Rejected by Death + Frenzy, etc.

[IAmBatman]

So your beast of a Thanos has fallen. Luckily, it's the end of the round, so you can place all your turn markers on your venocs and try to run around the board, holding off your enemy in hopes of rolling that 19 for rejected by death.
You turn over your first turn marker on the Venocs, roll for rejected by death, don't get it, take your turn with the Venocs, roll for frenzy, DO get it ... and then you get to roll for rejected by death again, right?
I'm pretty sure this is true, after reviewing both of the powers, but I was curious if there were any dissenters that could make compelling cases.

"Rejected by Death
At the start of each of your turns after Thanos has been destroyed, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 19 or higher, immediately place Thanos on a space adjacent to any figure you control and remove all Wound Markers on Thanos’ card."

"Frenzy
After you take a turn with Venoc Vipers; roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 16 or higher you may take another turn with Venoc Vipers."

[netherspirit]

Disregarding the fact that Classic and Marvel aren't designed to be played together...based on the wording of the powers I would say your assumption is correct.

[I Am The Game!!!]

Yes. I Think Because It Says On Frenzy You an Have Another Turn......COWER BEFORE THANOS :( :( :(

[IAmBatman]

Disregarding the fact that Classic and Marvel aren't designed to be played together...based on the wording of the powers I would say your assumption is correct. :nether:

It's something important to disregard. Because they will be played together, so these questions will come up. Certainly not by everyone, but by enough folks to make such topics highly viable.

[johnny139]

Frenzy = More Chances. That's how I'll play it, anyways.

[netherspirit]

Disregarding the fact that Classic and Marvel aren't designed to be played together...based on the wording of the powers I would say your assumption is correct. :nether:

It's something important to disregard. Because they will be played together, so these questions will come up. Certainly not by everyone, but by enough folks to make such topics highly viable.

I didn't say the topic wasn't viable. If I didn't think it was viable I would have deleted it or locked it. :twisted:

I think we need to wait for a MarvelScape rulebook, because there might be some rule in there that defines "the start of your turn" as when you reveal your order marker, in which case the answer to your question would be no.

EDIT - Actually, I just went and looked in the Master Game Rules for classic Scape and it looks to be defined that way. "Start your turn by revealing your order marker for that turn,"

It could be argued that thats the only time the power triggers...

[IAmBatman]

I didn't say the topic wasn't viable. If I didn't think it was viable I would have deleted it or locked it. :twisted:

I think we need to wait for a MarvelScape rulebook, because there might be some rule in there that defines "the start of your turn" as when you reveal your order marker, in which case the answer to your question would be no.

EDIT - Actually, I just went and looked in the Master Game Rules for classic Scape and it looks to be defined that way. "Start your turn by revealing your order marker for that turn,"

It could be argued that thats the only time the power triggers...

Oh, I know you're ok with it, I was just looking for an excuse to taunt you with a little Nether cheerleader emoticon, and I figured that didn't make much of a post all on its own.
And what you slip into that edit there is exactly why I thought this power might be debatable. You're definitely right about waiting for the rulebook to become available, though. Just with this shiny new section, hard to resist posting in it!

[IAmBatman]

Besides, on the very, very off chance that Craig and co haven't finished throwing things all together and are checking out these boards, maybe they'll think about tweaking their wording to address something that comes up in here before the game is released? Who knows?

[Dartheyegouger]

Hold on, so even without Frenzy, you can use Rejected by Death 3 times per Round?

[IAmBatman]

Hold on, so even without Frenzy, you can use Rejected by Death 3 times per Round?

Sure, just so long as Thanos was destroyed before the round began. Of course, you still need a free space next to a non-destroyed friendly figure and a roll of 19 or higher to make it work.
But man, if you do? 360 points back from the grave - rough.

[ej]

Besides, on the very, very off chance that Craig and co haven't finished throwing things all together and are checking out these boards, maybe they'll think about tweaking their wording to address something that comes up in here before the game is released? Who knows?

They have. The game is in shipping.

