The Social Dynamic of gaming.

[skyknight]

I want to ask a question that has long bothered me. I have thought about posting this a hundred times and then always refrained because I was not sure if the question would be handled maturely. I am going to give it a try but I would ask that everyone who participates please keep this easy going and no slurs or I will ask admin to instantly delete it.

As some of you know, I have been alot of places and seen alot of things. I am 32 soon to be 33 and I have seen more than most people will in their entire life. Not bragging, just a fact. I finished high school, was in college for four years, travelled around the country with a rugby team for a couple more years and then spent six years in the armed services. I now run a winery in upsate NY. The reason I post my background is because I have met an awful lot of people and there is this one statistic that keeps popping up. Now the common denominator for many of us old guys was Dungeons and Dragons. I think that is what brought many of us here in a roundabout sort of way. When I played D&D back in the day, it was very uncool. I do not know how things are today,but back then you were lookin for trouble if you were a gamer. I was one of those rare critters who walked a line between geekdom and jockhood. I was rather good at sports so it kinda saved me in this catagorey. Many were not able to walk this line. I had alot of jock friends in High scool who I knew would have played if they would not get labelled, the pressure was far to much. Anyways this gaming group was primarily composed of middle class white kids down the line. when I was younger I attributed this to living in a small town predominately white in nature. I do not think that is quite true though. We did have one Indian guy who would pop in a little bit though not all the time. So then I would wonder, Is TSR somehow marketing to this group, all their pics were at first predominately of white guys fighting dragons and trolls, later they came out with some oriental stuff, but I do not believe it was overly embraced by the community.
Well anyways when I got to college gaming was a little easier to do. None of my rugby friends really played but I did now have some "cooler" guys in the groups. We would drink and play Heroquest all night , a little D&D but not near as much. Same thing, mainly composed of middle class white kids. Now the college I went to was pretty diverse and I hung out with alot of minorities. I had one friend who was a Turk and he would jump in every now and then. But for the most part their was no interest. Granted I did not go out of my way to drag these guys in, but then I did not drag any of the white guys in either.
6 years in the Army. Again stereotypes are blurred a bit here as well. You can be a casual gamer in the military and generally not get to much flack. This was the time of my life I had more dealings with other races than any other in my life. My best friends were white, black, Hispanic, asian. If you ever want a template of how the worls should be you need to spend some time in todays military. There are still some bigots in the service,, but for the most part, that crap is left behind. It was one of my favorite things about the Army. Now in this case we are all makin about the same cash, there is diversity everywhere and still it was pretty much the white guys throwin Magic and playin D&D. I did not play D&D in the army much but I knew alot of guys who did. It always comes back to the same people.
I guess my question is why? Is it that more rural area kids play games, I don't think that is true. I know some will say it is an economic thing, though when I was a kid I earned money to buy my gaming gear and didn't blow my cash on tapes and things. Also I came from a small town, and generally minorities in NE United States who live in a small town are amny times doctors or of high standing in the community. So these kids had more money than I did in lots of cases. I just do not understand why these games seem to appeal to predominately white middle class kids, some asians, and a few Indians now and then. What is it?
As i mentioned in my first line this is not meant to be duragatory in any manner, if you cannot post intelligently on this subject I ask you not to post at all please. I am just hoping that some of you guys have a few ideas on this, being from different places around the country and all. Who knows maybe I am wrong on this but I do not think so. I am curious to see what others think.

[Oprime]

Im not trying to sound racist or make stereotypes, but different races have different "tastes" in things.

Take sports for instance.
Nascar: fanbase predominatly whites and rednecks
NBA: fanbase Predominatly african americans and inner city minorities

It is an interesting question though.

Another point may be that minorities feel they have enough trouble "fitting in" or being accepted.
Maybe they ,conciously or not, choose to not associate with a group(gamers) that have another negative stigma to them.

[netherspirit]

How about some paragraph breaks? My eyes are starting to bleed....

[CupidsArt]

I would say it comes from the parents. Each child learns from his/her family, by that I mean what the family does.

