Theracus - how much?

[skullsgood]

Used Theracus in a game for the first time this weekend, paid my points without really taking in what he could do (other than being employed as a steed for Dan), and then took a closer look.

This prompted me to read out his full stats to my fellow players, culminating in his low cost of 40 points. Some surprise was expressed at what they felt was a ridiculously low price.

Do other 'Scapers agree - is Theracus a bargain as we believe?

Appreciate your thoughts on the matter.

[K/H_Addict]

i have read his stats once in my life, and that has been off of heroscape.com. i looked at it, saw he was only 40 points and was like "WHAT THE HELL!? 40 POINTS FOR A FLYING CREATURE THAT CAN CARRY?"


my explanation for this: Hasbro has seen the complaints some people have for Taelord, and are making it up by underpricing Theracus.......

[Taeblewalker]

The only drawback to the Carry ability is that you are effectively unable to do anything but maneuver with the order marker, unless you can attack with Theracus himself. You have to move him then wait until at least your next order marker to do anything.

On the other hand, how many turns of Heroscape have we taken just to move those stinkin' Tarns into range?

[toddrew]

Used Theracus in a game for the first time this weekend, paid my points without really taking in what he could do (other than being employed as a steed for Dan), and then took a closer look.

This prompted me to read out his full stats to my fellow players, culminating in his low cost of 40 points. Some surprise was expressed at what they felt was a ridiculously low price.

Do other 'Scapers agree - is Theracus a bargain as we believe?

Appreciate your thoughts on the matter.

Hello Skullsgood, I saw your other thread about the location of a points calculator, and I remember there being one, but can't recall where - Logrey's page has some great heroscape applications, that may be what I'm thinking of.

To the topic at hand - depending on the board and the objective at hand, Theracus can be greatly undercosted, but I think he's about right. He's only able to carry small or medium figures and with low life and low defense isn't able to do much other than that transport. The order markers necessary to carry out what one is trying to accomplish can be offset by what one could accomplish with other figures.

I didn't say what I was trying to very eloquently. Hopefully it at least encourages discussion :)

EDIT: saw the 2 posts that went up while composing this one - but Taeblewalker is talking about the same thing.

The ability that Brunak has allows him to carry Raelin and be a squad killing machine - I'll have to try it out with Theracus and Taelord, but I'd imagine that it isn't worth the 220 points for that long range bomber (boost Theracus with Mittens as well?), maybe it would work with disengage - does Theracus have Taelord's mysterio disengage, too :D

EDIT of the EDIT: Finn would obviously be a cheaper solution to the bomber situation (I had the flying and ranged attack jumbled in my head :) )

[shakey_snake]

That's 40 points of your army that can't fight worth a crap.

I'd say he's useful on some maps.

though, Saylind is marginalized now.

[K/H_Addict]

well, unless i misread it, you can move theracus (or brunak), and carry a small or medium fiure with him, and the attack with theracus (or brunak), but the othe figure stays where you drop him off at, which is a drwaback, IMO.


a strategy for Brunak: Carry Sgt. Drake onto a rock island that is surrounded by molten lava. This will create stalemate between you and all other players, unless someone has morsbane, to negate the thorian speed.

[netherspirit]

Don't forget that he's a scout, so with Mittens he gets 9 move!

Like Taeblewalker said he is just a support and placement unit, you will not be using him in any scuffles because he will likely not survive long if he gets engaged. 3 attack isn't bad, but the 3 defense and 3 life is low.

[Jason]

"a strategy for Brunak: Carry Sgt. Drake onto a rock island that is surrounded by molten lava. This will create stalemate between you and all other players, unless someone has morsbane, to negate the thorian speed."

