I won ! (...but I'm so disappointed...) [Archive]

Aranas

May 26th, 2006, 03:10 PM

I won ! :) (...but I'm so disappointed... :( )

Hello all!

Ever happened to you? You won a game but would have prefered it to end differently?

I do not play as often as I would like to so I cherish the occasions I have. I was playing the other day with my 8 years old boy. After one hour of game setup (45 minutes to build a map, another 15 for drafting) we started the game.

He had: 2xOrcs, Krug, Grimnak, Tornak
I had: Airborn Elite and... well the rest is unimportant for my story.

Here it goes:
I roll for the AE and make the Drop. :D So, I boldly place all my AE near his starting zone 8)
We place our order markers.
We roll initiative and (you saw it coming) I get it :)

My first marker is of course on the AE. I throw the hand grenades in his crowded starting zone :twisted:

Result : 5 Orcs down, Tornak chopped to pieces, 3 wounds on Krug and one on Grimnak!

Collateral damage: my son leaving the room sobbing :cry:

Hummmmph! :(

Anything similar happened to you?

AmishBurrito

May 26th, 2006, 03:14 PM

yeah, yesterday me and some friends were playing 3v3. We each had about 3 units, and the first thing one of the opponents did was step on the massive curse glyph. They then proceeded to each roll badly once and lose a guy, (they claim their best guys). My team lost no one.
So then the rest of the game was them losing and complaining about it : /

TheRealQ

May 26th, 2006, 03:21 PM

I feel your pain. My 9 year old has the greatest swing in luck. Sometimes he rolls great every time he picks up the dice and other times he only rolls blanks. I am sure to explain strategy with him constantly even to the point of telling him the best way to defeat me. Win or lose he learns something and looks forward to the next game.

Specific to your situation I would have warned my son about placing any of his figures adjacent to each other in the starting zone when I draft the AE. Its too late to take back your grenade but you can sit down with him now and use this as an example (one that he has experienced personally) and explain future counter-strategy.

C28525

May 26th, 2006, 03:21 PM

hahahaha Arenas, great story!

I once went through my Kid's entire army with a heavily damaged Krug. I think the total body count was around 7 of his figures and it won me the match. His mother was not very happy with me for doing it. I had to pull the lame line that "I was teaching him a lesson". Which consequently had me sleeping ont he couch......

I say good for you, if someone is going to beat him like that it should be you. :twisted:

Aranas

May 26th, 2006, 03:29 PM

C28525I had to pull the lame line that "I was teaching him a lesson". Which consequently had me sleeping ont he couch......

Hehehe! :lol: You made me laugh a lot also!

TheRealQ...I would have warned my son about placing any of his figures adjacent to each other in the starting zone when I draft the AE.

The starting zone was too small to place his figures otherwise... My fault!

reapersaurus

May 26th, 2006, 04:36 PM

Aranas

May 26th, 2006, 04:48 PM

I think any of you trying to get a youngster excite about the game, and actually playing to WIN? Are not realizing that most kids like to win.
So you should do your best to lose to a kid, if you want them to like the game.

But maybe that's just a common sense thing, that there's some deeper-level-motivator approach reason why an adult wouldn't do that.......... ?

Good point Reapersaurus but I do let my son win often. Since he doen't allow me to draft a smaller army than his, I force myself to draft less balanced army and try to do my best out of it. Sometimes I will draft an all melee army and get butchered by him! :wink:

In the situation mentionned above, only one army card did it all... :?

Hex_Enduction_Hour

May 26th, 2006, 04:59 PM

I think any of you trying to get a youngster excite about the game, and actually playing to WIN? Are not realizing that most kids like to win.
So you should do your best to lose to a kid, if you want them to like the game. :D

But maybe that's just a common sense thing, that there's some deeper-level-motivator approach reason why an adult wouldn't do that.......... ?

I've always thrown the HS games against my son. I'm proud to spend the time bonding with him but oh, Heroscape is my favorite game so it's a heartache to spend so much time throwing a game.

By the way, my son is now 6 and we don't use order markers (he loses interest real quick during markers set-up phase).

My unspoken rule: If it's a game the child can comprehend at their level (Candyland or something) you should play no holds-barred, but if the game is above their level, it's nice to pull the punches.

If anything, my son has strong math skills because of Heroscape. I don't think he's that aware of strategies yet.

Codeman

May 26th, 2006, 05:01 PM

Yes, but the tables were turned. My eleven-year-old daughter was able to deploy her AE on her second try and then won initiative …. And proceeded to roll double skulls for 3 of her four grenade attacks. I lost 2 swog and 3 or 4 gruts with the first. Second grenade took out another swog and 2 or 3 more grunts. I think her next AE blanked but that was followed up by another double skull which took out another swog and 3 or 4 more grunts. I have the attack all documented with photos … maybe I will get around to posting it on this thread sometime…. But it was painful , and it’s not the first time she has caused havoc with the AE. She has success about 50% of the time with them so she typically includes them in her arsenal.

Jandars_Hope

May 26th, 2006, 05:08 PM

Teamski

May 26th, 2006, 05:09 PM

Tough love I say. It teaches them that winning isn't everything..... ;)

-Ski

Jandars_Hope

May 26th, 2006, 05:22 PM

Too true! U can't win everything!

Fallen Templar

May 26th, 2006, 05:24 PM

Tough love I say. It teaches them that winning isn't everything..... ;)

-Ski So True :lol:

caravaggio

May 26th, 2006, 05:45 PM

I play with my 1 1/2 yr younger brother and he has had a winning streak of 5/6 games and he kept rubbing it in. But a few days ago i finally fought back with my trusty Tagawa Samurai and wooped his ass...took down his charos and jotan, and he got in a strop and started accussing me of cheating!?! He is such a sore loser...and a sore winner at that!

WOW! an 18 month old kid that kicks your ass and has an attitude? AMAZING! i can just see it now, a little toddler witha dirty diaper and grahmcracker all over his face talkin' smack and accusing you of cheating!

feekonea

May 26th, 2006, 05:54 PM

hey its not your fault Aranas as long as you let him win a game once in a while.