Lets stereotype here.
the 30-40 generation is coming out of the 60's and 70's where the mindset changed to fun. Where as the 40's-50's based everything around Work and rules. Now I know that many groups were a part of the 60's and 70's, but for minorities things were a little more dificult.

A great deal of the the "Lesser Races" idea was still strong so many Hispanic, Black and Native American families became concentrated on work again. (why you see more white hippies) Small town young adults had to take responsability again if they wanted to survive so many went back home.

The inner city held a similar direction but found there to be more of a struggle. Jobs weren't as easy to come by and the money made wasn't nearly as significant as a less congested area.

So whites worked but were still able to hold onto fun (Embracing Games) where the indoor mindset became more and more strong. (75-85)

Hispanics and Native Americans in northern parts of the country still had stereotypes to get past and much like a Black family work became the mindset. Fun and Games still existed but in a different way (outside)

Black families also have their past to contend with. Much of the time being constantly brought up again and again, either by an ignorant bigot or a relative hurt by past events.

Native Americans and Hispanics have had a similar pains in their past but with the NA's being nearly wiped out and Latin America being so close these issues were forgotten.

So the mindset for the Black community was be BETTER, better than everyone else. It's that drive that fuels the athletic stereotypes and gives us great black sports players.

That isn't to say that Whites, Asians, Native Americans or Latinos can't play sports I'm just saying in general.

That leaves us with a more laid back white community and with corporate america gearing everything towards this same community we end up with white kids that get ahold of every new thing. Indoor activities sell more and are easier to market to kids that don't fit into certain areas.

Athletic equipment will last a long time and plays the same again and again. You don't see jocks going out and buying a box of Wizkids Basketballs in hopes to get the new Jordan Flashball, :wink:

Also there comes into play those folks who were called GEEK, NERD or DORK. Why, because they stayed at home, because they found more enjoyment in school and education than sports?

There will always be exceptions but I believe that we are blessed with gaming because my parents generation and the generation before just wanted to have fun....IMO.

[geddy lifeson]

How about some paragraph breaks? My eyes are starting to bleed....

I agree...I stopped reading, not because of the topic but for the sheer fact it is hard to follow, especially on a Mon morning with 4 hours of sleep.

[markwars]

Very interesting topic, skyknight.

And an even more interesting response, CupidsArt.

I'm going to mentally chew on this one for a few hours before I respond. I want to fully collect my thoughts because this is a very weighty conversation.

[Oogie_Da_Bruce]

Growing up in Long Beach-CA, I was surrounded by diversity and acceptance (well more so than the deep south). I am 31 and did the jock/nerd thing (Basketball and Dean's List) and had friends of every make and model.

The common denominators for my game groups were intellegence and imagination, over race and income. Every kid at school/college had some bit of disposable income and it was more a question of what they were into and what they wanted to spend it on.

I came from a very low income household and made my way through college via grants, loans, scholarships, and good old fashion work. Often times I would put a little OT to make sure I had enough cash to get a case of MTG Cards and still have enough left over to get tickets to the next big concert.

With all that said, my first gaming group was comprised of 2 white guys, 2 mexican guys, and 2 half white/half mexican guys (brothers).

The SoCal HS League has a few white guys, a few black guys, and a few mexican guys, no asians though.....

So my short answer to your post would be,

"I think that these games appeals to nerds of all race, creed, color. Well, this is at least my experiance growing up and playing in Southern California."

[LilNewbie]

I didn't have much of a gaming group in High School. Just some kids around the neighborhood. Fortunately, I was "in" with both the Jocks and Geeks groups and never had any stigma or issues with social abuse because of my gaming activites (it also helped that I was not a small individual and had a decent dry whit that helped diffuse situations...sometimes.)
In college, I made some friends who held a weekly gaming session and I joined them. We had different economic and racial groups represented in that group. I still keep in contact with all of them even though we all went to different parts of the country. We played almost every game out there during this time from D&D, 40K, WFB, Warzone to long Friday night Classic Battletech sessions (so many great memories there!)
Some common denominators in that group were we all attended college. We all had full-time jobs in the tech industry (code-slingers, server admins and network admins...yeah we were all geeks.) At first, we all had some disposable income since we all were unmarried. Some of them got married and would start to cut back on spending but we all shared or helped in costs for purchases (buy bulk and split costs, etc.) We had one guy who was heavily into martial arts (he wasn't obnoxious about it though.) The rest were getting there black belts in computer gaming. :D

Newb.

