Truth's Custom Units - Revisting and Revamping

[truth]

VALENTELA

BIO:
The more sentimental of the elvish twins, Valentela responded to the grievous situation she went through with Ralentar in a slightly different, though no less aggressive manner. Well knowing the vulnerability of an archer in close combat, she honed her abilities with the short sword, choosing to serve as bodyguard and distraction while her brother picked off enemies from afar. No less dangerous than her brother once within striking distance, she compensates for her lack of effectiveness at range by carrying a blade in each hand, so as to cut down the foe with doubled swiftness, as well as studying the art of parrying in such depth that she would not compromise her defense due to the lack of a shield. While her brother seemed consumed with eliminating the enemy, Valentela always retained a more balanced view of the world, and is quick to defend or evoke the bond between them as a way to keep her brother from devolving into an obsessive, sniping crusader. Despite her relatively greater sentimentality, she takes her duties no less seriously than her brother, and indeed, in some ways she is stronger. For as the saying goes, while the oak may crash in a strong storm, a reed will bend without breaking.

Bio written by: Karkadinn

CARD:
http://www.heroscapers.com/oldgallery/albums/userpics/10001/Valentela_copy.jpg

FIGURE:
Mage Knight Freeholder Sorceress (http://gamingetc.safeshopper.com/1322/12314.htm?591) $1.79

BELRAK
http://www.heroscapers.com/oldgallery/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Belrak_pic.jpg
http://www.heroscapers.com/oldgallery/albums/userpics/10001/Belrak.jpg
My newest creation is up for grabs as a prize at the ohio tourney. I found this guy in a box of mage knight stuff and instantly knew it would be perfect for an orc. The dino type thing he was riding on was brown, the orc's face was grey, the armor was silver, he had a tiny little axe so I modded it onto a spare viking spear to make it something usable from a mount. Basically the entire thing is repainted so the colors fit in with the existing orcs. The dino color came out a little too blue, but its not too bad.

RAPTORIAN ARCHERS

Another team up with GB reveals the next eveloution in the Raptorians. As I mentioned before I picture this race having very diffrent looks, like under the raptorian species are diffrent sub-species.

CARDS:
http://www.screamingtruth.com/photos/albums/userpics/10001/Talon_Archers.jpg
http://www.screamingtruth.com/photos/albums/userpics/10001/Falcor.jpg

FIGURES: Crocodile Games - Aegyptus - Heru Archer-WGE-014a (http://www.crocodilegames.com/secure/item_details.asp?CatID=24&SubID=24&Page=8&pageHeading=Items%20-%20Miniatures%20-%20Aegyptus), Heru Archer-WGE-014b (http://www.crocodilegames.com/secure/item_details.asp?CatID=24&SubID=24&Page=9&pageHeading=Items%20-%20Miniatures%20-%20Aegyptus), Heru Archer - WGE-014c (http://www.crocodilegames.com/secure/item_details.asp?CatID=24&SubID=24&Page=10&pageHeading=Items%20-%20Miniatures%20-%20Aegyptus), and Heru Archer Capitan-WGE-314a (http://www.crocodilegames.com/secure/item_details.asp?CatID=24&SubID=24&Page=20&pageHeading=Items%20-%20Miniatures%20-%20Aegyptus).


RAPTORIAN SCAVANGERS

A New Colloborative effort from Grungebob and Myself:
I came up with the idea of developing this race of "Raptorians" mentioned to have enslaved the Venocs in the offical bios. I collabo'd with GB on it and they ended up developing into these scavanger types. The hardest part was finding the minis, and I actually broke my own rules in choosing these minis. usually I won't use minis that aren't pre-painted, but these aren't highly expensive like Rackham mini's So at least they got that going for them ;). So for those who may want to put fort the investment of painting some minis I bring you Vultar and the Carrion Warriors:

CARDS:

http://www.screamingtruth.com/photos/albums/userpics/10001/Vultar.jpg
http://www.screamingtruth.com/photos/albums/userpics/10001/Carrion_Warriors.jpg

FIGURES: Crocoidile Games - Aegyptus - Nekharu Warrior -WGE-006a (http://www.crocodilegames.com/secure/item_details.asp?CatID=24&SubID=35&Page=1&pageHeading=Items%20-%20Miniatures%20-%20Aegyptus), Nekharu Warrior - WGE-006b (http://www.crocodilegames.com/secure/item_details.asp?CatID=24&SubID=35&Page=2&pageHeading=Items%20-%20Miniatures%20-%20Aegyptus), Nekharu Warrior - WGE-006c (http://www.crocodilegames.com/secure/item_details.asp?CatID=24&SubID=35&Page=3&pageHeading=Items%20-%20Miniatures%20-%20Aegyptus), Nekharu Warrior - WGE-006d (http://www.crocodilegames.com/secure/item_details.asp?CatID=24&SubID=35&Page=4&pageHeading=Items%20-%20Miniatures%20-%20Aegyptus), and Nekharu Hero - WGE-117 (http://www.crocodilegames.com/secure/item_details.asp?CatID=24&SubID=35&Page=11&pageHeading=Items%20-%20Miniatures%20-%20Aegyptus).
The warriors are 3 bucks a piece and the Heros is 6 bucks.

ARUKAR THE MIGHTY

BIO: Hailing from a world struck by war of devastatingly cataclysmic proportions, Arukar learned to survive by intimidating those weaker than him and impressing those few stronger. He wandered the broken, barren wastes of his home with no one to depend on but himself, and consequently developed a dog eat dog mentality, scavenging everything of use, but never so much that it would slow him down. Even in Valhalla, he prefers to eschew most armor, instead electing to inspire awe and fear by charging into battle half-naked, showing off his spectacular musculature. Made almost ridiculous rugged by surviving the toxins and other inhospitable traits of his native environment, Arukar now serves Einar, and though he tends to despise strict military form and routine, he is not without his skill or wit, for he learns quickly from each battle and adapts to the physiologies and strategies of his foes, and with a few kills to work his bloodlust and knowledge of the enemy up, he can proceed to shred through the remainder like a scythe through wheat.

CARD:
http://www.screamingtruth.com/photos/albums/userpics/10001/Arukar_the_Mighty_copy.jpg

FIGURE: Mage Knight Baran Skullcracker (http://gamingetc.safeshopper.com/1661/17091.htm?128) $1.99

Bio written by: Karkadinn

SorGwen

Bio
Member of a race with infinite scorn for all outsiders, SorGwen was notable not only for being an exceptionally powerful mage, but for being unusually amiable and cooperative with all shapes and sizes of beings. He quickly gained a reputation for doing whatever was necessary to achieve his goals, which led to him being simultaneously scorned and admired by his people. Only Vydar, scrying upon SorGwen from Valhalla, was able to discern the truth: the mage was even more practical and ruthless than any of his fellows suspected, as he simply took control over the minds of those who refused to give in to his diplomatic words, and then relinquished control subtly when done, leaving his victims confused and disoriented but unknowing of how they had been abused. Admiring such a crafty wizard who didn't let his pride get the better of him as most spell-users did, Vydar called him into his ranks, and SorGwen has been content to serve ever since, aiding in battle through puppetry of the highest order. It is rumored that Ne-Gok-Sa has a grudge against SorGwen, and would greatly relish the chance to personally slay the physically weaker sworg mage in battle.

Card
http://www.screamingtruth.com/photos/albums/userpics/10001/SorGwen_copy.jpg

Figure
D&D minis: #38 Shuluth, Archvillain

Other Info
Grungebob helped out with this one. :)

For more of my cards visit my website: www.screamingtruth.com

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[Doc_Savage]

Truth comes out of the gate with the controversial Mind Bubble Master, Sorgwen!

My only thought is that on Manipulate, you say, "Instead of taking a turn with Sorgwen, you may first take a turn with one figure that you have placed a Bubble Marker on."

Shouldn't that just be, "Instead of taking a turn with Sorgwen, you may take a turn with one figure that you have placed a Bubble Marker on."

To me, the "first" is confusing and maybe a left over from when this was more of a bonding power.

Great to see you start a thread here, Truth

[truth]

Truth comes out of the gate with the controversial Mind Bubble Master, Sorgwen!

My only thought is that on Manipulate, you say, "Instead of taking a turn with Sorgwen, you may first take a turn with one figure that you have placed a Bubble Marker on."

Shouldn't that just be, "Instead of taking a turn with Sorgwen, you may take a turn with one figure that you have placed a Bubble Marker on."

To me, the "first" is confusing and maybe a left over from when this was more of a bonding power.

Great to see you start a thread here, Truth

Yeah your right, small missed remnant. Fixing now.

[ChaosChild]

Shiny!

Not too powerful (I think 3 is the right number of markers), throws in some strategy and extra options, well thought out. Even though he is not a powerhouse, he has an ability that you just want try out (like Sudema's). I'd definately play with this guy.

[Fallen Templar]

Bravo Truth. I think I may be searching ebay for the fig. Any fig with a bubble power is worth a try in my book

[Grungebob]

The big questions will be:

Is his points cost correct?
Is 16 the best target number for bubbling an opponent?

Playtesting will help in these areas. It will be hard to pinpoint the exact amount of mayhem that a guy can do with the bubble thing. Truth is still torn when it comes to this guys abilities. See if you have order markers on Sorgwen and you successfully bubble somebody, then the next time you activate him you are forced to chose between activating him and attempting to bubble somebody, or activating a previously bubbled figure and not getting a chance to bubble another this turn. In my opinion choices are what make up a game. Whenever a player is forced to make tough choices, you have a good mechanic at work. But, I would love to hear others insights on this unit.

[reapersaurus]

In my opinion choices are what make up a game. Whenever a player is forced to make tough choices, you have a good mechanic at work. But, I would love to hear others insights on this unit.I agree, choices make up a game.

And now I remember what my issue with this unit was:
He does BOTH - dominates friendly AND unfriendly heros.

What this does is 2 VERY different things:
1) allows your side to effectively have the risk from wasted Order MArkers (when a hero is killed with an unused Marker on it) to be removed or dcreased substatially. This would be great, and quite strategic and a welcome addition to HS strategy/gameplay if that's all he did.

2) Take over multiple opponent heroes, AT 6 RANGE, with only a 16 roll.
This is a completely different ability, thematically (i.e. dominating people of your own army - on the same side - to give up their mental control to you is very different from controlling an enemy).
You've all heard the discussions about Ne-Gok-Sa and why many people wouldn't want his unit to be changed to even a 19 and 20, much less increased to range, much less to a 6 Range.

Now, from a powers-analysis standpoint, we should differentiate between ne-gok-sa, strategically, and this Mindflayer.

NGS takes over the opponent completely.
Sworgren allows you to control them whenever you choose.

That is intriguing, that at any time, you take them over, but strategically it dictates that the only thing your opponent can do then is throw the Bubbled units into battle, as far away from their other figures as possible.

This is a bit too dominating for one 110 point unit, IMO.
You see the pricing for units that change the overal strategy of a battle: look at Dund (changes grouping of Order Markers), look at Saylind's limited ability, look at Morsbane :!:, etc.

I just feel that if you want to better blend with the official units, you would make this custom do only ONE of the options you've give him. Official units seldom do more than one specific thing. And they cost out the wazoo if it is strategically changing the gameplay.

This unit significantly affects strategic gameplay.
I'm sure that's why you, and me, and others like the concept.
But this is the same problem with Agent Bale, I realize, and must also be why you and GB can't understand my issues with that unit's multiple-strategic-altering abilities as well.

Too many goodiesin one unit.
Too many game-altering effects from one, mid-priced unit.

And as you say, GB - not enough tough choices to make, when one unit does many things.

[Grungebob]

I have not tested Sorgwen yet so this is just discussion. I have played Agent Bale in numerous games both before open discussion and many times since input. After my experiences with her, I am loath take to heart criticism from those that make statements based upon theory and no testing. I would consider it, but not make changes until I tested them. This "Mental Playtesting" will not cut it I'm afraid. I am so glad that I ignored many of the suggestions that were made about DW1000. On that note I am determined to get Sorgwen on the game table soon. He is a compelling enough unit that I think some good concrete playtesting is in order here. When you are making choices while being attacked you might find that your decisions are different than you'd expect. For example, I don't see myself risking a roll or wasting a Bubble on a friendly just so I can play the order marker game. I don't see it as that beneficila that it would have a huge impact on gameplay as Reaper is suggesting, and I certainly wouldn't expect it to result in a price jump..... But during a game I might decide otherwise as situations I never thought of may pop up. I am going to keep to a minimum my SWOT.... "Suggestin WithOut Testin" on this guy.

[truth]

Ok you can use him to perserve markers, but consider the consiqunces. It costs you 110 points, you can't put SorGwen anywhere close to battle thus rendering his other side of the ability useless, It's going to take you a few turns of setup to get your friendlies bubbled. Bubbling other figures can be potentially quite powerful. But it requires that you get sorgwen fairly close to said enemy. I've got the figure ordered and on the way... So I too will be putting him into play and see how his tricky mechanics playout.

[reapersaurus]

Do you want to take this to another thread, GB? (if so, just create a dedicated thread for this, and move my post to it)

Because you have just posted something that REQUIRES us as customs reviewers to address.

You just got across in your post that you effectively downplay all analysis of a unit.
I'm not reading anything into it that isn;t there GB - you said:
"I am loath take to heart criticism from those that make statements based upon theory and no testing."
and
"I am going to keep to a minimum my SWOT.... "Suggestin WithOut Testin" on this guy."

I don't know what you actually feel, but it certainly sounds like you are dismissing our knowledge of HS cards completely, unless they are backed up by some required number of playtests.

And what, do you suggest, is this required number of playtests before a analysis is considered?
10 playtests?
15?
Because we all know that 1, 2, 3 playtests is simply not enough to even remotely get around the vagaracies of chance and probability.

Further still, what conditions do we have to meet before these playtests should be considered valuable?
Because we all know that playing against a non-competetive foe doesn;t adequately test a unit's powers. Bad terrain positioning, order marker placement, etc can devalue the results of a playtest as to be a waste of time. You know this. I know this.

So what do you suggest we do, when reviewing custom units, GB?
Set aside multiple hours of playtime when we have competetive opponents to incorporate a custom that we want to give a testride?
Completely throw out common-sense observations like "When Sowrgwen is first activated and brought into position (from the starting position), he is almost guaranteed to have free attempts to use his Mind Bubble ability, since no enemy fig should be in range." :?:

You seem to mentally imagine the units in the least-beneficial/least-difficult way. You did this with Agent Bale, and with Sorgwen.
The fact remains that there WILL be times when Agent Bale grants a tremendous advantage, teleporting a friendly melee unit into the heart of the opponent's defense, and teleporting an enemy ranged unit into the heart of your melee grip.
This is common sense, based on standard HS gameplay. These battlelines are regularly drawn in HS gameplay (having defended ranged units and having a group of melee). (and this is just from off-the-top-of-my-memory of Agent Bale, not a deep analysis)
Similarly, Sorgwen WILL likely have "free" attempts to Mind Bubble friendly units if he wants, since he usually has to activate a few times to get into battle position.
The fact that you dismiss these mental observations since they weren't originated from playtesting seems to me to be an indictment of thinking things through at all, no matter how obvious or common sense the in-game situation being created/discussed is. :?:

[truth]

Your using words like obvious and common sense, where as I belive both of the units your reffering too are the kind that can suprise you. Your assuming that they are going to often find themselves in favorable situations against opponents who seem to lack the thinking power to react to their unique abilities. Playtesting the units offer an insight that observation alone can't. Does that mean every unit requires extensive playtesting? I don't think so, just the ones that are difficult to judge their EXACT usefulness, such as SorGwen.