MBSowards

May 26th, 2006, 06:01 PM

He said his brother was a year and a half younger than him.

Jandars_Hope

May 26th, 2006, 06:14 PM

I'm sorry...i had a feeling that someone might get confused with the way i wrote that!!! He is 18years old!

KeeperOfPeace

May 26th, 2006, 06:18 PM

Yeah I read that wrong to. I really thought a little kid was whooping him!

@ Reaper - No offense, but are you a father/ mother? Even if you are, maybe Aranas' son is different then your everyday kid. I am sure he is smart, but you get my point. maybe he learns things differently. Me, when I play my much younger brother, I don't pull punches. His dice will do just as much damage as mine do to him. And he is very tactiful (is that a word, if not, I call dibs on the rights!). I will admit that I will take weaker units I wouldn't usually take against my friends. It also gives me a chance to try units that I wouldn't normally put together in hopes of finding some new combo that works great.

In short, I believe it depends on the child on how badly you can beat them. I know that my little brother is very competitive. Probably way more than most children. He does get upset when he loses a bunch of times, and who doesn't? I know I am not thrilled losing again and again.

Whooping up on someone smaller also gives us a chance to fix our win/ loss records ;)

reapersaurus

May 26th, 2006, 06:43 PM

@ Reaper - No offense, but are you a father/ mother? Yes, I am.
And the fact that you aren't, yet feel warranted in questioning me on basic universal kid approach 101 is baffling to me. :shrug:

Make sure you read posts here the proper way, KEeper - these are OUR OPINIONS.
For example, I am not telling Aranas to lose to his son - I am sharing that most of the time, kids prefer to win.
If that is news to you, than I don;t know what anyone can tell you to help understand this approach. :?:

Personally, I think even keeping track of win/loss records is totally in conflict with the spirit of the game, unless your in a Tournament bracket or something ultra-competetive (which this game was not designed for).

KeeperOfPeace

May 26th, 2006, 07:04 PM

Dude, chill out. First off, I don't remember even saying that I am not a father (which I am not and look forward to that day). Second, the whole win loss thing was a complete joke. That would be the whole reason of why I put the winking smily in there. And please don't speak down on me as though I am your child. And no, it is not news to me that kids enjoy winning more than losing. I even said who doesn't enjoy winning.

And uh, where exactly did you get the impression that I was saying you don't know what your talking about. I posted a nuetral post that was not only directed at you, but to everyone. Just the fact that I put your name, and was talking directly to you was not meant to insult you. I am truly sorry if it did.

Hex_Enduction_Hour

May 26th, 2006, 07:09 PM

Personally, I think even keeping track of win/loss records is totally in conflict with the spirit of the game, unless your in a Tournament bracket or something ultra-competetive (which this game was not designed for).

I never did care about wins/loses, but it's come down to me and a buddy playing regularly near every weekend. He plays for keeps and now I do too. I've kept the win/loss thing in mind - trying to do my best to win as he does the same

But the last time we played we were both big victims to the dice - it can go either way. Those dice can undermine your best laid plans and order markers.

I think it natural to play to win - what's the point if you're drafting an army you're familiar with and it's a last figure standing scenario?

I also love playing just for the fun of the game and a majority of my group are in this category. But I also love playing to win when it's one on one with that particulary friend who is just as fanatical about the game as I am.

The spirit of the game is there either way I play.

reapersaurus

May 26th, 2006, 07:40 PM

Keeper - don't tell me to chill out.
Ever.

It is a passive way of painting someone with a brush, insinuating they are mad, and misrepresenting my motivations for posting.
That's against Forum Guidelines: Speculation about another person’s motives for taking a particular position, particularly in a negative and derogatory sense.Whether you realize this or not, your post called me out for telling Aranas what to do, and you did question if I was a parent (insinuating I shouldn;t even comment on this area).

I am free to post my opinion about most kids would rather win at HS.
I am free to post my opinion that I don't like won/loss records in HS.

I don't want to hear static from anyone for stating those opinions.
If you have a problem with people stating opinions here, than PM me or an Admin. Otherwise, keep this thread to discussion about this topic, please - competetiveness with younger players.
Just because it is Friday, I am not going to accept ad hominem attacks and the all-too-tiresome "Bash on Reaper Weekend" - I am gone all weekend, running events at Kublacon for these kids and their families to learn Heroscape, and maybe enjoy the game enough to play it together (rare enough for kids to play boardgames nowadays) - and you can bet that if I have to play (instead of teach), I'm going to do my best to lose to the young player.

KeeperOfPeace

May 26th, 2006, 07:59 PM

Well don't take this wrong or anything reaper, but are you not doing the same thing as me? You insinuated that I was not an adult. Never did I once question if you were or not. I stated my own opinion. I didn't say you were wrong, I just offered the other sides view. And as I said before, I was not saying you didn't know what you were talking about.

I didn't ever say you were wrong, or your opinions were misguiding. That would be against the rules. And I didn't ever say anything negative to you or to what you said.

feekonea

May 26th, 2006, 08:13 PM

ummmm people there is an ignore button!

TheRealQ

May 26th, 2006, 08:24 PM

WOW! an 18 month old kid that kicks your ass and has an attitude? AMAZING! i can just see it now, a little toddler witha dirty diaper and grahmcracker all over his face talkin' smack and accusing you of cheating!

:rofl: I am in pain from laughing at this post

TheRealQ

May 26th, 2006, 09:11 PM

Whoa...just finished reading all the posts. I didn't know we were allowed to freely express our opinions. To think, I've been holding back all this time with concern for everyone's feelings....hee hee hee

I can't remember who posted it but it is true that all kids are different. I failed to mention that my 9 yr old is academically advanced and could probably play with (and beat) most adults. My style of teaching him comes from my own father. My father was a chess master. He never let me win against him. It took years before my first win. The main thing I do differently is that I discuss the actions and results with my son, and assure him that he is improving. Later as an adult, stuck in the desert with a bunch of stinky Marines and only a chess set for entertainment, I discovered just how good I was.

