Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, Leader of Al Qaeda in Iraq: Killed

[skyknight]

You know it will be a good day when you wake up and find out that Iraq's #1 terrorist has been smoked. goodbye Al-zarqawi, somehow I feel you are going to be a bit surprised when your 100 virgins don't show up, I think you should probably enjoy your new accomodations, not much different than Iraq. And yes it is true, two days after his death, Zarqawi has quit smokin!!

[ultradoug]

cool can we call the troups home now/

[Buddy Lee]

Obviously this is HUGE news. I for one am happy that such a resounding threat to human life has been eliminated. I believe in the long run it will improve the United States efforts in Irag. But, I do have some questions:


1 ) Now that such a focal point of our efforts in Irag has been eliminated can we / should we now shift more effort into finding Osama bin laden? And will that make any difference?

2 ) Will the Iragi people recognize the advantages that this death provides them? Can they now more easily find the resolve to hold those attacking civilian targets and disrupting their society accountable now that the attackers have lost such a figurehead?

3 ) Given the fact that his tactics have reportedly marginalized even his fanatical cohorts is this the best possible outcome?

4 ) Will this help or hurt our efforts in Irag given that he may now be a martyr?

5 ) What will be the short term results in Irag? What will be the long term results in Irag?

7 ) Will this death make it easier for the United States to withdraw from Irag or harder? If so, is it easier politically (huge victory) or militarily (unknown reaction from the insurgents)?

8 ) Should the United States withdraw now?

9 ) What is the next step for the United States and Iragi government now in Irag, and how do they accomplish that?

10 ) Is anyone really saddened by this death (other than his followers and like minded "associates")?

Buddy Lee

P.S. This thread just SCREAMS out for MrZuck. If he doesn't reply I gotta believe he ain't comin' back.

Zuck,

Where are ya bud?

P.S.S. Hey!! I started this thread. Why is mine the third post? D@mmit. I want my order back. :)

[Venom]

sorry, i had to add this here. wonder if it happened something like this:lol:

http://www.dumpalink.com/media/1112095786/Wassup_Jihad_style.

[ultradoug]

i dont even know who this guy is

[skyknight]

Someone changed the title of my thread, anyways it is a great thing Zarqawi is dead, will it make a difference in the end, I do not know, do our boys deserve this kinda victory after the beating they take here at home, yes they do. I for one say if nothing else our boys deserve this win, you cannot discount what this will do for our troops morale. I say good riddance, as far as the Iraqi people recognizing the fact that his death is a good thing, many will, he has murderd more Iraqi's than can be easily counted, and for those who don't well Que serra serra. I see a thousand US soldiers ghosts rising up in celebration of the death of the most ruthless terrorist the sands of Iraq have ever seen. Rot in Hell zarqawi!

[ultradoug]

I'm guesing he is some leader ...deal?

[Buddy Lee]

Someone changed the title of my thread. . .

I got no problem with merging threads, if that is what happened. It just seems odd that I am listed as the original poster and the title is mine with your's being the first post.

Anyways. Yes I am very happy that he is dead as well. I do think that it is a great victory. I will be interested in seeing the Democratic / Liberal reaction. Who knows I might be surprised. Already I have read a story that minimalized this accomplishment, or at the very least emphasized the potential negatives as opposed to expressing the benefits.

Buddy Lee

[Buddy Lee]

I'm guesing he is some leader ...deal?

Just for you UD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarqawi

Buddy Lee

[skyknight]

I saw one as well Buddy, its makes me sad that for just one day as a nation we can not rise up in a unified voice to rejoice in a victory like this. Tommorow let the bickering begin again, but today should be a day that we show our enemies we are one country. This will not happen because to do this will show that the President's campaign finally went right for a while and with the 2006 senatorial races coming noone is going to give any credit for this. I truly dislike politicians! I have never been as proud of my country as I was on Sept 12 2001. I wonder if in our lifetimes we will ever see it again.

[Grungebob]

When I merge them it organizes them in chronological order. Since you were not the first person to make a thread on this subject, your post comes in a couple of posts down. But I like the title better so I chose that title during the merge. I guess I will make a new title for it.

[skyknight]

I knew it was you GB :lol: Your the only admin up with me at this time of the mornin!

[Buddy Lee]

When I merge them it organizes them in chronological order. Since you were not the first person to make a thread on this subject, your post comes in a couple of posts down. But I like the title better so I chose that title during the merge. I guess I will make a new title for it.

Ha. Ha.

I have a better title.

I win.

Wait. Since GB changed it. . .

Aw, nuts.

Buddy Lee

[Scott]

Great day for America and, more importantly, for the citizens of Iraq. Buddy Lee (love that jpeg!) had some great questions which I will try to answer in detail. Just so you know my background, I am an Air Force Academy graduate who served for 10 years in Space Command and current work for a major military contractor. So I don't have the background in direct operations that some on this list do. But I do follow the news and politics closely, and most of my information comes from there. So, I am by no means an expert, but I feel I'm well informed (and I'm watching Fox News with briefings by generals as I type this).


1 ) Now that such a focal point of our efforts in Irag has been eliminated can we / should we now shift more effort into finding Osama bin laden? And will that make any difference?


There is a unit in Special Operations Command that is in charge of hunting both these guys down. They have claimed that they aren't diverting any resources from Afganistan to Iraq and that they can fully do both jobs at once. So, according to them it shouldn't make a difference in finding Bin Laden, but I hope it helps.

One thing that might help a lot is any documents they find at the site where they smoked Zarqawi. There could be a lot of contact information for Al Queda in other areas and that could lead to new captures in Iraq and Afganistan.


2 ) Will the Iragi people recognize the advantages that this death provides them? Can they now more easily find the resolve to hold those attacking civilian targets and disrupting their society accountable now that the attackers have lost such a figurehead?


From what I've read this morning, it was the Iraqis that told us where Zarqawi was. The neighborhood he was killed in has been terrorized by him for weeks now. He's cut off Shiites heads and put them in vegetable crates and shot about 20 people in the street, so they were pretty pissed at him.


3 ) Given the fact that his tactics have reportedly marginalized even his fanatical cohorts is this the best possible outcome?


Well, time will tell, but I think a dead psycho is better than a live one. I don't think his successors will have more credibility just because he's dead.


4 ) Will this help or hurt our efforts in Irag given that he may now be a martyr?


While the terrorists are trying to claim he is a martyr now, that really doesn't meet their own standards. Usually they claim martyrdom for those who die while killing their enemies (or women and children, it's all the same to them). Getting killed by the enemy while not killing anyone doesn't really cut it.


5 ) What will be the short term results in Irag? What will be the long term results in Irag?


Short term: Hopefully intel recovered at the site and the confusion resultant from losing their leader, and perhaps his entire staff, could result in a lot of new arrests and dead Al Queda. Also, big morale boost for our troops and Iraq's.

Long term: Hard to predict, but since this operation was a result of intel provided by pissed off Iraqis, hopefully this will be seen as an opportunity to end Shiite/Sunni hostilities and that would have a big positive benefit.


7 ) Will this death make it easier for the United States to withdraw from Irag or harder? If so, is it easier politically (huge victory) or militarily (unknown reaction from the insurgents)?


I think we will withdraw from Iraq at about the same speed in which we withdrew from Germany and Japan. Oh wait a minute, we're still in Germany and Japan!

I don't think withdraw is a goal of any sort. Long term peace and stability is the goal. When that is achieved, we and the Iraq government can decide if a US presence in Iraq is strategically and poilitcally desirable (same is true in Afganistan). This is a very long term war, more like the Cold War than WWII.


9 ) What is the next step for the United States and Iragi government now in Irag, and how do they accomplish that?


I don't think this leads to a "next step", at least not right away. If anything, this success is proof that we are making far more progress than the liberal media will show and that the Iraqi people are headed in the right direction.

I think it's a sign post more than a turning point. The turning point was the successful series of elections and the forming of a constitutional government in Iraq.


10 ) Is anyone really saddened by this death (other than his followers and like minded "associates")?


Howard Dean? Cindy Sheehan? If you are opposed to the war, then I think your position is considerably weakened today. But don't fret too much Dems, Hillary is celebrating today because she has been on the right side in this war from the start. She's in a good position for '08 - seriously.

That's my take.

Scott

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

You know it will be a good day when you wake up and find out that Iraq's #1 terrorist has been smoked. goodbye Al-zarqawi, somehow I feel you are going to be a bit surprised when your 100 virgins don't show up, I think you should probably enjoy your new accomodations, not much different than Iraq. And yes it is true, two days after his death, Zarqawi has quit smokin!!

:toast:

our boys deserve this kinda victory after the beating they take here at home, yes they do. I for one say if nothing else our boys deserve this win, you cannot discount what this will do for our troops morale. I say good riddance, as far as the Iraqi people recognizing the fact that his death is a good thing, many will, he has murderd more Iraqi's than can be easily counted, and for those who don't well Que serra serra. I see a thousand US soldiers ghosts rising up in celebration of the death of the most ruthless terrorist the sands of Iraq have ever seen. Rot in Hell zarqawi!

and again,
:drunk:

[Grungebob]

I think that accross all party lines everyone recognizes Al-Zarqawi as a very dangerous man. Al-Quida even urged him to ease up on the senseless killings!! That's how bad he was. BUT he was also one of the most influential figureheads of the Shiite extremists faction and I can see how some my feel his martyrdom may inhibit stability between Sunnis and Shiites.

[skyknight]

you may be right Grunge but I gotta tell you, today I had a British couple in the winery, I generally do not talk politics on the counter but they brought it up, soon after a German couple walked in and joined the conversation, by the end of it we all drank a glass of wine and toasted the US military's efforts, kinda nice to see others than just Americans recognizing the evil that has been destroyed.

[daevablacc]

:toast: :headbang: :johnwoo2:

Yea!!!!

[Bannister]

:toast: :headbang: :johnwoo2:

Yea!!!!

I think in reality that went like this.

