Rules for kids

[Xotli]

Hi folks! Long time listener, first time caller.

So I picked up Heroscape in March of 05, mainly thinking that it would be a nifty pick-up game between roleplaying games (I play D&D and other RPGs with a bunch of guys, and sometimes we need a break if nobody's ready with their game). But that never really materialized, so I've just been playing with my kid (now 7). We go through phases--play constantly for a while, put it away for months, break it back out again and go buy some more figures, etc.

Since we've currently been having a Heroscape resurgence, I thought for my first post I'd talk about the rules I use with my son. And since I know that many of you guys play with your kids too, I figured you might have some tips.

You know, when I first opened up HS, I thought the whole basic game/master game concept was a cool idea. Except that the basic game kinda sucks. I mean, first off, you have no special powers in the basic game. And, let's face it--special powers are the coolest part of HS. Now, I can understand (and even applaud) the desire to make things simpler for younger kids. But these are kids raised on Pokemon and Yu-gi-oh ... they understand special powers just fine. Even at 6, my son had no troubles grasping any of the powers.

So we've been playing with the master rules to see what we could simplify without going all the way to basic rules, which we both think suck. Generally, we play with huge armies (800 pts and up), nearly always to the death (regardless of how long it takes), and we often stretch it out over the course of weeks (we just play till he gets bored then we take a break). Here's some of the stuff we've experimented with:

*) Height advantage: I think we played one game without this, but it obviously didn't work well. And leaving it out doesn't really simplify enough to help.

*) Glyphs: We never play with glyphs. Well, not like they're supposed to be played anyway. We did have one game where he decided that the glyphs would represent artifacts and assigned them all powers based on the magic items from the cartoon Shaolin Showdown, but I don't count that. :D

*) Drafting: We mostly draft armies normally. We use a slight variation that I may talk about in another thread sometime, but it's mostly normal. We don't ever use premade armies.

*) Order markers: We don't use this at all. In fact, we only recently started doing rounds. Without order markers, I wouldn't even bother except that I thought we ought to start doing the lava rules right (we originally were just rolling for damage after every turn). As a side-effect of not using order markers, of course we never use Dund either.

*) Initiative: We originally didn't use this either. I just let him go first all the time. Now that we've started doing actual rounds, we've started doing initiative too.

*) Generals: We've never paid any attention to those at all. We just mix and match like crazy. I don't think we actually have any units that have powers based on generals, but if we did we'd probably ignore them (e.g. just use "warlord bonding" instead of "Einar warlord bonding").

I think those are the only things we do (or have done) differently; we use all the terrain rules (we have VW but not RTTFF or TT yet), and all the special powers as written (except Dund, who, as I say, we just don't use). The only other things I can think of are the "extreme height" rules, and we've never done those just because I've never built a map with any mountains high enough for it to come up.

What sorts of rules do you guys use with your kids?

[Mr. Underhill]

Hi folks! Long time listener, first time caller. Hehehe, that's funny. Reminds me of the Mr. Obvious segment I've heard on the Bob & Tom Show. :lol:

No need to welcome you to the forum if you've been a long time listener/lurker. Still, you raise some good points in this posting. Have you read the other thread of a similar nature? You can find it here (http://heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=496&highlight=).

Admin may consider merging to keep this posting within the theme.

Anyway Xotli, I recommend checking out the other thread - there's quite a few variations on the game theme specifically with kids in mind discussed.


Cheers, mate.


Mr. Underhill

[skyknight]

Welcome to the boards xotli, hope to see you around,

Mr Underhill, you get BOB and Tom way down there.

Marsupials scare me........

[Mr. Underhill]

Mr Underhill, you get BOB and Tom way down there.
Marsupials scare me........

I've got a collection of B&T mp3s. I also frequently scan radio stations for web broadcasts too.

Marsupials rock!

What's a thylacine?


Mr. Underhill

[ultradoug]

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f348/coolmondoug/druid.jpg

[Xotli]

Have you read the other thread of a similar nature? You can find it here (http://heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=496&highlight=).