If my teaching style doesn't work for anyone else its probably because they have a different audience.

As far as the original post goes I was simply telling him honestly what I would have done in the same situation and offer a potential follow up solution. I consider the Father-Son relationship to be one of the best things this life has to offer; and I say that from both sides.

As far as feeling bad about winning...me too. I feel bad if I'm playing someone and they keep getting crap rolls and lose due to luck (against adults too). I would prefer to lose a good game than win a crappy one. Since I feel that way, and I follow the Golden Rule, I treat others as though they play that way and give them the best game I can. I would feel insulted if someone threw a game for me and I believe my son would feel the same. Yes, he enjoys winning but he enjoys learning even more; but that is how I raised him.

Hex_Enduction_Hour

May 26th, 2006, 09:59 PM

As far as feeling bad about winning...me too. I feel bad if I'm playing someone and they keep getting crap rolls and lose due to luck (against adults too). I would prefer to lose a good game than win a crappy one. Since I feel that way, and I follow the Golden Rule, I treat others as though they play that way and give them the best game I can. I would feel insulted if someone threw a game for me and I believe my son would feel the same. Yes, he enjoys winning but he enjoys learning even more; but that is how I raised him.

Eh. I still wouldn't give the tough love playing style to my son who I bought the game for when he was 5.
The game can barely hold the attention of a 6-year old long enough for him get past the order markers - and my son has very good attention.

It's a game recommended for 8 years and older. When I think he's old enough and ready to play dad, he'll get the full brunt of my Heroscape powers :twisted:

Oprime

May 26th, 2006, 10:22 PM

TheRealQ

May 26th, 2006, 10:26 PM

Eh. I still wouldn't give the tough love playing style to my son who I bought the game for when he was 5.
The game can barely hold the attention of a 6-year old long enough for him get past the order markers - and my son has very good attention

It's a game recommended for 8 years and older. When I think he's old enough and ready to play dad, he'll get the full brunt of my Heroscape powers

I see (and agree with) your point. I still have yet to teach my son Spades because I don't think he is ready for the viscousness of our extended family. (4 generations of Spades players)

TheRealQ

May 26th, 2006, 10:30 PM

When my 9yr old son beats me. He beats me. Ive never let him win.

He once drafted all the dragons, and after much "teaching" how that is not the best strategy etc etc, He kicked my butt.

I no longer lecture him about drafting or how to play....

:lol: Luckily I haven't experienced that yet. I need a beer after reading that. I'll drink one for you too. :toast:

Aranas

May 26th, 2006, 10:40 PM

Wow! I'm glad to see my thread progressed to become what it is now! We really have a great community here!

KeeperOfPeaceIt also gives me a chance to try units that I wouldn't normally put together in hopes of finding some new combo that works great.
This is truly one of the good aspects of it, trying figures I usually don't use.

TheRealQAs far as feeling bad about winning...me too. I feel bad if I'm playing someone and they keep getting crap rolls and lose due to luck (against adults too). I would prefer to lose a good game than win a crappy one. Since I feel that way, and I follow the Golden Rule, I treat others as though they play that way and give them the best game I can. I would feel insulted if someone threw a game for me and I believe my son would feel the same. Yes, he enjoys winning but he enjoys learning even more; but that is how I raised him.

Aha! TheRealQ, I'm so glad to read that! I'm not alone in this universe! :) I feel that way even when doing sports like beach volleyball that I love doing. I will always give the best I can but I prefer to lose 23-25 in a hard game then winning 25-4 against a team not putting the efforts in! All the way!!!

Back on the game with my son, I forgot to mention to you that he feels insulted if he realises that I'm letting him win. I also didn't mention that I also explain most of my moves/strategies during the game or right after so he can learn and improve. He loves playing boardgames with stategy involve like chess, Risk, Stratego to name a few.

I wonder who gave him this virus :wink:

TheRealQ

May 26th, 2006, 11:07 PM

Back on the game with my son, I forgot to mention to you that he feels insulted if he realises that I'm letting him win. I also didn't mention that I also explain most of my moves/strategies during the game or right after so he can learn and improve. He loves playing boardgames with stategy involve like chess, Risk, Stratego to name a few.

I wonder who gave him this virus :wink:

Sounds like my relationship with my son.

Aranas

May 26th, 2006, 11:32 PM

I think we share mostly the same opinion here TheRealQ.

"There are no stupid questions." True, but there are lazy ones.
BTW your "signature statement" reminds me of my director back from my days at the University. He used to say:
"There are no stupid questions. It's better to feel idiot for a minute or two instead of staying one for the rest of your life" 8)

Gambit

June 1st, 2006, 08:26 PM

ive had that happen with me and my brother:

he had charos and i had krug i won,(DUH)and he got upset, sortly after i beat his lava mount dude that i cant remember its name to my sir denrick he then left the room whining and coming up with some conspirasy therory that i had cheated some how :roll:

Double Oak

June 2nd, 2006, 10:20 AM

My son is 7 and quite bright. We generally negotiate ahead of time how many extra points he should get. He understands I have played more and knows I am going 100% in the game so takes some advantage (450 vs. 400 pt, etc). I too explain moves, give him advice sometimes pre-move, sometimes post - his call.

He has been great about staying positive even in a loss, but if he loses too often he gets beat down so I will advise him of a stronger army and take an experimental army myself. Last game, I was going full on against him but he had KM agents, got Finn's aura on them, had the attack glyph and height and it was UGLY. We started out with a 600 pt vs 450 pt army (he had lost several and was a bit down so I gave him better odds) and quickly it became clear I was in trouble so he let me add another 150 to make it even. I added Sgt. Drake and Guilty only to have his vipers frenzy three straight times and all but wipe out Drake. In the end, he decimated me and was THRILLED, all past losses were forgotten, and he is back to bugging me daily about playing again!

