When does Microcorp Stealth Armor not apply?

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

Am I wrong on any of these? Are there more SA/conditions when Stealth Armor can't be applied?

* Mitonsoul
* Molten Lava roll
* Chomp
* Sudema's stare of stone
* Braxas's Acid attack
* Deadeye's Sharpshooter ability
* Extreme falling condition


On Saturday, I took Braxas and was able to wipe out 2 Agents with the Acid. I did not allow Stealth Armor to be rolled as the figures were 'destroyed'.

[netherspirit]

I would say that looks like a pretty complete list.

If it doesn't inflict wounds they can't Stealth Armor against it.

[K/H_Addict]

uhh.....i'd have to read their ability again. unless im mistaken, it only applies if you roll an attack die, not the 20.

[netherspirit]

uhh.....i'd have to read their ability again. unless im mistaken, it only applies if you roll an attack die, not the 20.

It applies to ignoring wounds. If a 20-sided die roll inflicts wounds they could Stealth Dodge it.

[K/H_Addict]

ohh...ok. like i said, i need to read the card again. i havent played in like 2 months...I REALLY wanna get a game in. I'll be playin a game this weekend hopefully

[LilNewbie]

If something outright destroys a Microcorp (not talking taking wounds but destroy), then they don't get to use the suit. The list provided by HeH looks inclusive for everything except for Massive Falling Damage (the D20 roll when you fall 20+ levels, iirc). Of course, this list will change as new abilities appear.

Newb.

[K/H_Addict]

iirc=if i recall?

[LilNewbie]

iirc=if I recall correctly. :D

Newb.

[K/H_Addict]

close enough. that was my second guess.

[Kenntak]

I guess you can say Crippling Gaze too.

[LilNewbie]

Interesting point, Kenntak. Never considered that but some rule-lawyer may try to pull that one even though it is a stretch.

Newb.

[MacG]

The counterexample I thought of for the d20 thing does demonstrate how silly the suit is: Jotun's throw.

Jotun's throw rolls d20 to do two wounds. Stealth armor can block that. The stealth armor doesn't stop Jotun from grabbing the guy, but it lets him miss the ground?


???

[Augray]

The armor protects them from taking damage on impact.

[LilNewbie]

LOL! Maybe the suit let's them roll with the blow.

Newb.

[StarSlayer]

That would make it the old tuck and roll trick i guess.

[netherspirit]

Tuck and roll grandma, tuck and roll.

[StarSlayer]

I really didn't want to say that out loud, BUT, that was a good ad.

[GaryLASQ]

Counter Strike says the extra sheilds are "unblockable hits". but that is what a wound is...an unblocked hit. so ignore this post :)

here's an interesting question about DW8K attacking a Microcorp.

if DW8K achieves an unblocked hit, but the Microcorp's Stealth Armor succeeds, did the DW8K actually "inflict" a wound (that went away) or not?

If not, he must stop his Rapid Fire. hmm...

[GaryLASQ]

Am I wrong on any of these? Are there more SA/conditions when Stealth Armor can't be applied?

* Mitonsoul
* Molten Lava roll
* Chomp
* Sudema's stare of stone
* Braxas's Acid attack
* Deadeye's Sharpshooter ability


add "Extreme Fall" to that list (per 2nd edition rulebook)

[Rÿchean]

Counter Strike says the extra sheilds are "unblockable hits". but that is what a wound is...an unblocked hit. so ignore this post :)

here's an interesting question about DW8K attacking a Microcorp.

if DW8K achieves an unblocked hit, but the Microcorp's Stealth Armor succeeds, did the DW8K actually "inflict" a wound (that went away) or not?

If not, he must stop his Rapid Fire. hmm...

When this came up, we ruled that DW8K did not inflict a wound therefor his rapid fire was over.

[netherspirit]

Counter Strike says the extra sheilds are "unblockable hits". but that is what a wound is...an unblocked hit. so ignore this post :)

here's an interesting question about DW8K attacking a Microcorp.

if DW8K achieves an unblocked hit, but the Microcorp's Stealth Armor succeeds, did the DW8K actually "inflict" a wound (that went away) or not?

If not, he must stop his Rapid Fire. hmm...

When this came up, we ruled that DW8K did not inflict a wound therefor his rapid fire was over.

I concur, message is authentic.

[Kenntak]

That is correct.

[CornPuff]

hmm, I'm not so sure.

