C3G Design - Kree Scout (VOTE for Playtesting!)

[quozl]

The Book of Kree Scout

C3G MARVEL

http://dailypop.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/captain-marvel.jpg

Link To Possible Comic Art (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1298734&postcount=10)

Link To Figure Picture (http://www.trollandtoad.com/p112378.html)

The figures used for this unit is a Heroclix figure from the Critical Mass set.
Its model numbers and name are #007-009 / Kree Warrior.

NAME = KREE SCOUT (Common Hero)
SECRET IDENTITY = NONE

SPECIES = KREE
UNIQUENESS = COMMON Hero
CLASS = SCOUT
PERSONALITY = DISCIPLINED
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 1
MOVE = 6
RANGE = 7
ATTACK = 3
DEFENSE = 4
POINTS = 30

KREE HERO BONDING
After revealing an Order Marker on a Kree Scout Army Card and taking that Kree Scout's turn, you may take a turn with one other Kree Hero you control.

ADVANCED KREE TECHNOLOGY
Instead of moving normally, you may choose one unengaged Kree Scout you control. Immediately place up to two unengaged Kree Heroes you control adjacent to the chosen Kree Scout. The Kree Hero placed using Advanced Kree Technology must be placed so it is not engaged.

Character Bio – The Kree Empire extends across almost a thousand worlds in the northwestern lobe of the Greater Magellanic Cloud. They are the only race in the galaxy to possess the Omni-Wave Projector technology, a device which can enable communication across hyperspace as well as be used in an offensive capacity as a weapon. They also possess cloaking technology, which they call the 'aura of negativity'.
_________________________________________________________________

-Rulings and Clarifications-
N/A_________________________________________________________________

-Combinations and Synergies-

Synergy Benefits Received

Classic:
N/AMarvel:
N/AC3G:
N/ASynergy Benefits Offered

Classic:
Having a Disciplined personality, Kree Soldiers may aid the Sacred Band (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8690) with their DISCIPLINED ARMY DEFENSE BONUS.Marvel:
N/AC3G:
N/A_________________________________________________________________

-Strategy, Tactics and Tips-
N/A
-Heroscapers Community Contributions-


Initial Playtest: Hahma (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1315286&postcount=113)
Second Playtest:
Third Playtest :

[quozl]

* I'm going to need mini pics for these guys and a better comic pic too.

1/16 - Revised Advanced Kree Technology to begin with "After revealing an Order Maker on this card and instead of moving normally,"

1/15 - Changed from Soldiers to Warriors

1/8 - Revised wording for Collective Consciousness

12/23 - Changed from this:

CLOAKING TECHNOLOGY
Before moving, you may choose one Kree Soldier you control. Immediately place up to 3 other unengaged Kree Soldiers you control on any empty space within 3 clear sight spaces of the chosen Kree Soldier.

to ADVANCED KREE TECHNOLOGY and changed the Points from 110 to 90.

[tcglkn]

Like this write up as is. :thumbsup: Good to see a Public Design Squad finally. :)

[johnny139]

Two problems I have. I think that 7 Range + 6 Move is a bit too large a threat range, personally. And for Cloaking Device... I'm not really picking up on the flavor for that. There's no real cloaking being done; if anything, it's more like teleportation.

Otherwise, looks pretty sweet.

[Hidicul]

I have to agree that a move 6 with a range 7 is to big of a threat range. As far as the cloaking goes, that says to me a way of having no hit zones. I'll think on that and see what pops into my head.

[quozl]

In classic scape, both Agent Skahen and the Krav Maga have 7 Range + 6 Move. The Gorillanators have 7 Move + 6 Range.

The cloaking does take a bit of imagination. Do you have any alternative methods for simulating cloaking technology that would be appropriate here?

[tcglkn]

I get the theme of the cloaking, basically they are invisible as they move so it looks like they appear there. Fun ability. Move 6 with Range 7 works on the Krav and MarvelScape is a different beast and I think it will be fine.

Any reason we can't use the 3 different colored Kree here to diversify the squad?

[IAmBatman]

I'm fine with the big threat range. Their low attack should keep them in check. And they only have three figures per squad.
The comic art here is too small and only features a single Kree. Hopefully we as a group can find better.

CLOAKING TECHNOLOGY
Before moving, you may immediately choose one Kree Soldier you control and immediately place up to 3 other unengaged Kree Soldiers you control on any empty space within 3 clear sight spaces of the chosen Kree Soldier.

[quozl]

Any reason we can't use the 3 different colored Kree here to diversify the squad?

Quite possible. However, if there are plans for Kree Sergeants or other generic leaders, the other colors might be good for them. Heroes, any input into that?

[quozl]

Other possible comic pics:

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/9241/791922-001.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/27967/695455-you_belong.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/27967/708402-wave_of_annihilation_2.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/1/13751/441249-kree.jpg

[Hahma]

Two problems I have. I think that 7 Range + 6 Move is a bit too large a threat range, personally. And for Cloaking Device... I'm not really picking up on the flavor for that. There's no real cloaking being done; if anything, it's more like teleportation.

Otherwise, looks pretty sweet.

Yeah, that was the first thing that came to mind for me as it seemed like teleporting them. I mean if you have Angel or Theracus Carry a Kree over a castle wall and then poof, 3 more Kree suddenly arrive and on different levels of the Castle/Fortress/Building as long as they are within 3 CSS of the one Kree. I mean you can currently use it to move 3 Kree that might be 20 spaces away and 20 levels lower with no real means of getting to that spot if they had to move normally to get there.

Perhaps the chosen figures should have to be within 6 - 10 spaces and a certain number of levels higher or lower to the one Kree when he "summons" them adjacent to him. Maybe there could be a limit of how much higher or lower they can be placed within 3 CSS of him? I'll try to come up with something.

I get the theme of the cloaking, basically they are invisible as they move so it looks like they appear there. Fun ability. Move 6 with Range 7 works on the Krav and MarvelScape is a different beast and I think it will be fine.

Any reason we can't use the 3 different colored Kree here to diversify the squad?

Yeah, because I have 9 of the same color :p

But mostly because the Green one only comes up to the shoulder of the Purple guys (that I have and are the same size as a Beat Cop)

[IAmBatman]

A3n would have to say for sure, but I think the second picture you posted might be usable (with a lot of photoshopping things out), quozl.
The other two look to be too small.