[rdhight]

Seems like if they wanted it to be a 10% chance per initiative roll, they would have used a "before placing order markers" wording similar to the Drop. You roll for RbD, and if Thanos comes back, you place him, then place your order markers, then roll init. So I'm thinking it's per order marker, minimum, and you can't put markers on him right away.

As for Frenzy... my guess is, it should give you an extra roll as written, but Hasbro will probably come back and say Death only rejects you once per order marker.

Sure wish they would move the Flying text to the rulebook and start answering a few more questions like this right on the card.

[philowar]

I had the same question as it relates to bonding. Say you've fielded Thanos + Armocs + Venoc Warlord. If you're taking a turn with the Armocs and you activate Venoc Warlord using Ullar Warlord Bonding, can you roll for Rejected by Death before moving VW and then again before moving the Armocs? I mean, technically you're taking two turns, one with VW and then one with your squad of Armocs.

I do understand why Craig said compatible but not officially endorsed/recommended. Mixing the two sets will open a big can of worms, or a whole lot of little ones.

[Eclipse]

I had the same question as it relates to bonding. Say you've fielded Thanos + Armocs + Venoc Warlord. If you're taking a turn with the Armocs and you activate Venoc Warlord using Ullar Warlord Bonding, can you roll for Rejected by Death before moving VW and then again before moving the Armocs? I mean, technically you're taking two turns, one with VW and then one with your squad of Armocs.

I do understand why Craig said compatible but not officially endorsed/recommended. Mixing the two sets will open a big can of worms, or a whole lot of little ones.

The question is still valid in Marvel alone. Dr. Doom's card clearly allows you to take multiple turns per order marker. (Note: Red Skull's card, clearly does NOT).

[InfinityMax]

How about an orc army that gets six activations per round? Is that six Thanos rolls? Or what if, as someone suggested, Doom gets lucky three times? Is that six Thanos rolls?

I think it is. Thanos is one hard SOB to keep dead. You gotta kill him last.

[jcb231]

Disregarding the fact that Classic and Marvel aren't designed to be played together...based on the wording of the powers I would say your assumption is correct. :nether:

It's something important to disregard. Because they will be played together, so these questions will come up. Certainly not by everyone, but by enough folks to make such topics highly viable.

I didn't say the topic wasn't viable. If I didn't think it was viable I would have deleted it or locked it. :twisted:

I think we need to wait for a MarvelScape rulebook, because there might be some rule in there that defines "the start of your turn" as when you reveal your order marker, in which case the answer to your question would be no.

EDIT - Actually, I just went and looked in the Master Game Rules for classic Scape and it looks to be defined that way. "Start your turn by revealing your order marker for that turn,"

It could be argued that thats the only time the power triggers...

I would think that if Hasbro decides to comment on mixed games, they will say it only happens once per turn marker. Any other way seems way too powerful, even for 360 points.

[IAmBatman]

Eclipse brings up a good point, though, JCB - with Doom around you can still have more than one "turn" per order marker. So it matters for Marvel only games as well as mixed games.
So the important question to resolve seems what constitutes a "turn" for the power on the card? It seems logical to conclude that any time a card says to "take a turn with X" that gives you an opportunity to roll, whether it's bonding, mind exchange, frenzy, or what not. I'm in the more than 3 chances per round with a little luck camp.

[jaques]

Without an official ruling, I think somebody needs to scour the rules and compare references to "your turn" with references to "a turn."

As cool as it would be to keep rolling with Thanos, when I think of "my turn," I include the whole period between my opponent being done and my next opponent starting a turn.

Something to ponder: if "a turn" and "your turn" are equivalent, then the game rules have no terminology to describe the entire set of actions taken by a player on his or her order marker.

[netherspirit]

Without an official ruling, I think somebody needs to scour the rules and compare references to "your turn" with references to "a turn."

As cool as it would be to keep rolling with Thanos, when I think of "my turn," I include the whole period between my opponent being done and my next opponent starting a turn.

Something to ponder: if "a turn" and "your turn" are equivalent, then the game rules have no terminology to describe the entire set of actions taken by a player on his or her order marker.

