Nilfheim, ice shard attack, and LOS

[philowar]

Played Nilfheim last night and a big question came up. Nilfheim had Ne-Gok-Sa right in front of him and Braxas in back. Could he hit both with his ice shard special attack or does he need to be FACING both (line of sight?)

I know Mimring can use his fire line attack in any direction, regardless of how he is facing, but can Nilfheim? I mean, can Nilfheim be considered to be turning his neck around to attack a guy in back of him after he attacks the guy in front, or what?

The same question applies to BRAXAS and her acid breath attack.

Thanks!

(Posted this in a Nilfheim thread but it's buried in four pages of messages, so I don't think anyone is seeing it)

[netherspirit]

Facing doesn't matter. As long as you can draw a line from his head to the figure you are attacking.

[bobofett]

in these situations think logically. so yes he could turn his head and hit both of them.

[toddrew]

in these situations think logically. so yes he could turn his head and hit both of them.

Careful with that advice, plenty of illogic happening in Valhalla :)

[LilNewbie]

Real logic and game logic sometimes don't mix. There are many miniature games that facing is very important. In this case, as long as the target can be seen from the targeting point (the green point on Nilf's targeting picture) then he has LOS on that target. The green point is considered 360 so if you can target a figure's red target area to the rear of Nilf using the green targeting point, you have LOS on that target.

Newb.

[philowar]

Thanks for the replies. Some other discussion on here about Major Q9's shoulder pads blocking his peripheral LOS also made me think and prompted the Nilfheim question.

[bobofett]

in these situations think logically. so yes he could turn his head and hit both of them.

Careful with that advice, plenty of illogic happening in Valhalla :)

Point well taken, but still sometimes i think heroscape and heroscapers take things too literally.

[Troy Spiral]

Thanks for the replies. Some other discussion on here about Major Q9's shoulder pads blocking his peripheral LOS also made me think and prompted the Nilfheim question.

I've read stuff like "no figs block their own LOS except Q9" but I'm thinking that's probably in error. If a fig is locked in a tight spot and cant swivel properly or turn around, especially the big figures, the LOS couldn't be drawn straight through a wing i wouldn't think.

[rdhight]

Thanks for the replies. Some other discussion on here about Major Q9's shoulder pads blocking his peripheral LOS also made me think and prompted the Nilfheim question.

I've read stuff like "no figs block their own LOS except Q9" but I'm thinking that's probably in error. If a fig is locked in a tight spot and cant swivel properly or turn around, especially the big figures, the LOS couldn't be drawn straight through a wing i wouldn't think.

It's not very bad with Mimring and Braxas. When you've got the dragon's wing between you and him/her, the wing is nearly edge-on to you, so the tip of a horn is almost always peeking around the edge. Nilfheim's wings are a little more side-on to his head, but there again, the horns solve most of his problems. With a compact figure in the right place, it can happen, but it's a real rarity compared to Q9. The wings hitting terrain is a much bigger problem in my games.

[Troy Spiral]

Thanks for the replies. Some other discussion on here about Major Q9's shoulder pads blocking his peripheral LOS also made me think and prompted the Nilfheim question.

I've read stuff like "no figs block their own LOS except Q9" but I'm thinking that's probably in error. If a fig is locked in a tight spot and cant swivel properly or turn around, especially the big figures, the LOS couldn't be drawn straight through a wing i wouldn't think.

It's not very bad with Mimring and Braxas. When you've got the dragon's wing between you and him/her, the wing is nearly edge-on to you, so the tip of a horn is almost always peeking around the edge. Nilfheim's wings are a little more side-on to his head, but there again, the horns solve most of his problems. With a compact figure in the right place, it can happen, but it's a real rarity compared to Q9. The wings hitting terrain is a much bigger problem in my games.


Tip of a horn? The LOS spot is like right at the eyes/center of face isnt it? Guess im not grasping what your meaning there.

[rdhight]

It's not the eyes, face, or the center of the head. The green dot indicates the whole head. Horns count.

Can Mimring block his own LOS? If he can't, then how can you determine LOS if he is blocking it. BTW: This is possible.

Official Ruling: When determining LOS for Mimring's FIRE LINE SPECIAL ATTACK and firing to the direct rear, you may use the tip of either long horn on his head as a targeting point. I know this is not in the rules. It will be eventually fixed, and in the rules. All parts of his body block LOS.