:johnwoo2: :headbang: :toast:

:D

Bannister

[justncaseur1-2]

I will be interested in seeing the Democratic / Liberal reaction. Who knows I might be surprised.
Buddy Lee
I can tell you what this liberal thinks, this really only means that another insurgents will rise up in his place. This is a movement that is many years in the making and will not be suppressed by the death of Zarqawi. Although this is one of the better things that we have done in Iraq it will end up being as pointless as all the other "accomplishments" that we have made there. We need to bring our troops home and let Iraq decide it's own future. I know many of you will disagree with me and I’m not looking to start another flame war, just an opinion.

[bushi96]

I heard the Iraqi militia were the first on the scene. I hope they get to keep the body. I would like to see how Zarqawi looks hanging from a bridge for a few days. We cant do things like that.

As far as the Arab/Persian civil war? Eh...who knows. I think Zarqawi was just trying to use that conflict for his own ends. I do not think he was actaully a leader in the conflict. As far as us and the conflict goes, we need to make a decision. Either take sides and beat someone into submission. Or back out and let them destroy each other. ***** footing around to be politically correct is just going to cost more lives on each side.

Personally, I would be fine seeing Iraq as a sheet of glass or our next Puerto Rico (pay taxes, but you cant vote!). Wait, cant have any radioactive oil running around. Crap. Well, not yet anyway...

Hey Ahmadinejad- You wanna play catch with our Air Force next???

[skyknight]

I will be interested in seeing the Democratic / Liberal reaction. Who knows I might be surprised.
Buddy Lee
I can tell you what this liberal thinks, this really only means that another insurgents will rise up in his place. This is a movement that is many years in the making and will not be suppressed by the death of Zarqawi. Although this is one of the better things that we have done in Iraq it will end up being as pointless as all the other "accomplishments" that we have made there. We need to bring our troops home and let Iraq decide it's own future. I know many of you will disagree with me and I’m not looking to start another flame war, just an opinion.

Even in victory you will always find those who can downplay the importance of events when it does not fit into their agenda.

[jdtenor]

Well said skyknght!!! now back to celebrating

[-Zim-]

:toast: :headbang: :johnwoo2:

Yea!!!!

I think in reality that went like this.

:johnwoo2: :headbang: :toast:

:D

Bannister

I think it went more like this.

Finging the Terrorist:
:shock: :twisted: :footinmouth: :bowdown: :johnwoo2:

Afterward:
:poke: :grouphug: :toast: :drunk: :google:

Then the guy who wrote this post: :ban:
:joke:

[Fallen Templar]

We bombed his ASS real nice bye bye Zarqawi :johnwoo2: :passout: His 100 virgins are gonna have 100 horns were he's goin

[-Zim-]

So they are going to be horny?

I don't get it :wink:

[Fallen Templar]

I don't get it :wink: Its a reference to the 100 virgins and hell I'm tired I've been studying all day I'm sick of the damn tests. Theres no time for me to be sarcastic :wink: :D

[-Zim-]

I don't get it :wink: Its a reference to the 100 virgins and hell I'm tired I've been studying all day I'm sick of the damn tests. Theres no time for me to be sarcastic :wink: :D

Lol It was a joke, notice the winking guy.

[ninthdoc]

bushi, you're my new hero!

skyknight you were already one of my heros!

Will you people please stop quoting people that I've taken my precious time to block? It defeats the purpose! :johnwoo2: http://www.muhajabah.com/images/brother.gif

[ultradoug]

so now to smash binladden....

[Venom]

all we need now is to get this guy
http://www.wackyvids.com/movies/humour/25/binladenonair.html

[Malechi]

An excellent day indeed! :D

I would have to believe Bin Laden has been looking up and checking the skies above his hidey-hole all day after hearing his cave buddy* Zarqawi was given an extra-strength aerial enema!

:shock:





I had orinally put a different kind of buddy in my post, but decided to keep it family friendly.

:twisted:

[Mr. Underhill]

Great day for America and, more importantly, for the citizens of Iraq. ... Just so you know my background, I am an Air Force Academy graduate who served for 10 years in Space Command and current work for a major military contractor..Doesn't that mean that you will be biased in discussions of this nature?

... but I feel I'm well informed (and I'm watching Fox News with briefings by generals as I type this)Fox? Bwaahahahahahah! Come on people!!!!!

I realise that this thread is of a political nature and is thus a sensitive one. So I have endeavoured to hold back somewhat.

I'm not a supporter of Zarqawi (I know only what I've seen in the mainstream media), but it's fair to say that there are two sides to every story. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

Who in this thread/community is qualified to offer any real commentary on this issue that extends beyond personal opinion, second hand information or media manufactured propaganda?

Hmmmm. You're all great guys (and girls) so I hope I haven't offended anyone. Living in Oz just gives us a different perspective, and I just wanted to share mine.


Peace.

Mr. Underhill

[ultradoug]

whover is not dead makes history.

[shakey_snake]

My ten cents (http://www.pabook.net/forums/index.php?automodule=blog&blogid=41&showentry=2134)

[ultradoug]

oh my word you've got a hot chick! *explodes*

[bushi96]

Mr. Underhill- I am quite pleased to hear opinions from around the world. There are a few who post here that have fought in Afghanistan (any from Iraq???). I hold their opinion to a higher standard than the media. I like to get my information from the horses mouth whenever possible.

Bin Laden poses an interesting question. He may be more valuable alive than dead. At this point, he is alive and still the figurehead of Al Qaida. But he has almost no communications left and rides around on a jackass. He cant even look at a pay phone and our Spec Ops are all over his ass. In essence he is alive but neutralized. If we kill him (and please- we CAN kill him. Our military has all of the cool toys!), the next in line will take over. We may or may not know who this one is. He may or may not have communications available. He may or may not have money and charisma. "The devil you know is better than the devil you dont."

From what I understand Zarqawi was a lunatic strongarm. He wasnt a leader like Bin Laden is. But of course, this is all conjecture on my part.

[dra(gon)]

it is like a hydra one head up the next will come. the question ist only why
did they bomb him? get him alive isbetter or dying in a bullet storm . so he coud betrade by and they bomb him .

[skyknight]

I had a huge post here but when I submitted it it did not go through, I am not retyping the whole thing so I will give you a quick rundown.

I was wondering if when the Japanese were coming into Australia were they also considered freedom fighters? You are lucky Saki is not your national drink. I do believe you would have a different view if Sydney was smouldering because of these people, and yes Zarqawi is one of these people. Australia has no worries mate because of the security provided by the US, what would happen if we became Isolationists again, is China to be trusted? What about all of these tin dictators, who is going to step up and do what is right? Australia? I was aboard a C-5 going into Darwin and then bringing war into East Timor to stop the muslims from slaughtering Christians. I kissed my wife and three children at the time goodbye and put on my war gear, loaded my helicopter in another C-5 and left for combat, at the last moment we were turned around because after a couple of weeks Australia decided to send in her Marines. I was home the next day. Why was I on my way? Timor is your backyard. I was on my way because Australia is slowly becoming the South of the equators Canada. I have seen other posts of yours in favor of gun control(sort of), and now almost a defense of Zarqawi. I like you Mr Underhill, but I believe your politics do make you biased, after all hating the US is the new international sport. I am not writng this in a mean spirited tone whatsoever, please do not take it that way. We all have opinions, I just find it surprising that people who will condemn the US for stacking naked men on top of eachother in the next breath willl downplay the evil of a man who puts heads in vegtable crates. Well until next time, Sainora...
I think I spelled that right.

[ultradoug]

Sayounara.
日本は揺れる!

[Agent Minivann]

I think its classic that the intel that said where he was came from within Al Qaeda.

[Tiberius]

I agree, but the guy was a maniac, he would kill his own people or anyone else that would disagree with his position. That probably ticked off his own people.

[Grungebob]

I had a huge post here but when I submitted it it did not go through, I am not retyping the whole thing so I will give you a quick rundown.

I was wondering if when the Japanese were coming into Australia were they also considered freedom fighters? You are lucky Saki is not your national drink. I do believe you would have a different view if Sydney was smouldering because of these people, and yes Zarqawi is one of these people. Australia has no worries mate because of the security provided by the US, what would happen if we became Isolationists again, is China to be trusted? What about all of these tin dictators, who is going to step up and do what is right? Australia? I was aboard a C-5 going into Darwin and then bringing war into East Timor to stop the muslims from slaughtering Christians. I kissed my wife and three children at the time goodbye and put on my war gear, loaded my helicopter in another C-5 and left for combat, at the last moment we were turned around because after a couple of weeks Australia decided to send in her Marines. I was home the next day. Why was I on my way? Timor is your backyard. I was on my way because Australia is slowly becoming the South of the equators Canada. I have seen other posts of yours in favor of gun control(sort of), and now almost a defense of Zarqawi. I like you Mr Underhill, but I believe your politics do make you biased, after all hating the US is the new international sport. I am not writng this in a mean spirited tone whatsoever, please do not take it that way. We all have opinions, I just find it surprising that people who will condemn the US for stacking naked men on top of eachother in the next breath willl downplay the evil of a man who puts heads in vegtable crates. Well until next time, Sainora...
I think I spelled that right.SK, I just read Mr. Underhill's post and there is nothing wrong with it. He points out the fact that FOX news and the views of the person he quoted have obvious bias, and who wouldn't agree? He also makes a point that I made earlier. IN IRAQ there are people who thought Zarqawi was an inspiration and a freedom fighter. These people are now even more pissed off. So peace and stability is not the eventuality of this event at all. I don't want the sheeple of this country taking this as anything more than what it is: A step in a process that will be ongoing perhaps for the rest of my life.

[Venom]

plus maybe... the 25(?) million dollar reward helped :shrug:

hey did I get ghost modded? what happened to the links i provided to yahoo's news on this subject w/ the photo and video of the attack? and why is it now down in yahoo's news itself? they get ghost modded also?