[Grungebob]

TO REAPER:

Not at all, what I am saying is that you particularly express your observations with convictions that have very little basis. I personally question the accuracy of your common sense based upon my experiences in contrast to the statements you have made about many units in the past. I do play with alot of these units and find that they perfom differently than you suggest. My assumption is that you probably don't play that much or else you might see things a little differently. Your suggestions all should be taken with this grain of salt. I look at this Sorgwen and have formed an opinion on it that is not the same as yours.... The diference is that I am not going make broad negative statements about it until I've played it... which will be soon. Of course I doubt you will be playing this one at all and that is certainly your choice. I will hold my opinions until I play it.

[reapersaurus]

1) The statements I mentioned are common sense.
I'm not suggesting that every analysis point I make is common sense, but I will adamantly argue that those 2 are common sense
a - that it is very sommon to have a situation where there is a dangerous ranged unit aways away from your main grouped melee force that if Agent Bale could swap positions of it could dramatically change the outcome of the battle, 2 fold and
b) - that Sworgwen will have early activation where he (it?) has to move up from the back starting position where he can "freely" try to Bubble friendly units if he wants.

2) I'm not going to playtest for hours with competetive players from someone else's custom units.
I don't even do that with mine - don't have the time.
That is simply asking too much of a person who gives of their knowledge and skills, to require them to spend hours of playtesting just to give a reasoned opinion based on common gameplay situations.
Frankly, I'm shocked and disappointed you would require that of me or anyone else that tries to help you guys out by giving a different perspective of your HS works.
Playtesting is lots of time, and you have to have competetive players that know what they're doing or there is no point. I do not have that luxury. I guarantee that the designers of this game don't playtest the majority of their units. That's why they have playtesters, to spend the time to do that aspect. Go ahead and ask the designers how much is changed in the units once it gets to the playtest phase - I think you may just be surprised to find out that many of them don't change once they reach that phase. How? Because they have been extensively thought-out, by people that know the game and the basic HS power-level and game strategies.

3) I play plenty enough to render these supported-by-examples opinions.
I don't play every day, or every weekend, but I sure play plenty enough for you not to dismiss my reasoned analysis because I apparently don;t f-ing play enough for YOUR qualifications. Frankly, that disappoints me again and actually pisses me off.

4) QWuestion my common sense all you want, but it is right out there in back and white.
Dodge my examples and don;t answer my questions if you want, but don;t you dare think that you have addressed my points, or even resoplved anything.
For example:
The 2 common sense situations about these 2 units ARE straightforward. How you can;t see them, and CONTINUALLY avoid replying to them, is baffling to me.
Further, you completely dodged my direct questions to you about how you feel about analysing customs:
Do you have a mandate about how many playtests are required before considering the unit analysis?
If so, how ,many platests do you require before considering them? What playtest environment is required before you consider them?

These are direct questions grungebob that are critical to the HS customs analysis community (I.e. you, me, and any other person that contributes to customs efforts with suggestions).

Please answer these questions. Don;t avoid them by attacking my credibility personally and calling them "broad negative statements". This ill becomes you, and never would have been done by the grungebob I remember.

[Grungebob]

What I am saying is that there are two types of input. One based upon a hunch and another based upon playtesting. I find that the advice offered based upon hunches is for the most part decent, but should be taken as inferior to suggestions and observations based upon playtest results.

[Jason]

Sorgwen is an absolute BOMB. 110 is insanely low. So let me get this right, for 110 points she gets a 30% chance at controlling the opponent's Q9, Nilfheim, or Braxas and ALSO could continually keep using that Hero turn after turn after turn forcing your opponent to Kill their Best unit PLUS crushing important support units that until then had been safe behind their enemy lines? With a 16-20 roll being needed on average it would only take 2 tries to pull off her ability on an enemy Hero. This isn't even mentioning her crazy 6 range, 5 life, 5 movement, 3 attack, 3 defense.

If I am reading her powers right 110 isn't remotely close to cost. I'd easily pay 200 for a Bomb like that

(I am assuming the bubble on the oppnonent stays there since nothing in the power talks about removing it)

[Grungebob]

she does have to be alive to use the bubble and it does take orders. This is a toughy!!

[Jason]

If the Bubble stays on the opponent's figures and does not go away she should be costed over 200

[reapersaurus]

What I am saying is that there are two types of input. One based upon a hunch and another based upon playtesting. I find that the advice offered based upon hunches is for the most part decent, but should be taken as inferior to suggestions and observations based upon playtest results.If you had just said that, I would see that point and agree to a degree.

You still haven;t addressed the direct questions, or qualified what kind of playtesting is required for you to consider it quality feedback that would affect your minds-eye's opinion of a particular unit.

You are free to not qualify your criteria, but it would make your case stronger and certainly clearer if you got across what requirements you have.

Everyone must realize that until customs creators have a group of experienced platesters that will put lots of time and scenarios to throw at their customs efforts, we are ALWAYS dependant on mental analysis of custom units, and always have been.

Grungebobm, your recent posts seem to indicate that you are either not OK with that, never realized that, or have changed your mind about it since it's always been this way.

And my 2 common sense observations are still just as valid as they always have been. ;) *big wink*

[Fallen Templar]

Truth what font and size do you happen to use for your cards

[truth]

Truth what font and size do you happen to use for your cards

It dosn't really matter as font size is relative to the size of card template your working with. My working card templates are much bigger than the jpgs I upload and the templates most use.

Odds say that it will take around 3 tries for SorGwen to bubble someone. That's three turns out on top of enemy lines. Once he does bubble someone he's then got to spend more turns running to saftey or stay out ontop of enemy lines. Anyway you cut it, your opponent is an absolute moron if they allow SorGwen to do ALL of this without challange. At MOST he's worth 140 points, but I believe he's good to go at 110. Playing to mind bubble an enemy figure makes him a gamble unit. Like so many of the units in heroscape there are times when he does well over his points in damage for his team. And there are other times where he will flop completely and do no good at all. (Like Sudema has done for me EVERY single time I've played her.)

[Jason]

-The odds of it working within 2 rounds is 44% which is pretty good. After the bubble works you won't have to move SorGwen around since you can use the Uber figure you control to wipe out any nearby units that could potentially attack.

-Comparing to Sudema

*More life, better attack, better range, same movement, same defense PLUS likely bonding early in the game PLUS Cheaper than Sudema PLUS arguably a better ability:

-1st the ability allows for a limited bonding

-2nd in many cases controlling the enemy is more important than destroying it since then you could use that piece to attack your opponent's other figures. This not only kills the opponent's other pieces but also protects yours from damage.

The question isn't whether she is better than Sudema but how much more expensive. I think 200ish is about right

[truth]

-The odds of it working within 2 rounds is 44% which is pretty good. After the bubble works you won't have to move SorGwen around since you can use the Uber figure you control to wipe out any nearby units that could potentially attack.

-Comparing to Sudema

*More life, better attack, better range, same movement, same defense PLUS likely bonding early in the game PLUS Cheaper than Sudema PLUS arguably a better ability:

-1st the ability allows for a limited bonding

-2nd in many cases controlling the enemy is more important than destroying it since then you could use that piece to attack your opponent's other figures. This not only kills the opponent's other pieces but also protects yours from damage.

The question isn't whether she is better than Sudema but how much more expensive. I think 200ish is about right

By the way your talking you don't seem to understand this units power. He dosn't posess full control. If the unit he's bubbled stays close to take out other enemies your oppenent can just put markers on that unit and smack SorGwen down with it. Your wrong about it being better than a straight out kill of an uber powerful unit because that same unit he takes control of can easily turn on him and destroy him and then all of that time and set up bubbling is for naught. Even if he bubbles the most expensive unit in the game: Jouton. I don't see Jouton doing more than 110 points of damage in the time it takes your opponent to whack you over the head. Unless your opponent has moved Jouton forward all the way into enemy territory without and support. And if your opponent did that knowing what SorGwen can do, then he's an idiot. Find yourself smarter people to play with, it's more of a challange.

[Jason]

I guess we will disagree on this ability being worse than Sudema's. I find it superior for a smart player. Since you used Jotun we'll use him as an example You bubble him from 6 spaces away. Your next turn you can send him around crushing any units that could get within range of Sorgwen and you could make sure to move him far enough so that even if the opponent takes control of Jotun he would not be able to attack Sorgwen that round (too far away)

Your costing of 110 means you think this piece is inferior to Sudema and only 20 points better than Ne Gok Sa, I can't imagine many others would agree

[truth]

I guess we will disagree on this ability being worse than Sudema's. I find it superior for a smart player. Since you used Jotun we'll use him as an example You bubble him from 6 spaces away. Your next turn you can send him around crushing any units that could get within range of Sorgwen and you could make sure to move him far enough so that even if the opponent takes control of Jotun he would not be able to attack Sorgwen that round (too far away)

Your costing of 110 means you think this piece is inferior to Sudema and only 20 points better than Ne Gok Sa, I can't imagine many others would agree

I'm convinced that nay sayers simply lack experience with the game, or at least with the game in respect to analyzing how potential units will play out. You "menatl playtesters", as it were, seem to be mentally playtesting where your far superior in luck strategy and all other factors to your opponent.

[Grungebob]

Mental Playtesters:

If you want to SW0T that is fine, mental playtesting has its place, but don't make broad statements about a unit that are phrased as if true when in fact they are just a hunch.... And one based on limited personal experience at that.

Everyone must realize that until customs creators have a group of experienced platesters that will put lots of time and scenarios to throw at their customs efforts, we are ALWAYS dependant on mental analysis of custom units, and always have been.

Grungebobm, your recent posts seem to indicate that you are either not OK with that, never realized that, or have changed your mind about it since it's always been this way. I am definitely changing my opinion of some member's input. I don't mind some people voicing concerns/opinions, or suggestions, but when I hear somebody make strong negative claims about a custom unit, and those claims seem off to me, I am far less inclined to value their other opinions/statements etc..

[Jason]

I'm convinced most people would find this piece far more powerful than Sudema. I'd love for some neutral people to state where they think your piece relates to Sudema. The fact you have personally stated you have had difficulty using Sudema suggests to me that there is a decent chance that you would misprice a unit that is similar to a degree. Either the piece is very undercosted or else reaper and I have absolutely no idea about anything

[Grungebob]

I'm convinced most people would find this piece far more powerful than Sudema. I'd love for some neutral people to state where they think your piece relates to Sudema. The fact you have personally stated you have had difficulty using Sudema suggests to me that there is a decent chance that you would misprice a unit that is similar to a degree. Either the piece is very undercosted or else reaper and I have absolutely no idea about anythingI am trying to set up a playtest session tomorrow. If I do Sudema and Sorgwen will be involved for sure. Plus I plan on using one of the 400 point army builds from that thread. I will know more then!!

[Fallen Templar]

I'm convinced most people would find this piece far more powerful than Sudema. I'd love for some neutral people to state where they think your piece relates to Sudema. The fact you have personally stated you have had difficulty using Sudema suggests to me that there is a decent chance that you would misprice a unit that is similar to a degree. Either the piece is very undercosted or else reaper and I have absolutely no idea about anythingDude are you trying to be insulting

[ChaosChild]

Am I neutral?

Without playtesting him myself, I don't think he is more powerful than Sudema. I would have guessed 120 points to start with.

First, his ability to bubble a friendly is not worth a lot of points. It is like Utgar's Order's for the Minions, but you have to take a turn to try to enable it.

Second, his ability to bubble an opposing fig, is dangerous for him. He has to get fairly close (if he turns out to be too powerful in testing, lower the range by 1). You have to realize that all of this is taking up order markers just for him. He is not going to go on a rampage with an opposing fig because it would leave him vunerable.

I think truth and GB are on the right track. With playtesting, I don' think that they will find that he is under-costed by to much, if at all.

[Miniature Geek]

Okay this card to me seems really nice, and I don't understand the feelings that the card is undercosted. Not only can he only bubble an enemy on a 16 or higher, he only controls them on his turn.

So here is a situation,
He Bubbles Deathwalker 9000, Deathwalker takes his turn, shoots him, he takes a wound, he takes his turn, but chooses to not move, he has Deathwalker 9000 shoot another enemy. Deathwalkers next turn, he's still in range, takes another shot and deals another wound. This isn't a game breaking strategy, although using it in certain situations will help, but I doubt this is a game breaking figure at that cost.

[Grungebob]

Am I neutral?

Without playtesting him myself, I don't think he is more powerful than Sudema. I would have guessed 120 points to start with.

First, his ability to bubble a friendly is not worth a lot of points. It is like Utgar's Order's for the Minions, but you have to take a turn to try to enable it.

Second, his ability to bubble an opposing fig, is dangerous for him. He has to get fairly close (if he turns out to be too powerful in testing, lower the range by 1). You have to realize that all of this is taking up order markers just for him. He is not going to go on a rampage with an opposing fig because it would leave him vunerable.

I think truth and GB are on the right track. With playtesting, I don' think that they will find that he is under-costed by to much, if at all.Those are exactly the points we have mentioned!! Thank you Chaoschild. Also I would mention that he only gets 3 bubbles. Once he uses all three they are gone. There is no limit to the amount of units NegokSa can shackle. There is no limt to the amount of units Sudema can destroy. The likelihood of me using a bubble on my own guys is very small.

[ChaosChild]

I always forget something when I make a long post. :?: Yes, that was long for me. :)

[skyknight]

I am goin to chime in here if thats ok, my thought is she is just a bit undercosted. I would say around 140, I like her being 110 though and I would make her life at three. I just like these mental and magic kinda folks to get there rumps handed to them when people get close to em. She could get alot of turns with five life. I believe I would just make her a bit easier to off once she has a character and give your opponent the chance to recover from this. Just a thought.

Edit: I forgot to mention what I thought of her, I was actually thinkin tonight how to pull something like this off and I stumbled onto this. Kinda of a kwinky dink. I think It is a great ability and I do not believe she is all powerful. Very nicely done

[truth]

I am goin to chime in here if thats ok, my thought is she is just a bit undercosted. I would say around 140, I like her being 110 though and I would make her life at three. I just like these mental and magic kinda folks to get there rumps handed to them when people get close to em. She could get alot of turns with five life. I believe I would just make her a bit easier to off once she has a character and give your opponent the chance to recover from this. Just a thought.

Not a bad one at that skyknight. If he proves to be overly powerful as is that would be one of my considerations for balancing.

[Jason]

I think making changing the # from 16 to 18 is the better way to balance the piece

[skyknight]

That is exactly what I would do, play test him and check it out. I have a hunch that he is pretty close to bein right. Just a little tweak may be all that is needed or nothing at all.

[Grungebob]

Jason, sometimes a custom creator would rather pump up the points and maintain the functionality of the unit the way that he intended.

[truth]

I think making changing the # from 16 to 18 is the better way to balance the piece

You would be great at making boring custom units. Maybe you should go start a thread. Who wants to play with a unit who's only purpose in the game is to take temporary control of other figures... only it's near impossible for him to do so... so he's basically just a 3/3 piece of crap.

Yeah great idea! :screwy:

I think I like him at the 110 mark, I'm not a big fan of investing TOO many points in a gamble figure, so if it turns out I'm wrong and he's quite powerful more times than not I'll either shorten the range on the special, reduce his life, and/or reduce his defense.

[truth]

Jason, sometimes a custom creator would rather pump up the points and maintain the functionality of the unit the way that he intended.

hehehe, he made this post while I was making mine... He's a much better/nicer admin than me! :D

[ChaosChild]

I think I like him at the 110 mark, I'm not a big fan of investing TOO many points in a gamble figure, so if it turns out I'm wrong and he's quite powerful more times than not I'll either shorten the range on the special, reduce his life, and/or reduce his defense.

I wouldn't reduce his defense any because that would make him too easy to kill in one shot. I would consider shorter range by 1 or less life by 1. That is, if he needs it.

[Rhydderch]

Hey Truth: I definitely like Sorgwen. Its a simple but more effective way to take control of a figure. I also do not think he is overpowered. Unlike Ne-Gok-Sa or Sudema he has an limit to the number of figures he can target and his mind control only lasts as long as he is alive. He is also unable to target any squad figures so that limits what he can do.

