Command Cards (An Alternative to Order Markers)

[jbbnbsmith]

When I first played Memoir 44 I thought that the command card system might be a good alternative to the order markers in Heroscape, but I never pursued it. Now that I've been playing Command & Colors:Ancients quite a bit, the thought has struck me even stronger than before.

With the help of several people on this site, Malechi and I have adapted the C&C:A style command cards to Heroscape. Basically, instead of using the order markers, you play a command card from your hand. The command card determines which units/figures may be activated, and the player chooses from all the possibilities which one(s) he will activate. Play then proceeds according to standard HS rules regarding movement, attack, special abilities (including bonding, frenzy etc). There are even defensive cards that may be played during an opponents turn!

The cards have been play tested and revised quite a bit now. I'd appreciate anyone's input who would be willing to give them a try.

The Command Cards are in the Downloads Section and may be downloaded by following this link:

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=31

http://www.heroscapers.com/downloads//comcardsample_272.gif

[LilNewbie]

I really like this idea. You could even state 1 squad may activate or 1 character may activate instead of doing points or terrain. You could even follow some of the card ideas from Columbia games Crusader Rex or Hammer of the Scotts that have a number (1,2 or 3) which represents how many different units can activate. That can be granulated to 1 squad or 1 hero, 2 squads or 2 heroes, 3 squads or 3 heroes and of course, 2s would be rarer than 1s and 3s would be rarer then 1s or 2s. Then the special cards would be cool. Each player would draw 4 cards at the start of each round and they can play 1 card each for 3 turns in initiative order. Any unused cards are discarded and then 4 more cards drawn,etc. You could even limit the game by only having a draw deck of 48 cards and when the draw deck is empty, game over. :D

Cool idea...now I have some stuff to ponder about making this work.

Newb.

[jbbnbsmith]

I finished a first pass at a deck of command cards and play tested them tonight a bit. The two armies were:

Sentinels x2 Arrow Gruts x 3
Sir Denrick Krug
Knights x 2 Minions x 1
4th Mass x 2 Anubian Wolves x 2
Marrden hounds x1

The game flowed very well with the cards. And it was a very balanced match-up too. It ended in a protracted slug-fest with two Sentinels vs two Minions on the side of the map, and the knights and orcs in the center fighting for high ground. The last minion managed to kill the last sentinel and the last two arrow gruts took out the last knight.

I have a few things I'll probably change, and as always I would love to get some feedback from any interested parties. I've attached a powerpoint file that contains the deck (four pages, no backs and no art - just the basics for play-testing). I just printed these out on normal paper and cut them out. It was good enough for testing. Give them a try, let me know how they work, what wording needs to be modified, what problems arose, the balance/ratios of the various cards, and ideas for other types of cards. (see first post of this thread for latest version of cards)

[LilNewbie]

Awesome, I'll get them printed up and tried out!

Newb.

[Kenntak]

Sounds like a very interesting idea. Some players that I played Heroscape with are not that keen on the order markers, so this presents an interesting alternative.

[jbbnbsmith]

Yeah, I've had a love/hate relationship with the turn markers from day one. On the one hand they do cause players to make interesting choices, but at the same time they seem to limit the flow of the battles a bit.

I've made several attempts at custom rules to improve upon the turn markers, but my attempts either ended up unbalancing the game or made things too complicated.

I think the command cards may just do the trick. They really no not add any additional complexity, and require little additional explaination beyond the text on the cards themselves. They add more decisions to the game, and that's always a good thing to me. Of course, I only have one test game under my belt, but so far so good!

[jbbnbsmith]

Here is version 2 of the cards. I modified the deck a little bit, added a few new card types, and changed some of the language to better reflect the verbage used in the official rules. I also am presenting them as a pdf file rather than powerpoint (which should make it much more accesible to everyone).

Just a few notes on how to use the cards. Shuffle the deck and deal each player 5 cards. If you want more of a challenge you can take fewer cards. Roll initiative to determine who goes first. that is the only initiative roll made. (For multiplayer games you may want to roll initiative each round or every few rounds). Players then alternate playing one card each round. the cards allow the player to activate cards/figures or take special actions. Note that on a given round, the same figure may not activate twice (except in the case of special abilities). This means the card that says "Activate two army cards" may not be used to take two turns with Charos, or move and attack with the same three minion twice. Also, any bonded heroes may only activate once as well. So, if you play the card "Activate Three Common Squads", you could not activate 9 arrow gruts and then take three turns with Krug.

So far the only figure that is hurt by all these changes is Dund. I've been thinking about this as a possible remedy. When Dund paralyzes a unit, place two pennies or other markers on the corresponding card. That card may not be activated for two rounds (remove a penny each round as a reminder). I think this still gives Dund the same power and point value without any drastic change to how he is played.

If any of you has the interest to give this system a shot I'd love to hear from you. If not, I certainly understand!

EDIT: When I tested the download just down, simply clicking on "download" didn't work. I had to right click on "download" and select "save target as". Then it opened okay. Not sure what the problem is there.

[netherspirit]

If you edit your first post and attach this file to it, it will show up in the download section of the site.

[jbbnbsmith]

If you edit your first post and attach this file to it, it will show up in the download section of the site.
Will do. Thanks.

[Sapper]

jbbnbsmith,

I have M44 and like the card system. I printed out the cards and will give them a shot. I will let you know how they work for us.

[Kenntak]

Nice work. I wonder if you should place a cap on figures you can activate like CC:A places a command card cap on the amount of some units you can move or affect. For example, with activate 150, you could activate 15 Blade Gruts anywhere on the board.

[jbbnbsmith]

Nice work. I wonder if you should place a cap on figures you can activate like CC:A places a command card cap on the amount of some units you can move or affect. For example, with activate 150, you could activate 15 Blade Gruts anywhere on the board.
The point values cards are the ones I'm most concerned with. My intention for including them was to allow players the option to activate figures from different army cards during their turn for extra flexability. But at the same time I don't want to have any cards that are "gamebreakers". I originally had point cards as high as 250! That was WAY too much for one turn if using low cost figures. So far I've found 150 to be fairly reasonable. Although it could be used to activate a whole lot of low cost figures as in your example, there are several checks/balances in place. First, there are only three (I think) 150 point cards in the deck, so the probability of drawing it is not too high. The "First Strike" card would be a nightmare if played against the orcs in the situation you described, so there is always an element of risk. And your opponent could immediately play a "counter attack card" or even another 150 point card. Now should it be 140 or 130 instead of 150? I'm not sure. Same with the other point cards which are currently 50, 75, 100, and 150. So your point is well taken.

What I haven't done yet is to evaluate all of the command cards based upon all of the existing figures to see if there are any conbinations that are just too powerful. Maintaining the wonderful balance of the game is my main concern. Perhaps 15 orcs is too much for one round. When I play tested with the arrow gruts 150 didn't seem too outrageous, but I only had three squads at the time. (I also had Krug, and the first time I allowed him three turns, one for each arrow grut squad. That was excessive! So I decided only one activation per figure per round, not including special abilities like frenzy)

The other cards that could be equally as powerful (or more so) are "Hero Charge" and "Line Advance". In my one test battle (I probably won't have a chance to play again this weekend and it's killing me!) I didn't draw these cards until near the end of the battle so I didn't experience their full potential. I also sort of guessed at some of the restrictions on several cards like "normal attack only" or "no d20 abilities". But that's what playtesting is for anyway, right?

Thanks a lot for your feedback. I'd love to hear more, especially if you actually play a game or two using the deck. I really think we could be on to something very cool here!

[Malechi]

I really think we could be on to something very cool here!

Although I am a big proponent of Order Markers, I to thought this idea is very worthwhile. I set up some art based cards of your text only cards ...

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h44/Malechi_HeroScape/command_cards.jpg

Like the Quests of HeroScape cards, these are set up CCG sized for easy placement into card sleeves. The two outer images are the card faces with the card back in the center. I wanted to keep a HeroScape feel to the images, so I used the "paper" image from Thormun's Journal to "write" the Command Orders on and even used the Thormun's Journal font for the rule quantifiers at the bottom of the cards when required. I did make minor change to some text. Such as changing card to Army Card and the like, giving it a HeroScape terminology upgrade. Let me know if there is any interest.

[LilNewbie]

Great looking card samples, Malechi!

Newb.

[jbbnbsmith]

I really think we could be on to something very cool here!

Although I am a big proponent of Order Markers, I to thought this idea is very worthwhile. I set up some art based cards of your text only cards ...

Like the Quests of HeroScape cards, these are set up CCG sized for easy placement into card sleeves. The two outer images are the card faces with the card back in the center. I wanted to keep a HeroScape feel to the images, so I used the "paper" image from Thormun's Journal to "write" the Command Orders on and even used the Thormun's Journal font for the rule quantifiers at the bottom of the cards when required. I did make minor change to some text. Such as changing card to Army Card and the like, giving it a HeroScape terminology upgrade. Let me know if there is any interest.

Wow, that looks great! I don't know if anyone else is interested but I sure am!

