Starting Zone Hexes - Limit ( yes / no & how? )

[Codeman]

My goal here is to start a debate, discussion, or maybe ridicule. I’m not necessarily proposing to come up with any standard or official ruling. I’m just trying to gather people’s thoughts on limiting starting zones, especially in tournaments.

I took it upon myself to limit the Tree Town Tournament starting zones to 20 / 21 hexes using a 490-point army. I see the DFW group did something similar by limited there starting zones to 24 with only a 400-point army.

The obvious reason for doing so is to keep someone from bring 15 sets (60 blade gruts) into a tournament that is hosting a 600-point army. The other benefit would to limit the number of figures on the board so most people could finish a game with in an hour ( for tournament purposes ). Lastly it adds more strategy to the game.

First I will say that I am in favor of limiting starting zones as I think it adds another element of strategy …. make the best army for the points that also has to fit on to the board.
So to start out the debate I’m throwing out the idea that if you take how ever many point army you want to play and divided that by 20.5 to give you the number of starting zone hexes ( this is kind of a compromise of the TTO & DFW tourney ) I also did not round up.

Example 350 point army / 20.5 would be 17 hexes

Using the 20.5 factor here’s how it would look:

19 hexes = 390 – 405 point army
20 hexes = 410 –430 point army
21 hexes = 435 – 450 point army
22 hexes = 455 – 470 point army
23 hexes = 475 – 490 point army
24 hexes = 495 – 510 point army
25 hexes = 515 – 530 point army
26 hexes = 535 – 550 point army
and so on… 600 point would be 29 hexes

Do you like the concept … if so do you like this ratio…. Is there a better ratio?

[LilNewbie]

6 (or 7) Hexes per a full 100 points seems reasonable to me. It allows squads but keeps swarms under control and it's easy to figure.

Newb.

[ninthdoc]

I like the 24 to 400 rule. I'd like to see it go to no more than 28 for a 500 or 600 point army.

[auralerogeny]

Personally, I do like this ratio. I've never thought of using a ratio to see what would be an appropriate starting zone size for a given point army. Their has been some discussion over starting zones in this thread:

HS Battlegrounds Discussion Thread (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=2822)

Some of the results from your ratio fall nearly perfectly in line with what has been discussed within the above thread.

Good job, I think that I may use this ratio in the future.

[LilNewbie]

Um..which ratio?

Newb.

[Aranas]

x army points / 20.5 = nbr hex

[kenjib]

I must admit to being slightly bummed that I can't field a 3xrats 4xmass army. :D

[CupidsArt]

Well I came across this prob with my:

2x Glad
2x Blast
3x Rats

28 hexes worth of figs for 400 points, yeah you can build an army like that but honestly should you. Hendal gave me a hand by giving everyone permission for larger 400 point armies, I thought it was GREAT!

Looking back now I can see where it would cause a prob, I like the idea of limitations on hex use for army sizes and I think 24hex/400pts is good, close to the line, but good.

the x/20.5 seems like it would work out great. A great army can still be built with only 21 hexes and as armies get larger around here the more often Larger figures get used, so a 48hex/800pts doesn't really happen that much.

Sure for fun games using a million rats would be fun for you, but I see the opponent getting angry with your lack of creativity or constantly figting the same strategy every, single, turn......

[CornPuff]

hehe, there is quite a bit of discussion about this on the battlegrounds thread.

Should start zone sizes be determined by points or by map?

Would any tournament organizer ever tell the participants that they can only use 20 hexes as their start, even though a map has 24 hexes? It seems event organizers are willing to do the opposite (adding tiles).

Would it be fun to play a 600 point game with 18 hex start zones? Would it be too limiting, or would it just force you to adjust your draft style? And of course, would it speed up the game?

[Bixby]

Not that my comment will bear any value to tournament play, but when we make our large maps and a player has more figs than the starting zone will allow the extra figs do not begin the game on the board. At the end of every turn, figs are added to any vacant starting zone spaces. It has worked well the few times this has occurred. Keep in mind we play very large maps and opponents rarely get to another players starting zone very quickly.

