Barracks Discussion Thread. Zaravi Question-11/23.

[justjohn]

PLEASE READ THIS FIRST. This will continue to be updated as needed. If you see something that was missed from the discussion, please let me know.

Ok, I have an idea, and I want to know how the rest of the custom community feels about this.

For over a year, the Halls have stood as a showcase for the best of the best in custom creation. I love the Halls, and the units that are in there deserve to be there. But, I think there is another niche that needs to be filled.

There are a lot of customs ½>ûï'ßv� „Nz}÷ÝÞŸw/¥�)æGò°c@Ò™ñxùàhðe`hgƒà@>�ø4ôSdhøB*H
(for a myriad of various reason) enough to be placed in the Halls. I think we all can say that not every custom created deserves a place in the Halls.

So I want to offer a new showcase: The Barracks: Units You Can Use Now Thread. The end result of this will be a catalog of sorts for solid units, that for whatever Í ÖÚ‚®¡×™É‰(µ³6*nkÔ¿£çÓm;5¡Ú‰ªÕQ‰¨*£]Œ&®z–�$¼ÓîH‰xpÿÚ

15 talented custom creators on these forums, and many of them have work which.

Now comes the part where the figures that will be showcased in this will actually be selected: Voting by you.

If you would like to see something to be nominated and voted on for The Barracks, pm me or InfinityMax. The first nomination—©
˜ð^§4-2ˆò ×¥Ðî@ôæžPO»‚÷Xª\20šªÐE\†>�è&ÛplH!¢Aî¼>ZÖ\r©uld like to see the just inducted custom creator nominate someone. I doubt there will be a waiting list for this, but customs will be placed for voting in the order they are recieved. If you like something, give the creator credit and nominate it.

Poll responses are:

Yes: This unit is balanced, good looking, and I would play with it/allow it to be played in my games.

No: I think this unit is over powered.

No: I think this unit is underpowered.

No: Other Reasons.

There is a little bit of opinion thrown into this poll, as I think it should be. Not everyone feels the same about every official unit, nor will they feel total unity toward a custom unit.

The voting poll process will run for 3 days, or until the unit recieves 20 votes. It must get at least 13 oks.

If it does not get at least 13 oks, the creator has the option of making changes to it (feed back provided via voting results), and the card will be placed last in line for review.

If we feel that this needs to be raised to reflect a more accurate poll, and there are people who want to vote, but do not get a chance to vote, raise the number of total votes/yes votes accordingly.

We could realistically add 1 unit per day into this showcase, if the custom community participates in this.

So what do you guys think? Is a showcase of great, but not the best, custom creations that are solid units, comprised of easily obtainable figures a good or bad idea?

I would especially like to hear from those active in the Halls voting and discussion, as well as the veterans of custom creation, and everyone else in general.

I don't want to go forward with this until there is pretty good support behind it.

Thanks for taking the time to read this lengthy post.

-john

[reapersaurus]

Hm!
Wonderful idea, first off. Anything that highlights good custom work is a great thing, in my eyes. And it allows interested people to go to one place to see good customs, instead of however they are doing it now that makes many people think "Most customs are unbalanced."

(As an aside, I just don't see that - most customs on here are verey balanced, and the rules work - where are people finding these cards (other than new creators) that are so hideously unbalanced that they complain about?)

Yes, I agree there is a niche for good cards that aren't the Best Of all made.
However, I don't know if there's a committed enough audience to get that many people involved in the nomination and voting for them.

Instead of using arbitrary numbers that may be off (I don't think we've gotten more than 30 people to comment on ANY customs efforts unless they were bribed to do so i contest prizes), maybe you just start it, nominate some, and see how many people contribute their thoughts and opinions, and then after awhile, get an idea as to how much the quorum is, and how many should be required to get the feature.

I don't know how much benefit this would provide, since IMO most customs fans could just find a creator who they like his stuff, and that should provide them with more customs than they can likely use in their battles, but from time to time people complain about not seeing good customs, so maybe this would be another way those people could discover soild works :?:

[Rhydderch]

I like the idea but as Reaper said 30 people is unreasonable. Even the Halls with their 3 judges sometimes cannot get a final vote promptly. Also I'm not sure why the figures have to be custom-made as that limits the number of customs to be reviewed.

[shakey_snake]

we tried something like this at HQ and nobody posted in it.

[justjohn]

Ry, the can't be custom made. I took out the double negative to make it more clear (didn't realize I had worded it that way, sorry).

I guess there are not as many active people. 20 votes/12-13 yeses sound more reasonable?

I guess I'm just attempting to take out the middleman, so to speak, and give people the ability to pop into 1 thread and see a lot of great customs from a myriad of creators in 1 fell swoop.

-jj

[InfinityMax]

I love the idea, JJ. 20 votes might be more feasible, but you might also just say, 'after three days, I tally up, majority wins.' I mean, if half the voters think it's good enough to use on their table, that's good enough for me.

Can the thread also include a commentary? Like, can we say, 'I like it, but it needs work, so I'm witholding my vote until the card changes'?

[justjohn]

I would hope that people will take the time to comment. I made it a vote option for the people that do have an opinion, but really don't feel like commenting.

I guess my question is, is there a way to change polls, erase them, and start new ones, once voting has ended on a custom, or will I just have to create new thread each time?

I'm getting a good feeling from this, I hope it goes off well.

Should I ask people's permission before taking their work to the block?

Thanks guys.

-jj

[Rhydderch]

I must have misread the figure requirement. Ok thats definitely fine. As for the votes its not as helpful to talk in terms of total votes - as Reaper said we usually fill a quorum of yes or no and move on from there. So its probably easier to talk in terms of a minimum yes vote.

Four to eight yes votes might be more appropriate along with a few judges so we ensure a person does not simply ask his friends to vote for his card. A unanimous no by the judges would serve to override the regular 4-8 yes vote.

Can we also pick a new name for the display thread? Official Unofficial is not catchy at all. The Best of... is taken by the Halls but I'm sure another name can be found.
____

By the way Reaper do you still consider the cards in the Halls to be the best of customs ever? Or more of a living history of highlights in custom history? I personally lean towards the latter but was curious about your thoughts since you made a clear delineation about the Best of All Made. Oh and any ideas for a new name for JJ's thread idea? You came up with the Halls if I recall correctly so maybe you can tap that brain of yours for another good display name =)

[netherspirit]

Over at the HQ it was called The Custom Unit Display Thread, or something to that effect. It was a place to put finished customs for everyone to get to in one place. The only posts in the thread were the images of customs.

The idea being that custom creators would still have their own thread for posting and getting comments making improvements and then whey they thought it was pretty well finished they would put it in the display thread.

But, like shakey pointed out it wasn't utilized to its full potential.

[justjohn]

The Best of the Rest?

[skyknight]

No repaints? :(

[netherspirit]

I think placing a restriction like that, on what can be put there kind of defeats the purpose doesn't it? It should be finished, serious playable customs.

I think, if something like this would be re-implemented here it should just be any finished customs. In the post would be the image, and a link to the creators thread for discussion.

[reapersaurus]

Ya, restrictions on a highlighted-for-exposure thread seems against its purpose. :shrug:

If it's good enough to be played at a majority of customs-user's table's, than it should be good to be displayed in this "Best of the Rest" thread (I like that name ) :)


Rhydd - I consider the Halls to be the best of the customs AT THAT TIME.
It is important to remember, that without Talos, without Grut Witch, etc, there would not BE these consistently-high-quality effrots that follow standard language that there is now.

It is a moving bar, because the community expects higher and higher precision, attention to detail, and crisp look as time goes on.
In the beginning, simply getting text on a card with a picture was enough to call it a custom unit.
And that's likely where it would have stayed, if it wasn;t for the continual efforts of many people to continually raise the bar and shoot for higher and higher quality efforts, that would fit in with the official units better.

[Euryon]

Great idea.
I may get on and make some customs without the high quality artwork that Lorax can do for me.
Maybe ill remake some of my customs in standard format with easily accessible figures....

[justjohn]

I really don't mean to be limiting, I'm just trying to avoid someone making an awesome custom, but the figure costs 30 dollars, so only a few people will ever play with (save the fact that they already own the mini). I think using a rare or customized figure for this is really limiting in itself.

That's why I don't think they should be eligible for this.

I can see maybe allowing rare figures, but definetly not customized figures.

In all honesty though, what percentage of the customs already on this forum would not be eligible? Maybe 20%?

This is something for the community as a whole, afterall, and if you guys really want to allow rare and modded figs, I guess they will be allowed.

-john

[skyknight]

repaints are not expensive

[justjohn]

But, you do have to have some skill to do them.

Some repaints are definetly easier than others, whose to draw the line on "that is an easy repaint" and "that is a difficult repaint."

I'm not trying to be mean, and I'm not trying to belittle anyone's efforts, as I've said before, repaints and mods are cool as hell, just not everyone can do them. For that fact, since they are limited in availabilty, they should not be eligible for a thread that I had intended to showcase solid customs that could be easily accessed and used by the community as a whole, in my opinion.

-jj

[reapersaurus]

I totally understand what your idea was, jj - and actually, it is slightly different from what I think most members are thinking of.

What was on HQ was simply a "post your latest finished custom here" - i don't think it was a very good central place to view quality customs, with little-to-no-noise/spam.

If it was to be done here, this suggested tweak of yours, jj, would be to have a voting bloc determine what gets featured as a quality custom work (but not necessarily Halls of Valhalla good).

What I think you were wanting to see, jj, is a sub-set of even those, featuring low-cost miniatures being used, therefore the easiest for people to try out, with the smallest $$$ entrance requirements.

Actually, thinking about many of them, I'd say that less than 33% of customs use cheap enough minis for most people to use.
This is because most cheap figs look bad. :(
For example, looking at my customs, 3 out of 9 of them have easily-accessible, cheapish minis. Some aren't even available. Why do I do this? Because for me, the game design comes first, the mini second.
Designers that look at a figure and then think up powers, frequently like the more expensive figures, especially the Rackham figures.

[InfinityMax]

I agree, JJ. It's a shame to block Skyknight's repaints - they are really cool - but if I'm reading you right, you want this for customs people can actually use. I'm not a horrible painter, but I don't love doing it, so I'm never going to be able to use Skyknight's repaints, because I'm not going to paint the figures to make it happen. On the other hand, if the custom is a Mage Knight figure, I may very well have it, and if I don't and can order it for a buck or two, I might go ahead and do that.

And having said all that, what about this, JJ - what if we divide the new thing into categories. Some people CAN mod a figure, or repaint, and might want to see those bitchin' customs. Agent Bale is a great example of this - she's playable and fun, but she's a repaint. Some people may not want to do the repaint, but for those who give it a shot, Agent Bale is fun.

By the same token, some people also have huge collections of Mage Knight figures, or they don't mind subbing in a proxy. So how about a third section for really good customs that require more hard-to-get figures. For example, I've really enjoyed using the Anubian Bodyguard, but that figure is a Reaper mini, and no way am I paying those prices and slapping on that paint job. So I sub in a different wolf-man figure, and I'm good to go.

I really love this idea, JJ. I've spent hours combing the albums, looking for decent, useful customs, and having them all in one place would be a godsend. I just think it would be a shame to leave anything out if it could genuinely be enjoyed by others. Hell, I'm not even sure about the requirement that the card has to look official. One of my absolute favorites customs, the SAS Commandos, only resembles an official HS card in its shape. But it's so playable, and so damned much fun, that it would be a shame to hide it. Plus it's a gorgeous card.

[justjohn]

Lots of interesting points.

Reaper, there are tons of cheap good looking minis, almost all of the D&D minis look at least halfway decent, hell, most look good. And $10 limit is pretty broad, in my opinion. Some of the newer mk rares fetch higher than that, as well as some of the huge and popular D&D rares, but for the most part, I would say 75% of both of those lines of highly used minis fall below, and in some cases way below, the $10.00 limit.

Figures looking good is a little bit more than half of a unit for me. I still don't own any Scots because I refuse to play with them. The last thing I want in this thread are great units with half assed Rebellion paint job figures staring at me from the card.

I dunno about it not mattering about cards not looking official. I guess it is up to the people to decide.

We can just bulk them all together. It will get too confusing if we have separate this and separate that.

I can see rare figures being used, as some would already have them, as well as repaints of existing hs figures. Can we draw a line about mods then?

I'm glad I have some people on board for this idea.

-jj

[ChaosChild]

I am going to have to agree with InfinityMax on this one. Multiple categories for different types of customs would be great.

Heroscape is my first miniatures game so, I don't have a bunch of commons from other games sitting around. I also don't have convenient access to inexpensive miniatures. A custom with an inexpensive mini from other game isn't any different for me than a sculpted from scratch figure because I would still just use a proxy.

I don't expect people to recreate the customs that I make. They are only Heroscape mods and repaints but, not everyone has the time or patience to do that. I post them here hoping that some of my ideas will spark their creativity and then they can make their own customs with whatever means they have.

So, JJ, you have a great idea. Just expand it.

[Rhydderch]

Rhydd - I consider the Halls to be the best of the customs AT THAT TIME.
It is important to remember, that without Talos, without Grut Witch, etc, there would not BE these consistently-high-quality effrots that follow standard language that there is now.


Cool. We agree: that is what I meant by a living history of the highlights in HS customs =)

As for the figure requirements I do not think the thread needs to be limited by figure availability or even categorized. Not everyone will find the same figure easy to get - for example I have found that I often cannot find so-called cheap MK figures because I do not have a credit card and no local shops sell the game. Heck I cannot even find the last 3 HS sets!

In other words no figure will really be easily available to everyone so I think it would limit the thread too much to use only easy to find figures. Instead I think one purpose of the thread can be to point out alternate figures for a custom. This has recently occurred in the Halls with both GB's Blix and Turtle's Knoll.

[reapersaurus]

This has recently occurred in the Halls with both GB's Blix and Turtle's Knoll.Ya, I was really hoping someone would make a variant Blix card, to provide greater access to the fun custom effort.

And I've been worried about the ease of access to a playable substitute so much that in my last custom unit, I searched for possible cheap pre-painted alternatives to the expensive-but-beautiful figure that the unit was designed for/around.

