Being a rules lawyer

[DoesntCompute]

I am a rules lawyer. I am not obsessive/compulsive about it. I am not obnoxious and in your face about it but I enjoy looking at the rules of a given game and finding cracks to be exploited. I find the current discussions of 'LOS for melee units' and 'Summoning a carrier' fascinating. The cards and rulebook define the physics of the HS universe. Why is it considered bad form to study the science of the game you are playing? It seems to me that most people dislike rules lawyers that are obnoxious because of their obnoxiousness not because of their rules lawyering.

[shakey_snake]

All rules lawyers need to be shot because they ignore major tenets of the game to make themselves look smart.

It's like arguing with 3 year olds.

[maxo-texas]

Use of the rules correctly is important.

Finding very wierd places where the rules are broken is obnoxious.

For example the "bug dance" in space hulk is a massive example of a broken rule that caught on even tho it is completely silly and makes it a lot harder on the marines (as if it wasn't hard enough).

For those who don't know the "bug dance"...

You can put your marine on "overwatch" and it automatically fires when something moves.

So the bug player moves a bug into LOS and then turns left and right repeatedly without moving until it dies or the marine's gun jams.

---

The first session we met in Houston, one of the players caught *several* ways that the rules had been misplayed (when pointed out- it was obvious in each case that the rule had been misread). This is not rules lawyering. This is correcting mistakes.

---

So yes - I want to play with the correct rules- but I want to play with the correct *spirit of the game* too.

[DoesntCompute]

All rules lawyers need to be shot because they ignore major tenets of the game to make themselves look smart.

It's like arguing with 3 year olds.

Explain Shakey. I disagree on first blush but I am curious to hear you expand on the thought. Is your definition of rules lawyer along the lines of, "An obnoxious person who will argue for any reason and just uses the rules of every game played as an excuse to beat you up."

To me, a rules lawyer is a person who tries to read and understand all aspects of the parameters of the game. IMO every poster on this site is a rules lawyer to some degree. We all are trying to understand the rules better because it makes us better players. I have learned many aspects of the game just by reading people's posts here. You don't have to be obnoxious to improve your understanding of the game.

[shakey_snake]

All rules lawyers need to be shot because they ignore major tenets of the game to make themselves look smart.

It's like arguing with 3 year olds.

Explain Shakey. there's no reason to explain. You already know what I'm talking about.

Quit being obnoxious.

[ultradoug]

so then there was this time that I picked up a rock and threw it into the air.

Upon reflection, that rock took 1,000 years or something to get there.
I bet if rocks could feel, it would be like, "Man... that was the best spot to."

I feel kinda bad for that rock. I felt worse when it landed on my head.

[DoesntCompute]

Finding very wierd places where the rules are broken is obnoxious.

I enjoy finding those weird places just because it is fun (like my Grandmother who was a retired English teacher liked to find mispellings in advertisements). Our group will discuss them and laugh at what using the loophole would look like and then go on with our game. Sometimes the quest to find the weird loopholes exposes legitimate aspects of the game that were previously unexplored. For example it may be possible that the designers intended Nilf to be able to break engagement for other units or for units to carry other units when summoned. Without someone asking the question, nobody would have ever discovered that aspect of the game.

[DoesntCompute]

All rules lawyers need to be shot because they ignore major tenets of the game to make themselves look smart.

It's like arguing with 3 year olds.

Explain Shakey. there's no reason to explain. You already know what I'm talking about.

Quit being obnoxious.

Edited to avoid flaming...

Wasn't trying to be obnoxious. I haven't encountered the people like you described and I was curious. End of comment.

[ultradoug]

All rules lawyers need to be shot because they ignore major tenets of the game to make themselves look smart.

It's like arguing with 3 year olds.

Explain Shakey. there's no reason to explain. You already know what I'm talking about.

Quit being obnoxious.

Edited to avoid flaming...

Wasn't trying to be obnoxious. I haven't encountered the people like you described and I was curious. End of comment.

I disagree you have to play test shakey and not just test him in your mind before you can give a good analises of how he plays. No playtesting is not good enough! I want you to mindtest and playtest him! Give good reasins about how shakey peforms or keep your shakey oppions to yourself!