If DW8k never inflicted a wound, then the microcorps wouldnt have to roll for stealth armor. Right? So, if DW inflicts a wound, then the mcas roll for stealth armor.

DW8k's ability says "If DW's rapid fire attack inflicts a wound." I'd say he still inflicts the wound, but the Stealth armor allows the microcorps to "ignore any wounds." This of course means the wound was inflicted (allowing more rapid fire) then ignored (allowing the agent to survive)

[netherspirit]

hmm, I'm not so sure.

If DW8k never inflicted a wound, then the microcorps wouldnt have to roll for stealth armor. Right? So, if DW inflicts a wound, then the mcas roll for stealth armor.

DW8k's ability says "If DW's rapid fire attack inflicts a wound." I'd say he still inflicts the wound, but the Stealth armor allows the microcorps to "ignore any wounds." This of course means the wound was inflicted (allowing more rapid fire) then ignored (allowing the agent to survive)

You roll attack dice for the DW8K special. He rolls 2 skulls.

You roll defense die for the Agents, they roll 1 sheild.

Now you roll for the Stealth Armor, you get a 19.

The wound that would have been inflicted is instead, ignored. DW8K never inflicted a wound.

[lilwis]

hmm, I'm not so sure.

If DW8k never inflicted a wound, then the microcorps wouldnt have to roll for stealth armor. Right? So, if DW inflicts a wound, then the mcas roll for stealth armor.

DW8k's ability says "If DW's rapid fire attack inflicts a wound." I'd say he still inflicts the wound, but the Stealth armor allows the microcorps to "ignore any wounds." This of course means the wound was inflicted (allowing more rapid fire) then ignored (allowing the agent to survive)

You roll attack dice for the DW8K special. He rolls 2 skulls.

You roll defense die for the Agents, they roll 1 sheild.

Now you roll for the Stealth Armor, you get a 19.

The wound that would have been inflicted is instead, ignored. DW8K never inflicted a wound.

There is a small fragment of time (we'll call this 'instant')where the wound that would have been inflicted, was instead deflected by the armor. So, it may be perceived that DW8K hit..however, reality is that it did not.

To take it further.. DW8K is standing there hopping 'I shot you! I know I did!' whilst the Agent is dusting off his suit looking for high ground to snipe DW8K... :wink:

[Rÿchean]

sort of like in the mine scene of LOTR fellowship

frodo was hit for sure, but mithiril saved him

wait a minute...DW8K isnt a cave troll

bad analogy..sorry ;-)

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

Am I wrong on any of these? Are there more SA/conditions when Stealth Armor can't be applied?

* Mitonsoul
* Molten Lava roll
* Chomp
* Sudema's stare of stone
* Braxas's Acid attack
* Deadeye's Sharpshooter ability


add "Extreme Fall" to that list (per 2nd edition rulebook)

Thanks. Got it.

[Jason]

I wonder if Morsbane could use that on the Agents to try getting the 20 aito kill. Here is the 1st part of what the power says:

"At the end of the turn, if you have at least 1 Negation Marker on this card, you may choose any opponent's unique figure within 6 clear sight spaces of Morsbane. "

"If you roll a 16-19, place a Negation Marker on the chosen figure's Army Card. All of that figure's special powers are negated for the entire game. If you roll a 20, destroy the chosen figure. "

-If you roll a 20 then that does not use up a Negation marker. Reading the 1st part of the power one could conclude that the Unique limitation on Morbane's power ONLY applies to negating powers and that the 20 could be used on commons like the Microcorp as well

(Some might claim rules lawerying but I do not think so)

[netherspirit]

I wonder if Morsbane could use that on the Agents to try getting the 20 aito kill. Here is the 1st part of what the power says:

"At the end of the turn, if you have at least 1 Negation Marker on this card, you may choose any opponent's unique figure within 6 clear sight spaces of Morsbane. "

"If you roll a 16-19, place a Negation Marker on the chosen figure's Army Card. All of that figure's special powers are negated for the entire game. If you roll a 20, destroy the chosen figure. "

-If you roll a 20 then that does not use up a Negation marker. Reading the 1st part of the power one could conclude that the Unique limitation on Morbane's power ONLY applies to negating powers and that the 20 could be used on commons like the Microcorp as well

(Some might claim rules lawerying but I do not think so)

You can't choose a common figure to target.

[Pilgrim]

But I think we need to add Morsbane to Hex's list.

[netherspirit]

But I think we need to add Morsbane to Hex's list.