I've had a chance to do some more test playing and have made a few modifications that I think are strong and needed improvements. I will post a new pdf file tomorrow, but here are the basics of the changes and the reasons for them.

First off, while I love the flexibility of the point value cards, I wasn't sure if I had chosen the right values. I analyzed the squad cards and found that the per figure point cost ranges from 10 to 40, with an average and a median of around 22. As Kenntak had pointed out, allowing 15 orcs to activate is probably a bit excessive, and after a second look I agree. I have therefore changed the point value cards from 50, 75, 100, and to 50, 70, 90, and 120.

I decided to get rid of the "Special Attack" card which allowed two units having a special attack to be activated. I didn't realize that there were so few army cards with special attacks! In it's place I think I will use a "Covering Fire" card that will allow you to activate one ranged unit and one melee unit. I like this because provides for a natural tactic that is currently not possible.

I changed the "Charge" card such that you may activate any two army cards, not just melee cards, and move double. Attacks are at -1 die and any d20 rolls are at -1

In the same way "Double Time" now allows any 1 card to move double. And there are no restrictions regarding special abilities.

I changed "Clash of Steel" to "Heat of Battle" and now allow all engaged units to attack with +1 die (not just melee units)

And lastly, I need to rework "Advance Line" and "Hero Charge". The idea was to use these cards to encourage the formation of battle lines. But early in the game there tends to be too many adjacent units, and near the end their are too few. I will probably modify these such that figures with LOS to one another, up to some maximum number of figs, may activate. I'm still chewing on this one.

Although those may seem like a lot of changes, the truth is that the card system is working out really well. I know most people love the turn markers, and I'm certainly saying the game is broken, but I think the cards provide a great alternative in that it allows for some greater command flexibility and decision making.

Anyway, I'll post the updates tomorrow. Once the cards are set in terms of function, we can deal with specific language, nifty card titles, and the look and feel. As always, the input of the community is requested and welcomed.

And once again Malechi, the samples you posted look fantastic! I found site that sells perforated sheets of playing cards for use in printers. They also sell plastic spray coating that can create playing cards very close to store-bought. Has anyone every tried this approach to making custom cards?

[Kenntak]

I really like what you are doing, however, there is one thing missing. Location on the battlefield is so crucial to Commands & Colors and Memoir '44, but has not been implemented in the above cards. For example, section cards allow you to plan your attack and defense points. Sometimes, poor card management can result in the lack of an ability to attack or defend sufficiently in one section. In contrast, with the above cards, a player can bunch all of his/her Heroscape units in one area knowing that no matter what, he/she will be able to activate figures or cards.

I understand the difficulties this presents in Heroscape, where the map is not divided into sections. I do not know a good solution, although I think a compromise on this matter can be achieved. Maybe glyphs can be used to represent section points, e.g., one section consists of all hexes within 10 hexes of a glyph. I doubt players would want to separate the map into sections by using different types of hexes (rock, sand, etc.). Besides, this does not allow for section overlap. Another idea is to stretch pieces of string over the map in order to divide it into sections. Finally, another solution is to use LandSCAPE to print a map and then color in the various sections with markers or colored pencils and then hand out these maps to each player. This allows you to use irregularly shaped areas as a separate section.

[Malechi]

Kenntak - I understand your desire to maintain the originating idea for the cards into the HeroScape take on it. However, coming from the point of view of never playing the other Command card based games, I read that paragraph of yours and was turned off from using the cards.

It took the cards from "Put down the Order Markers and pick up the cards." to a complicated heavy set up of "Redo any battlefield you wish to play on in LANDscape, mathematically divide the battlefield, place the Glyphs that don't work as Glyphs and then finally you can put down the Order Markers and pick up the cards. But don't forget to count 10 spaces from every Glyph before you play a card." I wouldn't even take the time to print the cards to determine the difficulty of the set up procedure.

It appears that your only arguement for this addition is that bunching your figures allows for better use of the cards. There is a built in deterent for that ... explosive attacks.

[Kenntak]

I never said I was a game designer and I mentioned that I do not have a good solution to this. I think you have to play Commands and Colors to see how important having separate sections is.

As for bunching the units, I did not necessarily mean they have to be adjacent to each other. I meant you could group all of your units on one location of the map without fear that you would suffer command problems. In Commands and Colors if you did that you risk not being able to move any units, or being able to move only a minimal amount.

Maybe I am trying to capture too much of the Commands and Colors features using the cards. Just trying to make some suggestions for all to consider.

[Malechi]

My apologies if I came across as harsh, it was not my intention.

I admit complete ignorance of the rules and their nuances when it comes to both "Commands and Colors: Ancients" and "Memoir '44". I am confused why separate sections are required as I do not understand the point of doing so, but as you said I must play C&C/M44 to understand the importance.

I like the idea of jbbnbsmith's Command cards as they may get the "Order Markers? Never use 'em." people to quit playing "Checkers" and actually play "HeroScape" for once! And, for the majority of us that do use Order Markers, it offers an opportunity as a fun change of pace. I would just prefer to not see this HeroScape modification go from something that appears to be simple, clear and fun to an uber-technical, rules heavy version.

[Kenntak]

Malechi, I understand the good points you made. I agree that adding too much complexity could defeat the purpose of the modification.

In Commands and Colors: Ancients and Memoir '44, the sections represent the left, center and right flank. Units can move from section to section, but making such moves may result in reduced efficiency and loss of tempo.

[jbbnbsmith]

Kenntak,

I hear you regarding the map sections, and yes that IS a key part of the C&C game system. I too thought for quite a while how to directly transfer that aspect to heroscape, but I could not come up with a method that seemed practical given several factors: First, most maps are fairly irregular in shape, certainly not the standard rectangle found in C&C games. Second, C&C is a two player (or two team) game, whereas many people play HS with multiple independent players. So this would further complicate how to define sections. Third, the scale is much different in HS versus C&C. Also in C&C a unit maintains its same strength even after losses.

Now if someone wanted to simply build a map of similar dimensions as the C&C maps, they could play HS with the C&C:A cards almost directly (maybe change light, medium, heavy to point value ranges, and mounted becomes flying). That could make for a great game, but there would be some issues regarding adjacency (trees and such make it impossible to trule maintain battle lines), and other things that would likely crop up.

My intention was to create an alternative to the order markers since there has been a long standing debate (by some) on their strengths and weaknesses. Since I LOVE the C&C system, I thought it would provide a good framework for a card driven ordering system. I had a few objectives in mind. One was to encourage players to utilize as much of their forces as possible and to think in terms of battle lines rather than simply sending out one army at a time (I know that good players accomplish this with the turn markers, but I have played too many games where someone just kept putting three turn markers on one hero until he dies, and then they play with another). The second was to introduce an additional management/decision element to the game by limiting players to the cards in their hands. The third was to allow a bit more flexibility by allowing the activation of figures from different cards, or multiple cards. Fourth to provide some strategic/tactical uncertainty as in the First Strike Cards and the Hold the Line Cards which give the defending player the upper hand. And finally I wanted to keep it simple and still preserve the feel of Heroscape. I didn't want to invent a new game, or overcomplicate what is already a great game, but simply provide another approach for how units are activated.

I'm certainly open to suggestions as to how to handle the section aspect of C&C, but I fear, as Malechi pointed out, it may turn off some people. The cards as they are now do not require any familiarity with C&C, and I think the game still feels like Heroscape, just without turn markers.

Anyway, all feedback is good to hear, and I certainly hope that this post doesn't come off sounding defensive. (as in "this guy asks for feedback and then if someone disagrees with him he jumps all over them.") That's not my intention at all! So thanks Kenntak for your input, and if you come up with a good way to handle the sections I'm all ears. And if you have an opportunity to play test the cards that would be great!!

[Kenntak]

jbbnbsmith, your explanation was excellent. I just wanted to exhaust all avenues for the section commands to see whether it could feasibly be done. At this point, I cannot think of an easy way of doing that.

I am glad you brought up the point about putting all of the order markers one one card until the figure dies, then switch to another card. I recently played a game with a well-known Heroscape player and we discussed this precise issue. To some, this occurs too often and is a turn off. Some games almost become like tag team wrestling matches with each unit fighting one on one until it dies. I like the fact that you are trying to rectify an issue which is a turn off for some.

[Malechi]

Some thoughts on how the cards work (this may be how you intended the cards to work all along and I just read it differently):

• Each player is dealt 5 Command cards* per Round from the Command card Draw pile. A Round is made up of three Turns. Each player rolls the 20-sided die at the beginning of each Round for Initiative. A single Command card is played by each player, in order of initiative, each Turn. At the end of three Turns the Round is over and all used and unused Command cards are placed in the Discard pile. When the "Fate" Command card is used/unused at the end of a Round it is turned face up and both the Draw and Discard piles are shuffled into a new Draw pile.

* As an alternative players may receive more or fewer cards based on the specific Scenario and/or to even the play level of experienced/inexperienced players. Thus giving the inexperienced player more available options from which to choose.



Thoughts on alternate cards:

• Terrain activated cards Activate 1 Squad Card on a Grass Space, Activate 1 Hero on a Lava Space, and so on.