[Celtic_Ghost]

Well this is a loaded question with a "no win" answer directive.

Reason: Simple. It's because although every game has its particular "physics" a.k.a game mechanics that dictate the basic function of that game, no game has enough rules to govern all of the possibilities that humans can conceive to imitate. Some games try to cover all the bases, but it is still a futile attempt. Now, since each person playing any given game has a specific IQ and personal perspective of "how it should work" then a LOT of common sense rules in a game are "misconstrued" to fit that specific individuals perspective. So, "rules lawyering" becomes a necessity on many occasions to help facilitate fair play and keep a game fun and moving.

Now, the downside to the "rules lawyer" is those that have weak social skills coupled with isolated mental psychosis yet a workable intelligence. These types like to use their "knowledge of the rules" to dominate their opponents or awe spectators for various reasons of satisfaction that stem from their lack of social tact. Sometimes they are funny, sometimes interesting, but most of the time just aggravating.

I think it makes the world an interesting place, and like I said, there is no solution for "How is the best way to interpret rules, Should we have rules lawyers, etc.?"

They really are pointless questions, but worthy of good discussion.

[DoesntCompute]

I disagree you have to play test shakey and not just test him in your mind before you can give a good analises of how he plays. No playtesting is not good enough! I want you to mindtest and playtest him! Give good reasins about how shakey peforms or keep your shakey oppions to yourself!

Huh?

[ultradoug]

The UD option - completely unrelated to the question <---
dont add this if you dont want me to do this next time.
now, do you want my serous thoughts on this issue?

[shakey_snake]

Dang Shakey way to make it personal. No I wasn't. But it takes a little reading comprehension to understand that. Which you seem to lack. Which is probably why rules lawyering is a passtime for you. (That was probably personal. So what.)
look at the context here:
Explain Shakey.
there's no reason to explain. You already know what I'm talking about.Quit being obnoxious.Is your definition of rules lawyer along the lines of, "An obnoxious person who will argue for any reason and just uses the rules of every game played as an excuse to beat you up."

So, what I'm saying is YOU ARE BEING AN OBNOXIOUS RULES LAyWER IN THIS VERY THREAD.
Lets look at a common rules lawyer pattern:

How to be a rules lawyer:
Step one: create a topic that will gather lots of attention.
example: Being a rules lawyer

Step two: create your own arbitrary definition of something
example: "To me, a rules lawyer is a person who tries to read and understand all aspects of the parameters of the game. IMO every poster on this site is a rules lawyer to some degree. We all are trying to understand the rules better because it makes us better players."

Step three: Respond to every conter point
example: "Explain Shakey. I disagree on first blush but I am curious to hear you expand on the thought. "

Step four : attempt to create pity to win people's attention to your side
example: "Dang Shakey way to make it personal.'


Step five: Whatever you do, Don't let the argument die! There can be NO resolution!
example: "To make it simple I don't know what you were referring to because I have not encountered people like that and I was curious about your experience."


If you don't feel like being civil then step off.Civility is a farce.


A rules lawyer is someone who wants debate more than resolution to draw attention to themselves. They are the blight of this community.
Don't believe me? go ask someone on BGG.

[ultradoug]

pwned!
thats exactly why i was pokeing fun at him for rull lawering above, i belive he was doing this to show off rull lawering?
also I'm just put off by the ultradoug option in the poll so I did not have any usefull feedback.
I've never had an issue with this person on this page before, this is a hot topic...
anyway... I forgive you... just please dont involve my name in polls like this its a bit over the line, I dont mind being poked fun at, but really...

[DoesntCompute]

Shakey - My first response was out of line which is why I edited it to remove the over the line portion of it. I was actually surprised by the heat of your response and responded in the heat of the moment. I attempted to contact you via PM to straighten it out. I am not sure what your problem is with me but this thread is not the place to hash it out. I will gladly work it out with you via PM if you are interested.

UD - Sorry. I didn't mean to offend. I thought the option in the poll was in line with the whacky humor you usually display on this board. I have seen you poke fun at yourself and thought you would appreciate it.