Only once did I go easy on him in a game and he came back and whupped me (that was the game that inspired my sig). I do personally think it is legitimate to let him have more points - time will tell if I still feel that way when he has been playing longer (HS was a Christmas present this past yr) and he is older. Personally, playing with him has been a GREAT bonding experience (my quota of hugs from his has skyrocketed), incredible learning opportunity for him (strategy and math) has allowed me to try different combos and really experience a great number of characters and made me a much, much better player with my friends as a result.

Truly our dilemma is finding other kids smart enough to play against him (pretty tough game for a kid to master if they don't own it and play it regularly, i.e. just at our house).

Good luck with your kid and here is to many great hours of bonding, learning and great gaming!

Buddy Lee

June 2nd, 2006, 10:26 AM

All I could think of as I read this thread:

"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women! "

Buddy Lee

Aranas

June 2nd, 2006, 11:11 AM

Thank you Double Oak. What you wrote is exactly in line with my thread. Glad to see it is still alive!

HeroScape is a great game to play with your kids AND to play between competitive adults. It reminds me of chess. Two players of 8 playing chess beside two professionnal players (say two Russians). The game is the same but yet sooooo different!

toddrew

June 2nd, 2006, 11:12 AM

For what it's worth, my son (8 now, we've been playing sparodically since he was 6) has come to cherish the small victories through out the game - keeps his spirits up when things aren't going well for him.

Recent example I can think of was a three player game (which is basically he and a friend against me, in which case I do need to play "full-on" to have a chance as they've twice the points and twice the turns!), where due to his over over-agressiveness I had whittled his army down before having to fully contend with his buddy. He was down to a couple of knights who were engaged with two of my minions that had height advantage and blocked the path to relinquishing it. I encouraged him to stick it out, as by at the least harassing the minions (who weren't about to disengaged :) ) and maybe taking one or two out, he'd be greatly helping his friend. I proceeded to roll 2 skulls on his first knight, which about put him over the edge, but his four shield roll saved more than his knight, and was probably gave him enough satisfaction no matter were to happen next. Which was deja vu. 2 skulls, 4 shields. Then on his attack he rolled one skull which I swiftly countered with a 7 DD roll reaping no shields. The state of ecstasy reached by that boy may keep him well-adjusted through to his mid-teens :) Party ended there, though :twisted:

Anyway, not to go Dr, Spock on everyone, but it has been fun watching his development through the game, O, and all that other crap we've got going on in our lives :lol: .

Double Oak

June 3rd, 2006, 09:14 PM

Interestingly, as a follow up piece, I am currently in a game with my 7 yr old, who has only needed critical advice once and has me in real trouble. He has an agent on high ground, with Finn's Aura and the attack glyph, i.e. rolling 6, and is on the range and wind glyph (i.e. no flying) and has all my flying characters in his sights who cannot get him because of the dadgum no flying glyph.

Simply put, he is slaughtering me and there is not much I can do about it as there is only one non-flying path up to the agent and he gets multiple shots on the character with 6 dice - thinking it will soon be time for me to run from the room sobbing!! :cry:

Needless to say, however, I have one very happy 7 yr old on my hands.........

TheRealQ

June 3rd, 2006, 10:00 PM

Double Oak, I understand about the difficulty of finding competition for my son. If he plays any of his friends without me there he slaughters them without mercy. He is great at playing the game. Just not great at explaining it. His one buddy that is left willing to play only does so if I play too at which point they gang up on me.

Maybe some of the other DFW guys have sons as well. If so it might be fun for someone to organize a Father/Son Heroscape Gameday with everyone matching up in Father & Son teams. This way your son could meet other boys that have skills.

Double Oak

June 4th, 2006, 11:52 PM

As I get to know the DFW crew better, my hope is to host a father/son day. Several of the guys have sons although not all are HSers just yet.

He loves playing with the adults but really wants some kids his age to play. We have gotten several friends from church interested but so far no serious players.

P.S. As per my game that I reported on that he and I we were playing in, after whiffing on getting the AE in for 4 rounds, he dropped them in right after my last post, got them on high ground, put them on the second attack +1 glyph (we each had one on our side of the board and he had blown my Sentinels off of all my glyphs), we added both attack +1's to their height advantage and then he had 3 AE shooting 6 attack and one 5 attack. With no flying due to the wind glyph, Braxas died in one turn, Nilf shortly thereafter, Kelda, Guilty and my last two Samuari follwed in turn. Ugly.

I got one of the AE but in the end it was the worst whupping of my life. We both started with 850 pt armies and I took out 390 of his points before he wiped out all 850 of mine. OUCH!!!!!!

Lest ya think I am easy pickens, I am actually pretty good at this game, having only lost once to anyone besides him and that was on a DFW gameday when my teamate Ultra Doug was sleep deprived and we had a newbie for a third teamate going up against Ninthdoc, Vivenne and Rodriquez.

In summary:
Big old plywood board we use for the gameboard - $15
Heroscape figurines and tiles - roughly $500
Getting demolished by your 7 yr old and watching him walk on air with a big goofy grin on his face ever since - priceless!!!!

KeeperOfPeace

June 5th, 2006, 12:01 AM

No offense double oak, but do you under estimate your son a lot? Or was it just those 2 times that got you punished for it? The other time being the 3 agents as in your signature.

Just wondering if it is you, or if your son is some type of hybrid child predator that just lures you into thinking you can win until he pounces and crushes you beneath his talons of victory? Or is that your son lurks in the shadows of loss and plunder until you slip up thinking victory is in your reach, then he attacks with the force of a thousand men and crushes you and your soldiers? Think that is a creative response? Its cause I am a fictional writer lol. Or, is it because I am tired? Heh, who knows.

Once again, no offense.

Double Oak

June 5th, 2006, 09:46 AM

Believe this was actually the fifth time he beat me. First two times were when we first played the road to the forgotten forest and I was keeper of the bridge and he had to get a character on the bridge and live one round or have a majority of the bridge or something like that. Don't fully remember the scenario.

The little twit figured out Agent Carr was perfect for this maneuver as he went through my guarding figure and raised havoc with my agents. Being stubborn I knew it wouldn't work twice and challenged him for a rematch and he did it again!!! Took a long time to convince him that Agent Carr was not suited for every situation and shouldn't be drafted for every game (he had a long losing streak with his new Carr strategy).

