Trial of Carnage (custom by Jack o' Blades)

[allskulls]

Next on trial is a custom by a newcomer to the boards. All are welcome and encouraged to bring there input. Please be aware of the discussion guidelines (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=9759&start=0).

Jack o' Blade's version of...

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b295/White-Balverine/carn-3.jpg

Any playtesting should only include this custom, official characters and/or customs with a TNT stamp of approval. Playtesting with Classicscape is welcome so we can see how the custom works with official squads.

Playtest suggestions:
1. Pit Carnage against Spider-Man or Venom.

[IAmBatman]

Gotta go - but looking forward to my first turn as a judge. More later!

[Firemaster]

I honestly can't see anything wrong with this card. He should be able to get in easily.

EDIT: Ok, there is one thing I noticed, and that is that he has no hitzone. It's easily remedied though.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

ANTI-SPIDER says, "If Carmage..." just a slight typo. I would also change the wording around because it is unnecesarily redundant. Just say:

Any figure defending against an attack from Carnage may not use Spider-Sense.

Everything else looks good. Just need to play test him, I think 150 is probably pretty close though.

[IAmBatman]

The wording of Anti Spider (Hi's fix works nicely) and the hitzone were my main concerns as well. If Allskulls gives this one similar treatment it will clean up the overall look of the card a bit.
I need to see how this guy holds up to Spidey, Venom, and other characters in this price range, but I agree that everything else looks good.
I think the left box is looking especially nice.

[allskulls]

I think Batman is about done so I may test this guy out today. Just rebased the fig this morning :D

[GreyOwl]

Are you using the HeroClix Carnage, or another one? I'd love to find another one, since the HeroClix one is around $30. :( :(

Oh, and I don't think his class should be "Vigilante". The official card used that for Venom, because now he's a semi-good guy and fights crime. I don't think Carnage ever went that route, and was just a sychotic serial killer.

By the way, I know that "sychotic" starts with a "p", but whenever I type a word that starts with the letters p-s-y into a message, I can't post it. I get the following error:

Forbidden
You don't have permission to access /community/posting.php on this server.

Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Apache/1.3.37 Server at www.heroscapers.com Port 80


Any ideas why?

[allskulls]

Yep, it's the Hero Clix Carnage. All my Clix get the same modding treatment regardless of Unique or LE status...or E-Bay prices :wink:

I agree on the class thing. Not sure what it should be though.

There was a whole thread dedicated to the "invalid session" thing. It has something to do with the site's filter.

[GreyOwl]

For my Carnage, I used "Criminal" as the class and "P-sychotic" as the personality. I figured that fit a serial killer close enough.

Oh, and I wouldn't mind cutting off the base of a HeroClix Carnage or anything. I just don't have one and don't want to pay that much to get one. :(

[IAmBatman]

What's wrong with "Killer" as a class? That's what I'm planning on using for Mr. Zsasz and some of the other serial killers Batman goes up against.

[Jack o' Blades]

Ahh, sorry I took so long to respond :(

ANTI-SPIDER says, "If Carmage..." just a slight typo. I would also change the wording around because it is unnecesarily redundant. Just say:

Any figure defending against an attack from Carnage may not use Spider-Sense.

Everything else looks good. Just need to play test him, I think 150 is probably pretty close though.

It does say Carnage :wink:

Re-wording sounds good, I'll change that if there is any other changes that need to be made.

As for the personality/class or whatever it is, lol, I think Insane and Vigilante are fine. Of course, the others that were mentioned do sound good also, but if you think about it, an Insane Vigilante is most likely going to be a killer.


The Hit-Zone problem...well, as my custom thread states, I don't know how to do that. Or I haven't tried, at least. Again though, just a small thing that is easily fixed. He obviously sees out of his eyes, even though he can apparently see from every inch in his body, and just like the rest of 'em, he can be hit from head to toe.

[GreyOwl]

But Vigilante means someone who fights crime without proper authorization. I don't think Carnage ever fought crime - he was the criminal. Just my thoughts. :)

[Jack o' Blades]

He fights Spiderman :p haha... And Spiderman wears mask and fights crime, which has labeled him, according to the legal crime fighters, as a Criminal.

Batman has these problems too :wink:


But for real now, you do bring up a good point. But that does makes me think, perhaps Vigilante isn't the right choice..