All - I was not attempting to be a troll, rules-lawyer, obnoxious jerk, or any other bad thing when I started this thread. I had been watching the "LOS" and "Summoning" threads and was fascinated. When someone brings up a quirky interpretation of the rules they are often labeled as being a rules lawyer even if their point has some merit. I find such discussions and quirks in the rules interesting and so in a semi-selfmocking manner labeled myself a rules lawyer.

[Malechi]

It seems to me that most people dislike rules lawyers that are obnoxious because of their obnoxiousness not because of their rules lawyering.

This is exactly the problem with the latest rash of Rule Lawyering. Note that I have never stated that someone is a Rule Lawyer in any of the recent debates, only that many posters are Rule Lawyering.

In any game as in real life, there is good and bad in everything. I feel those good Rule Lawyers out there are getting a bad rep from those that persist in Rule Laywering.

I am a Rules Lawyer. Every gaming group needs one.

Rule Lawyering is the act of finding loopholes to act in your advantage when the intention of the rules will not allow you to do so. Those that participate in Rule Lawyering tend to be loud and repetitive in their arguments as their basis for their dispute stems from the use of a single word.

• A good Rule Lawyer understands the rules, usually has them memorized and can find the reference material no matter how obscure.

• Rule Lawyering is finding a problem in the rules and instead of attempting solve it, the foundation for argument is set and will not stop until told they are wrong by the designer.

• A good Rule Lawyer can find the loopholes, but he knows they are a loophole and not the intention of the game.

• Rule Lawyering is exploiting the loopholes found.

• A good Rule Lawyer will not fight his cause into the ground after exposing the inconsistency in the rules after he has made his point.

• The Rule Lawyering on this board lately has come down to misinterpreting the English language and removing sentences from their initial context.

[ultradoug]

No Malechi! Rull lawering is when you find a loop hole and exploit it so that you can win the game! If you disagree with me your wrong!

Ok I really nead to deside if I'm going to make fun of this topic or be usefull....

[Malechi]

No Malechi! Rull lawering is when you find a loop hole and exploit it so that you can win the game! If you disagree with me your wrong!

Most Rule Lawyering has nothing to do with winning the game. It has more to do with the percieved power one gains because they feel they beat the designers.

Where is the Ignore UltraDoug button?

[Rÿchean]

I have been accused of rules lawyering on more than one occasion just for making sure LOS and Two-space movement rules are met.

I think it is in the mind of the beholder on whether or not you are rules lawyering.

Personally, I like being known as some one that knows the rules and the FAQ off the top of my head in the gaming circles I play in. However I do not like being accused of being too anal or uptight for pointing out that that move or action was in violation of the rules.

I didn’t vote.

[Nooblar]

DC, I have no idea why Shakey went all psycho on you, but I can completely identify with your point of view. I voted the "sometimes" option because while the spirit of the game takes precedence, it can ruin the spirit to lose because of ignorance of rules or undetected cheating. Rules lawyers have a knack for spotting such things.

I also agree that there are good and bad rules lawyers. Every gaming group needs a good one, and every gaming group needs to evict a bad one.

[Oprime]

Im only responding because the LOS/Melee thread was specifically mentioned.

FYI, I only possed a question because the situation presented itself in a game (opponent wanted to hide johnny behind Nilf)

I dont think a possible stratagy (provide cover for weaker, smaller units)is a loophole.

I had no idea it would explode into a 10+ page of debate.

Where DO you draw the line between rule lawyering and genuine clarity of the rules.

I am not a rules lawyer but I think it is proper to debate them sometimes.

[Malechi]

... Personally, I like being known as some one that knows the rules and the FAQ off the top of my head in the gaming circles I play in. However I do not like being accused of being too anal or uptight for pointing out that that move or action was in violation of the rules...

It's a blessing ... and a curse.
Adrian Monk

[reapersaurus]

All rules lawyers need to be shot because they ignore major tenets of the game to make themselves look smart.

It's like arguing with 3 year olds.

Explain Shakey. I disagree on first blush but I am curious to hear you expand on the thought. Is your definition of rules lawyer along the lines of, "An obnoxious person who will argue for any reason and just uses the rules of every game played as an excuse to beat you up."