No, because it can't kill a microcorp. Uniques only.

[Pilgrim]

Wait - scratch that. He can't attack commons. Something is wrong with my brain . . . . it's probably a lack of oxygen due to the death grip that fist has around my neck.

[Jason]

-Nether you are wrong, for Morsbane the Unique only comes into play when trying to Negate. The wording on the card makes it sound like you can target commons to try to kill them with the 20

-Similarly I'd expect one is able to roll for the auto kill even after all 3 negation markers are used up since the 20 does not require placing a negation marker

[netherspirit]

Nether you are wrong, for Morsbane the Unique only comes into play when trying to Negate. The wording on the card makes it sound like you can target commons to try to kill them with the 20

You sure about that? Read it again, before telling me I'm wrong ;)


Rod of Negation
Start the game with 3 brown Negation Markers on this card. At the end of the turn, if you have at least 1 Negation Marker on this card, you may choose any opponent's unique figure within 6 clear sight spaces of Morsbane. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 1-15, nothing happens. If you roll a 16-19, place a Negation Marker on the chosen figure's Army Card. All of that figure's special powers are negated for the entire game. If you roll a 20, destroy the chosen figure.

Emphasis mine.

Take a look at the second sentence. You can not even target a common figure with the Rod of Negation. Therefore you don't even get to roll the die against a common figure.

Before rolling the die, 4 conditions have to be met. First, it has to be the end of the turn. Second there has to be at least 1 negation counter on his card, third you have to choose a UNIQUE figure. Fourth, it has to be within 6 spaces of Morsbane. If any one of those conditions is not met you DO NOT roll the 20-sided die. If you can't make through the whole sentence, no die rolling for you.

[netherspirit]

-Similarly I'd expect one is able to roll for the auto kill even after all 3 negation markers are used up since the 20 does not require placing a negation marker

Nope, see my post above.

[LilNewbie]

-Nether you are wrong, for Morsbane the Unique only comes into play when trying to Negate. The wording on the card makes it sound like you can target commons to try to kill them with the 20

-Similarly I'd expect one is able to roll for the auto kill even after all 3 negation markers are used up since the 20 does not require placing a negation marker

The wording is pretty clear about uniques only and you must have a marker on the card to use the ability:

Here is a portion of the ability that applies:

At the end of the turn, if you have at least 1 Negation Marker on this card, you may choose any opponent's unique figure within 6 clear sight spaces of Morsbane.

(emphasis added)

Newb.

[Jason]

"if you have at least 1 Negation Marker on this card, you may choose any opponent's unique figure within 6 clear sight spaces of Morsbane. "

Rolling the 20 for the auto kill does not require a Negation Marker thereby negating the limitation of choosing a Unique if you have atleast 1 Negation Marker left

[netherspirit]

"if you have at least 1 Negation Marker on this card, you may choose any opponent's unique figure within 6 clear sight spaces of Morsbane. "

Rolling the 20 for the auto kill does not require a Negation Marker thereby negating the limitation of choosing a Unique if you have atleast 1 Negation Marker left

Um no. Read it yet again.

You don't even get to roll the die, until all those conditions are met. You do not roll the die if you answer NO to any of these questions.

Is it the end of the turn?
Is there a negation marker on the card?
Is the figure unique?
Is it within 6 clear sight spaces?

It doesn't matter that rolling a 20 doesn't remove a counter....The number you roll is dependant on actually rolling not the other way around....

[Jason]

I disagree with your premise those 4 conditions have to be met. Those are the conditions to be met when trying to Negate not when rolling the for the Auto Kill. It's kinda like Chomp, either you can get 1 effect OR you can try rolling for the other one. If there was some exact rules clarification on this subject feel free to show me.

[LilNewbie]

Actually, I think the burden of proof is on your shoulders. The wording on the card is pretty clear and NS did a good job of pointing out the restrictions and requirements to roll the d20 in the first place. You can't just roll the d20 and hope to get a 20 against any figure. It has to meet the four requirements already discussed before you can even roll the die.

Newb.

[netherspirit]

I disagree with your premise those 4 conditions have to be met. Those are the conditions to be met when trying to Negate not when rolling the for the Auto Kill. It's kinda like Chomp, either you can get 1 effect OR you can try rolling for the other one. If there was some exact rules clarification on this subject feel free to show me.

There doesn't need to be a clarification. Its on the card.

