Play passes to the left

[AmishBurrito]

According to the rules, teams sit on opposite sides of the board and play passes to the left. This means that if there is a 3v3 or 4v4 game, each team would all go before the other team goes.
I dislike this style, and at the beginning of games, we decide the who is "to each players left" making sure that we alternate between teams.
Who alll plays each way?

[K/H_Addict]

i play all team members go at once most of the time. i think this way is quicker.

[Augray]

Here is a variation that we have done with team play. Each team decides on their turn order before initiative is rolled. In other words Team A decides Tom will go first, Dick will go second, and Harry will go third. Team B decides Larry will go first, Mo will go second, and Curly will go third. The selections are done written down without the other team knowing.

Order markers are then placed, initiative is rolled once per team. The teams order is revealed and players take their turns alternating teams according to the predetermined order.

The next round each team can chose a different order.

[Dreaded Gazebo]

Neither. We always go from high to low initiative.

[AgentX-127]

Team members sit opposite each other.

Roll Initiative...highest goes first, then play passes to the left.

[allskulls]

This got me thinking...what if you alternate teams but choose each turn which player on your team goes. Ofcourse number order will remain intact, so if you do your number 1 marker, you will have to wait for all your teamates to do their #1 before you do #2.

[toddrew]

This got me thinking...what if you alternate teams but choose each turn which player on your team goes. Ofcourse number order will remain intact, so if you do your number 1 marker, you will have to wait for all your teamates to do their #1 before you do #2.

Interesting house rule. We don't get the opportunity to play many 'team' games, but I'll suggest we try this out at some point.

[Aranas]

We ALWAYS alternate between teams. Lets say team A and B:
Player A1 marker #1, Player B1 marker #1, player A2 marker #1, player B2 marker #2, and then we start again player A1 marker #2...

Team members sit opposite each other.
Roll Initiative...highest goes first, then play passes to the left.

The official rule is really strange... On a 3 Vs 3 --> three players of the same team moving and attacking in a row!!!! :shock:

It's only when reading this thread I realised this is the first "house rule" we did put in place since the very beginning.

Aranas

[Aranas]

This got me thinking...what if you alternate teams but choose each turn which player on your team goes. Ofcourse number order will remain intact, so if you do your number 1 marker, you will have to wait for all your teamates to do their #1 before you do #2.

This is an interesting way to do it. Worth trying.

[daevablacc]

Here is a variation that we have done with team play. Each team decides on their turn order before initiative is rolled. In other words Team A decides Tom will go first, Dick will go second, and Harry will go third. Team B decides Larry will go first, Mo will go second, and Curly will go third. The selections are done written down without the other team knowing.

Order markers are then placed, initiative is rolled once per team. The teams order is revealed and players take their turns alternating teams according to the predetermined order.

The next round each team can chose a different order.
That's exactly what we do. Do you chose the team order in secret like we do?

[Augray]

Here is a variation that we have done with team play. Each team decides on their turn order before initiative is rolled. In other words Team A decides Tom will go first, Dick will go second, and Harry will go third. Team B decides Larry will go first, Mo will go second, and Curly will go third. The selections are done written down without the other team knowing.

Order markers are then placed, initiative is rolled once per team. The teams order is revealed and players take their turns alternating teams according to the predetermined order.

The next round each team can chose a different order.
That's exactly what we do. Do you chose the team order in secret like we do?

Yes. It is not revealed until after the initiative roll.

[bobofett]

It may take longer but by much. so i chose alternating teams.

[Teamski]

From the very beginning of playing back in 2004, I invariably play that everybody rolls initiative. Whoever rolls high starts with play going to the left. This always evens out the game play over the long run. I tried the original high-low order, but it was just too confusing. I also tried high roller's team goes first, but this created some lopsided games.

-Ski

[Aranas]

From the very beginning of playing back in 2004, I invariably play that everybody rolls initiative. Whoever rolls high starts with play going to the left. This always evens out the game play over the long run. I tried the original high-low order, but it was just too confusing. I also tried high roller's team goes first, but this created some lopsided games.
-Ski

In a 3 Vs 3 don't you find it imbalanced? Three players from the same team one after the other?

[Teamski]

From the very beginning of playing back in 2004, I invariably play that everybody rolls initiative. Whoever rolls high starts with play going to the left. This always evens out the game play over the long run. I tried the original high-low order, but it was just too confusing. I also tried high roller's team goes first, but this created some lopsided games.
-Ski

In a 3 Vs 3 don't you find it imbalanced? Three players from the same team one after the other?