[quozl]

Yeah, that was the first thing that came to mind for me as it seemed like teleporting them. I mean if you have Angel or Theracus Carry a Kree over a castle wall and then poof, 3 more Kree suddenly arrive and on different levels of the Castle/Fortress/Building as long as they are within 3 CSS of the one Kree. I mean you can currently use it to move 3 Kree that might be 20 spaces away and 20 levels lower with no real means of getting to that spot if they had to move normally to get there.

Perhaps the chosen figures should have to be within 6 - 10 spaces and a certain number of levels higher or lower to the one Kree when he "summons" them adjacent to him. Maybe there could be a limit of how much higher or lower they can be placed within 3 CSS of him? I'll try to come up with something.

The cloaking is pretty powerful as written especially if one is carried somewhere.

How about this?

CLOAKING TECHNOLOGY
Before moving, you may choose one Kree Soldier you control. Immediately place up to 3 other unengaged Kree Soldiers you control that are within clear sight of the chosen figure and whose bases are no more than 6 levels above the chosen figure's height or 6 levels below the chosen figure's base on any empty space within 3 clear sight spaces of the chosen Kree Soldier.

It's really wordy. I don't know if it's worth it.

[Hahma]

How about a different direction with this?

CLOAKING TECHNOLOGY
Until a Kree Soldier you control attacks an opponent's figure this round, Kree Soldiers you control cannot be attacked by a figure that is not adjacent, they may move through all figures and are never attacked when leaving an engagement.

[tcglkn]

How about a different direction with this?

CLOAKING TECHNOLOGY
Until a Kree Soldier you control attacks an opponent's figure this round, Kree Soldiers you control cannot be attacked by a figure that is not adjacent, they may move through all figures and are never attacked when leaving an engagement.

Or you could do something combining Disengage with Evasive (Extra defense at range).


Yeah, because I have 9 of the same color :p

But mostly because the Green one only comes up to the shoulder of the Purple guys (that I have and are the same size as a Beat Cop)

This is the one he is using (http://www.trollandtoad.com/p150703.html). But why can't we use this blue one (http://www.trollandtoad.com/p150704.html) and this black one (http://www.trollandtoad.com/p150702.html) as well and have a squad of 3 different colors?

They are the same sculpt but they are different colors.

[Margloth]

LIFE = 1
MOVE = 6
RANGE = 7
ATTACK = 3
DEFENSE = 4
POINTS = 110

COLLECTIVE CONSCIOUSNESS
For each destroyed Kree Soldier on this card, add 1 to your initiative roll up to a maximum of +5.

CLOAKING TECHNOLOGY
Before moving, you may choose one Kree Soldier you control. Immediately place up to 3 other unengaged Kree Soldiers you control on any empty space within 3 clear sight spaces of the chosen Kree Soldier.



First off, w00t! for a public squad, a non-human squad, and for the general direction! I bought a bunch of Kree as soon as I saw this design being mentioned. Very excited for these!

Second, I think the stats are fine. As Quozl mentioned, there are comparable stats in classic 'Scape and I think the point cost more than covers it here. Also, Kree are supposed to be at a general physical and technological advantage than normal humans, right? So stats are good imho.

Fourth: where you refer to destroyed Kree on the card, is there any actual rule that you have to put destroyed figs on their Army Card? I know most of us do, but is it official? If it's not, I think this needs to be re-worded.

Fifth: I'm assuming you'd have to attack with the 3 placed Kree, right? I'd like to see this be worded the 3 placed or chosen Kree to give it more of an ambush feel.

Just my 2 cents.

[Hahma]

How about a different direction with this?

CLOAKING TECHNOLOGY
Until a Kree Soldier you control attacks an opponent's figure this round, Kree Soldiers you control cannot be attacked by a figure that is not adjacent, they may move through all figures and are never attacked when leaving an engagement.

Or you could do something combining Disengage with Evasive (Extra defense at range).


Yeah, because I have 9 of the same color :p

But mostly because the Green one only comes up to the shoulder of the Purple guys (that I have and are the same size as a Beat Cop)

This is the one he is using (http://www.trollandtoad.com/p150703.html). But why can't we use this blue one (http://www.trollandtoad.com/p150704.html) and this black one (http://www.trollandtoad.com/p150702.html) as well and have a squad of 3 different colors?

They are the same sculpt but they are different colors.


Well it doesn't matter to me all that much except the colored ones are a bit smaller. I ordered 9 of the normal sized ones and 1 of the green ones just for the heck of it in case there was a Kree leader type designed. Unfortunately, I was pretty disappointed in the smaller scale. So regardless of which ones we use for the card, I'm using the ones I have. I understand the interest in different colored ones for the card as it would be visually cool, but seeing the little midgets running around the battlefield would be the opposite of the visually cool card IMO. Heroclix dropped the ball on this one as I think they should have made these guys bigger. I know they are kind of squatting a little, but when you see them in person, they just look small regardless.


http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k273/hahma/Kree/Kree001.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k273/hahma/Kree/Kree002.jpg

[tcglkn]

Well currently the first post is using the Black ones. I have the 6 or 9 Green ones (can't remember now) that I would be fine repainting Black. I would rather see multiple colors than all the same sculpt. I mean we have the option, lets make it look better.

[Hahma]

If we went that direction with the multiple colored ones, I would like to have a disclaimer in the Books Of that lets people know that they are smaller scale than other figures. People might get p!ssed if they ordered a bunch of them based on the card and then found out that they were midget sized.

Also, another thing to consider is whether or not it's thematic to have these guys running around with different colors in a squad. I mean aren't the different colors supposed to represent different ranks? If these guys are supposed to be your grunt type soldiers, then they'd likely be the same or similar rank.

Purple = Private
Brown = Lieutenant
Green = Captain
Orange = Major
Blue = Colonel
Red = General

I don't know enough about these guys to say how they normally are in comics, but being in the Marines for 4 years, I know for sure you don't see Captains, Majors and Colonels running around on the battlefield fighting together in groups.

If anything, they could be some kind of elite special forces unit or something where those ranking officers could fight together, but it would be in small groups only and not en mass as in common soldiers.

[Margloth]

Sounds like Hahma is pulling rank. ;)

[tcglkn]

I don't know enough about them either. I just thought it would be nice to have more variety in the squad. Troll and Toad has them listed as Warrior, Colonel, and Captian, I just thought it was referring to the different experience levels of Clix. :shrug: I totally understand your issue with Captains and Colonels fighting with the same numbers as the warriors.