We don't have a rulebook for Marvel HS yet. :P

[theGuru]

Hey Guys,

I know i'm new, but I wanted to chime in.

Thanos' card states "at the start of each of your turns". There is your key. It doesn't say anything about a Turn Marker (which they have done more recently-Ornak, etc). A Turn, is a Turn. when you take a turn with a figure for WHATEVER reason, you roll for Rejected by Death.

Powers like bonding, and Mind Exchange 17 say "take a turn". YOU are taking that turn. That is YOUR turn, so before you take that turn, you roll again for Thanos' rejected by death.

For Powers like frenzy, you take another turn (if your lucky with the d20 today). YOU are taking that turn. Roll again for Thanos' rejected by death.

I hope that helps.

This ruling is GuruGuaranteed.

[Grungebob]

That sure could lead to some odd tactics.

[truth]

Hey Guys,

I know i'm new, but I wanted to chime in.

Thanos' card states "at the start of each of your turns". There is your key. It doesn't say anything about a Turn Marker (which they have done more recently-Ornak, etc). A Turn, is a Turn. when you take a turn with a figure for WHATEVER reason, you roll for Rejected by Death.

Powers like bonding, and Mind Exchange 17 say "take a turn". YOU are taking that turn. That is YOUR turn, so before you take that turn, you roll again for Thanos' rejected by death.

For Powers like frenzy, you take another turn (if your lucky with the d20 today). YOU are taking that turn. Roll again for Thanos' rejected by death.

I hope that helps.

This ruling is GuruGuaranteed.

I'm willing to vouche for the Guru's knowledge of the game despite his newness.

[InfinityMax]

I'm willing to vouche for the Guru's knowledge of the game despite his newness.

That's good enough for me. Welcome aboard, Guru.

[theGuru]

I'm willing to vouche for the Guru's knowledge of the game despite his newness.

That's good enough for me. Welcome aboard, Guru.

Thanks I-Max :-) It's nice to be on board.

[Grungebob]

400 point Thanos army. Thanos and one squad of Venoc Vipers.

[IAmBatman]

Though I'm not sure I'm ready to take a "guru guarantee" to the bank :P I agree with your analysis, Guru. Well put.

[theGuru]

Though I'm not sure I'm ready to take a "guru guarantee" to the bank :P I agree with your analysis, Guru. Well put.

Don't worry about the hesitation. I totally understand & I'm glad to hear you agree with my analysis. :-)

[IAmBatman]

Just keep the posts coming. This community can always use more intelligent posters.

[Syvarris the Ruler]

well since this is true i should get some vipers if im gonna be playing with thanos

[jcb231]

Hey Guys,

I know i'm new, but I wanted to chime in.

Thanos' card states "at the start of each of your turns". There is your key. It doesn't say anything about a Turn Marker (which they have done more recently-Ornak, etc). A Turn, is a Turn. when you take a turn with a figure for WHATEVER reason, you roll for Rejected by Death.

Powers like bonding, and Mind Exchange 17 say "take a turn". YOU are taking that turn. That is YOUR turn, so before you take that turn, you roll again for Thanos' rejected by death.

For Powers like frenzy, you take another turn (if your lucky with the d20 today). YOU are taking that turn. Roll again for Thanos' rejected by death.

I hope that helps.

This ruling is GuruGuaranteed.

As the card is written, yes, I agree with you. I wonder though if that was truly the design intention. I think it is worth asking for a clarification once the product is released. Remember the rats? Their card clearly allowed them to scatter from a friendly attack, but Hasbro stepped in and errata'd that away, just like they errata'd Taelord to have Stealth Flying. I wonder if they will step in here as well and say that a Frenzy Thanos roll combo would be too powerful and that turn means order marker in this case.....or if the Frenzy combo possibility was their intention all along?

[IAmBatman]

Needing to roll a 16+ to have another shot at a 19+ doesn't really break the game or overpower this combo, IMO. You still need a good deal of dice mojo.

[Grungebob]

Needing to roll a 16+ to have another shot at a 19+ doesn't really break the game or overpower this combo, IMO. You still need a good deal of dice mojo.All you gotta do is succeed once.. Then you got Thanos back and it is game over.