Admin may consider merging to keep this posting within the theme.

Well, yeah, I read that thread. And while it does sort of touch on this topic, it was really a thread that started out as a battle report and devolved into a, um ... discussion ... about parenting. I was hoping a separate thread might be more useful. :)

I'm good! Please just try me once! I can attack you know!

Heh. Mayhap, but, as I say, for us it's all about the specials. Any figure with no specials just isn't cool as far as we're concerned. When Hasbro releases that dragon with 12 life, 8 attack, and 10 defense, we won't even buy him. :wink:

[Xotli]

No bites on this topic, eh? Ah well, I'll have to think of some other exciting topic to start.

Just to add something vaguely on-(my own)-topic, I have to say that IMHO what makes this game work well for younger kids is the amount of luck. In that respect, it's sort of like poker: if you're very good, you're going to win more than you will lose, but you will lose some. (Different from, say, chess, where if you're very good you just win all the time.) This allows kids to have really successful moments even when their strategy isn't sophisticated, which encourages them.

Example: In our current game, which is a monster 1000 or 1100 or maybe even more (frankly I lost track somewhere during the draft) point battle, my son's initial foray was to send in Charos to utterly devastate my forces. The evil green dragon took out all my monks, all my EOV, and 2 of the KMA. At that point, I sent in Mimring to waste him. Trying to prepare him for the inevitable disappointment of Charos' destruction, I pointed out that Mimring was faster than Charos and would catch him eventually, Mimring was fresh while Charos was heavily damaged, and Mimring could stand back and breathe fire and thus be immune to Charos' deadly counterstrike. "Kid," I says, "I think you have to face facts: Charos is going to die. But it's not tragic or anything; he's definitely pulled his weight and taken out his fair share of my army. Now, if you want my advice, I say forget running and just dash in there in attack Mimring. As long as you're going to die anyway, you may as well do as much damage as you can on the way out." He took it well, and took my advice.

So Charos met Mimring on flat ground with no one around. 5 attack dice were rolled. I stare in disbelief at 5 skulls. "Uh ... wow," I say. "You're really going to do some damage to ol' Mimring here before the end, eh?" I roll my 3 defense dice. All blanks.

That stupid green dragon is still rampaging around the board killing my dudes ...

[K/H_Addict]

yeah...i get the feeling of "5 skulls? HOW AM I GOING TO BLOCK THAT!?" at least once every game i play. I never (well, rarely) roll blanks on defense though. Which reminds me: I was playing a game. My finn was dominating my opponents army. HE decided to use a dumutef Guard (comes w/ RttFF) on road (attack bonus; 5 attack total.) He rolls his dice. I see 5. i think "Ouch..." and just drop my dice in the tower, and reach for my figure, thinking he had met his demise. Right before i remove him from the field, i notice that i too, had rolled 5 shields out of 5 dice. The feeling of excitement is inexplicable!

yeah..my opponent forfeited after that. IDK why; he still had a swarm of Soulborgs....

[0rbital]

Played my first game with my 10 year son last night. 1 master set (my bad ebay buy that got me a MS with no figures in it and missing some water), 1 RTFF, and the wave 1 packs plus a minutemen and wolves pack. We barely had enough guys for 400 pts a piece. Built the map that comes in the RTFF but no glyphs. I read through the master rules and he picked them up quick. Sometimes we both forgot to use special powers in effect (movement bonuses for the romans and vipers mainly). He made some good strategic moves that took my heroes out early. The Roman archers with their special combined attack that I had hanging back ended up taking the cake though.

Now that I know he's going to be into it I'm off to get another MS today so I can get the guys. Hopefully I'll find an old 1st edition for the sparkly water but I doubt it.

[RichardD]

I put on a demo game about 6 weeks ago - open to the public, young and old, I wanted to use the full Master Rules (cos the basic rules are bland, bland, bland) but didn't want too many complications.