[IAmBatman]

It just occurred to me that Batman's (http://www.hiddendragon.com/hs_customs/C3G/released/cards/JPG/C3G_Batman-Terry_comic.jpg) Stealth Mode is pretty much a representation of his cloaking technology. So we might possibly go with a squad version of that power. :reapershrug:
Or maybe keep the same power that's up and rename it something like "Teleportation Technology" or "Invasion Technology" or something like that.

[Hahma]

Sounds like Hahma is pulling rank. ;)

I don't know enough about them either. I just thought it would be nice to have more variety in the squad. Troll and Toad has them listed as Warrior, Colonel, and Captian, I just thought it was referring to the different experience levels of Clix. :shrug: I totally understand your issue with Captains and Colonels fighting with the same numbers as the warriors.

Here's a source for some Kree info :)

Kree Encyclopedia (http://www.medinnus.com/kree/kree_watch.html)

[tcglkn]

So I am guessing the black ones are the lowest level soldiers?

[quozl]

How about a different direction with this?

CLOAKING TECHNOLOGY
Until a Kree Soldier you control attacks an opponent's figure this round, Kree Soldiers you control cannot be attacked by a figure that is not adjacent, they may move through all figures and are never attacked when leaving an engagement.

I really want to do something different than that.

[IAmBatman]

I think a simple name change is all you need to keep the current power mechanics, quozl.

[quozl]

I think a simple name change is all you need to keep the current power mechanics, quozl.

Suggested name changes:

KREE INVASION
KREE AMBUSH

Any others along those lines?

[IAmBatman]

Kree Ambush I like. :-D
I think you could also keep the technology wording and go with:

Kree Teleportation Technology
Kree Infiltration Technology
Kree Invasion Technology

[tcglkn]

Teleporting Technology (Don't know if Kree have this but it fits the mechanic the best IMO)
Ambush Technology
Ambush Tactics
Invasion Tactics
Cloaking Advantage
Stealth Advantage
Stealth Ambush

Just to name a few possibilities.

[Hahma]

How about a different direction with this?

CLOAKING TECHNOLOGY
Until a Kree Soldier you control attacks an opponent's figure this round, Kree Soldiers you control cannot be attacked by a figure that is not adjacent, they may move through all figures and are never attacked when leaving an engagement.

I really want to do something different than that.

Yeah, that's cool. But the Cloaking in the title wasn't working for me with the teleportation power.

It seems like just changing the power name is what's going to get the original power to work, so that's cool

[quozl]

I really want to do something different than that.

Yeah, that's cool. But the Cloaking in the title wasn't working for me with the teleportation power.

It seems like just changing the power name is what's going to get the original power to work, so that's cool

You do bring up some great points though that the power may need some limitations. Currently, for example, a Kree soldier could walk up next to the Rocket Launching Platform and then place 3 more Kree Soldiers at the top as long as they're within 3 spaces of the chosen Kree soldier.

I think it at least needs to be limited to clear sight but perhaps more than that.

[Hahma]

I also think that they might end up costing more than 110 since you can often get 3 attacks of 4 with height(or more with extreme height) with the teleported Kree. Not to mention easily being able to teleport adjacent to Cap for attack and defense boost.

[tcglkn]

Maybe require adjacency. May not be quite as fun, but it's still a powerful ability. Being able to bring troops from the rear of your army to the front.

[quozl]

Maybe require adjacency. May not be quite as fun, but it's still a powerful ability. Being able to bring troops from the rear of your army to the front.

Adjacency does solve the extreme height issue. Might be the way to go here.

[Margloth]

If you really want to get the "Cloaked Ambush" theme, maybe something like this (might be a bit wordy, just try and take the seed of the idea):

CLOAKED AMBUSH
After your first Kree Soldier attacks this turn, instead of attacking with the other two Kree Soldiers you moved, you may choose two Kree Soldiers who have not attacked this turn and move them up to 5 spaces each. The chosen Kree Soldiers may then attack. Kree Soldiers moved with Cloaked Ambush never take leaving engagement attacks.

The theme fits a bit more, and makes it feel more like cloaking technology (disengage) rather than teleporting (placing). It also solves all the height/placing issues. Additionally, it gives them a cool "tricky" feel, as the opponent never really knows which Kree will strike. Might be super overpowered though, getting 5+ moves and 6 range (although you still only attack with 3 soldiers).

[quozl]

I think I'm going to go with this:

ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY
Before moving, you may choose one unengaged Kree Soldier you control. Immediately place up to 3 other unengaged Kree Soldiers you control adjacent to the chosen Kree Soldier. All Kree Soldiers placed using Advanced Technology must be placed so they are not engaged.

Limitations:

1) The chosen Kree now has to be unengaged so the opponent can engage a Kree in order to stop it from using Advanced Technology.

2) The placed figures have to be adjacent to the chosen Kree and placed so they are unengaged.

Thoughts?

[Griffin]

I really like the first page. Good work quozl. I would like to see the move come down to 5 though, I just don't remember them running that fast.

[quozl]

I really like the first page. Good work quozl. I would like to see the move come down to 5 though, I just don't remember them running that fast.

I can see that, especially with Advanced Technology.

What do you think of the new version?

[Griffin]

I like the first page. Am I suppose to compare that to something else? What other idea are you considering right now?

[quozl]

I posted the proposed change to the front page for easy accessibility.

[johnny139]

I don't see any reason why you can't warp some engaged Kree away from battle, or why they need to be placed unengaged; I mean, we're still going with a "sneaky tricky" theme, so, it makes sense to me that they could appear and disappear from right under noses.

Also the name is kinda boring. But otherwise, I'm on board.

[ellak96]

Im really liking it. It looks like a blast to play and I look forward to playtesting it.

[Scapemage]

I like the proposed rewording, but I think the collective title for the power should be ADVANCED CLOAKING TECHNOLOGY. :) Fun design.

[NilfheimPwns]

Once you guys decide on figures I'm gonna need to make an order. I also like the taller one from the comparison pic.

[Scapemage]

Once you guys decide on figures I'm gonna need to make an order. I also like the taller one from the comparison pic.
Already decided. See the first post.

[IAmBatman]

The conversation on the figure choice is ongoing, Scapey.

[A3n]

I like this design Quozl :up:.

I like the proposed wording & would prefer Scapemage's suggested title. I personally don't believe they must be unengaged after their movement. Thematically it's seems typical of them to only reveal themselves the second before an attack if at all. & for game mechanics it would be a great strategy to lock a hero down & a real strategy for the opponent to be mindful of how he approaches a Kree Soldier. But having said that there would need to be more of a cost to do that. Not points but something like instead of moving. Now that I think about it you could change it so that it is "instead of moving a Kree Soldier normally you may place him on an empty space adjacent to another unengaged Kree you control."