[ultradoug]

I agreed with shakey, its sad to have to kill others to win, but thats war.
its also sad that every "victory" comes with a press relice "well thats a good step, but the wars still going on."
I do not think we will see an end to this untill bush is out of office.
no idea if that will end it regardless.

[skyknight]

I was not trying to be mean, I was just strying to point out that we all have biases, Australians included. About being there along time, maybe, If Iraq does not ask us to leave it is a very real possibility. I am just making a point that it is very easy to downplay the importance of this guy just to never concede the point that the death of Zarqawi is a good thing. Anyways Mr. Underhill I am sorry if I come off strongly, I am an opinionated person, sorry about that, I ,meant no disrespect I was just putting up some topic starters.
One last thing, being in Iraq a long time does not mean that there will always be trouble, perhaps one day the region willl know some sort of stability and we as americans can breathe a sigh of relief. It has always been a goal of mine to travel Egypt, as of right now, no thank you, my head looks better on my neck I think. :P

[Grungebob]

Skyknight it is my belief and the belief of many others that our country is using the inherent instability of the middle east as an excuse to practice neocolonialism. Whether you agree with that or not, it is easy to understand why other nations are resentful toward us. Not everyone wants to "sip wine" with us. I think also that it is important for us as a nation to self-examine. WE are a nation of hipocrites, and it drives me crazy. We have a pathological need to feel as though we are the guys in white hats but we are viewed as the one true global threat by almost every other country out there.


NEOCOLONIALISM

Disguised form of imperialism, by which a country may grant independence to another country but continue to dominate it by control of markets for goods or raw materials. Examples of countries that have used economic pressure to secure and protect their interests internationally are the USA and Japan.

Many developing countries, heavily dependent on leading industrial nations, are subject to this new form of imperialism, with significant proportions of their national product being allocated to payment of interest on accumulated foreign debts.

[skyknight]

First off Gb I am glad you did not call it straight out imperialism, I cannot name one place we have been in the last 60 years that we now have an occupying force in a holding ground style. If Iraq asks us to leave, we will, plain and simple. Same with Germany, Japan, and anyother countries. THe US could attack any country in the world and possess it, yet we do not, why, because I believe the US is full of good intentioned people. There are long term American policies that have gotten us into this mess in Iraq, but on the other hand, these people would butcher us out of ideaology anyways. These are not tolerant people, do we just pull back and let Iran build a bomb? Do you trust a man who believes he is the one to start the muslim version of the apocalypse. No I disagree, where you see a country that wants to rule the world in some fashion, I see a vibrant country full of good people who believe they are generally doing the right thing for a better world. The best thing that could ever happen is a complete move away from oil and make these countries as dirt poor as they had been for centuries. We can then send in Sally strothers to help out.
As far as these other countries not wanting to sip wine with us, do you mean France, France has never been an ally to the US, they are always there when they need us, that is it. We have along history with France and none if it has been good since the revolution. Russia maybe? These are the same guys arming these countries to the teeth and talking out of both sides of their mouth . France also fits in this category. Germany? when we went to war at first, Scroeder was elected on an anti US campaign, now for being anti-US he sure has not asked us to leave his country, Why? Because everyone wants the US to defend them in a time of need. France has beautiful social programs because they have no defense budget. If we pull out would they put togehter an army? Or would they allow another country to walk in again and take over? I will say God bless Britian, she has always been there for us and us for her as well, these people are some of the most stiff backed folks you will ever meet. God save the queen. They do not fold because of a terrorist attack, like Spain, instead they just drive on. We could use some more friends like the UK.

[ultradoug]

Iraq's budding goverment can not ask the usa to leave because without the forces to support them the limmited goverment would be overrun and eather anacary would preveail or some dictator would rise up.
USA is stuck in iraq becuase we are making them have a democary that will evetualy (at some point) have a police/mitary force able to protect it from up rising, if enough americans rose up we could over turn our own goverment? I think not- the police and milatary would stop us, our freedoms are really more immagened then real, it would take years to vote in any new system, because the proceess is not able to change itself as much as we would like to belive, the fact that we can vote in a new leader every 4 years (and maybe) vote them out is irrevelent, the voting process is still not perfect, and the people that win politics are largely the people that had the most money.

No system is perfect, and establishing a system such as ours will take years and its not a system that Iraq really wants or that will work for them, but its slowly forming regardless of what some in the newly formed system want anyway, something has to give at some point we will pull our our toops, IF the policitcal system does work the next presdent who wins will most likely be whoever promices to pull our the remaining forces in "x" time or something like that.

I'm ranting oh bane I cant stop its a slippery sloap!
Anyway my point ? I dont rember.
everyones going to disagree anyway so it really does not matter :p
I know I'll solve it with Zzzzzzzzzz.
ahh all better.

[ultradoug]

I'll stamp this with my large stamp of deny! There I'm done. poof!

[Grungebob]

I see a vibrant country full of good people who believe they are generally doing the right thing for a better worldI see a country full of consumers who are preoccupied saving up money for a boob job or botox, Tivoing Desparate Housewives, and getting their news from People magazine. Tell them ANYTHING that allows them to feel "ok" about what's going on, and they will gladly go back to watching American Idol.

[ultradoug]

Hey thats not fair, I'm not saving money for a boob job!

I'm saving it to reduce my butt size!

darn it Gbob get it right!

oh crap I'm sposta not be in this post anymore...

[skyknight]

Anyways I am at work now so Zarqawi is dead YAY 8)

[toddrew]

I think not- the police and milatary would stop us, our freedoms are really more immagened then real, it would take years to vote in any new system, because the proceess is not able to change itself as much as we would like to belive, the fact that we can vote in a new leader every 4 years (and maybe) vote them out is irrevelent, the voting process is still not perfect, and the people that win politics are largely the people that had the most money.



It seems most on this board get lulled to sleep by your randomness and then abruptly awoken by a (almost :) ) cogent, insightful remark buried within. Well, I'm awake, awake, I'm awake :D - was very hesitant to post as it seemed this one was a "party-line" discussion, but great point UD about how most bicker and chide a bureaucracy's inefficiencies while enjoying the crippling stability that it provides.

UD, my prayers are with you as you endeavour to reduce your keister :)

[ultradoug]

yah! whatever he said!
darn it sersouly, I'm out of this post... really :D

[Bannister]

... the sheeple of this country...

I know we are being all serious and all, but I couldn't let this go. "Sheeple" that was great.

:D

Maybe I have just missed them, but GB it seems to me it has been awhile since you laid down a serious political post. I have always liked what you had to say.

Bannister

[Scott]

Skyknight, I wouldn't worry too much about the Aussies. Despite the opinions of the one Aussie in this thread, the majority of his countrymen are clearly on our side - they've kept John Howard in power!

As for the Germans, they've thrown out Schroeder for being too anit-US. The new Chancellor is much friendlier. And Canada now has a conservative government too. Their PM told off Cindy Sheehan! So I guess we'll have to stop picking on them, at least about the Global War on Terror.

Some of the moral equivalence (and from a born-again Christian too?!?) and other platitudes expressed here have been disheartening. Look, your college professor that taught you all this nonsense wasn't brilliant or insightful. College professors have their jobs because they couldn't survive in the real world you live in. If you don't stop and ask yourself why you are disagreeing with someone like Skyknight and agreeing with someone in a tweed jacket...

[Buddy Lee]

It seems most on this board get lulled to sleep by your randomness and then abruptly awoken by a (almost :) ) cogent, insightful remark buried within. . .

Now, if only he could learn to spell and use proper grammar UD would truly be seen for the genius that he is.

Also, Mr. Underhill, I believe that Scott clearly stated his position and even gave a demonstration of where his views came from. He was clearly explaining his own biases (sp?). There is no problem with explaining why you hold your views. It allows the reader to gain perspective so that the arguments can either be accepted or rejected.

I would be interested in your answers to my questions in a point by point manner simular to Scott's.

Buddy Lee

[Bannister]

Look, your college professor that taught you all this nonsense wasn't brilliant or insightful. College professors have their jobs because they couldn't survive in the real world you live in. If you don't stop and ask yourself why you are disagreeing with someone like Skyknight and agreeing with someone in a tweed jacket...

...sheeple... My new favorite word.

While I, and others will freely admit that this country has it's fair share of "sheeple", don't automatically assume that those with a "liberal" view clearly can't think on their own. Also, don't automatically assume that those with a "conservative" view are clearly intelligent and thinking on their own. Rush, isn't always right.

Bannister

[toddrew]

While I, and others will freely admit that this country has it's fair share of "sheeple", don't automatically assume that those with a "liberal" view clearly can't think on their own. Also, don't automatically assume that those with a "conservative" view are clearly intelligent and thinking on their own. Rush, isn't always right.

Bannister

And vice versa, of course ;)

EDIT: Except the "Rush, isn't always right" bit, no versa to that vice :)

[cbs42]

I see a vibrant country full of good people who believe they are generally doing the right thing for a better worldI see a country full of consumers who are preoccupied saving up money for a boob job or botox, Tivoing Desparate Housewives, and getting their news from People magazine. Tell them ANYTHING that allows them to feel "ok" about what's going on, and they will gladly go back to watching American Idol.
Wow GB, is it always raining where you live?

[Bannister]

While I, and others will freely admit that this country has it's fair share of "sheeple", don't automatically assume that those with a "liberal" view clearly can't think on their own. Also, don't automatically assume that those with a "conservative" view are clearly intelligent and thinking on their own. Rush, isn't always right.

Bannister

And vice versa, of course ;)

EDIT: Except the "Rush, isn't always right" bit, no versa to that vice :)

There are stupid people on both sides, it is just that it is easier to see the stupid people when they say things you "don't" agree with.

Bannister

PS. Rush isn't always right.

