Extra Abilities

[GreyOwl]

This has been discussed in a few other threads, but I wanted to start a new thread so the discussion can be grouped in one place. Several people had ideas for how to approach figures with many abilities, more than the 3-4 that can fit on the card. Here are the different approaches I've seen (if one of these was yours and I get it wrong, please correct me):


Pay-As-You-Go - one or more cards that list a bunch of abilities, each ability with its own cost. You pick the specific ones you want and pay the cost accordingly.
Pros: Very flexible, and allows a wider variety for each figure.
Cons: Difficult to balance point costs for the figure since some abilities when combined can result in an advantage much greater than the sum of their costs. Also difficult to balance other figures by comparison, since you don't know what combination a player could pick. It might also be difficult to remember which ones were selected if you use a lot of figures.

All-or-Nothing - similar to Pay-As-You-Go, but there is one cost for the entire ability card, not a cost per ability. You either take the whole card and pay the cost, or you don't. I've used this approach in some of my customs, although now I'm thinking it's not the way to go.
Pros: A little easier to balance the figure and others since there is a more limited set of options.
Cons: Still not the perfect answer for balancing point costs. The option to have or not have it can still throw a wrench into the process of balancing figures. For example, Superman should have a lower cost if the possibility of others having Kryptonite exists, but a higher cost if there isn't (meaning he has no real weakness). So how do you cost him if you don't know whether Kryptonite is a possibility or not?

Token Based - the ability card has no cost associated with it, and it is always used with the main Army Card of the figure. The ability card starts with a certain number of tokens on it. The number of tokens can be different for each card. Everytime an ability is used from that card, you need to discard one token.
Pros: Balancing becomes much easier, because you know what is available. Token system allows for limited resources as well. For example, you could implement a Batman with a limited number of Batarangs if you wanted. Not that you couldn't do this before, but this gives a way to track how many are left. It is also possible to put a special ability on the main Army Card that allows for ways to earn more tokens (like receiving a wound to get one, or whatever). You could even have powerful abilites that require more than a single token to use.
Cons: If you want to have an ability with unlimited use, it would either have to go on the main Army Card (where there may not be room) or go on the ability card with a note saying it costs no tokens. I'm not sure what kinds of issues doing the latter might cause.


Personally, I'm thinking of trying the Token Based system, especially for my Iron Man armors. Certain abilities (like "Flying") would go on the main card, but all armor systems go on the ability card. The limited number of tokens would represent the power level of the armor, with options to perhaps recharge (maybe if attacked by an electrical attack?). I may also try it for my version of Batman, so he can have a limited number of Batarangs, Flash Bang Grenades, and Bolas.

I'd really like to hear everyone else's suggestions and ideas. Are there any other options? Any pros/cons that I missed?

[Hauptman Totenkopf]

Much like an expanded version of the Airbourne Elite's Hand Grenade! And it makes sense: Hawkeye has a limited number of exploding arrows, leaving him with a quiver full of whistling arrows or glue arrows or whatever.

Very Nice.

I'll just use my leftover damage tokens from all the HeroScape sets I parted out over the last couple of years...

I guess that the real question for me now is: How many tokens are assigned to each mission? Can you stock a utility belt with all batarangs, for instance, eschewing the bat-rope, or whatever the heck that guys carries around with him? Or mix it up?

Like having a bank of 12 tokens to stock your 'utility belt' with, and a card full of options to choose from.

[allskulls]

I like the tokens idea, but I think there should still be a cost. Some characters might not have this bonus and to allow the choice of using it or not would be better. Plus we could make some for the official cards.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

I would just say make multiple cards for the same figure if you really want more powers than can fit. When you start adding 6 or 7 powers to a single figure it gets to be too combersome. I would rather see 5 different Batmans by the same person that use different abilities than 1 Batman costed super high that uses 12 different powers.

[GreyOwl]

I guess that the real question for me now is: How many tokens are assigned to each mission? Can you stock a utility belt with all batarangs, for instance, eschewing the bat-rope, or whatever the heck that guys carries around with him? Or mix it up?