The conversation on the figure choice is ongoing, Scapey.
I think we need pictures of the choices.

Cheers

[quozl]

My thought on the proposed wording is that in order for them to be cloaked they can't be engaged. Of couse, after being "revealed", they can then move into engagement as it's a "before moving" power.

Here are links to the three figures. I like the black one.

the green one (http://www.trollandtoad.com/p150703.html)
the blue one (http://www.trollandtoad.com/p150704.html)
the black one (http://www.trollandtoad.com/p150702.html)

[Scapemage]

The conversation on the figure choice is ongoing, Scapey.
:oops: haven't read any of the first 3 pages.

I like the black one too. We can use the Captain and Colonel as other units.

[IAmBatman]

The conversation on the figure choice is ongoing, Scapey.
:oops: haven't read any of the first 3 pages.

I like the black one too. We can use the Captain and Colonel as other units.

It's a good rule of thumb to try to make sure you know the answer to a question before trying to answer it. :-P

[ellak96]

I like the black one best, but blue i'm okay with.

[NilfheimPwns]

The conversation on the figure choice is ongoing, Scapey.
:oops: haven't read any of the first 3 pages.

I like the black one too. We can use the Captain and Colonel as other units.

I meant the taller black one from the size comparison pic posted on page 2 or 3.

[Griffin]

CLOAKING TECHNOLOGY
Before moving, you may choose one Kree Soldier you control. Immediately place up to 3 other unengaged Kree Soldiers you control on any empty space within 3 clear sight spaces of the chosen Kree Soldier.

VS

ADVANCED KREE TECHNOLOGY
Before moving, you may choose one unengaged Kree Soldier you control. Immediately place up to 3 other unengaged Kree Soldiers you control adjacent to the chosen Kree Soldier. All Kree Soldiers placed using Advanced Technology must be placed so they are not engaged.



I am good with either direction quozl. What do you prefer?

[quozl]

I prefer the ADVANCED KREE TECHNOLOGY. It feels less like them teleporting around and more like them being cloaked to me. Also, we already have a 110 point squad and this change would bring them to about 90 I think.

[Griffin]

I prefer the ADVANCED KREE TECHNOLOGY. It feels less like them teleporting around and more like them being cloaked to me. Also, we already have a 110 point squad and this change would bring them to about 90 I think.
That makes sense to me. You have my vote.

[quozl]

If everyone is agreed, I think we'll be ready for an initial playtest if anyone has time this holiday weekend.

[johnny139]

"Advanced Kree Tech" has a better ring if you ask me. Or just "Kree Ambush" to err on the simpler side.

[IAmBatman]

There's a long line on that one! :-P (Initial playtests, that is).

[LordEsenwienIV]

How's this for the Comic Art?

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/1/13751/441249-kree.jpg (http://www.comicvine.com/kree/65-7588/all-images/108-196540/starstealthkree5/105-511169/?offset=3)

[Hahma]

There's a long line on that one! :-P (Initial playtests, that is).

Yeah, we have designs ready to do initial in the Sanctum that have been and will be waiting for awhile. I'm the only one doing them for the next couple weeks at least, so I can only do so much.

[LordEsenwienIV]

I also found this for Figures:
http://www.iconusa3.com/online/Images/Marvel_gallery/Supernova/001-003_Kree.jpg

[quozl]

Thanks! The one on the left is my pick.

[ellak96]

Can anybody do an initial playtest? Cause I will tonight if I can.

[IAmBatman]

Initial playtests can only be done by heroes under our bylaws, unfortunately.

[quozl]

Can anybody do an initial playtest? Cause I will tonight if I can.

Anybody can playtest but only a Hero can do an initial playtest that counts for it moving forward in the design process.

If you're up for it though, feel free! I still need to finish my C3V playtest.

[ellak96]

K. I'll playtest and after the initial playtest, I'll put in mine.

[IAmBatman]

Cool. :-) If the design changes any before the playtesting phase, though, we'll need to do extra playtests in that phase to account for the differences.

[Scapemage]

Slight wording modification here, mainly to get this design off of the third page.

COLLECTIVE CONSCIOUSNESS
For each destroyed Kree Soldier on this card, add 1 to your initiative roll up to a maximum of +5 for Collective Consciousness.

Add the green in there. You want them to be able to use initiative glyphs and Mogrimm's Leadership, don't you?

[IAmBatman]

Good call, Scapey.

[quozl]

Added! Thanks scape!

[Hidicul]

Sheesh, we need to get the r Heros FF4 set out so our heros will be available to do the intial playtests ;)

[IAmBatman]

Fan Four set is not the problem. Holidays are.

[Hidicul]

Fan Four set is not the problem. Holidays are.
And here I thought everyone new that Heroscape > life :p Kidding, I know how much the holidays can take out of you. I had 2 christmas dinners on back to back days, and didn't even get anything Scape related :evil:

[SirGalahad]

I've carved some time out for initial playtesting and have one in progress, but would be happy to have this done hopefully before the end of the year.

[Scapemage]

:bump: Sorry if I missed it, but how many figures are in this squad?

[quozl]

Three (3).

[Griffin]

I will be able to get back into playtesting next week, but these are not on my high priority list (sorry), but the design does look pretty amazing and will make a great addition to our game. I think that we may need to end up naming one or two public members around here as initial playtesters to help out a bit.

[IAmBatman]

Not until we can get a private forum for it and let you, Hahma, and I "train them up" a bit. But I think I have at least a couple of good candidates in mind for that type of thing if they're willing, and would be willing to add more.
I'd prefer to wait for that stuff until around February/March, though, for reasons that should be obvious.

[tcglkn]

Don't worry I'm willing. ;) And I'll try to stay out of trouble. :)

[IAmBatman]

Oh, yeah, I suppose we could consider you too. :-P

[tcglkn]

I don't know if you were considering me or not. It was a joke really. I'd love to help out, but I won't be offended if I don't get chosen.

[IAmBatman]

I'd tell you, but that'd be telling. :-P

[Scapemage]

Oh, yeah, I suppose we could consider you too. :-P
We already have a private forum, and we're half behind hte scenes anyways. I'd love to be an initial playtester.

[quozl]

Hey guys, maybe take this to the playtesting thread?

P.S. I'd like in too!

[Scapemage]

Sidekicks, unite!