That's not true at all. Anyone with a ranged Special attack or Special ability could kill him

[K/H_Addict]

with me, that 3 defense, 3 attack and 3 life for 40 points PLUS flight for theracus is sounding much better than the 3 attack, 3 life 7 defense for 110 (100?) points for brunak. Sure, the 7 defense comes off more appealing, but my defense rolls suck. Wen rolling 7, i'll roll 3. When rolling 3, i'll roll 3. wtf? i cant seem to roll more that 3 or 4 at a time, except on rare occasions i devour the opponent with very lucky rolls (dumutef guard on road attacking my finn who has HA: Dumutef guard rolls all 5 skulls. I'm like CRAP! good bye finn. and drop my 5 defense dice in the tower, reach for finn before my dice hit, only to realize that i too defended with 5/5 dice.)

[toddrew]

a strategy for Brunak: Carry Sgt. Drake onto a rock island that is surrounded by molten lava. This will create stalemate between you and all other players, unless someone has morsbane, to negate the thorian speed.

Or the obsidian guards. Or your opponent becomes homicidal upon witnessing such tactics and has a conniption :D
EDIT: and the more obvious reply that Jason gave :)

[Rÿchean]

with me, that 3 defense, 3 attack and 3 life for 40 points PLUS flight for theracus is sounding much better than the 3 attack, 3 life 7 defense for 110 (100?) points for brunak. Sure, the 7 defense comes off more appealing, but my defense rolls suck. Wen rolling 7, i'll roll 3. When rolling 3, i'll roll 3. wtf? i cant seem to roll more that 3 or 4 at a time, except on rare occasions i devour the opponent with very lucky rolls (dumutef guard on road attacking my finn who has HA: Dumutef guard rolls all 5 skulls. I'm like CRAP! good bye finn. and drop my 5 defense dice in the tower, reach for finn before my dice hit, only to realize that i too defended with 5/5 dice.)

Brunak is a bad boy; Theracus is not. A common strat for Brunak is to carry Thorgy or Finn or some other enhancement character to help Brunak out. Theracus isnt going to scare anyone so the carry a good support unit stuff is not useful, like it can be with brunak.

Theracus becomes all about getting a figure to high ground in the early game; which can be benficial, but he is very much a one trick pony :-D
It works well at the start, but unless you are going to truck the same figure all over (dead eye, sayvarris) you are going to waist markers going back to get other figures (krav maga)

After his first carry, it seems like his best use is to then clog things up until he is dead.

Also, the carried figure can be friendly but he can not be engaged; words on the card that are often overlooked.

Saylind can still summon any sized figure, engaged or not, to safety; but only a figure you control.

[jcb231]

He is one of the best bargains in the game, up there with Raelin.

[ultradoug]

use him to carry saylind.
thats some messed up stuff.
you cant shoot drake with ranged.

[TheRealQ]

There is too much to respond to so let me start with a clean slate.

Theracus is priced just right. If he is used to deliver a ranged unit to the front then he has no more use than as a shield, it just takes too long for him to fly back. (unless you have Saylind and a lucky d20) As a shield he only survives a couple hits, but those couple hits may make all the difference.

Theracus can also help carry units with a move of 4 to the front if you keep him in reserve, again this is a suicide mission but may be the advantage you need to turn the tide.

His third use is as an attacker. 3A won't get you far but pump it up with Finn and it will take out most ranged squad members. With a 7 flying (possibly 9) mover he can stay behind cover until ranged units are close enough to pounce. Unless your opponent has the forethought to spead out his figures Finn will be close enough to attack the next one if theracus is killed. Thus you have killed at least one with Theracus and have positioned Finn to take care of the rest.

None of these uses are really worth more than 40 points yet it does make him worth every one of those 40 points. He is priced just right.

Comparing him to Brunak is not an easy task either. They have the same life and carry but that is it. The defense is significantly higher on Brunak allowing him to shrug off blows that would maim Theracus. His attack is one point higher allowing him to do more damage. If the map is built to his liking he can stand by or in lava preventing him from being hit on all sides. Then the biggest different is his special attack which allows him to chop through squads. There is just no comparison.

