ArgosCap
February 12th, 2007, 03:11 AM
Okay, maybe we should discuss our thoughts on why we think Marvel will or will not be compatible with Heroscape. There seem to be some folks out there who are sticking with a statement Craig made a year ago, and they remain convinced that Marvel Legends and Heroscape are not meant to be played together. These individuals do not want to discuss Marvelscape in the same terms as Heroscape. For some of us, the recent pictures seem to contradict the assessment that the games are really that different from one another.
What has been said: Craig did in fact say, way back at GenCon, when the game was still being developed, that it was not recommended that you mix the two games. However, in the recent podcast, he suggested that the real reason you would not want to mix the games is because it would take 20 Heroscape units to challenge one powerful Marvel character (Hulk). Craig has also said expressly, that EVERY effort was made to balance the Marvel characters with existing Heroscape characters. Did anyone miss that part?
What we know: We know that the characters in the Marvel game have the exact same type of stats and abilities as normal heroscape characters, and use the same kind of dice, turn markers and terrain. If the characters are built with compatible abilities (and Iron Man's abilities are all compatible), then the only question is how were the Marvel characters costed in relationship to Heroscape characters. We know that some effort was made to keep costing consistent. Looking at Iron Man's stats, it seems pretty clear that he was priced in a way that makes him quite balanced with existing Heroscape characters. His stats and abilities put him on pretty equal footing with other characters hovering around 220 points. Also, we know that the Marvel product is clearly marked with the Heroscape logo, and the press release seems to suggest the games are compatible.
What we don't know: Are the other Marvel characters equally balanced with Heroscape characters? Hard to say, but personally, I have faith that they are. If one of the characters in the game is, then the rest are probably on the same scale with him.
THE CHALLENGE: To identify how and why the games might be different.
SUBJECT #1 - MARVEL RULE VARIANTS: It is quite likely that the Marvel game has some different rules than traditional heroscape. The breakaway wall probably has special rules. There may be rules for knockback. Craig has said that the glyphs add an element that give the game more of a "Super Hero" feel.
Analysis: These rules do not necissarily change how the characters were priced, and certainly don't seem to effect Iron Man. Breakaway wall rules are certain to be similar to the castle gate rules (which don't effect costing). Glyphs don't seem to significantly effect costing either, since anyone can use them. If a character in Marvel was reliant on knockback, that COULD potentially effect costing, but it is not likely to have a significant effect on any character's gameplay. It could though, especially near hazardous terrain like Lava. Otherwise knockback rules are likely to be just another optional rule that anyone (including traditional Heroscape characters) can use. It would most likely be scaled to the amount of damage a character can do, so a charactrer capable of doing a lot of knowckback is already paying for their high attack value.
SUBJECT #2 - RELATIONSHIPS AND SYNERGY: Could the relationships between characters signifcantly effect character costing? For example, none of the Marvel characters will benefit from any of the flagbearers, because they don't belong to any of those factions.
Analysis: First of all, I think it would be a mistake to think that the characters in the Marvel set were only play tested against each other, especially when Craig said they were playtested with existing Heroscape characters. It wouldn't make sense to play test the Marvel characters only against themselves, because there are only ten characters, and there are likely to be a lot of expansions with a wide variety of characters, including human squads like the ones in traditional Heroscape. Besides, why create a whole new power hierarchy, when you already have an established system! I imagine that the designers used the existing Heroscape power hierarchy to figure out where the Marvel heroes belonged.
Also, because Marvel was playtested with traditional Heroscape, there may be some accounting for the traditional Heroscape synergies already. More importantly however, I think it's important to consider the design process. When the Izumi samurai in the master set were originally costed, did any of the designers really know what kind of synergies they might be aided by? Did they already have the Samurai falgbearer's abilities in mind? Probably not! I would venture a guess, that characters are not priced by what synergies they may have in the future. I would guess that synergy is added to the point cost of the character that provides it, when that character is created, not to the characters that benefit from it. Because characters may eventually benefit from all sorts of unpredictable synergies. I think a unit like the wolves probably get a direct boost in point cost when they have a direct relationship with a character like Khomuset (from the same set, or pre-existing), but otherwise, it would be too hard to guess where a character will receive a boost. Therefore, I don't buy the argument that potential synergies add to the point cost of any character, but the one providing it.
Also, some Marvel characters may benefit from Heroscape synergies. For example, Spider Man has a "tricky" personality, same as Agent Carr! They might benefit from the same thing!
Marvel will undoubtedly have its own synergies in the future, and most will be similar to existing Heroscape synergies. There are only so many benefits that can be given. Add a defense die, add an attack die, gain 2 speed. The only difference for Iron Man, is that he will have "Genius" as a requirement, instead of "Knight" or "Sentinel."