Realistically using an enemy figure for one turn is not that powerful. It may be under the right circumstances but it still depends on attack rolls and the placement of figures. Many heroes will not even be good targets - auras that only last one turn are pretty useless. A player could run an enemy figure into lava or force it to take multiple disengagement attacks but that would just be like Sudema's power - only slower.

Range 6 for his ability is powerful but not necessarily broken. It should not be too hard to counter Sorgwen. Since he cannot target squad figures a single Gladiatron could lock him in place. A squad of Venoc Vipers could probably kill Sorgwen in a turn or two since his defense is low. Weaker heroes or common heroes could also be sent after Sorgwen. Players could also keep their units together so they could attack Sorgwen the turn after he Bubbles a hero.

So ultimately I believe 110 is probably closer to the right cost than 200. I do agree that his life could be a little lower - say 4 or so. You could also require the player to remove the bubble marker whenever he uses the power, so Sorgwen only has 3 tries, regardless of whether he succeeds or not.

Anyway good job and let us know how he does when you playtest him!

[truth]

Hey Truth: I definitely like Sorgwen. Its a simple but more effective way to take control of a figure. I also do not think he is overpowered. Unlike Ne-Gok-Sa or Sudema he has an limit to the number of figures he can target and his mind control only lasts as long as he is alive. He is also unable to target any squad figures so that limits what he can do.

Realistically using an enemy figure for one turn is not that powerful. It may be under the right circumstances but it still depends on attack rolls and the placement of figures. Many heroes will not even be good targets - auras that only last one turn are pretty useless. A player could run an enemy figure into lava or force it to take multiple disengagement attacks but that would just be like Sudema's power - only slower.

Range 6 for his ability is powerful but not necessarily broken. It should not be too hard to counter Sorgwen. Since he cannot target squad figures a single Gladiatron could lock him in place. A squad of Venoc Vipers could probably kill Sorgwen in a turn or two since his defense is low. Weaker heroes or common heroes could also be sent after Sorgwen. Players could also keep their units together so they could attack Sorgwen the turn after he Bubbles a hero.

So ultimately I believe 110 is probably closer to the right cost than 200. I do agree that his life could be a little lower - say 4 or so. You could also require the player to remove the bubble marker whenever he uses the power, so Sorgwen only has 3 tries, regardless of whether he succeeds or not.

Anyway good job and let us know how he does when you playtest him!

Now THAT is good "mental playtesting". Notice how his immaginary opponent had the intelligence to react to his well laid out plans. Thanks for the input Rhy. You can count on me to keep up on updating my cards when the orginal ideas prove to be off in any way :mrgreen: .

That's just the way it should be! :thumbsup:

[Rhydderch]

Now THAT is good "mental playtesting". Notice how his immaginary opponent had the intelligence to react to his well laid out plans. Thanks for the input Rhy. You can count on me to keep up on updating my cards when the orginal ideas prove to be off in any way

Heh. Well whenever I design a figure I try to think of ways it can be used to break the game AND how a smart player could counter any strategy used with the figure. If a very powerful figure of mine cannot be countered, it usually means it either needs to be costed more or tweaked so that it can be countered.

Sorgwen is powerful but he can definitely be countered. Another example that shows us why Sorgwen probably does not make the 200 point category is Braxas who can target 3 heroes at a time for destruction on a roll of 17. He has less range but can also target squad figures on a roll of 8. Add flying, an attack of 5, and 8 life to the picture and you have a REAL 200 point figure.

Can Sorgwen control Braxas? Yes. But against a good player it'll take some strategy just to get Sorgwen close enough. And even then Sorgwen might just die when Braxas breathes acidic poison on him. Its not like 17 is that much higher than 16 and Braxas can probably use his poison twice before Sorgwen ever gets a chance to use manipulate since he has to waste one turn just to Bubble Braxas.

[ultradoug]

I dont like the name "Blue bubble."

[Jason]

"You could also require the player to remove the bubble marker whenever he uses the power, so Sorgwen only has 3 tries, regardless of whether he succeeds or not. "

That would radically alter the current figure and would bring it closer in cost to 110.


"There is no limit to the amount of units NegokSa can shackle. There is no limt to the amount of units Sudema can destroy"

Technically correct but realistically incorrect. Negoksa having to roll a 20 limits how many he could control drasticlly. Yes he could control 500 in 1 game in a gigantic game if you played 50 trillion times but that isn't realistic. Saying Negoksa's ability is superior or has the ability to control more is an insult to everyone's intelligence.

***The only ways to really balance this piece in my opinion would be to install 1 of 3 changes:

-Change the # needed to control from 16 to 18
-Make the bubble last only for only 1 activation of the unit
-Give only 3 chances to use the bubble, if all 3 fail then the ability fails

[truth]

"You could also require the player to remove the bubble marker whenever he uses the power, so Sorgwen only has 3 tries, regardless of whether he succeeds or not. "

That would radically alter the current figure and would bring it closer in cost to 110.


"There is no limit to the amount of units NegokSa can shackle. There is no limt to the amount of units Sudema can destroy"

Technically correct but realistically incorrect. Negoksa having to roll a 20 limits how many he could control drasticlly. Yes he could control 500 in 1 game in a gigantic game if you played 50 trillion times but that isn't realistic. Saying Negoksa's ability is superior or has the ability to control more is an insult to everyone's intelligence.

***The only ways to really balance this piece in my opinion would be to install 1 of 3 changes:

-Change the # needed to control from 16 to 18
-Make the bubble last only for only 1 activation of the unit
-Give only 3 chances to use the bubble, if all 3 fail then the ability fails

Yeah well, if that's the case then I don't give a darn about your opinon. Keep it out of my thread... please and thankyou :D

[CornPuff]

I like SorGwen.

Most the mental playtesting on here focuseson his abilty to control the enemy.

I think the best use of him would be to Bubble a friendly figure, and then you and your teamate can focus move that figure.
It might make certain 'race' type scenarios imbalanced.

Imagine mind bubbling your friends Jotun, and then the enemy has to deal with a double fast double attacking mad giant figure. At least that is how I would use SorGwen. Next, bubble your friends Nilfheim. It could change the pace of a 2v2 game.

[Grungebob]

I can see the uses for this Cornpuff. It could come in handy in many situations. Just remember though that an order marker spent controling a friendly model is one spent NOT controling one of your own uber powerful figures.

[Miniature Geek]

I can see the uses for this Cornpuff. It could come in handy in many situations. Just remember though that an order marker spent controling a friendly model is one spent NOT controling one of your own uber powerful figures.

But in team games it would be great, moving that awesome fig six times around the board...

[truth]

I can see the uses for this Cornpuff. It could come in handy in many situations. Just remember though that an order marker spent controling a friendly model is one spent NOT controling one of your own uber powerful figures.

But in team games it would be great, moving that awesome fig six times around the board...

Sure it would... If your goal is to take out a particular figure or set of figures and sacrafice the bubbled figure doing it. It could be a good strategy, but I don't think imbalancing. Remember you spent 110 points drafting Sorgwen to make it possible, 225 points on Jouton, and a bunch of order markers to get it done.

[Miniature Geek]

I can see the uses for this Cornpuff. It could come in handy in many situations. Just remember though that an order marker spent controling a friendly model is one spent NOT controling one of your own uber powerful figures.

But in team games it would be great, moving that awesome fig six times around the board...

Sure it would... If your goal is to take out a particular figure or set of figures and sacrafice the bubbled figure doing it. It could be a good strategy, but I don't think imbalancing. Remember you spent 110 points drafting Sorgwen to make it possible, 225 points on Jouton, and a bunch of order markers to get it done.

Oh heck no I don't think it is unbalancing at all, that wasn't what I ment with my post. I'm not that good of a mental playtester, but from what I've thought about, it metaphorically cost you more to use the ability. If it worked every time, or even half the time, yeah it be wayyyy under costed, but as it is, it's great, only three bubbles, that's great, sure some games you're going to get all three, but how many are you going to have where you don't get one.

He's costed fine, if he comes out later to be broken, you're the type who isn't too proud to fix a mistake, you'll make him work.

[Grungebob]

What you are saying is that the figure could be used as a cheap way to get more points for your unit while playing team games. In other words once you bubble your teammate's Jotun you will be putting orders on Sorgwen (110) but getting the value of Jotun (225). It is worth looking in to. If this proves to be a problem there are a half a dozen ways to easily fix it.

[truth]

What you are saying is that the figure could be used as a cheap way to get more points for your unit while playing team games. In other words once you bubble your teammate's Jotun you will be putting orders on Sorgwen (110) but getting the value of Jotun (225). It is worth looking in to. If this proves to be a problem there are a half a dozen ways to easily fix it.

I've seen deadeye dan at 60 points kill Nilfhiem in one shot. Isn't that about the same thing?

[Grungebob]

What you are saying is that the figure could be used as a cheap way to get more points for your unit while playing team games. In other words once you bubble your teammate's Jotun you will be putting orders on Sorgwen (110) but getting the value of Jotun (225). It is worth looking in to. If this proves to be a problem there are a half a dozen ways to easily fix it.

I've seen deadeye dan at 60 points kill Nilfhiem in one shot. Isn't that about the same thing?Sure. This is even more situational as it only pertains to team games. But it is interesting. Think, a guy could purchase Sorgwen for 110 points and his teammate could draft Jotun and once bubbled, it is like your opponents are facing 2 jotuns (with one set of life points). This is a drafting/team/coordination anomoly that I don't personally think is that mainstream to be much of a concern though.

[Jason]

That's a shame if you dislike valid opinions, I guess not everyone likes people pointing out flaws

[truth]

That's a shame if you dislike valid opinions, I guess not everyone likes people pointing out flaws

Nope I love valid opinons. If you had any I'd welcome them. Since you don't stay off my thread or you'll be finding yourself taking about a week break from the site altogether ;).

[Jason]

So in your mind saying a unit has a range 6 x that of Ne Gok Sa, with an ability 5x more likely to work, with an ability that can benefit friendly pieces too, yet only costs 20 points more is underrpriced is not a valid opinion. Interesting.....

[truth]

So in your mind saying a unit has a range 6 x that of Ne Gok Sa, with an ability 5x more likely to work, with an ability that can benefit friendly pieces too, yet only costs 20 points more is underrpriced is not a valid opinion. Interesting.....

Well... You can't say you weren't warned... see ya in a week.

[LilNewbie]

Umm...okay...PM sent

[Grungebob]

Ok we had a nice little playtest. My nephews are here and little scapers they are. Teams:

Nephew #1 (Josh)

Sorgwen
Vikings
Brothers Tor
Reflective monks
Snipers

Nephew #2 (Caleb)

Sudema
Bale
Monks
Krav Maga agents

In round 2 Sorgwen won initiative and successfully Bubbled Bale. Bale activated next and walked over and since nobody friendly was around to teleport, she blasted Sorgwen and scored 2 wounds on him.

Before Sorgwen activated again the Krav Maga managed to score two more wounds on him. The next time sorgwen activated he chose to activate Bale. This was a mistake if you ask me, as I felt he should have edged around and attempted to Bubble Sudema who was working her bones up to the front lines.

Bale who is much less effective at range four for her teleport fail her roll to switch one of the brothers with an agent.

Next round Sorgwen decides to activate Bale again and has her jump off a cliff and disengage twice and wounds her badly.. Again Bale fails to teleport. Nephew #2 activates Bale and uses his bond ability on an agent to destroy Sorgwen. T

hen Sudema gets up there and starts woopin ass!! Every time she activates somebody dies She easily destroys one of the Tor brothers which leaves us with a giant ? about how they work. We quickly decide that the left over brother has 3 wounds? Not sure.

Reflective monks are just way cool and they surround Sudema who is on high ground. The monks arrive and start tearing up the vikings and Reflective monks but the snipers are steadily killing everyone off.

Sudema destroys the entire squad of snipers and then is destroyed by the surviving Brother. Nephew #1 then finishes up by mopping up the stragglers and victory goes to Joshua Nephew #1.

Anyway, I observed that the first thing players do when Sorgwen starts bubbling is to attack Sorgwen who is fragile. She does not seem to be an easy unit to field as the decisions are tough. Choosing to activate one of your bubbled enemies is very tempting, but it probably leaves your Sorgwen vulnerable. My nephew eventuially decided to try and use Bubble to destroy Bale, which if he had done it earlier might have freed Sorgwen up to attempt a bubble on the juicier Sudema. Looking forward to the next game with her.

[truth]

Thanks for the report Gbob!

You know poor SorGwen has some major identity issues. I call "it" a he but others call it a she... the world may never know.

[netherspirit]

Change his/its/her name to Pat.

990! 11 MORE!

[ultradoug]

Change his/its/her name to Pat 11 more to go.

lol!

[jcb231]

Okay this card to me seems really nice, and I don't understand the feelings that the card is undercosted. Not only can he only bubble an enemy on a 16 or higher, he only controls them on his turn.

So here is a situation,
He Bubbles Deathwalker 9000, Deathwalker takes his turn, shoots him, he takes a wound, he takes his turn, but chooses to not move, he has Deathwalker 9000 shoot another enemy. Deathwalkers next turn, he's still in range, takes another shot and deals another wound. This isn't a game breaking strategy, although using it in certain situations will help, but I doubt this is a game breaking figure at that cost.

Marching DW9K deep into lava fields would also be a good tactic before attacking, especially if you had the last move of the round.

[jcb231]

I think making changing the # from 16 to 18 is the better way to balance the piece

You would be great at making boring custom units. Maybe you should go start a thread. Who wants to play with a unit who's only purpose in the game is to take temporary control of other figures... only it's near impossible for him to do so... so he's basically just a 3/3 piece of crap.

Yeah great idea! :screwy:

I think I like him at the 110 mark, I'm not a big fan of investing TOO many points in a gamble figure, so if it turns out I'm wrong and he's quite powerful more times than not I'll either shorten the range on the special, reduce his life, and/or reduce his defense.

Truth, I'm pretty much on your side with this figure but this post seems strangely rude. Not a good way to take criticism, even if you don't agree with it. Your follow up of banning him for a week was borderline childish. Jason wasn't out of line. He had an opinion, voiced it, and challenged you to defend it. You did so by belitting him, insulting him, telling him to get out of your thread, and then banning him. Hmm...not the best use of admin powers. I'd expect more from you.

You and GB also totally ignored some of Reaper's valid questions about playtesting. I don't expect that you have to answer everything, but you were very dismissive of perfectly reasonable queries.

That said, I think ol' squid-head is a good custom. He will need some playtesting and tweaking, and I think he'll end up being raised by 20-40 points in said testing. Good use of a fun D&D figure.

[jcb231]

Ok we had a nice little playtest. My nephews are here and little scapers they are. Teams:

Nephew #1 (Josh)

Sorgwen
Vikings
Brothers Tor
Reflective monks
Snipers

Nephew #2 (Caleb)

Sudema
Bale
Monks
Krav Maga agents

In round 2 Sorgwen won initiative and successfully Bubbled Bale. Bale activated next and walked over and since nobody friendly was around to teleport, she blasted Sorgwen and scored 2 wounds on him.

Before Sorgwen activated again the Krav Maga managed to score two more wounds on him. The next time sorgwen activated he chose to activate Bale. This was a mistake if you ask me, as I felt he should have edged around and attempted to Bubble Sudema who was working her bones up to the front lines.

Bale who is much less effective at range four for her teleport fail her roll to switch one of the brothers with an agent.

Next round Sorgwen decides to activate Bale again and has her jump off a cliff and disengage twice and wounds her badly.. Again Bale fails to teleport. Nephew #2 activates Bale and uses his bond ability on an agent to destroy Sorgwen. T

hen Sudema gets up there and starts woopin ass!! Every time she activates somebody dies She easily destroys one of the Tor brothers which leaves us with a giant ? about how they work. We quickly decide that the left over brother has 3 wounds? Not sure.