Theracus is worth 40 points and Brunak is worth 110 plain and simple.

[allskulls]

I have witnessed Theracus defeat Nilfy pretty much by himself if I remember correctly.

[toddrew]

I have witnessed Theracus defeat Nilfy pretty much by himself if I remember correctly.

Expound, please - I'd like to hear this one. And that's not sarcasm :)

[K/H_Addict]

now, dont get me wrong people, i never once said thet they werent worth what they cost, i just said that Theracus seems a bit underpriced to me. As i said, i do not have heroes of whatever or the new Tundra, and probably will not until they hit shelves. Heres my comparison of the two:

LONG POST ALERT

Theracus:
3 Life
7 move
1 range
3 attack
3 defense

Large 5
Carry
Flying

Brunak:
3 Life
6 move
1 range
4 attack
7 defense
110 points

Huge 8
Lava resistant
Carry
Bloodhungry special


Okay. Thats the stats. lets review them in comparison.:

3 life. Well, 3 live is below average for a hero. At this point, they two are both the same.

Theracus has 7 move, which is above average for heroes. Brunak has 6, which is still a little above average, but there is only 1 other hero who i can think of that has 7+ move, and that Swoggy with 8. (nerak maybe? idk i havent got one), so 6 seems average to me.

Range of 1. They both have it. They both are melee. At this point, i say Theracus is better, because he can get there faster, with that extra move.

Attack. Theracus has 3, brunak has 4. i consider them both in the area of average. 4 seems better, and i'm sure e would all take 4 over 3. Except in golf, but we're not playing golf. Brunak wins this one, but I still prefer Theracus, for the extra move.

DEfense. Theracus has 3, while brunak has 7. Now, that 3 is perfectly average. I wouldnt mind picking Theracus for his 3 defense. I'd prefer Brunak with his 7, but only if i had never played the game before. Having played HS for over a year, i know that my defense rolls, and even with the 7 defense dice, i am more likely to only roll 3 or 4 of them, 90% of the time, as i mentioned in an earlier post. Brunak wins, again.

Points, i can agree seem balanced at this point. Theracus is weaker in the attack and defense department, but he has speed over brunak. Lets touch on the abilities etc.

They are both large+, so neither can be chomped by grimnak, so, unless hasbro makes a new ability, or someone gets crazy with the custom, they are both even in this department. Brunak can attack units higher up than theracus, but Brunak has arms, and theraqcus doesn't. DUH!

They both have the exact same carry ability. neither have new abilities worded into them, like Taelord flying. They both work on an unengaged friendly small or medium figure. Now they seem even again.

Brunak is lava resistant. Theracus can fly, which, seeing the wayi build fields, is just as good, if not better than resistance to lava. FLying also doubles as a was to avoid the hinderances of Snow, which brunak can not avoid. Now, i feel that Theracus is better by far than brunak, even though brunak is stronger.

Brunak has an ability to elimintae entire squads at a time, but how often will you get a chance to kill a full squad at a time. Not very often for me. This ability is just a point increase for me.

In my eyes, theracus will get pick a whole lot more that brunak, once he enters our playgroup. at 40 points with the ability to fly AND carry, i just cant turn him down.

[toddrew]

Okay. Thats the stats. lets review them in comparison.:

3 life. Well, 3 live is below average for a hero. At this point, they two are both the same.



Nitpicking a little here, but one shouldn't completely divorce defense and life, as they are intertwined. 3 life with 7 defense is much better than 3 life with 3 defense (though these comments may be colored by my recently having a hard time taking down a sitting duck Brunak with a 4 attack :) )

EDIT: a little clarification here, as rereading my post, it reads as stating the obvious (of course a 3 L 7 D is a better stat line than 3 L 3 D :D ), rather than highlighting the point that, cost/point wise, adding a life to a figure with high defense should be of more value than adding a life to figure with low defense.