Well, if the ability card has batarangs, bat-rope, etc. on it and each costs one token, it's really up to you. You can use all your tokens on batarangs or mix it up.

I like the tokens idea, but I think there should still be a cost. Some characters might not have this bonus and to allow the choice of using it or not would be better. Plus we could make some for the official cards.

Well, there is still a cost just not a separate one. I was thinking the cost would be included in the main Army Card's cost. Since you know ahead of time what abilites are possibilities and how tokens the figure starts with, you should be able to calculate an appropriate cost. I thought about making some for the official cards as well (like Iron Man), but I decided the better way to approach that was simply to make my own Iron Man. I didn't want to venture into the realm of "half-custom, half-official" cards.

I would just say make multiple cards for the same figure if you really want more powers than can fit. When you start adding 6 or 7 powers to a single figure it gets to be too combersome. I would rather see 5 different Batmans by the same person that use different abilities than 1 Batman costed super high that uses 12 different powers.

But what I was trying to accomplish was to give the player flexibility and options that they can choose during the game without unbalancing point costs. I wasn't suggesting making these guys with super high costs. You don't have to have as many tokens as abilities. For example, I'm currently working on a custom of the Mandarin. The ability card would have 10 abilities on it, one for each of his rings. But he would only get 6 tokens, so there's no way he can use all of them in a single game. Yet he has the flexibility to choose which ones he uses depending on the circumstances during the game and doesn't have to make that choice upfront when drafting Army Cards. Plus it allows me to make a single version of the Mandarin instead of a bunch of different combinations. Saves me time while customizing and also while drafting armies.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

I would just say make multiple cards for the same figure if you really want more powers than can fit. When you start adding 6 or 7 powers to a single figure it gets to be too combersome. I would rather see 5 different Batmans by the same person that use different abilities than 1 Batman costed super high that uses 12 different powers.

But what I was trying to accomplish was to give the player flexibility and options that they can choose during the game without unbalancing point costs. I wasn't suggesting making these guys with super high costs. You don't have to have as many tokens as abilities. For example, I'm currently working on a custom of the Mandarin. The ability card would have 10 abilities on it, one for each of his rings. But he would only get 6 tokens, so there's no way he can use all of them in a single game. Yet he has the flexibility to choose which ones he uses depending on the circumstances during the game and doesn't have to make that choice upfront when drafting Army Cards. Plus it allows me to make a single version of the Mandarin instead of a bunch of different combinations. Saves me time while customizing and also while drafting armies.

Ok I just misunderstood you then. The tokens is an interesting idea and the best one so far to keep flexibility while keeping play not too complicated. Let me see if I get this straight...

I have a Card, call it X. X comes with 4 tokens and an ability card. The powers on the ability card could be anything such as...

Double Attack
Slither
Wounded Smash
Ice Shard Breath
Fireline
Counterstrike

Obviously the powers would be themed according to the unit, but bear with the example. Then anytime the X is attacking/defending/moving/anything that has to do with X I could trade in a token to recieve a power for just that brief moment. That sounds pretty cool, but I think it would be very difficult to price someone with many powers. The number of different situations he could be in that force different thing would be almost endless.

[Hauptman Totenkopf]

Now in the Mandarin example, would the 6 tokens indicate 6 'unlimited use' power rings, allowing you to use those 6 particular ringsfor the rest of the game.

The Batman style token system would be more like ammunition in a gun's magazine: When it's gone, it's gone. With the exampled dozen tokens, before the game you could stock your utility belt with 6 batarangs, 2 bat ropes, and 4 batwidgets. As you use your bat-tools, you remove the tokens from your separte ability cards. When they're gone, they're gone.

I would not eliminate the 'base' on-the-card powers, like 'I am the night' or whatever. the token powers would be expendable, consumables.

Like arrows. I've never seen Hawkeye go pick his up and reuse them.[/quote]

[Eclipse]

I know I've expressed this before, but I'm just not fond of the "build your own character" sets of powers for this game. I really think it detracts from the simple, straightforward, and fully designed aspects of the game that make is so easy to pick up and fun to play. I know the temptation, but I really feel trying to jam every single ability a character has ever possessed into the game takes more away from the personality of the character than it really adds. You can give a character 20 special abilities to encompass every skill they've ever possessed, but in the end, its more important to design a single, meticulously designed version of the character who actually exhibits the proper feel and personality in gameplay.