Reflective monks are just way cool and they surround Sudema who is on high ground. The monks arrive and start tearing up the vikings and Reflective monks but the snipers are steadily killing everyone off.

Sudema destroys the entire squad of snipers and then is destroyed by the surviving Brother. Nephew #1 then finishes up by mopping up the stragglers and victory goes to Joshua Nephew #1.

Anyway, I observed that the first thing players do when Sorgwen starts bubbling is to attack Sorgwen who is fragile. She does not seem to be an easy unit to field as the decisions are tough. Choosing to activate one of your bubbled enemies is very tempting, but it probably leaves your Sorgwen vulnerable. My nephew eventuially decided to try and use Bubble to destroy Bale, which if he had done it earlier might have freed Sorgwen up to attempt a bubble on the juicier Sudema. Looking forward to the next game with her.

Good to see some playtesting going on, but I really don't think playtesting with a bunch of other customs is the way to go. HS playtesting should really be against official units that we can all agree are fairly well-balanced (so no Taelords, for example). Bale, Brothers Tor, Reflective Monks, and so on are fine units, but the point cost of Bale is somewhat questionable, and Tor does have a big ? as you say.

I'm also curious....you mention that Bale took disengage when activated by the bubble....if she was under your control wouldn't it be against the rules for her to take disengage from your units, since they'd all technically be on the same side? Or is this an exception? Maybe it could be spelled out more clearly if so.

[Grungebob]

You ask the age old question jcb. The bottom line for me is that I want people to play more customs. I present this playtest as an example of play ...nothing more. If it does not make clear for you some of the potential uses and pitfalls of this unit, then simply adjust your own view. I have played with all of the units listed in this playtest in previous games. I am comfortable with them and so are my nephews. It is easy to sit on the sidelines and discount my observations but they are still simple observations folllowed by my own opinion. Agent Bale seems to be priced appropriately, she is not very powerful, and has little game changing effect. I have now played her in about 8 games and have observed her in play by others about 3 times.

When she is next to her own guys, and is activated by a bubble, she will take passing swipes from them if she moves away. It says on Sorgwen's card that the bubbled unit is considered to be on sorgwen's team while being bubble activated... We did it right.

In fact there were no units in this game that dominated in any way except for Sudema.

You and GB also totally ignored some of Reaper's valid questions about playtesting. I don't expect that you have to answer everything, but you were very dismissive of perfectly reasonable queriesI'll try this again. When I see somebody make broad and exaggerated negative claims about a unit, offering situational examples that are derived from mental playtesting alone, I am inclined to disregard it, or just take it with a grain of salt. In many cases it appears as if these mental playtester is not taking into account that there will be an opponent who is also playing. I've seen this too many times lately. It is as if the person giving input, rarely plays, because if they did, they would take this into account.

[truth]

I think making changing the # from 16 to 18 is the better way to balance the piece

You would be great at making boring custom units. Maybe you should go start a thread. Who wants to play with a unit who's only purpose in the game is to take temporary control of other figures... only it's near impossible for him to do so... so he's basically just a 3/3 piece of crap.

Yeah great idea! :screwy:

I think I like him at the 110 mark, I'm not a big fan of investing TOO many points in a gamble figure, so if it turns out I'm wrong and he's quite powerful more times than not I'll either shorten the range on the special, reduce his life, and/or reduce his defense.

Truth, I'm pretty much on your side with this figure but this post seems strangely rude. Not a good way to take criticism, even if you don't agree with it. Your follow up of banning him for a week was borderline childish. Jason wasn't out of line. He had an opinion, voiced it, and challenged you to defend it. You did so by belitting him, insulting him, telling him to get out of your thread, and then banning him. Hmm...not the best use of admin powers. I'd expect more from you.

You and GB also totally ignored some of Reaper's valid questions about playtesting. I don't expect that you have to answer everything, but you were very dismissive of perfectly reasonable queries.

That said, I think ol' squid-head is a good custom. He will need some playtesting and tweaking, and I think he'll end up being raised by 20-40 points in said testing. Good use of a fun D&D figure.

Wrong, he was repetatively giving me his input after I told him I wasn't interested. So then I told him just to stay out of the thread altogther. Then he directly disobayed me, an admin, and so I gave him a final warning. He then still felt the need to NOT SHUT UP. So he found himself banned. That ontop of the fact that he's known for starting crap all over this forum and did the same thing on HQ. I won't tolerate it. It's not up for disscussion, my decision is final. He'll be back on in a week.

[jcb231]

You ask the age old question jcb. The bottom line for me is that I want people to play more customs. I present this playtest as an example of play ...nothing more. If it does not make clear for you some of the potential uses and pitfalls of this unit, then simply adjust your own view. I have played with all of the units listed in this playtest in previous games. I am comfortable with them and so are my nephews. It is easy to sit on the sidelines and discount my observations but they are still simple observations folllowed by my own opinion. Agent Bale seems to be priced appropriately, she is not very powerful, and has little game changing effect. I have now played her in about 8 games and have observed her in play by others about 3 times.

When she is next to her own guys, and is activated by a bubble, she will take passing swipes from them if she moves away. It says on Sorgwen's card that the bubbled unit is considered to be on sorgwen's team while being bubble activated... We did it right.

In fact there were no units in this game that dominated in any way except for Sudema.

You and GB also totally ignored some of Reaper's valid questions about playtesting. I don't expect that you have to answer everything, but you were very dismissive of perfectly reasonable queriesI'll try this again. When I see somebody make broad and exaggerated negative claims about a unit, offering situational examples that are derived from mental playtesting alone, I am inclined to disregard it, or just take it with a grain of salt. In many cases it appears as if these mental playtester is not taking into account that there will be an opponent who is also playing. I've seen this too many times lately. It is as if the person giving input, rarely plays, because if they did, they would take this into account.

Oh don't think that I was trying to discount your observations...I respect them and do see some of the pitfalls and high points of the unit from what you've described. I just wondered about the value of playtesting customs against other customs in order to evaluate point cost....but I'll move on from that.

The point I was making about Reaper was you never answered his question....how much playtesting do you expect? What is the benchmark? And so on. Go back and read his questions. While some of his posts were a little harsh, that question was a good one, and deserves an answer, not a repeated ignore.

[jcb231]

Truth, I'm pretty much on your side with this figure but this post seems strangely rude. Not a good way to take criticism, even if you don't agree with it. Your follow up of banning him for a week was borderline childish. Jason wasn't out of line. He had an opinion, voiced it, and challenged you to defend it. You did so by belitting him, insulting him, telling him to get out of your thread, and then banning him. Hmm...not the best use of admin powers. I'd expect more from you.


Wrong, he was repetatively giving me his input after I told him I wasn't interested. So then I told him just to stay out of the thread altogther. Then he directly disobayed me, an admin, and so I gave him a final warning. He then still felt the need to NOT SHUT UP. So he found himself banned. That ontop of the fact that he's known for starting crap all over this forum and did the same thing on HQ. I won't tolerate it. It's not up for disscussion, my decision is final. He'll be back on in a week.

Yeah....you'll probably ban me for this but I'm going to say it anyway. You have to judge people by what they're doing right now. If he started **** in the past it should have been dealt with then. He wasn't starting **** here in this thread and you banned him anticipating that he would? You can't ban him cuz you think he's going to start ****. Pre-emptive banning? WTF? Admin has gone to your head it seems.

He was not flat out rude to you, but you started off being rude to him immediately. Hair trigger temper....

You do great custom work man, but you need to learn to deal with detractors better. Everyone who creates anything is going to have folks that don't like it and those folks are going to voice their opinions. Disagreements are part of discussion and forum posting. Deal with it. Banning someone who has a different opinion than you is childish at best. Listening to what they have to say, whether you agree or not, and finding a way to discuss it with them is much more mature.

Hell, even the ignore button is much more mature, if unfortunate.

Well, I await my week-long ban, as that seems to be the way things are done here now. Ironic that it will only prove my point. Ta.

[Grungebob]

Oh don't think that I was trying to discount your observations...I respect them and do see some of the pitfalls and high points of the unit from what you've described. I just wondered about the value of playtesting customs against other customs in order to evaluate point cost....but I'll move on from that. I play in a custom rich environment. I want units to fit within my games. All of the other customs beside Sorgwen, have been seeing allot of play lately and mostly with just official units. I have confidence in them, but how do I convey that to you? Through battle reports where you can judge for yourself by reading. Nobody is forcing you to even agree with my opinions of a custom unit. In fact I would prefer that folks make up their own minds by playtesting themselves. It is easy and fun

The point I was making about Reaper was you never answered his question....how much playtesting do you expect? What is the benchmark? And so on. Go back and read his questions. While some of his posts were a little harsh, that question was a good one, and deserves an answer, not a repeated ignore.It is my firm belief that if players would play with units just ONE SINGLE time before making judgements, they might see things differently. How many times have we seen somebody bad mouth units that have not even been released only to discover that those units are actually pretty good. Look at the 4th Mass. They still get slammed on occasion by people who are not visualizing their potential. Just one single playtest is very valuable. I like to play with customs so I will give some units more playtime. There are a couple of official units I have never played. I wouldn't dream of denouncing those units until I at least played them once or twice.

[Grungebob]

Truth, I'm pretty much on your side with this figure but this post seems strangely rude. Not a good way to take criticism, even if you don't agree with it. Your follow up of banning him for a week was borderline childish. Jason wasn't out of line. He had an opinion, voiced it, and challenged you to defend it. You did so by belitting him, insulting him, telling him to get out of your thread, and then banning him. Hmm...not the best use of admin powers. I'd expect more from you.


Wrong, he was repetatively giving me his input after I told him I wasn't interested. So then I told him just to stay out of the thread altogther. Then he directly disobayed me, an admin, and so I gave him a final warning. He then still felt the need to NOT SHUT UP. So he found himself banned. That ontop of the fact that he's known for starting crap all over this forum and did the same thing on HQ. I won't tolerate it. It's not up for disscussion, my decision is final. He'll be back on in a week.

Yeah....you'll probably ban me for this but I'm going to say it anyway. You have to judge people by what they're doing right now. If he started **** in the past it should have been dealt with then. He wasn't starting **** here in this thread and you banned him anticipating that he would? You can't ban him cuz you think he's going to start ****. Pre-emptive banning? WTF? Admin has gone to your head it seems.

He was not flat out rude to you, but you started off being rude to him immediately. Hair trigger temper....

You do great custom work man, but you need to learn to deal with detractors better. Everyone who creates anything is going to have folks that don't like it and those folks are going to voice their opinions. Disagreements are part of discussion and forum posting. Deal with it. Banning someone who has a different opinion than you is childish at best. Listening to what they have to say, whether you agree or not, and finding a way to discuss it with them is much more mature.

Hell, even the ignore button is much more mature, if unfortunate.

Well, I await my week-long ban, as that seems to be the way things are done here now. Ironic that it will only prove my point. Ta.jcb, Jason has been causing trouble for a while. If Truth did anything wrong it was letting him join to begin with. And please be fair. There has only been one TEMPORARY banning so far. I'm sure we will regret unbanning him when the time comes.

[shakey_snake]

I'm sure we will regret unbanning him when the time comes....if you guys remember to...

[Grungebob]

http://www.indra.com/8ball/6.gif

[truth]

I'll give you one warning jcb231, drop it.

[Fallen Templar]

Hey truth,
I playtested this figure yesterday. From the 4 games I found these things that could use a little tweaking.

1) with mind bubble maybe increase it to 10 for a friendly figure. When playing with the Sorgown, I found that with a large figure it let larger figures unleash a buttload of pain on enemy squads unit bubble JOTUN. When playing against Sorgowen that squads were wiped out due him bubbling a more powerful figure i.e. MiMRING

2) When Bubbling an enemy figure maybe increase d20 roll for a larger figure. Considering usually these figure are a little more powerful and cause more damage.

[truth]

Hey truth,
I playtested this figure yesterday. From the 4 games I found these things that could use a little tweaking.

1) with mind bubble maybe increase it to 10 for a friendly figure. When playing with the Sorgown, I found that with a large figure it let larger figures unleash a buttload of pain on enemy squads unit bubble JOTUN. When playing against Sorgowen that squads were wiped out due him bubbling a more powerful figure i.e. MiMRING

2) When Bubbling an enemy figure maybe increase d20 roll for a larger figure. Considering usually these figure are a little more powerful and cause more damage.

I'm not really understanding what your trying to say with point number one. Could you try going over that again? What exactlly happened when he had his own figures bubbled that caused them to unleash so much more pain?

[Fallen Templar]

Sorry bout that I'm posting during my study hall in school, I type faster than I write big prob for me

To sum it up. with Mimring bubbled it allowed another FireLine to go out and well as luck would have it not to many shields rolled on my part :(. With Jotun It allowed another wild swing to go and that wiped out one squad. My conclusion with both points is that large or huge figures should have a higher d-20 roll to compensate for more powerful abilities and stats

[truth]

Sorry bout that I'm posting during my study hall in school, I type faster than I write big prob for me

To sum it up. with Mimring bubbled it allowed another FireLine to go out and well as luck would have it not to many shields rolled on my part :(. With Jotun It allowed another wild swing to go and that wiped out one squad. My conclusion with both points is that large or huge figures should have a higher d-20 roll to compensate for more powerful abilities and stats

So you were palying a team game then? And your saying the team up strategy with sorgwen allowed a big powerful unit to strong arm his way through more units before dying?

[jcb231]

I playtested this guy twice. Once last night in a three player fight, and then again over lunch in a small and quick battle. I will try him once more in a large game (my usual 1500 or so) at a later date.

In the first game, we did three armies of 500 points each.

Army I-Alpha
-3X Minutemen 210pts
-Marcus 100pts
-Me-Burq-Sa 50pts
-2X Roman Legion 100pts
-Venoc Vipers 40pts

Army II-Beta
-Jotun 225pts
-Saylind 80pts
-Kelda 80pts
-Dund 110pts

Army III-Gamma
-SorGwen 110pts
-Krav Maga 100pts
-EOVs 100pts
-Drake 100pts
-Ne-Gok-Sa 90pts

Team Gamma won this game pretty handily. Gamma charged in with EOVs and Drake and Krav's to take out a good chunk of Alpha's Minutemen. Meanwhile Beta rushed Gamma with Jotun and Saylind, and was rewarded by having their Saylind and Jotun bubbled. Gamma had thus removed Beta's ability to use the "summon and heal" tactic, as Beta didn't dare return Saylind to his base, for fear Gamma would use the bubble to summon his own troops there. Gamma did use Saylind to summon his own troops around a bit before finally summoning Drake next to Saylind and killing her. Gamma also used Jotun to wipe out most of the Legion before marching him into hot lava as a suicide. Squidy's final bubble was of Me-Burq-Sa, just for the hell of it. He then used Me-Burq to strike the killing blow on Marcus. Final actions of the game were the remaining 2 Krav's and Drake tearing through Me-Burq-Sa, and Team Beta making a desperate attempt to hold out with just Dund and Kelda (and not doing a bad job of it) before being smacked down by Sorgwen himself. Sorgwen was succesful 3 out 4 bubble attempts, with the one failure being an attempt to bubble Kelda. The strategy with Dund was an interesting one...player Beta had hoped to use him to remove order markers form Sorg, thus preventing usage of "manipulate."

For the second game, we did two armies of just 350 points.