My conclusion is that the games may have some different rules, but the characters are probably very, very compatible. So, those are my thoughts on costing and compatibility! What do ya'll think?
What has been said: Craig did in fact say, way back at GenCon, when the game was still being developed, that it was not recommended that you mix the two games. However, in the recent podcast, he suggested that the real reason you would not want to mix the games is because it would take 20 Heroscape units to challenge one powerful Marvel character (Hulk). Craig has also said expressly, that EVERY effort was made to balance the Marvel characters with existing Heroscape characters. Did anyone miss that part?
What we know: We know that the characters in the Marvel game have the exact same type of stats and abilities as normal heroscape characters, and use the same kind of dice, turn markers and terrain. If the characters are built with compatible abilities (and Iron Man's abilities are all compatible), then the only question is how were the Marvel characters costed in relationship to Heroscape characters. We know that some effort was made to keep costing consistent. Looking at Iron Man's stats, it seems pretty clear that he was priced in a way that makes him quite balanced with existing Heroscape characters. His stats and abilities put him on pretty equal footing with other characters hovering around 220 points. Also, we know that the Marvel product is clearly marked with the Heroscape logo, and the press release seems to suggest the games are compatible.
What we don't know: Are the other Marvel characters equally balanced with Heroscape characters? Hard to say, but personally, I have faith that they are. If one of the characters in the game is, then the rest are probably on the same scale with him.
THE CHALLENGE: To identify how and why the games might be different.
SUBJECT #1 - MARVEL RULE VARIANTS: It is quite likely that the Marvel game has some different rules than traditional heroscape. The breakaway wall probably has special rules. There may be rules for knockback. Craig has said that the glyphs add an element that give the game more of a "Super Hero" feel.
Analysis: These rules do not necissarily change how the characters were priced, and certainly don't seem to effect Iron Man. Breakaway wall rules are certain to be similar to the castle gate rules (which don't effect costing). Glyphs don't seem to significantly effect costing either, since anyone can use them. If a character in Marvel was reliant on knockback, that COULD potentially effect costing, but it is not likely to have a significant effect on any character's gameplay. It could though, especially near hazardous terrain like Lava. Otherwise knockback rules are likely to be just another optional rule that anyone (including traditional Heroscape characters) can use. It would most likely be scaled to the amount of damage a character can do, so a charactrer capable of doing a lot of knowckback is already paying for their high attack value.
SUBJECT #2 - RELATIONSHIPS AND SYNERGY: Could the relationships between characters signifcantly effect character costing? For example, none of the Marvel characters will benefit from any of the flagbearers, because they don't belong to any of those factions.
Analysis: First of all, I think it would be a mistake to think that the characters in the Marvel set were only play tested against each other, especially when Craig said they were playtested with existing Heroscape characters. It wouldn't make sense to play test the Marvel characters only against themselves, because there are only ten characters, and there are likely to be a lot of expansions with a wide variety of characters, including human squads like the ones in traditional Heroscape. Besides, why create a whole new power hierarchy, when you already have an established system! I imagine that the designers used the existing Heroscape power hierarchy to figure out where the Marvel heroes belonged.
Also, because Marvel was playtested with traditional Heroscape, there may be some accounting for the traditional Heroscape synergies already. More importantly however, I think it's important to consider the design process. When the Izumi samurai in the master set were originally costed, did any of the designers really know what kind of synergies they might be aided by? Did they already have the Samurai falgbearer's abilities in mind? Probably not! I would venture a guess, that characters are not priced by what synergies they may have in the future. I would guess that synergy is added to the point cost of the character that provides it, when that character is created, not to the characters that benefit from it. Because characters may eventually benefit from all sorts of unpredictable synergies. I think a unit like the wolves probably get a direct boost in point cost when they have a direct relationship with a character like Khomuset (from the same set, or pre-existing), but otherwise, it would be too hard to guess where a character will receive a boost. Therefore, I don't buy the argument that potential synergies add to the point cost of any character, but the one providing it.
Also, some Marvel characters may benefit from Heroscape synergies. For example, Spider Man has a "tricky" personality, same as Agent Carr! They might benefit from the same thing!
Marvel will undoubtedly have its own synergies in the future, and most will be similar to existing Heroscape synergies. There are only so many benefits that can be given. Add a defense die, add an attack die, gain 2 speed. The only difference for Iron Man, is that he will have "Genius" as a requirement, instead of "Knight" or "Sentinel."
My conclusion is that the games may have some different rules, but the characters are probably very, very compatible. So, those are my thoughts on costing and compatibility! What do ya'll think?