Are d20 based abilites too difficult to roll?

[SilverBlade]

I'm thinking in general here. Everyone loves bashing Ne Gok Sa and Dund doesn't have a friend in the world. But most d20 powers have somewhere around a 1/4 chance of success. Powerful abilities to be sure, but as a whole, are they really worth it? I guess what I'm asking is do you want more d20 abilites such as we have had, or do you think they should be toned down and made easier in the future to get more play?

[Aldin]

Polls make me tired, but it's a good question :)

I think D20s are most valuable not for what they can do, but for how your opponent has to account for what they can do. In Elstree's "fun with runa" post he demonstrates this. Even though Runa's power did nothing, it forced bunjee to focus a great deal of effort in killing her. As Elstree acknowledges, had he taken advantage of that confusion it was potentially game changing.

If my opponent has Sudema I have to make a choice - focus on her and take whatever damage their other units can dish out or put her on the back burner, priority-wise and potentially suffer the devestating consequences.

~Aldin

[monkeyfish]

Polls make me tired, but it's a good question :)

I think D20s are most valuable not for what they can do, but for how your opponent has to account for what they can do. In Elstree's "fun with runa" post he demonstrates this. Even though Runa's power did nothing, it forced bunjee to focus a great deal of effort in killing her. As Elstree acknowledges, had he taken advantage of that confusion it was potentially game changing.

If my opponent has Sudema I have to make a choice - focus on her and take whatever damage their other units can dish out or put her on the back burner, priority-wise and potentially suffer the devestating consequences.

~Aldin
I agree.

[Eclipse]

Well put, Aldin

[Country_Dragon]

I went with doesn't matter they're just extra. I agree with the consensus. Most of the time the ability doesnt work, but its the intimidation factor that plays a big part with the added bonus of actually working once in a while IMHO. Seeing as how my D20 skills or luck are less than spectacular it's almost always intimidation factor for me.

[Elstree]

If my opponent has Sudema I have to make a choice - focus on her and take whatever damage their other units can dish out or put her on the back burner, priority-wise and potentially suffer the devestating consequences.

~Aldin

I agree, Aldin. You echo my thoughts on what I'll call "long-shot death-ray" special abilities (such as Dund's Crippling Gaze, Sudema's Stare of Stone, Deadeye Dan's Sharpshooter, Runa's Helm of Mitonsoul, or Ne-Gok-Sa's Mindshackle): they mainly function as high-threat distractions. Unlikely to work, but potentially game changing when they do. That forces your opponent to respond.

[Chimpy]

This is a tricky one.

I understand the value of the "Runa effect", and I think that it could do good in a lot of cases, but it does not work with my group too well.

With the exception of Braxas, figures who depend on the D20 are almost always ignored. They are saved as the last target. So this bonus really does not help me one bit.

As for the abilities themselves....

I would say that they are not worth it. I would never draft Ke Mo Shi. She has nothing going for her but her abilities. And her stats suck. Unlike Ne Gok Sa, who can survive without mindshackle, Ki Mo Shi dies fast. The enemy does not even have to concentrate on her to kill her. She is little more than a few abilities that will work 2 times out of every 20.

Ki Mo Shi highlights another big problem with D20 units. They cost a lot. Sure, Runa may distract an entire team with her ability. But, is it worth the cost? That is a pretty expensive sacrificial lamb. If you are playing with 400 points then most of these units are 1/4th of your army. :shock:

I really do not find much value in these units.

Sure, I will play them every once in a while. Yet I cannot imagine anyone in their sane mind using these guys in a completive scene.

[AbducteeLeader]

Polls make me tired, but it's a good question :)

I think D20s are most valuable not for what they can do, but for how your opponent has to account for what they can do. In Elstree's "fun with runa" post he demonstrates this. Even though Runa's power did nothing, it forced bunjee to focus a great deal of effort in killing her. As Elstree acknowledges, had he taken advantage of that confusion it was potentially game changing.

If my opponent has Sudema I have to make a choice - focus on her and take whatever damage their other units can dish out or put her on the back burner, priority-wise and potentially suffer the devestating consequences.

~Aldin

Thats a good point, but when it comes to decisions like that, I typically let my opponents order marker placement make my decision for me. :P

[Wilkerson74]

I enjoy the d20 abilities. Yeah the chances of actually hitting most of em are slim, but sometimes the pay off is priceless.

Not to mention the tension that can build up right before the dice reveals whatever number is rolled.

Picture the look on your oponnents face when you use Runa's helm aura to destroy a healthy Nilfheim, or when Ke Mo Shi mindshackles Syvarris and is turned against his original army.

I've actually had those happen (got lucky), but the moments they created where great fun.

[johnnybleu]

Yes, d20 abilities ARE generally difficult to roll- but that's how it should be in my mind. The success of these special powers/attacks usually has a drastic impact on the outcome of the game, so they shouldn't go off every turn. The last thing we need is a Braxas melting everyone on the board.

Now, as to whether or not they are worth it is a different matter. It depends on the player, I suppose. While there is no denying the potential of these figures, I'm not a gambling man and will rarely base my strategies on units with a high luck factor. But as Aldin mentioned, the mere presence of these units usually inspires fear into your foe, so one could argue that they are worth their cost in that sense.

Ultimately, as Wilkerson74 pointed out, they are fun. They add a lot of random dynamics to the game. I never count on the d20 to be kind to me, but when it does, it makes for memorable moments.

[Snotwalker 8000]

I guess it depends on which D20 special you're referring to. I view NGS mindshackle as more of an intimidation/threat presence than an actual "tactic/strategy" to shoot for. But we've found Frenzy, for example, to be VERY reliable in our games. Elves and Vipers LOVE the D20.

But the wise way to play any D20 unit is to play as if the roll WILL fail... then, if it fails, you're prepared and positioned correctly. But if it works, GRAVY!

[Aldin]

But the wise way to play any D20 unit is to play as if the roll WILL fail... then, if it fails, you're prepared and positioned correctly. But if it works, GRAVY!

Perfectly stated.

~Aldin

[johnny139]

No way! I'm a Heroscape gambler; my Ne-Gok-Sa, Morsbane, Deadeye, and Sudema armies are always fun to play. Sure, you could lose it all, but you could also get lucky and decimate! The dice gods have blessed me, however, and I often roll well.

[SilverBlade]

Elves and Vipers LOVE the D20.

Well for your information Mr Snotypants it was precisely the elves and vipers that prompted the question. Because YES, I DID HAVE A BAD DAY FRENZYING! Oh I don't just mean a run of ill fortune here. No I mean a total friggin d20 meltdaown. And I didn't even have IMax's infamous Dice Tower of Doom.
http://heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=5289&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
I think I rolled for frenzy somewhere around a dozen times between 3 VV and 1 WoA. Guess how many times I actually got it! :evil: Totally derailed my whole strategy. Swarm in with Vipers and take out a few key heros and demoralize my opponent as she watches her beloved Carr bite the dust.

OK, maybe not getting frenzy didn't lose the game for me, but it helped! Krug not getting a single attack in before he was sniped into Utgar heaven may have helped a little more.