[ultradoug]

I want to ask a question that has long bothered me. I have thought about posting this a hundred times and then always refrained because I was not sure if the question would be handled maturely.


:( *walks away*

[Fallen Templar]

from years of playing xbox live i've learned not to sing online you get called very bad names

[K/H_Addict]

hmm....this really got me thinking. I have a play group of 5 people (including myself). All 5 of us are white, and living at poverty level. I have 3 more players that are in the process of trying to get Heroscape, 2 of which are white, living at poverty level. The other is a good friend of mine whom i met through the MCJROTC program at my school; he is predominately black, but sometimes people wonder about his race. Some of his friends call him a "Blaxican" (you have to actually know him to understand why; i cant even begin to explain this). I have tried to get more black people to play, but the just dont find it interesting.

My opinion: I think, like Oprime said, each sport/activity has its own fanbase. Typically, black people are more athletic than whites, so they tend to lean more towards sports. My friend Josh and i are kinda like that. We are both pretty athletic, but i grew up with asthma, so i do not like sports nearly as much as him.


basically, i think it is all in one's taste.

[bushi96]

I wonder if its just a numbers thing- Gamers are a minortiy and well, minorities are also minorities. So you would have to have a minority within a minority population to get a gamer. As I was growing up I could count on one hand the amount of blacks I was exposed to. A few more Indians and Orientals. Out of all the white people I knew only a handful were gamers. So if the odds were 100-1 to make a gamer and I knew 1000 white kids, we got 10 gamers. I only knew 50 minorities, so we only got 1/2 of a minority gamer (but he played a mean dwarven axeman!).

[markwars]

Yeah...there aren't a lot of Black Jewish Lesbian gamers.....coincidence or conspiracy? :?:

[reapersaurus]

Yeah, I think it's much more of a "geek thing" than it is an economic or race thing.

There are geeks (nerds, dorks, whatever) in every race and tax bracket.

I worked with computer instructors, and the amount of collected geekery (I'm sure you can imagine) was off the charts. There were guys (and a couple gals) of many races that were interested in these things.

I don't know if it's simply an intelligence thing - it's just more what you're interest is in. While people of higher IQ are more interested in books, and complicated games, as a rule, there are plenty of intelligent people who don;t like these things.

I DO think that playing these kinds of games does require a certain level of reading comprehension, and thought process, since anyone who can't do that well, probably won;t be interested in reading rule books and learning new rules systems.

[skyknight]

All very good comments and exactly what I was looking for. Thank you everyone for taking this thread seriously. I just wonder about this sometimes.
I sometimes wonder if TSR is not responsible for this whole thing. I know there were games before D&D but none with the distribution of D&D. I wonder sometimes if that original marketing into a vast gaming world sucked in a predominately white audience. I do not remember seeing them showing anything but white kids playing. Even the cartoon some years later had 1 black girl out of like 7. Even most of the art pictured white knights and sorcerers. I am not sure but I wonder if TSR struck the original template of who gamers were? I just find it an interesting Dynamic.

[allskulls]

Interesting.

I grew up in South Central L.A. and went to a half Black, half Mexican school (one year a White family was enrolled for a few months). I moved to Riverside (just before the RK riots) and was then exposed to the White crowd.

What should be noted here is that I am mixed...Black, Spanish, Italian, Blackfoot Indian, and French. It's funny, in L.A. my family dealt with racism from the black community and in Riverside a little from the White community. Not really bad stuff but it was evident.

In high school these kinds of games intrigued me but no one I hung out with would get into it. I was the type that got along in most all circles but I was drawn mostly to the b-ballers and the party crowd (was into the dance battle scene). I think I did have an embarassment thing about hanging with the so called gamer geeks (my loss).