•*General Activated cards, as above but Valkyrie General specific.

• Do the same with Race, Class and Personalities. I.E. Activate 2 Army Cards of the Same Race. These should, I believe, stick to generic not specific traits as you would not want Activate all Hivelords as it is much to specific and would only affect 1 card (currently). Although Human, Soldier, Marro items where there can be multiples of on the field may make for an interesting card or two.

These Command cards could be done at a later time, much like the Quests of HeroScape expansion cards (and yes, QoH: Thaelenk Tundra will be arriving soon!), depending on how the original cards are received.

[EDIT: Corrected Turn and Round Terminology]

[Kenntak]

Malechi, I see that the players receive a whole new hand each turn. I sort of like the ability to keep the same set of cards which would allow you to hold back a good card until near the end of the game. I know in CC:A and Memoir '44, you keep the same hand the whole game, generally only playing one card and drawing one card each turn.

[Malechi]

Malechi, I see that the players receive a whole new hand each turn. I sort of like the ability to keep the same set of cards which would allow you to hold back a good card until near the end of the game. I know in CC:A and Memoir '44, you keep the same hand the whole game, generally only playing one card and drawing one card each turn.

Ah, I see what you mean. This would allow for a more strategic planning of future tactics, I like it.

A way of keeping the Rounds/Turns of HeroScape without losing the aforementioned planning ability is to hybrid the two.

• Each player starts the Round with 5 (again this may be modified) Command cards from the Draw pile. A Round is made up of three Turns. Each player rolls the 20-sided die at the beginning of each Round for Initiative. A single Command card is played by each player, in order of initiative, each Turn. The players then play 3 Turns/1 Command card each player for each Turn. At the end of the Round, each player draws 3 new Command cards and Initiative is rolled for once again.

In this way, the Rounds are kept in the game so Round specific Scenarios do not require reworking and the Glyph of Dagmar still has a purpose! It also forces players to choose their actions wisely as their options run less and less as the Round progresses into the second and third Turns, yet allows them to hold back Command cards until they are more useful.

[EDIT: Corrected Turn and Round Terminology]

[netherspirit]

Why are you switching round and turn? I think that would confuse people, mostly because I am confused...

[Malechi]

Why are you switching round and turn? I think that would confuse people, mostly because I am confused...

Sorry, I have always inverted Turns/Rounds since the old 'white box' D&D game! I can never remember which trumps which. I have gone back and corrected the terms to their correct placement.

:oops:

[netherspirit]

Oh okay, a mix-up. That makes much more sense now :)

[Malechi]

Oh okay, a mix-up. That makes much more sense now :)

You're always ruining my fun!

:evil:

Now I won't be able to confuse everybody else with my own personal Round/Turn dyslexia!

:twisted:

[netherspirit]

You sir, are not allowed to have fun! :twisted:

:buttkick:

[allskulls]

I like this idea a lot! And the cards you made, Malechi, look great so far. I also like the expansion idea of terain, general, etc. specific cards.

How about another expansion of Mission cards (Risk)? I used this idea in Heroclix and it worked great. Each player gets a secret mission that, upon completion, grants some kind of bonus to the player's team (mainly bonus points for upgrading...I was running a campaign). This can be applied to Heroscape with the completion of a mission meaning an automatic win or even an in-game bonus like reinforcements or an additional turn marker (or usable command card) for rest of battle.

If this is interesting to you guys, I will be willing to come up with some secret missions (have some that may carry over well from Heroclix). I know others here can come up with some too. A quick example is: Secret Mission - "Take Down The Powerhouse" Defeat the Hero with the highest point cost (must use a lower point unit to fulfill this mission). Gain confidence - Place a marker on the army card that defeated the Powerhouse. The unit recieves +1Att & +1Def and Frenzy for rest of battle.

I know there are some similar cards like this out there (and maybe could be incorporated), just thought I'd share my take on it. :D

[jbbnbsmith]

Lots of good discussion since this morning. I like the different ways of using the cards that have been discussed. My original thought was simply this:

Each player gets a certain amount of cards (4 or 5 - I've tried both and am leaning toward 4.) Roll d20 to see who goes first. Then players simply alternate playing a card and drawing a new one.

However, I like the idea of the command cards matching the 3 rounds per turn of the official HS rules. So perhaps the best method is as Malechi suggested: Each turn, players draw 5 new cards. Roll initiative and play one card per round for three rounds. Discard any unused cards. The thing I need to test using this method is what if you only have "defensive" type cards and can't play a card on your round. Perhaps the defensive type cards should allow the player to draw one new card. One thing I really want to avoid is players getting frustrated that there's NOTHING they can do given the cards in their hand. That may simulate chain of command in large scale battles, but I think an orc getting shot at would at least find something to do.

I had thought about activating figures based on different terrain, but given the wide range of diversity in maps, I wasn't sure how this would work. I like the idea of activations based on races or attributes, but this may be difficult to keep up with as new expansions keep coming out.

Great discussion!

[jbbnbsmith]

The newest version (version 3) of the cards has been posted.

(SEE THE FIRST POST OF THIS THREAD).

I had finished these before I saw the latest discussion here and so they do not reflect any new additions, only refinements based upon my play testing. For now, I have stated that play simply alternates between players, with a new card being drawn after each card is played. In this way players may choose to hold on to a certain card to use at the most effective moment. As a check to this, I've included a card that orders 1 Army Card but also calls for players to discard their entire hands, reshuffle the entire deck, and deal new hands.

The proof is in the playing, so even if you are only able to play a few turns solitaire, I am eagerly awaiting feedback from actual use of the cards.

EDIT: Here's the new version so you don't have to go back to page 1.

[netherspirit]

I don't like the idea of getting rid of all the cards at the end of the round. I do however like the idea of not drawing new cards until the end of the round. That way you can keep 2 cards to use at a later time..

Perhaps there should be an option to discard a card that you can't use? Like if you draw an Orc card but have no orcs? Maybe you can discard it at the end of the round?

[Runehardt]

I set up some art based cards of your text only cards ...

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h44/Malechi_HeroScape/command_cards.jpg

Like the Quests of HeroScape cards, these are set up CCG sized for easy placement into card sleeves. The two outer images are the card faces with the card back in the center. I wanted to keep a HeroScape feel to the images, so I used the "paper" image from Thormun's Journal to "write" the Command Orders on and even used the Thormun's Journal font for the rule quantifiers at the bottom of the cards when required. I did make minor change to some text. Such as changing card to Army Card and the like, giving it a HeroScape terminology upgrade. Let me know if there is any interest.
Very cool! I like 'em! If you make them I'll print them and try them as an alternative. It would be cool if you made the backs the same but maybe change up the color of the paper on some of the text sides or added some burn marks on some or maybe some arrows stuck in them or...

[jbbnbsmith]

I don't like the idea of getting rid of all the cards at the end of the round. I do however like the idea of not drawing new cards until the end of the round. That way you can keep 2 cards to use at a later time..
Ooo...I like that. A good compromise between a pure 3 rounds per turn and simply alternating playing cards.

Perhaps there should be an option to discard a card that you can't use? Like if you draw an Orc card but have no orcs? Maybe you can discard it at the end of the round? The way the "rules" are now, if you cannot play a card, you may discard your entire hand and draw the same number of new cards as you previously held. That way it may cost you some good card you cannot play at the moment (like Open Fire) to obtain a card you can play now. The player should also have the option of "wasting" a card (playing an unplayable card) and missing a round as well.

Just so you know, at present there are very few cards that could be "unusable". Most cards that provide some significant benefit (e.g. Tail Wind) may also be used to simply order 1 Card.

[netherspirit]

Perhaps there should be an option to discard a card that you can't use? Like if you draw an Orc card but have no orcs? Maybe you can discard it at the end of the round? The way the "rules" are now, if you cannot play a card, you may discard your entire hand and draw the same number of new cards as you previously held. That way it may cost you some good card you cannot play at the moment (like Open Fire) to obtain a card you can play now. The player should also have the option of "wasting" a card (playing an unplayable card) and missing a round as well.

Just so you know, at present there are very few cards that could be "unusable". Most cards that provide some significant benefit (e.g. Tail Wind) may also be used to simply order 1 Card.

I guess it would help if I actually read the rules all the way through :)

[Kenntak]

I'd rather not have the option to discard the entire hand. There should not be hands that are useless. Besides, one draws three new cards at the end of the round anyway.

One reason I do not like discarding cards is that I like forming in my mind what the opponent might have in his hand based upon what has been played so far. I think cards should only be played in order to get them out of your hand.

[BloodyJack]

So far am _loving_ the idea. I do want to heartily second the earlier poster's suggestion for terrain based cards. Something along the lines of:

-Camoflauge: Activate any non engaged unit currently on a grass hex. If that unit melee attacks this round, no defense dice may be rolled. If that unit range attacks, they roll +1 attack dice.

-Solid footing: Activate any two units currently standing on a rock hex. They both get +3 movement for this turn.