Third loss led to the signature several months ago and then we have these last two unfortunate (for me) games.

As per the little munchkin sandbagging so that the defeat will be that much more vicious and crushing, you may be on to something. Once he negotiated that I should give counsel pre-move vs. post-move, the tables have turned dramatically and he has won two straight including the aforementioned victory of Biblical proportions.

Haven't noticed his head rotate yet mid-game nor has pea soup spewed out of his mouth but I shall now begin to pay more attention to such clues! If he continues to dominate me like these last two I may revise my opinion of him!!!!

At least I can still take out my frustration on my buddies in our Thur night games - maybe I can even get one of them to leave the room sobbing :twisted:

Rÿchean

June 5th, 2006, 10:24 AM

Double Oak,

We do have quite a few father/son tandems in the DFW gaming group.

I have two sons: one 12; He is a very good player; he placed 10th in the 26 person tourney we had in December, sadly his interest is fading. Fortunately, I have a 6 year old ready to step up and take his place. ;-)

Imax has an 11 year old boy who hangs with the big boys quite easily.

My brother has a very sharp 10 year old who knows the game about as well as I do.

Ninthdoc also has an up and coming 6 year old.

There was another young man at the Dallas tourney, I beleive he was 10, He placed 7th. Sadly he and his family are not regulars to the group; they live a little further out.

I see you are coming to Ninthdoc's June 17th get together. There will be kids galore at that event. Looking forward to meeting you!

Ry

Grungebob

June 5th, 2006, 10:29 AM

There was another young man at the Dallas tourney, I beleive he was 10, He placed 7th. Sadly he and his family are not regulars to the group; they live a little further outI think I took 6th place

Rÿchean

June 5th, 2006, 10:39 AM

There was another young man at the Dallas tourney, I beleive he was 10, He placed 7th. Sadly he and his family are not regulars to the group; they live a little further outI think I took 6th place

You wish GB! ;-) You were sandwiched between me at 8 and my son at 10. Number 9; but you did draw UPC(1st) and Lilwis(5th) The only top 10 I played was Imax, and I got soundly thrashed.

Top 10 refresher :-D

UPC (5-0)
IMAX (4-1)
UD (3-2)
AAhzmandius (3-2)
Lilwis (3-1)
SAint (3-1)
Jeremy (3-1)
Rychean (3-1)
GB (2-2)
Kyle (2-2)

It would be nice to squeeze one in before Gencon. Maybe UPC's thing will end up being a tournament.

Grungebob

June 5th, 2006, 10:40 AM

:shock: Haha!! I guess I did better in my dreams!!! lol!!!

Rÿchean

June 5th, 2006, 10:52 AM

:-D sorry GB :-D I overanaylzed that tourney so it is all etched in my mind....

speaking of which, don't you have the tourney sheets or did you throw 'em out?

Grungebob

June 5th, 2006, 10:57 AM

somewhere I'm sure!

morgonis

June 5th, 2006, 04:29 PM

back to the original post where your 8yr old son ran sobbing from the room.....may have been a prime time to teach him several rules of life...such as "finish what you start", "dont give up", and "how to lose"

my father never played any games with me until i was 8, then he taught me otherllo and chess (hes 2 favorite games) he never once went easy on me and i was 15 before i had won a game of chess against him, STILL havent won Othello yet btw (im 30 incidently)..

whats my point?...if my father had went easy on me and let me win sooner, i would have prolly expected much in life to work out if i only tried a little and trusted on everything else involved to fall my way instead of working hard for it and in essence makeing it happen.

no offense ment, everyone raises their children different, just seems many of the kids these days are held back from the realitys to much...no offense, just my opnion

Double Oak

June 6th, 2006, 10:00 PM

Back to one of our subdiscussions in this thread

Good to know we have so many sons in the local HS group! As I get to know the folks better, will definitely get some Dad/son games going here in DFW area.

Figures that my son is going to be outta town on the next local game day - ah but there are many game days ahead!

Mr. Underhill

June 6th, 2006, 10:11 PM

Anything similar happened to you?

No. You ara a cold, heartless bastard! :wink:

I've got 4 squids, and play mostly with my 9 year old. Sometimes he wins, sometimes he loses.

I agree with the sentiments expressed earlier in this thread: kids need to learn that they can't win all the time. They need to observe their role model being a gracious winner and a good loser - so that they can learn to be the same.

On occasion I have played with a handicap to even the game up a little. Junior has more points to draft than me for example - I get 400 and he gets 500. Alternatively, I'll draft 400 and junior can pick whomever he likes for his team.

You could also place glyphs closer to his starting position.

I reckon the example you've cited, whilst not impossible, would not be a regular occurence - namely the AE drop right off the kick-off into his zone. This teaches the little ones that chance can deal all sorts of kooky events - which can be undesirable for someone and fortunate for others.

Here endeth my child psychology session. :wink:

Mr. Underhill

Aranas

June 6th, 2006, 10:21 PM

Fun to exchange with you on this subject Mr Underhill, despite the distance. Perth Australia! I hope you get better distribution of HeroScape products than up here in Canada...

Back on the subjet, one thing my son is still unable to accept is to loose a DeathWalker in the first round. I suggested to him to draft other figures but those big robots are soo cool! :wink:

Mr. Underhill

June 6th, 2006, 11:39 PM

Yeah, my boys are the same. Sometimes they can't see past the first impression.

There have been several occasions when they've drafted Mimring, Grimnak, DW9K, etc only to have them wiped out by seemingly minor characters.

Kids are kids, and they're pretty much the same whether they're Aussie kids or Canadian kids. This offers us a great opportunity to teach them to look beyond the external features and examine each character for their hidden talents or weaknesses. I'm not saying that this is always applicable in the real world, but it may just be.

For me, the best part is talking my boys through the choices that they are making whilst at the same time, letting them make mistakes of their own and discussing what they could have done differently.