Now, at 31, I have no problem being labeled whatever.

As for why Black folks might not seem as interested as Whites, I think it boils down to exposure. So far I have introduced HS to 6 Black friends not including the MS I bought for my 4 nephews. Thay all love it. Not as much as I do, but that's the gamer in me. My affinity towards these type of games is not attributed to any one of my many races.

[Revdyer]

For me, sky, I've played games since I was a little kid. In High School (class of 1966) it was mostly chess, bridge, and Risk. Then, in college, we played all kinds of board games. What changed things for us was the publishing of The Lord of the Rings, the beginnings of D&D, and stuff to smoke while playing and thinking about orcs and elves in flowing gowns (not the guy elves, no).

This was in Virginia and Tennessee. Indoor games were played mostly by white guys. When we went outside, we played with black kids who were generally better at basketball than we were.

Gaming, other than the occassional game of bridge, pretty much disappeared from my life in seminary. There just was not time while working on the doctorate.

Then, with two daughters, in the late 70s and early 80s we went from a Pong machine to an Odyssey, to an Atari 2600, then to a Vic-20, Commodore 64, and on to PCs. While I used the computers for w/p, they were really bought as game machines. Of course, we had Nintendo too.

By the end of that, the girls were grown, married, out of the house. And as I entered my mid-50s I found I had some time on my hands again. My career pace had slowed. I was getting older. And then I got sick. Part of my therapy was to improve the "fun factor" in my life. I accidently found HeroScape and it brought back a lot of the old D&D feeling, plus the minature ACW gaming I'd been doing for years with my brother-in-law. I intentionally asked a couple of people, acquaintances, to come and play HS. They got hooked too and are now my best friends. It's still white guys, though.

In the early 90s I was on the faculty of an historically African American college. (English and Philosophy & Religion) The guys there played a lot of bball, but about the only indoor games in the dorms were cards. I'm not sure that says anything at all except about cultural norms.

I introduced my brother-in-law to HS, and his Hispanic youth group guys are crazy for the game.

One thing about HeroScape (like D&D) is that it tends to be more than a game. It becomes a hobby. (For some, a life-style?) No one would do that with Clue, although there are a few Monopoly and Scrabble addicts, I know. But I think about HS even when I'm not playing. I don't do with with Yahtzee.

Now I play with my grandson, too; when I can pull him away from the X-box.

So, that's the little perspective from one of the old guys.

[django]

i wouldn't say these games are being marketed to white people they just have more access to them if you live in a nice place you have access to nice stuff. i have to drive about 1 hour one-way to get to gaming store i have to jump on the train and when i get off walk about 1 mile to get to gamers paradise downtown that's the closest store.there are no game shops in the ghetto but if they were believe me there would be more mexican,black,indian,and everybody else i leftout gaming i always see little kids running around with a hand full of yugioh cards playing each other these cards are like $3 a pack that can get pricey but they still buy them and play but that is the only game(or whatever card game is hot)a lot of these kids have access to we need game shop in the hood.

[stay_golden_PONYBOY]

My 2 cents…

I believe it all comes down to being introduced to a game. When I was in Iraq, I went on a lot of Civil Affairs missions and even kids in very rural Iraq knew what a pokemon was.

On a couple trips I ran into kids playing w/ cheap plastic figures (usually soldiers or robots). They would set up 2 armies facing each other and take turns shooting at them with rubber bands, rocks or marbles. When I saw this I got all excited because it looked like a primitive game of Crossbows and Catapults. I always played a few rounds with the kids and gave them a dollar or a handful of candy whenever I lost.

This got me thinking and I started bidding on a few big lots of Crossbows and Catapults stuff on eBAY. I ended up winning this huge box of stuff and started going to the youth center inside the green zone and got these kids all spun up on the game.

Some of the funny things I noticed are: kids that normally wanted to play soccer were starting to enjoy the game so much that they were coming in with “customized” walls and “reinforced” defense pieces. They also refused to play the Viking figures and referred to them as the “Persians”. I had to ask an interpreter about that one and I guess it dates back hundreds of years with Iraq and Iran warring with each other. Anyway…

My opinion is that if introduced to a game, and if it’s enjoyable, and offers a challenge, and is available, most people, regardless of ethnicity will join in.