-Sand in the eyes: Activate any units currently standing on a sand tile. If any are engaged, they may break engagement with no penalty.

You get the idea. Notice that any grass based activations should be limited to one or two units at most, due to the predominance of grass tiles in the game. Rock should get no more than three I think, and sand being so rare, there really should not be an upper limit I think.

Also, what about the idea of response cards? Something along the lines of:

-Snowblind: Play this card when attacked by a unit currently standing on a snow hex. That units attack dice are reduced by half rounded up.

-Ill footing: Play this card on a unit just activated currently standing on sand. That units movement is reduced by half rounded up.

What do you think, not rying to hijack your idea, am just excited about the prospects....

[Malechi]

Perhaps the Terrain, General, Traits, etc., Command cards I suggested as an expansion could be used as an "optional cards" expansion to add to the Draw pile when you build some Terrain specific maps, draft by General (okay, so that one may be a little difficult given some General's lack of Army Cards), etc. Once the initial deck is devised we can come back to this.

My secondary suggested play technique based on Kenntak's comment to my first suggestion was exactly as Nether described above:



• Each player starts the Round with 5 (again this may be modified) Command cards from the Draw pile. A Round is made up of three Turns. Each player rolls the 20-sided die at the beginning of each Round for Initiative. A single Command card is played by each player, in order of initiative, each Turn. The players then play 3 Turns/1 Command card each player for each Turn. At the end of the Round, each player draws 3 new Command cards and Initiative is rolled for once again.



I think this works well as there are at least some Initiative rolls rather than only a single one per game.

>>> The lack of Initiative rolls does break another Army Card. The Airborne Elite. I am not sure what to do about this.

I like 5 cards in the hand as opposed to fewer cards. This provides options to the players. It also is better to reduce the options for experienced players rather than increase the non-proficient players cards as most will not have the aptitude for deciding the correct cards to utilize. Giving them more cards would seem to be detrimental to them!

[bobofett]

This is a very cool way to play. Unfortunatly i didn't read on so i have the v1 cards. i started with 2 double activate cards and a charge. my opponent had 2 first strikes and an activate 1 card. i won in 2 rounds. (the first strikes aren't that useful)
My army-
parmenio
legons
greeks
marcus
roman archers.

Opponent's army-
finn
thorgrim
denrick
vikings
knights

[BloodyJack]

Perhaps the Terrain, General, Traits, etc., Command cards I suggested as an expansion could be used as an "optional cards" expansion to add to the Draw pile when you build some Terrain specific maps, draft by General (okay, so that one may be a little difficult given some General's lack of Army Cards), etc. Once the initial deck is devised we can come back to this.


I think this could be avoided: make every terrain based command card activate a minimum of two units. Next simply state that any card can be used to activate a single unit anywhere if you do not want to use the stated ability. This avoids having to "build" a deck, as well as avoids the obvious strangeness of a unit being attacked repeatedly but unable to attack back due to the lack of cards to do so.

[jbbnbsmith]

I play tested again last night. I haven't read through all of the posts since yesterday afternoon, so some of this may have already been discussed (I did notice Malechi's comment regarding the AE and totally agree with his conclusion)

Based on all the good discussion from yesterday I have pretty much settled on is this procedure for playing with the cards:

At the beginning of each round, all players draw cards to bring their hand to a total of 5 cards. Initiative is rolled, and players take their turn in the order given by the initiative roll. During a player's turn he/she must play 1 card from his/her hand. Play continues for three turns. At the beginning of the next round, players replenish their cards to 5 and initiative is rolled. (This is also where players would roll for the AE). If a player plays a card during his opponents turn (First Strike, Hold The Line, Return Fire, etc), you may draw a replacement card immediately.


Now here's what I'm still working out. I played a 700 pt game last night. Once during the game there was a time when one player had no cards to play. In the C&C system the player would be forced to play a useless card, essentially take no turn, and draw another card. I don't like this for HS because if a player has no card to play in the first round of a turn, he could possible miss out on an entire turn, that is three rounds. That would tick me off! So one solution which I have currently been using is that a player has the option of either playing one card and taking no action, or discarding his entire hand and drawing the same number of cards from the deck. So if at the beginning of round two he only had four cards , he would only draw four new cards, not five. Another solution is to modify the few cards that could cause this situation such that they could be used to order one card. At this point I prefer the former approach.

As for the cards themselves, I feel like I am very close to the final form. There were only a few that needed a bit of tweaking. One was Tail Wind. This card orders two Flying units, allows them to move two extra hexes, and gives them a +1 Attack Die for normal attacks. This was just too much in the play testing, especially with the minions. Two squads of minions coming at you, with a move of six, flying to take high ground, and then attacking with 4 dice, all hits counting as two hits, was a game breaker. So I am removing the +1 Attack Die.

The second card change is Heroic Leadership, which was a new card. This card allows a player to activate one Hero card, and up to three other cards providing each figure has a clear LOS to the Hero. Again, this was a bit much. I have modified the card such that the figures must be within 6 hexes of the Hero and have a clear LOS to the hero.

The third card is Move Fire Move. I will simply add that if you have no units witha range greater than 1, you may order any one Army Card.

I will probably add a statement saying "after playing this card, immediately draw a new card from the deck" for the cards "First Strike", "Hold the Line", "Return Fire", and "Fate".

So far I am really enjoying the game play using the cards. Here's what I have found:

1. The cards both limit your options and increase your options. Sometimes they limit you in that you have to order a squad instead of the hero who's in trouble. But they also increase your options by allowing you to order multiple cards, or activate figures from different cards.

2. They allow you to coordinate attacks a little better than the turn markers. By seeing the cards you have at the beginning of each turn, you can plan out the order in which to use them and the armies you'll activate.

3. They provide more opportunity to adapt. When your opponent throws a wrench into your plan, you have the opportunity to try to make the best of it by altering your strategy. With turn markers once you place them, you live or die by your choices. For many that is what makes them appealing, but it can also be a bit frustrating.

4. The game has some interesting momentum and tempo swings with the cards. Being able to order three squads to the front lines, even though they will not attack that round, or being able to strike the first blow when the enemy charges into your line make for very interesting and heroic turns of events.

5. The cards add a bit more decision making to the game. Which card to play, which unit(s) to order, which figures to order, do I play that defensive card now or save it for a later attack.

Obviously I'm biased, but I'm also realistic. This is my fourth attempt at "improving" Heroscape and I have readily admitted that my first three attempts were dismal failures!

I will make a few modifications, read the posts I've not read yet, and put version four on the boards sometime today.

[jbbnbsmith]

This is a very cool way to play. Unfortunatly i didn't read on so i have the v1 cards. i started with 2 double activate cards and a charge. my opponent had 2 first strikes and an activate 1 card. i won in 2 rounds. (the first strikes aren't that useful)
My army-
parmenio
legons
greeks
marcus
roman archers.

Opponent's army-
finn
thorgrim
denrick
vikings
knights
The version one cards were posted with absolutely no play testing, and they were just awfully unbalanced, :oops: especially when playing with relatively small armies. I will put version four up today and would appreciate it if you'd be willing to have another shot at it. One thing I realize that I have not done is play test with smaller armies (500 or under), so your input using the armies you listed would be of great value.

I think the reason you may have found the first strike cards not to be useful is that they originally only allowed melee units to first strike. Now any unit that is newly engaged may attack before the enemy attacks. Hopefully you'll find this to be much more useful.

[jbbnbsmith]

I'd rather not have the option to discard the entire hand. There should not be hands that are useless. Besides, one draws three new cards at the end of the round anyway.

One reason I do not like discarding cards is that I like forming in my mind what the opponent might have in his hand based upon what has been played so far. I think cards should only be played in order to get them out of your hand.
At this point in time, the following cards are the only ones that could potentially be unplayable:

Return Fire (x2)
First Strike (x3)
Hold The line (x3)

These cards are all what I consider to be "defensive" cards, in that they may be played during an opponents turn

Heat Of Battle (x2) This is an offensive card that only allows activation of engaged figures. I could easily modify this that if no figures are engaged you may order one card of your choice. So this is now no longer unplayable.

and Fate (x1) (forces the re-roll of any Die or Dice roll).

So there are 9 out of 64 cards that could be unplayable. The defensive cards, including Fate, may be replaced immediately after being played, so there is a good chance of drawing a playable card.

If the idea of replacing your entire hand if no card is playable doesn't sit well, here is another thought. I can modify the wording of the defensive cards such that they may be played even if they provide no benefit. For example, the opponent moves but does not attack, and I play First Strike. The First Strike card does nothing, but I am able to draw a replacement card fom the deck. All players see what card was played (or non-played), and the player has essentially been forced to waste a card that may have been very useful later in the game.

Or if this is confusing, I could have the rules state that at the beginning of each round a player may discard one defensive card and draw a new card from the deck. The Defensive cards could be marked with a "D", and the rules may also state that Defensive cards are immediately replaced by drawing from the deck. Same end result, but now I don't have to add wording to the cards themselves.

How does that sound?

