[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

I'm far from a Batman fan, but I can sort of see AG's point - I think Batman could use a few extra glyphs with a more general use, though not too many, and not too powerful. He just doesn't feel useful or versatile at present - it would be cool if he could plan for subtle differences in the terrain and armies rather than really simple 'my opponent has Superman so I'm packing the Kryptonite Gauntlets' counterdrafts, though maybe one or two of those are alright.

The plan has always been to add more glyphs to the mix, so I'm not against that. I just don't want to add any that are great in every situation. Maybe some more that are decent in every situation.

You're missing out in the fandom arena, though.

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

The explosive batarangs I can see the point of, as I have seen him use them numerous times in the Justice League cartoons - I'd consider making it one attack and upping the attack by one, though, to make it more distinct from the regular Bat Shurikens.

I like that idea. I even like the idea of the specialty batarangs being limited use (maybe starting with three markers on the card and once you use them, you're out) and giving them fairly buffed up attacks and effects. This would make them less reliable than the shurikens, but still worth considering, especially against beefier opponents.

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Personally, I like the idea of Batman version II being designed as a jack of all trades but a master of none - he can turn his hand to most things, and be pretty good at it, but a lot of the time someone else will be able to do better at something specific. That would fit Batman pretty well from what I've seen, IMO.

Agreed. And great way of putting it.

Originally Posted by Yodaking

I like the idea of having more options but at the same time would not want to see 3 must have glyphs created, where those are the only ones ever used. If the new glyphs are more specific/situational counters like the Gloves & Goggles then I think they would be a fantastic addition.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Yodaking

Think of how it would work for a competitive/tournament environment. You bring Batman II as part of your army along with 10 different glyphs. At the start of each of your 4-5 games, you look over your opponents army and the map you were assigned and pick out the 3 you want to use for that 1 game. Over the course of those 4-5 games you might end up using 7-8 different glyphs as a result. Then you really get the Batman gadget theme down.

Agreed. But we have to be careful not to go too far with the niche glyphs either. If we make a Batman that's worth more than his cost in every conceivable situation, then he's a Batman worth more than his cost ....

Originally Posted by Yodaking

You also have to remember that their is an issue of balance with all the new glyphs. You make a new glyph too good and suddenly Batman II is worth more than 250 points.

A key point if there ever has been one.

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

I disagree. I don't think it's necessary to make everything so niche like the Gloves and Goggles. Why can't we have more like Shuriken, Pellet, and Grapnel?

I'd argue the Shuriken (crowds) and Grapnel (maps with lots of elevation changes) are both pretty niche themselves. There are lots of matches (nothing but heavy hitters, or really flat maps) where I might not want to take either of those.

The nice thing about bringing in more niche glyphs (Batmobile remote for flatter maps, exploding Batarangs that don't have as many uses, but hit harder, for heavy hitters) is that we can push some of the existing "generalist" glyphs into more niche territory.

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

So right now, IMO, Batman is pretty boring.

Eesh, not trying to make many friends, are you? I'd say this Batman is more dynamic than 90% of designs as is. I want to add more to him too, but "pretty boring"? Really?

Anyway, you're preaching to the choir in general, because the plan always was and always has been to add more to his glyph collection. I think a few of us are just putting up strong (and necessary) advisories about the things we need to carefully consider while doing so.

I know it's easy to want a Batman who's the baddest of the bad and can beat everyone always, but we do need to seriously make sure to avoid power creep here and resist the temptation to make him everything to everyone always.

Originally Posted by Ronin

Personally, I'd rather see more niche glyphs than more general-use ones. That would require a higher number of glyphs in order to get Batman really versatile than the general-use route would, but I think it would be more interesting and fitting overall.

I completely agree with this sentiment. It'll also be easier to add niche glyphs that don't unbalance or overpower Bats. His cost of 250 is static, so any additional glyphs have to be careful not to upset his balance at that cost.

Originally Posted by Ronin

That said...

1. A couple more general-use glyphs would still be nice, even if I would rather see the balance swing in favor of the niche designs.
2. It's for public design, so whatever we get will be driven by what the community wants. Can't hurt to get the ideas out there.

Agreed on both points here as well. But we'll need to tread carefully.

Originally Posted by Yodaking

I get what you are saying AS, what I am saying is be careful not to make 3 new bat-glyphs that become the new automatic 3 taken every time.

That's key, as is not doing anything that will bump his cost. He's very worth the 250 points as is, IMO.

Originally Posted by capsocrates

It seems like any all-purpose glyphs should be weaker in most/all scenarios than the scenario-specific glyphs are in their scenarios.

Agreed. And that's an important point to keep in mind for any glyph we add. They should either be: a) a highly niche glyph or b) a general purpose glyph that is no more useful than any glyph he currently has (slightly less useful is OK - redundant is not).