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View Full Version : Gold, Mercenaries, Slaves, Thugs, and more....oh my!


jcb231
June 15th, 2006, 07:47 PM
As some of you know, I've been working on a major conversion of D&D miniatures. One of the new mechanics I've been playing with is the concept of gold. I thought it was interesting enough on its own to merit a separate discussion thread.

Please, give me your feedback on this idea.

GOLD would be aquired in any of the following ways...

1. By defeating figures. The player that kills the figure receives one gold token per 25 points of figure cost, rounded up. For example, a Blade Grut costs 10 points (40 for the squad, divided by 4 figures) and would therefore round up to 25 points, giving one gold. Agent Carr would give 4 gold, Jotun 9 gold, Swog Rider 1 gold, Theracus 2 gold, etc.

2. By eliminating a player from the game. When you take someone out, you steal all of their precious saved gold. Spend it while you've got it!

3. By "finding" it on the board. Gold could be scattered around the map, and the first piece that lands on it may pick it up and add it to the player's stash. "Pirates of the Spanish Main" gold works well for this, as it can be flipped over to hide its value.

4. By getting it from a teammate....teammates could trade and share gold as they see fit.

5. By "selling" a glyph. When you land on a glyph, rather than use its power, you could simply choose to sell it. Depending on how you play glyphs, this could be done in a number of ways. You could simply sell it to the bank for a flat rate, without flipping it. You could sell it to the bank for an amount based on what glyph it is....better glyphs give more gold. Or you could auction it to your opponents if you are the type that plays with "pick up the glyph" rules. This could be worked out through private side deals as well.

6. Other side deals.....such as "Here's five gold. Don't attack me next round."

So now you might be saying to yourself "What do I buy with my new gold?"

So far I have these possibilities, and with your help I plan to add more.

1. MERCENARIES: Mercenaries are figures that are not draftable. They are purchased with gold points from a separate drafting area. The Mercs are costed at a 50% markup, rounded up, on the value of gold they would give when killed....so to use the examples from above, if those figures were Mercs it would go down like this: Agent Carr would cost 6 gold, Jotun 14 gold, Swog Rider 2 gold, and Theracus 3 gold.

Mercenaries, like all purchaseables, are bought and placed in your starting area at the end of a round ONLY. Never at the start of a round or during a turn. Once placed, they are treated like any other unit in your army.

At the end of each round, you must pay the salary of all your Mercs. That means paying a fixed price to EACH figure. A figure's salary is the amount it was marked up....so Agent Carr would get paid 2 gold per round, Jotun 5 gold per round, Swog Rider 1 gold per round, and Theracus 1 gold per round. If you can't afford to pay a figure, it deserts and leaves the board immediately. It can then be purchased again later in the game, as usual.

Here's the catch....Mercs do not obtain gold for your stockpile. Ever. They can't pick up gold from the map and they can't get gold by destroying figures. The stingy little buggers keep it all for themselves! What does this mean? It means that if all your regulars are destroyed and you're just left fielding mercs, your days are numbered....with no source of income you are going to have to act very quickly to take out your foes, or your Mercs will walk when the money runs out.

Want another catch? At the end of every round, your opponents have a chance to bid on the services of YOUR Mercs, and thus buy them away from you. So there you are happily paying Roman Legionnaires 1 gold per round, and the jerk across the table offers them 2 gold a round...then another player offers them 3 gold...you can't match that, so they jump ship to the 3 gold immediately. But that poor sap is left having to pay that new elevated salary each and every round or they'll desert him and go back to the market.....fickle little Mercs.

2. SLAVES: Slaves, like Mercs, are purchased at the end of a round and placed in your starting area. The main difference between slaves and mercs is that slaves are a one time cost....once you own them, you never have to pay them a salary, and never need to worry about your opponent hiring them away. Slaves are a bit pricier than Mercs...with a 100% markup, generally.

The main catch to slaves is....if you have, for example, Krug and a bunch of slaves as your only surviving forces, and Krug gets killed, the slaves will immediately jump ship to the opponent that did the killing...so the guy that just beat you gets all your gold and all your slaves....take that! Slaves have no loyalty to you....they're not going to stick around and follow you if you've got nobody left to boss them around. Also, an overseer (any figure you control) must be within 8 spaces of a slave at all times, or else they revolt and leave play.