Army I-Alpha
-SorGwen 110pts
-MacDirks 80pts
-Alastair 110pts
-Tarn Vikings 50pts

Army II-Beta
-Krav Maga 100pts
-Syvaris 100pts
-Morsbane 100pts
-Marro Warriors 50pts

This game was a little less of a beat-down. Sorg still took out more than his cost, but I think he nearly always will. Sorg bubbled Alastair, who wounded himself each round, and team Alpha charged in with the Tarns. Krav's tore them up pretty well....two Kravs and one Tarn left. Final Tarn hid behind a tree as The MacDirk's prepared to target Syvaris or Morsbane. Ultimately Morsbane negated Sorgwen, destroying his usefullness nad essentially ending the game. Sorgwen did manage to bubble Morsbane and use him to negate the Marro Warriors, who were then easily picked apart since they couldn't clone, and the Kravs, who then fell to the MacDirks and last Tarn. Sorgwen made attempts to bubble Syvaris but could not quite get there...he was shot badly before being negated.

Based on the results of the two games, I'd think his cost should rise up a tad....perhaps somewhere in the 125-150 range. Perhaps 135. He's just too game-changing to only be 110pts. I mean, clearly he's more effective and worthwhile than Dund, and Dund is only 110. Another alternative would be to lessen the chance of a Bubble...maybe just by 5-10%....or drop his life by one.

He's a great idea that needs some solid playtesting. I still agree with Reaper's question though....how much playtesting do we perform as a benchmark? I think we should, as a site, come up with some sort of procedure here...sort of like a Mercedes Benz certified pre-owned checklist. We test figure X in situations A, B, and C. Then against this, and that, and so on. That could be the grinder through which each figure is put, and then that figure's creator could say it "passed certification" or whatever, and folks would know that they were getting a unit that was thoroughly playtested instead of having to do it themselves.

It would be an interesting project I think....the HS custom certification test. Sure, it wouldn't be foolproof, but it would be nice.



Oh, and final question for GBob....how did Bale take disengagement attacks from her former teamates? Isn't it optional to roll for disengage? Why would your opponent roll for it?

[Fallen Templar]

Sorry bout that I'm posting during my study hall in school, I type faster than I write big prob for me

To sum it up. with Mimring bubbled it allowed another FireLine to go out and well as luck would have it not to many shields rolled on my part :(. With Jotun It allowed another wild swing to go and that wiped out one squad. My conclusion with both points is that large or huge figures should have a higher d-20 roll to compensate for more powerful abilities and stats

So you were palying a team game then? And your saying the team up strategy with sorgwen allowed a big powerful unit to strong arm his way through more units before dying?

Exactly

[truth]

jcb231
Thanks that's very helpful. I should be doing some playtesting of my own soon as well. It's great to hear that he seems to add a very fun strategic flavor to the game. I have no problem with doing any one of your three suggestions... I just want to get a bit of playtesting in myself as well to help support your results.

EDIT: Actually I don't think I'll raise his roll success. But rather take him down a life if he proves to be too powerful.

[truth]

Sorry bout that I'm posting during my study hall in school, I type faster than I write big prob for me

To sum it up. with Mimring bubbled it allowed another FireLine to go out and well as luck would have it not to many shields rolled on my part :(. With Jotun It allowed another wild swing to go and that wiped out one squad. My conclusion with both points is that large or huge figures should have a higher d-20 roll to compensate for more powerful abilities and stats

So you were palying a team game then? And your saying the team up strategy with sorgwen allowed a big powerful unit to strong arm his way through more units before dying?

Exactly

Upping the bubble to 10 or even 12 for friendly could work for me.

[reapersaurus]

Sorry bout that I'm posting during my study hall in school, I type faster than I write big prob for me

To sum it up. with Mimring bubbled it allowed another FireLine to go out and well as luck would have it not to many shields rolled on my part :(. With Jotun It allowed another wild swing to go and that wiped out one squad. My conclusion with both points is that large or huge figures should have a higher d-20 roll to compensate for more powerful abilities and stats

So you were palying a team game then? And your saying the team up strategy with sorgwen allowed a big powerful unit to strong arm his way through more units before dying?
Exactly

Upping the bubble to 10 or even 12 for friendly could work for me.powers point of order:
Why would the Sorgwen player waste a bubble on a friendly (much less benefit, as you've pointed out) if they could have almost-as-likely of chance to Bubble an opponent?

From a cost/benefit standpoint, if you give Sorgwen both abilities, you must give the friendly-bubble power a much better chance of succeeding, or else it is almost a waste of putting it on there.

The following is simply a situational example, not a dictate that this will always happen:
Decreasing his Life wouldn;t change his effectiveness in the event that he Bubbles a powerful enemy from 6 Range and then just stays behind his frontline defenders.

[jcb231]

I don't think his friendly bubbling needs to be upped at all if its used within your own army.

I think Sorgwen's undercost is due to the fact that he can bubble your opponent's figures and then use them whenever he wants...that's HUGE. Bubbling your own seems fairly minor. Bubbling a teammate is fairly powerful though, especially if you're using him to get cheap use out of a heavy hitter.....it's a hard balance to make on that one. Perhaps make it 16 for enemy figs OR teammates and 8 for your own army?

[truth]

I don't think his friendly bubbling needs to be upped at all if its used within your own army.

I think Sorgwen's undercost is due to the fact that he can bubble your opponent's figures and then use them whenever he wants...that's HUGE. Bubbling your own seems fairly minor. Bubbling a teammate is fairly powerful though, especially if you're using him to get cheap use out of a heavy hitter.....it's a hard balance to make on that one. Perhaps make it 16 for enemy figs OR teammates and 8 for your own army?

Yeah the teamates is the part where it can become very powerful... We would be running into forging some new wording there... but that's not really a problem.

[truth]

Sorry bout that I'm posting during my study hall in school, I type faster than I write big prob for me

To sum it up. with Mimring bubbled it allowed another FireLine to go out and well as luck would have it not to many shields rolled on my part :(. With Jotun It allowed another wild swing to go and that wiped out one squad. My conclusion with both points is that large or huge figures should have a higher d-20 roll to compensate for more powerful abilities and stats

So you were palying a team game then? And your saying the team up strategy with sorgwen allowed a big powerful unit to strong arm his way through more units before dying?
Exactly

Upping the bubble to 10 or even 12 for friendly could work for me.powers point of order:
Why would the Sorgwen player waste a bubble on a friendly (much less benefit, as you've pointed out) if they could have almost-as-likely of chance to Bubble an opponent?

From a cost/benefit standpoint, if you give Sorgwen both abilities, you must give the friendly-bubble power a much better chance of succeeding, or else it is almost a waste of putting it on there.

The following is simply a situational example, not a dictate that this will always happen:
Decreasing his Life wouldn;t change his effectiveness in the event that he Bubbles a powerful enemy from 6 Range and then just stays behind his frontline defenders.

I hear ya. The main thing for me is like in the case of Dead eye Dan or Sudema he's still a gamble. And his effectiveness is a big varient depending on whom he's up against.

Here are my concerns with changes:
1. Make his bubble too hard to get off and he dosn't get to make use of it and becomes a figure that stays in the box.
2. Make his points too high and your investing a lot of points in a gamble type figure (this is why I like Dead Eye much more than Sudema).

So if he is too powerful I'd like to try and shift it while still making him fun to play and not to HUGE an investment. (If this is possible, and I think that it is).

Again I'm going to give him some more playtime before I bother making changes... but from what I'm hearing so far I'm liking his functionality... so points may be the way to go.

[Rhydderch]

First in response to Reaper: it is true that Sorgwen can hide behind some frontline defenders but ranged units can still pick him off. Also with a range of only 6, a good number of melee attackers should be able to reach him the turn after he bubbles - especially since he does not have disengage or any other movement abilities. So think a decrease in his life would still be very relevant and I still think a good player should be able to limit the damage Sorgwen can do.

[jcb231]

"...If the chosen hero is a figure you control and you roll an 8 or higher.......If the chosen hero is any other player's figure and you roll a 16 or higher...."

Or something like that....that's just a starting point.

[truth]

"...If the chosen hero is a figure you control and you roll an 8 or higher.......If the chosen hero is any other player's figure and you roll a 16 or higher...."

Or something like that....that's just a starting point.

*nod* and a good one.

[reapersaurus]

First in response to Reaper: it is true that Sorgwen can hide behind some frontline defenders but ranged units can still pick him off. Also with a range of only 6, a good number of melee attackers should be able to reach him the turn after he bubbles - especially since he does not have disengage or any other movement abilities. So think a decrease in his life would still be very relevant and I still think a good player should be able to limit the damage Sorgwen can do.Point of strategy - the Sorgwen player with 2 ORder Markers on it can decide WHEN to come forward and attempt to Bubble.
A situation could commonly arise where he could move forward, when he sees that the opponent's unused order makers are on cards that aren't right near the front.

Unless the opponent happens to always have his next Order Marker placed on something within 6 spaces of Sorgwen's unknown-until-moved-to chosen attack point, than Sorgwen can regularly use his 2nd Order MArker to move back and out of much harm.

It seems like many times, people are pointing to strategic options that are very beneficial to the opponent as justifications of decreasing Sorgwen's power. For example, this example of Ryhd's uses an assumption that there will not only be a melee unit within move-range of Sorgwen after he Bubbles, but that the next Order MArker happens to be on that melee unit.

Since Sorgwen is the attacking unit, he can cHOOSE the best strategic times to activate his power. It's similar to the reason why active powers are typically considered better (more powerful) than passive powers : because the active power can be unleashed whenever the active player chooses the best time is - passive powers/aspects (like assuming a melee figure is near when the time comes, or that the next order marker is on it) are much harder to bring into play, since they are fundamentally reactionary, and dependant on unknowns to be able to be guessed properly to manufacture their situation to be present.

[truth]

I think it's important to figure out: On average how many points worth of damage will Sorgwen be able to do. Once an average is discovered (or something close to that) then I think we have a good point cost. I thought that would be 110... seems I may be wrong. I'm starting to lean into 130... maybe 140.

[jcb231]

I'd say that's much better than 110.

I think the "bubble and suicide" tactic alone justifies a cost of more than 110points. In any game in which there is lava, this guy becomes super valuable to the point of being a no-brainer draft pick (unless your opponent picks no high value heroes).

[justjohn]

Truth, most of the points have already been covered, but I think SorGwen is great. I don't think, looking at the card, and thinking instead of playtesting, that there are any problems with it.

He has the common 3/3 attack/defense/5 life shell that most official utility uniques come in. I think he is rather frail outside of his amazining ability-as he should be.

Giving Sorgwen's controller the ability to control figures that the opponent still has the ability to move and activate is great. I think it is very, very balanced. I do, however, think there should be a way for a bubbled critter to remove a bubble counter from itself, ie, attacking SorGwen successfully with the bubbled critter. Did that make sense?

This could make for a lot of monotonous back and forth between SorGwen and the bubbled figure. Maybe that is a good thing, maybe it isn't.

I do not think that adding ability to remove a bubble marker is a requirement, just a suggestion to sate the people that think SorGwen's ability/point cost are unbalanced. I'm not one of those people.

If she was priced over 120 points (I know she is currently 110) I wouldn't play with her. It's too low of a percent, too high of cost, and too vunerable of a unit for it to be more costly. The bubbled figure can still be moved by the enemy player, I think that is what balances out this ability quite nicely.

Great stuff, Truth. I really enjoy your customs.

-jj

Aside

[jcb231]

I don't think that the ability to "unbubble" is the right course of action.

I'm sticking to my guns on raising his cost to about 130 as Truth suggested, then altering the wording on his bubble power as I suggested. With those changes he'd be spot-on I think.

Don't underestimate the astonishing strength of his special ability.

[gibberish_47]

My first time venturing into the customs section, be kind. :wink:

OK, I actually don't really see any problem with his point cost, even with the lava suicide thing. If I was playing him, I would rush him with a squad or two, or just shoot him when he gets fairly close.

Too bad the point cost can't be different for team games and 1 vs. 1 games. That's the only small problem I see with him, bubbling your teammate's figures.


And jcb231, don't worry about jason, he will be back. You can count on that. (At least until he's banned again.0

[Grungebob]

"...If the chosen hero is a figure you control and you roll an 8 or higher.......If the chosen hero is any other player's figure and you roll a 16 or higher...."

Or something like that....that's just a starting point.Excellent improvement!! Wow this thread has gotten good!! My god people are playtesting customs!!!!! YES!! Pinch me!!

[jcb231]

I've always playtested customs for better or for worse....probably the biggest dispute I got into with Truth over at HQ was when I really ripped on his unicorn after playtesting it....he disagreed with me, we argued, I just shut up and rarely commented on his units after that. Now I've moved on, we're both in a new home, and I figure we can all just be happy and hug and dance and frolic in the joy that is Heroscapery. I think we're all man enough to take good and bad criticism now, whether we agree with it or not....lord knows I'll accept any kind of criticism at all.

I do agree with Reaper though that a certain amount of playtesting can be done in the mind by an experienced player. Most of us have played enough to know what works and what doesn't....I playtested this guy with as open a mind as I could, but I kinda knew what the results would be...I just didn't know precisely what point raise I would be inclined to recommend until after.

A good solid unit, Truth. Looking forward to seeing that one I sent you the PM about....

[truth]

I've always playtested customs for better or for worse....probably the biggest dispute I got into with Truth over at HQ was when I really ripped on his unicorn after playtesting it....he disagreed with me, we argued, I just shut up and rarely commented on his units after that. Now I've moved on, we're both in a new home, and I figure we can all just be happy and hug and dance and frolic in the joy that is Heroscapery. I think we're all man enough to take good and bad criticism now, whether we agree with it or not....lord knows I'll accept any kind of criticism at all.

I do agree with Reaper though that a certain amount of playtesting can be done in the mind by an experienced player. Most of us have played enough to know what works and what doesn't....I playtested this guy with as open a mind as I could, but I kinda knew what the results would be...I just didn't know precisely what point raise I would be inclined to recommend until after.

A good solid unit, Truth. Looking forward to seeing that one I sent you the PM about....

I don't recall you ever having said you testplayed the uni... but we've played her a couple dozen times and if anything she's worth fewer points. (see Theratcus)

[jcb231]

I did say I playtested it....and you and I still had words. :-P

In the wake of Theracus one might assume carries should be cheaper, but I think Theracus is very underpriced. Plus your unicorn healed automatically....but...hey...damn you Truth you're getting me going again! :-)

So...let's see....Squidboy. Awesome. Have you playtested him yourself yet?

[reapersaurus]

I still think that unicorn should have a Charge attack, and doesn;t strike for enough damage or scare the opponent. :D

But then again, I usually prefer units that can do some damage..... ;)

And jcb - man, you REALLY should give your thoughts on some customs more (if you have time - i know that's in short supply noawadays. :( )

Interesting that playtesting determined exactly what I opined..... :lol;
Of course, getting 3 out of 4 Bubble attempts of course makes the playtest not common, but the likelihood is always there for Sorgwen to affect the game like that. Which is why units that have game-changing abilities are more expensive or limited than other units.

[jcb231]

May I ask you a personal question Reaper?

What do you do for a living? I don't think I've seen many threads where you haven't complained about your lack of time. You post a heck of a lot, yet you always make a point of saying what short supply your time is in. I'm just wondering what keeps you so busy, being the curious fellow I am.

Oh, and I rarely give thoughts on customs because I got lots of folks ***** whenever I would just give a flat out criticism. Lots of people don't want negative views of their stuff, even though they post it publically. I may start reviewing more since most of the customizers here tend to be the old guard and have weathered a few storms....they know that negative criticism is the best feedback to get.

I rarely post words of praise for units other than...."looks good" or some lame thing like that. I just don't think that helps you as a creator at all. If someone popped into my D&D thread and just said "Yeah, that's great" and left again I'd thank them but I'd be at the same place, creatively....I'd have gotten no input on where the faults are, and that's probably the most important thing to know when creating a unit. Where are the faults and how can I balance them?

[truth]

I rarely post words of praise for units other than...."looks good" or some lame thing like that. I just don't think that helps you as a creator at all. If someone popped into my D&D thread and just said "Yeah, that's great" and left again I'd thank them but I'd be at the same place, creatively....I'd have gotten no input on where the faults are, and that's probably the most important thing to know when creating a unit. Where are the faults and how can I balance them?