How can you disagree about the conditions needing to be met before you roll? Its on the card before it says, "Roll the 20-sided die." Read the card from top to bottom left to right, not bottom to top, right to left.

What are you talking about on Chomp? This is nothing like Chomp.


Before attacking, choose one medium or small figure adjacent to Grimnak. If the chosen figure is a Squad figure, destroy it. If the chosen figure is a Hero figure, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 16 or higher, destroy the chosen Hero.

You don't get to chose to roll the die. Its dependant on the type of figure you are chomping.

[Pilgrim]

Rod of Negation
Start the game with 3 brown Negation Markers on this card. At the end of the turn, if you have at least 1 Negation Marker on this card, you may choose any opponent's unique figure within 6 clear sight spaces of Morsbane. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 1-15, nothing happens. If you roll a 16-19, place a Negation Marker on the chosen figure's Army Card. All of that figure's special powers are negated for the entire game. If you roll a 20, destroy the chosen figure.

The wording is clear, and nether's interpretation is certain. There is a clear progression:

1. If at end of turn you have marker left, you choose a UNIQUE figure.
2. You roll the dice.
3. Based on the outcome of the die, you take appropriate action (either a) none, b) negate or c) destroy).

The last sentence about destroying the figure is part of a larger flow of thought and context. You simply cannot roll for Morsbane's power against a common, unless you disregard almost the entire wording of the card and take the last sentence out of its interpretive context.

[Pilgrim]

I disagree with your premise those 4 conditions have to be met. Those are the conditions to be met when trying to Negate not when rolling the for the Auto Kill. It's kinda like Chomp, either you can get 1 effect OR you can try rolling for the other one. If there was some exact rules clarification on this subject feel free to show me.

The negate roll (a 16-19 on the d20) and the destory roll (a 20 on the d20) are both types of negation. In the first instance you negate abilities. In the second you negate the figure's very existence.

[netherspirit]

Thanks for the backup Newb and Pilgrim.

[Jason]

You 3 are reading the 20 roll as part of the negation attack whereas it is completely different. When you negate you negate an entire army card when you destroy with the 20 you only destroy the figure instead of the whole card. Hasbro merely combined the 2 powers like they did with Taelord. The fact that one effect requires a negation marker and affects an entire card whereas the other requires no marker and only affects a single figure is evidence the 20 is separate from the 16-19 as opposed to 1 being the function of the other


-As for the Grimnak Discussion:


"You don't get to chose to roll the die. Its dependant on the type of figure you are chomping."

That is not true, if Grimnak is adjacent to BOTH a Medium Hero AND a Medium squad member you can choose whether to Auto Chomp the squad member OR Roll the D20 to try to chomp the Hero

[Pilgrim]

You 3 are reading the 20 roll as part of the negation attack whereas it is completely different. When you negate you negate an entire army card when you destroy with the 20 you only destroy the figure instead of the whole card. Hasbro merely combined the 2 powers like they did with Taelord. The fact that one effect requires a negation marker and affects an entire card whereas the other requires no marker and only affects a single figure is evidence the 20 is separate from the 16-19 as opposed to 1 being the function of the other


I see what your saying - you've articulated it well. I just think you're misreading the card.

There is one power (Rod of Negation) that can manifest itself in one of three ways (no effect, negating the powers of an army card, or destroying the chosen figure). This is clear from the context for three reasons:

1) the string of If statements that follow from the command to roll the die (e.g. if you roll a 1-15, if you roll a 16-29, if you roll a 20). This clearly indicates that these different outcomes are all tied to the rolling of the die for the rod of negation.

2) the numbers clearly indicate that the whole thing hangs together. 1-15 is followed by 16-19 which is followed by 20. This not a different power, but rather a different outcome for the same power, depending on the roll of the one die for the Rod of Negation power.

3) it's all under the heading of one power, called Rod of Negation.

I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, so please don't take offense: but are you just pulling our leg here? Or do you actually think there are two separate powers being discussed? I'm just a little incredulous at the need for this discussion. Like I said: no offense. I often miss the obvious myself.

[netherspirit]

You 3 are reading the 20 roll as part of the negation attack whereas it is completely different. When you negate you negate an entire army card when you destroy with the 20 you only destroy the figure instead of the whole card. Hasbro merely combined the 2 powers like they did with Taelord. The fact that one effect requires a negation marker and affects an entire card whereas the other requires no marker and only affects a single figure is evidence the 20 is separate from the 16-19 as opposed to 1 being the function of the other


-As for the Grimnak Discussion:


"You don't get to chose to roll the die. Its dependant on the type of figure you are chomping."