[IAmBatman]

Well, yes, no one's questioning that. What I'm saying is that the addition of Frenzy doesn't statistically raise the chances of that one success so significantly as to be a huge deal. You only have a 25% of frenzying to begin with, so it's not like you're going to add *that* many extra chances at Rejected by Death (which is very difficult to get to begin with, no matter how many tries at it you have).
Also, with the Vipers being so easy to kill (0 defense dice), you might be better served pairing Thanos with a sturdier squad or unit that might end up having more turns in the longrun just by surviving.

[Grungebob]

Well, yes, no one's questioning that. What I'm saying is that the addition of Frenzy doesn't statistically raise the chances of that one success so significantly as to be a huge deal. You only have a 25% of frenzying to begin with, so it's not like you're going to add *that* many extra chances at Rejected by Death (which is very difficult to get to begin with, no matter how many tries at it you have).
Also, with the Vipers being so easy to kill (0 defense dice), you might be better served pairing Thanos with a sturdier squad or unit that might end up having more turns in the longrun just by surviving.If you look back you'll see, I was talking about a 400 point army that included Thanos.... Not a whole lot of options, but if your strategy is to generate more turns and therefor more Thanos chances at 40 points or less, I'm wondering who else you'd pick.

[IAmBatman]

At 400 points there's not a whole lot of choices that are going to compete with the Venocs. I think Theracus might give them a run for their money as far as generating new turns, though, just because his flying ability will allow him to get around a lot faster than the Venocs on larger maps. His 3 life and 3 defense, while nothing amazing, are also sturdier than 3 figures with 1 life and 0 defense. Frenzy is great, but you're putting your hopes into getting luck - Theracus would be the more reliable performer in a case like this.

[Aldin]

Well, yes, no one's questioning that. What I'm saying is that the addition of Frenzy doesn't statistically raise the chances of that one success so significantly as to be a huge deal. You only have a 25% of frenzying to begin with, so it's not like you're going to add *that* many extra chances at Rejected by Death (which is very difficult to get to begin with, no matter how many tries at it you have).
Also, with the Vipers being so easy to kill (0 defense dice), you might be better served pairing Thanos with a sturdier squad or unit that might end up having more turns in the longrun just by surviving.If you look back you'll see, I was talking about a 400 point army that included Thanos.... Not a whole lot of options, but if your strategy is to generate more turns and therefor more Thanos chances at 40 points or less, I'm wondering who else you'd pick.

Rats - in a heartbeat. More mobile, far more surviveable and more difficult to target, too.

~Aldin, who wonders if anyone plays 400 point games anymore

[IAmBatman]

If people DO play 400 point games, I doubt Thanos will see much time in them anyhow. :P
I'd much rather use the guy in 600+ point games, personally.

[Drumline3469]

I would use him in a 400 point game because i'm just risky like that...

[aielman]

as much as I would LOVE this combo

my gut says if they wouldnt ok the rats combo that I loved, there is no way they will allow this combo.

Personally, I thought it was every round when I first read it, but every frenzy??? Thats just crazy powerful. Thats like getting 4 chances for every 3 turns. (in 3 turns at 25% chance at reroll = 3.75 turns, but you have a 25% chance to frenzy again after that, etc = 4 turns for every 3)

so in one 3 turn round:

90%
81%
73% (turn 1 without allowing frezy)
66% = of successful rebirth of Thanos in the first round

second round
60%
54% (turn 2 without allowing frezy)
49%
44% = successful rebirth of Thanos by the end of the second round

third round
40% (turn 3 without allowing frezy)
36%
32%
29% = successful rebirth of Thanos by the end of the third round

The real problem with this is you could, with just a little luck, have 5 or 6 rolls before the end of the first round. THATS the situation I think they will want to avoid.

With this definition, if you had the orcs and tornak - that would give them basically a 54% chance in every round - which is just crazy. And if you had the EOV vipers, you would have very difficult time taking these guys out before thanos came in (granted that becomes like a 500 point army)