If your last non-slave figure is killed by something other than an attack, say, by falling into lava, then the slaves simply desert the board....sweet freedom!

Also, if you buy slaves and then decide you want your money back or just don't want them, you can sell them back to the market for half their value. Slaves can collect gold for you and provide no gold to your opponent when killed.

3. THUGS: Thugs are like Mercs in most respects except the following....they are loyal. This means they cannot be bidded away by your opponents. It also means they can collect gold....they can be trusted to hand it over to the boss. Loyal thugs are generally more desireable than Mercs, and are thus more expensive. Does this mean there's no catch to playing Thugs? Of course not....Thugs have their faults just like anything else. If you stop paying Thugs, they leave, just like Mercs....BUT they leave en masse, and cannot be re-hired by you. If you have six thugs and can only afford to pay four, they ALL leave, disgusted but true to each other...a little Thugish family. And they'll never return to your hire, you cheap bastard. Also, while Thugs are generally loyal to you, they do expect certain courtesies....like the money up front. You have to pay them at the START of every round....therefore you can't hope you make some cash during the round to pay them off...they want their money right away.

4. ASSASSINS: Assassins have only one purpose....to kill a single target. You pay a relatively small amount of money for an assassin's services. For that money you get a figure that activates with an extra X marker once per round, with any other marker. The assassin can only attack the figure you hired them to kill, which must be written down on a scrap of paper as proof. If they are used to strike anyone else, you must pay their fee again before rolling to attack. Once you have paid a fee for a target, that target can be attacked as amny times as it takes to kill them. Once all targets are eliminated, the assassin leaves the field, awaiting future hire. Assassins do not collect gold, and a player with only an Assassin left cannot win the game, as this figure is not part of their army....in a game with multiple players, the eliminated player may still move their assassin after they are out of the game....the contract is still in force.

5. BODYGUARDS: Bodyguards bond in much the same way as the classic Anubian Watchdogs custom. When you purchase them they attach to one of your figures and move when he moves. If that figure is killed before the bodyguard, half your money is refunded and the bodyguard leaves play.


As for future purchaseables, I'm open to any ideas. I considered equipment and unit upgrades for those customs that have such things. Maybe healer or revive or other glyphs could be purchased. Maybe spells or special powers? The possiblities are endless.....


Oh, and for those that have asked, the D&D project is still well underway, despite the fact that I have not updated my thread in about 2 weeks....I've just been working out some details on pen and paper. Expect a HUGE update soon. I'm also working on a lead for some good cards, so fingers crossed that will happen here and there.

Jason
June 15th, 2006, 08:11 PM
"a Blade Grut costs 10 points (40 for the squad, divided by 4 figures) and would therefore round up to 25 points, giving one gold."

So killing 1 squad of Orcs (40 points total but 1 gold per orc) gives the same gold as killing 1 Drake (100 points)? Am I understanding this right

Fallen Templar
June 15th, 2006, 08:51 PM
I like this Idea

allskulls
June 15th, 2006, 09:56 PM
I was wondering what to do with all my extra wound markers.

Now to get some gold paint!

InfinityMax
June 15th, 2006, 10:27 PM
That's pretty cool, man. It sounds like you've put a lot of thought into this.

Gambit
June 15th, 2006, 10:36 PM
hmm... i like the idea but its kinda flawed.....

jcb231
June 15th, 2006, 11:03 PM
hmm... i like the idea but its kinda flawed.....

I appreciate all feedback, postitive and negative (especially the negative), but this doesn't really help me at all....can you elaborate? What would you change? Which part do you feel is flawed?

jcb231
June 15th, 2006, 11:15 PM
double post

jcb231
June 15th, 2006, 11:17 PM
"a Blade Grut costs 10 points (40 for the squad, divided by 4 figures) and would therefore round up to 25 points, giving one gold."

So killing 1 squad of Orcs (40 points total but 1 gold per orc) gives the same gold as killing 1 Drake (100 points)? Am I understanding this right

Yes, you are, except Drake gives 5 gold....110 rounded up to the nearest 25 equals five gold.

It doesn't work out evenly I know, but I had to make the cheapies worth at least one gold, and I didn't want to make 1 gold point per 10 draft points....I thought that would get out of hand.