[jbbnbsmith]

>>> The lack of Initiative rolls does break another Army Card. The Airborne Elite. I am not sure what to do about this.

I like 5 cards in the hand as opposed to fewer cards. This provides options to the players. It also is better to reduce the options for experienced players rather than increase the non-proficient players cards as most will not have the aptitude for deciding the correct cards to utilize. Giving them more cards would seem to be detrimental to them!
You are absolutely right as I quickly discovered last night when I drafted the AE's. I have been using the three rounds to a turn then draw new cards procedure and it works very well. Not only does it fix the AE issue, but is also maintains a consistency with the rest of Heroscape rules.

[netherspirit]

jbbnbsmith you are mixing up turn and round just like Malechi did the other day.....

[jbbnbsmith]

jbbnbsmith you are mixing up turn and round just like Malechi did the other day.....
Sorry :oops:

So there are three turns in a round?
I'll get it right eventually!

[netherspirit]

jbbnbsmith you are mixing up turn and round just like Malechi did the other day.....
Sorry :oops:

So there are three turns in a round?
I'll get it right eventually!

;)

[Malechi]

I could have the rules state that at the beginning of each round a player may discard one defensive card and draw a new card from the deck. The Defensive cards could be marked with a "D", and the rules may also state that Defensive cards are immediately replaced by drawing from the deck. Same end result, but now I don't have to add wording to the cards themselves.

Something like this:

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h44/Malechi_HeroScape/defensive_card_sample.jpg

It would be cool if you made the backs the same but maybe change up the color of the paper on some of the text sides or added some burn marks on some or maybe some arrows stuck in them or...

Perhaps, but it would be way to much work to create 64 different "Paper" images for something that would be hardly noticed.


I have created all 64 current cards with all changes jbbnbsmith has requested in the PDFs and in this thread.

I have 'issues' with some text ...

1)
• Order 1 Squad Reshuffle
Activate any 1 Squad Card.
If you have no Squad figures, you may normally activate 1 Army Card of your choice.
All players discard and the entire deck is shuffled. Players receive new hands and play continues.

It seems a little much to discard all cards, even the ones you have been holding back for later use, unless that is the intention giving the deck a "Use it, or lose it" attitude. I think it would work better as:

• Order 1 Squad Reshuffle
Activate any 1 Squad Card.
If you have no Squad figures, you may normally activate 1 Army Card of your choice.
After playing this card, shuffle the deck and discard pile.


2)
All "alternative choice Army Card" cards were worded:
If you have no (specifier) figures, activate 1 Army Card of your choice.

I believe they should be worded:
If you have no (specifier) figures you may normally activate 1 Army Card of your choice.

Adding the term normally indicates any previous added abilities of the Command card are null and void and you are only able to normally activate 1 Army Card.


3)
Charge
Activate up to 3 Army Cards (including bonding). The figures may move double their normal movement points.
All attacks are made at –1Attack Die.
All d20 abilities are at -2.

The wording is slightly vague to the actual meaning (see the video Rules Lawyers Gone Wild), I would suggest:

Charge
Activate up to 3 Army Cards (includes bonded Army Cards). The figures may move double their normal move points.
All attacks are made at –1Attack Die.
All d20 abilities are at –2 to the Die roll.

4)
Fate
You may play this card immediately after any die or dice roll to force a re-roll. The new results are binding.
After playing this card, shuffle the deck and discard pile.

With the addition of the line "After playing this card, immediately draw a new card from the deck." you requested, it reads better as (and does not allow the player to pick up the Fate/Fate Reshuffle on the first draw.

Fate Reshuffle
You may play this card immediately after any die or dice roll to force a re-roll. The new results are binding.
After playing this card, immediately draw a new card from the deck.
After drawing a card, shuffle the deck and discard pile.


5)
One last thing I did was change the card titles from "Activate:" to "Order:" as in the PDF, however with all cards I continued to use the word "activate in the descriptions. It seemed to read soother using two different words rather than, at least in some cases, reading the same sentence twice.

• Order 1 Squad
Order any 1 Squad Card.
If you have no Squad figures, you may normally order 1 Army Card of your choice.

became:

• Order 1 Squad
Activate any 1 Squad Card.
If you have no Squad figures, you may normally activate 1 Army Card of your choice.

[jbbnbsmith]

[Something like this:

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h44/Malechi_HeroScape/defensive_card_sample.jpg
That's perfect!

I have 'issues' with some text ...

1)
• Order 1 Squad Reshuffle
Activate any 1 Squad Card.
If you have no Squad figures, you may normally activate 1 Army Card of your choice.
All players discard and the entire deck is shuffled. Players receive new hands and play continues.

It seems a little much to discard all cards, even the ones you have been holding back for later use, unless that is the intention giving the deck a "Use it, or lose it" attitude. I think it would work better as:

• Order 1 Squad Reshuffle
Activate any 1 Squad Card.
If you have no Squad figures, you may normally activate 1 Army Card of your choice.
After playing this card, shuffle the deck and discard pile.
Actually, my intention was the "use it or lose it" idea. But the card should explain that each player draws exactly the same amount of cards each had immediately after that card was played.

I'm not 100% sold on this one. It could providre an interesting twist, but it certainly isn't essential. We could just make it an "Order 1 Army Card" card and be done with it.


2)
All "alternative choice Army Card" cards were worded:
If you have no (specifier) figures, activate 1 Army Card of your choice.

I believe they should be worded:
If you have no (specifier) figures you may normally activate 1 Army Card of your choice.

Adding the term normally indicates any previous added abilities of the Command card are null and void and you are only able to normally activate 1 Army Card.
I agree. I think my first versions had that wording but I shortened it to fit everything on the card. That's not an issue with the larger format.


3)
Charge
Activate up to 3 Army Cards (including bonding). The figures may move double their normal movement points.
All attacks are made at –1Attack Die.
All d20 abilities are at -2.

The wording is slightly vague to the actual meaning (see the video Rules Lawyers Gone Wild), I would suggest:

Charge
Activate up to 3 Army Cards (includes bonded Army Cards). The figures may move double their normal move points.
All attacks are made at –1Attack Die.
All d20 abilities are at –2 to the Die roll.

4)
Fate
You may play this card immediately after any die or dice roll to force a re-roll. The new results are binding.
After playing this card, shuffle the deck and discard pile.

With the addition of the line "After playing this card, immediately draw a new card from the deck." you requested, it reads better as (and does not allow the player to pick up the Fate/Fate Reshuffle on the first draw.

Fate Reshuffle
You may play this card immediately after any die or dice roll to force a re-roll. The new results are binding.
After playing this card, immediately draw a new card from the deck.
After drawing a card, shuffle the deck and discard pile.

These are all good changes. With the -2 on the d20, do you think anyone will be confused by a -1 or a zero? In other words, someone activates the Wolves and rolls a natural 1, which is modified to a -1. I think one wolf should die. I also think one wolf should die if up to a 3 is rolled. But I don't want to start changing army cards. So is there a better way to explain the impact of the -2 modifier without getting too wordy? My intention is to add some disadvantage/risk to attacking with three armies.

5)
One last thing I did was change the card titles from "Activate:" to "Order:" as in the PDF, however with all cards I continued to use the word "activate in the descriptions. It seemed to read soother using two different words rather than, at least in some cases, reading the same sentence twice.

• Order 1 Squad
Order any 1 Squad Card.
If you have no Squad figures, you may normally order 1 Army Card of your choice.

became:

• Order 1 Squad
Activate any 1 Squad Card.
If you have no Squad figures, you may normally activate 1 Army Card of your choice.
LOL! I just changed all of my "activation"s to "order"s! This doesn't matter to me. I just wanted to use Heroscape verbage as much as possible. Do the official rules ever use the word "activate" or anything else instead of "order". I understand the redundancy of the language. What if we eliminated the word "Order" in the title (1 Squad) and then use the word "order" in the text. (You may order any 1 Squad). Just a thought. We could do the same thing for the point value cards. Again, I don't have a strong feeling one way or the other.

Here is the latest, and perhaps final version of the cards (at least for a while!). I think they are at the point where they can truly be play tested by others without any HUGE problems. Note that they do NOT have the changes you've mentioned in your post, which I would like to include. I think at this point it's worth putting your pretty versions in this thread for others to try out. (whenever you get around to it, of course!)

Once again, I'm thrilled that you are willing to add your input & talents to this. Thanks much!

[bobofett]

I did some more play testing and i think order markers work best with small armies. Because when you get "hero bonding" most players will go with a bonding army for a squad so they get to move 2 heroes with a squad or 1 hero twice plus a squad. that kind of fighting is good with large armies because it's not overkill, but with a small army it's a massive slaughter. Although i like the idea of moving points :D . that in itself would probably be good for small squads :idea: . I'll get back to you on that.