EDIT: Don't forget the picture!
http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/106/l_1c3043ae46054f188fddf82b35fd4150.jpg

[Griffin]

Hey guys, maybe take this to the playtesting thread?

P.S. I'd like in too!
Sorry, and your right, the conversation doesn't belong here. Thanks for the friendly reminder. :):up:

[Xn F M]

I haven't been following this design too closely (I really don't know much about the Kree) but is there a reason that Collective Consciousness doesn't require an OM to be on the Kree Soldier's card? As far as I know most every other ability in the game that modifies Initiative requires the investment of at least one OM. Considering the number of C3G abilities that key off of initiative (and likely future abilities) it might be worthwhile to build in that limitation.

And I think (technically) as it's currently worded, this ability still works when you don't have any Kree left on the battlefield. That's probably not desirable.

I think it's technically not an appropriate time to propose an ability change, but I think this might be the better way to go with this ability:

COLLECTIVE CONSCIOUSNESS
If there is at least one Order Marker on this card, add 1 to your initiative roll for each destroyed Kree Soldier on this card. You may not add more than 5 to your initiative roll with Collective Consciousness.

[quozl]

Good idea. While I'm at, I'll reword it so it matches the Capuan Gladiators.

COLLECTIVE CONSCIOUSNESS
If there is at least one Order Marker on Kree Soldier Army Cards, you may add 1 to your initaitve roll for every destroyed Kree Soldier on Kree Soldiers's Army Card, up to a maximum of +5 for Collective Consciousness.

[IAmBatman]

Nice change, guys.

[quozl]

Just wanted to bump this up so that initial playtesters can see it in time for this weekend.

[Hahma]

I should be able to start it tomorrow. Can't promise how long it will take, but I'll get it going anyway. :D

[quozl]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Hahma again.

Kings to you, mate!

[Hahma]

I got some HH tests done so far, 2 with 1 squad of Kree, 2 with 2 squads of Kree and 1 so far with 3 squads of Kree. I don't have time to post test sheet at the moment. But for the power check portion at the top, I will post a comment I made.

- POWER CHECK/ Consider the test unit and all existing units and all glyphs to compare to and check for any powers that could be over amplified and break the game. Each power must define when it takes place, who or what it affects, and What are the stipulations on the power if there are any. PASS for C3G(though might consider having OM restriction for Advance Kree Technology) May Fail for those mixing with Classic. Using Kree Soldiers with Marcus can be nasty as he would boost their move to 7 as well as boost their attack to 4 when adjacent to him and have a range of 7. Advanced Kree Technology and increased mobility would make it easier to get Kree adjacent to Marcus for those boosts. Add Raelin and/or Captain America and you get even a nastier boost. IMO since there is no specification of Human Soldiers for Marcus, to avoid the Kree Soldiers from being overpowered in mixing games, perhaps their class gets changed. If Soldier class is kept, the Kree Soldiers might be overpowered and not compatible for mixing with Classic, for if that synergy with Marcus had to be taken into consideration for cost, they could end up over costed for C3G use and much less draftable.

That's not to pick on mixers. Remember, I mix at times for casual games with my twin girls. But because of the design of the Kree with their range, mobility and Advanced Kree Technology (and to a degree initiative boost potential), this can be a significant synergy issue that can make them a lot more powerful for mixers. The powers for the Kree Soldiers are significantly better than Soldiers in Classic. Now if they were made for Classic, then their cost would be raised significantly or their powers would be lessened. But if you do either to them in this case, they would be crappy for their intended use with C3G/superhero units.

I have to head out now, but I wanted to leave that food for thought to see what people think. Personally, I would either try to change the class or just price them based on tests with C3G units and like we've said many a time, understand that they are not specifically designed with Classic mixing in mind and could be overpowered when used as such.

[IAmBatman]

You know where I'm at. I'm in favor of just pricing them for C3G units. If we price them for mixing, that's a fail for me, and I'd hate to see us abandon an appropriate class just because it doesn't work with Valhalla.

[Lord Pyre]

I don't know anything about the Kree, but they could be renamed the Kree Guard. Still some synergy there, but it'd be hardly broken, I think. Warriors would be good, too.

[quozl]

I don't mind changing to Warriors. It doesn't affect C3G units at all and makes a better mixing experience.

[johnny139]

Yeah, no big reason to keep them Soldiers; Warriors works fine, too.

[IAmBatman]

So, just for my own curiosity since the Three Kings of Mixing are weighing in, would you guys pretty much just prefer we avoid Valhalla synergies in the future every time unless they're easily tested?
Basically, should I be making a mental note to avoid the Soldier and Warlord class for all future designs?

[johnny139]

If A) the synergies seem disruptive or B) there's an equally-valid alternative, yeah, I think simply avoiding Classic-heavy classes would be a good plan.

I mean, Captain America is a Soldier, through and through. But stuff like this, where a change is simple, is the easier solution to me.

[Margloth]

I see where you're coming from Bats, but the fact that the figure is actually named Kree Warrior in this case I think negates the argument.

If anything, the figure name / class was incorrect to begin with. Changing here doesn't really affect the original game or your vision for C3G, imho.

EDIT: If this post sounds snarky it's not meant to. Just saying I don't really see a conflict here. There are more important issues we can all fight over! :lol:

[IAmBatman]

I see where you're coming from Bats, but the fact that the figure is actually named Kree Warrior in this case I think negates the argument.

If anything, the figure name / class was incorrect to begin with. Changing here doesn't really affect the original game or your vision for C3G, imho.

EDIT: If this post sounds snarky it's not meant to. Just saying I don't really see a conflict here. There are more important issues we can all fight over! :lol:

No snark at all. I guess my concern is less about the change and more about the trigger for the change, you know?

[Hahma]

I see where you're coming from Bats, but the fact that the figure is actually named Kree Warrior in this case I think negates the argument.

If anything, the figure name / class was incorrect to begin with. Changing here doesn't really affect the original game or your vision for C3G, imho.

EDIT: If this post sounds snarky it's not meant to. Just saying I don't really see a conflict here. There are more important issues we can all fight over! :lol:

No snark at all. I guess my concern is less about the change and more about the trigger for the change, you know?