So, we dropped the glyphs, the double-space figures, and drafting (I used a handful of pre-constructed 400-point armies from two Master Sets). If I was doing it again, I'd be slightly tempted to ditch the +2 height advantage rules simply because they're a bit fiddly and don't crop up very often at all, and maybe simplify falling too.

It worked well. There's a copy of the ruleset we drafted up and handed out to players in the "Heroscape Additions" section here. Beginners weren't overwhelmed by special rules and drafting worries, but still got to see some pretty neat special powers. The map we used (a four Master Set "King of the Mountain" setup) didn't really suit the double space figures, so when we tried it with Chompy & Mimring, neither really worked very well.

[quixotequest]

I also play with my son. He's almost 10 now but was 8 when we first bought the game; he picked up on the "advanced" game right away. My 3 nephews ages 7-13 all enjoy, too.

Sometimes they miss a thing or two about the cards--usually something covered in the FAQ were they to read the FAQ. We generally play predrafted armies at smaller pt builds: 300 or 400. My son is now getting old enough that we play multi-day games at 1000pt or more builds.

I've found the kids love the glyphs although they can really swing the game is unbalanced directions. And they generally need oversight in the map construction.

While all the powers can be a little confusing for younger kids at times there is where the fun lies. They did the unique little powers/abilities that set figs apart from another. You take that away with the basic game and it just isn't very fun. We keep the gameplay as light and fun with a "no takebacks" rule. Sometimes they're gonna "snooze and lose" by forgetting some bonus or power but if they game stays fun so far all have been good sports. They learn quicker that way.

With the youngest kids sometimes I have to coach them in a little strategy so I end up playing against myself. But its all good. When I went to the TRU Heroscape promo last October the store didn't know anything about the game. I had brought all my terrain. My son and I set up a bigger map and we had a blast introducing kids to miniatures gaming. We sold a lot of product for that TRU that day.

[Revdyer]

When I play with my eleven year old grandson we modify the rules thus:
(1) He gets to pick six squad or hero cards, I get an army 50 points less strong than his army.
(2) We ignore height difference for ranged attacks (not for melee).

That's about it. Otherwise we use the Master Game rules and enjoy the battle(s) of all time.

[Xotli]

I read through the master rules and he picked them up quick.

Yeah, same here. I think the master rules need very little adjustment to be usable for kids.

Now that I know he's going to be into it I'm off to get another MS today so I can get the guys. Hopefully I'll find an old 1st edition for the sparkly water but I doubt it.

Don't know if this is too late, but I noticed when poking around the House Mouse site that she has 1st edition sets. Plus you could even get the figures separately (altho you probably want the extra terrain as well).

So, we dropped the glyphs, the double-space figures, and drafting ...

I hadn't thought of ditching double-space figures. It certainly would help simplify things (I nearly always just move my son's for him), but ... the dragons! :)

If I was doing it again, I'd be slightly tempted to ditch the +2 height advantage rules simply because they're a bit fiddly and don't crop up very often at all, and maybe simplify falling too.

Yeah, exactly. I'd probably use those rules if they ever came up, but they haven't, so I haven't gone into it.

There's a copy of the ruleset we drafted up and handed out to players in the "Heroscape Additions" section here.

I think I glanced at that earlier, but I hadn't realized you had simplified the rules (I thought you were just working on simplifying the wording). I'll go back and look again.

My son is now getting old enough that we play multi-day games at 1000pt or more builds.

Yeah, that's the only kind mine wants to play. Not sure why that appeals to him so much.

I've found the kids love the glyphs although they can really swing the game is unbalanced directions. And they generally need oversight in the map construction.

Well, maybe I'll see if I can convince my son to try the glyphs. As for map construction ... generally he chooses a map then goes and plays video games until I'm done putting it together. :D

They did the unique little powers/abilities that set figs apart from another. You take that away with the basic game and it just isn't very fun.

Yes, exactly.

With the youngest kids sometimes I have to coach them in a little strategy so I end up playing against myself.