To me, a rules lawyer is a person who tries to read and understand all aspects of the parameters of the game. IMO every poster on this site is a rules lawyer to some degree. We all are trying to understand the rules better because it makes us better players. I have learned many aspects of the game just by reading people's posts here. You don't have to be obnoxious to improve your understanding of the game.While I understand your approach, you must realize that you are using a shared language of English and gamer terms here.

And in typical gamer terminology, a rules lawyer is someone who not only knows the rules, but uses them to absurd levels intedned to unfairly advantage THEM, by effectively making up ambiguities in the rules, mainly by picking at the English language until it falls apart.

Thereisa NOTHING admirable about doing that.

You may be wanting to use a slightly different term - called a "power gamer" in RPG circles, they are people who use their rules knowledge to benefit themselves, and many times, the GM or other players.

[ultradoug]

I have been accused of rules lawyering on more than one occasion just for making sure LOS and Two-space movement rules are met.

I think it is in the mind of the beholder on whether or not you are rules lawyering.

Personally, I like being known as some one that knows the rules and the FAQ off the top of my head in the gaming circles I play in. However I do not like being accused of being too anal or uptight for pointing out that that move or action was in violation of the rules.

I didn’t vote.

we dont really debate rulls in our epic games too much, most the time we get along fine, only sometimes you guys start mumbleing things and what not. I hope to win the next event.

Malaci cant ingore me cuss hes an admin :D lolz.

Well I think this was a good debate or something but I'm tired now zzzzzz.

*watches ripple effect*

[reapersaurus]

I have been accused of rules lawyering on more than one occasion just for making sure LOS and Two-space movement rules are met.

I think it is in the mind of the beholder on whether or not you are rules lawyering.

Personally, I like being known as some one that knows the rules and the FAQ off the top of my head in the gaming circles I play in. However I do not like being accused of being too anal or uptight for pointing out that that move or action was in violation of the rules.

I didn’t vote.

we dont really debate rulls in our epic games too much, most the time we get along fine, only sometimes you guys start mumbleing things and what not. I hope to win the next event.

Malaci cant ingore me cuss hes an admin :D lolz.

Well I think this was a good debate or something but I'm tired now zzzzzz.

*watches ripple effect*Dude!! look what just popped up!

Wave 1 booster, you are miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine!
Muah ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!! :twisted:

[shakey_snake]

epic

bah!

[Miniature Geek]

Rules lawyers suck. Following correct rules is one thing, finding a stupid loophole is another.

D&D is full of stupid crap that leads to far too many loopholes, (thus the reason I decided to switch to Palladium for my roleplaying games) and dealing with people who are too smart for their own good, it just makes me want to kill them.

[CornPuff]

The evil is what I like to call exploiting. Malechi seems to call this "Rules Lawyering" and reaper accurately points out this is what "power gamers" do in RPG circles. In most cases, this is pretty dispicable IMHO.

My simple solution is not to play with exploiters. This is not possible at tournaments, or on the internet in online games.

For Heroscape, I think everyone needs to be aware of these loopholes, so we can shut them ourselves. In tournaments, we need to have 'house rules' that patch these holes if they are deemed disruptive to the game. I don't think the summon-carry or Nilf-block are too crazy, but one of the best ways to resolve conflicts around these issues is to have a clear stance on them before they occur. Hence the need to explore loopholes on this site.

The positive side of rules lawyering is just knowing the rules to enhance enjoyment and fairness in the game. (edit, I don't mean rules lawyering int the Malechi sense of the word.)

I didnt vote either.

[Doc_Savage]

I think that is important to understand the rules and play by them as best you can.

It had never occured to me that you might be able to summon a carrying figure and the figure they are carrying. But the inconsistancies in the language make me question the designers intent.

If someone wanted to do that in a game and someone else thought that was crazy, the designers put in a rule - roll for it.

I don't consider myself a rules lawyer at all. I played a lot of MTG and I never came close to figuring out or using any of the continuous loops or other arcane uses of obscure rules.