[bobofett]

Question: how come all of the versions are exactly the same or am i missing something. :?:

[jbbnbsmith]

I did some more play testing and i think order markers work best with small armies. Because when you get "hero bonding" most players will go with a bonding army for a squad so they get to move 2 heroes with a squad or 1 hero twice plus a squad. that kind of fighting is good with large armies because it's not overkill, but with a small army it's a massive slaughter. Although i like the idea of moving points :D . that in itself would probably be good for small squads :idea: . I'll get back to you on that.
I would agree with you. With small armies (under 500), there usually are not that many figures (unless you choose all 50 pt cards!), so the turn markers work perfectly well. With larger armies, (well over 500) I have found the turn markers to be a bit limiting when trying to get all of the armies into position. It can be done, but it I've found the command cards, so far, to work better IMBO (In my biased opinion!)

I hope to play some small army games over the next few days. Perhaps the answer is to prohibit the use of certain cards that activate proportionately too many figures. That would certainly be an easy fix while maintaining some of the benefits of the command cards. Perhaps we could come up with a recommended deck make-up based upon the size of the army. For smaller armies, do not include cards that would allow more than two armies to be ordered in a turn, and have even two be a low probability.

Thanks for your feedback! :D

By the way, I just reread your post and the part where you mention moving one hero twice is actually not allowed. A figure may only be ordered once per turn (except for any special abilities like Frenzy). That certainly makes a difference in the game!

[bobofett]

By the way, I just reread your post and the part where you mention moving one hero twice is actually not allowed. A figure may only be ordered once per turn (except for any special abilities like Frenzy). That certainly makes a difference in the game!

:shock: :shock: WHOOPS :shock: :shock: oh well too late now. :D

[Malechi]

... I just changed all of my "activation"s to "order"s! This doesn't matter to me. I just wanted to use Heroscape verbage as much as possible. Do the official rules ever use the word "activate" or anything else instead of "order".

Actually, it doesn't use either term. Correct HeroScape termonolgy would be "Turn", "move and attack" or "mobilize". I think you got "Order" from the term "Order Marker"

[jbbnbsmith]

... I just changed all of my "activation"s to "order"s! This doesn't matter to me. I just wanted to use Heroscape verbage as much as possible. Do the official rules ever use the word "activate" or anything else instead of "order".

Actually, it doesn't use either term. Correct HeroScape termonolgy would be "Turn", "move and attack" or "mobilize". I think you got "Order" from the term "Order Marker"
Then how about if we keep the word "Order" in the card title, and use the phrase "take a turn with" in the text. Something like these:

Order 1 Squad: You may take a turn with any one Squad Card of your choice.

Order 90 Points: You may take a turn with any combination of figures that total 90 points or less.

Order Unique Squad x3: You may take a turn with up to three Unique Squad Cards.

What do you think about that? Does it become too wordy? The little disclaimer statements such as "If you have no Unique figures, you may normally order 1 Army Card of your choice" could probably stay as they are, unless you think it would be better to be consistent and say "take a normal turn with."

[jbbnbsmith]

Question: how come all of the versions are exactly the same or am i missing something. :?:
The very first post of this thread contains the most recent version as this is linked to the Download section of the page. The original version 1 has therefore been displaced. Also, some of the changes are fairly subtle and only involve some minor wording or additions/subtractions. I think versions 2 and 3 may still be scattered throughout this thread.

[shakey_snake]

order (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=order) has 27 different definitions. Order as in "order marker" has always ment to I think most people: "in this order my pieces will move". You are using the same term, but a foriegn definition you mean order as in "I order these troops to go"

Because you're changing the definition, you're making things more confusing, which, I understand, is the opposite of what your trying to do with the language.




..........................
120 points
Take a turn with any 120 pts that you control

[jbbnbsmith]

order (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=order) has 27 different definitions. Order as in "order marker" has always ment to I think most people: "in this order my pieces will move". You are using the same term, but a foriegn definition you mean order as in "I order these troops to go"

Because you're changing the definition, you're making things more confusing, which, I understand, is the opposite of what your trying to do with the language.




..........................
120 points
Take a turn with any 120 pts that you control
Interesting perspective. I honestly never thought of the order markers as showing the order in which armies would be activated. I always thought of it as, on turn 1 this army receives orders, and turn two this army receives orders, etc. In other marking the turn on which an army receives orders. I assumed the military definition of order (both a noun and a verb). But I certainly understand your take on it. Makes me wonder what the designers actually had in mind (not that it makes any real difference).

Isn't word smithing fun!! :?

Edit: By the way, in the link you gave for "order" when used as a verb, which is how it is used on the cards, the very first definition is "to issue a command to." So we are not using a foreign definition but the primary one. Therefore, I don't think there should be any confusion in the term.

[AmishBurrito]

AllSkulls Said:
How about another expansion of Mission cards (Risk)? I used this idea in Heroclix and it worked great. Each player gets a secret mission that, upon completion, grants some kind of bonus to the player's team (mainly bonus points for upgrading...I was running a campaign). This can be applied to Heroscape with the completion of a mission meaning an automatic win or even an in-game bonus like reinforcements or an additional turn marker (or usable command card) for rest of battle.


I would REALLY like to see mission cards like risk, and give in game bonus's. I do not think each mission card should have the bonus on it, i think the mission cards should be given at random, and the bonus should be picked at random after completion of the mission (using the X as a 4th turn, or getting reinforcements, or making one hero have +1A &D sounds awesome to me

[Malechi]

jbbnbsmith,

The version 4 download has only one page and sixteen cards in it. It appears the others pages were never added.

Order 50 Points through Order 1 Squad are all that were included.

[jbbnbsmith]

jbbnbsmith,

The version 4 download has only one page and sixteen cards in it. It appears the others pages were never added.

Order 50 Points through Order 1 Squad are all that were included.
Thanks for the heads up. I'm not sure what happened, but the whole file is now posted.

[jbbnbsmith]

Here's a quick update to the progress of the Command Cards. Over the past several days, Malechi and I have been tweaking the language, he has been making the edits on the very cool looking cards and rules, and I have been playtesting and giving him more changes to make! We have also been working on a modified card for Dund, as his special ability specificall mentions order markers.

I've play tested with armies ranging in size from 350 to about 800, and I have found all of the games to be balanced. In other words, while the cards provide some variety of play, they do not break the game. I think the cards are a good alternative to order markers that add a few twists while still keeping feel of the game. For much larger armies, I suppose the cards could be more agressive (that is, allow for more cards/points to be activated) but perhaps that will be a future expansion. I think it would be fun to play 2500 point battles where up to five or six cards could be activated at one time! But I digress...

The bottom line is, I think the cards, rules, and modified Dund army card are just about ready to go. Malechi still has the task of making the final edits, but I suspect his glorious artwork will soon be gracing this thread in the not too distant future.

[CornPuff]

I just tuned in. Good luck with the next version! I'm excited to see it

[Malechi]

I have made all the changes that jbbnbsmith has requested at this point. I am going to drop off the PDF at Kinkos tomorrow for a final print to test the actual CMYK colors and its general look (especially the alternate Dünd Army Card). So the final version should be available soon!


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[jbbnbsmith]

Just as an update, the command cards, rules sheet, and revised Dund card are finished and ready to go. They look great thanks to Malechi's artistic talents. Now we are just dealing with how best to upload the file as it is a bit large (3.4 Mb or so). My set of command cards is all printed out and inside sleeves. I've been using them for quite a while now and have really enjoyed the change of pace. So until they are ready for download...

Tick


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[jbbnbsmith]

I was going to wait until the final version cards were posted before I shared this, but I'm getting ready to go away for a bit so....

Last night a few of us were using the commands cards. After we finished the game, we started talking about alternative ways to use the cards. We played a few short game (small armies) and found that the following variations provided other interesting ways to use the command cards.

The first way was to separate the defensive cards from the rest of the deck. The defensive cards were shuffled and each player received one defensive card. The rest of the cards were shuffled and placed to one side of the map. Initiative was rolled. The winning player turned over the first card from the deck. This card was then used for all players, in the order of the initiative rolls. A player could use their defensive card at any time, but no one received a new defensive card until every player had played theirs. This was an interesting variation. I'm not sure it was better than the original method of using the command cards, but it was an interesting way to play. Everyone had to make the most opf the same cards, and there were times when going last was mopre advantageous than going first.

The second way was to shuffle the entire deck, and each round three cards per player were dealt face up in a common area. Initiative was rolled, and the winning player got to choose any one of the face up command cards. The second player then chose a card, and so on. At anytime, a player could use a face up defensive card, which was immediately replaced with another face up card. This too was a fun variation. You could sort of plan out your strategy, but at the same time you never knew if the card you wanted would be used by someone else first. You laso were faced with some tough decisions, especially when you wanted to attack but there was a good defensive card in the pile.

Anyway, just thought I'd share those variations on a variation. I case one of the benefit of a card based systems is there it opens the doors to many different ways to play, just like poker!

[Parduz]

I'm waiting for the final version.
I will want to make a request, which i don't know if this will be possible:
As you maybe know, PDFs store things in Text format or as Images.
IF possible, can i ask to keep the text "as text" in PDF? So i can then edit it and translating in Italian?

This will not be possible if Malechi do his art making the text as part of the card images.
I don't want to limit the fantastic talent of malechi at all, so pls think at this request only if don't limit your work at all :)

[shakey_snake]

when the DL's redy, I'm ready for these.