Customer support didn't exactly knock that one out of the park, did they? The next question in the list is not "Uh, that's good to know, but what about other ranged figures with horns, or Mimring firing in another direction for that matter? What's the deal there?" which you can bet it would have been had I gotten that answer, but I believe a consensus has developed that all horns count all the time, not just in the case of a backwards fireline. If I'm wrong and that is still an open question, someone please correct me.

[Troy Spiral]

Having read up on miming just now the horns thing seemed like a band-aid to salvage the rear firing line special attack diagram (which would be near impossible using the actual LOS dot as shown (which seems fine)) rule as printed in the rulebook?

Then to extend that special (or seemingly special) rule to all "pointy head" figs ?

Not that i ever felt that dot-on-a-silhouette was very precise to begin with.

Might as well just have right in the rules "use the head & anything attached to the head" and make sure all figs have heads... then we get into some figs have basically "head trunks" with no discernable head separation from the neck.... ugh. lol


Luckily a lot of this doesn't come into play that much at least not for me so far, but i know it will come up. Guess the control freak in me wants to avoid iffy situations as much as possible.


One thing i keep returning to in my head is the er... 3 years in between RotV and SotM they didn't get hammered with enough of these same questions to sort them out with the 2nd edition of the rules? At least the major ones that seem to have been lingering about for a long time as far as i can tell.

[Draconious]

Because we can flip freely on our turns... I think the horn rule should be scrapped... and his power should not even need LOS anyway it should just hit whatever is in those 8 spaces, minus going through terrain. The terrain is the reason for the LOS, so they should have worded it differently, the horn thing was just easier.

[Aranas]

...One thing i keep returning to in my head is the er... 3 years in between RotV and SotM they didn't get hammered with enough of these same questions to sort them out with the 2nd edition of the rules? At least the major ones that seem to have been lingering about for a long time as far as i can tell.
It's even worst then you think. The rules included in Swarm of the Marro are the 3rd edition of the rules. :wink:


Aranas

[Troy Spiral]

...One thing i keep returning to in my head is the er... 3 years in between RotV and SotM they didn't get hammered with enough of these same questions to sort them out with the 2nd edition of the rules? At least the major ones that seem to have been lingering about for a long time as far as i can tell.
It's even worst then you think. The rules included in Swarm of the Marro are the 3rd edition of the rules. :wink:


Aranas


Its especially bad since you told me before it was the 3rd edition and i've read that other places, yet somehow seem to keep thinking of RotV as just "one edition" and call SotM 2nd edition. *bonks self*



SotM basically is "The Official Up To Date Rulebook" now correct?
Yes. 3rd and up-to-date rulebook.


Aranas

[Riggler]

Played Nilfheim last night and a big question came up. Nilfheim had Ne-Gok-Sa right in front of him and Braxas in back. Could he hit both with his ice shard special attack or does he need to be FACING both (line of sight?)

***SNIP ***
The same question applies to BRAXAS and her acid breath attack.

Thanks!

(Posted this in a Nilfheim thread but it's buried in four pages of messages, so I don't think anyone is seeing it)

Let me point out something no one else did on this. Because Nilfheim's Ice Shard is a SPECIAL ATTACK, if you mean Ne-Gok-Sa is "right in front of him" as in adjacent, then --- Nilfheim must target Ne-Gok-Sa first with his Ice Shard SPECIAL ATTACK and KILL Ne-Gok-Sa with that first targeted attack before Nilfheim could then target any other figures not adjacent to him.

HOWEVER, since Braxas poisonous breath weapon is NOT a special attack, Braxas can attack three figures within range without regard to whether a figure is engaged with her or not.

[rdhight]

Having read up on miming just now the horns thing seemed like a band-aid to salvage the rear firing line special attack diagram (which would be near impossible using the actual LOS dot as shown (which seems fine)) rule as printed in the rulebook?

Yes, it seems that way to me too. There's some tension in rules interpretation between those who imagine the figures constantly twisting, crouching, bending, and dodging, and therefore don't like important game decisions based on the position the figure happens to be sculpted in, and those who are more comfortable with the restrictions that spring from static miniatures, especially powerful ones like Q9, Nilfheim, and Krug whose unwieldy shape can help keep them under control. The "whole head" ruling, and especially the part about the horns, is definitely a nod to those who would complain, "Well, he can just turn his head to fireline backwards..."

