.

[killercactus]

@dok - Here's the thing about the Chainfighter: If you have him in there just to fill out 25 Points of an army, there's probably a better army you could be playing. I'll only include Marcu when I need someone to grab a glyph consistently or suck up wounds from Wannok. Those are two very important uses, and Marcu does them exceptionally well. The Chainfighter doesn't really have a niche like that to fill. People can talk all day about grabbing Raelin, but that's just too many turns to spend on a 25 Point figure that needs the D20 to succeed.

And yes - you're a Spider hater, and I'm a Spider lover. I don't know how many tournaments I'll be getting in lately since I'm going to GenCon (and won't be playing Spiders there, unfortunately), but they're on my list of armies to take to a tourney. Are they going to win? I don't think so, but I think I could pull a 4-1 finish with some decent matchups using Spiders, Wyvern and Estivara. Talon Grab and Venom Ray are two underrated Special Powers, IMO.

@wriggz - Yes - Iron Golem looks good 1v1 against the big Special Attackers, and he has a place in some armies. The Zelrig trick is cool. But, the problem with Iggy is that he's slow, and it will take quite a few OM's to get him engaged to the big Special Attacker, and during that setup time the rest of the opponent's army is probably attacking the rest of yours. I'd like to be proven wrong here, though - extra defense against Special Attacks is an excellent dynamic to add to the game.

@Mombo - Phantoms are definitely pretty strong, but I've played as them a little and against them a lot. They fall pretty consistently to a common barrage. They're great for assassinating the Krav, thinning out 4th Mass, hopping Rats and holding glyphs, but I don't think they're the bread and butter of an army. 3 attacks per OM from melee just doesn't cut it against the bad boys. I haven't played Warforged yet, but I feel like they're going to be the same way. Plus, Braxas exists.

Air Elementals are awesome if your opponent is all melee. If they aren't, and they get deployed as a screen, they're going to get shot down before Swirling Vortex is even thought about. They're just like the Warriors of Ashra, and how often do you see them at tournaments? In fact, I think I'd rather have the WoA - they're way cheaper and have the same stats. They both rock against melee. Air Elementals can fly and disengage, but so can the Einar Imperium and they never make it to the fight either.

[Grungebob]

Air elementals should be seeing some tourney action don't you think?

[killercactus]

Originally Posted by Grungebob

Air elementals should be seeing some tourney action don't you think?

I think they'll see some, but I don't think it's really warranted unless the tournament will be melee-heavy. They strike me as more of a counter-draft to non-flying melee than a tournament star since they're very vulnerable to small ranged attacks at 3 defense and 30 points per figure.

Against non-Gilbert-aided melee though, they spell trouble.

[dok]

Originally Posted by killercactus

@dok - Here's the thing about the Chainfighter: If you have him in there just to fill out 25 Points of an army, there's probably a better army you could be playing. I'll only include Marcu when I need someone to grab a glyph consistently or suck up wounds from Wannok. Those are two very important uses, and Marcu does them exceptionally well. The Chainfighter doesn't really have a niche like that to fill. People can talk all day about grabbing Raelin, but that's just too many turns to spend on a 25 Point figure that needs the D20 to succeed.

I don't really disagree with this*, yet I still think they belong above the line. Sure, it's not the most efficient use of 25 points in principle, but at 25 points, it's not a big deal that it isn't. Unlike most of the figures you have below the line, I don't think, "wow, I have an edge because my opponent put points there" when I see a DC. While I'm not a fan of the "earn his points" thought process in general, it's easy to imagine a DC earning his points over the course of a tournament day without costing you too much OM efficiency.

I think the same standard you are using here to consider the DC (and the mindflayer, for that matter) noncompetitive could be used to deem a lot of other figures noncompetitive.

* One quibble: on those lateral startzone/split startzone maps, the DC can get his grab going on his first activation.

[Grungebob]

Originally Posted by killercactus

I think they'll see some, but I don't think it's really warranted unless the tournament will be melee-heavy. They strike me as more of a counter-draft to non-flying melee than a tournament star since they're very vulnerable to small ranged attacks at 3 defense and 30 points per figure.

Against non-Gilbert-aided melee though, they spell trouble.

I think we may see some clever players use them to harass.

[killercactus]

Originally Posted by Grungebob

I think we may see some clever players use them to harass.

I hope that's true. I don't claim to have thought of every use for every unit. I just saw someone suggesting that Mika lay shadow tiles for Raelin to use in her discussion thread. That could bump her up the competitive ladder.

I suppose with Stealth Flying, one could propel an Air Elemental deep into the ranged figure ranks, stalling their advance for a turn while a couple of Waters shoot. I just think I might rather have another Water or Fire instead...

[Mombo101]

Originally Posted by killercactus

@Mombo - Phantoms are definitely pretty strong, but I've played as them a little and against them a lot. They fall pretty consistently to a common barrage. They're great for assassinating the Krav, thinning out 4th Mass, hopping Rats and holding glyphs, but I don't think they're the bread and butter of an army. 3 attacks per OM from melee just doesn't cut it against the bad boys. I haven't played Warforged yet, but I feel like they're going to be the same way. Plus, Braxas exists.

Air Elementals are awesome if your opponent is all melee. If they aren't, and they get deployed as a screen, they're going to get shot down before Swirling Vortex is even thought about. They're just like the Warriors of Ashra, and how often do you see them at tournaments? In fact, I think I'd rather have the WoA - they're way cheaper and have the same stats. They both rock against melee. Air Elementals can fly and disengage, but so can the Einar Imperium and they never make it to the fight either.

Here's the thing, I'm not really too sure that those you've played against have played Phantom Knights correctly. I've played in a number of tournaments, and due to not having too many squads of PK's, have played against them numerous times. If the Phantom Knights are played correctly, they are a force to be reckoned with, and yes, should be the focus of an army. You seem to forget that ranged is huge when it comes to the tournament scene, and the Phantom Knights have a huge boost against ranged. Also, they have stealth flying, and you can easily ignore most pieces to go against those key figures an opponent controls (heck everyone talks about Kurrok, a wise player would gun a squad of these guys against him).

It's the same deal with the Warforged, and you are really not giving their tactical strike enough credit. You are forcing your opponents to move their figure to where YOU want them to. When played, this is huge! They also have a bonus against normal AND special attacks.

And in regards to the Air Elementals, if you're not setting them up correctly, then they deserve to get shot down quickly. They are not supposed to be played first, or as a first screen. The AE's need to be placed strategically in order to make it much harder for your opponent to get to that key figure such as Q9 or Kaeman Awa. When your opponent does this, it does truly hold you back, or you can hold your opponent back.

[Grungebob]

There is a lot of new figures entering the tourney scene. If I have 30 points left in an army I can see taking an air elemental or a baby black.