[gibberish_47]

What I find funny is Theracus's base states are equal to Koshumat's, except Theracus has a higher move. In my opinion, Theracus's abilities blow Kosh's out of the water -- and he cost about half as much.

[P_J_Keller]

We really can't forget that Brunak has a special attack of 4. This is a huge difference when fighting samurai, gorillanators, or some other figures I am probably forgetting at this time.

I have seen Brunak take out entire squads at one time. His two spaced base and height aids his ability to engage multiple figures.

My opinion, Theracus is support and priced right at 40 pts. Brunak is an offensive force and priced pretty accurately at 110.

[K/H_Addict]

Okay. Thats the stats. lets review them in comparison.:

3 life. Well, 3 live is below average for a hero. At this point, they two are both the same.



Nitpicking a little here, but one shouldn't completely divorce defense and life, as they are intertwined. 3 life with 7 defense is much better than 3 life with 3 defense (though these comments may be colored by my recently having a hard time taking down a sitting duck Brunak with a 4 attack :) )



i wasnt "divorcing them." i was covering each stat one at a time. Since both have 3 life, at that point, they are both the same. I know that defense does help life, and the more the better, but it seems to me that you guys are continuously missing the point where this analysis is from my experience. in my experience, 7 defense is wors than 3, becuase i cant seem to roll more than 3 or 4 skulls OR shields at a time (with few exceptions...)

In my experience, Theracus, point-for-point is much better than Brunak.

[holycrusader7]

hey thats a cool strategy,K/H addict-but can Brunak carry across lava? yeah theracaus does look a bit under priced-wont know for sure though un til i actually use him

[holycrusader7]

so i guess the opinion is that brunak is a tad overrated and theracaus might be an unsung hero

[K/H_Addict]

yes, brunak can carry across lava, but since theracus can fly, so can he. I'll take flying over lava-resistance any day. Theracus can also carry through (or rather over) snow, with no hinderences. I feel now that theracus in underpriced, but wont know for sure until they reach my local walmarts and/or targets and/or TRU

[Runehardt]

I started a game on a short map the other day. The map had an exposed +4 range glyph on high ground surrounded by lava field tiles, 6 spaces away from my start zone. I thought this was a perfect time to use Theracus and Sevarris. My first move was to fly Sevarris to the +4 range glyph on high ground and then moved Theracus off the lava fields before the end of the round. Now Sevarris was sitting on high ground with a range of 13. With this short map there was no place to hide. I thought I had the game on the first move... Unfortunately Sevarris' rolls were not good and my opponent flew two Minnions up and whittled away at Sevarris. Eventually I lost the game.


I still feel that move should have dominated the field. If we tried it again it probably would have ended completely differently.
It still comes down to the luck of the roll.

[Rÿchean]

I started a game on a short map the other day. The map had an exposed +4 range glyph on high ground surrounded by lava field tiles, 6 spaces away from my start zone. I thought this was a perfect time to use Theracus and Sevarris. My first move was to fly Sevarris to the +4 range glyph on high ground and then moved Theracus off the lava fields before the end of the round. Now Sevarris was sitting on high ground with a range of 13. With this short map there was no place to hide. I thought I had the game on the first move... Unfortunately Sevarris' rolls were not good and my opponent flew two Minnions up and whittled away at Sevarris. Eventually I lost the game.


I still feel that move should have dominated the field. If we tried it again it probably would have ended completely differently.
It still comes down to the luck of the roll.

yep, that is his one good trick...and it is rightly priced at 40 points.

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

His third use is as an attacker. 3A won't get you far but pump it up with Finn and it will take out most ranged squad members. With a 7 flying (possibly 9) mover he can stay behind cover until ranged units are close enough to pounce.



Yes, yes , yes I agree. You can't forget his attacking ability. I used Theracus to get Morsbane up into the front line on one game. Morsbane was able to negate Q9 and was soon headed for Charos. I lost the initiative and Morsbane died under heavy fire.