[Riggler]

This has been talked to death for the last two weeks in the thread on HS Battlegrounds discussion thread in Maps and Scenerios Forum. Quite a bit of analysis has already been done there.

[Snotwalker 8000]

Not that my comment will bear any value to tournament play, but when we make our large maps and a player has more figs than the starting zone will allow the extra figs do not begin the game on the board. At the end of every turn, figs are added to any vacant starting zone spaces. It has worked well the few times this has occurred. Keep in mind we play very large maps and opponents rarely get to another players starting zone very quickly.

But if you're playing the AE, and they come out in round 1, those opponent's figures that aren't yet on the board are now perfectly protected and safe from your grenade attack... could lead to probs...

[Tiberius]

I can honestly say that we have never worried about starting zones at my house, I always considered that a little anal but after seeing them at work at the tournament, they do seem to be a good thing. No one gets the tactical advantage from the get go and it limits your army selection to something within reason.

[Bixby]

But if you're playing the AE, and they come out in round 1, those opponent's figures that aren't yet on the board are now perfectly protected and safe from your grenade attack... could lead to probs...

That be a whole lot of "ifs". :) You are technically correct, but it is a rare occurence. Our starting zones are quite large so the AE would have a whole lot of victims as it is, the few that were not on the board would be but mere gravy to a well timed grenade raid.

[Oprime]

I'll chime in

I think limiting start zones limits the double space squads like the Mardens or the stalkers.

In our RI tourny I fielded 3x rats 2x mardens and 2x omicrons= 30 spaces but = only 24 characters

I understand the limiting of "swarm" army characters, but those are generaly single based.

In short I dont have a problem with a larger starting zone like 30 which we used at the RI tourny.

[Riggler]

This post comes from the Maps and Scenerios forum on battlefield discussions. It was posted about 2-3 weeks ago.

And I think its a good indication of what designers thought in the early scenerios is this. A points per starting spot on official maps/scenerios

MAP/SCENERIO ________Starting Spaces_____Army Points____Space/pts
Table of Giants/Clash Front______ 24____________ 400________16.67
Forsaken Waters/Winter Hold_____18____________ 300________16.67
*Durgeth Swamp/Tempests______16 ____________400________25.00
**Trollsford Swamp/Toxic Mist____22 (w/ruin) _____400________18.18
____________________________24 (no ruin) _____400________16.67
Trollsford Swamp/Desp. Rescue__28 (defener)_____500________17.87
___________________________ 24 (attacker)____ 400_______16.67
Migol's Tomb/ Mimring's Fortress__16 (attackers)___ 200________12.50
____________________________23 (w/Mimring)___400________17.39
Migol's Tomb/Take Barrens ______24 ____________ 400________16.67
Wolf Swamp Road/Prison exch____29_____________520________17.93

* Unique Hero required to do something may skew this this result
** This may indicate that a lower number of starting zone can be a balancing factor on a map. The lower #'d starting zone side has a small ruin in the start zone and is closer to a Glyph of Valda, and has 2 hexes of higher ground comparred to opponent.

I didn't include maps with the terrain expansions because of the uniqueness, non-kill'em all straight up scenerios. If you eliminate the highest and lowest Pts/per start spot from the above analysis (the 12.50 and 25), which is common in statistical analysis, you find the range rests between 16.67 and 18.18.

What does this mean for 400 pt army start zones? 22-24

I know I have the unpopular opinion that I like 500 pt. armies. I'd say the start zones wouldn't need to be modified from this number for a 500 pt. game on a map for two reasons. It further discourages Squadscape, and we've seen maps and scenerios that use the same start zones for 400 pt armies when a one-on-one map is converted to a 2-on-2 map and the total army cost on each side equals 500.

Now, what is most common? 16.67 points per space. Or Divide the army cost by 16.67 to determine the number of starting spots. For 400 pt army this is 24.