Oh - and I would vote against a seperate category - just a well-structured and participated "Quality Custom Units" thread that features good works, with a proclivity towards the easier-to-acquire-or-create figs.

[Fallen Templar]

I do have to disagree with a price range on figures. With ebay,google etc. any figure can be acuired for a decent price with a little bit of time and effort

[shakey_snake]

I don't see this working at all.
Too many people already have too many different opinions.

If you really just want to browse customs, that's what the user gallery is for. It's nice enough to generate Random files.

Although it would be nice to have separate user galleries for customs, so other things aren't mixed in. But I don't know if this can be done. Truth?

[Rhydderch]

I see no reason why it could not be done. The different opinions are about a single detail. Many of the HS projects online started with discussions on what the best method would be before they were implemented.

In my experience if someone starts a project with set guidelines some small changes might occur but otherwise most people will use those guidelines despite their differing opinions.

And I've been worried about the ease of access to a playable substitute so much that in my last custom unit, I searched for possible cheap pre-painted alternatives to the expensive-but-beautiful figure that the unit was designed for/around.

That was exactly the reason why I had not posted my Forsaken team from .NET Reaper! The Rackham figures I used are hard to find and would break the wallets of most people here - myself included. So I've been on the lookout for replacement minis.

It is another reason why I think figure suggestions is such a great idea. I've noticed many people who make customs with Rackham figures for the aesthetic value but very few people who have been able to get ahold of those figures. I mean I cannot use my own Forsaken team for lack of suitable miniatures. I need those figure suggestions!

[shakey_snake]

AT HQ, you'll remember that everyone seemed on board with the Custom units display thread idea, but there was a disagrement about what size pictures should be posted there. Eventually a line was drawn, but the end result was nobody posted in it.

[justjohn]

Well, hopefully that won't happen here.

[Agent Minivann]

I think that it would be a good idea to just have it be a finished customs thread/forum/whatever. Have the pic and link to creator's thread, as has already been posted, and then also include what figure/where from/cost etc. Each posting could start with a heading of Fig from different game, repaint, sculpt, etc. I don't see a whole lot of sense in having more than one thread for several different categories (the Halls being the exception). Maybe have the first post be some sort of Table of Contents of sorts, so you can look at the first page and see which page to go to for the one you want.

[InfinityMax]

Naysayers aside, I think this whole thing is a good idea. If we can skip over people dropping in and crapping on it, maybe we can decide whether we're including a wider variety of customs - non-standard cards, repaints, rare figs, or just sticking to easy and basic.

Once we decide that, let's start putting up cards for voting.

[netherspirit]

Why does there need to be a voting process?

Maybe I am missing something...I don't really understand the need for "voting" things into this new thread.

[justjohn]

Why does there need to be a voting process?

Maybe I am missing something...I don't really understand the need for "voting" things into this new thread.

Do you like every custom here? Do you think there are some customs you like that other people don't like? I'm sure it happens, not everyone has the same tastes.

If a forum majority thinks the unit is solid, it will get voted in, if not, it goes back to the drawing board.

Instead of having pages and pages of conversation, such as in the halls, and with a broad spectrum of voters, I think the best of the rest forum will be a broad offering of quality customs. If the custom community doesn't like them, they aren't going into the thread.

I think voting belongs in the thread.

[netherspirit]

Why does there need to be a voting process?

Maybe I am missing something...I don't really understand the need for "voting" things into this new thread.

Do you like every custom here? Do you think there are some customs you like that other people don't like? I'm sure it happens, not everyone has the same tastes.

If a forum majority thinks the unit is solid, it will get voted in, if not, it goes back to the drawing board.

Instead of having pages and pages of conversation, such as in the halls, and with a broad spectrum of voters, I think the best of the rest forum will be a broad offering of quality customs. If the custom community doesn't like them, they aren't going into the thread.

I think voting belongs in the thread.

Who does the voting? How many votes does it take to get into this "Best of the Rest" thread? I think you are trying make this more complicated than it needs to be.

There doesn't need to be ANY discussion in thread, that I agree with. People should just post their finished customs along with a link to their creation thread so other members can go there and discuss, if people feel it doesn't belong in the thread they ask the creator to take it down and work on it some more until it is finished.

I just don't see a need for any kind of voting. Its only going to make it more complicated and less people will be invovled.

[shakey_snake]

Welcome to visions of grandeur meets reality 101.


Hey JJ, you're going to need to compromise to see this thing happen and make it practical. Nether has some excellent points.
The one thing that I don't think you can count on is high amounts of community interaction.

[justjohn]

Who does the voting? How many votes does it take to get into this "Best of the Rest" thread? I think you are trying make this more complicated than it needs to be.

The people of this forum do the voting, poll style. All of that is covered in the first post, and was discussed earlier in this thread. 20 votes/3 days is the going limit, with 12-13 yeses to get into the Best of the Rest display thread.

I understand something like this (but totally different) was tried on HQ, and failed. This isn't anyone come in and plop down a custom you just made, this is custom makers selecting customs that they believe are solid customs, solid enough that they think other people should play with them.

I really don't see the complexity in it. A unit gets put up, it gets voted on. Either it is a well rounded/balanced figure that people think is good, and should be played with, or it isn't. Wash, rinse, repeat.

There are over a hundred customs on these forums. I think showcasing the best of those customs, ones that for whatever reason didn't get inducted in the Halls, but are still great units, deserve a place where they can be easily viewed in one place.

-jj

[InfinityMax]

Nether, the purpose here is to show off customs that people can actually use. I don't want to see every single custom ever. I've seen some truly horrid customs, and some that just don't have any business being on a game table, ever. If you just put every custom ever made into this thread, then why bother having the thread at all? Why not just let people peruse the galleries?

Voting is just a way to see if a majority of people like the unit. Voting is open to everyone, so Nether, if one of your customs is in the running, feel free to vote for it. Everyone else can vote, too. It's like a custom contest, but your only competition is 'no.' Once at least 20 people have voted, or if the damned thing has been posted for days with no activity, it's either added to the display thread or it drops out.

John, here's my take:

A) Any custom is valid for a vote, even if the creator already has 20 units in the thread, even if it's a Rackham mini, even if it's a repaint, even if it's an insanely difficult mod. People can always use a proxy.

B) The appearance of the card does not invalidate entry. There have been some very neat customs made on business-card size cards. There are a ton that are non-standard, but definitely awesome. You're robbing yourself if you refuse to use Euryon's cards, or Atmospro's, or Silverstoner's because they don't match the official standard.

C) Voting is done on a separate thread for each unit. Polls run 3 days, and then they close and the unit is in or out. We might petition an admin to help us out, so they can lock the threads and/or delete them, to keep from cluttering the site. We also never have more than 2 threads running at a time, to keep from having this little project take over the whole forum.

D) Finally, we have a display thread. It has the image of the card, a link to the creator's gallery, and a recommendation for the figure. If possible, we get an admin to lock and unlock it long enough to update it. If we can agree to how we make this work, I might even ask Truth to make me an admin just so I can administer that thread and dump the voting threads when they're a month or two old.

That's not a my-way-or-the-highway thing, those are suggestions. That's how I see this working the best, but I'm open to other ideas, especially since this isn't really my project.

[yagyuninja]

I like this idea. I'll do my best to vote whenever needed. We could do little voting badges like HeH had on HQ.

[netherspirit]

I might even ask Truth to make me an admin just so I can administer that thread and dump the voting threads when they're a month or two old.

If voting is to only last three days why leave them up for a month?

My next questioms are who nominates them? How are the voting threads started, and by whom? Can anyone start a voting thread for their custom, in which case it would be hard to keep it to 2 at a time.

If a voting system is how its gonna be then thats how its gonna be.

I can help out in anyway you guys need me to. Lord knows I am here enough...

[Agent Minivann]

C) Voting is done on a separate thread for each unit. Polls run 3 days, and then they close and the unit is in or out. We might petition an admin to help us out, so they can lock the threads and/or delete them, to keep from cluttering the site. We also never have more than 2 threads running at a time, to keep from having this little project take over the whole forum.

What about via PM. That would get the job done and not leave threads around that need to be deleted.

[Doc_Savage]

I like this idea - how about calling it...

Great Customs You Can Use Right Now

Most of I'Max's ideas are good.

However, there is a real need to have some figures that you can play them with. I think that you could have the following catagories in your poll for the figure.

- Yes

- No

- Yes, if you find a replacement figure that I can get and put its picture on the card.

I know I would do this if I could. For instance, I used Gatcha vending machine figures for my Liz Sherman and Abe Sapian characters. If asked, I could swap those out for some kind of alternate figures. It would be good if, in the voting thread, alternate figure suggestions were given.

Then, if voted in, the original and the alternate could be posted.

I agree that the card does not need to follow the official template. Many of HeH's designs do not have official looking cards, but they are very playable and printer friendly.

But the big questions are who picks the cards to be voted on and how many votes are a consensus. Do you say 15 'yes' votes and you're in, or 10 'no' votes and you're out. Being a positive guy, I say stick to the 'yes'.

Maybe the creators could PM the Voting Thread Supervisor with the cards of their own that they would like to submit. Then the VTS could post them, 2 or 3 a week for all eternity. I know that I would only submit a handful of cards and that most other creators would only submit their best.

[InfinityMax]

Nether, I was just thinking that if a creator got any decent feedback in a voting thread, he might want to be able to access it before it vanished. Maybe if it gets locked after voting and disappears a month later? I don't know, I'm making this up.

Doc, I think you've got some great points. I'm not certain we should require creators to modify their cards, though. I think what we should do is ask people to wait to vote until they see if the card changes to something they would use. If creators want to change their work, great. If they are bored, or tired, or just don't particularly like that custom, then let it slide out. I have a handful of customs I've created that I don't care if I ever see again.

And I think we should make JustJohn the superintendent. Creators (or whoever) PM cards to him, and he makes threads. If I can get Truth to give me admin status just for this, I can make sure the threads get locked or deleted when appropriate, and I can keep the display thread updated.

EDIT: Oh, and as far as when it's in - once it gets 20 votes, if it has - what, 12? 13? - yes votes, it's a keeper. Otherwise voting closes and it's out.

[Doc_Savage]

Doc, I think you've got some great points. I'm not certain we should require creators to modify their cards, though. I think what we should do is ask people to wait to vote until they see if the card changes to something they would use. If creators want to change their work, great.

The idea was that if the creators submitted the cards that will ultimately end up in this thread, they can let the VTS know if they should include the 'yes with a new pix' voting option. The card creator could use this for cards that don't have easy to get figures.

[Rhydderch]

Cool the ideas here are starting to converge a little. I like those ideas you threw out there Imax - just as long as you find a replacement for yourself if you get that HS job! =P

Sounds like we need to finalize the number of votes required and also how much figure availability will affect the system.

Personally I'm not sure the cards need to be modified. I think it might be good if alternate figures can be suggested in the display thread. People can still play with the old cards, sorta like how I have to use a regular Swog Rider because I have not been able to get a Nerak.

[skyknight]

I am just kinda sitting in the background nodding my head in one direction or the other when I see likes and dislikes. If you guys decide to do this, i will support it by voting as much as I can to help out. After all that will be the most important part is to get a few dedicated voters here. You can count on me in that aspect and if you decide to allow repaints I may even submit a few guys. :D

[InfinityMax]

OK, Doc, then I think that's a good idea. The creator has the option to say, 'no, I'm not going to change my card,' or 'yeah, what the hell.'

Rhy, I also don't think the cards need to change. I won't ever be hitting the 'Yeah, if you change the figure' button.

We need a name for it. Any suggestions?

How about the Valhalla Junior Varsity?

[Rhydderch]

Or maybe we can use a reference to another location within Valhalla?

Other possible suggestions from Annerios' HS Guide:

Wellsprings of Inspiration (or other Wellspring reference)
The Summoning Circle (Since each figure is summoned to Valhalla. Also the place where Jandar first summoned Sgt Drake)
Mountains of Kyrien (Since the minions there are battle hardened and strive to be their best)

I'd rather not have a specific reference to the Halls of Valhalla but really any name will work.

[Fallen Templar]

New Recruits
New Blood

I like the summonig circle name put out by rhydderch

[Rhydderch]

Maybe...

The Summoning Circle: New Recruits

or

The Summoning Circle: Draftable Customs Now

Or another similar sub-title so people know the point of the display thread is to show customs that are balanced and ready to be played.

[InfinityMax]

The Summoning Circle is fine with me. A subtitle is a good idea.

The Summoning Circle: Customs You Can Use.

[Annerios]

Other possible suggestions from Annerios' HS Guide:

The Summoning Circle (Since each figure is summoned to Valhalla. Also the place where Jandar first summoned Sgt Drake)

I just made that name up because they do not give it an official name. It just seemed to fit. :wink:

[skyknight]

I like The Barracks. Kinda makes me think of guys sittin on cots waitin to play :lol:

[underling]

I'd also like to add a minor request that probably has already been discussed. When a custom is posted it'd really be nice to know where the model or models being used came from (i.e. manufacturer and release set).
Thanks in advance, and keep those customs coming.
:)
Kevin

[Rhydderch]

We'll definitely be sure to include what figure is used for a card. Defeats the purpose if no one knows where to find a mini to use.

The rest of you... I think Barracks or Summoning Circle would both work. Funny to hear that its not the official name - good job on fooling us all Annerios! =P

Also did you guys see this?

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=970

Its an effort to organize the cards found in the gallery. Looks pretty cool. Maybe we can ask for an additional keyword to refer to cards that have made it into the Circle/Barracks. Maybe one for the Halls cards too.

Before I ask Raidor to make any alterations I wanted to see what you guys thought about it. Any thoughts?

[funrun]

I like this idea - how about calling it...

"Great Customs You Can Use Right Now"YES! This name is the most explanatory for browsing users who are unfamiliar with the concept for this thread. The other name suggestions fit well with a HS theme, but this thread title is like a magazine cover headline that screams "click me now cuz this thread is gonna be useful!" Definitely go with this one.

[justjohn]

The Barracks works for me.