I disagree. It definetly helps to know what people like as well as what they don't like.

[truth]

Just played two games with Sorgwen. He did zero good both games. The first game he mind bubbled DW8k but couldn't manage to take down a single figure with him before sorgwen got killed... I lost. The second game I won before he ever saw any action. Hopefully will get a couple more in if I can get anyone over here before we play Descent Journey's in the Dark.

[jcb231]

I rarely post words of praise for units other than...."looks good" or some lame thing like that. I just don't think that helps you as a creator at all. If someone popped into my D&D thread and just said "Yeah, that's great" and left again I'd thank them but I'd be at the same place, creatively....I'd have gotten no input on where the faults are, and that's probably the most important thing to know when creating a unit. Where are the faults and how can I balance them?

I disagree. It definetly helps to know what people like as well as what they don't like.

To each his own I guess. I've just never really gotten anything out of positive criticism, except in the context of "I like this because of blank, and therefore I think you should focus more on blank and less on the other aspects." or similar statements.

To me, negative reviews are the heart of the process, both in HS and art in general. When I do a project that people have very vocal objections to, I learn more than I do from the dozen previous projects people loved.

I had a teacher who used to say "People never tell you their true feelings unless you do something they don't like." and I've found that to be largely true....negative criticisms are more honest.

But since you like getting both kinds of critiques, I'll truthfully inform you that I've liked many of your previous units! The dwarf especially, and the guy you haven't put up on the site yet that I PM'd you about, and the undead units. Great stuff. I like ol' Calamari-head as well.

[jcb231]

Just played two games with Sorgwen. He did zero good both games. The first game he mind bubbled DW8k but couldn't manage to take down a single figure with him before sorgwen got killed... I lost. The second game I won before he ever saw any action. Hopefully will get a couple more in if I can get anyone over here before we play Descent Journey's in the Dark.

Lol....is it just me, or do you have a running theme of never having good luck with your own units? I seem to recall similar remarks from the HQ days. :-P

[truth]

Just played two games with Sorgwen. He did zero good both games. The first game he mind bubbled DW8k but couldn't manage to take down a single figure with him before sorgwen got killed... I lost. The second game I won before he ever saw any action. Hopefully will get a couple more in if I can get anyone over here before we play Descent Journey's in the Dark.

Lol....is it just me, or do you have a running theme of never having good luck with your own units? I seem to recall similar remarks from the HQ days. :-P

If it's luck thats a problem it's the 20-sider that kills me :).

[reapersaurus]

I had a teacher who used to say "People never tell you their true feelings unless you do something they don't like." and I've found that to be largely true....negative criticisms are more honest.You must LOVE me, then. :)

But seriously - I agree with your teacher, and have always tried to engage honesty in customs reviews. Blowing smoke up a designer's behind doesn;t gain much in the long run.

However, I agree with truth, (and keep in mind, him accepting constructive feedback a.k.a. negative reviews and using them to enhance his customs is one of the main reasons this HS customs community has grown in quality so much) that it is also important to point out what is good about the custom, and which customs ya like, so the creator knows what direction he succeeded in in your eyes.

and truth - what you are seeing with your playtests is why playtesting IMO is a much-overappreciated form of customs analysis - WAY too dependant on situational randomness.
At that rate, you could play 10 games before you get a remotely accurate estimate of Sorgwen's power. Heck, from your playtesting so far, it sounds like he could be 50 points and not be a problem with the game, since he seldom does much. :?:
If so, that's my point - playtesting is reliant on MANY many more playtest sessions than most of us have the resources for. :(

[shakey_snake]

If so, that's my point - playtesting is reliant on MANY many more playtest sessions than most of us have the resources for. :(Another thing to consider is that the more powers a custom has, the more it needs to be playtested to find it's right cost.

[truth]

If so, that's my point - playtesting is reliant on MANY many more playtest sessions than most of us have the resources for. :(Another thing to consider is that the more powers a custom has, the more it needs to be playtested to find it's right cost.

Or the more it's based on luck. I'm in no way saying it's conclusive. But after multiple playtest you start to get an average for what a unit can and will do.

[jcb231]

Just played two games with Sorgwen. He did zero good both games. The first game he mind bubbled DW8k but couldn't manage to take down a single figure with him before sorgwen got killed... I lost. The second game I won before he ever saw any action. Hopefully will get a couple more in if I can get anyone over here before we play Descent Journey's in the Dark.

Lol....is it just me, or do you have a running theme of never having good luck with your own units? I seem to recall similar remarks from the HQ days. :-P

If it's luck thats a problem it's the 20-sider that kills me :).

"We've secretly replaced Truth's d20 with a weighted novelty die. Let's see if he notices."

:-)

[truth]

ARUKAR THE MIGHTY

BIO: Hailing from a world struck by war of devastatingly cataclysmic proportions, Arukar learned to survive by intimidating those weaker than him and impressing those few stronger. He wandered the broken, barren wastes of his home with no one to depend on but himself, and consequently developed a dog eat dog mentality, scavenging everything of use, but never so much that it would slow him down. Even in Valhalla, he prefers to eschew most armor, instead electing to inspire awe and fear by charging into battle half-naked, showing off his spectacular musculature. Made almost ridiculous rugged by surviving the toxins and other inhospitable traits of his native environment, Arukar now serves Einar, and though he tends to despise strict military form and routine, he is not without his skill or wit, for he learns quickly from each battle and adapts to the physiologies and strategies of his foes, and with a few kills to work his bloodlust and knowledge of the enemy up, he can proceed to shred through the remainder like a scythe through wheat.

CARD:
http://www.screamingtruth.com/photos/albums/userpics/10001/arukar_the_mighty_copy.jpg

FIGURE: Mage Knight Baran Skullcracker (http://gamingetc.safeshopper.com/1661/17091.htm?128) $1.99

Bio written by: Karkadinn

[Doc_Savage]

Fun idea. I like the use of experience to gain extra powers.

Why not split the Battle Fury power to just contain the language about getting a marker for each kill?

Then you could say, "Aggrivated Frenzy. You may not use this power until Arukar has 2 Experience Markers. (power description.)"

That way you could build his power. I also think you could call them Fury Markers...

Then Mighty Swing could need 3 markers. That way you could have the rewards for kills build.

[shakey_snake]

Cool. The wording does seem "wordy".

[truth]

That way you could build his power. I also think you could call them Fury Markers...

I like the idea of making the Samurai's experience markers more universal.

[Rhydderch]

Nice card Truth! I agree that it would be cool if he got the abilities at different times. Maybe he could receive Mighty Swing after he picks up 2 experience markers and Frenzy after 3. Maybe Battlefury can be its own ability too =)

Either way nice way to make use of those experience markers for another card. =)

[jcb231]

I agree with the first power at 2, second power at 3 line of thinking.

[truth]

RAPTORIANS

A New Colloborative effort from Grungebob and Myself:
I came up with the idea of developing this race of "Raptorians" mentioned to have enslaved the Venocs in the offical bios. I collabo'd with GB on it and they ended up developing into these scavanger types. The hardest part was finding the minis, and I actually broke my own rules in choosing these minis. usually I won't use minis that aren't pre-painted, but these aren't highly expensive like Rackham mini's So at least they got that going for them ;). So for those who may want to put fort the investment of painting some minis I bring you Vultar and the Carrion Warriors:

CARDS:

http://www.screamingtruth.com/photos/albums/userpics/10001/Vultar.jpg
http://www.screamingtruth.com/photos/albums/userpics/10001/Carrion_Warriors.jpg

FIGURES: Crocoidile Games - Aegyptus - Nekharu Warrior -WGE-006a (http://www.crocodilegames.com/secure/item_details.asp?CatID=24&SubID=35&Page=1&pageHeading=Items%20-%20Miniatures%20-%20Aegyptus), Nekharu Warrior - WGE-006b (http://www.crocodilegames.com/secure/item_details.asp?CatID=24&SubID=35&Page=2&pageHeading=Items%20-%20Miniatures%20-%20Aegyptus), Nekharu Warrior - WGE-006c (http://www.crocodilegames.com/secure/item_details.asp?CatID=24&SubID=35&Page=3&pageHeading=Items%20-%20Miniatures%20-%20Aegyptus), Nekharu Warrior - WGE-006d (http://www.crocodilegames.com/secure/item_details.asp?CatID=24&SubID=35&Page=4&pageHeading=Items%20-%20Miniatures%20-%20Aegyptus), and Nekharu Hero - WGE-117 (http://www.crocodilegames.com/secure/item_details.asp?CatID=24&SubID=35&Page=11&pageHeading=Items%20-%20Miniatures%20-%20Aegyptus).
The warriors are 3 bucks a piece and the Heros is 6 bucks.

[netherspirit]

You punks, I have been working on the raptorians! for a little while now! You beat me. The link to Crocodile Games that CA linked got me renewed on them since the figures are so awesome over there.

I was just needing figures and found them today, thanks to CA. I was gonna use the Hawk headed ones instead of the vulture ones.

I feel so defeated...

[truth]

You punks, I have been working on the raptorians! for a little while now! You beat me.

Actually I picture the Raptorians having diffrent sub-species. I'm going to explore more That are inspired by diffrenet kinds of birds. The Crocodile Games has some based on cranes and others based on swallows. Each sub-type will have a different way of getting the job done ;). I'd be interested in seeing your take on some Raptorians.

[Karkadinn]

Love the concept. the figure choices, and most of the implementation. However, it seems like you priced the warrios so high primarily because of an ability on another card. Wouldn't it be better to cost the leader high, so that you could still have the reasonable option of using the warriors without their leader and not get screwed over pointswise?
The hands on the figs don't really match the claw-weapons the Venocs use, but that's okay, I forgive you. ;D

[netherspirit]

The hands on the figs don't really match the claw-weapons the Venocs use, but that's okay, I forgive you. ;D

I think the Venoc's claws are actually the Beaks of the Raptorians.

[reapersaurus]

Inventive use of an alternate, not-certain bonding. :thumbsup:

The Carrion Warriors are overpriced by more than double.
Compare them to the Tarn Vikings, who have that nifty mobility power and are only 50 points.
These guys should be 40 points max. (am i missing something?)

[truth]

Love the concept. the figure choices, and most of the implementation. However, it seems like you priced the warrios so high primarily because of an ability on another card. Wouldn't it be better to cost the leader high, so that you could still have the reasonable option of using the warriors without their leader and not get screwed over pointswise?
The hands on the figs don't really match the claw-weapons the Venocs use, but that's okay, I forgive you. ;D

Actually I costed them at 100 because they are a 4 man squad. I tried to disperse the cost of the hero's ability over the two cards... But come to think of it compared to the Anubian Wolves and the Tarns... maybe I should bump that down... *changing*

EDIT: also I'm kinda still going on points that we had in place when we still thought they would fly... :(

[truth]

Okay changes made. Thanks for keeping me on the ball. (Actually GB probably would have caught it if I would have waited on him, but I was so darn excited about them).

EDITED: Okay went back and made another change. Was thinking on it, and looking at some of the officals units. The combo now cost 120.

[reapersaurus]

I think they're still too expensive, but glad to see them lowered some.

The hero would go down in one volley of 4th Mass fire, and the squad is unquestionably weaker than the Tarns, so how could they be priced the same as them?

On the cards - "it's" is spelled "its" and IIRC on the hero's first power, you have a capitalized "You" when it should be lower case.

It's refreshing to see units that are so simple to estimate their costs, since they have a limited set of powers. Good call on that. Just need to get the costs balanced agains the official units, and slip these bad boys right alongside the official Venocs as nemesis.

And for D&D players, those look a lot like vrocks:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/alumni_vrock_2nd.jpg
miniature is here:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/alumni_vrock_MI.jpg
It's from Archfiends, with a 360 degree view here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mg/20040203a

[Turtleboy]

To be more In sway with offical units maby it should be Carrion Feast 1 (for the squad) and Carrion Feast 2 (for the hero)


Id like to know how you "Improve" your eating :wink:.

[truth]

I think they're still too expensive, but glad to see them lowered some.

The hero would go down in one volley of 4th Mass fire, and the squad is unquestionably weaker than the Tarns, so how could they be priced the same as them?

On the cards - "it's" is spelled "its" and IIRC on the hero's first power, you have a capitalized "You" when it should be lower case.

It's refreshing to see units that are so simple to estimate their costs, since they have a limited set of powers. Good call on that. Just need to get the costs balanced agains the official units, and slip these bad boys right alongside the official Venocs as nemesis.

And for D&D players, those look a lot like vrocks:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/alumni_vrock_2nd.jpg
miniature is here:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/alumni_vrock_MI.jpg
It's from Archfiends, with a 360 degree view here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mg/20040203a

Thanks for the error catches reaps, I'll get to them later tonight (went back to work for a bit). As far as costing. Check them in comparison to Sir Denrik and his Knights.

And darnit I love that Mini reaps. I could have kept flying too! It's unfortunate that D&D and Mage Knight don't offer much room for squad construction. That would be the only thing killing me... well that and the $20 price tag. Yikes!

[truth]

To be more In sway with offical units maby it should be Carrion Feast 1 (for the squad) and Carrion Feast 2 (for the hero)


Id like to know how you "Improve" your eating :wink:.
That's a good call TB. I think I'll do that.

[CupidsArt]

Raptorians yay more croc/games minis, :) I actually wouldn't mind playing these guys. Most customs I read and never play, but these guys are sweat!!!!

[truth]

Raptorians yay more croc/games minis, :) I actually wouldn't mind playing these guys. Most customs I read and never play, but these guys are sweat!!!!

If you do I want to see pics of yours all painted up. I'm going to get a set and paint them to the best of my ability... but it's nowhere near your skill.

[CupidsArt]

Raptorians yay more croc/games minis, :) I actually wouldn't mind playing these guys. Most customs I read and never play, but these guys are sweat!!!!

If you do I want to see pics of yours all painted up. I'm going to get a set and paint them to the best of my ability... but it's nowhere near your skill.

I've been trying a few new things in painting. Vallejo's Game colors are great, they have a much finer texture and pigment but are very opaique so you still only need use very little.

A really easy way to add that real emotion to a miniature is to put down darks first and then build up the highlight areas with progressivly lighter paint.

I'll make a tutorial when I do my Sobe-Khai. :D

[netherspirit]

I will be posting mine as soon as they are good enough to go along-side yours. You're causing me step up my game, which is awesome!

Your raptorians are so thematic that I need to go back and rethink them and get them up to par :)

[truth]

Made some of the suggested changes. Took another good long look at all of the melee squads available and thier specials and thier cost... and I think what I have now is about right.

[justjohn]

I can't get over how cartoony those guys look. It's great. Vultar's card looks really really good, not the stats, but the actual picture, it looks like art work, like a drawn picture.

The units themselves are interesting. They seem like a great choice for the points, and work well off of eachother. They're actually really neat.

In all reality, if these were prepainted, cheaper minis, would you have made them a common squad? I can see hordes of these guys being used, and having more raptorian hero types.

I'm interested in see how your Raptorians look finished, the figures that is.

Good work, as usual, Truth.

[truth]

Okay after talking to my partner in crime. Raptorians changed yet again! :P

[Fallen Templar]

Truth the unit is a neat idea but don't ya think we may get offical Raptorians :?:

[truth]

Truth the unit is a neat idea but don't ya think we may get offical Raptorians :?:

To be honest with ya... no. I think the mention of them was just to explain away the thing in the venoc's hands, rather than a foretelling of a future units like some of the other bios. But even if they do, who cares, we've got custom Samurai custom elves, custom soulborgs, and the list goes on.

[quixotequest]

I like the Raptorians, Truth. Simple yet a little unique. A nit: technically a Hero wouldn't be carrion until it is dead. As to the squad "carrion" bonus that works well enough. . .

[truth]

I like the Raptorians, Truth. Simple yet a little unique. A nit: technically a Hero wouldn't be carrion until it is dead. As to the squad "carrion" bonus that works well enough. . .