[Malechi]

I'm waiting for the final version.
I will want to make a request, which i don't know if this will be possible:
As you maybe know, PDFs store things in Text format or as Images.
IF possible, can i ask to keep the text "as text" in PDF? So i can then edit it and translating in Italian?

This will not be possible if Malechi do his art making the text as part of the card images.
I don't want to limit the fantastic talent of malechi at all, so pls think at this request only if don't limit your work at all :)

Parduz,

The text on the cards is indeed part of the image. I do this to keep the file size smaller and to use a wider variety of fonts. We can work out something like we did with Quests of HeroScape.



To everyone else,

My apologies for the delays, I am working with Truth to determine why the files keep getting the same error: "Attempted to upload empty file" (I am having the same problem with original Quests of HeroScape file) both files are over 3 Mbs, but the file limit size should be 8 Mb.

[shakey_snake]

still waiting...

[jbbnbsmith]

still waiting...
Tell me about it! By the way, I tried dividing the file up into smaller pieces (about 500 kB) and I still got errors (not the "empty file" error I'd seen before but "Upload Error: Could not upload Attachment to ./files/command_cards_rules_and_dund_160.pdf.. " I'm not sure what is wrong.

[netherspirit]

still waiting...
Tell me about it! By the way, I tried dividing the file up into smaller pieces (about 500 kB) and I still got errors (not the "empty file" error I'd seen before but "Upload Error: Could not upload Attachment to ./files/command_cards_rules_and_dund_160.pdf.. " I'm not sure what is wrong.

Have you tried uploading it to the download section? I think the attachment feature has been turned off. I will double check though.

[jbbnbsmith]

Post deleted as it contained out of date link information

Edit: Nether, I haven't tried the download section yet.

[netherspirit]

Edit: Nether, I haven't tried the download section yet.

You should try that :)

[jbbnbsmith]

Edit: Nether, I haven't tried the download section yet.

You should try that :)
When I go to the download section it says that I'm logged in as a guest user. When I try to log in I get an error. :?

[netherspirit]

Edit: Nether, I haven't tried the download section yet.

You should try that :)
When I go to the download section it says that I'm logged in as a guest user. When I try to log in I get an error. :?

You have to register. The databases aren't integrated :(

[jbbnbsmith]

Edit: Nether, I haven't tried the download section yet.

You should try that :)
When I go to the download section it says that I'm logged in as a guest user. When I try to log in I get an error. :?

You have to register. The databases aren't integrated :(
Oohh...when did that happen? Guess I missed it! :oops:
I'll give that a try later on. For now though, the link works and the Command Cards are available for download to anyone interested.
http://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=31

[Sapper]

No activity on this thread since 30 June! Here is a friendly bump.

Also jbbnbsmith I have given your command cards a go and I really like them. They give you more flexibility with your forces. I may never go back to using order markers again, seriously.

One question:

The move 50, 70, 90 pts are the only cards I have a small problem with. When figuring out the value of a single squad fig do you round up or down. Do you round to the nearest 5. I have been rounding to the nearest 5 and the average fig seems to be worth 20 to 25 pts. Have you thought about maybe haveing the card read move 2, 3 or 4 individual squad figs. The only reason I say this is because doing the math just adds a small level of complexity.

BTW, I like really like your cards one nitpick and all.

[jbbnbsmith]

No activity on this thread since 30 June! Here is a friendly bump.

Also jbbnbsmith I have given your command cards a go and I really like them. They give you more flexibility with your forces. I may never go back to using order markers again, seriously.

One question:

The move 50, 70, 90 pts are the only cards I have a small problem with. When figuring out the value of a single squad fig do you round up or down. Do you round to the nearest 5. I have been rounding to the nearest 5 and the average fig seems to be worth 20 to 25 pts. Have you thought about maybe haveing the card read move 2, 3 or 4 individual squad figs. The only reason I say this is because doing the math just adds a small level of complexity.

BTW, I like really like your cards one nitpick and all.
Two reasons for posting. First to reply to the comments above (finally!) and second to mention that the cards are in the download section at last (thanks Malechi)

Sapper, thanks for trying the cards and I'm glad you like them. I use them about half of the time, just depends on who is playing. I also agree that the calculations associated with the points cards can be a bit of a hassle. The purpose of these particular cards, as you know, was to allow combinations of different armies to move/attack at the same time. I didn't want someone to be able to move Charos, Krug, and Jotun on the same turn, so that's why I didn't say "move any three figures". On the other hand, I didn't want to exclude heroes from the point total either. But maybe if the card allowed you to move X number of squad figures, and if you had no squad figures you could move any hero, that would work.

As for the calculations, we usually just leave the numbers as they are, no rounding, and you can't exceed the command card's point value. We'vbe gotten used to the numbers for most of the squads so it doesn't take too long once you've crunched through a few. But there's certainly nothing wrong with using a calculator!

[Doc_Savage]

Yet another awesome HS thing that I missed. I can't wait to download this and check it out.

Regarding the cards that work on points - I would reccommend rounding UP to the nearest 5.


EDIT - After a quick look at the great cards - I really do want to try this out - I noticed that "alternative" was misspelled on the face of the Dund card.

[caw]

Hi,

I'm eager to give this a try after playing Battlelore. I just wanted to confirm that the pdf posted at

http://graceaog.com/Media/MediaManager/Command%20Cards.pdf

was the latest version as I can't get the zip version in the download section to work (tells me it's corrupt or multipart)

Thank you

[Malechi]

Hi,

I'm eager to give this a try after playing Battlelore. I just wanted to confirm that the pdf posted at

http://graceaog.com/Media/MediaManager/Command%20Cards.pdf

was the latest version as I can't get the zip version in the download section to work (tells me it's corrupt or multipart)

Thank you

I am almost sure they are indeed one and the same.

The one in the downloads section here is fine. Most likely what happened was the download was interrupted at some point. If you attempted to download while that corrupted download was still in your cache it would download the same corrupted download again and again. To correct this go to your browser's preferences and clear your cache, then redownload the item.

[caw]

Cheers Malechi,

looks like that was exactly what happened to my download. Works fine now.
Also, both the downloads are of the same version.

Thanks again, looking forward to trying em out

[Malechi]

looks like that was exactly what happened to my download. Works fine now.

This seems to be a common error many people make when downloading. So, we need to change the old adage from "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again." to the 21st Century version "If at first you don't succeed, clear your Cache and then try again!"

:wink:

[jbbnbsmith]

I haven't visited this neck of the woods for a while. I wanted to let everyone know that the link to the cards from the "graceaog.com" site is dead. So be sure to use the http://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=31 link instead.

[ReqMan]

wow, great idea and implementation! looks great!

i have one question relating to playing rules... (sorry if this has already been covered).

lets say I have 1 squad of Arrow Gruts, 1 squad of Blade Gruts, 1 orc champion, and 1 beast. Now I get a 50 Point card, so I move 2 Blade Gruts and 1 Arrow Grut.

Does that mean I get to activate both of their bonding abilities, and thus take a turn with the Beast, move the 1 arrow grut, then take a turn with the orc champion, then move the 2 blade gruts?

Or is there a rule that only allows one bonding per turn?

[jbbnbsmith]

wow, great idea and implementation! looks great!

i have one question relating to playing rules... (sorry if this has already been covered).

lets say I have 1 squad of Arrow Gruts, 1 squad of Blade Gruts, 1 orc champion, and 1 beast. Now I get a 50 Point card, so I move 2 Blade Gruts and 1 Arrow Grut.

Does that mean I get to activate both of their bonding abilities, and thus take a turn with the Beast, move the 1 arrow grut, then take a turn with the orc champion, then move the 2 blade gruts?

Or is there a rule that only allows one bonding per turn?
You would be able to use both bonding abilities in the case you described.

[Eckels]

I know that I'm a bit late to this thread, but i did a search and this seems to be the place to talk about the command cards...

Just want to say, i've been playing with the cards for monthss and I love them. I've always hated order markers (they slow the game too much when heavily inebriated. Sometimes it's tough to quickly remember what your strategy was 2 turns ago... ). The command cards make the game run so much smoother.

I must say, I do wish that I had read the command card rules thoroughly, earlier than now, because I had basically written off the airborne elite. See, we've just been playing a continuous game - finish the turn then draw a card, ignoring "rounds". it hasn't bothered us, but the "three turns then draw to fill the hand to 5" (Full Round) seems to make a lot more sense.

A coulple of specific army-card questions:

Shiori: Just wondering what you do with shiori? We've decided to simply give her a permanent attack bonus and nix the defense bonus, but I was wondering if anyone else had a more interesting solution?

Red Skull and Silver Surfer: both take a hit in the special abilities category, red skull losing his master manipulator, and silver surfer losing his 20d roll in the cosmic force special attack. For the Silver Surfer we've just ignored the 20d, since it's already a better attack than his basic attack, but red skull is basically tactically useless. Just wondering if anyone has substituted any neat rules in here,

Spartacus: I don't currently have this figure, but what to do with spartacus? he seems to be completely crippled by the command cards, and for a 200 point character, i'd say that's a big loss.