All hail the Barbarian hordes!

[toddrew]

They also refused to play the Viking figures and referred to them as the “Persians”. I had to ask an interpreter about that one and I guess it dates back hundreds of years with Iraq and Iran warring with each other. Anyway…

My opinion is that if introduced to a game, and if it’s enjoyable, and offers a challenge, and is available, most people, regardless of ethnicity will join in.

...and it doesn't offend cultural sensibilities ;) Great post, ponyboy!

[InfinityMax]

I'm not sure on this one, but I tend to think the differences are in personal experience, not actual ethnic or socioeconomic divisions.

One of the finest illustrator/game designer guys I ever worked with is black. I used to trade D&D stuff with some Arab guys. At the first HS tourney I attended, second place went to a Mexican kid. But I just don't know that many minorities, so I end up gaming with white people.

Now, there is obviously some division, racially speaking. Consider this site - how many black guys do we have here? Since we can't see your skin, we obviously have no idea if you're black or not, but I've met a lot of these dudes and they are, for the most part, adult white folks.

So what's that all about? I think it's racial stereotype. White people are, according to stereotypes, rich and dorky. Black people are cool and street-hardened. Black guys might play games, but they tend to be the kinds of games that don't get them mocked by other black guys. White people, on the other hand, are already supposed to be dorks, so they don't care.

These stereotypes may be just that - stereotypes - but they are enforced by the people to whom they apply. For instance, if you are a black kid, and every rapper on the planet tells you how you have to fight, hate cops and eat barbecue, you're not likely to sit in your mom's basement and play D&D. White guys have Weezer, who sing about Kitty Pryde and the X-Men.

But to further contradict myself, one of my good friends is a huge black guy who kicks a ton of ass at Halo, and we meet up regularly, either on line or in person, to play. His favorite Halo name is Colossus, because he's one of the biggest comic geeks I've ever known (both metaphorically and literally - he's like 6'6" and built like a brick outhouse).

So the stereotypes exist, but they do not apply to everyone. It is up to the individual to break the stereotype, and that doesn't happen as often as it should.

[allskulls]

Well put, IMax.

This phenomenon can not be explained without proper exposure to the differing cultures in question. It's easy to think mainly White guys like this game when those are who you associate with (or meet from this site). I would admit, being intimate with Black culture, miniature gaming is not high on the list of past times.

But this goes back to my earlier post regarding exposure to the games and could validify Sky's observation regarding miniature game marketing towards White males. It does make a difference to see Black kids on commercials and gaming marketing material. Don't believe me? Take a look at all the "Black Jesus" pictures out there.

[shakey_snake]

For the record, I'm pretty sure Jesus was Jewish, neither white nor black.

[0rbital]

When I was a kid playing D&D (middle school through early high school) it seemed to be a pretty good mix of races that were fans and played. Now when I got older and started going to MTG tournaments that's a different story. Mostly fat white people dressed up in costumes :D

[allskulls]

For the record, I'm pretty sure Jesus was Jewish, neither white nor black.
Thank you. And I thought he was from Malibu. :roll:

[markwars]

Also for the record, I'm pretty sure Jesus didn't play miniature games.

[toddrew]

Also for the record, I'm pretty sure Jesus didn't play miniature games.

I don't know... I think the Gospel accounts of His episode with the money changers at the temple was cover for his reaction to no shield roll while defending with DW9K during a game with some Pharisees.

[allskulls]

Also for the record, I'm pretty sure Jesus didn't play miniature games.

I don't know... I think the Gospel accounts of His episode with the money changers at the temple was cover for his reaction to no shield roll while defending with DW9K during a game with some Pharisees.
Dang rule lawyers!

[ultradoug]

so much for the maturity level.
(says the most imature poster)

[Agent Minivann]

Interesting thread. I think I'd have to say I agree with many of the posts.