EDIT -- I don't know what happened with that...triple posting? Sorry
EDIT2 -- Where's the "Delete Post" button? :oops:
EDIT3 -- Nevermind, I found it.

[IAmBatman]

Hopefully I'll be getting in some playtesting tomorrow. If so, I'll post my report and my reactions.

[NecroBlade]

For Carn-Axe, do you place the wound before or after using the attack? That needs to be clarified.

[IAmBatman]

I imagine it would be after - in which case you can easily change "when" to "immediately after".

[Fallen Templar]

Um... I thought Carnage was a Serial Killer not a vigilante...
Pricing is about right here no real complaints on abilities but he does need a hitzone.
If a figures needed here's one
http://www.wizkidsgames.com/images/figures/Rotating/HMUL/HMUL_087_rot01.jpg

[GreyOwl]

Is that figure the HeroClix one? Because if so, it sells for over $35 usually...

[Fallen Templar]

Is that figure the HeroClix one? Because if so, it sells for over $35 usually... I don't know guess so, I think it would fine for a hitzone for now.

[IAmBatman]

The figure would really be there just for the hitzone - it doesn't mean you'd have to use that figure when you played. We're not selling any cards along with figures here. :D
One way to go instead of "Killer" might be where I went with Joker -"Sociopath".

[GreyOwl]

The figure would really be there just for the hitzone - it doesn't mean you'd have to use that figure when you played. We're not selling any cards along with figures here. :D
One way to go instead of "Killer" might be where I went with Joker -"Sociopath".

I thought the post was in repsonse to my earlier question about finding an affordable Carnage figure to use. If it wasn't, then I misunderstood. :?

[IAmBatman]

I'm pretty sure he was providing a figure just to make the hitzone with. I could be wrong as well, though. :P

[Eclipse]

Personally, I'm not all that fond of Anti-Spider. If any character should have it, it would be Venom and if he doesn't have it, I really don't think its worth putting on Carnage either. In addition, I'm never particularly fond of powers that only affect a single character or an incredibly narrow selection of enemy figures. They tend to create characters that are either not worth their points in most situations, or overpowered in others.

In this case, I'm leaning towards overpowered. Simply put, I think that power makes Carnage vs. Spiderman a battle that's really not particularly fun. With 8 attack, he's going to cut through Spiderman's 4 defense pretty quickly, even if it costs him a couple wounds. That's 160 points down pretty effortlessly and I think this guy is worth 150 even without that. I've said this before, but if you're going to make a really specific counter draft character, they have to be really weak against everything else or they're simply too powerful for their points. In addition, I think the real problem here is that Carnage just isn't particularly fun against either of the characters you should be putting Carnage up against. I need to playtest to be certain, but that's my gut reaction looking at the card overall.

Anyway, nothing is certain in theoryscape, so I can't say anything for certain until I've given it a real try. Wish my Marvel set would arrive soon so I can really play, but I'll probably play some proxyscape later this week to get some more definitive answers.

[Jack o' Blades]

Um... I thought Carnage was a Serial Killer not a vigilante...
Pricing is about right here no real complaints on abilities but he does need a hitzone.
If a figures needed here's one
http://www.wizkidsgames.com/images/figures/Rotating/HMUL/HMUL_087_rot01.jpg


Was looking for this, but never got the figure alone

Thanks :D

Hit-zone and re-wording being worked on..


Kay, well, I'm not 100% sure on how this "Tried and True" thing goes down, but it IS O.K. to do minor fixes like that, right?

[IAmBatman]

It's ok to make wholesale changes up until the time we decide to vote. This is more about where the custom is at the end of the process than the beginning, IMO. We just encourage people to only submit customs that are already as complete as possible to save time so that we can get this stamp on as many customs as possible.

[Jack o' Blades]

Re-wording/Clarifications and Hit-Zone done :D

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b295/White-Balverine/carn2-1.jpg

[GreyOwl]

I going to have to agree with Eclipse on this one. Even though I like the card, it does seem inconsistent with official cards because Venom doesn't ignore Spider-Sense. Plus, as Eclipse pointed out, with an attack of 8 and nullifying Spider-Man's Spider-Sense, I think this figure should be priced significantly higher than Spider-Man

[Wytefang]

This seems like quite a well thought-out custom. I'm impressed. I usually avoid customs like the plague because they're rarely well-balanced and the cards usually look like crap, as well, but this one is pretty solid, I think. I'd bump his normal attack up one more point though. He's no slouch...it took both Spidey and Venom to tackle Carnage in the comics -furthermore he's a clever symbiote, once tricking the Silver Surfer into grafting with him!!