So Blade Gruts give 1 gold, and Drake gives 5....Carr, a 100 pointer, gives 4.

If you actually play with this a couple times, it doesn't seem unbalanced...on paper it looks a little wonky.

Originally I rounded DOWN. That sucked....any figure worth less than 25 points was worthless for gold. So I had to make them all worth at least one in order to have the whole mechanic work at all. Then I decided to round up, to be a little more generous....the game got more exciting when more gold was flowing.

Gambit
June 15th, 2006, 11:39 PM
hmm... i like the idea but its kinda flawed.....

I appreciate all feedback, postitive and negative (especially the negative), but this doesn't really help me at all....can you elaborate? What would you change? Which part do you feel is flawed?

well the biggest problem is the mercs if i was choosing id choose the slaves over the mercs 95% of th time heres a quikly made idae:

make it so you get 1 gold for every 10 point cost, double or triple the base cost of slaves and keep the rest of the prices the same way. this might help but im doing this in a hurry so i might be doing somthing wrong.

jcb231
June 16th, 2006, 12:03 AM
Just slow down, and take the time to explain what you mean. Nobody needs you to rush, friend.

I can't quite get what you mean, but I think the base cost of slaves is going to be high...at least all the slaves I've made so far are high compared to Mercs.

But you won't always have the option of buying slaves....if your opponent buys them before you you'll have to go for mercs. Or if the store runs out of slaves you'll have to go to mercs. And slaves carry a greater danger of mutiny in the endgame. Mercs can still fight when the rest of your army is down (they just leave when the money runs out) whereas slaves are up and outta there immediately.

1 gold for every 10....hmmm...seems like too much gold. That would mean that Jotun would give 22-23 gold depending on how you want to round the numbers. But maybe. I'd rather do the 25 point base I think....seems to balance out better by evening out some larger groups...as in Kelda, Raelin, Concan, Agent Carr, etc all give the same amount of gold.

Any other input?

Jason
June 16th, 2006, 12:09 AM
I'd say make it 1 gold for every 2 orcs/vipers/ killed. Currently giving 1 gold per Orc/Viper would discourage people from playing them since my opponent could make alot more gold killing my horde than I could killing his more expensive units

jcb231
June 16th, 2006, 12:26 AM
True, but doesn't the sheer effectiveness of the horde balance that out?

Hordes are so effective now that the gold system might give a player a slight pause before choosing them.....

And as I said before, if you actually play with the system the way I describe it, you'll find that this aspect of it doesn't seem unbalanced in actual play, as there's nothing you can buy for one gold (remember, 50% markup?). I'm surprised that this is the sticking point so far....I thought that the actual mechanics of the Mercs and Slaves would be more discussed.

earlofwessex
June 16th, 2006, 06:14 AM
I think that this is a workable idea. My initial concern was that it would create an avalance effect - as one guy begins to win, he gets more gold which increases his advantage even more - as one person pulls ahead it gets harder to stop them.

Your mechanics do partially compensate for this - mercs don't collect gold. I'd like to see this played out, keeping an eye out for the avalanche effect.

Thanks for the good idea and the thought you've put into it.

ishbul
June 16th, 2006, 08:15 AM
Cool idea, but if I may:

While placing gold on the board would be cool, a set of drafted vipers would quickly make a b-line for these piles and gobble up all this gold.

So I propose a more hidden-random style of gold on the board. There should be no tokens on the board at all, but rather you could "stumble" across gold randomly like this:

Create a pile of "Pirates..." gold tokens all face down and off the board. After each of your pieces move, roll the D20. If you roll a 19 or 20 you found gold. Take a gold token from the pile and reveal its value.

The number that needs to be rolled can be tweaked as well as the values the gold is given. this would prevent the faster figures from having an overwhelming speed advantage. Though a squad of 4 would have four times the advantage of "finding" gold than a single hero.

Other than that i love your idea.