Yeah, that's the way I do it too. I won't ever let him win, but I often point out to him what I would do in his shoes. And, like I say, the luck factor comes to his rescue often enough. Last game I wiped him out except for DW9K, who promptly climbed to the highest point on the map and wasted the last Izumi samurai, Brunak, NGS, Finn (killed last so his spirit was useless), and 2 or 3 others to boot. I never attempted to throw that game (in fact, towards the end there I was pretty desperately trying to waste him); he just got some lucky rolls.

(1) He gets to pick six squad or hero cards, I get an army 50 points less strong than his army.
(2) We ignore height difference for ranged attacks (not for melee).

Interesting draft philosophy; I'll have to post something about how we do it. As for the height thing ... can I ask why do you do it that way? It would seem like since you're doing it for melee, ignoring it for ranged attacks doesn't necessarily simplify things. So what's the advantage there?

Thanx all for the comments! I notice that no one said anything about order markers ... do you all play the standard order markers rules with your kids? That's the one thing that I absolutely can't convince my son to try. And I'm pretty sure playing without them changes the way you play the game fairly radically (obviously I can't say for sure, since I've never actually played with them, but I'm pretty sure).

[0rbital]

Now that I know he's going to be into it I'm off to get another MS today so I can get the guys. Hopefully I'll find an old 1st edition for the sparkly water but I doubt it.


Don't know if this is too late, but I noticed when poking around the House Mouse site that she has 1st edition sets. Plus you could even get the figures separately (altho you probably want the extra terrain as well).

I found a MS set at Walmart on top of the aisle that had the Elite Onyx Vipers promos in it and it was priced at $34 instead of $40 that non-promotional sets were. Couldn't pass that up. Now I think while the 2 MS and 1 RTFF sets I have now make a good sized battlefield it's not enough. Another MS or two would be nice hehe. Then everything else I don't have.

Thanx all for the comments! I notice that no one said anything about order markers ... do you all play the standard order markers rules with your kids? That's the one thing that I absolutely can't convince my son to try. And I'm pretty sure playing without them changes the way you play the game fairly radically (obviously I can't say for sure, since I've never actually played with them, but I'm pretty sure).

We played with them. He didn't have any trouble with it. Well if you played without them you could change your mind on who you were going to play as a reaction to what the other player played so it would alter the game's strategy quite a bit compared to using the markers. I kept track of the rounds too but I doubt I'll bother next time.

[D-Dyzzle]

Generally, we play with huge armies (800 pts and up), nearly always to the death (regardless of how long it takes)


:banana: dude i wish i could battle you. i love huge armies. and i just moved and my only friend here who plays heroscape is a really sore loser and quits all the time (earleir today he quit after i destroyed one figure because we forgot about his def +2 glyph, either way i rolled three, his def was 1, he rolled a skull, even with two more dice the fig was toast. :screwy:)

[Agent Minivann]

My son was 8 when I got my first MS (he's 9 now). The only thing we don't pay attention to is generals. We did some things wrong along the way, but we play by the rules as we know them. My son saved up enough money to buy his own MS, and he always has one of the official maps built in his room (unless he's playing in the middle of the night and we have to confiscate the stuff for a few days). I think that the time he spent with Yu Gi Oh conditioned him really well for playing the master game. He looked at the basic game for a while recently until he saw there were no specials. He quickly turned the cards over to the right side.

I am curious about the Shaolin Showdown thing. We watch that show too.

[Basementeer]

Xotli, my brother and I used to play the way you did. Round markers make the game more fair, they would prevent Charos from killing all your "dudes"...(lol :lol: )...kindof. When we first played with all the rules it was pretty dang sweet. Now we always play with them. I even taught my other, younger, 7 year-old brother (i have 2 of 'em) to play, and he did pretty well.

[Doc_Savage]

Played my first game with my 10 year son last night. 1 master set (my bad ebay buy that got me a MS with no figures in it and missing some water)

If you go to the Heroscape.com and go to the "customer service" menu at the homepage and then go to the heroscape section of the replacement parts, you can get a Master set of figures for $20 including shipping. They won't have cards, but there are master set cards in the download section...