Hopefully we can finish getting this fine tuned so someone can start submitting nominations for stuff to get voted on.

So far:
1)The Barracks or Circle of Summoning

2)Any card is allowed

3) 3 days/20 votes, which ever comes first. I would like to see this number alittle bit higher, since just on the first 3 pages, there are 20+ threads of people who actually have custom threads with cards. That isn't counting the handful here and there that have made customs, but never made cards, but I am unsure how many of those people are still around. But of those 20 people, most of them check these pages daily, and not to mention the random users who enter here. But then again, CA's contest only has like 36 votes, and it has been running for almost a week. Who knows.

4)13 "Yes" to get in

Do my original poll options work for everyone?

-jj

[shakey_snake]

hey, why don't we just come up with different names for the thread until the concept loses interest...

Or maybe we can create a poll about whether or not to have a poll about naming it or not.

Hey guys 60 posts and we're still trying to pick a name? Let's just pick something and go with it. We can always change it later.

[Fallen Templar]

hey, why don't we just come up with different names for the thread until the concept loses interest...

Or maybe we can create a poll about whether or not to have a poll about naming it or not. Lets get the polling running all in favor of naming I or nay

[funrun]

The Barracks or Circle of SummoningIf I saw either of these names in the view posts since last visit list I would have no idea what this thread was about and I'd prolly never click it.

I would really hate to see this great concept of a thread fall short of one of its main purposes of drawing in non-customs creators mainly because the thread title is too metaphorical. :screwy:

[funrun]

justjohn
It would be great if you could update the first post of this thread with all the ideas that have been revised. I skimmed through the thread but I am not sure what decisions have been made here.

[justjohn]

edited.

[InfinityMax]

Yeah whatever.

[shakey_snake]

editedEasy killer. I just have a bad feeling that this will end up as a lot of wasted energy. (60 posts and what so far) Democracy is great for protecting things, but not so hot about getting things done.
As far as I'm concerned, this thread has already been a success (http://heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=970). Props to you.

Last edited by funrun on Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:14 am to show justjohn's edited post.

[InfinityMax]

Oh, John beat me to it. I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed.

I say we give it a 'cool' name with a descriptive name.

The Barracks: Customs You Can Use Now.

The 'cool' name actually serves a purpose outside making us all look like grownups who still live in their moms' basements - it gives us a way to reference the thread. Like when we talk about the Best Of Showcase thread, we just call it 'The Halls'.

[funrun]

imax, The combo name idea works as well.

shakey, the thread you referenced there is great but the way I understand this concept of this thread is that the unusable customs will be weeded out for people who don't want to read every custom and decide for themselves which ones are worth using, so this thread has not been a success yet.

[Rhydderch]

hey, why don't we just come up with different names for the thread until the concept loses interest...

Or maybe we can create a poll about whether or not to have a poll about naming it or not
Like your apathetic ass gives a damn one way or the other? I mean, seriously. You've posted in this thread 5 times, and not a single one of those posts offered anything constructive. Quit trolling this thread for random points to drop negativity. It's stupid.

Someone was going to say it. S_S I've talked to you and I like you but your comments are a little harsh. You're entitled to your opinion and you may even be right but we'll never know for sure until we try. Therefore please offer constructive criticism instead of sarcastic criticism. Thank you.

That said I admit that S_S has a point: I've seen projects go under after a long wait. We should get the project rolling. The name can be easily fixed: we just capture both the HS name and the actual purpose of the thread with our chosen name:

The Barracks: Great Customs You Can Use Right Now

As I said in my earlier post the name of the thread should have a themed name and a subtitle, so we can have a touch of flavor and a dash of intent in our custom recipe =)

Also by way of explanation I dropped Circle of Summoning because it is too long with the subtitle. Also several people voiced their support for the Barracks, including the author of this idea, JJ. That said I think we can move on to the next step as long as no one has a major objection to the name. Funrun are you ok with this compromise?

[justjohn]

I put the name of this thing as The Barracks in the first page, I like it.

As far as I'm concerned, this is ready to begin.

I wonder if the mods would be willing to give me the option to delete my own posts? I was a member on another forum that used this same program, and there was a delete button. I just don't want to have to ask a mod to have to come in a delete each voting thread once it's over so that a new one can be posted, and I also don't want this forum spammed with unclosed voting threads.

Once that step is down, people can start nominating things into the Barracks, and the voting can start.

-jj

[Rhydderch]

Ok I started my post when JJ had just replied to S_S and apparently took so long that several people had posted before me. Good to see people are ok with a combination name.

I think 3 days/20votes and 13 yes posts is fine. We can fine tune if we find the number is too high or low. There is no way for us to be sure until after we start the thread. Next steps (that I can think of):

1) Imax can you find out whether you can get some sort of admin status to help us manage the posts?

2a) Finalize the nomination method: IE pick a nomination supervisor.

3b) We may want to start a new thread where we introduce the finalized idea and how nominations/votes work. It should be locked other than the occasional update when we fine tune the details. Ideally we would get this thread stickied. This thread could potentially BE the display thread. If this is the case the information on how nominations work should probably go at the bottom after the cards so it does not distract from the thread.

3) Start nominating!

Thats all I can think of now. Hopefully we can get these done and get the project started! =)

[justjohn]

The first page has been updated.

-jj

[funrun]

Thanks for the update JJ!

There is a way you (or imax, or both) can be Moderator of just this forum, so I'll run your idea by truth.

[skyknight]

Cool ready when you guys are. I will help in any way I can :D

[InfinityMax]

This is a go. Truth is giving me moderator status just for the Custom Units forum, so I'll be able to lock and delete the voting threads, and I can keep the display thread updated and locked to keep it from getting replies.

So JJ, pick a couple customs and let's get started. You can start the thread, show off the card and provide a brief description of the intent, and we'll get under way.

[reapersaurus]

I had always thought this was going to be an ongoing thing, which wouldn;t require multiple sperate, unending threads (and the attendant maintenance) for it. :shrug:

I liked "The Summoning Circle - Customs You Can Use".

[netherspirit]

I had always thought this was going to be an ongoing thing, which wouldn;t require multiple sperate, unending threads (and the attendant maintenance) for it. :shrug:

I liked "The Summoning Circle - Customs You Can Use".

Thats what I thought too, but I guess we will give this a go and see how it works.

I like The Summoning Circle title btw.

[InfinityMax]

A single thread would require judges, or in-thread voting. If we could rewrite the poll every time we want a new discussion, we would.

I don't mind the maintenance. It'll give me something to do at work when I should be building catalog pages and masking out ceiling fans.

As far as the name, I think it's John's thing, he ought to get the final call. But either way, we can change it if we don't like it. I think we ought to get this going while it's got momentum.

[Grungebob]

I like the name JJ came up with. "The Barracks" It sounds like a place that troops hang out waiting for a battle. Good going JJ!!! Great idea!

[justjohn]

You'll have to thank Skyknight for the name. I'll gladly accept your thanks for the idea though =P.

First voting thread will be up later this afternoon/tonight.

-jj

[skyknight]

I'm ready when you guys are. And thanks GB for liking my name :lol:

[justjohn]

The first voting thread is up. Thanks for all the feedback on this.

-john

[reapersaurus]

Poll responses are:

Yes: This unit is balanced, good looking, and I would play with it/allow it to be played in my games.

No: I think this unit is over powered.

No: I think this unit is underpowered.

No: I do not like the "feel" of this custom.I think the 4th option would be better as "No - other reason"

The "feel" of a custom is an actual unit critique AFAIK - not a catch-all category.

[justjohn]

I had posted a response to this earlier, but it seems to have vanished. Seems like the second time today that I have seen a post vanish (not just my own, anyone else notice this?).

Yeah, I agree with that Reaper.

My idea of "feel" dealt with peoples' like and dislike of certain unit types (dwarves/knights/historical units/ect). You took it to mean something totally different. Your 4th option seems to work better, as it is a wider no. It will be the 4th option next voting.

I have a question- should voting continue on to 20 if 13 yes votes are cast before the 20 votes are reached? Same with if a unit gets 8 no votes before 20 votes are completely cast.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this project.

-jj

[Rhydderch]

I think the vote can stop once it hits 13. No real reason to draw it out longer than that unless there are a comparable number of no votes.

[reapersaurus]

you may want a TINY bit more explanatory text in the first Barracks post, to tell new readers what the purpose of the thread is.
And it might be a good idea to mention/link to the Halls of Valhalla thread, too.

For that matter, I think I'll post a link to the Barracks and a mention in the first HoV thread when I get the chance. :thumbsup:

[Grungebob]

I think the vote can stop once it hits 13. No real reason to draw it out longer than that unless there are a comparable number of no votes.You could stop at either 13 yeses or 8 no's, whichever comes first. :)

[InfinityMax]

Sweet! One down. GB, nominate two customs, and we'll do it again.

[Rhydderch]

Hrm... is the voting thread gone already? I thought we had intended to keep those around for a little bit after each card was voted on for the card creator to read.

And I agree with Reaper - there should be a cross-link between the Halls and the Barracks. Mutual support! =)

[Fallen Templar]

I'm confused now so how does the nominations works. Sorry wasted from work.

[shakey_snake]

Hrm... is the voting thread gone already? I thought we had intended to keep those around for a little bit after each card was voted on for the card creator to read. I suggested locking threads that were voted down and deleting threads that made it (for spaces sake).

I don't know if this will become the standard practice, though.

[Rhydderch]

I suggested locking threads that were voted down and deleting threads that made it (for spaces sake).

Nodnod. I think our original plan was to eventually delete all vote threads so we do not clutter the forums. I was just suggesting that the threads be left a little longer so people can read the comments and possibly edit their cards, especially if it was voted down.

[Grungebob]

Sweet! One down. GB, nominate two customs, and we'll do it again.I'm sorry dudes, I didn't realize that I was supposed to nominate the next one (two?)!!

[skyknight]

I was just thinkin about something, what if someone nominates a new fig here that is Halls worthy. If we jump on things quick they may not get the actual recognition they deserve. I was wondering if above the yes vote if you could put a vote that counts as a yes but maybe says something like "yes and also worthy of a look at the Halls" this would count as a yes vote but if a fig got into the Barracks with like 10 of these halls votes you could pass it to the judges at the Halls. Just a thought. I would hate to see great figs get mired here because this is where they were first nominated.

[funrun]

Isn't the display thread supposed to be locked?

[InfinityMax]

I locked the display thread last night after I realized John had started it. And I didn't delete the Devil's voting thread - I went to lock it and it was already gone.

[Doc_Savage]

I was just thinkin about something, what if someone nominates a new fig here that is Halls worthy. If we jump on things quick they may not get the actual recognition they deserve. I was wondering if above the yes vote if you could put a vote that counts as a yes but maybe says something like "yes and also worthy of a look at the Halls" this would count as a yes vote but if a fig got into the Barracks with like 10 of these halls votes you could pass it to the judges at the Halls. Just a thought. I would hate to see great figs get mired here because this is where they were first nominated.

I think that the Barracks and the Halls serve different purposes. Getting a card into the Barracks may lead to the attention to get it in the Halls. It doesn't stop it from getting in the Halls. However, a good playable card with a figure that anyone can easily get, may not meet all that the Halls judges feel it need to have to get in. It may just be a good, solid reliable card that fills a niche, but isn't groundbreaking or interesting enough for the halls...........

And what is the official way to get a card a nomination thread for the Barracks?????

[Grungebob]

I was just thinkin about something, what if someone nominates a new fig here that is Halls worthy. If we jump on things quick they may not get the actual recognition they deserve. I was wondering if above the yes vote if you could put a vote that counts as a yes but maybe says something like "yes and also worthy of a look at the Halls" this would count as a yes vote but if a fig got into the Barracks with like 10 of these halls votes you could pass it to the judges at the Halls. Just a thought. I would hate to see great figs get mired here because this is where they were first nominated.

I think that the Barracks and the Halls serve different purposes. Getting a card into the Barracks may lead to the attention to get it in the Halls. It doesn't stop it from getting in the Halls. However, a good playable card with a figure that anyone can easily get, may not meet all that the Halls judges feel it need to have to get in. It may just be a good, solid reliable card that fills a niche, but isn't groundbreaking or interesting enough for the halls...........

And what is the official way to get a card a nomination thread for the Barracks?????I thought it was just a pure informal deal whereby anybody could nominate, then somebody mentioned that it was to be like a game of tag where the person who gets inducted must nominate two more or something..

[InfinityMax]

At first I figured we would let the recent nominee nominate one, but then we ran into a snag on the monks, since that was a group effort. That's just not going to work - too many chances for the nominee to not be nominating.

So I say PM your pick to JustJohn and he'll post them in the order he gets them.

Does that work for everyone?

[truth]

I'm pretty sure Imax got the ball rolling, and now whomever was lasted inducted into the barraks nominates the next unit. Chain reaction.

[reapersaurus]

At first I figured we would let the recent nominee nominate one, but then we ran into a snag on the monks, since that was a group effort.I tried to post in the nom thread, but it was already locked.

The Monks weren't a group effort. I just want to clear that up, since it's been mentioned multiple times today, and before.
I posted them in whole, in the very first Bizarro thread.
truth made the wonderful card and did the l33t PS work to take away their swords (which is cool as heck) :)

But really - they are a natural twisting of the Izumi Samurai - not the most creative, just the first to suggest it.
What they lack in creativity they make up in ease of access to the figures, I guess. :lol: :shrug:

I just nominated Annerios' Selene, and am looking for Doc Savage's gallery, but can't find his cards.... :?:

oh yeah - I have the updated Reflective Monks at home, as truth does I think.
GB posted this version in my creator thread:
http://www.heroscapehq.com/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/10112/normal_reflective_monks.jpg
It is a Unique squad - I thought it was!

[Karkadinn]

Seriously, guys. u_u So many of these nominations are getting voted in and the topics locked before I even have a chance to weigh in on my opinion, and I'm one of the guys with MORE time on his hands than most. Imagine how the people who only have the time to check in on weekends feel. For example, I would have liked to repeat my long-held and strongly-held doubts about the viability of the Bizarro Izumi as a practical, playable unit, even if I didn't really expect anyone to agree with me, but it's too late now. ;P

[InfinityMax]

Fair enough. I guess we got all fired up and took off after the damned thing.