I don't think that it is necessarily marketing to/at certain demographics in the TSR case. I think the only marketing I was aware of was the cartoon, and it was nothing like the game in most ways. I think there was an odd commercial for the D&D (not AD&D) game that I saw once or twice, but I didn't get any kind of feel for the game from the marketing. I got a better feel for the game of Sorry from the one or two commercials that I saw (never played the game Sorry until we got the thing this past year). There was nothing that said that I would even remotely like the game from the commercial (D&D here). I ended up trying the game because of kids I knew. Once that happened I was playing IN high school and on weekends for a few years.

Outside of exposure from friends, I think it boils down to a lot of the things that have been said. There are the likes and dislikes that come from the culture you are raised in. There is the fact that these types of games appeal to the analytical/high IQ types. What I completely agree with and find very interesting is the numbers thing. If it will only appeal to a small portion of the white population, then it will probably appeal to a similarly small group of whatever other population. If that one is a smaller population then the gamers there will be even smaller. If culture is a complication variable here that number gets even smaller.

Speaking of culture, is the anecdotal lack of Asian gamers due to the technophile nature of Japanese culture?

I guess the cliff notes version is that it is due to exposure, culture, and numbers.

On a side note, allskulls that rules lawyers comment was funny on so many levels. :lol:

[skyknight]

I agree, there have been some great points made here. This thread has actually changed my perspective on this question a bit. Usually I am a hard headed SOB and hard to get me to change my mind on things. This thread on the other hand has some great posts. I thought Django takin about kids in the hood playing Yugioh was a good point as well. I mean no doubt about it, gaming is still generally a white male thing, but I do believe what some people said about racial norms and customs really does play into this. Great thread guys, and yes the rules lawyer thing was funny :D

[Revdyer]

What Agent Minivan wrote raised a thought with me. I think my introduction to complex games was through an Avalon Hill game named "Tactics II" in about 1962. I was introducted to the game by a friend. There was not advertising, no store displays, just a friend's invitation.

I suspect that much of HSs popularity is similarly due to word of mouth and personal invitation. The television ads surely bring in some business and sell some units. But personal exposure has to be a bigger factor in bringing in new players/owners/buyers?

I got the game because I needed a knight figure for a children's sermon and then got intrigued by the whole game. Then I got hooked to the extent that I bought MSs for my grandson, brother-in-law, and a friend. They all play now. Guess it's the missionary in my blood <grin>.

How did you first hear about or get exposed to HeroScape? I think that may be a significant factor in the sociological dynamics of the playing population.

[allskulls]

How did you first hear about or get exposed to HeroScape? I think that may be a significant factor in the sociological dynamics of the playing population.
This should probably be a poll question.

I saw the commercial when it first came out and thought it looked cool but did not think it would compare to Heroclix. I would see it at TRU all the time. My son kind of drifted from Clix and I decided to get HS for him last Christmas (thinking it would be more for the kids). I got hooked and only played Clix twice since I became a Scaper, hence my sig. :wink:

[Revdyer]

I went ahead and put this up as a poll. Thanks for the idea, allskulls!

[RobWeaver]

Also for the record, I'm pretty sure Jesus didn't play miniature games.

Jesus may not have, but I've always considered the prophet Ezekiel to be the first recorded miniature wargamer. According to Ezekiel Chapter 4, God commanded him to make a model of Jerusalem under siege. Unfortunately for Ezekiel, dice hadn't been invented yet, leading to some interesting combat resolution actions.

[Revdyer]

Yeah, and Ezekiel played naked sometimes.

[Xotli]

To answer the question, I agree completely with bushi96: I think it's all statistics.

To toss in my own anecdotal evidence, I personally am the most non-minority person you could imagine--I'm white, Anglo, Protestant (in background), male, middle class, heterosexual. Sometimes I wish I had more diversity in there, but there you have it.

My D&D group (as I don't really have a HS group) is all white guys ... except for one. Who is, as we like to say, the whitest black guy we've ever met. :) Not that I think that's relevant. But he's getting married this year, and one day he'll have kids, and they will be gamers. No doubt in my mind on that one. So I think it's just the numbers thing.