No. Whoever rolls high goes first, play goes to the physical left, even if it is an opponent. Throughout the game, different people will win iniative, and the play evens out.

Example: You are left player of your team. You roll high. You go first and play then goes to the opponent to your left.

-Ski

[Jormi_Boced]

I do neither as well. We go from high to low init.

[mathguy]

We often played large team games, 3 v 3 or 4 v 4. We always alternate teams. We tried a couple of different methods.

We never did the official "play passes to the left" method because if often is no fun going before or after the same person all the time. (An analogy is playing a card game: if you sit to the left of the best player you often get it the worst. Like Hearts.)

We tried the high roll to low roll method, interleaving the team-members. This is actually not that confusing because we use chess pieces to keep track of the turn order. One team gets the white pieces and the other team gets the black pieces. After the initiative rolls, we give each player their corresponding chess piece. For example, the turn order might be black-king, white-king, black-queen, white-queen, black-rook, white-rook, black-pawn, white-pawn.

But this sort of eliminated certain kinds of strategies that could only happen if you could determine the order within a team. For example, you want the team member with the AE just dropped to go first, you want Taelord to move before the snipers, etc. So as some other people already mentioned, one way to play is to have each team decide their order, and then roll initiative once for each team only and then interleave the orders. Again, we use chess pieces for each team. So each team places their chess pieces, in secret if so desired, before the initiative roll. We find that this kind of game is the best because it allows for more strategy.

In a free-for-all game. we use chess pieces to keep track of the initiative rolls too.

[happyjosiah]

It doesn't seem to matter too much either way. I have done both. Generally I go with teams next to each other simply because maps are often built with one team on each side.

[Malechi]

This is an interesting question, I have written Hasbro the following email question:



Hasbro Answer Team,

My question concerns the order of play in a team game. It appears by the rules (see following transcriptions) that all members of one team may go before the second team has a chance to play. Is this correct?

From the rulebook page 7 -
Chapter: "Get Ready to Play"
Section: 1. "Set Up your Battlefield"
Sub-Section: "Team seating and play"
• If you're playing a team game, teammates should sit next to eachother on one side of the table, facing their opponents.

From the rulebook page 9 -
Chapter: "The Battle Begins!"
Section: 2. "Roll For Initiative"
• Now all players roll the 20-sided die. The highest roller takes the first turn, then play passes to the left.

This implies passing it to your teammate(s) if they are indeed to your left. This appears to imbalance the game as your team may have the opportunity move two, or more, Army Card's figures if playing with multiple teams per side (easily done as I have 7 Master Sets and 3 or more of each expansion), before your opposing team may have a chance to move a single Army Card's figures.

Thank you,
Malechi





*** Note that the above Master Set and expansion numbers are true, but exagerrated also, as I have one of every item still sealed! :wink:

I await the "offcial" answer ...

[gorillanator]

We usually rotate with a member of each team going every turn.

Each team rolls a d20 and the high roller gets to go first but the teams pick who they want to go in what order.

[DarkSpade]

I've always played high rolls to low rolls


Does kind of suck when no one on your team rules a 2 diget number though. :)

[morgonis]

we have always used the high to low roll for init to, mainly because how bad it would suck to roll a 19 only to have the player to YOUR left roll a 20 and now your going last...doesnt seem fair, hence the one and only house rule we play with..high to low sets the order..

wait, i lied, we have 2 house rules,,,we let krug use bridges :)

[TheRealQ]

I may be oversimplifying but the way it is stated in the book seems fine to me. The first round is usually spent moving with no encounters. After the first round the players should take into consideration that they could lose initiative and play accordingly. Insightful planning can overcome the downfall of probability.

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

we have always used the high to low roll for init to, mainly because how bad it would suck to roll a 19 only to have the player to YOUR left roll a 20 and now your going last...doesnt seem fair, hence the one and only house rule we play with..high to low sets the order..

wait, i lied, we have 2 house rules,,,we let krug use bridges :)

Yep, same with us, high to low/first to last. It's fine with 4 player games, but I've tried playing like this with 8 and it's just confusing.

I have never done the rules book version.

[Malechi]

Once again, my question to Hasbro:



Hasbro Answer Team,

My question concerns the order of play in a team game. It appears by the rules (see following transcriptions) that all members of one team may go before the second team has a chance to play. Is this correct?