[dra(gon)]

the problem war has change.
in the pat army a comes to land of army b killed al and called lanb now a.


after that aland a send an army to land b after army b is defended . land a rule land b as conquer.and kill and hunt all opposit force.


later land acomes to land be fiights only bad army and bring lanb freedom and democratic.


now land a send army to land b but oh no big army that we destroy only one men armys . the is the problem to the land didnot will be free they did not want western things. soldiers as civilperson= terorists?

ad waht can land a take from land b? gold, slaves ect....? nothing
the land ist a waste only oil because the need it. land b need no oil they have it and the other things comes from oil.

oil ist the thing that brings death , if someone sell it some body buy it.

waht hurts amerika in the iraq? nothing the replace a regimebut i t was a box of pandora.

[ninthdoc]

I'm totally stealing "sheeple" for a new sig line.

[toddrew]

dra(gon),

Please don't take this as an insult. I usually have no problem with what you are saying, and your english is normally quit good. But, I honestly think I could have understood that better if you had written it in German (of course you would have to use small words). :) :D

Buddy Lee

Excuse me as I take the liberty of surmising (dra)gon's post:

In centuries past wars were about conquering and occupying lands to gain control of resources.

In this case, America in Iraq, America wants the resources (oil), but doesn't want to occupy Iraq, so instead rationalizes the aggression by framing the conflict as enabling the mandate of the people of Iraq for a western-style democracy - a mandate that is not there.

Iraq was not a threat to America, as was the first rationale for the ground war in Iraq, but access/control of oil reserves was/is the real reason.

(dra)gon, not my intent to put words in your mouth, so please post any incorrect interpretations I ventured forth :) Also, the views expressed herein are not necessarily those of the station... :D

[Sydcomebak]

College professors have their jobs because they couldn't survive in the real world you live in. If you don't stop and ask yourself why you are disagreeing with someone like Skyknight and agreeing with someone in a tweed jacket...

I am a college prfoessor and I'd like some clarification here. Exactly how long ago, and for how long were you in college, Scott?

Tweed indeed...

[justncaseur1-2]

If the killing of 24 Iraq’s in Haditha by the American marines is proven to have been an act of cold blooded murder would you also celebrate these marines receiving the death penalty for it? The question is, are you celebrating the death of someone who killed many innocent people or are you celebrating the death of someone who was a threat to your nationalistic pride? Is it an American value or a human one? While we are celebrating the killing of Zarqawi we also condemn the celebration of Iraqi’s over the death of Americans. Killing in all forms is wrong, whether as an action or as a reaction. The celebration of said killing is a visceral response and not a thoughtful one and certainly not a Christian value as Shakey points out. I was raised a Buddhist and was also taught that someone’s death should never be celebrated. I don’t think that there any reason to celebrate any war time activity, unless it’s the ending of said activity and the death of Zarqawi has brought us no closer to this conclusion.

[Buddy Lee]

If the killing of 24 Iraq’s in Haditha by the American marines is proven to have been an act of cold blooded murder would you also celebrate these marines receiving the death penalty for it?

No. But I don't celebrate the death of Zarqawi. I am happy that a villianous, evil individual is no longer a threat to others. In the case of the Marines, if convicted in a Courts Martial, I will be satisfied that justice is served.

The question is, are you celebrating the death of someone who killed many innocent people or are you celebrating the death of someone who was a threat to your nationalistic pride?

If I were celebrating it would be because someone who killed many innocent people is no longer a threat to others.

Is it an American value or a human one?

Human. There are certain basic values that I believe transcend all national, religioius, and ethnic boundries. Values that I believe the terrorists do not share.

While we are celebrating the killing of Zarqawi we also condemn the celebration of Iraq’s over the death of Americans. Killing in all forms is wrong, whether as an action or as a reaction. The celebration of said killing is a visceral reaction and not a thoughtful one and certainly not a Christian value as Shakey points out. I was raised a Buddhist and was also taught that someone’s death should never be celebrated. I don’t think that there any reason to celebrate any war time activity, unless it’s the ending of said activity and the death of Zarqawi has brought us no closer to this conclusion.

I stated in a previous thread (on another website. .net I believe) that I value all human life, indeed all life for that matter. That however does not keep me from recognizing the positive aspects of an individual death. Zarqawi was a threat to human life. That threat was eliminated. It is as simple as that. I am sure that Bush, et.al. are viewed the same by others. I would disagree with them, but that doesn't make me want to kill them (the Sercret Service however... :wink: But that's their job).

If I might go on a tangent for a moment ( and get closer to that "Gun Nut" title I am petitioning for). The use of a firearm for self defense should not be to kill anyone. It should be used to TERMINATE A THREAT. That is what we did in Irag two days ago.

I do not hate any terrorist, Islamic radical, IRA member, Basque Separitist, etc. On a personal level I wish them no ill will. That, however, does not preclude me from desiring to end their existance as a threat to myself or others. Simple logic, and desire for human preservation, dictates that I elliminate them before they have the opportunity to do the same to me.

Buddy Lee

BTW, ninthdoc, I deliberately quoted JC1-2 to **** you off.

[justncaseur1-2]

Trust me when I say that I certanly don't feel remorse over the killing of Zarqawi, he was definitly an evil person, but I do have a problem with the "celebration" aspect of many of the post here, not necessarily your post Buddy, but others.

BTW: Ninthdoc, I deliberately quoted JC1-2 to **** you off.
I'm always happy to help P.O. the 9thdoc

[dra(gon)]

the problem is what a hero is.
best exampel the patriot(movie), a freedoom(a good joke) fighter, or only a terroris. the english soldiers are evil
the same like wiliam wallace in brave heart.
one party say hero the other terrorist.

in germany was a a film" tal der wölfe" about a turkey agent who kill bad american soldiers in the of alah, the film was a great sucsess on turkey peopel in germany. amerika is bad.

the film was like missing in action only the bad are americans. and the revance is more for god death the devil.

[Buddy Lee]

the problem is what a hero is.
best exampel the patriot(movie), a freedoom(a good joke) fighter, or only a terroris. the english soldiers are evil
the same like wiliam wallace in brave heart.
one party say hero the other terrorist.

in germany was a a film" tal der wölfe" about a turkey agent who kill bad american soldiers in the of alah, the film was a great sucsess on turkey peopel in germany. amerika is bad.

the film was like missing in action only the bad are americans. and the revance is more for god death the devil.

See. That I understood.

Buddy Lee

[dra(gon)]

The disputed Turkish Actionfilm “valley of the wolves” is a in this country public magnet under Migranten. Now Bayerns demands Prime Minister Edmund Stoiber to take the strips from the German cinemas - he stirs up the culture fight and is racistic. Berlin - “valley of the wolves” is to disappear from the cinemas, to required Stoiber immediately. It appealed to the operators of the light play theatres to take the strips from the program. The film is racistic, is to contribute to a fight of the cultures and plays radicals into the hands. The Bavarian Prime Minister at the same time required a clear statement of the government in Ankara. REUTERS Prime Minister Stoiber: “Clearly position refer” “Here the European Union candidate Turkey should refer clearly position”, said the Bavarian Prime Minister the “picture on Sunday”. The irresponsible strip promotes not integration, but spreads hate and distrust against the west. “After the positive moderating role of the Turkish government to the Mohammed caricatures still a clear word would be necessary”, said Stoiber for this anti-western hate film. The strip is directed against the culture and values of Europe. In “valley of the wolves” a Turkish secret service hero fights in the Iraq against the Americans. The film begins with the description of a true occurence from the Iraq war, when US soldiers in the north Iraq arrest Turkish military posts and them bags over the head invert, which provided in Turkey for large indignation. The criticism at the film catches fire above all from the fact that the west, Christian and Jew as enemy picture of the Islamic world were represented. VOTE “Valley of the wolves” The disputed Turkish Actionfilm “valley of the wolves” is a in this country public magnet under Migranten. Now Bayerns demands Prime Minister Stoiber to take the strips from the German cinemas - he stirs up the culture fight and is racistic. Is the film from the Kindo to disappear? Thus a Jewish physician takes Iraqi prisoners of organs in a film scene, which are intended for the export into the USA, to Great Britain and Israel. Already in the past week the European delegates of the Greens, Cem Özedmir had accused, in a contribution for MIRROR ON-LINE ONE to the film, he served racistic of resentment. The film runs in several cinemas in Germany with German sub-titles, among other things in Berlin and Munich. Since its start forwards over one week it became the cash racer, nearly all conceptions is sells off. Apart from his criticism at “valley of the wolves” the CSU chairman appeared also anxiously over it, that always new torture pictures from the Iraq to the public turned out. It required a clear signal of the Americans opposite the western world. “Who like the USA everywhere in the world for liberty and occurs, should not themselves here make open to attack.” It must be made unmistakably clear that torture pictures with the values of the western world would not have anything in common.

[Ryougabot]

I'm totally stealing "sheeple" for a new sig line.

Oh yes, I am a sheeple, and oh so proud to be.
I am way too smart to believe in a conspiracy.
Three towers falling straight down - it all makes sense to me.
They're all just jealous of me, because I live so free.

Terrorists in hiding everywhere I cannot see.
I know they're out there cause I heard it on tv.
My paper is honest, it would never lie to me.
Oh yes, I am a sheeple, and so proud to be.

The UN is so stupid, as blind as it can be.
Antiwar protestors should be hanging from a tree.
They and all the traitors - ship them off to Germany!
But me, I am a sheeple, and oh so proud to be.

We saved the Iraqis, the bad guys had to flee.
Now those people love us, they're dancing with such glee.
The whole wide world should thank me, all on bended knee.
Oh yes, I am a sheeple, and oh so proud to be.

Author unknown

There are Sheeple on both sides

[Buddy Lee]

I'm totally stealing "sheeple" for a new sig line.
There are Sheeple on both sides

Yes. But our sheeple have guns. :wink:

Buddy Lee

[Sydcomebak]

Yes. But our sheeple have guns. :wink:

Buddy Lee

Depends on the state you live in. =P

Thank god I'll be in PA soon. CCW permit is in the mail.

[Buddy Lee]

Yes. But our sheeple have guns. :wink:

Buddy Lee

Depends on the state you live in. =P

Thank god I'll be in PA soon. CCW permit is in the mail.