I agree with other comments made earlier: generations of today are victims of being mollycoddled by over-protective parents/carers. It's finding the right balance though, and I reckon playing games (like HS) offers us a great opportunity to bond with and teach our kids in a safe environment.

You gotta look at yourself as a father and see if you're like Homer J. Simpson, Ned Flanders or somewhere in between. :D

When I was a kid, my dad used to tell me, "A man who never made a mistake, never made f@*k all!" Admittedly he was not a cultured fellow, and his language was rather colourful, but I still got the message.

Mr. Underhill

DoesntCompute

June 6th, 2006, 11:50 PM

I tried something different with my oldest (10) last weekend. We were playing Chess and usually, I talk about the moves he could make or why he should have done something different and he has started to get frustrated. Last weekend, I said, "let's play a learning game." The idea was not to win but to learn. Both of us explained what we were trying to do with our moves and then we discussed whether that was a good plan. I would tell him that I was moving piece X so that I could pin his pawn with my next move. We would then figure out together what his best options were to avoid the trap I was setting. We both learned a lot and there were no hard feelings because the stated goal was to learn not to win.

Mr. Underhill

June 7th, 2006, 12:02 AM

I tried something different with my oldest (10) last weekend....

Choice! Great stuff, that could be applied to HS play with the little people, eh?

Mr. Underhill

markwars

June 7th, 2006, 11:18 AM

Let me start by saying that I am lucky enough to live in the DFW area, so I do get my chances to play other adults from time to time. But on a day to day basis my only HS partner is my six year-old son (he'll be seven at the end of this summer). There was very little chance that he wouldn't initially like this game. It has cool figures (which he likes regardless of the game) and buildable terrain (which he also likes regardless of the game) so he's going to want to play with the pieces no matter what. As a dad my wish is that by the time he's 9 or 10 he'll be a competent player that can at the very least hold his own against other kids his age. And my dream is that he will love to play this game with me even when he's visiting me in the nursing home. So I have had to strategize about my very approach to Heroscape.

There are two things that I am really really trying to avoid. Number One is making my son hate this game because of the way I play it. Number Two is giving him a bad attitude about winning or losing. It's a double edged sword. On the one hand I can teach him by example and dust him game after game and tell him "that's life". On the other hand I can let him beat me to give him that carrot while foregoing any real life lessons thus indulging my desire to have him play me. Neither of those seemed like much fun so I've taken a different approach. There are ways to show kids the nuances of the game while letting them feel in control. Here are some of the ways we play...

Unit vs. Unit play - This way of playing came to me after participating in Kentak's awesome "last man standing" event last year. What we do is simply play one card vs one card. It's very useful when we get new figures to just try them out and see how they work in game play. It's also very quick and if my son loses there's twenty more matches within an hour. As long as he is occasionally winning and we keep switching up units his attention is locked on.

He Drafts - This way of playing has taught me more about the game than him perhaps. I always let him know that he better give me a crummy army because when we play this way I give no quarter. Typically he will select about 800 points worth of large figures and heroes and I'll be stuck with about 200 points worth of figures he doesn't particularly like. This method has taught me how to utilize figures I myself would never choose and how to capitalize on better figures' weaknesses. By letting your kids decide on your army they can also learn that perceived crappy figures can sometimes be really good and that the figures everyone likes have problems too. After about a year of this kind of play I know he is getting smarter because he's making better and better decisions about which figures to give me to ensure a win for himself. He may not be making macro-level strategy decisions yet, but having a good knowledge of what figures do what is paying off for him.

Scenario play rather than Match play - This is a way to play that both of us enjoy. We build a huge map, place all sorts of baddies on it, and then let him choose a force to achieve the objective with. The good things about this...it teaches him how to build good maps, it teaches him how draft an army based on his opponent, and it never puts me in the villains seat. I'm merely the Dungeon Master (so to speak) and he's the only participant. If he loses he doesn't feel like Dad beat him, and if he needs advice along the way he feels like it's fair to ask me.

These are the three most effective ways I've found to keep his interest and ego intact. These types of play also serve my own selfish desire to train my son to be a Heroscape master. 8)

Having said all that there are still times where I feel like it's appropriate to play him straight up draft matches and either beat him or let him win. It's my job as a parent to know when the appropriate type of play is needed. Heck sometimes it's best to not even use the rules and instead chuck marbles at figures in his sandbox. :wink:

Mr. Underhill

June 7th, 2006, 12:37 PM

markwars,

Wow! Fantastic ideas. I like the "one on one" play, and the "He drafts" concepts. Thanks mate!

As I've said before, I play mostly with master 9 yr. But I also have master 11yr that I'd like to play with and especially have some quality time with. Problem is, he is autistic and doesn't function the same as my other kids, but I really want to have the same fun with him as I do with master 9.

His developmental disorder means that he is sometimes rigid and concrete in his thinking, so your play methods have given me some valuable inspiration that may help me get my little disabled boy having some fun with his brother and I.

Thanks again!! :D

Mr. Underhill

markwars

June 7th, 2006, 04:02 PM

You put it all in perspective Mr. Underhill. Good luck with your pursuit. I wish you all the success in the world. :wink:

Kepler

June 7th, 2006, 04:33 PM

I play with my 4.5 yo and I let him win a lot, but some times he gets mad if he wins to much and we have to keep playing until I win.

If my kids cries when he loses a game when he is 8 then it will be time for a serious talk about sportsmanship.

Kepler

June 7th, 2006, 04:39 PM

Unit vs. Unit play - This way of playing came to me after participating in Kepler's awesome "last man standing" event last year. What we do is simply play one card vs one card. It's very useful when we get new figures to just try them out and see how they work in game play. It's also very quick and if my son loses there's twenty more matches within an hour. As long as he is occasionally winning and we keep switching up units his attention is locked on.