[IAmBatman]

First playtest results are in. I'd call them ... inconclusive. Carnage didn't exactly cause much carnage, but I think the lack of bonding in his army really hurt.
Two 500 point armies.

Army 1
Venocs x4
Armocs x2
Aubrians x1
Mittens
DeD

Army 2
James Murphy
Tarn Vikings
Jotun
Carnage

Army 1 sent out the Venocs first along the roads along the sides. Between that, the scout boost, the frenzy bonus, and frenzy in general, they rules the map. By the time all 3 sets of Venocs fell, they had taken down the Tarns, Murphy, and Carnage, and put two wounds on Jotun. Carnage managed to take out 4 Venocs before he fell - once each turn he atacked. I didn't get a chance to use his powers - it wouldn't have made any sense to take the wound to use 8 attack, I wasn't going against any units with Spider Sense, and the area I engaged the Venocs was mostly flat. I suppose I could've used it to disengage with the Venocs, but I didn't want to lose out on the chance to take one out with every activation.
Analysis: Carnage didn't kill his points, but it wasn't really his fault. With only one attack per turn, he's going to be vulnerable to swarms such as this. Since Army 1 was smart enough not to bunch armies together and the Venocs only approached the Tarns one at a time, only Jotun really ended up being a good match for them. I think he'll do better in hero centric armies. Squads may be his bane.

[Fallen Templar]

This seems like quite a well thought-out custom. I'm impressed. I usually avoid customs like the plague because they're rarely well-balanced and the cards usually look like crap, as well, but this one is pretty solid, I think. I'd bump his normal attack up one more point though. He's no slouch...it took both Spidey and Venom to tackle Carnage in the comics -furthermore he's a clever symbiote, once tricking the Silver Surfer into grafting with him!! I don't think my customs look like crap :evil:

[GreyOwl]

He's saying that most look like crap but that your's is good.

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, he was complimeting yours. It was all of mine he was ripping on. :D

[Doc_Savage]

This seems like quite a well thought-out custom. I'm impressed. I usually avoid customs like the plague because they're rarely well-balanced and the cards usually look like crap, as well, but this one is pretty solid, I think...

Look at the Barracks or the Halls of Valhalla - good customs there. Oh, and of course my thread...

[IAmBatman]

Another battle report - first of two mini battles with Carnage facing off against his spider rivals.
First, Spider Man himself. Gotta say, quite the Spidey killer. With no Spider Sense, Spidey's quite a bit weaker.

The Report: After spending two rounds getting them in position, Spidey got off the first shot with his web special attack, and Carnage received one wound. Next turn, Carnage swings up to the same level and uses his Carn-Axe Special. Five skulls. Spidey rolls no shields. Spidey's gone.
Analysis: Obviously five skulls of eight and zero shields of four isn't going to happen every time. But Carn-Axe will be good for four skulls on average, and Spidey's normal defenses will be good for 1.3 shields on average, so it's not *that* far off at all. Basically, Spidey won't last two rounds engaged with Carnage most of the time, and won't last more than three rounds pretty much ever. So no contest for this one - Carnage will always kill his points worth going up against Spidey - even if he has to take a couple of self imposed wounds to do so.

[GreyOwl]

Seems like he overpowers Spider-Man pretty well. And someone earlier commented that it took Spider-Man and Venom together to beat him. Given that, I'd say this figure significantly undercosted. As it stands currently, he's cheaper than Spider-Man.

[Wytefang]

I greatly apologize for offending anyone, I was mostly referring to the plethora of crappy customs that by some MIRACLE are actually purchased on eBay. Boggles my mind but I suppose P.T. Barnum was correct in his famous quote. ::: shrug :::

Most of the ones I've seen in here have been pretty solid but in general, I just prefer official units due to all the play-testing they received. I hope that makes sense?

