Heroscape Genres in the Age of Fanscape (C3V and SoV incl.) [Archive]

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1Mmirg

July 24th, 2011, 04:48 PM

cmgames

July 24th, 2011, 05:09 PM

I don't know about your original divisions. Many of the things you group under "Fantasy" I would put under a different category "Mythic" (Sudema, Gurei-Oni, etc.). Dragons could fit in this category or could remain in the "Fantasy" - pure judgment call there. Looking forward to following this thread as it develops.

~Z

1Mmirg

July 24th, 2011, 05:25 PM

Thanks for your comments, cmgames. My goal is to locate things under major genre divisions (macro-genres, you might say). Myth is a form of Fantasy and is distinct from figures that have either an otherworldly (space, aliens, etc.) or a historical origin.

I agree that there are lots of great ways to further divide the units (and some certainly cross over a bit--Finn, the vikings, the knights, etc. are all comfortable in a Fantasy setting, but these units are specifically from "Earth's" history). My goal was to work with the major genres, just to get a general sense of the representations that Scape was dealing with--just how much robots and aliens was there in the "Battle for All Time"? :)

There was a time when the numbers were a lot closer, but as you can see, Fantasy has had a steadily increasing impact in Heroscape.

johnny139

July 24th, 2011, 05:29 PM

For obvious reason, with D&D and all that. One of the big things I'm looking forward to with C3V and all that is a new influx of Sci-Fi; there's no shortage of space-themed miniature games out there.

Unfortunately, I predict historical units will still be thin on the ground.

Taeblewalker

July 24th, 2011, 06:07 PM

I would like to see us make cavemen and perhaps the dreadgul Vikings. We just need to find some reliable sources for appropriate minis.

cmgames

July 24th, 2011, 08:31 PM

And of course I've been hearing rallying cries for Pirates for years now.

~Z

1Mmirg

July 25th, 2011, 07:22 PM

It's funny there was a time when sci-fi was the least developed part of Scape by a margin. Now historical is the one that may have the hardest time in the age of Fanscape. Though there are a lot of options, just hard to find minis that will work well within Fanscape's desired parameters--i.e. availability, cost, and pre-painted where possible.

I've long asked for Aztecs, pygmies, Zulus, and native warriors from a range of cultures and areas. So much possible there, if we can find minis that will work.

(My wife, just today--true story--mentioned bison-riding Native Americans. Man, I wish...)

Dad_Scaper

July 25th, 2011, 08:38 PM

Unfortunately, I predict historical units will still be thin on the ground.

Unfortunately, indeed. Maybe Filthy's Priscus.2, from the SoV, will be one eligible figure?

It's unfortunate, as you say, johnny139.

Xotli

July 26th, 2011, 05:21 AM

I'm glad you've brought this up again, because I always wanted to respond to your original post and I just never found the time. And I don't have as much time now as I'd like, but perhaps I can get a start on it.

I too disagree somewhat with the divisions you've chosen. (Although personally I think lumping mythological creatures under fantasy is fine.) When I describe the genre blender approach of 'Scape to my friends, I generally use 6 genres: historical, fantasy, sci-fi, horror, cinematic, and comic book (i.e. the Marvel set). I like "cinematic" as a separate genre because it neatly covers things like the monks and the ninjas (who are definitely not anything like historical monks and ninjas: they're obviously inspired by Hong Kong cinema), James Murphy (who is obviously Indiana Jones), the KMA (who are obviously (at least to me) agents from The Matrix), etc.

But to a certain extent, that's all semantics. We can all choose our own divisions and it's whatever works for us. Except. :)

Except that your conclusion from your divisions are that there are too many fantasy figures and not enough of the others. Which seems a little unfair. It's like you're saying "I'm lumping all these things under fantasy, and now look how many fantasy figures there are!" Well, of course there are more fantasy figures than anything else in your breakdown, because your definitions for historical and sci-fi are more restrictive than your definition of fantasy. So that seems a little unfair to me.