From the rulebook page 7 -
Chapter: "Get Ready to Play"
Section: 1. "Set Up your Battlefield"
Sub-Section: "Team seating and play"
• If you're playing a team game, teammates should sit next to eachother on one side of the table, facing their opponents.

From the rulebook page 9 -
Chapter: "The Battle Begins!"
Section: 2. "Roll For Initiative"
• Now all players roll the 20-sided die. The highest roller takes the first turn, then play passes to the left.

This implies passing it to your teammate(s) if they are indeed to your left. This appears to imbalance the game as your team may have the opportunity move two, or more, Army Card's figures if playing with multiple teams per side (easily done as I have 7 Master Sets and 3 or more of each expansion), before your opposing team may have a chance to move a single Army Card's figures.

Thank you,
Malechi



Here is the Official Answer from Hasbro:



Team Play; Order of

Discussion Thread Response (Chris)
05/30/2006 11:41 AM

Hi [Malechi],

Thank you for contacting Hasbro with your question on Heroscape! Perhaps I can help.

The rules are correct. Let me try to explain why.

Obviously team play implies that you can work with your teammates to reach your collective goals. This would be a bit difficult if you are sitting across the table from one another and your opponents could hear everything you say. Also, when you roll for initiative each round, there is no way to tell who will go first. For example. Players 1 & 2 are teammates, Players 3 & 4 are teammates and they are sitting around the table in numerical order. On round 1, player 1 wins initiative, so the turns go in numerical order, 1-2-3-4. But for round 2, player 3 wins initiative. Now for round 2, the turns go in the following order 3-4-1-2. So initiative plays just as big of a roll (if not slightly bigger) in team games than in normal games.

So you are correct, at certain points, 2 teammates will get to go before the other team, but then the other team gets to retaliate with a vengeance.

I'll certainly pass your comments that you think this specific rule is unbalanced when playing with multiple teams per side. We appreciate you bringing this to our attention as Heroscape is a constantly evolving game system.

I hope that answers your question(s). If there is anything else I can help you with, please visit www.hasbro.com or respond to this e-mail.

Product Level 1:*Games (NOT SOFTWARE)
Product Level 2:*Heroscape
Category Level 1:*Game Play
Date Created:*05/27/2006 12:40 AM
Last Updated:*05/30/2006 11:41 AM
Status:*Solved

Chris Dupuis
Hasbro Consumer Affairs

[Oogie_Da_Bruce]

players take their turns alternating teams according to the predetermined order.

We played this way over the weekend. And I got to say it was great.

I think this is the way team game initiative will ALWAYS be done in this way.

EDIT: interesting Hasbro response. But screw that... I'm playing the Augray way!!!!

[Malechi]

players take their turns alternating teams according to the predetermined order.

We played this way over the weekend. And I got to say it was great.

I think this is the way team game initiative will ALWAYS be done in this way.

EDIT: interesting Hasbro response. But screw that... I'm playing the Augray way!!!!

I must agree. There is something fundamentally wrong with the team play rules of Hasbro. In a 4x4 game it is possible for a team to play 9 Army Cards before the other team may even move from their starting zone! Can you say: "Bye, bye to any chance of getting the high ground!"

Example:
• Team Member 1: Roman Legionnaires (Army Card #1) bond activate Parmenio (Army Card #2)

• Team Member 2: Blade Gruts (Army Card #3) bond activate Grimnak (Army Card #4)

• Team Member 3: Armoc Vipers (Army Card #5) bond activate Venoc Warlord (Army Card #6)

• Team Member 4: Marro Drones (rolls 18 on the d20 to move and attack with 3 Army Card's worth of Marro Drones (#7, #8 & #9)

Okay-doke, your turn ...

[Aranas]

I do not care what Hasbro says, I will continue to play with alternate teams.

Melachi, you said 9 army cards. It can be worst than that. Imagine another 4x4. Team A: players 1 to 4, team B, players 5 to 8. First round, player 5 gets initiative so it goes 5-6-7-8-1-2-3-4. At the end of turn three, the last four to play would be ...1-2-3-4. Next round, player 1 gets initiative so it goes 1-2-3-4 again!!! Height times in a row for the same team!!! :shock:

Using your example above, this could mean (with luck) up to 18 moves and attack! Totally weird :passout:

[Augray]

I figured I'd comment here rather than the "Hasbro Question" thread.

Earlier in this dicussion I suggested a way to handle alternating teams that works well for us. That being said, I understand the designer's choice for team play.