[Codeman]

This has been talked to death for the last two weeks in the thread on HS Battlegrounds discussion thread in Maps and Scenerios Forum. Quite a bit of analysis has already been done there.

Sorry, I almost did a search ( should have known better ) but I thought I was reading these threads fairly thoroughly and didn't see anything about it. We had some discussion on our tourney thread, and I wanted peoples thoughts. I will go over an check out the Maps & Sceneriors and see which way people are leaning and if they like it limited ( which I think we should ) see if they have a soultion. I don't like to invent anything that has already been thought out and if it works for others I will try it.

If this thread needs merged ..... I apologize.

[CornPuff]

no merging! its nice to see this topic get some air!

[Codeman]

Yes Cornpuff I agree.

I did read the other thread and it encompasses a lot more than starting zones. Starting zones was just a side topic – although interesting. The most interesting item I noticed and Riggler post it above ( I can’t believe I didn’t start with the Hasbro maps and calculate backwards ). Instead of 20.5 may the number should be 17. What I do believe is one size starting zone can’t accommodate (well) all size armies. I think 24 hexes are generous for a 400-point army, however that is close to what Hasbro has blessed … intentionally or unintentionally. I still would like to keep some discussion going on this. In the long run we are all going to do as we see fit, unless Hasbro would come out with an official guideline.

[CornPuff]

My ideal is just to see interesting tournament play that 'levels the playing field' for all the figures.

Sure, Jotun hasn't been the best figure in a tourney yet. One way to make Jotun more powerful is to limit start zones. Another way is to make it harder to get ranged high ground on Jotun. Another way is to put molten lava on your map so that Jotun can slam dunk other heroes. Another way is to not have an attack glyph on your map that favors squadscape and normal attacks.

I'm very loath to take start zones out of a mapmakers toolbox, as the other options may be more difficult to implement.

Like any new expansion, its interesting to see how the flagbearers affect army choice. It seems the FBs will lower the footprint of most armies, seeing as how they are 100+ points and one hex, even if the favor squad figures.

If I could figure out how to make a map that favors the roman archers, I would....

[Codeman]

If I could figure out how to make a map that favors the roman archers, I would....

Simple just make a map with a large hill in the center & put your starting zones on top of the hill :lol:

[CornPuff]

the problem with the archers is that their special attack doesn't recieve any bonus from being on a hill. maybe if you had three start hexes, a 55 point limit, and one start zone was an island surrounded by coencentric moats... and your opponent wasn't allowed to draft snakes. And the opponents have to start within the range of the archers, so guilty won't destroy them.

crap. It still doesnt work.. :-P

[jumpman_14]

Personally, I do like this ratio. I've never thought of using a ratio to see what would be an appropriate starting zone size for a given point army. Their has been some discussion over starting zones in this thread:

HS Battlegrounds Discussion Thread (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=2822)

Some of the results from your ratio fall nearly perfectly in line with what has been discussed within the above thread.

Good job, I think that I may use this ratio in the future.
Me too.

[jumpman_14]

It worked fine for me. I was at the TTO tournament. Sorry I forgot to write that.

[gamjuven]

I personally try to make maps for 1 on 1 500 pt armies to always have a 24 hex starting zone, seems to be fair

[Codeman]

I personally try to make maps for 1 on 1 500 pt armies to always have a 24 hex starting zone, seems to be fair

That could be considered fair, but don’t you think you could use the word “boring” as well? Part of the fun is building the army for the maps and have to deal with different point values. Always having 500 points would limit you, and keep you from this strategic part of the game. In our Iowa & Minnesota tournaments everyone has always had a different point value army as well as starting zone.

Example: Next weekends tournament in Austin, MN the point total is 560 with only a 24 starting hexes. The last tournament in Iowa ( Tree Town Open ) was 490 point with 21 hex starting zones. Changing these variables keep the game fresh.

It's ok to make maps with 24 starting zone.... TD will adjust the zones for their tournments if need be.