[TheRealQ]

I'm with you CornPuff and Doc. I know some people would call me a Rules Lawyer but I prefer the title of Rules Advocate. If I see something questionable I like to point it out and in fairness I post it so that everyone has the opportunity to put in their say. In an actual game I would never play in a method that was intentionally questionable. To me this is what a Rules Lawyer is.

I have been a tournament judge for D&D and Magic the Gathering and have had to make spot rulings. I made mistakes but fortunately with D&D the rules are flexible and with MtG there is an extensive rulebook covering almost every situation. Even in these situations there would be an occasion that a quorum of 3 judges would be called to set a ruling. It can be chaotic when dealing with the English language.

Therein lies the foundation of most rule discrepancies. Everyone has a different level of reading comprehension. In addition to this many words have definitions that defer from commonly understood conceptions of what the word means. Two people can read the same thing and see completely opposite messages.

In these situations I don't like to blame the person as much as I lie blame with the wording of said rule. This is why I like clear and concise language to be used. Using euphemisms and slang in conversation is a hinderance to communication.

As for myself I was lead to believe that a major boon to this online community was the interaction that I would normally have with the other judges if I were at a tournament. If that is to be titled Rules Lawyering then so be it. If such is the case then I believe this is the site to do it. It is not appropriate to wait till you are at the table to question something that has been brewing in your head for some time. It distracts from the game and hinders enjoyment.

[RichardD]

Knowing the rules and pointing the out when other players look like they've forgotten one is more akin to being a referree (albeit one who may not be impartial); there's nothing wrong with knowing the rules, and nothing wrong with requiring that the players stick to them.

Whereas "rules lawyering" (I hate that term, BTW) is using an intimate knowledge of those rules, particularly interpretations that might be valid for one case but were never meant to have universal application, in order to obtain an unfair advantage over your opponents. In real life, lawyers don't get to do this anything like as much as the TV would have you belive (because the judge is usually there to prevent the lawyers from twisting the law in knots), so the slimiest sorts of behaviour tends to be confined to gaming.

[caravaggio]

i can make it really simple.

do you want to know why you cant summon brunak to carry someone else blah blah blah...?

cos that's something my brother would do... and my brother is a bastard. (this is why i refuse to play games with him.)

you don't want to be a bastard do you?

[Agent Minivann]

The question I have for doesn'tcompute is are you a rules lawyer in the sense of exploiting rules to gain a questionable advantage, or do you just look for loopholes because you get a kick out of it?

The example of looking for misspellings in ads is interesting. I don't go out of my way to find misspellings, but I do get a kick out of it when I see it. In that sense, I can see looking for the loopholes. I can appreciate the guy that says "hey guys, get a load of this", he explains the loophole, and everyone laughs. The guy that finds the loophole and then tries to use it on you in a game is a prick.

[Revdyer]

Ancient saying: "The finer the net is woven, the more holes there are in it."

[DoesntCompute]

I get a kick out of finding the loopholes and alternate ways of playing. When I or the other members of my group find something odd, we share it with everyone. We laugh, discuss whether it is valid, and decide if we want to use the loophole and then play the game. Usually the loopholes are so obscure that they never come up in the game but if a situation does come up and one of us uses the loophole, they usually get style points for creativity. I don't think I look for slimy advantages because I don't use loopholes without sharing with my group that the loophole exists so we can all use it if we choose.

[netherspirit]

All this Rules Lawyer name call is getting kind of annyoning. I mean the other day a member asked a question about Roads, because he didn't understand, and atleast 2 members jumped on him calling him a rules laywer...:(

[Rÿchean]

Don't be trying to rules lawyer the art of accusing one of rules lawyering.

[shakey_snake]

Just to be fair, I didn't calling the OP a rules lawyer in that thread.

I was saying, "Here is the answer. No one else post here, because if an answer that is easy turms into a rules lawyering thread I'm going to be kicking someone's ass".