Biting my tongue. Biting my tongue.

Buddy Lee

[justncaseur1-2]

I will be interested in seeing the Democratic / Liberal reaction. Who knows I might be surprised.
Buddy Lee
I can tell you what this liberal thinks, this really only means that another insurgents will rise up in his place. This is a movement that is many years in the making and will not be suppressed by the death of Zarqawi. Although this is one of the better things that we have done in Iraq it will end up being as pointless as all the other "accomplishments" that we have made there. We need to bring our troops home and let Iraq decide it's own future. I know many of you will disagree with me and I’m not looking to start another flame war, just an opinion.

Even in victory you will always find those who can downplay the importance of events when it does not fit into their agenda.
IF you consider killing people a victory then we've had about 30,000 victories so far in Iraq. If you consider killing high level leaders of terrorist organizations a victory then we have about 20 or more victories so far across the world. When will all these victories actually means something is my question.

[Bannister]

Can Admin have custom titles?

If so, GB should be "Voice of the Sheeple"

:lol:

Bannister

[ninthdoc]

Great post, Buddy.

BTW, ninthdoc, I deliberately quoted JC1-2 to **** you off.

I didn't name any names.

Buddy is dead on with his statement about the use of the term "eliminate a threat" as opposed to "kill". I would like to refer you all to a long, but very valid essay called Warrior Ethos. It is an excellent assessment of the necessity of actions such as these and those who are tasked with committing these action.

This is long, but I could not find it on the web, so I'm including it here. I received it via e-mail sometime back.
______________________________________________________________________ __________________

By LTC(RET) Dave Grossman, RANGER, Ph.D.,author of "On Killing."

Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so
because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always, even death itself. The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for? - William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997



One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me: "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is
that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another.

Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent
crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time
record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation:
We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful.? For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves
feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out
there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it.
There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep.
There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to
protect the flock and confront the wolf."

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive
citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed. Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil
in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools.

But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police
officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa."

Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.

Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf bounded
hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero?

Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep
pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day.
After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.

There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population.

There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted
of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself.

Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was
honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents. -- from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.

"Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after
that?"

There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil
of evil men. - Edmund Burke

Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of
police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real
sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision.

If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but
you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.

For example, many officers carry their weapons in church.? They are well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs.? Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual
in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your
loved ones.

I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?"

Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would
probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and
would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them.

Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have and idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"

It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and
horror when the wolf shows up.

Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear helplessness and horror at your moment of truth.

Gavin de Becker puts it like this in Fear Less, his superb post-9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms with our current world situation: ...denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more unsettling.

Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some level.

And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes. If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself... "Baa."

This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically at your moment of truth.
______________________________________________________________________ ____

If you're still with me, for those of you who don't know it, I am a police officer IRL. I made this public on the HQ in November of last year. This essay is the best way to explain the unfortunate necessity of ending one life so that many others and live.

I pray to God every day that I'll never have to take a human life. I've come very close on more than one occasion. Instead of focusing on demonizing our soldiers, we should be supporting them. I've known police officers who had to take human lives. Some are never quite the same afterward. Our soldiers are the same way.

As a child, I dreamed of being a soldier and fighting in a war and earning all the glory that comes from being a hero. After watching the opening scenes of Saving Private Ryan, nobody in their right mind could ever want this. My own desire subsided with age, experience, and wisdom long before SPR ever came out.

As we celebrate that a great evil has be removed from our world, we should prepare for the next evil that will rise. Whether you, personally agree with the war that we are in or not, you should support the men and women that made this happen. They are our friends, family, loved ones, and lovers and we owe them a great debt that we cannot repay.

[ninthdoc]

Sorry about the formatting, I did the best that I could.

[justncaseur1-2]

Is it an American value or a human one?

Human. There are certain basic values that I believe transcend all national, religioius, and ethnic boundries. Values that I belief the terrorists do not share.

I think it's hard to understand the values of other cultures, I'm sure the terrorist value there own family and the people of there culture as much as you value your family and the people of your country (being that America is nationalistic and Arabs are more split among cultural and religious lines). I think that all people have certain basic values, it's just hard to recognize when it is in another society. We kill them and cheer because we have righted a wrong; they kill us and cheer because they have killed infidels. Both believe there right for the same reason.

[Buddy Lee]

Ninthdoc,

It brings tears to my eyes every time I read it.

Buddy Lee

[ultradoug]

boo

[Buddy Lee]

Is it an American value or a human one?

Human. There are certain basic values that I believe transcend all national, religioius, and ethnic boundries. Values that I belief the terrorists do not share.

I think it's hard to understand the values of other cultures, I'm sure the terrorist value there own family and the people of there culture as much as you value your family and the people of your country (being that America is nationalistic and Arabs are more split among cultural and religious lines). I think that all people have certain basic values, it's just hard to recognize when it is in another society. We kill them and cheer because we have righted a wrong; they kill us and cheer because they have killed infidels. Both believe there right for the same reason.

See, this is the problem.

There should be less, "Let's try to understand them" and more, "Let's just kill them because they want to kill us."

Buddy Lee

[Bannister]

BL,

I can't agree with you 100%. I think that on one hand you are correct, there are forces in the world who would do us harm for no better reason than because we are Americans. In these cases I say it is get them before they get you.

However, if we ever hope to reach a point where we can reasonably exist with those of middle eastern, muslim, Arabic, whatever... points of view, we must have a certain understanding of them. Not all Muslims are terrorists and chant death to America. We would do well to remember this.

Bannister

[Malechi]

*Sorry ninthdoc*

... I think that all people have certain basic values, it's just hard to recognize when it is in another society. We kill them and cheer because we have righted a wrong; they kill us and cheer because they have killed infidels. Both believe there right for the same reason.


Except that we try to eliminate specific threats. Most of the time we succeed, other times there is collateral damage. Much of the collateral damage is caused by the target himself hiding behind women and children used as a shield.

They kill anyone who does not agree with their specific religious doctrine. No matter how much you sympathize and defend these terrorist actions, know without a doubt given the chance they will behead you given the opportunity.

[justncaseur1-2]

"Let's just kill them because they want to kill us."

Buddy Lee
the problem is that this cycle never ends, they feel the same way. Trying to "understand" a problem is the first step to solving it.

and to 9thdoc long post, I agree that we need sheepdogs. The problem arises when politicians use well-meaning sheepdogs to take on wolf-like activities for their own gain.

[gibberish_47]

Thanks for that ninth. I think that gives me an even greater appreciation than I already had for our troops and officers.

[daevablacc]

Is it an American value or a human one?

Human. There are certain basic values that I believe transcend all national, religioius, and ethnic boundries. Values that I belief the terrorists do not share.

I think it's hard to understand the values of other cultures, I'm sure the terrorist value there own family and the people of there culture as much as you value your family and the people of your country (being that America is nationalistic and Arabs are more split among cultural and religious lines). I think that all people have certain basic values, it's just hard to recognize when it is in another society. We kill them and cheer because we have righted a wrong; they kill us and cheer because they have killed infidels. Both believe there right for the same reason.
I don't believe in right or wrong so I don't feel it had to be done coz it was the "right" thing to do. I believe in killing those who seek to kill me or those whom I value. I like it done to protect what I value. Understanding why they want to kill me won't stop them from trying to kill me. Killing them will. Coz' I don't believe in ghosts ;)

& yes, I do celebrate :headbang: :toast: :rock: :headbang: :twisted: the killing of the terrorist. I don't see anything wrong with celebrating the termination of a threat. There's no reason to feel bad about doing something that needed doing. That's just my personal opinion, of course.

[Buddy Lee]

BL,

I can't agree with you 100%. I think that on one hand you are correct, there are forces in the world who would do us harm for no better reason than because we are Americans. In these cases I say it is get them before they get you.

However, if we ever hope to reach a point where we can reasonably exist with those of middle eastern, muslim, Arabic, whatever... points of view, we must have a certain understanding of them. Not all Muslims are terrorists and chant death to America. We would do well to remember this.

Bannister

You see. This is the other problem.

The terrorists have demonstrated time and time again: Akili Laurel (sp?), Lockerby Scottland, WTC '93, Kenya and Tanzania Embassy Bombings, USS Cole (okay, that was a military target, so I have "less" of a problem with it), 9/11, Indonesia, Madrid, London, Slaughtering of Innocents in Iraq, and the list goes on; that they do not want a dialogue.

Therefore there is no understanding to be found because there is no foundation to build upon. As soon as we start the foundation the terrorists (primarily Islamic Radicals) will seek to destroy it.

What is so hard to understand about the fact that we are in a fight for survival, and survival requires the most dire of actions. Whether or not you position yourself to believe that we brought it upon ourselves is inmaterial. We are in it. We must endeavor to succeed.

If I truly thought that the terrorists would stop their agressive actions, come to the negotiation table and talk about greviences then I would be in favor of discussions. I would also be a fool.

Buddy Lee

[Bannister]

BL,

I think if you will reread me, you will realize that I A) have no problem fighting terrorists with force and B) have no delusions about trying to bring them to the negotiating table. If I believed that, you are correct, I would be a fool. But, if I also believe that military action will bring terrorism under control or even that military actions are my only means of combat, then I could also be so labled.

Bannister

[justncaseur1-2]

know without a doubt given the chance they will behead you given the opportunity.
I also know that my American military will kill them in order to defend me, given the opportunity. They believe they are doing the same thing (defending what they hold dear). I don't believe that an Iraqi citizen (not a terrorist) would behead me if given a chance, as i would not choose to kill any of them if given a chance.

[daevablacc]

They believe they are doing the same thing (defending what they hold dear).
That doesn't change the fact "they" still have to be eleminated.

[Scott]

College professors have their jobs because they couldn't survive in the real world you live in. If you don't stop and ask yourself why you are disagreeing with someone like Skyknight and agreeing with someone in a tweed jacket...

I am a college prfoessor and I'd like some clarification here. Exactly how long ago, and for how long were you in college, Scott?

Tweed indeed...