[IAmBatman]

Second mini battle and results were *mostly* the same. Though I could've seen this one going against Carnage as well, so he's looking decently balanced even against his symbiote peer in my eyes now.

Report: Again, first round spent positioning. Second round started with Venom giving Carnage a wound with the Web Special - Deja Vu so far.
It stopped when Carnage's first Carn-Axe assault failed to land more than one wound, though, and Venom got another shot, using his 6 attack dice to land two wounds on Carnage. At this point, it's 1 wound for Venom, 4 wounds for Carnage (one self imposed).
Knowing his normal attack is so inferior to Venom's and that Venom has so many more life points, Carnage had no choice but to risk another Carn-Axe attack. He did, and inflicted 4 wounds, finishing Venom. Final results: Venom dead. Carnage 5 wounds.
Analysis: If Venom had been lucky enough to survive a second Carn-Axe assault, Venom would've likely finished him. Venom's superior attack makes him a much better option against Carnage than Spidey.
So right now, Carnage is looking like a nearly sure thing against Spidey, a good option against Venom, a poor choice against swarms, and probably a so-so option against other heroes in his point range.
I'd say he looks like a decent addition, but he wouldn't get a terrible amount of play out of me.
Still, he's not looking broken or confusing or thematically inappropriate in any way, so unless chatter in here the next few days convinces me otherwise, I forsee giving this guy the STAMP.

[Eclipse]

So far, your playtesting has me convinced otherwise. Here's the two things I can't quite wrap my head around:

- Why does Carnage take a wound when he uses his Carn-Axe special attack?

- Why is a mass murder absolutely horrible at murdering masses?

- Why does he cost somewhere in between Spiderman and Venom when he's supposed to be stronger than both?

I have a few more comments, but I'd like to get a little more discussion on this card before I continue.

[IAmBatman]

These are all questions I'm glad you're asking, because I'm not very familiar with the character, so all I'm looking at is gameplay elements - not how gameplay relates to his character's presumed power level or thematics.

[Jack o' Blades]

So far, your playtesting has me convinced otherwise. Here's the two things I can't quite wrap my head around:

- Why does Carnage take a wound when he uses his Carn-Axe special attack?

- Why is a mass murder absolutely horrible at murdering masses?

- Why does he cost somewhere in between Spiderman and Venom when he's supposed to be stronger than both?

I have a few more comments, but I'd like to get a little more discussion on this card before I continue.

I will answer them :)

Q1 -- Carnage takes a wound by using his Carn-Axe Special Attack because he is seperating some of the symbiote from himself to create the ''axe''.

Q2 -- I designed him more specifically for MS...and well, the masses aren't too massive (yet).

Q3 -- I originally priced him 170, but was recommended by several others to make him slightly cheaper, and so I did. By the looks of it so far, he can totally slaughter Spiderman, which is thematically correct. He can kill Venom, which is also thematically correct. However, it looks like if the two were to team up, Carnage is screwed...which is a good sign too.

It just dawned on me that perhaps he should cost a bit more.



Hopefully that answered your questions. Feel free to ask more :D

[IAmBatman]

I think a boost to 160 might be in order - but I want to see what other people's playtesting amounts to.

[GreyOwl]

I would say even higher than 160. It sounds like he's stronger than Spider-Man by quite a bit.

[IAmBatman]

He's stronger than Spider-Man one on one. However, he has nowhere near Spiderman's survivability against other units due to his lack of Spider Sense. Spider Sense lets Spidey survive much better than him against every other unit in the game besides Carnage, and Carnage's Anti-Spider lets him whomp on exactly two units - Spidey and Venom. So I wouldn't say Carnage is head and shoulders above Spidey - he just whips Spidey in a duel. This game is much larger than two figures, though.

[Eclipse]

I will answer them :)

Q1 -- Carnage takes a wound by using his Carn-Axe Special Attack because he is seperating some of the symbiote from himself to create the ''axe''.


I kinda expected that answer. I've got two problems with the idea though. First off, the iconic Carn-Axe rarely actually separates from Carnage and he reabsorbs the Symbiote after he uses it. I've rarely seen overuse of the power be his downfall, even less than seeing Venom get worn down by overusing his web attack. I certainly don't recall him falling apart because he used it just 6 times.