Anyway, Theracus had done his part as a carrier. I suppose He could've gone back to get the Venoc Warlord, but his movement is killer in itself and I had other pressing matters - Raelin.

She was standing on snow within range of her own Q9, Zettians and Charos boosting their defense even more! She had about 2 life left.

Now, my attempt was to fly Theracus in and engage her - I didn't want her to leave as she would soon be in range of my Aubriens headed her way with her name written on all their arrows.
No one else could reach and engage her - especially while trying to traverse and climb the glacier region - except Theracus with his flying and 9 movement.

Theracus could also attack.

Well, it came down to initiative AND - I lost. :? My opponent had his 1st turn with the merciful kyrie and just flew her away.

So to make a long story short, when Theracus has done his duty as a courier, hell yeah, send him in with a possible 9 spaces of movement and become a decent melee unit for 40 points!





I thought my plan was sound. (Darned initiative...) :x

[allskulls]

I have witnessed Theracus defeat Nilfy pretty much by himself if I remember correctly.

Expound, please - I'd like to hear this one. And that's not sarcasm :)
Well it was a 8 player game 4 on 4 and my teammate had Theracus who carried Syvaris to be killed shortly. I remember Nilfiem (spelling?) taking a disengaging wound from Theracus and being chased down. Detrimentalman can expound much more since it was his white dragon that bit the dust.

I haven't used Theracus myself but 40pts is a real bargain IMO. If it was broken down to life, he's about 13pts per life wereas Brunak is 36pts per life. Don't know if it means anything though. :shrug:

[Oogie_Da_Bruce]

Not gonna go into over/under priced, but I will say that Theracus is a useful tool during gameplay.

I say tool, because his attack/range/defense stats themselves are nothing special. It is his flying and move 7 that make him special... and carry.

One use of carry I have not seen mentioned is the Cyber Drop.

I have used this sucessfully in the past.

- Wait till the opportune time (endgame - critical bridge battle - stop advancing enemies).
- Fly Theracus into the fray (like a Huey Chopper) and drop of Major X17.
- Package Delivered (primary objective completed - attack is optional)

- Targets of oportunity (like HEH mentioned) move on to weaker targets in the enemy rearzone (range, weak heroes). Major should hold his own for a while.

OR

- Await further orders (bring in range support for X17/Theracus).
- Once situation controlled. Redeploy to new area or RTB (Return to Base)

------------------

Thacurus is a Chopper Plain and simple. Flies figues to remote locations and/or can perform long strike manuvers into enemy territory.

I like Thacurus for 40 points (as always, under the right circumstances).

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

One use of carry I have not seen mentioned is the Cyber Drop.

I have used this sucessfully in the past.

- Wait till the opportune time (endgame - critical bridge battle - stop advancing enemies).
- Fly Theracus into the fray (like a Huey Chopper) and drop of Major X17.
- Package Delivered (primary objective completed - attack is optional)


'attack is optional' ! Hella funny.

Yeah, that is a creative use of Theracus and Major x-17/Gladiatrons!
I have to remember that! :thumbsup:

[LilNewbie]

Theracus=cool unit. 3Att/3Def is not bad. Marcus only has 3Att/3Def. :D

Newb.

[K/H_Addict]

but marcus has twice the life as theracus.

[LilNewbie]

And costs 60 points more too. Just stating that 3/3 is not that uncommon.

Newb.

[K/H_Addict]

okay. you win, newb. punk :lol:



i still say that theracus is undercosted.

[Detrimentalman]

The battle of Niff and Theracus, well see actually there was a sylvarus in there too. I have to say in all fairness my friend Sam was playing Theracus and for some mystical reason when he rolls for this horse he gets insane luck. Constantly 2-3 shields and 2-3 skulls.