I know and agree with where you're coming from Bats. Though I just think in this case, the Disciplined Soldier class/personality seemed Valhalla-ish to begin with and we should have axed it earlier. :D

That said, with a Warrior class, we can dictate future synergies by specifying race or personality with Warrior class in a power. So we have control of that. That said, and I don't have anything to do with C3V, but I would very much expect those involved in C3V to NOT worry about mixing Classic and C3G for instances like this with the Kree. If the C3V team come up with a cool power that has synergies with Warriors, then too bad how it affects C3G units. That should not even be a consideration for them. Just my :2cents: regarding that. :D

[Hahma]

By the way....Go Bears! :p

[IAmBatman]

Yep, C3G will not be a consideration at all for C3V, just for the record.
And go Lions! :-P I guess I can cheer for the Bears today, though. I don't really have a dog in any of the fights this weekend.

[Hahma]

Yep, C3G will not be a consideration at all for C3V, just for the record.
And go Lions! :-P I guess I can cheer for the Bears today, though. I don't really have a dog in any of the fights this weekend.

Well if you could cheer for them tomorrow when they play, that would be cool too. :p I just mentioned it here because they play Seattle. :D

[Lord Pyre]

So, just for my own curiosity since the Three Kings of Mixing are weighing in, would you guys pretty much just prefer we avoid Valhalla synergies in the future every time unless they're easily tested?
Basically, should I be making a mental note to avoid the Soldier and Warlord class for all future designs?

Not avoid, no, but if there's something that would be obviously overpowered, then we should take another look at it. Some things are bound to be wonky with synergies once in a while, but as long as it isn't TOO powerful, it should be fine. This seems a bit borderline, but going with warriors is an easy fix, and like Hahma said, we can do more synergies this way!

I'd love for Bucky to have a Soldier Sidekick power, to work with Drake, since that'd be awesome. In that case, it should be tested because the synergies are pretty important. In this case though, the theme doesn't require soldier synergies, so...

[quozl]

So, just for my own curiosity since the Three Kings of Mixing are weighing in, would you guys pretty much just prefer we avoid Valhalla synergies in the future every time unless they're easily tested?
Basically, should I be making a mental note to avoid the Soldier and Warlord class for all future designs?

Unless they're easily tested? Wouldn't they always be? I'm not sure about the qualifier but I definitely don't think they should be avoided. Weird cross-overs is what Heroscape is all about to a lot of people.

[Hahma]

So, just for my own curiosity since the Three Kings of Mixing are weighing in, would you guys pretty much just prefer we avoid Valhalla synergies in the future every time unless they're easily tested?
Basically, should I be making a mental note to avoid the Soldier and Warlord class for all future designs?

Unless they're easily tested? Wouldn't they always be? I'm not sure about the qualifier but I definitely don't think they should be avoided. Weird cross-overs is what Heroscape is all about to a lot of people.



Maybe "easily tested" means that a crossover synergy of a certain magnitude affecting Valhallascape would have to be thoroughly tested with the Valhallascape world. If the Kree were Diciplined Soldiers, tailoring them for mixing use would mean they would have to have extensive testing in many army builds in Valhallascape to balance them so the mixers wouldn't cry foul or broken. For one thing, we are not going to do that kind of extensive testing to make sure C3G units aren't broken in Valhallascape, and for another thing a unit that we would balance in Valhallascape likely wouldn't be balanced in C3G.

Here's the thing, if the Kree were still Soldiers, I'm not going to test them with Classic units. I'm testing them with all C3G units. After initial playtesting and ERB phase, they go out to public playtesting. Now one of the public testers tests Kree Soldiers with Marcus against an all Classic army and totally dominate them, that tester would say that the Kree Soldiers need to cost more because having them with Marcus and Raelin and Captain America totally rocked the world of Q9, Nilfheim and 4th Mass (or something to that effect). If we raised the cost of the Kree based on that, then while they may be more balanced for mixing, they would suck for Superheroscape. That's not what we want, it would be a complete waste of time to intentionally design a unit that was overpriced or not thematic for C3G just to have it balanced for mixing.

Weird crossovers that were/are part of Classic Heroscape were designed and tested for use strictly in the Valhalla world. We all love having robots and knights duking it out. People can still enjoy weird crossovers with C3G units and Classic units but, unlike the "official" Classic units that were intended for use with each other and tested with Classic only units, we can't do that make them balanced in both Classic and G3G. The priority is to make C3G units balanced with C3G units and if they happen to be with Classic, then that's a bonus for sure. :D

This isn't a rant, I'm just analytical and over explain everything. When I'm talking to people and see the glossy look in their eyes, I know that I've explained something too much. :D

[tcglkn]

I agree with Hahma. The C3V doesn't even test against or look at C3G units and our policy is to not. I think the best path to take here is avoid any synergies with ValhallaScape where possible because we don't want things too broken for mixers, but we obviously cannot test everything.

[GreyOwl]

I don't think we need to try and avoid any synergies. We're not going to test them, but we shouldn't limit our creativity just to avoid creating synergies with classic.

[IAmBatman]

So, just for my own curiosity since the Three Kings of Mixing are weighing in, would you guys pretty much just prefer we avoid Valhalla synergies in the future every time unless they're easily tested?
Basically, should I be making a mental note to avoid the Soldier and Warlord class for all future designs?

Unless they're easily tested? Wouldn't they always be? I'm not sure about the qualifier but I definitely don't think they should be avoided. Weird cross-overs is what Heroscape is all about to a lot of people.

Emphasis there should be on "easily," not on "tested." :-)

I don't think we need to try and avoid any synergies. We're not going to test them, but we shouldn't limit our creativity just to avoid creating synergies with classic.

:word: And that's all I wanted to bring up here.
Anyway, for these guys, a shift to Warrior is fine. I just don't want us to start a precedent of creatively "punking out" because of fear of Valhalla synergies that, IMO, we should disregard anyway.

[quozl]

I just don't want us to start a precedent of creatively "punking out" because of fear of Valhalla synergies that, IMO, we should disregard anyway.

I wouldn't say disregard. I would say have lesser regard for.

[Hahma]

C3G PLAY TEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT Kree Soldiers

- THEME TEST/ Check to see if there are any powers or stats on the test unit card that does not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character would and could do. Also consider destructible objects, and whether or not this characters powers should affect them. PASS

- MIRROR TEST/ Check to see if the unit were played against itself, if there would be any loops that would upset the balance of the Game. PASS

- BONDING TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing Bonding abilities to make sure there are no continual Bonding possibilities that do not stop appropriately or do not stop at all. This is to prevent loops in Bonding. PASS

- SYNERGIES TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing synergies to make sure there are no factors that could break the game by making any unit to powerful or too weak. PASS

- POWER CHECK/ Consider the test unit and all existing units and all glyphs to compare to and check for any powers that could be over amplified and break the game. Each power must define when it takes place, who or what it affects, and What are the stipulations on the power if there are any. PASS

- FUN TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play. PASS

- FUN COMPETITIVE TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play against. PASS

- DRAFTING TEST/ Consider whether or not this design is worth drafting.
PASS

- USAGE TEST/ Consider whether or not all of the powers on this card were used or at least usable. PASS

- STRATEGY TEST/ Consider whether or not the design offers any real strategy or interesting tactics to the overall game. PASS (AKT offers some decisions of whether or not to bring more Kree into certain situations. Long ranged squads with such mobility may be good counters units).