The second is more of a concern to me however. My biggest problem with the way this power works, is that it encourages Carnage holding back, which seems terribly out of character. Carnage is the kind of character to use 8 attack dice to slaughter a Viper, which I don't think you'll get with this power set up.


Q2 -- I designed him more specifically for MS...and well, the masses aren't too massive (yet).


Probably fair, but I'd really consider making a character that's prepared for the future. We're continually told this game is designed to be fully compatible and the TNT cards should really do their best to maintain that goal.


Q3 -- I originally priced him 170, but was recommended by several others to make him slightly cheaper, and so I did. By the looks of it so far, he can totally slaughter Spiderman, which is thematically correct. He can kill Venom, which is also thematically correct. However, it looks like if the two were to team up, Carnage is screwed...which is a good sign too.

It just dawned on me that perhaps he should cost a bit more.


I really think if Spiderman and Venom need to team up to take him down, then he needs to be priced accordingly. A 180-200 version of Carnage would hardly be out of line, and would allow you to put a little more into him without relying on my least favorite of his powers.


Hopefully that answered your questions. Feel free to ask more :D

I'm going to voice my gripe about the Spider Sense evading power one more time, just because I really think its a bad idea. I think my biggest problem is what Spider Sense really represents in this game. While its given that name, it really represents Spidey's agility and evasive fighting style. In this game, its what makes Spidey fight like Spidey, dancing around dodging blows while trying to return in kind.

Carnage's ability has never completely negated Spiderman's speed and reaction times. What it usually grants him is the ability to approach Spiderman without his knowledge. Once in battle, Spiderman still fights dodging Carnage's attacks, and generally playing the hard to hit little bug that he is. I think a Carnage that just swings in and wails on either of these figures significantly detracts from the way these fights go down in the comics, which is my biggest problem with the power.

Personally, I'd rather see Carnage be stronger all around, but less brutally effective against two specific characters. He's a pretty powerful guy, vicious, deadly, and really really hard to take down. His ability to take down Spidey doesn't rely nearly as much on the no-Sense gimmick as it does on his base abilities. If you're set on including it, I'd tone it down and bump his base stats significantly. Maybe a character rolling for Spider Sense subtracts 3 from their result when defending against Carnage? I really think that'll do a better job of letting Carnage win without losing what makes Spiderman fight like Spiderman in this game.

[IAmBatman]

Gotta say, as someone unfamiliar with Carnage, and already feeling that being created soley as a Spidey specific assassin isn't as fun as the character could be, I'm feeling pretty persuaded by Eclipse's arguments here.
Three things he said that I definitely concur with.
1) Carnage should be more powerful in general, and shouldn't be encouraged to hold back - he's a sociopath, let him be one.
2) Subtracting from the Spidey Sense roll instead of completely obliterating it might work better, for various reasons I won't list (rehash) here.
and
3) The standard for TNT customs should be full compatibility, not just Marvel Masterset compatibility.

Maybe he could roll one attack die each time he uses Carn-Axe and take any hits - that way he only has a 50% chance of taking damage each time he uses it (so he *might* get hurt if he overdoes it, but it's not necessarily going to happen). Just a thought.
I agree with bumping up some of his base stats as well.
Something like a Blood Hungry Special Attack might fit as well ...

[Firemaster]

Something like a Blood Hungry Special Attack might fit as well ...

Perhaps something like what I was thinking of for my Carnage:

TOTAL CARNAGE
If Carnage destroys a figure with his normal attack, you may take another turn with Carnage.

[IAmBatman]

I certainly love the name! :D It even sounds bloody ...

[Eclipse]

Something like a Blood Hungry Special Attack might fit as well ...

Perhaps something like what I was thinking of for my Carnage:

TOTAL CARNAGE
If Carnage destroys a figure with his normal attack, you may take another turn with Carnage.

Name it MAXIMUM CARNAGE or go home :D

Anyway, something like Bloodhungry is probably a pretty solid way to go. I don't know if I'd give him a full turn, as the inability to move is something that stops Brunak from clearing the board on a single turn.

Something like Jotun's Wild Swing might work well for him too. I've actually got a variation of the power written up for an upcoming Hero NOBODY's ever heard of.