Basementeer
June 16th, 2006, 12:46 PM
Just a thought...
maybe you could also by weapons or glyphs with money... like for x gold you can buy a glyph (weapon) which u place on a hero's army card, and that hero gets a specific bonus.

if that hero dies 2 things could happen:
1) the "weapon" goes back to the store
2) the "weapon" is placed on the figure who killed the hero's card (if a squad figure or ranged figure kills the hero, the "weapon" goes back to the store)

This would involve, of course making custom weapon and armour glyphs.

just a thought, as I said earlier...

allskulls
June 16th, 2006, 12:50 PM
How does this sound for some anti avalanche balancing...

-You cannot hire a merc before losing a hero/squad.

-Each player chooses one General. When hiring mercs from other Generals the price is raised.

-Merc taverns. Designated spaces on the board you need to be to hire a merc (could be General specific). The fig doing the hiring must be carrying the gold. Place the merc next to the hiring fig.

-No slaves!

jbbnbsmith
June 16th, 2006, 03:25 PM
Very interesting concept. Here are a few initial thoughts (based upon absolutely no experience with the system!)

With the 50% price hike on mercs versus 100% on slave, given that you are rounding up it seems that it would always be better to purchase a slave for the money. For example, a blade grut will cost two gold as a merc, and they will cost me at another two gold just to use them for one round. But for the same four gold pieces I could purchase the marro warriors as slaves. Seems like a no brainer to go with the Marros.

I'm not sure how I personally feel about the idea of hiring/buying warriors in the middle of a battle. I'd have to give it a try. But this sort of system could also be a great way to make the drafting process more interesting. You get so many points to spend on either slaves or mercenaries in addition to your regular army. Or it would be a great way to do campaigns. The battle isn't going well? Retreat your army, grab some gold on the way out and live to fight another day.

What if instead of gold being the treasure, it was something associated with the wellsprings. The principle would work exactly the same, but it would be a bit more consistent with the whole premise of HS and the powers of the wellsprings that allow generals to summon armies, or in this case mercenaries and slaves.

The ability to outbid your opponent and essentially steal their army away is huge, and also very costly. This seems to be something that will work pretty well. For the slaves, perhaps they could be captured other than completely eliminated your opponent's army. What if slaves had to have a non-slave figure within a certain proximity in order to keep them under control. That way, if a slave leader is killed, the slaves associated with that leader are now either free or captured by the enemy, depending upon proximity or some other condition.

The placement of gold (or whatever) and the actual amount of gold (or whatever) is critical to this working well. Too much and things will get sort of crazy. Too little and there's not much incentive to hire mercs.

I like the addition of resource management that your idea adds to the game. I wonder though if it will make a game drag on too long, or create too much of a power swing if one player gets lucky in finding gold.

Anyway, just some random, not too well thought out ramblings that popped into my head. It's a cool idea.

jcb231
June 16th, 2006, 11:03 PM
I think that this is a workable idea. My initial concern was that it would create an avalance effect - as one guy begins to win, he gets more gold which increases his advantage even more - as one person pulls ahead it gets harder to stop them.

Your mechanics do partially compensate for this - mercs don't collect gold. I'd like to see this played out, keeping an eye out for the avalanche effect.

Thanks for the good idea and the thought you've put into it.

Avalanching hasn't happened yet in the games I've tested this in. I think if anything it actually speeds up the games....in current HS, if someone starts to REALLY win badly, the game can still sort of drag while they chase you down and finish you off. With this system, someone who's winning will be able to afford some help to finish you off quicker....but not in an overwhelming, avalanchy sort of way.

jcb231
June 16th, 2006, 11:05 PM
Cool idea, but if I may:

While placing gold on the board would be cool, a set of drafted vipers would quickly make a b-line for these piles and gobble up all this gold.

So I propose a more hidden-random style of gold on the board. There should be no tokens on the board at all, but rather you could "stumble" across gold randomly like this:

Create a pile of "Pirates..." gold tokens all face down and off the board. After each of your pieces move, roll the D20. If you roll a 19 or 20 you found gold. Take a gold token from the pile and reveal its value.

The number that needs to be rolled can be tweaked as well as the values the gold is given. this would prevent the faster figures from having an overwhelming speed advantage. Though a squad of 4 would have four times the advantage of "finding" gold than a single hero.

Other than that i love your idea.