Obviously you can divide things up any way you like, and I hope you know that I respect the hell out of you and don't mean to offend in any way. I just feel that, by using the breakdown to discuss which genres aren't getting enough love, you force the numbers into supporting the conclusions you want to draw, and that seems too arbitrary for my tastes.

Just my :2cents:, as always.

1Mmirg

July 26th, 2011, 11:50 AM

Thanks, Xotli, for sharing your thoughts. Fwiw, I actually started off looking for very different things (I was most interested in getting a sense of how the waves were adding to different elements of the game), but what I saw (and yes that's the point, it's what I saw so it is strongly filtered through my perspective, no question) after working on this for a while was a preponderance of fantasy figures.

I would love to also see other people work with the figures in their own ways. I would love to look at their concepts and breakdowns.

Also fwiw, the set factor that I use to help distinguish my choices is the home planet of the unit. I think it is one of the only markers that we have in the units themselves that helps us get a sense of the origin of the unit in the eyes of the designers.

It has it's own issues, but it helps to at least show that the designers felt that the vipers they were releasing were from the same world as the g-nators and marro. In the same way, the monks they chose to release were specifically from Earth, not some fantasy world. Sure, they are not strictly historical. No question about that. But they are "historical" to the Earth of Scape, to Scape's concept of Earth.

If they had chosen to have mythological creatures with an origin on Earth, then I would have been in a different position, but instead they grouped them in with other Fantasy creatures and peoples from Feylund or Valhalla, etc.

Certainly one of the coolest things about Scape is the way unit are mutli-referencing. The Krav have all kinds of excellent points of reference, the MIB certainly among them. And as players we can easily (and most players do) just ignore the origins of the units within Scape and make them match their own worlds and games. The vipers can easily be played within a dungeon scenario as evil, fantasy snake creatures. What I wanted to look at was the way the designers seemed (yup, seemed) to be grouping the units in their own conceptions of them.

Jeabird

July 26th, 2011, 05:24 PM

In the break down it seems you have Isamu as a Sci-Fi unit and not a historical one.

1Mmirg

July 26th, 2011, 05:37 PM

Yes, Isamu comes from the future (Carr's time of Earth), so is technically sci-fi in my breakdown (I think it was Bats who reminded me of this, since I had him as Historical in the first version of this).

Isamu is definitely a unit that has room for crossover, but as given to us by the designers, he's more scfi-fi than not. (It is odd having him in sci-fi, to me, but that's where he fits based on my own rules, rather than perhaps my perceptions.)

Prometheus

July 26th, 2011, 10:16 PM

I'm not sure the Marro can so easily be classified as Sci-fi. I mean, they have a witch! more like Sci-Fi/Fantasy.

Jeabird

July 29th, 2011, 12:21 AM

Well then I stand corrected. And this is @Prometheus, in the Dune books they had witches too, so I could see the Marro like that maybe.

1Mmirg

July 29th, 2011, 11:15 AM

Yes, I don't think being a witch means being fantasy-based necessarily. Sure, it can, but it doesn't have to. And all the figures blur lines. Dead Eye is mostly a historical figure, but he has a magic rifle (Ullar Enhanced). Same thing for Finn--an Earth-born Viking, who now has a magic sword in Valhalla.

The Valhalla world (and Scape in general) is more Fantasy than anything else and that Fantasy leaks into a lot of the units and their origins, etc. But the Marro are genetic-blending "aliens" with tech weapons and mental powers. Sure, mental powers can looks like magic and aliens who encounter magic artifacts can wield magic powers, but at the core of the concept of the Marro are sci-fi "aliens," from what I see.

Tiranx

November 20th, 2012, 01:47 AM

It has been a really long time since I have looked through this thread. There are a lot of new figures that need to be added into your groupings. In looking at the Public Minatre Information thread for the C3V it is fun to notice the historical unit tha are comming down the pipe line.

Hive Lord 1233

November 20th, 2012, 11:15 PM