[IAmBatman]

you could make it *exactly* like Blood Hungry, except with 5 attack instead of 4. I think that'd bump his value some.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

Hmmm... I personally don't like the way this is going. If the judges here think that Carnage is too specific then don't give him the stamp. I don't think going around giving new powers to card is the way to go. With Batman we revised the old powers, I think it was fine that we tweaked the old abilities since their wording left room for interpretation. If the judges here see it fit that Carnage have new powers then in my opinion he is not worthy of Tried and True status. The card should NOT be given new powers in these threads, just reworded and tweaked in areas that need help.

[GreyOwl]

My opinion (and since I'm not a judge it probably means nothing) is that I agree with Eclipse's comments. He's just better at wording it than I am. :) Basically, I think Carnage should be around 200 points, not take wounds when he attacks, and not negate Spider-Sense. In the comics, he doesn't negate Spider-Sense any more than Venom does, and the official Venom card doesn't do it at all. I think Carnage should be compatible in that regard, especially if one of the stated goals was to be compatible with Marvel HS.

I also agree with hi1hi1hi1hi1. I think a trial should be a pass/fail thing. Judges should suggest tweaks to wording, point costs, etc. and report results of playtesting. But in the end, if these don't fix the figure sufficiently, they should let the customizer decide what to do. I don't think we want to turn each custom into a "community created" one. Though that would have its benefits, I think it would take away some of the originality and creativity of each individual customizer. Just tell the customizer "it doesn't work because of x, y, z" and let them come up with a possible solution. Just my vote, though. :)

[IAmBatman]

You both make a lot of solid points. I'd like to wait and see what Allskulls has to say, though, since this is his brainchild. But I do agree, changes shouldn't be completely wholesale during these trials. That doesn't mean we can't talk about them, but if we need those to give it a stamp, then maybe the stamping process isn't right for this custom ...

[allskulls]

I want this thread to be dedicated to assisting Jack o' Blades in making his custom as thematic, effective and balanced as possible.

So moving the guidelines discussion here (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=302545#328376).

[Jack o' Blades]

Hm, well, all of your bring up good points. But now there's too many posts for me to find somewhere to start from :wink:

How about..the MAXIMUM CARNAGE idea..

Now, this would probably be a dramatic change which was also stated by a lot of you that probably not be done. 'TNT' should be used to make the final adjustments to the card and so on. I belive that this is how it should be done, and perhaps Carnage truely isn't quite ready for the stamp.

Anyway, I was thinking, perhaps give him a kind of offensive Spider-Sense ability..?

MAXIMUM CARNAGE
If Carnage attacks a figure and rolls at least one skull, roll the 20 sided die. If you roll a one, place one wound on this card.
If you roll a 2-9, nothing happens
If you roll a 10-14, add one automatic skull to your attack.
If you roll a 15-17, add two automatic skulls to your attack.
If you roll a 18-19, add three automatic skulls to your attack.
If you roll a 20, add five automatic skulls to your attack.
If a figure is destroyed with this attack, Carnage may immeditaley use his Havok Line ability.

HAVOC LINE 4
Treat this ability as Swing Line. Instead of a normal move, Carnage may use Havoc Line. Havoc Line has a move of 4. When counting spaces for Carnage's Havoc Line movement, ignore elevations. Carnage may swing over water without stopping, swing over figures without becoming engaged, and swing over obstacles such as ruins. Carnage may not Havoc Line more than 40 levels up or down in a single Havoc Line. If Carnage is engaged when he starts to Havoc Line, he will not take any leaving engagement attacks. If Havoc Line was used by the effect of Maximum Carnage, Carnage may make another attack after using Havoc Line.


If these we're to be used, his other abilities would be taken off. So it'd just be these two, instead of Anti-Spider, Sing Line 4, and Carn-Axe. I think his current stats would/should be kept the same, but obviously his point value would change. I also think, that with these two abilities, it should give him more of the Serial Killer/Mass Muderer feel.

I'm starting to think that maybe there should be a restriction on Havoc Line. For example, topping off the last bit of Havoc Line with something like "Carnage can't use his Maximum Carnage ability on this attack." But by doing that, I feel like it would limit the Serial Killer/Mass Muderer feel, and well, by doing that it just wouldn't feel like Carnage. Then again, eventually, once he can't reach something, it would end there also.

Anywho, how 'bout some thoughts on it first?