There is a TNT card, that as I'm typing this, I can't recall it's name. It's basically a Mimring re-paint that has "Shimmering Wings" or something like that... he's got a special ability that allows a person to forfeit an order marker to make his defense roll an automatic 5 skulls. I intend to use this figure, so I might as well get some opinions now. Should this special ability cause the player to lose a turn entirely? maybe the next turn he/she will get skipped? I'm not sure, and was wondering what others though.

Thanks for these awesome command cards, and thanks in advance for any advice you can give!

[Firemaster]

There is a TNT card, that as I'm typing this, I can't recall it's name. It's basically a Mimring re-paint that has "Shimmering Wings" or something like that... he's got a special ability that allows a person to forfeit an order marker to make his defense roll an automatic 5 skulls. I intend to use this figure, so I might as well get some opinions now. Should this special ability cause the player to lose a turn entirely? maybe the next turn he/she will get skipped? I'm not sure, and was wondering what others though.

You were close, but a bit off on the card. That would be my Refotao Emihu Custom and his "Perfect Defense" ability.

I would think the best way to handle his ability would be to, if you decide to use it, randomly discard one command card from your hand, then skip your next turn.

[Eckels]

ah yes. forgive my forgetfulness.

Bitchin card, BTW. :)

[Eckels]

A couple of specific army-card questions:

Shiori: Just wondering what you do with shiori? We've decided to simply give her a permanent attack bonus and nix the defense bonus, but I was wondering if anyone else had a more interesting solution?

Red Skull and Silver Surfer: both take a hit in the special abilities category, red skull losing his master manipulator, and silver surfer losing his 20d roll in the cosmic force special attack. For the Silver Surfer we've just ignored the 20d, since it's already a better attack than his basic attack, but red skull is basically tactically useless. Just wondering if anyone has substituted any neat rules in here,

Spartacus: I don't currently have this figure, but what to do with spartacus? he seems to be completely crippled by the command cards, and for a 200 point character, i'd say that's a big loss.

So does anyone have any advice on these?

[Marcus Decimus Gallus]

A couple of specific army-card questions:

Shiori: Just wondering what you do with shiori? We've decided to simply give her a permanent attack bonus and nix the defense bonus, but I was wondering if anyone else had a more interesting solution?

Red Skull and Silver Surfer: both take a hit in the special abilities category, red skull losing his master manipulator, and silver surfer losing his 20d roll in the cosmic force special attack. For the Silver Surfer we've just ignored the 20d, since it's already a better attack than his basic attack, but red skull is basically tactically useless. Just wondering if anyone has substituted any neat rules in here,

Spartacus: I don't currently have this figure, but what to do with spartacus? he seems to be completely crippled by the command cards, and for a 200 point character, i'd say that's a big loss.

So does anyone have any advice on these?



Just thinking off the top of my head for Spartacus:

As far as implementing the ability, no problem:

- if you activate a gladiator and you have not already activated a non-gladiator that round, then you must declare whether you are using Spart's ability; thereafter you may only activate gladiators that round
- if your gladiator is attacked and you have not yet activated anyone that round, then you must declare whether you are are using Spart's power; thereafter you may only activate gladiators that round

You are still faced with the problem that if a gladiator dies then you either forget using Spart's power or you only make two activations. In the 'normal' game you would always get three. Is that completely ruining the character? No, but maybe justifies a point reduction for Sparts?

If a second gladiator dies then just like the 'normal' game Spart's power is useless.

So, the only thing that really hampers Sparts would be when you have one dead gladiator. But we already know that several figures are less powerful in the card system so maybe it isn't a big deal.

[jbbnbsmith]

I really do need to check this thread more often!

It's great that there are some folks who are using and enjoying the command cards. Ironically, I haven't used them in over a year! I still think they are a nice variation to the game, though.

One of the problems with the command cards is the addition of new abilities that specifically make use of the order markers. The only one that existed when we first did the command cards was Dund, which was a pretty simple fix. But now there are quite a few, many of which do not have so simple of a fix as Dund. Obviously, if a unit's abilities are not directly transformed from the world of order markers to the world of command cards then that will affect the point cost, which will affect the game balance, which was the one thing I did not want the command cards to do (unbalance the game).

It sounds like you already have some good ideas about how to fit the newer abilities into the context of command cards. I'll go through the figures and see what I can come up with as well.

[one_day_remains]

Originally Posted by Eckels

A couple of specific army-card questions:

Shiori: ... wondering if anyone else had a more interesting solution?

Red Skull and Silver Surfer: ...



For Shiori, have the defense bonus active at the beginning of each round; "Concentrated Will" remains as long as no more than 1 Command Card is used to activate Shiori during a round. If a second Command Card activates Shiori during a round, her concentration begins to falter and her defense bonus is lost for the remainder of the round.

For Silver Surfer, I edited him a lot. I switched the Cosmic Force Blast stats with his normal attack stats and made the 16 or higher roll allow the removal of one card from the opponent's hand to be discarded immediately.

For Red Skull, I don't have any ideas right now...the added options of the Command Cards make an alternate working of his power difficult to determine. If I think of anything, I'll PM you.

[Supa]

I've tried a few of the links in this thread so far and I've been 404'd by all of them. Where can I find these cards? :confused:

[Malechi]

The links were incorrect due to the website overhaul, although the file is still in the downloads section. I corrected the 'scapers download links within this thread ...

[Supa]

Awesome thanks, I'll check it out.

[DragonSlayer2]

Have any of you tried playing without turn markers, or a point system? I also had an idea like the one in this thread, I had no idea it was real.

[Supa]

Well even with the cards, the point system is needed to retain a balanced army size. No matter how you slice it, I don't think 800 vs. 400 would be fair (unless it was a D-Day Scenario... anybody know of one of those, btw?)

[DragonSlayer2]

I mean you and your opponet both pic the same number of figures/cards. It doesnt matter how many points you get you just keep drafting until there are no guys left to draft.

[Malechi]

... And again as Supa just stated the point system is needed to retain a balanced army size. 5 Army Cards valued at 100 points vs. 5 Army Cards valued at 800 points does not a good game make (although, it may be fun for the guy with the 5 Army Cards at 800 points)!

[jbbnbsmith]

I was just reading through this thread again. It looks like Malechi has been editing with a search and replace so that everywhere the word "dund" appears it is corrected as "Dünd".

I had to laugh when I found the following:


...I understand the reDündancy of the language...

:D - very funny.

Edit: It looks like the umlaut is automatically added since I cannot even write Dund without it being added. This can make for some great fun.

"Michael Scott is the regional manager of Dunder-Mifflin"

"The bootleggers had to stop their rum production because they were running low on dunder."

"Some of the special abilities of recent Hersoscape figures have rendered a few of the defensive command cards, such as "First Strike", redundant."

"I have a friend who is taking classes at Dundalk Community College."

"Last night I kept forgetting to give myself an extra die when I had height advantage. I felt like such a dunderhead."

"Traveling through Australia I was struck by the beauty of the dundathu pines."

"He looked a little bit like Elvis with his black hair and dundrearies."


That's all I've got. Feel free to add your own.

[Malechi]

That is actually a new feature added to the website to correct the spelling of Dünd's name. It is automatic. I will report that faux-pas to funrun ...

[jbbnbsmith]

That is actually a new feature added to the website to correct the spelling of Dünd's name. It is automatic. I will report that faux-pas to funrun ...
Oh, okay. I hadn't noticed it before. I actually think it's quite charming. It lends a bit of Heroscape personality to words containing 'dund'.

[Gabbi]

just finished cutting and gluing my set of cards (that were lying in a huge pile of web printed stuff by months, if not years).
well, once finished, I horribly discovered that the cards are 64 (that's 8*8, where were I during math lessons?) while the pack of yugioh sleeves I expecially purchased (as I glued command cards on ygo commons I borrowed at the store) contains only 60.

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/6788/azzaz7.gif

so, waiting to complete the quest of acquiring 64 sleeves of the same color, I've left out the two 50 and the two 70 points cards, to keep the game more action packed.

looking at these cards, make me wonder if it shouldn't be a nice addition allowing the player to draw two and keep one, after playing these, as for BattleLore weaker cards (and this suggestion is more or less the reason for this long and verbose post ^^).

[TheChin!]

I just came across these cards while looking for Heroscape downloads and they seem pretty cool. After reading this entire thread, I do have an additonal twist that I think would add an interesting element to card play. In the old Amoeba Wars board game, it had a card system that allowed special actions or accumulation of ships but also determined turn order. How it works is that each card gets a number on it, with lower powered cards (or less flexible) having lower numbers. Everyone reveals a card for the round and the player with the lowest number gets to go first. This puts you in the situation of "bidding" for turn order by limiting yourself. Any thoughts?

I think I might print these cards out and play it both ways. From a cursury glance it seems that they are roughly in "value" order at the moment, but if anyone with extensive play experience has information otherwise, let me know.