I'm all for one version of a character, who's powers are limited to the abilities that truly define them and make them interesting and unique. Discretion is the better part of valor, and all that part. A good character design knows what truly matters, and leaves the rest of the extraneous details on the cutting room floor. Short, simple, but brilliant.

[GreyOwl]

I have a Card, call it X. X comes with 4 tokens and an ability card. The powers on the ability card could be anything such as...

Double Attack
Slither
Wounded Smash
Ice Shard Breath
Fireline
Counterstrike

Obviously the powers would be themed according to the unit, but bear with the example. Then anytime the X is attacking/defending/moving/anything that has to do with X I could trade in a token to recieve a power for just that brief moment. That sounds pretty cool, but I think it would be very difficult to price someone with many powers. The number of different situations he could be in that force different thing would be almost endless.

In theory, that's it. However, I didn't envision using it for abilities that might be considered "intrinsic" to the figure, like Counter Strike or Wounded Smash. I thought of these abilities more as "peripherals" - weapons or equipment you carry around in limited amounts. In fact, I personally prefer calling them "peripheral cards" instead of "ability cards" to make this distinction clear. In reality, almost all of the abilites listed on a card like this would probably be special attacks. I wouldn't expect to put things like "Spider-Sense" on a card like this.

Now in the Mandarin example, would the 6 tokens indicate 6 'unlimited use' power rings, allowing you to use those 6 particular ringsfor the rest of the game.


No, the 6 tokens means "6 uses total". But whenever you use one of the rings, you can pick from any of the ten. Once you've used a ring ability 6 times, that's it, regardless of whether you used the same ring 6 times or 6 rings one time each, or some other combination. This way you can have the option to pick from any of the ten rings, keeping the character true to his comic book version, but not make him too overpowered for HS because he can never really use all of them.

The Batman style token system would be more like ammunition in a gun's magazine: When it's gone, it's gone. With the exampled dozen tokens, before the game you could stock your utility belt with 6 batarangs, 2 bat ropes, and 4 batwidgets. As you use your bat-tools, you remove the tokens from your separte ability cards. When they're gone, they're gone.


Mostly correct, but it's simpler than that. You don't choose how many batarangs, ropes, etc. you want. You have all of them available and a limited number of tokens. You can choose which one to use during the game, limited by how many tokens you have. Exactly the same as the example with the Mandarin's rings. Yeah, it's not as realistic but its simpler game play and you don't have to worry about managing how many of each you have left.


I would not eliminate the 'base' on-the-card powers, like 'I am the night' or whatever. the token powers would be expendable, consumables.
Like arrows. I've never seen Hawkeye go pick his up and reuse them.

Absolutely. Intrinsic abilities, like Flying, Counter Strike, Double Attack, etc. would all be on the main card. They don't make sense for the ability card, in my opinion.

I know I've expressed this before, but I'm just not fond of the "build your own character" sets of powers for this game.

I see where you're coming from. That's why I'm trying to keep this relatively simple and not allow you to pick different numbers of batarangs, flashbang grenades, etc. For the same reason, you can't pick and choose which specific abilities you want. The ability card comes with the figure and that's it.

It's also why you can't put abilities like Flying, Spider-Sense, etc. on the ability card. That should be something you either can or can't do, period. Basically, this idea was inspired by Morsbane's "Rod of Negation" where you have an item with a limited number of uses. I'm just suggesting expanding it a bit so the limited number of uses are distributed among several different items.

[Hauptman Totenkopf]

I don't disagree. I enjoy the streamlined simplicity; the 'essence' of a character in a few powers or less. But...

Sometimes the essence of a character is the consumable nature of their 'Bag-O-Trix', specifically, Green Arrow, Batman (I am referring to the Batman I think of, the one with the big yellow bat emblem on his chest and a utility belt, not that new, spooky, wanna-be-Wolverine/Clint Eastwood-in-a-cowl Batman) and Hawkeye, or other 'Hi-Tech-Wonders'. I feel that Heroscape's creators set a precedence with the Airborne Elite and their Hand Grenade power, a one-use-only (or limited use) power.