And with that, all the previous thoughts should be covered.

EDIT--If anybody saw my spelling error, Havok, my bad (lol). I've been playing too much Mortal Kombat lately.

[allskulls]

:shock:

Completely different unit. I like it, but there will be a need for some wording changes and his base attack could go down to a 3 with Maximum Carnage in effect, which is a bit too much going up to 5 auto hits. Why skip 4?

If this is the one you want tested, I will be getting a game in between today and tomorrow.

[Jack o' Blades]

:shock:

Completely different unit. I like it, but there will be a need for some wording changes and his base attack could go down to a 3 with Maximum Carnage in effect, which is a bit too much going up to 5 auto hits. Why skip 4?

If this is the one you want tested, I will be getting a game in between today and tomorrow.

I ran out of numbers for the 4, lol. And it makes it seem like the 5 will be more devastating by skipping the 4.

His attack probably should go down to three, but that's if there is no restriction on MC + HL.

If you would be so kind, feel free to playtest it. And perhaps this re-wording you speak of?

There would also be need a new point value..and to be honest, I've never made a custom like this, so I have no clue where-about he should be.

[IAmBatman]

I'd say make 20 only 4 auto hit - these aren't dice you're adding, they're skulls, so they're a heck of a lot more potent. I'd say 2 for his normal attack is all right, just to keep him in check some. Then again, he'll probably blank out on his rolls too often that way, and that might not be fun, so maybe 3 base dice is the way to go.
I like Havok Line, and no reason not to let him use Maximum Carnage every time he attacks, IMO. You just need to price him accordingly. From what I've read about this guy in these trials, I'd say that it would launch him to the power level where he belongs. IMO, this guy should be 200+ in terms of points, better than Batman, and much better than Venom or Spidey alone.
All of this said, it sounds like since such drastic changes are in order, this should be a candidate for resubmission at a later time.

[Jack o' Blades]

I think the base of 3, and the 20 roll of 5 should be the way to go. The chances of getting a 20 are 0.05%, which is half the chance of getting the +3 roll. For half the chance of +3, I don't think 4 is good enough/the right amount. On top of that, it would subliminaly keep the Carn-Axe ability by getting the 8 attack :D

And, haha, I feel dumb for asking, but howelse does one learn? What does IMO stand for? I've never seen it used until I joined here.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

This one is better than the last, but being unfamiliar with almost all superheroes/villains the flavor doesn't always make sense to me. Anyway I don't like the line "Treat this ability as Swing Line." Not sure why it is in there exactly. Otherwise it looks good, though it is a completely different card, so I would close this thread, make the card, then resubmit it.

[Jack o' Blades]

I had to stick that in there in there or something that at least references to Swing Line, because if it's called Havok Line, then mentions swinging over obstacles and such, some people could get confused by that.

Perhaps I could get rid of that first line, then reword it better instead of copy and pasting Swing Line :lol:

As for closing the thread, then reopening with a revised Carnage, that sounds like a good idea. However, I'm still lost for a point value...

[Firemaster]

As for closing the thread, then reopening with a revised Carnage, that sounds like a good idea. However, I'm still lost for a point value...

I'd say closing this and opening a new thread with the new card is a good idea as well.

Let's see. If you want to keep the roll of 20 giving +5, and give him a base attack of 3, I'd say lower the requirement for getting the +1 attack a bit. As it stands, he only has a 55% chance of getting any attack bonus, and I'd say that's a bit weak for a character like Carnage. So perhaps something like this:

1:Take a wound
2-7:Nothing
8-13:+1
14-17:+2
18-19:+3
20:+5

For the other stats, I'd say give him 6 Life, 6 Move, and 5 Defense. With all that, I'd say 200-210 points would be about right.

[IAmBatman]

All right, let's make this official. Carnage needs 4 stamps to get the TNT now. I, for one, will be passing on a stamp pending revision and resubmission. Since a majority (three) stamps are needed to get him official TNT status, one more judge passing on him for now will be enough for me to lock down this thread and for any revision discussion to be moved to Jack O'Blades' custom thread.
If/when this Carnage is resubmitted, I can reopen this thread then, or we can start a new one and link this thread to it.

[IAmBatman]

OK, I got my second vote in a pm, so here's the link
http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=9785
And here's the lockdown.