How do people feel about upping the vote requirement? Like we don't close until there are 30 votes (or 19 yes, or 12 no)? That should give them threads more time. We can go higher, too, if that's too fast.

[reapersaurus]

I don't know why they are being closed, myself. :shrug:

The Reflective Monks picture is the old version, and it was locked within a handful of hours. :!:
before I could even clarify that I was the creator! :(

Why do we feel the need to close them, again?
Either just let them scroll of the front page on their own, or at a certain point delete them.
But I don't see the point in locking them, since if anyone posts to them, that means the discussion isn;t done yet. :shrug:

And I like seeing quite a few nomination threads to begin with, at least - that's not the problem IMO - the locking too quickly is the only issue. Kark - do you think there's too many threads, or too quick of locking?

[yagyuninja]

Yeah those first couple cards really flew in the barracks, huh? Perhaps upping the vote requirement would work. I know there was some talk about not enough interest to get a significant number of votes but that clearly isn't a problem.

Maybe the reason the votes come through real fast is that its simply a lot easier to vote in a poll than to comment in a creators thread. Commenting takes more time and work. Which brings up a question I had...

Is the barracks voting thread a place for me to discuss changes to the unit, or am I to consider it done and evaluate it on its merits then and there?

[InfinityMax]

Yagyu, if you have comments, that thread is a great place for feedback. That's why I'm locking them and waiting to delete them, in case creators want to read the feedback they got in that thread.

[InfinityMax]

Rather than use a minimum votes requirement, we could just let them sit for three days regardless of the number of votes, and require a 55% majority to enter the Barracks. That guarantees time for review and comments.

[Karkadinn]

I think the voting process should go as high as it possibly can while keeping the process going smoothly and at a reasonable pace. IOW, that we should experiment with setting the bar high, and then gradually lowering it to the ideal, rather than setting it low and then raising it up.

[InfinityMax]

While we're debating how to make the Barracks work better, we should discuss the nomination process. Right now, the last nominee picks the next one, but that can break down. What if someone nominates Chinaboy's work, or the piece is a full collaborative with multiple creators?

I propose that anyone can nominate anything, any time. We could just make a single thread that contains nominations, and start voting threads in the order they are listed. That way nobody can cry foul about favoritism or whatever - you can see the thread, and that's the order in which the voting threads will happen.

[yagyuninja]

The current process definately seems shaky.

I like the idea of moving in that direction, Imax. That way a unit doesn't necessarily have to be popular to get a voting thread, it just needs to be good to be voted in.

[justjohn]

Sorry I've been away today, thanks for picking up the slack Imax/Gbob.
This thing seems to be gathering interest, that's great!

As far as the voting, I have no problem with upping the limit. I had originally said 50 votes, which after these first few, seems like a good deal. I like votes rather than a time limit. Time limits seem to make people procrastinate. I would hate to see a unit voting thread linger on for 2 days after it is clear that it has a unanimous decision either way.

As far as as closing/locking the threads, I'm for it. Perhaps there is a way to merge all voting threads together once voting has ended? I don't want to see the first page of these forums littered with 78 ended voting threads, but I do see the legitimacy in having creators have access to the thread.

For the discussion end of things, yes yagu, that is the place to voice your opinions. If you don't like a custom, say why. Use the creator's thread to elaborate on the subject and offer insight on your opinions.

Another issue I would like to raise is who actually creates the voting threads. I love the enthusiasm, but I can see this getting out of hand very quickly. I think 1-3 people need to be in charge of posting the polls. I don't care if one of those people is me or not, I would love the responsibility, but as long as they are getting posted, I really don't mind who the people are, just as long as polls aren't getting posted at random.

Nominations... I currently have 4 nominations in my inbox. I don't know how to work these in. There should be a limit as to the number of voting polls open at one time. I like the idea of having someone who was just voted on nominating something, but I am unsure how well that is going to work.

This is turning out much better than I would have ever thought. Thanks for your help and comments, guys.

-john

[reapersaurus]

Again - why are they being locked so quickly?
Would it hurt to leave them open for at least a day?

[shakey_snake]

I say twenty votes as we have been doing, and set a max of 1 voting thread per day.
It may take us a month or so to get caught up, but so what.

And I'd really like to see these voting threads get their own sub-forum. Then they could be open as long as anyone wants.

[InfinityMax]

OK, so here's my proposal:

1) 60 votes or 3 days, and then it's decided. In no case does a vote thread end before it has been up 24 hours.

2) Nominations occur in a separate thread we set up. See a custom you like? Put it there. Then, in the order they're listed, JustJohn makes a new vote thread every time an old one is finished. The new thread can lead off with the four nominations JJ already has.

3) When the two voting threads currently active are completed, JustJohn will start new ones. If a thread is finished for more than a day and John hasn't had a chance to start a new one, I'll handle it. Or whatever - everyone goes on vacation sometime, so we'll have some backups.

4) I can absolutely merge the threads, and then they don't have to be locked or deleted. Once a voting thread is finished, I'll post the vote results and merge it into a continually growing Finished Barracks Votes thread.

Any objections? Improvements? Suggestions?

[shakey_snake]

60 votes seems like a whole lot.
I mean look at the participation in some of the contest threads. Cupid's finals have 43 votes and it's been open for a wek or something.

30 seems right.

[justjohn]

Everything on your proposal looks great. 1 suggestion: I still think voting should end if said number of oks or nays needed to pass or fail are reached.

With 60 votes, would that be 40+yes or 20+ no? or 45+/15+?

As a side note, think this thread should be merged in with the larger Barracks discussion thread?

[InfinityMax]

Yeah, John, that makes sense. We're not actually ever going to get to 60 votes, unless it's one hell of a close race. 40 yes or 20 no ends the voting.

And it probably should be merged, but it'll be easier to find if we leave it separate for now. I'll merge it when we're done with it.

[InfinityMax]

Shakey, we got enough votes to finish off three nominations in one day, at 20. If we only go to 30, I still don't think that leaves it long enough. I know 60 is high, but the point is for the thread to stick around awhile.

Besides, if a custom is really good, it only needs 40-45 votes. So if everyone likes it, it could still get voted into the Barracks in less than a day or two. They only stay longer if people have objections.

[reapersaurus]

we can certainly go with those numbers for awhile, and see how they work.
PErsonally, I think 40 Yes votes is a bit much to ask, but we'll find out.
There typically isn;t that much traffic in here, I didn;t think.... :shrug:

So where is this Nomination Thread? Did I miss it?
There are 2 or 3 I want to get in the list.

[truth]

We barely get 40 votes for a contest. I'd say 25ish would be a hefty number to tackle.

[InfinityMax]

Yeah, Truth, you're probably right. But I think for now, we can let it sit high, and bring it down if it's taking too long to get a concensus.

[Rhydderch]

First let me ask whether the currently nominated cards will have to meet the 13 vote requirement or the as-of-yet undecided 20-40 vote requirement? Also we may want to slow the voting threads to 1 at a time or so until we figure this out. Now to address Imax's proposals:

1) I liked the idea to let the vote run for a full 3 days with a 20-30 vote requirement. 40 seems awfully high. Not only does Cupid's contest only have 43 votes after a week but his earlier contests only got up to 20 or so votes. Anyway I am glad we are able to increase the vote limit. It means more people are open to the idea of customs nowadays! =)

Also one of my concerns for the 40 votes is that it might seem ok to simply edit the number later but what about the cards that have already been voted on and did not make it? If they received 36 yes votes and we later change the required number to 30 do those cards automatically enter the Barracks or do they have to be re-nominated? Some people might not even bother to vote by the time you get to 30 or so because they might have read the original 13 vote requirement and decided the nominated card was already in.

Finally the cards already in the Barracks will stay in the Barracks right? We're not going to take them out and require they get 20-40 votes, I hope.

2) This is fine. We might be backlogged with customs but I definitely prefer open nomination.

3) Does this mean only 2 voting threads will be open at a time? I like the idea of limiting the number of these at any given time - otherwise people might become inundated with them. Also we might get less comments if we have 10 voting threads open at once =P

4) I would not merge the thread that quickly. I think the idea that many of us liked was the plan to leave the thread there for a month or so before merging or deletion. If we simply merge the thread then after a few weeks people will have to sort through a pretty enormous backlog of posts before they get to their own.

I realize that with the high rate of voting threads that we have opened, one month might be a bit long. Maybe we can leave the threads open for a week or two after voting has stopped. After that we can merge the thread.

And yah... this thread should be merged with the larger Barracks thread.

[Rhydderch]

Thanks for the updated card Reaper.

I think anyone should be able to nominate. We will probably have a huge inflow of nominations at first - the barracks has been a long time in coming - but it should become more manageable after awhile.

[shakey_snake]

Shakey, we got enough votes to finish off three nominations in one day, at 20. If we only go to 30, I still don't think that leaves it long enough. Well, everyone got three votes...

[InfinityMax]

OK, I merged the threads. This entire discussion is in one place now.

1) How about 26 yes votes or 17 no votes ends the vote, or three days. In no case can the thread end before 24 hours. That makes the total vote count 40, though it won't always go that high.

The number of required yes votes is to get a 65% or better majority. Selene is close; none of the first three was anywhere near 65%, and passed easily. So those stay, and I don't see any reason to even revote on them.

2 & 3) Cool. JustJohn, could you please start the thread? I think since the Treant is here now, we should lead off with the Wood Woads, and then whatever nominations you've got. Once the thread starts, anyone who wants can put a custom in there, and as we finish one, we'll go on to the next. And yes, Rhy, that means only 2 at a time, ever.

4) I think the flood of voting threads will abate now that we're giving them longer, so I don't mind leaving them. I just thought merging the vote threads would be more useful, to keep them all in one place after the votes are done. Anyone else want to ring in on this? This is a tangential enough issue that we can proceed without a final decision.

[Rhydderch]

Ok those points sound good to me Imax. 26 yes votes is a good number to try out imo.

The nominations thread looks good. Thanks JJ. I'm glad we're down to 2 voting threads at a time.

I think it would be good to leave the voting threads un-merged for a little so card creators can check the final comments without having to sort through all the other merged threads especially since there will eventually be a whole lot of them.

I agree though that we can move on for now without a final decision on what to do with the threads after they are finished.

[Doc_Savage]

I would encourage people to nominate only a couple at a time... Also, I thought that the Barracks were for units that people could field easily. Print out the card and buy a few figs and play.

Please limit nominees to cards that people can actually get the figures for easily. I know that this eliminates many good customs from the Barracks (including a lot of my own) but I think that this is the purpose of this particular list of customs. Cards you can use now. Or at least real soon.

[justjohn]

I'm glad you pointed this out. I have been at work today, and haven't had a chance to address this issue.

For starters, I would like to place a nomination limit of 3 to anyone wishing to nominate customs. That is 1 person may only nominate 3 different customs at 1 time. Once all 3 of those customs have been voted on, you may submit 3 more.

I love the enthusiasm, but 1 person nominating more than 3 customs at one time really limits other people's nominations from ever seeing the light of day. Hopefully everyone will understand the logic behind this choice.

As a side note, I don't think we should place Halls' customs in the Barracks, they have already been established as the best of the best, and under that are more than playable.

Doc, I agree with you on the availablity of figures. If a custom uses a figure that is expensive, requires a lot of time on to customize, and does not have an acceptable stand in, it will get more than likely get a no vote for me. I doubt that my single vote will make much of a difference, but having a figure that is difficult for the majority of the users to find is a weakness in my eyes for a custom that is "ready to use." This was originally one of the criteria for the Barracks, but most people thought that it was silly to limit what could and could not be nominated.

-john

[shakey_snake]

Since Units in the Halls are already showcased, could we leave them out of the Barracks?
Especially for congestion's sake.

[yagyuninja]

Availability of figures is one of the most important factors for me. If its far too much work to get the figure, I'll never play that custom.

Of course, that just means it will probably get a no vote from me.

[netherspirit]

Okay, I am not trying to **** in anyone's wheaties or anything like that. I am still confused as to why there even needs to be a voting process.

If the goal is to get customs people can play all in one place why can't there just be a thread for everyone to put their finished customs in? I know there will be some really bad customs posted or overpowered, unplayable customs, but if you (IMax) are willing to handle all the moderating of the way things are now wouldn't it be much easier just to delete bad/unplayable customs and then let them know? Maybe there could even be another discussion thread for people to talk about removing certain customs?

I have no problem with the way you guys are running this now, I just don't see the reason why all this voting and nominating needs to go on...

[justjohn]

Does anyone else not like the voting process? I am just curious.

This voting and nominating seems to be working fine. I accept your opinion, and yes, it would probably be much easier for us just to do that. I am willing to do the extra work to keep this system running the way it is now, and Imax seems to be willing to as well. It's hard to agree with you when you are suggesting that we do something that you and shakey both said failed on .net.

[netherspirit]

Does anyone else not like the voting process? I am just curious.

This voting and nominating seems to be working fine. I accept your opinion, and yes, it would probably be much easier for us just to do that. I am willing to do the extra work to keep this system running the way it is now, and Imax seems to be willing to as well. It's hard to agree with you when you are suggesting that we do something that you and shakey both said failed on .net.

It was on the HQ. I think it failed because of lack of publicity. It was forgotten about.

Its not that I don't like the voting process, I am just confused by why it needs to be there...Its going to take awhile to fill this Display Thread up which to me defeats the purpose of the mission of it? Customs you can play now?

[justjohn]

I meant to say hq, sorry about that.

I personally like the voting because it gives people a chance to voice their opinions, and have them matter. It also gives someone the ability to say that they like or dislike something without having to repeat the person who just posted before them, who liked the custom for the same reason that he does. It gives people the opportunity to say as little or as much as they want to. If they just want to post a vote, they can do that. If they want to voice an opinion and vote, they can do that too. Hell, they could even just post and never vote, dunno why someone would do that, but it is an option.

As a side note, having new voting threads being made at least every three days will keep the Barracks in the spot light as long as people continue to nominate.