That is not true, if Grimnak is adjacent to BOTH a Medium Hero AND a Medium squad member you can choose whether to Auto Chomp the squad member OR Roll the D20 to try to chomp the Hero

Your statement about Grimnak is true. But it is different that what is happening on the Morsbane card and is only clouding the issue.

For Morsbane you can not choose to try and roll a 20. You are rolling for the power "Negation Rod." Like Pilgrim said its 1 power with 3 results, all of which are dependant on the conditions set forth in the sentence preceeding, "Roll the 20-sided die." You can not ignore that sentence, not even one part if it. Rolling the die only comes if you make it through the second sentence of the power.

Basically, you can not say that oh I am not rolling to negate I am rolling to destroy, the card isn't worded like that.

[ChaosChild]

Nether, Pilgrim and Newb have got it. You cannot choose what part of the ability to use, you choose which ability to use.

With Grimnak, you don't choose which chomp to use (squad or hero), you choose to chomp or not. If the chosen fig is a hero, then you roll. Having to roll is a penalty for choosing a hero.

Similarly with Morsbane, if you choose to use Rod of Negation and roll a 20 you get a bonus of destroying the fig and not using a marker. You only get the bonus if you use the negation ability.

Hope that helps.

[lilwis]

So I was like :idea:
Then I was like :?:
Then Jason was like :!:
And then Nether was like :roll:
And then Jason was all 8)
And then Nether was all :poorpost:
And then LilNewb was all :headshake:
And then Jason was like :!: :!: :frustrated:
And then Nether was like :brickwall:
And then Pilgrim was all :wtf: :arrow: :screwy:
So Nether was then :shrug:
And then Jason was all :grumble: :idea:
And so Pilgrim was like :| :headshake:
And then Nether was like :passout:
..
and I'm just like :halfstar:
:grouphug:

[netherspirit]

haha. I think that just about covers it lilwis.

[LilNewbie]

LOL!

Great post, lilwis!

Like :headbang: :rimshot: :rock: :headbang:
:bowdown: :headbang: :headbang: :bowdown: :headbang: :headbang: :bowdown:


Newb.

(That means you rock!!)

[Oogie_Da_Bruce]

So I was like :idea:
Then I was like :?:
Then Jason was like :!:
And then Nether was like :roll:
And then Jason was all 8)
And then Nether was all :poorpost:
And then LilNewb was all :headshake:
And then Jason was like :!: :!: :frustrated:
And then Nether was like :brickwall:
And then Pilgrim was all :wtf: :arrow: :screwy:
So Nether was then :shrug:
And then Jason was all :grumble: :idea:
And so Pilgrim was like :| :headshake:
And then Nether was like :passout:
..
and I'm just like :halfstar:
:grouphug:

Possibly one of the greatest posts ever!!!

I was like :rofl:

[Jason]

That is a pretty funny post

[Pilgrim]

Holy crap was that funny. TRULY an all-time brilliant post.

[Revdyer]

Lilwis' reply is Morgan Web good.

[Rÿchean]

good times lilwis...

Thanks!!!

:-D

[ReverendBayes]

Great post lilwis, very funny!

And nice effort, Jason, but I'm right there with Nether and company. They are correct.

[SyvarrisX]

:rofl:

Love it!

-Syv

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

So I was like :idea:
Then I was like :?:
Then Jason was like :!:
And then Nether was like :roll:
And then Jason was all 8)
And then Nether was all :poorpost:
And then LilNewb was all :headshake:
And then Jason was like :!: :!: :frustrated:
And then Nether was like :brickwall:
And then Pilgrim was all :wtf: :arrow: :screwy:
So Nether was then :shrug:
And then Jason was all :grumble: :idea:
And so Pilgrim was like :| :headshake:
And then Nether was like :passout:
..
and I'm just like :halfstar:
:grouphug:

HELLA FUNNY.

[jcb231]

Lilwis' reply is Morgan Web good.

Sigh...Morgan Webb.

Good to see someone else has heard of my obscure cable channel joy.

Her "Morgan Minutes" during the E3 coverage were way too short. :-P

[Oprime]

All I can picture is NS, Newb, Pilgrim, and Jason having this argument over an acctual game.

Then..."So ya anyway,Im going to attack your Morsbane with my Microcorp"