Due to my son's age, this is mostly the way we play right now. Or we play 2 or 3 lesser units against 1 tougher unit (MBS and 2 Marrden Hound units against Charros is one of my favorites).

markwars

June 7th, 2006, 04:46 PM

Well I want to thank you Kepler for having that event. It added a new dimension of gameplay for my son and I. :wink:

LilNewbie

June 7th, 2006, 04:51 PM

Well I want to thank you Kepler for having that event. It added a new dimension of gameplay for my son and I. :wink:

Can you explain how the rules worked for the single card vs. single card game, please? Sounds like a cool idea.

Newb.

markwars

June 7th, 2006, 05:07 PM

Lil Newbie the rules aren't much.

Pick two cards. Have them roll initiative each round and try to pound each other on a flat playing surface comprised of two large grass tiles laid side by side.:lol:

I believe Kepler's tourney attempted to even the odds a bit by using multiple like units for one side to make the points cost close to even. Perhaps he will refresh our memories...

CupidsArt

June 7th, 2006, 05:34 PM

I won ! :) (...but I'm so disappointed... :( )

Anything similar happened to you?

Anyone who attended Truth's tournement know's how emotional my little Bro can be. There have been many a time where I have done my best to throw a game just so he can feel better about what he played. he can draft well but he still hasn't gotten any strategy down.

Another Game was against my GF, before this game she had won every single battle we had ever had against each other. This time around she rolled badly and just could not keep anything alive. After the win I didn't feel great or happy, it was almost like I was meant to kick the bucket instead of her. She won the next weekend but that one game was just no fun.

Mr. Underhill

June 8th, 2006, 07:57 AM

Pick two cards. Have them roll initiative each round and try to pound each other on a flat playing surface comprised of two large grass tiles laid side by side
We tried this for the first time earlier this evening, although we added one 7 piece for height and one ruin - just to mix things up a little.

I first played with master 9yrs then encouraged master 11yrs to take my place. Worked really well!

We did have one variation though: Each player picks a card.
After defeating the opponent, the winning figure returns to the starting position.
The winning card stays on to take on the next figure.
See how many opponents you can beat with one card/figure.

Thanks for the great idea, guys!

Mr. Underhill

markwars

June 8th, 2006, 09:50 AM

Kind of a king of the hill approach. I like it. :)

Kepler

June 8th, 2006, 09:50 AM

Well I want to thank you Kepler for having that event. It added a new dimension of gameplay for my son and I. :wink:

I don't remember any event. You must be confusing me with someone else. But in case I have lost my mind, then you are welcome.

markwars

June 8th, 2006, 09:52 AM

Kepler I thought for sure it was you that ran the thread on HQ where you put a ton of unit cards into a bracket and then battled them. The other members of HQ tried to predict who would win each round and then you tallied the results. Was that not you? :oops:

Kepler

June 8th, 2006, 02:39 PM

LilNewbie

June 8th, 2006, 03:00 PM

Wasn't that Happyjosiah?

Newb.

Bannister

June 8th, 2006, 03:09 PM

Wasn't that Happyjosiah?

Newb.

I think you are correct.

Bannister

Aranas

June 8th, 2006, 10:24 PM

It's funny how a thread can evolve! Thank you all for what it has become. I even wonder if I should rename it?
The father and son thread?
Playing with youngsters?
Life lessons through HeroScape?
At first, when I initiated this thread, I was simply looking for battle story where, after spending one or two hours of setting (making the map, teaching the rules and drafting) you had a short victory that left you almost unhappy of the result. It then turned out as a mature and VERY interesting thread about interacting/playing with kids/sons/whatever, about teaching them important life aspects through a game, about a nice way to lay a bridge between you and your son/nephew. It is now more a psychology/philosophy thread where poeple share their own experience with kids and propose trics to make it even better!
As I said before, we have quite an interesting community here. 8)

DoesntCompute

June 8th, 2006, 11:14 PM

a nice way to lay a bridge between you and your son/nephew.

or daughter/niece...

Mr. Underhill

June 9th, 2006, 12:21 AM

markwars

June 9th, 2006, 07:54 AM

Who was the user at HQ that had a million posts and an avatar of a couple of hands playing a guitar?

ultradoug

June 9th, 2006, 08:32 AM

It then turned out as a mature and VERY interesting thread about interacting/playing with kids/sons/whatever, about teaching them important life aspects through a game

Yeah, wait until Ultradoug finds it :wink:

Mr. Underhill

Space...

the final fronter

these are the journeys of Epic.

Its on going missinon , to make sure that Every post is crazy.
to seek out strange and bezare things.
to post
what no one else in there right mind.
would ever post.

lalalalallad!

"Epic log, day 92014014 point five."

"Its been like, a year and heroscapes evolved beound whatever hasborg wanted to be, maybe those Wizards on that Coast might take over, I'm not sure, all I know is that womens with big spears and small breasts can apperently summon beast riders carring loads of insain rulls"

"Sir? That log makes no sence."

"QUIET YOU! Now then, once upon a time, a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away..."

"Thats the other movie sir..."

"I said quiet! The next word out of you and you will be shot into cyber space though a garbage choot!"

"You sure thats the right spelling?"

"Thats it! BAm to the moon with you! Take that Alace... or whatever your name was, darn it all. If this hill was not on top of me I'd be doing so much better, what is that avator above me saying anyway? I dont know I should make a topic about that. Has anyone ever realise that Topic is really To Pic. So we nead more pics, yes lots of pics of things that I cant talk about or they will be ghost admind - rember boys and girls there are no mods!"

"Ahh yes, I should be mod, once upon a time I had so meny useful things, I was a community leader, and people loved me, then waterfall guy killed it along with tshirt guy but blog guy and some hero dude saved me and I made lots of epic movies but then some little girl came and won a contest then I made fun of that and people got mad, meen while I posted like a millon posts in Nindocs bar because I wanted it to hit 1000 or somethng and some mod got all mad and my ablity to be mod was lost, lost! All becuase of hasborg not taking my idea for mettalscape serously! I beged them! Dont you know that penname was really doctor who! ITs true!"

"Anyway, So thats todays mission, I'm gonna send some redshirts to die now."

Ladadad!

Join us next time on Epic-Trek-Scape, the evil Hasborg has captured our hero UltraDoug!