I'd keep it very limited to specific characters. I'd also play-test the sweet jesus out of it to make sure it works.

[GreyOwl]

Yes, I wouldn't use this for all, or even most, customs. Specific ones I had in mind were Green Arrow, Green Lantern, Batman, maybe Robin, Iron Man, and the Mandarin. Possibly Hawkeye, but for a while he switched to "no trick arrows", so I might just stick with that version of the character.

[IAmBatman]

I'm with Eclipse on this one - it's good enough for me to have multiple versions of different characters (which will be cropping up anyway) to represent the characters, and just keep all the characters on cards. Tokens could come into play, just like they do on standard Heroscape cards, but I'd hate to see people going buck wild with them, b/c, IMO, it would get really confusing, really fast.
Another project that I say "more power to ya" on, but that doesn't really interest me personally. I have enough on my hands just making (and perfecting!) all the good old normal custom cards I want to do!

[GreyOwl]

Yeah, I see where you guys are coming from and I agree that it's not something that should be applied on a large scale to most customs. But for guys like the Mandarin, it didn't make sense to me to only have some of his rings and not others, yet having unlimited access to all ten just sounded crazy, too.

[IAmBatman]

I would agree that it sounds useful for a guy like Mandarin. Equipment cards also come in handy for these types of things with a limit on the card for how many powers you can use at once.

[GreyOwl]

So can your equipment cards be used by anyone or can they be restricted to only one figure?

[Eclipse]

Yeah, I see where you guys are coming from and I agree that it's not something that should be applied on a large scale to most customs. But for guys like the Mandarin, it didn't make sense to me to only have some of his rings and not others, yet having unlimited access to all ten just sounded crazy, too.

Even then, the 10 rings aren't all that necessary to state individually. At least half of them are various forms of ranged attacks and are pretty well summed up by the Range/Attack stat. People tend to forget that normal attacks are often just as super and shiny as the Special ones. Iron Man doesn't need a "Repulsar Blast Special Attack" to fire a beam out of each hand when he attacks.

[IAmBatman]

So can your equipment cards be used by anyone or can they be restricted to only one figure?

I usually have them restricted to one figure - the only ones I've really done it for so far are Green Lanterns, though.
That said, the Kryptonite cards (which need some reworking) are available for anyone to use.

[GreyOwl]

So if they're restricted to just one figure (usually) then I think we're essentially talking about the same thing. I'm just using tokens to keep track of the limited number of uses.

[IAmBatman]

Yep, pretty much sounds like it. I think it's a lot easier to have the equipment card built into the cost of the original card. I'm trying not to have too many like that, though.
Oh, forgot, Lex Luthor also has an add on Battlesuit, that actually costs more than he does.

[GreyOwl]

Even then, the 10 rings aren't all that necessary to state individually. At least half of them are various forms of ranged attacks and are pretty well summed up by the Range/Attack stat. People tend to forget that normal attacks are often just as super and shiny as the Special ones. Iron Man doesn't need a "Repulsar Blast Special Attack" to fire a beam out of each hand when he attacks.

If you're just looking at the range and attack value, then you're correct. But there are some figures that are resistant to fire, ice, explosive attacks, etc. where the different options might make a difference.

[Eclipse]

Even then, the 10 rings aren't all that necessary to state individually. At least half of them are various forms of ranged attacks and are pretty well summed up by the Range/Attack stat. People tend to forget that normal attacks are often just as super and shiny as the Special ones. Iron Man doesn't need a "Repulsar Blast Special Attack" to fire a beam out of each hand when he attacks.

If you're just looking at the range and attack value, then you're correct. But there are some figures that are resistant to fire, ice, explosive attacks, etc. where the different options might make a difference.