- Heavy Hitter or Mid-Level Hero/ Does it pass, Yes or No? What should be the unit's point value? Give a brief summary. .PASS. So far I’m still liking them at 90 points. They played some tough opponents and with the exception of a few tests, performed well. There were a couple tests where not typical circumstances allowed the opponent to win.

TEST 1
Map: . Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh
Units: .Kree x 1 vs. Toad
3 Kree live to win on T3R1. Toad is no match for their mobility and ranged attacks.
.

TEST 2
Map: .Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh
Units:.Kree x 1 vs. Angel
Angel wins with 1 wound on T1R2. His Guardian Angel power totally allowed him to avoid multiple attacks after 1st attack he was able to move out of LOS or range, then come back and attack.
.

TEST 3
Map: .Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh
Units: .Kree x 1 vs. Black Mask
Black Mask gets the win with 3 wounds on T1R2. BM has same defense and better attack at same level. Though, I made the mistake of getting Kree out too far on their first turn and that allowed BM to kill his first one with a 3/2 attack. The next Kree put a 3/0 attack on him for 3 wounds, but then he came back with another 3/2 attack to kill another one. A couple misses for a couple turns and BM won initiative for T2 and killed the last Kree with a 2/1 attack. Not the best play of the Kree here as they were too cocky.
.

TEST 4
Map: .Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh
Units: .Kree x 1 vs. Black Mask (Rematch)
2 Kree live to win on T4R1. This is more of how I would expect a long ranged squad with mobility to perform vs. Black Mask.
.

TEST 5
Map: .Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh
Units: .Kree x 2 vs. Punisher
1 Kree lives to win on T1R2. Kree had a lot of good rolls, despite Punisher having height most of the time. He has 3 attacks with AR and range to match them. I may try a rematch at some point, though as I don’t think I took advantage of their mobility as well as I may have. Still getting used to these guys.
.
TEST 6
Map: .Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh
Units: Kree x 2 vs. Daredevil
DD wins with 2 wounds on T5R3. The only, or main reason that DD won this one is because he had some huge Radar Sense rolls. He avoided 11 attacks due to RS and it even helped him get to same level as Kree. Once DD got engaged, he was able to use multiple attacks with Man Without Fear. With only 4 lives and a single ranged attack, I can see the Kree beating him more times than not as Radar Sense isn’t always this good.

TEST 7
Map: .Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh
Units:Kree x 3 vs. Wolverine
This one was a long match. To my surprise, Wolverine won with 2 wounds on T1R6. The Kree rolled terrible attack dice for the most part and when they rolled good, Wolvie managed to roll spectacular defense with only 4 dice and he never whiffed throughout the entire game which is kind of rare for 4 defense facing as many attacks as he did. So the 1 or 2 wounds per turn that the Kree could put on him were easily healed off. In one round, Wolvie spent 2 turns out of LOS healing and going back for more. I’d suspect that normally, the Kree would have been able to take Wolvie out without too much problem, especially when their mobility and AKT can get them height advantage so easily. Thought the one thing Wolvie was able to do was lower the Kree’s defense to 2 or 3 (if they had height) with his Adamantium Claws.

TEST 8
Map: .Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh
Units:Kree x 3 vs. Deadpool
Now the way I expected Wolverine to get owned, I expected DP to do much better because of his better defense and double ranged attack. 3 Kree live to win on T6R2. The Kree didn’t roll great consistently, but AKT helped them have height most of the time for defense of 5. They also out-ranged DP. They did to DP what they couldn’t do vs. Wolvie and that is to stack wounds. He had 3 wounds at end of T4R2, then after killing a Kree, he healed down to 2 wounds. T6R2, the Kree got 2/1, 2/1 and 2/1 attacks to finish DP off before he could use X or another turn to heal down.

TEST 9
Map: .Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh
Units:Kree x 3 vs. Colossus
Another long game, but 2 Kree survive to win on T1R5. They had height the whole time and he just kept at it like the tank he is. AKT would help replenish the troops as they brought more in from the SZ. The Kree had a difficult time wounding Colossus with their normal attacks, but since he can’t Heal, eventually the wounds add up. Colossus had one terrible round where he had a 4/4, 1/1 and 3/3 attack and couldn’t kill even 1 Kree.


- Squad / Does it pass, Yes or No? What should be the unit's point value? Give a brief summary. PASS @ 90. They were able to split vs. two other squads and I believe the change to Advanced Kree Technology helped settle them down from being too mobile.

Map: .Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh
Units: .Kree x 2 vs. Hand Ninja x 3 ( I count them as 60 – 65 pointers when using them for squad tests where they can’t use bonding power).
3 Hand Ninja survive to win on T4R2. Ninja had some nice attack rolls.

Map: .Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh
Units: .Kree x 2 vs. Hand Ninja x 3 ( I count them as 60 – 65 pointers when using them for squad tests where they can’t use bonding power).
3 Kree Soldiers survive to win on T6R2.

Map: .Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh
Units: .Kree x 3 vs S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents x2 +2 (294)
3 S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents survive to win on T4R2. Kree had height early but Agents got it toward the end of the game. They concentrated attacks on any Kree that was in position to AKT more Kree to height and helped fight that advantage.

Map: .Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh
Units: .Kree x vs S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents x2 +2 (294)
3 Kree survive to win on T1R3. Things obviously went better for the Kree this game.




- Army Test/ Does it pass, Yes or No? What should be the unit's point value? Give a brief summary. .PASS at 90 points. They get use out of all their powers and were fun.
Map: .Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh
Units: .Kree Soldiers x 3 (270) Batman Bruce (200) Punisher (180) Daredevil (180) Echo (130) and Robin (120) for 1080 points.

Vs.

Flash (250) Green Goblin (230) Bullseye (175) Elektra (170) and Hand Ninja x 3 (255) for 1080 points.