If I offer you a cupcake and a bottle of pepsi clear would you come over to the "YES! FOR VOTING" side of the fence? You're a big contributor to this community, and having you behind this would be all the more better.

-john

[Doc_Savage]

Having the voting just keeps the clutter out of the Barracks. I have a ton of customs in my thread and yet, for the Barracks, I think there are just a few that should qualify - mainly due to figure accessability.

If everyone just posts all their customs in a giant, Here's all the customs Ever thread, it will just be so much that I think that it will be ignored.

I think that it is vital for the concept of the barracks to succeed for it to only include units that are easy for the figures to be obtained or repainted official figures. The cards should be fair and balanced.

The voting is to be sure that happens....

I also think that at the top of the nomination thread the purpose of the Barracks should be plainly stated and the rules of the nominating should be clearly stated.

The mission and purpose of the Barracks should also be clearly stated at the top of the Barracks display thread.

Not every well made card will fit the specific niche of the Barracks.

[netherspirit]

Having the voting just keeps the clutter out of the Barracks.

While at the same time cluttering the Custom Unit Forum...six of one half a dozen of another.

[reapersaurus]

My vote:

I would prefer the Barracks be a place for easy-to-find and play customs.
That's what niche I see could be the most focused, and of most benefit to customs enthusiasts.

I like the idea of 26 votes, but don;t know if there will be enough traffic for that - regardless, we will find out soon enough what number is the best.

The first Barracks Display post needs to spell out the procedures more.
For example, it doesn;t say not to nominate Halls of Valhalla units, and it has no criteria that nominees should meet.

I think the nominee should describe why they like their choice. This gives a quick testimonial about the unit and its strengths. If the nominator knows what figure was used, please list it along with the card.

Question - what do we do if we don't think a card should be nominated?
No offense, but there will be some cards that probably shouldn't have a thread and poll and slot allocated to the card. Heck, if someone liked my Oliphaunt unit, I'd object since a fig doesn't exist for it to properly be played.
How do we prevent non-high-quality cards from taking up a slot for other ones?
I know this is problematic, since without voting, how do we know which ones are good enough, but if we just put up an objection to the card in here, or alongside a nomination, maybe that might bring attention to the few that maybe should not have a thread and vote done....? :shrug:

[justjohn]

I am totally for only allowing easy-to-get-figure based customs. But that idea seems to have gotten shot down early on. So far that's 4 of us who are for it. Dunno which way Imax swings on this topic. As I said in an earlier post, more likely than not, I am going to vote no on customs that have hard to get figures, or figures that have difficult modifications/repaints.

Noone really said anything, but do you think there should be a limit to the number of customs a single person can nominate at one time? I think there should be.

I went to add a more descriptive commentary about, but I cannot edit my post because it is locked. I think that if someone wants to nominate a not-good figure, then let them, it probably won't get voted in.

-jj

[netherspirit]

I unlocked it for you.

[justjohn]

Thanks nether. The Barracks sticky has been updated.

[InfinityMax]

I like the voting. I don't want bad customs in this thread, and I've seen a lot of bad customs. I want customs that are playable and accessible, not ugly, poorly-conceived customs with expensive figures or overpowering abilities. The voting sort of keeps out the riff-raff, and nobody can scream elitism because everyone gets their two cents.

As far as the clutter - my initial concept was to merge the voting threads into one big 'Barracks Finished Voting' thread. That way there are only ever three threads - two active and one really long finished thread. There were some objections to the merging, which is why I haven't done it yet.

[Doc_Savage]

If there was only 1 voting thread at a time, merging them all into 1 thread after the voting is over wouldn't matter because they would all just go in order down the thread. It's only when you have 2 or more voting threads going at the same time that you have to wait to merge...

[reapersaurus]

justjohn - here's some suggestions feel free to take or leave:
The Barracks, for the time being, is the place for the best customs that community members have nominated, voted on, and felt ready for their personal games.

This thread was created to fill a niche. There have been many custom creations through the years, on many sites and threads. A small handful of these have made it into the best of the best, the Halls of Valhalla thread (found here).
The customs in this thread may just be the best of the rest, and they offer other well thought-out, solid and balanced units to expand your Heroscape collection. Feel free to consider playing with these customs, as they shouldn't unbalance most games and you may be able to find the figures fairly easily.
Why wait for the next Heroscape expansion to try some fun, creative new customs? :D

Also, I'm just checking to see if you'ree going to be adding new posts to the Barracks display thread as we induct more.
It's a good idea I think to make new posts, to bump the thread and show evereyone there's activity (since edits don;t do that) and the new post acts as a date marker of entry for the new units.

[justjohn]

Will do.

The other 3 polls that are up now are going down tomorrow, I think.

[Rhydderch]

I think the nominee should describe why they like their choice. This gives a quick testimonial about the unit and its strengths. If the nominator knows what figure was used, please list it along with the card.

Question - what do we do if we don't think a card should be nominated?


I agree with Reaper that cards should include a description by whomever nominated the card. I almost think it should be a requirement - its really not hard to do and we can even PM people who do not include one in case they did not know.

I understand Reaper's concern about cards that do not really need a vote - I remember completely unpolished cards which were submitted to the Halls. These often had missing text or gross errors in the description, not to mention completely unreasonable prices. I also see how it might go against the idea of an open vote for us to not consider a card.

Still we might come up with a few simple and reasonable requirements, such as a requirement for a description from the nominator or anyone else who feels the card is Barracks-worthy. We could also require someone to second the card tho that usually makes little difference. Finally I think cards should at least fulfill the minimum requirements of having no missing text.

[justjohn]

I added a couple of new rules to the Nomination Thread hoping to avoid the latter situation.

[InfinityMax]

So Doc, what if we wait to merge a vote thread until another vote thread has closed? Like, right now, Selene and the Treant are about ready to close out, having had their three days. So I finish off the Treant, and merge it with Colossor, the Monks, and the Dusk Devil, complete with voting stats. Once the Wood Woads close, I merge the Treant.

Would that work?

[netherspirit]

I think the problem you will run into with that is that it will reorder the posts in order of post date/time. Any votes that were taking place on the same day will likely get all jumbled up.

[reapersaurus]

I agree that the obvious problem would then by the chronoligical overlap.
But at this point, there's really no other alternative other than leaving them all seperate, right?
So let's do it, and from this point out, they should be better.
It's not like it's the best novel ever written that we're losing some thread context on - it's just some light replies about the units in question, most of which should be pretty apparent by the posts as to what they're referring to.... :shrug:

[Doc_Savage]

At this point it is obvious that we aren't going to be in the 40 or 50 total votes area on the threads. It seems liek a 2/3 majority is the target we should shoot for to get in.

Two voting threads up at the same time is plenty. In a month, the Barracks will be over-flowing....

I strongly urge people to keep the Barracks filled with good customs that people can easily get the figures for.

[netherspirit]

At this point it is obvious that we aren't going to be in the 40 or 50 total votes area on the threads. It seems liek a 2/3 majority is the target we should shoot for to get in.

Two voting threads up at the same time is plenty. In a month, the Barracks will be over-flowing....

I strongly urge people to keep the Barracks filled with good customs that people can easily get the figures for.

Isn't it really up to each person what is easily available?

[Doc_Savage]

At this point it is obvious that we aren't going to be in the 40 or 50 total votes area on the threads. It seems liek a 2/3 majority is the target we should shoot for to get in.

Two voting threads up at the same time is plenty. In a month, the Barracks will be over-flowing....

I strongly urge people to keep the Barracks filled with good customs that people can easily get the figures for.

Isn't it really up to each person what is easily available?

Well I thought the whole idea was to give the general public (Heroscapers that don't normally use customs) a place to find reasonably balanced cards that they can easily get figures for so that they might try a custom or two and discover the great work that has been going on here. Then they might dig deeper into the customs and see the amazing stuff this community has created.

If that idea is wrong, then I don't get the purpose of the Barracks.

[netherspirit]

At this point it is obvious that we aren't going to be in the 40 or 50 total votes area on the threads. It seems liek a 2/3 majority is the target we should shoot for to get in.

Two voting threads up at the same time is plenty. In a month, the Barracks will be over-flowing....

I strongly urge people to keep the Barracks filled with good customs that people can easily get the figures for.

Isn't it really up to each person what is easily available?

Well I thought the whole idea was to give the general public (Heroscapers that don't normally use customs) a place to find reasonably balanced cards that they can easily get figures for so that they might try a custom or two and discover the great work that has been going on here. Then they might dig deeper into the customs and see the amazing stuff this community has created.

If that idea is wrong, then I don't get the purpose of the Barracks.

That isn't what I meant. You are correct about the purpose of the Barracks, but saying that everyone needs to nominate "easily available customs" is a bit broad. What I think is easily available and what you think is easily available might not be the same thing...thats all I meant.

[InfinityMax]

Good point, Nether. That would be confusing. Any suggestions?

Or should I just delete the vote threads when they're done for a week?

[InfinityMax]

I think we can safely induct the figure once it's got 13 yes votes, with a caveat that it has to stay active for a minimum 24 hours. Anyone object to that? Or we could just say each thread runs 2 days, after with a 2/3 majority gets it in (the figure must have a 67% or better rate of yes votes).

[justjohn]

That sounds very good, IMax. 2 days running time (much better than the 3 day, in my opinion) must have 67% yes vote to get inducted. Or 13+ yes votes with a yes % of 67+ before the 2 days are up.

Looks great.

GJ on getting the Treant in there, was planning on doing that when I got home, but you beat me to it! Making me look like I've abandoned my love child. Seriously though, thanks for all of your help with this idea.

[InfinityMax]

I love this idea, John. I've spent so much time cruising these boards, looking for customs I could use, that it's just awesome to have hit on a way to shorten my search.

I guess that means we need to deal with Selene, too, because her 2 days are up, too.

[reapersaurus]

If any customs follower has not voted on Selene, please do so now, because she's right at the cut-off level we're talking about. Make your opinion heard, one way or the other, to make it a clean vote, either way.

She has 13 votes, but hovering at around 65%-70% yes to no ratio.

I just wish there was more solid reasoning for the votes against the card, and I'd feel better if she doesn't make it. :shrug:

Is there something wrong mechanically with it? The creative abiltities sure match the theme. :?:
While a "feel" is certainly reason enough to vote No, it'd be a shame if an eminently-playable, balanced, popular creature type (vampire) and accessible figure (that has a pretty big cross-fanbase with many HS fans, I'd think) didn't make the Barracks, it does set the bar pretty high, I'd think. :shrug:

[justjohn]

I was wondering the same thing as well, Imax. I was just looking at her wondering if another vote was going to come in. She's actually past the cut-off, which was 2 hours ago.

This one did have the most opposition to it out of the handful we have done, I think most people had somewhat valid arguments for why they didn't like the figure, and I guess that is what The Barracks boils down to.

I hate to say it, but I don't think Selene made the cut, and we should make that known now, so that we don't set a precedence for sliding on our own rules. Us liking a unit doesn't change the fact that it didn't meet the requirements for getting into the Barracks.

-jj

[skyknight]

Just having a feeling about something sometimes is a good enough reason to vote no I think. If someone puts Michael Jordan up there I am going to vote him down no matter how good his stats and abilities are. Granted Selene is a vampire, but I just do not like the screen to card kinda thing. I think the creator in this case should have used the concept of Selene, found a different fig and name and submitted it. I would have definitely voted yes then. I just saw in Cupids customs he is doing Solid Snake, while many people like this idea I was not overly crazy about it. I guess what it boils down to is that if that this many people do not feel comfortable with Selene on their table then something has to be a bit wrong. This is going to happen in an open forum. I am sure many more will meet this fate as well. For example Just John says he will vote down all hard to get minis just for that reason. That is his perogative. I would not shoot down a fig for this because I would go ahead and make him, pure and simple, but that is how john feels about it. So be it.

[justjohn]

You make me sound so harsh, Sky. If it's reasonable, I will probably vote yes, or if there is a good stand in figure.

Take for instance Atmospro's beautiful cards. Most of his customs use Rakham (sp?) figures, which are fairly on the steepside. On top of that they are unpainted. Finally, many things that are embodied on his customs are reflective of the figure used, which is in no way a bad thing, it just makes it limiting to play it, to me at least. Most figures will have a stand in figure available. Like his Puritans, there just are figures from anywhere else (that i know of) that would be reasonable stand-ins for those costly, unpainted figures.

If a card portrays a huge, tatooed minotaur holding a six foot pole arm and charging with his head down, and has an ability that refers to his weaponry or stance, I just don't think a Cheetos Brand Snack taped to a quarter with a toothpick shoved through the middle of it is a good substitute on the field. Does that make any sense?

[skyknight]

Sorry boss if that sounded harsh, it was not meant to in the least bit. I was just kinda sayin different strokes for different folks in a long "bloviated" :wink: way. Anyways I think you should make a card for your cheetoh. In all seriousness I understand where you are comin from, it's just not my voting criteria, I have decided to be a pain in the hump in other areas :lol:

[Rhydderch]

Isn't it really up to each person what is easily available?

Thats true Nether but the basic idea is what would *likely* be available to many people and/or the existence of alternate figures to use.

For example the MK figures are actually quite hard for me to get because I do not have a credit card and cannot buy them online. The local stores almost never carry them either. Still I would consider them easily available because I know many people here have access to them. Its not so much about my personal situation but what I know to be the situation for a greater majority of the people here.

What we mean by not easily available would be the line of Rackham miniatures. These are some of the best looking minis I have ever seen but can run $60+ for one mini that is unpainted and not even mounted on a base. Plus the company is based in France so you would also need to purchase them online. These figures are generally out of reach for us, as has been stated by many people over the year or two that people have made customs for HS. Other examples might be out of print figures from other games or $60 single rare figures.

Anyway we have no real requirement that the figures are easily available at the moment since we take all nominations. Its all up to the voters.

[reapersaurus]

I've held off twice and not posted this, but i think i should:

uncas last comment is showing (I feel) that people are approaching this Barracks with WAY too high of standard of quality.

I feel some people may be approaching this as the Halls-of-Valhalla-that-I-can-vote-on. :!:

And that's not what the Barracks is, AFAIK.