"I am La-Cute-Ous of Hasborg, restance is futale...."

What will happen next? Tune in to win! (restrictions apply open only to minors skyknight won this contest after someone else on the page on HQ tuned it down becuase it costed alot of money, unit bios comming soon.)

Aranas

June 9th, 2006, 09:12 AM

ultradoug

June 9th, 2006, 09:15 AM

he summoned me as I was carrying the epic post.

Mr. Underhill

June 9th, 2006, 09:22 AM

Sorry guys, I think he's thread-stalking me. :D

Told you he'd find it. :lol:

There goes the neighbourhood! :o Welcome, UD. Come in and make yourself comfortable - try not to break anything. Wait.... those are antiques.... * glass shatters *

Mr. Underhill

ultradoug

June 9th, 2006, 09:23 AM

my avi looks like its not spining what the bane?!

Aranas

June 9th, 2006, 09:25 AM

Do you have kids UD? Do you play with kids, errr... I mean do you play HeroScape with kids?

ultradoug

June 9th, 2006, 09:28 AM

yes

Aranas

June 9th, 2006, 09:30 AM

Could you make a shorter answer please?

Mr. Underhill

June 9th, 2006, 09:32 AM

my avi looks like its not spining what the bane?!

That's because you're blinking your eyes UD. Take a deep breath.... that's it.... now, relax.... focus on the spinning Gaylord....

Focus....

Focus....

http://home.amnet.net.au/~enigma1/heroscape/focus.jpg

ultradoug

June 9th, 2006, 09:41 AM

wow i can read most those words...

but no its something wrong on my side, reseting again -_-

lilwis

June 9th, 2006, 09:52 AM

While UD works on his taelord, I just have to say GREAT POST! Markwars.
I will most definately try this new game play style with my youngin's

Any post that features a parent/kid connection moment is just heartwarming to me. Maybe I'm just sappy that way.

markwars

June 9th, 2006, 10:10 AM

I just remembered! :shock:

It was Kenntak that ran that contest. How could we all forget that. For shame! For shame!

Kenntak if you see this I'm sorry. :oops:

lilwis if you're sappy then I'm a maple syrup farm. I got a bit choked up when I read Mr. Underhill's post after my long post. :cry:

Double Oak

June 9th, 2006, 11:16 PM

Mr. Underhill

June 9th, 2006, 11:42 PM

Quick question on the king of the hill game. Do wounds and losses carry over from one game to the next? If not, then Braxas or a similar biggy might stay alive forever. If they carry over, I think the son and I could have some real fun with that one.

Hmmmm. When we played, wounds were removed - as if there was a healing between games or the prize for winning was the removal of wound markers.

You could make the game a little more realistic by:
Carrying the wounds over, or
Keeping a healing figure on your side and rolling as appropriate to determine wound healing as you would in the game proper.

Let us all know if there are better variations to these mini-games.

Mr. Underhill

markwars

June 10th, 2006, 11:31 AM

I think that anyway you play it is fine. The point is that you are playing with your son and you're both having fun. Use what rules you want and ditch the ones you don't want. There are no right or wrong ways to do this.

markwars

July 21st, 2006, 12:49 PM

Has anyone devised new ways to play with the kids since we last discussed this?

Also, do you think your kids will be more interested in the Marvel Scape set?

Aranas

July 22nd, 2006, 10:17 AM

Has anyone devised new ways to play with the kids since we last discussed this?

Also, do you think your kids will be more interested in the Marvel Scape set?
Hello Markwars! My thread is still alive!

I do not think my kid would be interested in MarvelScape. His interest in HeroScape is mostly with swords, beasts and dragons. He loves playing Charos, Jotun, Krug and melee units.

I haven't found new ways to play with kids but 3 players FFA is definitely not working with 8 yo. kids. They almost always gang upon one player and then finish the game one on one. So when doing a three player game with kids, it is better to have a scenario or an objective. Some examples that comes to mind:
- official scenario
- kill the player on your left
- counting points killed (one grut = 10 points, etc.)
- having to find a specific glyph and transport it somewhere
- scoring point every turn one of your figure is on specific hexes on the map
- Playing two on one with more points for one player
- Playing two on one with one player defending an advantageous place on the map and drafting first
- being the first one to hold three of four strategic hexes on the map
- etc...

Any other ideas for three players?

Codeman

July 22nd, 2006, 10:29 AM

Has anyone devised new ways to play with the kids since we last discussed this?

Also, do you think your kids will be more interested in the Marvel Scape set?

I don't have little kids anymore.... but if I remember, sound effects work good while playing games. HS would be a good canidate for sound effects ( dice rolling, movement, attacks, and of couse the slow death ) I might even practice my arrow wistle bye and hit sounds when my Orc archers take their shots. Krug would also be fun to make up some sounds for.

Give it a try it's fun... I might even start up again ( I may annoy some adults but hey it may take them out of their game ).

robaula

July 23rd, 2006, 06:59 PM

oh yes... rolled five skulls against my sons Agent Carr (cant remember what I was using) Agent Carr still had all of his wounds. My son obviously had a great and amazing plan for Carr, but, unfortunately ( :lol: ) he rolled no shields in his defence roll and Carr kicked the bucket from that one shot. Result? One dead Carr, and one 15 year old son with tears.... was I feeling guilty? erm.... :wink:

spiderM9

July 24th, 2006, 02:11 AM

I've found a way to play against my 7 year old son that works pretty well. First thing is that I tell him my strategy at the beginning of each round, or at least key parts of it. Things like "I'm going to try to get Claw to grab so-and-so and then kill him off with my Agents". The other thing is that if he's making a really bad move, I'll tell him why it seems bad -- before he lets go, we play with "as long as you're still touching, you can take it back."

Playing this way, without me holding back at all, on average, we each win about half the time. On occasion he really just wipes me out. I think it also helps him learn about the whole concept if strategy too. Some of the best moments come when I'm explaining why a move might not be a good idea and he comes back with, "No dad, you don't know my strategy."