Anyhow Niff flew up after theracus and Sylv landed up on a bridge. Niff blew on them and heres where it gets fuzzy. I'm pretty sure Sylv got off two shots on Niff before he was taken out the next turn. Anyhow Niff couldn't fit on the stupid bridge! So he ended up moving up next to Theracus who had height advantage and taking a normal swing, because by all rights that should have been an easy hit, but I didn't do any damage. Theracus attacks back and I roll crap and take more (3 or 4 I think) wounds. I leave engagement with Niff hoping to put theracus on even ground so Saylind can summon Niff back next turn to be healed by kelda.

Well again stupid rolling I get the hit, but i'm still good right. I think I had 2 lives left with 3av4d. Of course though Sam rolls like all three skulls the next turn and Niff dies.

Have to remember theracus has 3 attack and normally starts with height because of his move and flying. Against 4 defense that isn't to shabby. Granted Niff has 8 life, but it doesn't last forever if you roll poorly. Really it was the whole bridge thing and awful rolls that lead to his defeat.


btw theracus lasted a while after killing Niff as well.

[shakey_snake]

Granted Niff has 8 life, but it doesn't last forever if you roll poorly.Yeah, really poorly, theracus only has an 11.300% chance according to the matchup calculator.

[Jason]

Nilfheim has 6 life not 8 (Braxas has 8)

[Double Oak]

Velennes' Theracus once deposited Sgt. Drake upon my Krav Agents when I stupidly didn't have order markers on em. By the time I could get order markers on em, one died and the two still living were engaged and died quickly thereafter.

I hate that dadgum nag.

[Su-Bak-Na]

I think Theracus is a nice edition to the game, I also think he is pointed correctly.

[philowar]

The only drawback to the Carry ability is that you are effectively unable to do anything but maneuver with the order marker, unless you can attack with Theracus himself.

Like Brunak, Theracus is great for plunking down a meatshield right where you need him (Ne-Gok-Sa) or my favorite stand-there-and-do-nothing-but-still-give-you-a-headache, the samurai.

[philowar]

That's 40 points of your army that can't fight worth a crap.

I'd say he's useful on some maps.

though, Saylind is marginalized now.

Unless you're using her (Saylind) to throw Krug or Jotun in your opponent's face, which I've done more than once.

[philowar]

The defense is significantly higher on Brunak allowing him to shrug off blows that would maim Theracus.

Unless you're me, which would mean that 50% of the rolls you make for Brunak come up blanks. :(

[Avenger]

One time I was going to draft theracus for a castle seige, but my opponent counter drafted him first. I thought to myself, "What in the world is he going to do with Theracus in the castle?" Well, I got my answer. As my Sgt. Alexander Drake advanced towards the castle walls, ready to cause havok, Theracus grabbed Crixus and flew down to intercept Drake. It was then that I learned that Theracus is a veryeffective castle defender. Anyone else ever seen this?

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

I had Theracus fly in to intercept Q9 while the Major was advancing on a squad of Aubriens. Theracus carried a lone Aubrien and placed him on a Ladder rung to gain height on the soulborg killing machine.
But it was Theracus's all skulls! attack on Q9 that took him out (Q9 had 1 wound from Syvarris earlier in the game).

I enjoy having Theracus in the game for situations like that - to get in fast with a friendly figure and engage the opposition. 7 movement with flying is great and to bring a small or medium friend along. The winged Scout can go down pretty easily with 3 life/3 defense. So 40 points is balanced and 40 points is a very nice price for a Hero figure.

Now, 40 points for FOUR Deathereavers? that's another discussion.
:roll:

[theats]

i say itheracus is pretty sweet. we now just need an animal figure that litterally can carry a figure on its back. like a war elephant.

[Chimpy]

I think Theracus' big advantage is the fact that he is underestimated. Once you bring him into the center of the board, it is his cargo that gets shot at not him. Then the opponent foolishly leaves a KMA or a Nakita by itself and SWOOP! You just killed one of their more valuable units. (He is also excellent at tying people up so you can get your more valuable units in place.) I would say he is 10 pts short of his real value.