This should be a showcase for units that people can play - NOT absoutely-perfect cards that everyone thinks are exactly right.
As long as they meet a standard of quality, who are we to say that a licensed character shouldn't be in the Barracks, if it's done well?

Who are we to quibble about 10 points difference in cost?
Heck, I know of at least 7 official units off the top of my head that I KNOW without a doubt are costed incorrectly, by at least 10 points.

It just seems odd to be hearing such ephemeral and non-qualified reasons to vote NO to a Barracks nominee, and have that stop the entry even after it got enough votes to enter. :shrug:

[Rhydderch]

I agree with you Reaper. But I also think (or at least hope) that there are enough people here to usually get a good card voted in despite minor quibbles. Only one person voted no based on the "commercialized character" issue and that is manageable.

Also some of the people who voted no mentioned text issues which I would consider valid but also fixable. I like to think the Barracks will help to fine-tune some of the nominated cards before they are submitted. Nothing as grand as the adjustments sometimes made in the Halls but a few improvements here and there can go a long way.

[InfinityMax]

I'm going to hold off on posting another voting thread for a day to stagger them, if nobody objects too strenuously. It would be nice to have one new vote thread every day, I think. Keeps it fresher, and lets you see a new custom every day.

Also, I'm split on Annerios' Alien Queen and Alien figures. Should I do one thread for both, or split them up? I can see them being a package deal, but what if one gets knocked down because people don't like the other?

[shakey_snake]

the bearers of the way thread is missing the last option.

(should this thread be retitled The Barracks discussion thread?)

[InfinityMax]

Fixed. Thanks Snake.

[justjohn]

Staggering them works for me.

I think the Aliens should be a package deal. I think if one makes it in, so would the other, if we did separate voting threads, but that's just my opinion.

[reapersaurus]

Do the Aliens have any figure that can be used for them? :cry:

What are the costs to buy them?

I still don't know what kind of quality control we have. :shrug:
This IS just a popularity contest, if people don't vote very carefully. And we have seen big problems crop up before with this situation....

I really hope that people who have followed customs for awhile are voting in these polls, because I don't see the benefit in promoting units that have serious cost issues as some of the BEST customs made in this community.

There are so many solid, well-costed customs that I would hate to see be forgotten about or ignored, while less-balanced units get spotlighted (hypothetically). :cry:

I guess another way to phrase this is:
I wouldn't want to see the Barracks' function be compromised, and its worth be devalued, by entering units that aren't playable competetively. But that's just my opinion.

[Doc_Savage]

There are Alien Queen figures that are easily available via ebay for $12-$15 plus shipping, called Konami Alien Queen.

There also will be a set in December from Horrorclix with (my guess) 6 warriors and 1 Queen.

I would make them a package thread.

[Doc_Savage]

Sorry, for double posting this, but I didn't want it to get lost in the Pratorian Guard voting thread...

I think that the arguments against cards because the figures being too difficult to get, or too hard to repaint have gotten out of hand.

Rejecting these guys (the P Guard) because they are underpowered is one thing, but because it is too hard to paint or to get extra Romans???????

They don't need a full beautiful repaint to be played. They are not modified in any way beyond the color of the figures. The figures are available for $13 + shipping off Hasbros own site. HOW HARD IS THAT?????

If somebody likes this card, they get the figures, mark them in some simple way, and play. IF THIS IS TOO HARD THEN THERE IS NO POINT IN CONTINUING WITH THE BARRACKS.

If a different card has a figure based on a Mage Knight or D&D one, are those too hard to get? Is it a legitimate reason to reject one of these customs just because you have to locate and buy a mageknight or D&D figure? Then come the rebasing controversy. If they are not rebased then how could they be played with different bases? That would be no good. And rebasing is too hard.

If the figure on a custom is a prepainted, easily available one, then I don't see how that is an issue at all. Same for repaints of existing HS figures. Base your votes on the card, not that it is too hard to order a pack of Romans.

[netherspirit]

It's like I said earlier, whats easy for someone to get might not be so easy for someone else to get.

Votes should not be based on that fact. They should be based how playable the card is, not whether you have to order it online because you can't get the figure(s) by driving down to your FLGS, or Vice Versa.

[InfinityMax]

I agree, Doc. I think it's silly to vote down a card based solely on figure availability. You can always substitute something. I've seen people play with proxies that are MacDonalds Happy Meal toys. If a card sucks, that's one thing; if you can't get the figure, why should everyone else be denied the chance to see the card, especially if they do have the wherewithal to break out some paints and redo some Romans?

Happily, most people agree. I think the only time a Barracks custom has been voted down so far because of figure availability was Selene, and she was awfully close for other reasons, too. Sure, you get one or two people with ridiculous reasons for voting the way they did, but so far those voted haven't skewed the outcome enough to matter.

[reapersaurus]

If you guys remember, the Barracks was first created with the intent that of spotlighting customs that used easy-to-get figures.

After it changed to be a secondary-HallsofValhalla, justjohn posted that he recognized it had changed, and his critical criteria wasn't what other people had as criteria.

Each person has their criteria for determining "A custom that is easy/ready to play in your game of HS" - figure availability is certainly a valid criteria, guys.

Further, the Preatorian Guard has the BIGGER problems of being in competetion with an official expansion squad, the Romans. If I want to play the Guard properly, I'd be destroying my Roman squad, which is a VERY important and effective unit. I guess I could buy extra and then spend my time and $$$ and skill I don't have in repainting them. So let's call it $12 (and a couple hours) for a custom unit that is unplayable due to point costs (i.e there are much better uses of 100 points).

Anyway, I think it was a good idea for Doc to double-post his post in this thread, to discuss it here. :thumbsup:

[Grungebob]

Why couldn't you use a praetorian painted squad as a roman squad? I mean do ALL roman squads have to be painted red? Please! I use agent Bale both as a regular agent OR as Agent Bale when I want to. I also had a set of Krav Mag with pinstripes painted on them... I gave those to my nephew. My point is that there is no reason to even use the Praetorian unit as an example because everybody has them and it is merely a choice whether to repaint them or not. I plan on using regular Romans with rubber bands on them to playtest these Praetorian when I get the opportunity

[skyknight]

Most of my customs get played as a normal unit. I just like their to be difference between even the common squads. But again this is kind of a pointless arguement I guess because the whole point of the barraks voting is would you allow these characters onto your table. Or I like to think, is it worth my time to make this fig. With the Praetorian guard I probably would, others would not. That is the way the cookie crumbles I guess. These guys are going in anyways.

[Karkadinn]

Further, the Preatorian Guard has the BIGGER problems of being in competetion with an official expansion squad, the Romans. If I want to play the Guard properly, I'd be destroying my Roman squad, which is a VERY important and effective unit. I guess I could buy extra and then spend my time and $$$ and skill I don't have in repainting them.

I find it extraordinarily hilarious that the creator of Bizarro would say this. ;D

[reapersaurus]

Further, the Preatorian Guard has the BIGGER problems of being in competetion with an official expansion squad, the Romans. If I want to play the Guard properly, I'd be destroying my Roman squad, which is a VERY important and effective unit. I guess I could buy extra and then spend my time and $$$ and skill I don't have in repainting them.

I find it extraordinarily hilarious that the creator of Bizarro would say this. ;DI thought I made the distinction clear in the Preatorian thread..? (but you're just probably poking fun, but I'll still answer it for clarification's sake)

There's a huge difference between repainting expansion units (mostly commons which you can use all the ones you buy, and don't come with anything but the figures, unlike the MS) and repainting Master Set units (all unique).

Once you buy the 2nd MS (that the vast majority of people buy for the terrain in it), you've got extra figures that don't have any function (by the rules). They are effectively a waste (other than backups), and making alternate versions of them to add to the gameplay is a win-win.

It does on the surface seem ironic being stated by me though, I agree.

edit - (I took awhile to add my last line)
Doc - that's a good point, too.

[Doc_Savage]

But how is buying (and slightly marking or repaining) heroscape brand figures any different than buying D&D or mageknight figures to use in a custom? If you like the card and want to play it, you can buy the figures. The fact that for your $13 you also get some extra Roman Archers should make this a good deal. And no rebasing.

[InfinityMax]

Sorry to ignore the repaint discussion, but sadly, I don't care.

Instead, I was wondering if we could come to a consensus on old voting threads. We've got too many of them now, floating around, little 2-day blurbs that just drift around like flotsam after a wreck at sea.

I want to either merge them or delete them. The old ones are confusing me. I need some ideas - positive ones, like possible suggestions, not just 'I don't want you to do anything. ' I'm dong something, dangit, because they're making a mess. But I don't want to come down like the hand of God and just say, 'I decree that these threads have seen their last days,' and do whatever I want regardless of what other people would like, so I'm looking to you guys for ideas.

[netherspirit]

I say merge them.

That way, if the creators want to be able to get to their figures' comments they can.

[InfinityMax]

I tend to agree, Nether, but there's the problem of dates - the discussions are going to get overlapped, and that's just going to be confusing. Of course, it's better than the alternative, which is that they disappear entirely. I don't like that option. I don't think the overlap will be a huge factor - only a few of the threads so far have offered real help to the creator, so I don't think we'll be muddying priceless records.

[ChaosChild]

I don't want to make more work for you IMax but here's my suggestion anyways. You could create a new thread with the results of each poll in the first post (just the numbers of each yes no vote) and then edit as more are added. That is if you think the results are important enough to keep. Then merge each thread as they finish. As for keeping them straight, you could edit each post in each thread effectively putting a label on each post. The label would be the name of the custom and you could make it a different color, maybe larger type. I don't know exactly how that works but, if you just copy and paste the label it won't be hard, just time consuming. :roll: That way the creator of the custom just needs to look for the name of his or her custom to find feedback.

As I said, I don't know how site maintenance works so I'm just guessing.

[reapersaurus]

The obvious choice is to merge them.
Of course, my opinion doesn't matter, since IMax is the mod making the decision. :roll:

The dates-overlapping will only affect the first few threads primarily - the latter ones will be spread out much more, dates-wise.
If people added their thoughts, it should be saved if it's not inconvenient to save them. May as well, that way anyone who wants to read the archived thread can just look thru that one thread.

[InfinityMax]

ChaosChild, I might actually do that. There has been some decent feedback in these threads, and it would suck to destroy them, or even get them all screwed up so they're useless anyway. I just wish there was a way to make it so all the posts from each thread were together.

[josh-n-papa]

Is it possible to alter the time stamp on the posts?Then you could just give them bogus time/date stamps so all the appropriate posts clump together and don't overlap.

[InfinityMax]

Not that I can see. I've looked, but I'm no web guru, so there may be something I'm missing.

[Doc_Savage]

I wonder if this new trend of changing the cards as we're voting is a good or not. On the Migoi I only changed the class and personality. More recently, powers have come and gone and cards have changed more.

Is this good or not?

I think that it is OK, because it doesn't really change whether the card is listed on the Barracks thread or not. Usually the trend is there and the cards are getting better. Boon got a lot better.

Cards that need more work or are more controversial (like Krijgsheer) will need a fuller reworking and do have the chance to get renominated after changes.

What I really like is that some of the better cards are getting really looked at by the community and there is some good feedback for the creators. The voting threads are also give feedback threads on these cards.

[Rhydderch]

I wonder if this new trend of changing the cards as we're voting is a good or not. On the Migoi I only changed the class and personality. More recently, powers have come and gone and cards have changed more.

I think the reworking of cards is definitely a good thing especially since it is usually in response to what people feel would make the customs more playable. After all HS is not a science: we need to keep the customs balanced but ultimately its more about what people like and what they feel is fun.

Also even the Halls customs sometimes undergo changes before they are fully inducted.

[toddrew]

Imax, (ignore this post if a solution has already been found) for 'what to do with past barracks' voting threads' how about merging all the past votes into an archival thread, and then as the voting closes for each new thread, add it to the archive thread?

[Fallen Templar]

GMT Was Updated he was put in with fixed grammer, spelling, and Balanced out a bit. http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h37/Fallen_Templar7/TRAVEN5.jpg

[justjohn]

Question: Should all of Imax's Argonauts be in a single poll?

[Fallen Templar]

Question: Should all of Imax's Argonauts be in a single poll? Yes their pretty worthless on their own but as a team their quite useful

[Doc_Savage]

Yes, keep Imax's a team.

[Karkadinn]

IMHO, if cards are going to be changed in response to feedback in the polls, the polls themselves should still be voting on the original nominated card and nothing else, otherwise it gets too confusing. If the creator wants to get the new card into the Barracks instead, a second 'free' nomination should be given. You shouldn't have a card that gets the right number of votes and then be able to edit it into whatever you like before it gets put into the Barracks. The Barracks ideally should be a place for cards that are FINISHED being edited, for the most part.
Or does no one else feel similarly?

[Doc_Savage]

I think that it depends on how much the card is changed... Let's not make it too hard for anything to get in. If the card needs huge changes, it's probably not getting the votes anyway.

[Fallen Templar]

IMHO, if cards are going to be changed in response to feedback in the polls, the polls themselves should still be voting on the original nominated card and nothing else, otherwise it gets too confusing. If the creator wants to get the new card into the Barracks instead, a second 'free' nomination should be given. You shouldn't have a card that gets the right number of votes and then be able to edit it into whatever you like before it gets put into the Barracks. The Barracks ideally should be a place for cards that are FINISHED being edited, for the most part.
Or does no one else feel similarly? If the card your reffering to is mine It was updated by suggestions from the voting thread but i agree.

[reapersaurus]

Why would IMax's be put in en masse and truth's Cloud Griffin not be with the Landarian Cloud Warriors and Archers?
Or were they and I missed it? (I'm catching up from the weekend)

caught up - they were added as a seperate thread.
Thx.

[justjohn]

Yeah, I haven't posted them yet. Not being lazy, was just torn about how to post them. They don't suck on their own, or anything, they just seem to be like 1 big squad, but on the other hand, they are independent. I just think their flavor comes mainly from their synergy with eachother.

Looking to get some more input on these before I get them up.