Again, if I am wrong to play that all horns count, someone please speak up.

Let me point out something no one else did on this. Because Nilfheim's Ice Shard is a SPECIAL ATTACK, if you mean Ne-Gok-Sa is "right in front of him" as in adjacent, then --- Nilfheim must target Ne-Gok-Sa first with his Ice Shard SPECIAL ATTACK and KILL Ne-Gok-Sa with that first targeted attack before Nilfheim could then target any other figures not adjacent to him.

HOWEVER, since Braxas poisonous breath weapon is NOT a special attack, Braxas can attack three figures within range without regard to whether a figure is engaged with her or not.

Let me also point out that you never need LOS to attack a figure with which you are engaged.

[xamboto]

I read the faqs, the rulebooks, and all the treats I could find in this forum. And I must say the rules of LOS for double spaced miniatures are imprecise an inconclusive. And I say more, these rules are bad studied and not play tested. These rules, like it was presented, cause all the mess I hate in most miniature games: like Warhammer for example.

So, I will play having in mind that I CAN EVER adjust all my figures (like said the rules) in my turn. So, the problem of LOS for double spaced figures does not exist.

That rule, like it is now, must be ignored by the scapers. It is like a kind of shame!

[Cavalier]

I read the faqs, the rulebooks, and all the treats I could find in this forum. And I must say the rules of LOS for double spaced miniatures are imprecise an inconclusive. And I say more, these rules are bad studied and not play tested. These rules, like it was presented, cause all the mess I hate in most miniature games: like Warhammer for example.

So, I will play having in mind that I CAN EVER adjust all my figures (like said the rules) in my turn. So, the problem of LOS for double spaced figures does not exist.

That rule, like it is now, must be ignored by the scapers. It is like a kind of shame!
Well, gee. Now that we have your ruling, we'll all change our play style to match yours, as it is abundently clear that you are right and the game designers and play test group are a bunch of monkeys who can't make a proper ruling on the mechanics of the game.

Thank you so much for taking pity on us and bestowing your great knowledge upon us.
</sarcasm>
:roll:

(BTW, make sure you never take part in any Tournaments or Game Days because you'll be forced to play by the actual rules of the game.)

[NecroBlade]

That rule, like it is now, must be ignored by the scapers. It is like a kind of shame!
YOU'RE like a kind of shame! [/:truth:]

[xamboto]

I read the faqs, the rulebooks, and all the treats I could find in this forum. And I must say the rules of LOS for double spaced miniatures are imprecise an inconclusive. And I say more, these rules are bad studied and not play tested. These rules, like it was presented, cause all the mess I hate in most miniature games: like Warhammer for example.

So, I will play having in mind that I CAN EVER adjust all my figures (like said the rules) in my turn. So, the problem of LOS for double spaced figures does not exist.

That rule, like it is now, must be ignored by the scapers. It is like a kind of shame!
Well, gee. Now that we have your ruling, we'll all change our play style to match yours, as it is abundently clear that you are right and the game designers and play test group are a bunch of monkeys who can't make a proper ruling on the mechanics of the game.

Thank you so much for taking pity on us and bestowing your great knowledge upon us.
</sarcasm>
:roll:

(BTW, make sure you never take part in any Tournaments or Game Days because you'll be forced to play by the actual rules of the game.)

Thanks for you sarcasm! (sarcasm)

Well, GEE, I hope you had read the new faq. It changes some of the stuff I criticized. Now you can "again" (like say the ruler book) adjust all your figures

It is stupid to be a "forgiving fan". what is wrong must be said as wrong!
You answer for my post was a shame. Shame on you!

There are still rules in the new faq that I found confuse and mess. My english is not that good, but I will try to write that questions in future and make you know.
I think the main point is that the so called advanced faq is turn to be a tournament rules faq. It must be called "Tournament Faq". I play HS for the epic-fantasy feeling and the easy and fast rules, and some of the new rules kill it.

BTW, make sure you flip you double-space-figures in the tournaments. Now you can do it again!