If the professor would read the entire thread he would know that I am an Air Force Academy graduate. Further research would reveal that the Air Force Academy is a four year (no fifth year for the undecide majors)Bachelor of Science (even if it's in English) program that results in a commission as an officer in the United States Air Force. You may be more familiar with West Point and Anapolis, the other branches' equivalent institutions. And while most of the professors at these institutions are military, some are civilians. But I don't actually recall any wearing tweed jackets ;-)

I graduated in 1994. I also worked on an MBA for about 15 credits until I realized that finance bored me to tears (about 1998). Clear enough?

[Bannister]

They believe they are doing the same thing (defending what they hold dear).
That doesn't change the fact "they" still have to be eleminated.

"They" who? If you mean the terrorists, then I agree. If you mean the average Iraqi citizen or Arabs in general, then I disagree.

Which do you mean?

Bannister

[Bannister]

Scott,

I clearly detected a sense of humor in syd's post.

Did you?

Bannister

[daevablacc]

They believe they are doing the same thing (defending what they hold dear).
That doesn't change the fact "they" still have to be eleminated.

"They" who? If you mean the terrorists, then I agree. If you mean the average Iraqi citizen or Arabs in general, then I disagree.

Which do you mean?

Bannister
:) I meant the terrorists. Not at all the ave Iraqi or Arab.

-Daeva

[Bannister]

:) I meant the terrorists. Not at all the ave Iraqi or Arab.

-Daeva

Then I agree. :D

Bannister

[daevablacc]

Alright! Then LET THE KILLING BEGIN!!! :twisted: :johnwoo:


:wink:

[Nwojedi]

this thread again? Anyway, as I Stated before. If you want the No.1 terrorist. You need to smoke our own government. They are the ones that set it up, and Until we have new people in there. That is our biggest threat to terrorist attacks. With people that are buddy buddy with oil industry execs anyway.

[justncaseur1-2]

Current terrorist should be stopped, but trying to understand what created this hostility in the first place is key to dealing with all the future generation of Arabs. I don't buy that they hate us just because were christian, freedom loving, X-box Playing American. This hostility has a long tradition in the Arabs culture stemming all the way back to the crusades (I know America wasn't around in the crusades, I'm referring to western culture). It's a long history of "lets kill them before they kill us" and it's time that someone interjects another method of thought for this to end. It would be nice if America could lead as an example to the world and win this fight with the power of ideals (as we did in the Cold War, when we fought communism with weapons, we lost, i.e. Vietnam, Korea when we fought with the power of example and democracy, we won).

[Agent Minivann]

I think unfortunately they do hate us just because we are Christian, freedom loving, x-box playing Americans. They don't like Christians, they have a great track record of civil rights, and I think they're more of a PS2 type of crowd. I think the years of example has only pissed them off worse since they don't like us and the fact that we are successful. I think the real irony is that a big amount of the economic success they have had was fuelled primarily by our consumption of oil.

[LilNewbie]

The animosity towards the US (or any Western foreign power) stems from a lot of different sources. Our ties to Israel (the Jews and Arabs have been fighting each other for thousands of years), the western world invading their territory, their views on nationalism vs. state vs. tribal, Islamic religious views, etc. Plus trying to say every Iraqi over there feels the same is like saying every American feels the same. We only see what the news reports want us to see. If you think our politicians are corrupt (and they are), the press is just as bad. It's all for the greater glory of money. Interesting discussion though.

Newb.

[cbs42]

I think unfortunately they do hate us just because we are Christian, freedom loving, x-box playing Americans. They don't like Christians, they have a great track record of civil rights, and I think they're more of a PS2 type of crowd.
I knew something was screwed in the head with those terrorist organizations. The PS2 connection proves it!
:lol:

[Agent Minivann]

I think any mention of Arab sentiment and the press needs to include Al Jazeera (sp?) and that doesn't paint a very favorable picture for the west.

[bushi96]

Ninthdoc- you are awesome and should be praised everyday for being a hero. Even if you give me a ticket :? .

I like sheep. I really do. The only problem that I have with sheep is that they are too noisy. Baaaa...Baaaa....Baaaaa. Alllllllll day long. The same thing over and over again, with nothing really new to say. Well, and some of them with the dreadlocks stink. But other than that, I like sheep. I really, really do.

[Sydcomebak]

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf."

I retain my title of sheep-dog from an incident that was prevented in 2004 at a Martial Arts event in Lansing, MI.

That essay is HUGE, and I love reading it every chance I get.

-Dave

[skyknight]

BL,


However, if we ever hope to reach a point where we can reasonably exist with those of middle eastern, muslim, Arabic, whatever... points of view, we must have a certain understanding of them. Not all Muslims are terrorists and chant death to America. We would do well to remember this.

Bannister

I agree that not all Muslims are terrorists, but almost all terrorists are Muslims.

Btw Ninthdoc, I have never seen that essay, it hurt we in places I did not even know existed. It was absolutely wonderful. I am saving it and sending it to my friends in Iraq. Thank you for that. That is exactly what I wanted to say but am not articulate enough to phrase. I also love Theodore Roosevelts "the man in the arena". Thanks again.

[Sydcomebak]

College professors have their jobs because they couldn't survive in the real world you live in. If you don't stop and ask yourself why you are disagreeing with someone like Skyknight and agreeing with someone in a tweed jacket...

I am a college prfoessor and I'd like some clarification here. Exactly how long ago, and for how long were you in college, Scott?

Tweed indeed...

If the professor would read the entire thread he would know that I am an Air Force Academy graduate. Further research would reveal that the Air Force Academy is a four year (no fifth year for the undecide majors)Bachelor of Science (even if it's in English) program that results in a commission as an officer in the United States Air Force. You may be more familiar with West Point and Anapolis, the other branches' equivalent institutions. And while most of the professors at these institutions are military, some are civilians. But I don't actually recall any wearing tweed jackets ;-)

I graduated in 1994. I also worked on an MBA for about 15 credits until I realized that finance bored me to tears (about 1998). Clear enough?

Quite Clear

Congrats on that, exactly where in that laundry list of accolades do you retain the doctorate in know-it-all-ism to make blanket statements about college prof's? Checked my closet to make sure... No tweed.

[toddrew]

I agree that not all Muslims are terrorists, but almost all terrorists are Muslims.



And almost all of the terrorists who hijacked the planes on 9/11 had Saudi Arabian citizenship - none had Iraqi citizenship. Timothy McViegh was not a Muslim, definitely was a terrorist. I would guess that not one member of the IRA is/was Muslim. Not flaming here at all, just weary of distortions and generalizations.

[shakey_snake]

But most terrorists do follow some sort of extreme sect of Islam.
We just don't call the Mafia, the Israeli army or any of the crazy polygamy cults in the Western US "terrorists".

It's a semantic argument.

[Scott]

It would be nice if America could lead as an example to the world and win this fight with the power of ideals (as we did in the Cold War, when we fought communism with weapons, we lost, i.e. Vietnam, Korea when we fought with the power of example and democracy, we won).

So you were all for a strong nuclear deterent? Kennedy's blockade of Cuba? Reagan's policies?

I think it's disengenuous for liberals to use this argument. You may not have been old enough to support a "nulcear freeze" but people of you political persuasion were on the wrong side of history in the Cold War. No you want to say "let's be like Reagan"???

[Scott]

...exactly where in that laundry list of accolades do you retain the doctorate in know-it-all-ism to make blanket statements about college prof's? Checked my closet to make sure... No tweed.

I'm self taught!

True, I shouldn't have unloaded on ALL college professors, that was unfair. I was referring to cloistered, liberal college professors. What percentage of college professors - nation wide - fit that description?

More importantly, I was attacking college professors who expouse theories of moral equivalence or convince their students that communism is a great system if executed properly - usually instead of teaching the subject at hand.

[Sydcomebak]

...exactly where in that laundry list of accolades do you retain the doctorate in know-it-all-ism to make blanket statements about college prof's? Checked my closet to make sure... No tweed.

I'm self taught!

True, I shouldn't have unloaded on ALL college professors, that was unfair. I was referring to cloistered, liberal college professors. What percentage of college professors - nation wide - fit that description?

More importantly, I was attacking college professors who expouse theories of moral equivalence or convince their students that communism is a great system if executed properly - usually instead of teaching the subject at hand.

You are forgiven. =)

As a Sheep-Dog that teaches college classes for money & martial arts classes for the better of humanity, I can understand of whom you are speaking. I'm glad to find that you don't think us all that way.

[skyknight]

And also I conveniently put "almost" making allowances for those who fall outside these parameters, such as Timothy McVeigh. I hope you are not one of those guys who believe that ninety year old Grandmas need to be searched at airports.