[justjohn]

Sorry guys, I've been gone for a week, and haven't been around to update the Barracks. I thought Imax would do it, but I think he is on vaction as well.

With all of the new official stuff coming out, nominating has ground to a stop. I will get Imax's argonauts up tonight, and there are 2 nominations after that.

Just wanted to give an update.

[Rhydderch]

Cool. Thanks for the update JJ. Good to know what's up :D

[InfinityMax]

And I'm just a slacker. I'm sorry to drop the ball. I have been really busy, and then got pretty sick... but really I'm just really lazy. I need to merge threads and stuff, too.

[toddrew]

Have the barracks taken a hiatus? I've really enjoyed the idea, and it got us more involved with customs - so thanks JJ et al.

[justjohn]

Interest in it sort of died off. I kind of gave up with it. I'd love to get the threads started back up again, if there's interest in doing so.

[Fallen Templar]

Interest in it sort of died off. I kind of gave up with it. I'd love to get the threads started back up again, if there's interest in doing so. I'll do the Threads but the problem is which figure did we end with I thought I wasn't allowed to make threads for this

[toddrew]

Interest in it sort of died off. I kind of gave up with it. I'd love to get the threads started back up again, if there's interest in doing so.

Sounds like it's time for another poll :)

[Fallen Templar]

Interest in it sort of died off. I kind of gave up with it. I'd love to get the threads started back up again, if there's interest in doing so.

Sounds like it's time for another poll :) I made a poll for the unit we left off on

[toddrew]

Interest in it sort of died off. I kind of gave up with it. I'd love to get the threads started back up again, if there's interest in doing so.

Sounds like it's time for another poll :) I made a poll for the unit we left off on

Sorry, I wasn't very clear in my quip :) I meant a poll to gauge interest in actually continuing the exercise, but I guess we'll go straight into seeing how many participate.

[Karkadinn]

Pshaw, everything's fine. People just got lost in the Gencon threads for a while. When the Gencony goodness (and badness) dies down, things will be back to business as usual. Besides, there's a very real need for this kind of thing... a home for cards that are good and solid without necessarily being the best cards ever, where they can be safely archived for future usage by the public regardless of what happens to the creators. We've lost far too many cards from HSnet and HQ due to the lack of something like this.

Edit: Whoops, just realized I'd stuck the nominations in the wrong thread. Was going to switch to the other thread, but Fallen Templar beat me to it, smarmy bugger that he be.... ;)

[Rhydderch]

Interest in it sort of died off. I kind of gave up with it. I'd love to get the threads started back up again, if there's interest in doing so.

I think the Barracks is fine. As Kark mentioned interest is probably down due to the flurry of Gen-Con activity. Also we had Comic Con and the castle rules before that. From what I've seen in the forums its pretty normal for the customs forums to take a hit after some official news is released. Even the Halls has been inactive for about a month now. I expect activity will be back up again in no time at all =)

[Doc_Savage]

The Barracks should be kept alive!

I also agree that in the future, teams should be voted on as a team.

[Karkadinn]

Hmm, the last two nominations haven't had any polls up yet... do they need a certain number of yeas before they get a poll, or is the person who nominated them supposed to make the poll thread, or what? Pardon my ignorance.
(Also, this thread should be a sticky, IMHO.)

[Rhydderch]

Good job to whomever got the barracks poll threads back on track. Thanks! Also can we add some clarification to the first post about the voting procedure? Right now it looks like a custom will make it in as long as it receives 13 votes regardless of whether that is the majority. Maybe write:
___________

Each poll will run for 3 days and must receive at least 20 total (yes-no) votes. Should a custom not receive at least 20 total votes after 3 days, the voting period will be extended until the custom receives at least 20 votes. In order to be submitted to the Barracks a custom must:

A) Receive a minimum of 13 yes votes.
B) Receive a majority of yes votes.

If the custom does not receive enough votes to be entered into the Barracks the creator has the option to modify the card with feedback provided in the voting thread. The re-submitted card will then be replaced in the nomination queue.
___________

Also is it possible to start a thread with the poll closed and then edit it so the poll is opened? I think it might help the voting process if we are allowed a few hours to a day to discuss the customs before people vote on them. It would also give the creator a chance to make potential changes BEFORE people start to vote rather than after (though they would still have that option too).

[toddrew]

___________

Also is it possible to start a thread with the poll closed and then edit it so the poll is opened? I think it might help the voting process if we are allowed a few hours to a day to discuss the customs before people vote on them. It would also give the creator a chance to make potential changes BEFORE people start to vote rather than after (though they would still have that option too).

I hope this can be incorporated - great idea, Rhydderch.

[Grungebob]

Also is it possible to start a thread with the poll closed and then edit it so the poll is opened? I think it might help the voting process if we are allowed a few hours to a day to discuss the customs before people vote on them. It would also give the creator a chance to make potential changes BEFORE people start to vote rather than after (though they would still have that option too).Yes just start the thread and at a later time/date just edit it and add the poll options.

[Rhydderch]

Also is it possible to start a thread with the poll closed and then edit it so the poll is opened? I think it might help the voting process if we are allowed a few hours to a day to discuss the customs before people vote on them. It would also give the creator a chance to make potential changes BEFORE people start to vote rather than after (though they would still have that option too).Yes just start the thread and at a later time/date just edit it and add the poll options.

Cool! Thanks for the input GB!

[MementoMori]

I like the idea of adding the poll later too

[justjohn]

Np at all guys. I can start adding the polls later.

But I can't say I completely agree, as the nominations are up for several days(if not longer) in the stickied nomination thread before they ever come up for voting, which I think is ample time to voice concerns about the custom.

[Rhydderch]

Np at all guys. I can start adding the polls later.

But I can't say I completely agree, as the nominations are up for several days(if not longer) in the stickied nomination thread before they ever come up for voting, which I think is ample time to voice concerns about the custom.

Well once we get through the next couple of nominations we will be all caught up. Also almost no one discusses the nominations before they go to vote. I do not think people check the nomination thread regularly. Instead I believe they simply use the thread to drop their nominations when they have them.

[reapersaurus]

Np at all guys. I can start adding the polls later.

But I can't say I completely agree, as the nominations are up for several days(if not longer) in the stickied nomination thread before they ever come up for voting, which I think is ample time to voice concerns about the custom.As I understood it, the nominations thread was not acceptable to add comments about the nominees in it.

I was going to comment on many of them there, but didn't because I thought it was frowned upon.
Currently, there is no place to make issues with nominees known to the public until the second their poll gets put up, but by that time many people have already voted after looking at the card for 5 seconds.

It's obvious there is a quality control problem with Barracks voting - I just don't think anything can be done about it, sadly. It's inherent to the public poll format.

[LilNewbie]

One idea is to post a link, along with the nomination, to the creator's thread where the unit card was first posted and direct comments there.

Newb.

[Rhydderch]

As I understood it, the nominations thread was not acceptable to add comments about the nominees in it.

Yeah. That too. I had no idea you could comment on the nominations in the nominations thread. Thanks for pointing that out Reaper.

[reapersaurus]

As I understood it, the nominations thread was not acceptable to add comments about the nominees in it.

Yeah. That too. I had no idea you could comment on the nominations in the nominations thread. We thought that, because justjohn said in the 1st post:

Rules:
1)Post nominations only.

[justjohn]

You guys are all correct. But there is a Barracks Discusion Thread, that is always open for discussion. We're in it. I think, for the most part, every custom that has been nominated, is poll worthy, as is. Yes, some of them have needed minor tweaks, but most have been ready to roll.

Like I said, I don't mind suspending the polls at all, and will be more than happy to do it if that's what the generally consensus is.

On a side note, I DO like the idea of posting a link to the nominated custom's creator's thread (that was a mouthfull), for commentary to continue there.

To address something else, which is very important, if you're gonna take the time to vote in the barracks, please take the time to comment, unless you vote "yes" and your opinions on the custom just echo everyone else's who also voted yes. Seriously. You may not be a Custom Unit forum regular, and that is fine, but when you just vote NO, and don't state your reasoning, it makes it very difficult for the creator, or other voters, to address the problem with the custom.

[Rhydderch]

Like I said, I don't mind suspending the polls at all, and will be more than happy to do it if that's what the generally consensus is.

That would be great. Even if it does not work out I would like to give it a trial run to see if we get better analysis of the customs. I also think it is a great idea to post a link to the creator's thread. Good catch there!

[reapersaurus]

You guys are all correct. But there is a Barracks Discusion Thread, that is always open for discussion. We're in it. I think, for the most part, every custom that has been nominated, is poll worthy, as is. Yes, some of them have needed minor tweaks, but most have been ready to roll.

Like I said, I don't mind suspending the polls at all, and will be more than happy to do it if that's what the generally consensus is.

On a side note, I DO like the idea of posting a link to the nominated custom's creator's thread (that was a mouthfull), for commentary to continue there.

To address something else, which is very important, if you're gonna take the time to vote in the barracks, please take the time to comment, unless you vote "yes" and your opinions on the custom just echo everyone else's who also voted yes. Seriously. You may not be a Custom Unit forum regular, and that is fine, but when you just vote NO, and don't state your reasoning, it makes it very difficult for the creator, or other voters, to address the problem with the custom.I know you were being politically correct, but let's face it and be honest - there are obviously people voting that have no business doing so, since they have proven that they don;t have the ability to comprehend HS point costs and abilities.

I'll be the bad customs designer that says this, to spare the many of you that feel this way the trouble:
For someone to vote no (as they have done MANY times already) and not explain why and support it with a valid reason proves that the vote should not count.
Without SOME basis, a NO vote is worthless.

On the other hand, there have been countless Yes votes that are simply not supported, either. I strongly disagree with a couple of the customs in the Barracks currently (Praetorian Guards and Aliens and Xirvok etc) and believe they got in when they didn't deserve to. This is no offense to any of the people involved in the creation of them, as I made clear in those polls. And there were many completely-unqualified units that got MANY many Yes votes, remember. How could that possibly have happened, if voters were qualified to understand HS customs?

But when we have vastly-different custom qualities making it in, and better units not making it in, by multiple creators, it begs the question - how obvious does the public-poll problem have to get to realize HS customs are too involved for a popular vote that takes 5 seconds to cast?

I fear the convenience of a poll may just be a hindrance to the accuracy of the vote.

Now - having said all this, I still am not against the Barracks, even as is - I think they provide a valuable benefit in exposing more people to (usually) well-made and creative customs, and that is a vital resource in the customs community.
Consider this basically a protest vote and an objection to some of the vote outcomes thus far, and at the same time a hope that voters would spend more time understanding a custom effort before voting No OR yes to it.

Removing the polls would be a nice start, to make people justify their answers, even if just "Yes, cause of the reasons stated so far"

[CornPuff]

Removing the polls would be a nice start, to make people justify their answers, even if just "Yes, cause of the reasons stated so far"

I think Reaper is onto something. You guys could still call it a poll, but just use a manual tally that the thread creator edits into the first post. People cast their vote by *gasp* posting it, hopefully with a reason.

[justjohn]

That's a good idea, CP.

[Doc_Savage]

I'm ok with tallying the yeas and nays in the posts and not having a 'poll'.

[Rhydderch]

I'm ok with tallying the yeas and nays in the posts and not having a 'poll'.

If we count the posts in a poll does that mean we would allow people to change their votes? I think it would be a good idea since people sometimes change their mind when they think about a custom more.

Also there have been times when people did not like the original nominated custom but were ok with later revisions.

[Grungebob]

I do not want the polls to go away. I do not want Reaper jumping down the throat of anybody who votes no for a custom he likes or votes yes for one he doesn't like. I don't want people to have to qualify their reasonongs at all. I don't want people to avoid the Barracks because of custom bullies and self proclaimed experts. I see this and I think it is sour grapes that is at the heart of this. Leave the polling system as is. Let folks have their own reasons for voting yes or no. Anything that makes people afraid to vote is not a good idea. Let the people choose on a case by case whether they want to talk about their vote but not be forced to...

[MementoMori]

I do not want the polls to go away. I do not want Reaper jumping down the throat of anybody who votes no for a custom he likes or votes yes for one he doesn't like. I don't want people to have to qualify their reasonongs at all. I don't want people to avoid the Barracks because of custom bullies and self proclaimed experts. I see this and I think it is sour grapes that is at the heart of this. Leave the polling system as is. Let folks have their own reasons for voting yes or no. Anything that makes people afraid to vote is not a good idea. Let the people choose on a case by case whether they want to talk about their vote but not be forced to...

Lots of trues here

[LilNewbie]

Excellent points, GB! It's difficult enough to get people to vote on the Nominated units as is. Changing it to force people to discuss how/why they voted would turn it into another Halls discussion with only 3 or 4 people daring to throw their viewpoint out there. The idea behind the Barracks was not perfection or the best of the best but units that people have or would enjoy using in a friendly game (at least, that's my take on it.) I agree with GB, leave it as it is and allow people to put their opinion or remain anonymous as they see fit.

Just because a person doesn't like every unit in the Barracks, that doesn't make the barracks obsolete or useless. People enjoy this game for different reasons and the same goes for customs.

Newb.

[reapersaurus]

Oh, well as long as grungebob WANTS it, then it will happen. :roll:

Good thing that was decided. That was easy.

I think whoever is spending the effort to make the threads makes the decisions.
IIRC, that would be justjohn and IMax.

[LilNewbie]

Oh, well as long as grungebob WANTS it, then it will happen. :roll:

Good thing that was decided. That was easy.

I think whoever is spending the effort to make the threads makes the decisions.
IIRC, that would be justjohn and IMax.

I'm hoping you are just kidding. If not, lighten up. GB gave his opinion that is all. If the people running the barracks want to go to a non-poll situation they can.

Newb.

[reapersaurus]

LilNewbie - GB's post wasn't worded "light".
He was quite demanding and forceful.

As long as it's just one voice among many, and the people running the barracks are the ones that make the decision as to the format they think leads to the best barracks, then that's cool.

My opinion is - if someone doesn't want to spend 1 minute typing out the reason(s) why they voted, then they shouldn't be voting.
All creators know that a vote without learning the reason why is of dubious value to customs.