This is true, but you know it just didn't have the same game changing effect when I had them adding bonuses to attacking dead figures.

[truth]

RAPTORIAN ARCHERS

Another team up with GB reveals the next eveloution in the Raptorians. As I mentioned before I picture this race having very diffrent looks, like under the raptorian species are diffrent sub-species.

CARDS:
http://www.screamingtruth.com/photos/albums/userpics/10001/Talon_Archers.jpg
http://www.screamingtruth.com/photos/albums/userpics/10001/Falcor.jpg

FIGURES: Crocodile Games - Aegyptus - Heru Archer-WGE-014a (http://www.crocodilegames.com/secure/item_details.asp?CatID=24&SubID=24&Page=8&pageHeading=Items%20-%20Miniatures%20-%20Aegyptus), Heru Archer-WGE-014b (http://www.crocodilegames.com/secure/item_details.asp?CatID=24&SubID=24&Page=9&pageHeading=Items%20-%20Miniatures%20-%20Aegyptus), Heru Archer - WGE-014c (http://www.crocodilegames.com/secure/item_details.asp?CatID=24&SubID=24&Page=10&pageHeading=Items%20-%20Miniatures%20-%20Aegyptus), and Heru Archer Capitan-WGE-314a (http://www.crocodilegames.com/secure/item_details.asp?CatID=24&SubID=24&Page=20&pageHeading=Items%20-%20Miniatures%20-%20Aegyptus).

[Turtleboy]

Wow man, Simply wow. Awsome job on these guys but their Scout ability might be a bit over powerd.

[S] [..] [..] [..] [..] [..] [S]


Thats just between 2. You could have 2 hiding behind ruins, with a point man they can attack who the point man is seeing and not get harmed.

Mabye lower for the squad on their abililty range? (the hero is a hero so should powerful).

[bad_calvin]

As always .... Well done truth!

The Keeper of the Skies is an intersting ability. Giving an advantage to having "lower ground".

[LilNewbie]

Awesome cards! I'm liking the egyptian theme running through them.

Newb.

[truth]

Wow man, Simply wow. Awsome job on these guys but their Scout ability might be a bit over powerd.

[S] [..] [..] [..] [..] [..] [S]


Thats just between 2. You could have 2 hiding behind ruins, with a point man they can attack who the point man is seeing and not get harmed.

Mabye lower for the squad on their abililty range? (the hero is a hero so should powerful).

That's the idea. Hide two of them from harms way and put one on point man. This dosn't make the squad invinsible or anything, because once that point man is taken down the other two can't attack or have to send out another pointman, who can again be taken down.

[justjohn]

Nice addition to your growing Raptorians.

Keen-eyed is so good. I would say there should be some distance limit to it, but considering that there are only 3 of them, they're unique, and their attack is only 3, it balances itself.

It is a scary thought though, having 3 of these guys perched up on high-ground all over the board, they will make great tower gaurds when the castles come out.

Great work as usual.

-jj

[truth]

Nice addition to your growing Raptorians.

Keen-eyed is so good. I would say there should be some distance limit to it, but considering that there are only 3 of them, they're unique, and their attack is only 3, it balances itself.

It is a scary thought though, having 3 of these guys perched up on high-ground all over the board, they will make great tower gaurds when the castles come out.

Great work as usual.

-jj

Thanks JJ, notice there is a distance limit on the Keen-Eyed. It still requires that you have range on the figure, and it requires the scout be within 6 spaces. So you can't hide your other two across the board and have them firing 20 spaces because of the scout. Was this not clear in the wording? Or did you mean there should be a limit on how far from the scout the others should be? In other words They can potentially split from thier scout get all the way on the other side of the target and be firing. That seems unlikely to start, but beyond that I don't think it will have any better an effect than if they stuck close to thier scout. And as far as realism, I picture the scout letting out a screach in this raptorian language that the enemies can't understand, contained with in the screech is firing orders. :)

[justjohn]

Nope, I just totally missed the 6 space gap limit when I was reading the card. It is still a cool ability, just not quite as powerful as I had originally thought.

[ChaosChild]

Very nice!

One concern though. While the Keen-Eyed Scout ability should allow for shooting over trees and ruins, it should not allow for shooting around obstacles. Perhaps it could be a special attack that has a lob value if you can't work it in to a regular ability. I'll have to think on that. I may have a beter suggestion later.

[truth]

Very nice!

One concern though. While the Keen-Eyed Scout ability should allow for shooting over trees and ruins, it should not allow for shooting around obstacles. Perhaps it could be a special attack that has a lob value if you can't work it in to a regular ability. I'll have to think on that. I may have a beter suggestion later.

So far there is nothing on the heroscape board that goes up into infinity (unless you count a carrviago board :) ) It's pretty much a given that they are shooting over. It's not a special attack so there is no reason to put lob on it, and if I go into cannot shoot over such and such height etc it'll get wordy. 99% of the time it will not seem awkward (just like 99% of the time Drake will never need to go up 25 levels at once.) For that other 1% use your imagination, play it off as it not being real life just a game mechanic, Don't use them on said extremely tall board, or make up a house rule for them on that board. I'd rather sacrafice the 1% inacurracy than make the card overly wordy when it dosn't really NEED to be.

[reapersaurus]

I'd rather sacrafice the 1% inacurracy than make the card overly wordy when it dosn't really NEED to be.Get with the program, truth!
Don't you realize that it is the card designer's responsibility to spend precious word space to overly-detail a card with text that is only needed for 1% of the situation/population? :lol:

:headshake:

(with this joke, I'm not saying THIS question is invalid - this is just poking fun at recent rules lawyer mentalities cropping up in Heroscape that WILL render it impossible to make a card without either making the abilities ridiculously simplistic and uncreative, or the abilities will read so clunky, because of the excessive clarifications that should be obvious)

[atmospro]

Truth very nice implementation of the spotting mechanic I develop with DW1028 and the Zettain Gun Drones.

One question though on the Sighting power. If I read that correctly these guys get +2 dice at a small height advantage and +3 at a large advantage. If so it might be a little too much. Why not remove the sighting and go with the Keeper of the Skies power on the Falcor's card. That seems far more balanced.

Anyway very nice figures and nice little sub group going

[truth]

Truth very nice implementation of the spotting mechanic I develop with DW1028 and the Zettain Gun Drones.

One question though on the Sighting power. If I read that correctly these guys get +2 dice at a small height advantage and +3 at a large advantage. If so it might be a little too much. Why not remove the sighting and go with the Keeper of the Skies power on the Falcor's card. That seems far more balanced.

Anyway very nice figures and nice little sub group going

Yes sighting is found on the microcorp agents. I used it more as a balancing act than anything. I was going to have them have a 3 attack and I decided no... but 2 seemed too low... so I said to myself what's between 2 and 3? 2 and a half, or only two attack down low but 3 attack plus height up high :).

[Grungebob]

This is a good discussion. I'm glad these powers are getting a look because these guys turned out so good. COLLABORATE!!

[atmospro]

Yes sighting is found on the microcorp agents. I used it more as a balancing act than anything. I was going to have them have a 3 attack and I decided no... but 2 seemed too low... so I said to myself what's between 2 and 3? 2 and a half, or only two attack down low but 3 attack plus height up high :).

Oh Yea, I don't know where my head is today!

[ChaosChild]

Very nice!

One concern though. While the Keen-Eyed Scout ability should allow for shooting over trees and ruins, it should not allow for shooting around obstacles. Perhaps it could be a special attack that has a lob value if you can't work it in to a regular ability. I'll have to think on that. I may have a beter suggestion later.

So far there is nothing on the heroscape board that goes up into infinity (unless you count a carrviago board :) ) It's pretty much a given that they are shooting over. It's not a special attack so there is no reason to put lob on it, and if I go into cannot shoot over such and such height etc it'll get wordy. 99% of the time it will not seem awkward (just like 99% of the time Drake will never need to go up 25 levels at once.) For that other 1% use your imagination, play it off as it not being real life just a game mechanic, Don't use them on said extremely tall board, or make up a house rule for them on that board. I'd rather sacrafice the 1% inacurracy than make the card overly wordy when it dosn't really NEED to be.

So the arrows have small Raptorian hummingbird pilots. I can live with that. :P I was also thinking of over-hangs.

[Joah]

Wow. I just read all 16 pages. I rarely hit this side of the boards. I'm not really against customs, not at all. I love the "Universe" already created, and have yet to playtest all the "Canon" characters. So, while I have several D&D mini's attached to HS bases, I haven't given much thought (until now), of working more in the custom realm. Truth, I very much like the cards featured on this thread. I see the link to Croc Games, but have a question about the figs "actual" scale. It says 20mm on base. Could you post a pic of the Raptorians or Carrion warriors next to the Vipers or something. I know, seems pretty anal, but if the scale doesn't match...drives me crazy. I'm assuming they do. Like I said, I really like the idea. I want to playtest them.http://upload4.postimage.org/515792/000_0102.jpg (http://upload4.postimage.org/515792/photo_hosting.html)

[Grungebob]

They are to scale. My local game store carries them.

[Joah]

Cool. Thanks GB. I'll get them soon.

[truth]

Very nice!

One concern though. While the Keen-Eyed Scout ability should allow for shooting over trees and ruins, it should not allow for shooting around obstacles. Perhaps it could be a special attack that has a lob value if you can't work it in to a regular ability. I'll have to think on that. I may have a beter suggestion later.

So far there is nothing on the heroscape board that goes up into infinity (unless you count a carrviago board :) ) It's pretty much a given that they are shooting over. It's not a special attack so there is no reason to put lob on it, and if I go into cannot shoot over such and such height etc it'll get wordy. 99% of the time it will not seem awkward (just like 99% of the time Drake will never need to go up 25 levels at once.) For that other 1% use your imagination, play it off as it not being real life just a game mechanic, Don't use them on said extremely tall board, or make up a house rule for them on that board. I'd rather sacrafice the 1% inacurracy than make the card overly wordy when it dosn't really NEED to be.

So the arrows have small Raptorian hummingbird pilots. I can live with that. :P I was also thinking of over-hangs.

Ahhh overhangs *eats foot* Okay yeah... but just for simplicity's sake, they can do it. :)

[truth]

Wow. I just read all 16 pages. I rarely hit this side of the boards. I'm not really against customs, not at all. I love the "Universe" already created, and have yet to playtest all the "Canon" characters. So, while I have several D&D mini's attached to HS bases, I haven't given much thought (until now), of working more in the custom realm. Truth, I very much like the cards featured on this thread. I see the link to Croc Games, but have a question about the figs "actual" scale. It says 20mm on base. Could you post a pic of the Raptorians or Carrion warriors next to the Vipers or something. I know, seems pretty anal, but if the scale doesn't match...drives me crazy. I'm assuming they do. Like I said, I really like the idea. I want to playtest them.http://upload4.postimage.org/515792/000_0102.jpg (http://upload4.postimage.org/515792/photo_hosting.html)

Awesome! Very glad to hear it. You can click on the link in my sig to check out my full collection.

[LilNewbie]

http://www.screamingtruth.com/photos/albums/userpics/10001/SorGwen_copy.jpg



I love the idea of this character but don't have the Mindflayer figure from D&D so this is the figure I'll use for SorGwen:

http://www.wizkidsgames.com/images/figures/Rotating/HMUL/HMUL_049.jpg

Mysterio Marvel Heroclix Ultimates (# 49, 50, 51 )

Newb.

[truth]

http://www.screamingtruth.com/photos/albums/userpics/10001/SorGwen_copy.jpg



I love the idea of this character but don't have the Mindflayer figure from D&D so this is the figure I'll use for SorGwen:

http://www.wizkidsgames.com/images/figures/Rotating/HMUL/HMUL_049.jpg

Mysterio Marvel Heroclix Ultimates (# 49, 50, 51 )

Newb.

Great Alt fig for those with heroclix. Thanks for that newb :).

[reapersaurus]

actually, this is quite a coincidence, since I just yesterday decided that the figure I would proxy for SorGwen is the Dolgaunt Monk, which I think is an easy-to-get Uncommon from D&D's Underdark expansion:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/underdark_gallery/Dolgaunt_Monk.jpg

I got one for $.50

[LilNewbie]

actually, this is quite a coincidence, since I just yesterday decided that the figure I would proxy for SorGwen is the Dolgaunt Monk, which I think is an easy-to-get Uncommon from D&D's Underdark expansion:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/underdark_gallery/Dolgaunt_Monk.jpg

I got one for $.50

Nice choice, Reaper...hmmm...might have one of those already.

Newb.

[truth]

My newest creation is up for grabs as a prize at the ohio tourney. I found this guy in a box of mage knight stuff and instantly knew it would be perfect for an orc. The dino type thing he was riding on was brown, the orc's face was grey, the armor was silver, he had a tiny little axe so I modded it onto a spare viking spear to make it something usable from a mount. Basically the entire thing is repainted so the colors fit in with the existing orcs. The dino color came out a little too blue, but its not too bad.

http://www.heroscapers.com/oldgallery/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Belrak_pic.jpg
http://www.heroscapers.com/oldgallery/albums/userpics/10001/Belrak.jpg

[netherspirit]

Very cool! I like him. I really don't have any criticisms for him because he is damn near perfect...

[Grungebob]

Wow!! Love this custom and I have the miniature so will be playing him soon.. I echo what Netherspirit says. Darn perfect!!

[CornPuff]

That's an awesome mini. I think the dino came out great!

About the card.... I don't see any problems.

Cool! :thumbsup:

[Doc_Savage]

Well... not 100% perfect...

Orc Archer Enhancement... The 2nd use of "additional" has an extra "l"

But he is good.

[AgentX-127]

That is one great custom. You could have fooled me into thinking it was official. And I want it.

I am pretty jealous...your tourney has some kick ass prizes, and I wish I could spend 10 hours driving there, but it cannot be, so, I hope it finds a good home with somebody who loves orcs as much a I do.

[Karkadinn]

Hmm, is there a reason he has disengage, besides the fact that all orcs other than Grimnak have it? He just doesn't seem very... disengagey... to me. I think he'd be more interesting with a different kind of special, official or custom, in that spot instead. He just seems so generic. @_@

[toddrew]

Cool addition to the orc armada! Comparing to Tornak, though, I think he should be 110+ (unless one thinks Tornak overpriced :) ), even with the drawback on the attack, still more powerful, better defense, similar bonding compatibility/squad boost.

[reapersaurus]

Well, the actual figure before repainting looks like this:

http://www.wizkidsgames.com/images/figures/Rotating/MKWW/MKWW_110.gif

I've got him, and other nice ones from that expansion, and he never made me think "Heroscape orc", even when I put them side-by-side.

There IS a set of MK figs that have always made me think of a HS orc, and that's because these guys have the EXACT same color:
http://www.wizkidsgames.com/images/figures/Rotating/MKWW/MKWW_123.gif

http://www.wizkidsgames.com/images/figures/Rotating/MKWW/MKWW_129.gif

Here would be the ground hero
http://www.wizkidsgames.com/images/figures/Rotating/MKWW/MKWW_048.gif

These all look great in person, BTW.
While this pic sucks, these swooping snipers really kick butt and seem very orc-ish to me (longer mouths, obviously)
http://www.wizkidsgames.com/images/figures/Rotating/MKWW/MKWW_126.gif

[truth]

Well, the actual figure before repainting looks like this:

http://www.wizkidsgames.com/images/figures/Rotating/MKWW/MKWW_110.gif

I've got him, and other nice ones from that expansion, and he never made me think "Heroscape orc", even when I put them side-by-side.