Heroscape generally doesn't have any sort of elemental system like this. Every once in a while a custom comes along that avoids "attacks that imply fire damage", but I'd never consider them a well worded ability for the game. The name of a special ability is just for flavor and should never be used to alter damage types or otherwise imply how the power works. The only thing that should limit abilities are the clear, database driven qualifiers (race, height, size, class, unique/common, hero/squad, personality, general and maybe someday homeworld).

[GreyOwl]

I think it's a lot easier to have the equipment card built into the cost of the original card.

That's the conclusion I came to as well. No cost for the extra card, and just include the cost for the main figure.

[GreyOwl]

Heroscape generally doesn't have any sort of elemental system like this. Every once in a while a custom comes along that avoids "attacks that imply fire damage", but I'd never consider them a well worded ability for the game. The name of a special ability is just for flavor and should never be used to alter damage types or otherwise imply how the power works. The only thing that should limit abilities are the clear, database driven qualifiers (race, height, size, class, unique/common, hero/squad, personality, general and maybe someday homeworld).

True. HS includes elemental effects only through the terrain, like the Lava Resistant and Slither abilities. But sometimes this leads to seeming innaccuracies, even though I know the designers probably did it intentionally to keep the game simple. Things like how Obsidian Guards aren't harmed by lava, but they are by Mimring's fire breath. If these can be addressed in customs to make the characters more "accurate" without disrupting game play and making it too complex, I don't see an issue with it. Not that it should always be done. For example, I made my Human Torch custom resistant to flame attacks, but I did no such equivalent for Iceman being resistant to ice attacks. It just depends how much it would complicate the figure and what benefit you would derive from it. This is very similar to how Toxic Skin doesn't affect Soulborgs (even though that is based on species, as you pointed out).

For the special attacks, like the Mandarin's rings, I think there's more than just range and attack value to differentiate them, even without introducing the elemental effects. Things like how many figures are affected, whether line of sight is necessary, does it affect friendly figures or not, does it affect the figure using it or not, etc.

[Eclipse]

True. HS includes elemental effects only through the terrain, like the Lava Resistant and Slither abilities. But sometimes this leads to seeming innaccuracies, even though I know the designers probably did it intentionally to keep the game simple. Things like how Obsidian Guards aren't harmed by lava, but they are by Mimring's fire breath. If these can be addressed in customs to make the characters more "accurate" without disrupting game play and making it too complex, I don't see an issue with it. Not that it should always be done. For example, I made my Human Torch custom resistant to flame attacks, but I did no such equivalent for Iceman being resistant to ice attacks. It just depends how much it would complicate the figure and what benefit you would derive from it. This is very similar to how Toxic Skin doesn't affect Soulborgs (even though that is based on species, as you pointed out).

For the special attacks, like the Mandarin's rings, I think there's more than just range and attack value to differentiate them, even without introducing the elemental effects. Things like how many figures are affected, whether line of sight is necessary, does it affect friendly figures or not, does it affect the figure using it or not, etc.

But that's my entire point. You can give him 10 different special attacks if you wish, all slightly different in function and ability, but you're probably not going to get a ton of use out of all 10 of them. It's far better to use one or two character defining abilities and then lump the remaining abilities into a more general power that embodies the nature of the character.

Its just a matter of proper game design. If you give too much, you're either going to wind up with a character that is too powerful or a character with a lot of unnecessary abilities. Considering the average unit only takes about a 6-10 turns over the course of a game, the likelyhood of making adequate use of more than 3 to 5 abilities is pretty slim, especially if they are all variant special attacks. More importantly, the character just won't play consistently and develop the proper personality in battle, which is critical for giving them the proper feel.

[GreyOwl]

I understand, but he won't ever be able to use all 10 attacks. He may have 10 listed, but only get 4-6 tokens (I haven't decided the exact number yet). Besides, this is not something meant for every figure. It should actually be quite rare that a figure needs/gets this treatment. But I thought for the Mandarin, it was worth it. His entire defining characteristic is the ten rings and making a custom of him without all ten seemed "off" to me. It would be like making a Superman custom and leaving out the Flying ability. You can leave out some of his other powers, but he's gotta have flying. :) But I understand what you're saying, which is why I wouldn't recommend making most customs this way. It's a special case suited for only a few.