Anyways ninthdoc I sat during dinner reflecting on the essay you posted here and I got to thinking that this man forgot to say one thing. He did not actually forget to say it but I think in a way it could be added. He forgot to mention that sheepdogs can smell eachother. As you know I work a tasting counter these days. I get these guys strolling in and we break into an easy conversation as if we were friends for tens of years. Many are surprised when I am ask them, so are you a cop or military? 95% of the time I am right. I can see it in their walk, in their talk, and in their mannerisms. Try as they like they cannot hide it. This also goes for seventy year old men who walk in, I can see it in their very eyes that they are sheepdogs and we talk almost like we served together in WWII though I am far to young for that and many are far to old to have seen what I've seen. It doesn't matter though. They come back to the winery on their next trip through and we pick up where we left off. All of my Great Uncles served in WWII and not one would really speak about it, I was always told growing up so do not ask. That is not true, they do not talk to the sheep about it, I would come home and my Great Uncle John who had his eardrums blown out would sit and chat with me for hours about the war while my family would look on in awed silence.
Above I mentioned that 95% of the time I am right. There are those that I believe are cops or military and it turns out they are neither. But that does not make them sheep, I can see the same swagger and instincts in them that I do my friends and I know it is a sheepdog who does not realize he is one. US 93 had some of these boys onboard. There are those folks who walk a different path but when push comes to shove they willl push back.
In turn I also got to the point as I am sure you have that not only can you smell the wolf in Sheeps clothing but you can also see the sheep and wolves in the sheepdogs coat. Just because you are military or a cop does not make you a sheepdog. I have met many that were not. I have gotten to the point in my life where most of the time I can pick these people out as well, it is something about them that does not sit right in your craw.
The other thing sheep do not understand is the posturing that goes on between sheepdogs. After 9/11 the commision tried to see if it was the rivalry between the police and firemen that caused the towers to fall on so many people. I almost had to laugh, I can't telll you the amount of times we would bow up in front of Marines, Air Force, or Navy just to compete. I played All Army Rugby and the Marine- Army games were generally blood baths. But I can guarantee you if you put these two together and threaten them or those that they love and you will not see rivalry, you will see a companionship that is almost undescribable.
Many of you may ask why I choose to post here, this is the only site I have ever belonged to or posted on. One reason is I live in a small town full of sheep, while I have acquaintances here, I really have no friends, though that is about to change, one of my Rugby friends is coming here and working as our chef. I am very excited about this. Anyways it is easier to talk here on this site than it is to people around this area. I lurked for a few months before posting because I did not know if I wanted to get involved with this community. Then I saw that there were cops, soldiers, present and past, and many other good people here. That is why I finally signed up and have stayed around. It is pathetic I know. But what do these people here in Watkins Glen and I have in common? They do not understand how many times I almost ate it in a ball of fire, they do not know what it is to risk their lives for an idea. I remember one time we were overloaded and we lost an engine, there was no bailing cargo because we had twin Humvees in the back, I sat down in the rear and buckled myself in, the radio was squaking with the pilots asking for an emergency landing, we were going down, I looked over at my flight engineer at the time and what did we do , we smiled at eachother, and I remember thinking to myself, well at least Larry and I are gonna burn in together, I guess thats ok. We skipped off the tops of the trees and finally cleared the forest and landed back on Ft Brag flight line. Now tell me what do I have in common with these people here in Watkins that I ever had in common with Larry? Nothing really, softball seems small, bar crowds are just not my thing, I don't care who is sleeping with who. My one true friend is my wife, she endured where many other women break, she spent months alone raising our children and shouldering a burden as large as mine. She is a Sheepdog as well, she is just my type :)

[justncaseur1-2]

It would be nice if America could lead as an example to the world and win this fight with the power of ideals (as we did in the Cold War, when we fought communism with weapons, we lost, i.e. Vietnam, Korea when we fought with the power of example and democracy, we won).

So you were all for a strong nuclear deterent? Kennedy's blockade of Cuba? Reagan's policies?

I think it's disengenuous for liberals to use this argument. You may not have been old enough to support a "nulcear freeze" but people of you political persuasion were on the wrong side of history in the Cold War. No you want to say "let's be like Reagan"???
You're right I was to young to support Reagan's policies, but my parent who are liberal democrats voted for Reagan. I do support strong defense, and even my parents don't remember the cuba crises, but from what i've read i would have supported it too. My arguement are never disengenuous.

[Grungebob]

...exactly where in that laundry list of accolades do you retain the doctorate in know-it-all-ism to make blanket statements about college prof's? Checked my closet to make sure... No tweed.

I'm self taught!

True, I shouldn't have unloaded on ALL college professors, that was unfair. I was referring to cloistered, liberal college professors. What percentage of college professors - nation wide - fit that description?

More importantly, I was attacking college professors who expouse theories of moral equivalence or convince their students that communism is a great system if executed properly - usually instead of teaching the subject at hand.73-91% of college professors are liberal depending upon which colleges you are talking about. I saw something about it on a show last week. There is concern that our schools do not reflect our culture and I am inclined to agree to some extent.

Sheeple are sheeple!!

[skyknight]

Sheeple are Sheeple


So why should it be, you and I should get along so awfully. :lol:

[cbs42]

73-91% of college professors are liberal depending upon which colleges you are talking about.
Wow you guys must have gone to Lib-Arts colleges. I have no doubt this stat is fairly accurate when it come to the Gen-Ed teachers, but if you get into a technical field (mine was Computer Science) you will pretty much never hear even a passing political comment from the professors.

That strengthens my opinion that engineers and scientists need to be the ones in office. Unfortunately, the ones most qualified for public office are the ones least likely to seek it. That's the paradox of politics -- we're destined to be lead by those least capable of leading properly.
:?

[Grungebob]

73-91% of college professors are liberal depending upon which colleges you are talking about.
Wow you guys must have gone to Lib-Arts colleges. I have no doubt this stat is fairly accurate when it come to the Gen-Ed teachers, but if you get into a technical field (mine was Computer Science) you will pretty much never hear even a passing political comment from the professors.

That strengthens my opinion that engineers and scientists need to be the ones in office. Unfortunately, the ones most qualified for public office are the ones least likely to seek it. That's the paradox of politics -- we're destined to be lead by those least capable of leading properly.
:?Our colleges should be balanced and should encourage all forms of cultural thinking, and political talk, and exploration should be open and free of programming. Sadly this is not the case in our schools.

[Nwojedi]

It's not a christian thing. I hate chrisiantiy probably as much as any arab and I still think we are the bad guys in this whole deal. We are the tyrants, and it has nothing to do with religion.

Why shouldn't they hate us? Look at it from their perspective and tell me what you'd be doing. We have this big macho country come in, start bombing the place, blaming some guy that has nothing to do with the nation, but the US is looking for him for some attack. We shift our sites from the patsy, and capture the leader of our country. Then we send armed troops over all of our city streets to "protect" us. While creating choas, getting rough with civialians and other unspeakable acts. What are they suppose to think. Civilians don't know our side of it, they only know what they see. and to them (and some of us) we look like barbarians. IF that was done to us by another country...don't you think there would be protest and hatred toward the country that pulled that crap on us? You bet. There country is being kicked around and becoming a patsy because they have something we want. So we are using lame ass excuses to go over there and take control. While oil companies over here, reap record profits.

[ninthdoc]

73-91% of college professors are liberal depending upon which colleges you are talking about.
Wow you guys must have gone to Lib-Arts colleges. I have no doubt this stat is fairly accurate when it come to the Gen-Ed teachers, but if you get into a technical field (mine was Computer Science) you will pretty much never hear even a passing political comment from the professors.

That strengthens my opinion that engineers and scientists need to be the ones in office. Unfortunately, the ones most qualified for public office are the ones least likely to seek it. That's the paradox of politics -- we're destined to be lead by those least capable of leading properly.
:?Our colleges should be balanced and should encourage all forms of cultural thinking, and political talk, and exploration should be open and free of programming. Sadly this is not the case in our schools.

Amen, brother Grungy!

I returned to college for the umpteenth billionth time the year before last. I was shocked to see all the professors that were espousing opinions as if they were facts. I looked around the classrooms and all the "kids" that had no idea of the real world. To them, their world was the self-serving crap that was coming from the profs. I've had my share of excellent professors, but they were sadly lacking two years ago.

The best one that I had was only a part-time prof. She was really a forensic psychologist (can you guess what I was class I was in?) who frequently worked as an expert witness for the defense in violent criminal cases. She worked on the defense team of one of the Texas Seven. She knew what I do for a living. Despite her job, she was very fair and would hear me out when I gave a dissenting opinion in her class.

I left that course feeling that we had a mutual respect for one another despite working on opposing sides of the courtroom. I'd still call her immediately if I needed her. I don't know if she'd remember me, but I fell comfortable enough with her to do this.

It was the other 90% that really got under my skin. Syd, I get the impression from your posts that you are not this way. I sincerely hope that this is the case.

[cbs42]

Our colleges should be balanced and should encourage all forms of cultural thinking, and political talk, and exploration should be open and free of programming. Sadly this is not the case in our schools.
Meh, when I go into a Software Development class, I'm not paying to hear what the professor has to say about middle-east politics.

Sure, I agree that lib-arts classes (and history/poly-sci classes in particular) need to have balance, but it's not the role of a university (in my opinion) to bathe every subject in politics -- regardless of whether it is balanced or not.

It seems I believe quite the opposite of what you're suggesting. I think that universities should keep cultural thinking and political talk completely out of the classroom, unless those subjects are the focal point of the class.

[ninthdoc]

it's not the role of a university (in my opinion) to bathe every subject in politics -- regardless of whether it is balanced or not.

I agree, and yet there is no one there to stop this from occuring.

I think that universities should keep cultural thinking and political talk completely out of the classroom, unless those subjects are the focal point of the class.

I agree again, however the problem is with the individual instructors, not the university at large.

[cbs42]

This is why I suspect that the liberal arts staff is different from the technical staff at a university. I can't recall a single prof in my tech classes who even uttered more than a casual passing comment about politics.

Now, when I got my English degree, that was a whole different crowd. Still, I heard more political ranting from my fellow students before and after class than I did from the professors.

Perhaps my school was unique in that regard.

[Buddy Lee]

Not all professors wear their political perspectives on their sleeves.

My senior year in college (the second time) I took a labor law class. To this day I don't know if the professor was pro-labor, pro-management, or what. He simply stated facts, and how the law had been and is being applied. He played devil's advocate and expressed neutrality. My friends and I never really figured out his true positions.

That is as it should be.

Buddy Lee

[skyknight]

I have had to come down on my daughters high school pretty hard, she has a couple of teachers, one ex peace corp with anti war statements and anti recruiting posters all over their rooms. This si her English and Math teacher mind you. One of my daughters projects was to listen to NPR and the final straw was when they invited a pair of antiwar veterans into the class to talk about evil America. My daughter was offended and asked why can't they also have those who support the war, they were told why would we bring people in here who support killing. :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: I promised the school publicity like they had never had before and the principal instantly scrambled and found some pro war veterans and has finally warned these teachers about expressing their opinions to my kids. The problem is this is my oldest, I stilll have four more to squeeze through this system. Oh man. :(
on a seperate note I was an enviromental science student and I did encounter some propaganda in college but at the time I was apolitical and I really did not care either way. After college I was a democrat because I am a big enviromental guy. After having children and serving under both Clinton and President Bush and having to start paying taxes my perspective changed again. I kinda grew up a bit.