I started playing when my son was 6. Played the basic game once or twice and he kept wondering why the dragons couldn't fly.... The specials are what make the characters cool for the kids.

My kids also play Magic with me, so I knew they could handle 'scape.

We have never gotten a +2 height bonus, I guess I need more sets to build taller maps...

[Xotli]

I found a MS set at Walmart on top of the aisle that had the Elite Onyx Vipers promos in it and it was priced at $34 instead of $40 that non-promotional sets were. Couldn't pass that up.

No doubt; nice score. I managed to find an EOV set as well (only had to check 4 WalMarts), but it was full price. I hadn't thought I'd buy a second MS, but I wanted to pick up the EOV, and I realized that for the prices they go for on ebay (plus shipping), I could get a whole MS for just a bit more, if I could find one. And I did.

Now I think while the 2 MS and 1 RTFF sets I have now make a good sized battlefield it's not enough. Another MS or two would be nice hehe. Then everything else I don't have.

Yeah, I hear ya. You get the bug. Me, I'm not a terrain junkie so much ... I never liked Legos or Lincoln Logs or any of that stuff. I'm more concerned with finding all the figures I don't have.

I notice that no one said anything about order markers ... do you all play the standard order markers rules with your kids? ...

We played with them. He didn't have any trouble with it. Well if you played without them you could change your mind on who you were going to play as a reaction to what the other player played so it would alter the game's strategy quite a bit compared to using the markers.

Yeah, exactly. A lot of our skirmishes are "to the death" for that very reason.

dude i wish i could battle you. i love huge armies. ...

Well, remember that so far my only opponent has been a seven-year-old. I doubt I'd be much of a challenge. :D

... and i just moved and my only friend here who plays heroscape is a really sore loser and quits all the time ...

I get that all the time too (but then, as I say, my opponent is seven ...). Basically whenever he says he quits, I just say "okay" and leave the board as is and the next day or so he forgets he wanted to quit and we just pick up where we left off. :thumbsup:

My son was 8 when I got my first MS (he's 9 now). The only thing we don't pay attention to is generals.

Yeah, I haven't been that impressed with the whole backstory thing. For me, one of the nice things about Heroscape--especially as a break from roleplaying--is not having to bother coming up with any sort of logical reasons for things. Just give me the robot, the samurai, and the elf and let's go to town.

I think that the time he spent with Yu Gi Oh conditioned him really well for playing the master game.

Exactly.

I am curious about the Shaolin Showdown thing. We watch that show too.

Oh, it was very complicated We had I think 4 glyphs, and each one was a particular shen gong wu (spelling?). He would explain in detail how a particular one worked in the cartoon and then we'd make up rules for it. Like one was a storm-maker, similar to the real glyph that stops all flyers; this stopped flying for 3 rounds plus gave a bonus to the Vipers movement (which in retrospect wasn't that bright, considering they all have insane movements to start with, but it was mainly a balance thing because he happened to have all the flyers--and the vipers--on his side, so otherwise the thing would only hurt him). Another one was the eye of something or other and it let you see through walls, so that rule was that you could shoot through walls if you had that one (basically you could ignore LOS). I forget what the other two were. When you landed on one, you "picked it up" and carried it around with you. The powers only applied to that one figure and were either active all the time (like ignoring LOS), or you had to activate it by giving up your attack for that turn and then it only lasted for a short while (like the storm one). I think on that game we spent more time working out the shen gong wu rules than actually playing. :D

Round markers make the game more fair, they would prevent Charos from killing all your "dudes"...(lol Laughing )...kindof.

Oh, you're definitely right about that. The lack of order markers absolutely contributed to Charos kickin' my ass. Thus my belief that we should play with them. And perhaps thus his reluctance. :roll:

I started playing when my son was 6. Played the basic game once or twice and he kept wondering why the dragons couldn't fly.... The specials are what make the characters cool for the kids.

Absolutely. Thus my interest in seeing how others had simplified the rules. But I guess the general concensus is they just don't. The full on master rules are simple enough.