[Rhydderch]

I do not want the polls to go away. I do not want Reaper jumping down the throat of anybody who votes no for a custom he likes or votes yes for one he doesn't like. I don't want people to have to qualify their reasonongs at all. I don't want people to avoid the Barracks because of custom bullies and self proclaimed experts. I see this and I think it is sour grapes that is at the heart of this.

Actually as the person who started the discussion I take some offense here. I most certainly did not suggest the changes for sour grapes. Rather I have noticed people sometimes change their initial stance on a custom after they have voted. Often people do not take the time to think about the custom at all and vote on it. Even if they have questions they will simply vote yes or no before the creator has a chance to respond.

To put it into perspective I personally do not vote until one or two days have gone by so I have a chance to read the discussion and think about the custom. There have been several times when I have changed my own opinion after I read the thoughts of the creator or the other voters. So in no way was my suggestion meant to allow me to bully anyone. I would simply like to see more thought put into the Barracks when people vote.

Anything that makes people afraid to vote is not a good idea. Let the people choose on a case by case whether they want to talk about their vote but not be forced to...

Also I do understand your concern. If we make it too hard people may not want to vote. That is why I initially suggested we keep the polls but lock for a day so we could start discussions first. I also suggested a trial period in order for us to see if we can make these changes or if people would simply choose not to vote. I do try to look at both sides when I make a suggestion.

[LilNewbie]

If you go down this route, I can see the barracks becoming a second halls thread and we sure see a lot of traffic on that one don't we? People post a card they like and then sometimes receive thinly veiled rude comments about why they shouldn't like it or should like it. And heaven forbid, if you disagree with some of the more vocal members. Sorry, I'm just tired of seeing people interested in the customs chased off due to some overly agressive opinion giving. Good luck with the barracks.


Newb.

[Karkadinn]

I doubt we'd see many non-regs even attempting to disagree with Reaper in public.
About anything.
It takes a lot of energy. ;)

[skyknight]

I still hear flack over voting Selene down because I am not a big fan of licensed characters. When the barracks first came out I thought it was going to be a "we like this as acommunity" "we don't like this as a community" kinda thing. To be honest the figs get so henpecked I have kinda drifted off the barracks thread because sometimes its just way to much squaking. Maybe I am not as passionate about these things possibly but reading six pages of discussion on a figs special ability is a little like watching paint dry. We are already having trouble getting decent votes here with the way it is. Imagine if you make every single person qualify their statements. Your numbers will go even further down and soon it will be four or five guys discussing customs.

I know there are those here who feel that non custom making folks and new folks really should not vote off the cuff. But the original question of the barracks was would you allow this character on your table. When you ask an open ended question like that, well you will get some yes and no answers. I have voted no on customs before simply because I did not like the feel of em. I also know that if I post that I really do not like the feel of this custom and it's not something that interests me.....well watch out cause in come the Banshees screamin and wailin. Me, well I really don't care but for others who knows.

[reapersaurus]

If you go down this route, I can see the barracks becoming a second halls thread and we sure see a lot of traffic on that one don't we? People post a card they like and then sometimes receive thinly veiled rude comments about why they shouldn't like it or should like it. And heaven forbid, if you disagree with some of the more vocal members. Sorry, I'm just tired of seeing people interested in the customs chased off due to some overly agressive opinion giving. Good luck with the barracks.


Newb.I absolutely take offense to this, and consider it an insult to all the people that have spent their energies and personal time and knowledge trying to determine the strengths of various Halls nominees.

The judges of the Halls (grungebob, karkadinn, myself, ArchonShiva, and Ryhdderch) have gone out of our way to discuss Halls nominees openly and honestly. All the discussion is in the open so people can see it - there are no PM's or hidden agendas - we have always strived to get to the heart of the unit and better the custom and have proved this by countless posts.

I oppose this entire dismissal and blanket denegration of everyone's Halls efforts.

[reapersaurus]

I still hear flack over voting Selene down because I am not a big fan of licensed characters. Just to clarify - I looked up the Selene thread and didn't see anyone who did this to you.
A quote would be helpful, instead of potentially-flawed memories.

Imagine if you make every single person qualify their statements. Gee I don't know - maybe the votes would be more informed, accurate, and less drive-by knee-jerk reaction? :shrug:
How could that be bad?

I know there are those here who feel that non custom making folks and new folks really should not vote off the cuff. Correct - I find the entire concept of people who don't know Heroscape units, and don't care about reading the card before clicking a button and expressing their all-important opinion to be an anathema to the stated purpose of the Barracks and an insult that their unexamined opinion that is based on nothing but vague superficial ignorance holds just as much weight as someone who has spent countless hours learning to become informed and spending the time to actually understand what the custom works like.

Again, how is expecting even the smallest bit of time and interest before imposing their vote (which easily could be (and has been) the difference between a worthy custom being spotlighted or not).

I also know that if I post that I really do not like the feel of this custom and it's not something that interests me.....well watch out cause in come the Banshees screamin and wailin. I just read about 10 pages of the threads for many polls, and all I saw was people giving opinions about the cards and about the criteria/approach of the barracks.
In fact, I saw "Reaper I find your opinion helpful and insightful" and further impersonal comments that appreciated the insights delivered, by many knowledgable customs fans that POST to the threads.

Guys, let's not lose sight here - it is FEEDBACK that helps customs creators learn what people are thinking & perceiving about their units, not the click of a button.

[LilNewbie]

If you go down this route, I can see the barracks becoming a second halls thread and we sure see a lot of traffic on that one don't we? People post a card they like and then sometimes receive thinly veiled rude comments about why they shouldn't like it or should like it. And heaven forbid, if you disagree with some of the more vocal members. Sorry, I'm just tired of seeing people interested in the customs chased off due to some overly agressive opinion giving. Good luck with the barracks.


Newb.I absolutely take offense to this, and consider it an insult to all the people that have spent their energies and personal time and knowledge trying to determine the strengths of various Halls nominees.

The judges of the Halls (grungebob, karkadinn, myself, ArchonShiva, and Ryhdderch) have gone out of our way to discuss Halls nominees openly and honestly. All the discussion is in the open so people can see it - there are no PM's or hidden agendas - we have always strived to get to the heart of the unit and better the custom and have proved this by countless posts.

I oppose this entire dismissal and blanket denegration of everyone's Halls efforts.

You can oppose my statements all you want but it doesn't change the fact that no one has posted a nomination in the halls for a long time. I'm not trying to slam anyone and anyone posting units in that forum should expect a much more critical look at the units posted but it seems that the barracks have gone the same route (that was the intent of my original point.) I thought the halls and barracks were great ideas. The barracks (as stated by many, many people) were for fun units (i.e. units you would like use in the game) not ground-breaking or "setting the standard" units and I think it should stay away from hyper-critical estimation of a unit. If there are some fixes cool but to heavily weigh whether a unit is going to be extremely balanced instead of whether it's a fun idea detracts from what the barracks was set up to do.

Thanks for playing the martyr so well.

Newb.

[justjohn]

On the next Barracks voting poll, it will have the poll delayed for 24 hours.

I want to play it that way first, to see if it helps or hurts anything. I really don't want to make it more difficult to vote. I also am unsure how much of an effect it will have on random voting.

Let me stop here and say that I don't want to chase anyyone away from voting. There is noone on these forums that I dislike, but I know that some people don't feel the same way as I do. With that being said, this isn't the real world. If someone is making you feel uncomfortable, toss them on ignore and vote away. Your opinions are your opinions, and you're entitled to them. I also have to apologize for my somewhat rash outburst over Reaper's Mammoth, which I think started this whole incident, it just seemed like some people who voted didn't think this one through. This occurs sometimes when that much wanted feedback comes in the form of "2 pworfel!!!1!" A bit of exageration, but I hope most of you catch my drift.

I don't mind if someone doesn't post why they voted a certain way. Yes, it is curteous, and if you've ever posted a fresh custom and you saw your views jump signifigantly, but next to last post is still "your name", you'll know how it feels.

In closing, vote, please vote. I set this up to be as easy as it could be. If you want to take a few seconds and say why you voted the way you did, it's not a requirement, but it would be very nice if you did.

PS

WE NEED MORE NOMINATIONS!

John.

[LilNewbie]

Thanks, JJ! I like the idea of the voting being delayed for 24 hours. That lets everyone comment and changes made to the custom before we have to decide.

:thumbsup:

Newb.

[Grungebob]

I do not want the polls to go away. I do not want Reaper jumping down the throat of anybody who votes no for a custom he likes or votes yes for one he doesn't like. I don't want people to have to qualify their reasonongs at all. I don't want people to avoid the Barracks because of custom bullies and self proclaimed experts. I see this and I think it is sour grapes that is at the heart of this.

Actually as the person who started the discussion I take some offense here. I most certainly did not suggest the changes for sour grapes. Rather I have noticed people sometimes change their initial stance on a custom after they have voted. Often people do not take the time to think about the custom at all and vote on it. Even if they have questions they will simply vote yes or no before the creator has a chance to respond.

To put it into perspective I personally do not vote until one or two days have gone by so I have a chance to read the discussion and think about the custom. There have been several times when I have changed my own opinion after I read the thoughts of the creator or the other voters. So in no way was my suggestion meant to allow me to bully anyone. I would simply like to see more thought put into the Barracks when people vote.

Anything that makes people afraid to vote is not a good idea. Let the people choose on a case by case whether they want to talk about their vote but not be forced to...

Also I do understand your concern. If we make it too hard people may not want to vote. That is why I initially suggested we keep the polls but lock for a day so we could start discussions first. I also suggested a trial period in order for us to see if we can make these changes or if people would simply choose not to vote. I do try to look at both sides when I make a suggestion.I think you must have misunderstood my post. I am all for a waiting period of discussion but I am against the removal of an anonymous poll to determine results. My comment about sour grapes comes from the fact that this particular discussion is being spearheaded by the very people who are mad that their custom is not doing as well as they expected in the polls. They want somebody to lash out at and are denied that because of the secret poll. It sure looks like sour grapes, but if I'm wrong well, I'm sorry but at least you all know how it is being perceived.

[Rhydderch]

I think you must have misunderstood my post. I am all for a waiting period of discussion but I am against the removal of an anonymous poll to determine results.

Ahh. I did misunderstand your post. I thought you meant the entire discussion was sour grapes which I felt was unfair. It also surprised me since you had earlier given feedback on how to delay the poll!

My comment about sour grapes comes from the fact that this particular discussion is being spearheaded by the very people who are mad that their custom is not doing as well as they expected in the polls. They want somebody to lash out at and are denied that because of the secret poll. It sure looks like sour grapes, but if I'm wrong well, I'm sorry but at least you all know how it is being perceived.

I see. Actually I started the discussion in response to the last poll not the current one because:

A) It would allow the first voters to at least have the option to read any comments and reflect on them. One or two people mentioned they had not realized the potential problems with the custom until after I had posted my thoughts.

B) It would allow the creator time to respond to any comments. Atmospro revealed many points about his custom which I did not realize from my reading of his card. Similarly I think Reaper has run into the same problem with his War Mammoth in the current poll.

Also I felt it would help because many of the nominated customs are changed after the creator receives comments. Therefore I felt it would help if the discussion started before the poll did so the creator would have the option to make any necessary changes before the polls started.

Anyway as I said before it may indeed deter people from voting, in which case we can always scrap it. I just thought it was worth trying out. Also one last suggestion: if we find that no one votes on the next nominated custom because of the changes I would suggest we re-add the custom to the queue line so it has a fair chance at the polls.

[Grungebob]

Anyway as I said before it may indeed deter people from voting, in which case we can always scrap it. I just thought it was worth trying out. Also one last suggestion: if we find that no one votes on the next nominated custom because of the changes I would suggest we re-add the custom to the queue line so it has a fair chance at the polls.I don't see why a viewing period would deter voting. It does not force anybody to defend their reasons for voting one way or the other. The only thing that could happen is you might have minimal discussion that is of any value because some people are made to feel small when voicing opinions and so simply stop voicing them. Others read the threads and see how some people are treated when voicing opinions, and decide never to post at all. This doesn't mean that they are uninformed voters at all. They may be quite knowledgable about Heroscape but just would prefer to avoid the bullies.

[Rhydderch]

Anyway as I said before it may indeed deter people from voting, in which case we can always scrap it. I just thought it was worth trying out. Also one last suggestion: if we find that no one votes on the next nominated custom because of the changes I would suggest we re-add the custom to the queue line so it has a fair chance at the polls.I don't see why a viewing period would deter voting. It does not force anybody to defend their reasons for voting one way or the other.

I basically mentioned it as a "just in case" since you never know. Someone could click on the polls and think it is already closed instead of open, not realizing we had changed the way it works in our discussions here. Or maybe they would know. I have to admit I'm not really sure how the poll threads here work.

[LilNewbie]

Just put in the first post on the first line in big bold letters with the card below when the poll will open and then change it to Open Voting when it does open.

Newb.

[Grungebob]

Anyway as I said before it may indeed deter people from voting, in which case we can always scrap it. I just thought it was worth trying out. Also one last suggestion: if we find that no one votes on the next nominated custom because of the changes I would suggest we re-add the custom to the queue line so it has a fair chance at the polls.I don't see why a viewing period would deter voting. It does not force anybody to defend their reasons for voting one way or the other.

I basically mentioned it as a "just in case" since you never know. Someone could click on the polls and think it is already closed instead of open, not realizing we had changed the way it works in our discussions here. Or maybe they would know. I have to admit I'm not really sure how the poll threads here work.Simply put in the title that it is the viewing/discussion period:

"Barracks Nominee: JotunsMamma for discussion until 9/14"

[Rhydderch]

Ahh ok. Thanks GB and Lil. I'm glad I'm not in charge of the polls. I'd probably botch it up!

Will you be nominating JotunsMamma for the Barracks GB? =P

[Grungebob]

Ahh ok. Thanks GB and Lil. I'm glad I'm not in charge of the polls. I'd probably botch it up!

Will you be nominating JotunsMamma for the Barracks GB? =PDude I don't even know Jotun'sMamma... Ask Chaoschild!!