[daevablacc]

Don't be trying to rules lawyer the art of accusing one of rules lawyering.
:rofl:
*presses Shakey Snake's' Ignore button*

[shakey_snake]

*smacks daevablacc in the head with a trout*
:wink:

[reapersaurus]

All this Rules Lawyer name call is getting kind of annyoning. I mean the other day a member asked a question about Roads, because he didn't understand, and atleast 2 members jumped on him calling him a rules laywer...:(I'd also like to clarify something that was missed in that thread:

My mention of "obvious rules lawyering" was not calling the OP a rules lawyer:
In fact, my response was more in reply to Teamski saying it was a valid and good question.
That entire acceptance of indulging ridiculously-obvious rules questions is the path to the dark side, people - towards rules lawyering.
It is SO obvious in this game that the SIDE of the hex that you have to move up has no terrain effects whatsoever, yet 2 longtime members (at least) said it was a good question.
By going down that road (of throwing everything you know about a game out the window, and trying to focus on the minutia of the deeper/hidden meanings of the rules text) we are CHOOSING to fall into the abyss of rules lawyering with HS.

And I, for one, will fight that tooth and nail, since as I have said from way back on .net - Heroscape is not the kind of game who's spirit of fun and kidlike play/competetition can survive a rules lawyering mentality. It is not Magic:tG or D&D.

[Teamski]

All rules lawyers need to be shot because they ignore major tenets of the game to make themselves look smart.

It's like arguing with 3 year olds.

I completely concur!!

And Reaper, I don't need any sort chastising by you on this subject......

-Ski

[Bannister]

Different game, interesting comments.


"...Above all, watch out for the player that makes the first accusation of rules lawyer. In most cases, *he* is the immature one, acting out of frustration and anger more than a sincere desire to learn the rules. By doing this he is trying to intimidate you into acquiescing. You are not going to change him. Finish out the game but avoid wasting your time with him again...."


http://www.isomedia.com/homes/delwood/ASLRulesLawyer.html

Bannister

[truth]

We used to play with a "rules lawyer". We don't anymore. It is my experience that when playing with other players who understand the rules and the spirit of the rules and is willing to bow down to a group consensus on any loop holes that might present themselves is a good person to play with. The guy who shouts: "You removed your hand from the piece and so your turn is over." Is a jerk and is clearly not there to have fun, but to win at any cost. He can go find other jerks to play with as far as I'm concerned because he's not welcome at my table.

[LilNewbie]

We used to play with a "rules lawyer". We don't anymore. It is my experience that when playing with other players who understand the rules and the spirit of the rules and is willing to bow down to a group consensus on any loop holes that might present themselves is a good person to play with. The guy who shouts: "You removed your hand from the piece and so your turn is over." Is a jerk and is clearly not there to have fun, but to win at any cost. He can go find other jerks to play with as far as I'm concerned because he's not welcome at my table.

Amen and Amen!

Newb.

[Bannister]

I agree 100% with you truth. That guy was an ass and as such wouldn't be reinvited to my table either.

But I think that is different than what is being done on this site. I see guys examing the rules to try and determine the spirit of the rule and to try and exploit any competitive advantage a rule or a combination of certain rules might give them. This is being done on a discussion forum, on a fan site for the game and not at the table.

I have no problem at all with guys having these discussion (Can you summon a carrier?). Why can't these discussions be had here to try and bounce ideas (yes sometimes radical ideas) off people who know and love the game, without having those leading the discussion immediately being labeled a "rules lawyer" for trying to push the boundries?

Bannister

[cbs42]

DC, as you've seen "rules lawyer" is a very loaded phrase, and not a particularly positive one in the eyes of most gamers. I think you unintentionally set yourself up for a pounding with this topic. As Reaper suggested, you might want to find another word to describe your exploration of rulesets.

I get a kick out of finding the loopholes and alternate ways of playing.

I totally agree with this statement. Such a curious nature is the mark of a budding designer. You should feed this interest with those of similar mindsets -- such as the gaming group you described. I have an interest in rules exploration as well, and am fascinated by many of the same things that seem to interest you, but you really do need to find another term to describe it.
:D

[Buddy Lee]

This thread begs the question:

Where's MrZuck ?

Buddy Lee

[DoesntCompute]

Bannister knock it off. I'm not used to agreeing with you and it is messing with my perception of reality.

[Bannister]

Bannister knock it off. I'm not used to agreeing with you and it is messing with my perception of reality.

Sorry, I didn't mean to create a tear in the space-time continuum.

:D

Hey, wait, do we disagre???

Bannister