My kids also play Magic with me, so I knew they could handle 'scape.

Yeah, my kid tried Magic for a bit, but mainly he's played Yu-Gi-Oh, Duel Masters, and some Harry Potter (which is basically Magic Lite). Same principles tho.

We have never gotten a +2 height bonus, I guess I need more sets to build taller maps...

Heh, right. The board we're currently on may have enough height for that, but I dunno if I would stress it. I probably would if he got Syvarris up there (he actually has Syvarris this time; I suppose the fact that I drafted him the past six games or so was finally making an impression on him), but not if I got ... well, whoever I have left that can shoot. I think he might have offed all my ranged attackers. No, wait, Shotgun Sullivan. Still got him.

[Agent Minivann]

Thanks Xotli, I'll have to give it a try. I can't think of many of the wu's, but I'm sure the kids will watch it this Saturday.

[Cavalier]

Holy thread resurection Batman! :D

Just thought I'd post in this one as well. My oldest boy is 7 (8 in December). He and I have been playing HS together for a couple of months now (hardest part is finding a time when his youger brothers don't want to play as well, they are4 and 6 and they just like to use the peices as action figures :P ).

As far as modifications, about the only thing we do is leave out the 'x' marker...just to simplify it a bit. He too hated the basic rules (kept wanting to flip the cards over so he could use the cool stuff).

I agree with others that sometimes it feels like I'm fighting against myself as I advise him on strategy, but soon I think he will be able to absolutely go it on his own.

Last night we had a game which came down to my 3 remaining AE and his Ne-Gok-Sa. He had been trying to throw a mind shackle all night long but never hit it. NGS was down to one life and I was certain I had him. Rather than attack tha AE he had moved adjacent to, he tried another shackle...20, he hit the 20. He laughed the rest of the night about shackling my last 3 figs :lol:

great times

[theats]

Hi folks! Long time listener, first time caller. Hehehe, that's funny. Reminds me of the Mr. Obvious segment I've heard on the Bob & Tom Show. :lol:

No need to welcome you to the forum if you've been a long time listener/lurker. Still, you raise some good points in this posting. Have you read the other thread of a similar nature? You can find it here (http://heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=496&highlight=).

Admin may consider merging to keep this posting within the theme.

Anyway Xotli, I recommend checking out the other thread - there's quite a few variations on the game theme specifically with kids in mind discussed.woah, how do you here the bob and tom show in australia, it is broadcast in charolott nc, 45 minutes away from me, thatis litteraly on the other side of the world.


Cheers, mate.


Mr. Underhill

[Fuzzie Fuzz]

Well, I AM a kid (well, preteen) and I play with my 8 year old sister a lot. I mostly use the advanced game only without order markers.


To elaborate:

I don't use order markers, and I only use initiative at the very beginning of the game. (Which renders the glyph pointless.)

I use the glyphs, most of the master game movement rules, and special powers.

I use the master side of the card. (The basic game is boring!)

I say that figures don't take falling damage, and can move up as much elevation as they need (while still staying within their alloted movement)

We ignore generals, not that we have any figures in which this matters...

I think that's about it, plus the fact that I've never actually read the entire rule book... (My friend, who had already been playing for a while, got me started, I learned the rules from him, then got HS, so never read the rule book.)

[theats]

Well, I AM a kid (well, preteen) and I play with my 8 year old sister a lot. I mostly use the advanced game only without order markers.


To elaborate:

. (Which renders the glyph pointless.)


.i do the same, but the glyph adds 8 to any die roll for me. everyone always goes for that one...

[Kepler]

We got HS when my son had just turned 4 (he's now 5). So I was looking for a lower level of simplicity than most here.

We started off with the basic game and didn't use any range and didn't use the squad concept. Eventually we added range. Now we have started using the master side of the card without using the special abilities (basically just adding in multiple life). We mostly do just hero-only battles, so we still aren't using squads. Also, we are still using the basic game alternating activations rule instead of turn markers.

I think next I will start introducing the special powers. Although I am not sure when.