I like this, but I think I will simply eliminate the idea of random gold. I'll keep it in the description of the idea, but in practice I'll use it very sparingly....say only 1 or 2 gold in areas where no one would otherwise go. I've also added an ability to sell glyphs....I'll elaborate soon.

jcb231
June 16th, 2006, 11:05 PM
Just a thought...
maybe you could also by weapons or glyphs with money... like for x gold you can buy a glyph (weapon) which u place on a hero's army card, and that hero gets a specific bonus.

if that hero dies 2 things could happen:
1) the "weapon" goes back to the store
2) the "weapon" is placed on the figure who killed the hero's card (if a squad figure or ranged figure kills the hero, the "weapon" goes back to the store)

This would involve, of course making custom weapon and armour glyphs.

just a thought, as I said earlier...

Right on, but as you say, lots of customs would be needed....it's a system that could be adapted for the needs of those who have made such customs.

jcb231
June 16th, 2006, 11:08 PM
How does this sound for some anti avalanche balancing...

-You cannot hire a merc before losing a hero/squad.

-Each player chooses one General. When hiring mercs from other Generals the price is raised.

-Merc taverns. Designated spaces on the board you need to be to hire a merc (could be General specific). The fig doing the hiring must be carrying the gold. Place the merc next to the hiring fig.

-No slaves!

Hmmm....I don't think avalanching is a huge problem, and I think your steps, while interesting, are a bit extreme. The first one seems the most workable, but I'm just not sure its needed. I need more convincing.

I won't use the general one, as I don't want to force my games to use only one general per player.

Merc taverns would be the most contested spots in history....maybe for a campaign or special scenario but I don't think as a general rule.

No slaves? I just made a major tweak to them. They're much better now I think. Slaves!

jcb231
June 16th, 2006, 11:15 PM
Very interesting concept. Here are a few initial thoughts (based upon absolutely no experience with the system!)


Always happy for your input!


With the 50% price hike on mercs versus 100% on slave, given that you are rounding up it seems that it would always be better to purchase a slave for the money. For example, a blade grut will cost two gold as a merc, and they will cost me at another two gold just to use them for one round. But for the same four gold pieces I could purchase the marro warriors as slaves. Seems like a no brainer to go with the Marros.


I have made a change I think you'll like. Check it out.


What if instead of gold being the treasure, it was something associated with the wellsprings. The principle would work exactly the same, but it would be a bit more consistent with the whole premise of HS and the powers of the wellsprings that allow generals to summon armies, or in this case mercenaries and slaves.


Hmm...I like gold. If this is just a flavor thing you can call it whatever you like, but I'll stick with gold. If I were a merc, I'd want gold. :-P


The ability to outbid your opponent and essentially steal their army away is huge, and also very costly. This seems to be something that will work pretty well. For the slaves, perhaps they could be captured other than completely eliminated your opponent's army. What if slaves had to have a non-slave figure within a certain proximity in order to keep them under control. That way, if a slave leader is killed, the slaves associated with that leader are now either free or captured by the enemy, depending upon proximity or some other condition.


What if I (no lie) had a very similar idea just moments before deciding to come over to the boards and post it? Lol....overseers it is! I've made it so that slaves need to be in sight of a friendly figure, but kept that they can only be captured when you totally eliminate your foe. I think in the heat of battle we'll say they just slip away if your opponent is still fighting elsewhere on the map.


The placement of gold (or whatever) and the actual amount of gold (or whatever) is critical to this working well. Too much and things will get sort of crazy. Too little and there's not much incentive to hire mercs.


True. One of the reasons why I don't want to do 1 gold per 10 points....it could get overwhelming and sort of crazy, as you say.


I like the addition of resource management that your idea adds to the game. I wonder though if it will make a game drag on too long, or create too much of a power swing if one player gets lucky in finding gold.


I've always thought a super-advanced version of HS could be made that uses some resource management. This was my attempt to create something very simple that I think fits in the HS world to a certain extent...not too complex.

We'll downplay the "random finding of gold" idea....I recommend that people hide very little random gold on a map.

jcb231
June 20th, 2006, 11:44 AM
So I added some Thugs, assassins, and bodyguards.....any other input?

Fuzzie Fuzz
February 8th, 2007, 07:04 PM
Sorry to resurect a dead thread, but I think this is a great idea. Now, to add this to my list of "new ways to play HS that I will try when I get the time."