[Buddy Lee]

That's okay Skykniight. You are forgiven.

Believe it or not I was a dyed-in-the-wool Democrate/liberal all through my early college years. I thought Reagan was a confused and senile old man who would surely lead us into an unnecessary war that would destroy all mankind in a hail of nuclear destruction. I grew up believing that the Democrates truly wanted to help the downtrodden and underprivelaged. I even held great respect for Jimmy Carter.

I might add that I held these ideas throughout my attendance at a conservative military college (North Georgia College, maybe you've heard of it). I bought into the liberal propaganda at the time, but soon discovered otherwise once I had to face reality.

Buddy Lee

[Agent Minivann]

Our colleges should be balanced and should encourage all forms of cultural thinking, and political talk, and exploration should be open and free of programming. Sadly this is not the case in our schools.

I agree completely. I have had one experience when the professor (philosophy and ethics) would often have class discussions that ranged all over the map. I would guess (a good educated guess) that he is a liberal/democrat, but he never let out hints of that in any of the class discussions. Any time a student stated a dissenting view (left, right, or otherwise) he would ask questions that made the student think logically. No one ideology was promoted, but intellegent discussion was rampant. It was a very nice experience, and I would audit a class from him again if I attended there (too many writing assignments for my liking). I think that experience is atypical however, and I think that is a problem.

[Sapper]

This was a great read. I agree with a few of you, you know who you are. I don't drink but if I did I would love to have a cold one with you.

There are also a few idiots who I don't agree with. The idiots don't know who they are because they are idiots.

EDIT: In honor of those with whom I agree, check out my sig!

EDIT: My sig shows up in my next post.

[skyknight]

When i originally posted this it was kind of to see if even on a subject like this the party lines would show themselves. For the most part they did. I find that kinda strange, that even in the face of such an evil person goin down we are still divided as a country. Kinda makes me sad.

Oh and Sapper :drunk:

[Codeman]

Skynight I agree with you and I too was surprised that " even in the face of such an evil person goin down we are still divided as a country. Kinda makes me sad". Interesting how our HS gaming group is divided ( kinda like our country ). I would like at least one of our HS players come home soon ( my middle son is with the 101st airborne in Irqa finishing his second tour! My youngest son in with the 10th mountin and will probably be deploying anytime now, he too plays HS ). As much as I want everyone home I know that is not possiable or wise to do... I do think progress is being made over there even if it's baby steps ...we are going the right direction and not backwards.

[shakey_snake]

Why shouldn't they hate us? Look at it from their perspective and tell me what you'd be doing. We have this big macho country come in, start bombing the place, blaming some guy that has nothing to do with the nation, but the US is looking for him for some attack. We shift our sites from the patsy, and capture the leader of our country. Then we send armed troops over all of our city streets to "protect" us. While creating choas, getting rough with civialians and other unspeakable acts. What are they suppose to think. Civilians don't know our side of it, they only know what they see. and to them (and some of us) we look like barbarians. IF that was done to us by another country...don't you think there would be protest and hatred toward the country that pulled that crap on us? You bet. There country is being kicked around and becoming a patsy because they have something we want. So we are using lame ass excuses to go over there and take control. While oil companies over here, reap record profits.I love people who think that this started 3 years ago.

[Grungebob]

When i originally posted this it was kind of to see if even on a subject like this the party lines would show themselves. For the most part they did. I find that kinda strange, that even in the face of such an evil person goin down we are still divided as a country. Kinda makes me sad.

Oh and Sapper :drunk:Well he was evil yes, but he commanded roughly 5% of the insurgents in Iraq so victory? debatable.

[skyknight]

I am not a hundred percent sure where you got the five percent number( NPR maybe :D , that was a joke) but even if it is true he still held the spotlight and was very much an icon to those who would do harm to our soldiers and the shiites in that area. Though he may have only commanded five percent if that is true, his influence was far greater. I do not neccesarily understand the knee jerk reaction many people have to this by downplaying it immediatley. I do believe many of you who are doing this, simply do it out of a loathing for President Bush. The same thing happened when Saddam was captured, "well he really had no power anyways" , probably true but it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Did you see our troops cheering when the President made his speech to the troops about takin down Zarqawi, they went pretty much nuts. Who do you want speakin to them, the President to get them fired up, or Kerry and Gore sayin, well you really did not accomplish that much in all reality. There are two sides using propaganda in this war. The insurgents are using propoganda against us, and many of our politicians are using propoganda against us. The only place this war can be lost is on the Beltway.

[Grungebob]

skyknight
Don't make assumptions about my political views simply because I am not cautious not to jump and cheer over this minor event. How is my reaction any more knee jerking than yours? I am simply stating that he was in command of about 150 insurgents, which is not that many in the overall scheme of things. There are still hundreds of thousands of insurgents that are continuing to operate as they have without his leadership. Furthermore his death has increased recruiting of new insurgents angered by his martyrdom. I am surprised that so many want to view this as some kind of end to hostilities, but I think that is folly no matter who you vote for. Those poor troops were probably cheering because they mistakenly assumed that this meant they are close to coming home. If Zarqawi was so great a leader then why was he sold out by his own people?

[skyknight]

No way is this the end of hostilities, not even close. You are correct on that one, as you have stated it may whip them into a frenzy, that is fine too. I used to have a friend who flew orange hueys in Vietnam, the whole point of this little excercise was to draw the Viet cong out. They would shoot and then the infantry would mop them up. It worked very well. Maybe this is what this is, Maybe the death of Zarqawi is an orange huey.
I was actually not talking about your party line as much as I was someothers though GB. Though by your own admission you are a pacifist. I do not say that word in a dirty way just so you know. I wish everyone had the luxury of being one.
He was not exactly sold out by his own people anyways, yes he was sold out by Iraqi's but for the most part the shiites hate him for what he has done. He was also sold out by the Jordanians for his savagery against his own people. If recruiting is up, which I do not know, then that is fine as well. I would rather fight this war on their streets instead of my home state of NY again. Believe it or not there are alot more of them dying than there are Americans. This just does not get presented on the news. This is not only because of the media but also because we as a nation do not want to be seen as inflicting massive casualties on another country, though we are, but we are also trying to win hearts and minds.
As far as Bush's talk, I do not believe those soldiers thought they were coming home. I talk to Iraq about once a day and no one I know has that disillusionment that Zarqawi's death is the end. They are mainly just glad he is dead as am I. Our troops are much smarter than that. This man deserved the death he got pure and simple. It is not a minor fact.
By the way GB nothing in this post is being typed in anger whatsoever, sometimes it is tough to understand peoples tones when they are typing. I find this an interesting debate and I am not in the least bit mad about it. Just thought I would add that for you and everyone else to know that. I like a good clean debate at times.

[Sapper]

Those poor troops were probably cheering because they mistakenly assumed that this meant they are close to coming home.
Always looking for the dark cloud that surrounds every silver lining? How reassuring that you think so highly of our troops. I can with almost 100% certainty say that our soldiers do not think they are coming home anytime soon. They understand why we are there and know they need to finish the mission.

[Grungebob]

My post is not in anger either. It was simply attempting to show you that you are making assumptions about others based upon how they receive the news of Zarqawi. Yes I mentioned that I am a pacifist and on a personal level I am. That doesn't mean that politically I am against keeping the peace at all costs. I see that value in some forms of military actions. When I wa sin the military I wanted to help serve my country and at the same time I wanted to be true to myself..... I was Hospital Corpsman line company with the 3rd Combat Engineer Battalion US Marines. I carried a medical bag but I was grungey too and qualified with every firearm I could. But still on a personal level I am a healer not a hurter.

[daevablacc]

I don't think any of us who are excited about his death are thinking this is victory. We're just celebrating a satisfying victory w/in the larger conflict. Just like football players who celebrate a touchdown know that wasn't the whole game, just part of it.

[Bannister]

I don't think any of us who are excited about his death are thinking this is victory. We're just celebrating a satisfying victory w/in the larger conflict. Just like football players who celebrate a touchdown know that wasn't the whole game, just part of it.

I think this is the difference. Some view it as a touchdown, while others view it as a first down. Both of which are good things but, touchdowns allow you to win games while first downs merely allow you to continue to play the field position game.

Bannister

[daevablacc]

Sure, I wrote that thinking that it was less than a touchdown. I was just using it as a loose example. First down or extra point or something. :)

[Bannister]

No offense meant to you daevalblacc.

:D

It just seems we have two schools of thought regarding this issue. The different schools of thought seem to be divided on the importance of Al-Zarqawi and his death.

I think Zarqawi was important as a figure head but not really that important to the amount of success we will have in Iraq. The people who supported he and his cause will continue to do so. The people who vilified he and his cause will continue to do so.

I also don't really see why it is a Bush / Democrat issue. Even if you view Zarqawi's death as an enormous triumph, I don't think W really had that much to do with it. I view it more as a victory for our intelligence agencies. Sure you could argue that W is president and is responsible for these agencies, but that would be like giving your boss credit everytime you come up with a great idea.

Bannister

[daevablacc]

It just seems we have two schools of thought regarding this issue. The different schools of thought seem to be divided on the importance of Al-Zarqawi and his death.
No offense taken. I guess I was just saying "HEY, WE GOT SOMETHING COOL DONE! LET'S CELEBRATE!" I think that most of us can agree on that. I personally have no clue how much it will help in the over-all conflict. I just like to see our boys and gals getting some success. Yeah, who cares about the politics, it's the soldiers who did this. :headbang:

[Agent Minivann]

I think that in the great scheme of things it shows the other side that we can get stuff done. We are able to find the ones that are leading and take them out. I think the bigger implication lies in the fact that this was not solely a US or US/British venture. This involved Iraqis starting to take control of their neighborhood.