There IS a set of MK figs that have always made me think of a HS orc, and that's because these guys have the EXACT same color:
http://www.wizkidsgames.com/images/figures/Rotating/MKWW/MKWW_123.gif

http://www.wizkidsgames.com/images/figures/Rotating/MKWW/MKWW_129.gif

Here would be the ground hero
http://www.wizkidsgames.com/images/figures/Rotating/MKWW/MKWW_048.gif

These all look great in person, BTW.
While this pic sucks, these swooping snipers really kick butt and seem very orc-ish to me (longer mouths, obviously)
http://www.wizkidsgames.com/images/figures/Rotating/MKWW/MKWW_126.gif

Ummm... but then I painted him blue :) and viola! He's got the same face structure as the heroscape orcs, he's riding a dion type creature like the orcs, he's even got similar armor (once painted gold very similar) The only thing that disapointed me with him is that he's wearing pants and shoes. But I just gave him a 7 defence and am blaming it on him being a heavy armor type orc.

[truth]

Well... not 100% perfect...

Orc Archer Enhancement... The 2nd use of "additional" has an extra "l"

But he is good.

Thanks for the pre-print catch :). All fixed.

[truth]

Hmm, is there a reason he has disengage, besides the fact that all orcs other than Grimnak have it? He just doesn't seem very... disengagey... to me. I think he'd be more interesting with a different kind of special, official or custom, in that spot instead. He just seems so generic. @_@

My goal with this one was to emulate an offical orc as closely as I could. I added an orginal power, but I didn't want to get too fancy, as this will be a prize at a tourney, and I didn't want blow any anti-custom winners minds. You know how fragile and closed they can be :).

[Rhydderch]

Good to see a new custom from you Truth! Sometimes it seems like all the hard admin work here must keep you and GB from producing new customs =(

Cool addition to the orc armada! Comparing to Tornak, though, I think he should be 110+ (unless one thinks Tornak overpriced :) ), even with the drawback on the attack, still more powerful, better defense, similar bonding compatibility/squad boost.

A good point. He does seem a bit stronger than Tornak. Then again I'm not sure Tornak is worth the points, especially when you compare him to Grimnak. Chomp > Disengage. 2 Extra Life > 1 Extra Defense. At least in my opinion.

EDIT: Forgot to mention what I like best about the custom is the new paint job. I especially like the skin of the "dinosaur" which has a very textured look to it.

[truth]

Cool addition to the orc armada! Comparing to Tornak, though, I think he should be 110+ (unless one thinks Tornak overpriced :) ), even with the drawback on the attack, still more powerful, better defense, similar bonding compatibility/squad boost.

One thinks tornak is a tad overpriced. :)

[toddrew]

Good to see a new custom from you Truth! Sometimes it seems like all the hard admin work here must keep you and GB from producing new customs =(

Cool addition to the orc armada! Comparing to Tornak, though, I think he should be 110+ (unless one thinks Tornak overpriced :) ), even with the drawback on the attack, still more powerful, better defense, similar bonding compatibility/squad boost.

A good point. He does seem a bit stronger than Tornak. Then again I'm not sure Tornak is worth the points, especially when you compare him to Grimnak. Chomp > Disengage. 2 Extra Life > 1 Extra Defense. At least in my opinion.

EDIT: Forgot to mention what I like best about the custom is the new paint job. I especially like the skin of the "dinosaur" which has a very textured look to it.

I forgot that Tornak doesn't have disengage! But, the rest of your post goes along with what I was thinking - this guy is closer to Grimnak (120) than Tornak (100), IMHO.

But then again, I don't get too worked up over 10 or 20 points - I'd put him in the barracks ;)

[truth]

Good to see a new custom from you Truth! Sometimes it seems like all the hard admin work here must keep you and GB from producing new customs =(

Cool addition to the orc armada! Comparing to Tornak, though, I think he should be 110+ (unless one thinks Tornak overpriced :) ), even with the drawback on the attack, still more powerful, better defense, similar bonding compatibility/squad boost.

A good point. He does seem a bit stronger than Tornak. Then again I'm not sure Tornak is worth the points, especially when you compare him to Grimnak. Chomp > Disengage. 2 Extra Life > 1 Extra Defense. At least in my opinion.

EDIT: Forgot to mention what I like best about the custom is the new paint job. I especially like the skin of the "dinosaur" which has a very textured look to it.

Thanks! :) I don't paint very often, and when I did paint minis for LOTR roleplaying back in the day it was always a black undercoat and drybrush. Which gave them all a very cool look and made them match each other quite well, but again here I was trying to emulate HS so I tried to match the paint style. In the photo the dino skin looks very close to the offical units dino skin. In rl it dried a little more blue than that. Kinda disappointing, but on the same hand the slightly bluer dino is appealing looking IMO.

Here is another shot of it where the actual dino color comes through a little better.

http://www.heroscapers.com/oldgallery/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Games_037.jpg

[truth]

Good to see a new custom from you Truth! Sometimes it seems like all the hard admin work here must keep you and GB from producing new customs =(

Cool addition to the orc armada! Comparing to Tornak, though, I think he should be 110+ (unless one thinks Tornak overpriced :) ), even with the drawback on the attack, still more powerful, better defense, similar bonding compatibility/squad boost.

A good point. He does seem a bit stronger than Tornak. Then again I'm not sure Tornak is worth the points, especially when you compare him to Grimnak. Chomp > Disengage. 2 Extra Life > 1 Extra Defense. At least in my opinion.

EDIT: Forgot to mention what I like best about the custom is the new paint job. I especially like the skin of the "dinosaur" which has a very textured look to it.

I forgot that Tornak doesn't have disengage! But, the rest of your post goes along with what I was thinking - this guy is closer to Grimnak (120) than Tornak (100), IMHO.

But then again, I don't get too worked up over 10 or 20 points - I'd put him in the barracks ;)

Tornak has disengage. And like I said Tornak is a bit on the weak side. I was comparing this guy more to 4 swog riders as he's an archer booster. His up side to 4 swog riders is more staying power, if your venturing way out with your orc archers, you don't have to spend an enternity sending up a reinforcement swog to take a dead ones place. His disadvantage is not being able to stack bonuses and hold multiple places on the map. Another advantage is greater defense, a disadvantage is less life and harder to preserve that life when pinned down.

Tornak hardly ever gets drafted around here, I believe he's just deemed not worth his points.

[truth]

Okay made a change. I forgot to change his size over. He's now a Large 7 and I went ahead and lowered his defense to a 6 in an effort to make everyone happy with him :).

[LilNewbie]

Belrak is very cool! One of the better mounted figures from that set. Nice job.

Newb.

[Annerios]

I knew Truth would break out the paints eventually. :D

Great job with fixing the beast's skin. The original brown looked too plain. This orc looks like a leader for those new armored orcs that are coming out.

He is a nice prize and and a straightforward conversion for everyone else who is now going to want him.

[toddrew]

I guess I should have forgot that I forgot :oops: I don't know how I read that into Rhydderch's post?
Still in agreement with everything else I posted. If Tornak is viewed as overpriced, this guy is about right.

[truth]

http://www.heroscapers.com/oldgallery/albums/userpics/10007/normal_axeorcs2.jpg

http://www.heroscapers.com/oldgallery/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Games_037.jpg

Someone mention he looked like GenCon orcs? :)

[justjohn]

Looks great, Truth. Unlike alot of the MK orcs, this one actually resembles the gruts, which is cool. The repaint looks good as well, and the card itself seems fairly balanced and a nice addition to the orc horde, not to mention a great prize. (Basically an echo of everyone else, but it does look good)

[Rhydderch]

Here is another shot of it where the actual dino color comes through a little better.

http://www.heroscapers.com/oldgallery/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Games_037.jpg

He does look a lot more blue there! Still looks just as good though. The armor has a nice sheen to it as well. BTW is he on a wooden base?

The base is plastic and from the molds that are/were floating around.

[Doc_Savage]

Some crazy good modder will end up putting a HS grut head on this guy and make him that 2% better into perfect......

Annerios?

[Annerios]

Some crazy good modder will end up putting a HS grut head on this guy and make him that 2% better into perfect......

Annerios?

:lol: I have a spare orc head laying around and an official orc sword or axe too. I'll have to remember that when I pick up this figure.

Although, I like the fact that this orc is wearing his helmet unlike those fully armored HS orcs in the photo who did not bother wearing theirs!

[LilNewbie]

LOL! The least vulnerable part of an orc would probably be his braincase. :D

Newb.

[Annerios]

LOL! The least vulnerable part of an orc would probably be his braincase. :D

Newb.

Yep. All brawn, no brains.

[Jandars_Hope]

Belrak looks cool truth!
I like the abilities you've given him aswell!
Congrats to who wins him!

[Paxton]

So whats the mageknight name to this figure?

[LilNewbie]

Nice to see you posting again, Paxton! It is from the Mage Knight Whirlwind set-Horned Hatchetkrugg (#s 109,110, 111 ).

Newb.

[truth]

Ok, Time to bring my customs back from the grave. I want to do a string of posts that attempt to perfect old customs that need new polish.

I'm starting with:

VALENTELA

Bio:
The more sentimental of the elvish twins, Valentela responded to the grievous situation she went through with Ralentar in a slightly different, though no less aggressive manner. Well knowing the vulnerability of an archer in close combat, she honed her abilities with the short sword, choosing to serve as bodyguard and distraction while her brother picked off enemies from afar. No less dangerous than her brother once within striking distance, she compensates for her lack of effectiveness at range by carrying a blade in each hand, so as to cut down the foe with doubled swiftness, as well as studying the art of parrying in such depth that she would not compromise her defense due to the lack of a shield. While her brother seemed consumed with eliminating the enemy, Valentela always retained a more balanced view of the world, and is quick to defend or evoke the bond between them as a way to keep her brother from devolving into an obsessive, sniping crusader. Despite her relatively greater sentimentality, she takes her duties no less seriously than her brother, and indeed, in some ways she is stronger. For as the saying goes, while the oak may crash in a strong storm, a reed will bend without breaking.

Card:
http://www.heroscapers.com/oldgallery/albums/userpics/10001/Valentela_copy.jpg

Figure:
Mage Knight Freeholder Sorceress (http://gamingetc.safeshopper.com/1322/12314.htm?591) $1.79

Input is appreciated. Is the cost right? Can anything done to make her more fun, thematic, original?

[Tiberius]

With her double attack and ease of getting an increase to movement (the tree thing is very situationally dependent and I cant see wanting to trade her attack with someone elses as she has that good of stats) I think the 140-150 range is right for her. Without a doubt she is powerful and has the potential to crush opponents with that double attack. I compared her point wise with syvarris and Tornac with thier stats and abilities.

[jcb231]

I've always liked this card....except for the "Woodland Stealth" tree power. I've always thought it caused too many disagreements....the same issue that crops up whenever folks talk about partial cover rules.

I've often wondered if it would be better to simply boost her attack by one or two dice when she is adjacent to a tree, or take a page from the Dzu-Tehs camoflage power somehow. I know that's not the same thing, but it might be more straightforward and less open to interpretation or awkward laser pointer fumbling.

[truth]

Hmmm, I find it to be right up the ally of official line of sight. Sure it's open to interpretation, but only becomes a problem if one of the players is a jerk off that wants to slant it his way.

[fuzzysadist]

Love BELRAK, very nice look to that army!
Fuzzy

[justjohn]

I like Valentela a good bit, Truth. She has strong, original abilities, but nothing overpowering. The figure looks good, and just about everyone enjoys elves, I think. I do think her cost could drop 20 or so points, probably no more than 20, maybe as little as 10 or 15. 2 of her specials are terrain based, which makes them situational, the grass one more so than the tree one, I think. The call for aid, if just relying on official elves, may not be worth giving up her 2x at least :skull::skull::skull::skull: attack.

Question on Call For Aid: can she attack once, then use the other normal attack for another elf to attack, or have another elf, or 2 different elves attack in place of herself? Or is it only 1 other figure per turn? I also think the wording on Call For Aid could be tightened up a tad. I think you were shooting for a short, easy read of an ability, but I think it could sound a little more official, if that's what you're aiming for. I tried to toy with it, but didn't come up with anything that wasn't a little more wordy, and I think with the card having 3 other specials, that may have been your original intention.

Good stuff, nevertheless.

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

http://www.heroscapers.com/oldgallery/albums/userpics/10001/Belrak.jpg
This guy is freakin' cool! Like an improved Nerak!
I love the possible detrimental aspect of using Reckless Thrust!
The repaint is awesome too.

[truth]

I like Valentela a good bit, Truth. She has strong, original abilities, but nothing overpowering. The figure looks good, and just about everyone enjoys elves, I think. I do think her cost could drop 20 or so points, probably no more than 20, maybe as little as 10 or 15. 2 of her specials are terrain based, which makes them situational, the grass one more so than the tree one, I think. The call for aid, if just relying on official elves, may not be worth giving up her 2x at least :skull::skull::skull::skull: attack.

Question on Call For Aid: can she attack once, then use the other normal attack for another elf to attack, or have another elf, or 2 different elves attack in place of herself? Or is it only 1 other figure per turn? I also think the wording on Call For Aid could be tightened up a tad. I think you were shooting for a short, easy read of an ability, but I think it could sound a little more official, if that's what you're aiming for. I tried to toy with it, but didn't come up with anything that wasn't a little more wordy, and I think with the card having 3 other specials, that may have been your original intention.

Good stuff, nevertheless.

Call for aid is good if you are just out of range and you call upon an archer friend to take care of bussiness. Double attack reads than when she attacks she may attack one additonal time. So she can't give away her first attack and then use her second... though I suppose it could be argued that she could use her first attack and give away her second. I suppose I should tighten it up so that it is clear whether she can or cannot do that.

[porterhouse]

Hey Truth, I've been trying out your Shade hero in a couple of games and I had a question about him. Now I know the card text indicates this, but I wanted to be sure. On a roll of 16 or higher can he assassinate literally anybody? I was playing a game yesterday and which I assassinated Q9 and Jotun.:eek: Now granted I don't normally roll this lucky, but I wanted to be sure there were no restrictions on the assassinate ability. Thanks again and great job on the customs.

[Utgars_General]

:ponder:Truth, I found some more figures you could use for Raptorian units. Check these guys out: Scavanger style (http://www.crocodilegames.com/secure/item_details.asp?CatID=24&SubID=35&Page=14&pageHeading=Items%20-%20Miniatures%20-%20Aegyptus), Heavy-duty ultra warriors, (http://www.crocodilegames.com/secure/list_items.asp?CatID=24&SubID=26&pageHeading=Items%20-%20Miniatures%20-%20Aegyptus) and standard fighters. (http://www.crocodilegames.com/secure/list_items.asp?CatID=24&SubID=29&pageHeading=Items%20-%20Miniatures%20-%20Aegyptus) They are all metal minis like the other Raptorians, but they add a lot to the "sub-species" and "varied army" feel to the guys. I hope I am allowed to post in the all powerful Truth's customs thread and give suggestions. :pray::roll:

[nyys]

Considering he last posted in this thread in 2006 and the fact that he does work for WotC now, I don't think much is going to happen here anymore.

[Sherman Davies]

Of course, the fact that Truth now works for WotC means that people can now scour this thread for hints as to what might be in upcoming waves. ;)

[SuperflyTNT]

I was looking at that awesome set of figs on the first post when I came to Falcor. Isn't Falcor a luck dragon? :razz:

[truth]

Of course, the fact that Truth now works for WotC means that people can now scour this thread for hints as to what might be in upcoming waves. ;)


I've dipped into old customs of mine here and there when working on official units. Brave Arrow's tracking theme and power found its origins here:

http://screamingtruth.com/photos/albums/userpics/10001/normal_garthug_the_brave.jpg

But I wouldn't count of finding too many hints around here.

[Nadom]

I've dipped into old customs of mine here and there when working on official units. Brave Arrow's tracking theme and power found its origins here:

http://screamingtruth.com/photos/albums/userpics/10001/normal_garthug_the_brave.jpg

But I wouldn't count of finding too many hints around here.
Not to mention a little Otonashi's "Attack the Wild" in there, as well.