The target audience has always been primarily 8-12 year old boys. The feeling you got from Craig and Rob in the .net days was they really wanted to keep Heroscape very accessible. The guiding principle for the rules was KISS. My guess is they predicted not a lot of kids would be playing 4 on 4 games. Teams would most likely be 2 on 2 or 1 on 2 like some of the official scenarios. The rules in the book are very easy to follow.

We usually play by the book rules in those cases anyway. The initiative usually evens out over the course of the game.

[Malechi]

I figured I'd comment here rather than the "Hasbro Question" thread.

That's why I posted the link on the "Hasbro Question" thread!

:wink:

... The feeling you got from Craig and Rob in the .net days was they really wanted to keep Heroscape very accessible. The guiding principle for the rules was KISS ...

... But, 18 moves and attacks!

BTW - I did send Chris back a reply to his response where I detailed the "18" example. I don't expect an answer, nor did I request one. It was purely an FYI email, just something to think about; some food for thought; a topic for the water cooler for Rob and Craig; just another dumb email to trash, whatever ...

[Aranas]

... The feeling you got from Craig and Rob in the .net days was they really wanted to keep Heroscape very accessible. The guiding principle for the rules was KISS ...

... But, 18 moves and attacks!

BTW - I did send Chris back a reply to his response where I detailed the "18" example. I don't expect an answer, nor did I request one. It was purely an FYI email, just something to think about; some food for thought; a topic for the water cooler for Rob and Craig; just another dumb email to trash, whatever ...

OH! Great! Thank's Melachi.

[spacemonkeymafia]

I still favor the order of init (D&D style) with more than two players, whether it be teams or free for all. Its not that hard to remember and I'm so used to jotting down init scores that it isn't that time consuming. Realistically this works and it only needs documentation when +4 players are on the board.

I definitely don't agree with a 4x4 team where 4 players go then the other 4 players would go- which would eventually happen by order marker 2. It seems waaaaay too lopsided. I would so hate to go first in that situation, knowing that the next 4 turns are all the opponents team.

[daevablacc]

I've found that where Hasbro's default rules for teams break down the most is in games where each team member has a low number of points each. That way, if a team gets to go first with all of its members, the second team is too decimated to fight back by the time they get their turns.

[daevablacc]

I still favor the order of init (D&D style) with more than two players, whether it be teams or free for all. Its not that hard to remember and I'm so used to jotting down init scores that it isn't that time consuming. Realistically this works and it only needs documentation when +4 players are on the board.

I definitely don't agree with a 4x4 team where 4 players go then the other 4 players would go- which would eventually happen by order marker 2. It seems waaaaay too lopsided. I would so hate to go first in that situation, knowing that the next 4 turns are all the opponents team.
We used to play that way, but found that if all members of one team rolled higher than any of the other team's members everything went to **** in a heartbeat. Plus, we now like the strategy of determining which player will be going first for their team.

[spacemonkeymafia]

if all members of one team rolled higher than any of the other team's members everything went to **** in a heartbeat


I haven't played a game 4x4 and so I can't say what would happen when all four members of one team beat out the init but that situation is the exact same as the play passes left style. I would accept it a lot easier if every player on the opposing team beat all the players init on my team just because that situation wouldn't occur that often (unless the init glyph is taken- but that is strategy and not luck of the die). I am, however, starting to like the alternative to both separate init and play passes style. I will have to try it sometime.

[morgonis]

havent played teams eough to make a educated comment beyond the alternating sounds wise, we just did high to low init and it worked fine, but again havent played any huge 8-10 player games yet.

i prolly wouldnt go with picking your teams order though, would still go with highest on a team goes first, then the highest roll on the other team etc, adds in the "maybe that guys train of communication broke down a little" element...but there is something to be said for knowing who is moveing when of course, just the more options made to the players, the longer a turn/round takes..and if we talking 8 peeps + im guessing its already a pretty long game.

now i need to find more players to our group, 8 person map sounds fun :)

[Least]

The way we do it is everyone rolls for initiative. Then it is alternating between the two teams. For example, team 1 rolls a 19, 13, and 6. Team 2 rolls a 20, 12, and 4. Team 2 goes first, because the initiative was 20. Then the highest roll from team 1 goes (19) Then it goes back to the second highest on team 2, and back to team 1, and so on. The whole goes left dealie isn't that great when we aren't always sitting and staying in order.