R1- Kree split up and move to different point of map to use AKT to bring more Kree where needed. Elektra bonds with Ninja and moves and kills a Kree with a 2/0 attack, then the Hand Ninja move. Kree use AKT to get troops near Elektra and Ninja, then attack and miss Elektra, but they kill 2 Ninja. Green Goblin moves and kills a Kree with his normal attack. Punisher moves and puts 2 wounds on Green Goblin with his Rocket Attack, but Robin isn’t in clear sight and can’t be activated. Green Goblin kills 2 of 3 attacked Kree with Pumpkin Bomb and then uses normal attack to kill the Kree he missed with PB.

R2- Bullseye bonds with Ninja and moves and misses attack vs. Punisher, then Ninja move. Echo moves and Mimics Punisher’s range of 7 to kill a Ninja at long range. Bullseye moves to height and puts 2 wounds on Punisher with Deadly Aim and then Ninja put 3rd wound on Punisher. Punisher moves away from GG’s direction and misses Bullseye on height with Rocket Attack, now Robin can see him and he moves to height and kills a Ninja. Green Goblin moves and attack with height to put 2 wounds on Echo. Daredevil moves and misses his club throw at GG, but Robin kills another Ninja.

R3- Punisher moves and misses Rocket Attack vs. Green Goblin and Robin Grapples adjacent to Bullseye and misses attack. Elektra moves to height and puts 4th wound on Punisher (but no d20 luck) and then Ninja miss Robin and Punisher, both with height. Daredevil moves adjacent to Green Goblin and kills him with a 3/0 attack, then Robin with height kills adjacent Ninja. GG dead so no turn. Batman moves and kills a Ninja with his Batarangs and Robin puts 1 wound on Bullseye with a 1/0 attack. Elektra kills Punisher and Ninja manage to put 1 wound on Robin.

R4- Collective Consciousness helps Kree team win initiative and Bats moves adjacent to Elektra with height and misses with a 3/5 attack and Robin misses Bullseye. Elektra takes out Batman with a 6/2 attack with height (all skulls baby) as he missed Evasive Strike, then Ninja miss Robin. Daredevil moves adjacent to Bullseye and misses with a 3/4 attack, but Robin puts 2nd wound on Bullseye with a 2/1 attack. Bullseye puts a wound (1) on DD. Kree use Advanced Kree Technology to bring more Kree from SZ and put 2 more wounds (4) on Bullseye. Flash moves and puts 1 wound (2) on Daredevil.

R5- Bullseye puts 3rd wound on DD and last 2 Ninja put 2 wounds (3) on Robin. All 3 Kree attack Bullseye with height and put last wound on him. Elektra (with no bonding) kills Robin. Daredevil attacks Flash but Flash Dodges. Flash attacks DD but Radar Sense protects DD. Echo moves and attacks Elektra with height but misses.

R6- CC helps Kree team win initiative and they kill a Ninja. Elektra puts final wound on DD and Ninja with height kills a Kree. Daredevil dead so no turn. Elektra (no bond) moves and attacks 2 Kree with Deadly Barrage but misses both. Echo moves to height and attacks Elektra for 4 wounds with a 4/0 attack. Flash moves and kills Echo with Fist Fusillade.

R7- CC brings 12 to 17 and beats the other roll of 16 and allows Kree to attack first and put final wound on Elektra, but they miss a Ninja. Last Ninja misses Kree. Kree kill last Ninja. Flash moves and kills 2 of 3 Kree with FF. Last Kree moves to height and puts 1 wound on Flash. Flash moves to same level and it takes all the way to the last FF attack to take out the last Kree.

Flash with 1 wound survives to win on T6R7. Close game and very fun. I might have brought the Kree out too fast, especially against mobile bonding units like the Ninja/Assassins of the other army, and Green Goblin’s PB + normal attack took out 3 Kree in one turn and they were in good position 1 turn away from getting to controlling position of height. All Kree powers were used.


- Army Test/ Does it pass, Yes or No? What should be the unit's point value? Give a brief summary. .PASS at 90 points. Despite the outcome of this match, I still think they are fine at 90 points because this was just a bad match-up. Vigilante Army or another ranged squad supported army would be better in this test against the Kree. Though, X-Men were 20 points short of Kree army.
Map: .Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh
Units: .Kree x 3, Deadpool, Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn (for 850 points) VS. Cyclops, Jean Grey, Beast, Iceman and Nightcrawler (for 830 points).



This was a slaughter and I’m not going to get into all the bloody detail. The Kree went out early to get key positions for later AKT and Poison Ivy moved out and got HQ going. Meanwhile Cyc was failing as a commander and got Jean crippled early, as he too got banged up from the long –range attacks from the Kree. Nightcrawler did the most damage with his Teleporting Barrage, but eventually his d20 luck washed up and he died. Beast got in a couple attacks before getting shot down and after a tree attacked him. HQ kept moving and Smilex Bombed into SZ area but only rolled a 2 to miss Iceman, Cyc and Jean Grey (who had retreated back behind a ruin, but apparently not out of reach of Smilex). Jean had one throw work out of two and killed one Kree with normal attack. Eventually it came down to just Cyc with 2 wounds and Iceman with none, so DP decided to load up on OMs and come out and even though he couldn’t attack for a couple turns, HQ was able to tie up and attack Cyc. Iceman managed some wounds on DP and removed OM1, but couldn’t finish him off before DP thawed out Iceman for good. That left Cyc and he was quick to go.

Kind of a bad match-up as the Cyclops led X-Men didn’t have the range or defense to stand up to the ranged attacks mostly with height by the Kree. HQ soaked up a lot of attacks as she always rolled a shield to avoid wounds and meanwhile cause X-Men grief. Ultimately, too many ranged attacks and multiple activations vs. non-Prof X Mutant army. I’d hoped for better performances by Beast and JG to take out multiple Kree, but they won most early initiatives to avoid losing their numbers on T1 of a round and getting full attacks.



Deadpool with 1 wound (healed off a few after getting up to 4 wounds from Iceman), Poison Ivy with 0 wounds (never attacked), HQ with 0 wounds (attacked several times but always got 1+ shield) and 3 Kree survive to win on T2R7.

[quozl]

Thanks, Hahma!

One thing I've thought about was that if they proved to be too powerful was to make Advanced Kree Technology read "instead of moving". What do you think of that possible change?

[Margloth]

Interesting playtest... I wonder now if they shouldn't go up to like 130 and re-gain soldier class? :lol:

Honestly, for the epic players these guys are in the Marvel Universe, I wouldn't mind seeing their stats staying the same as long as the points go up. Losing stats doesn't seem the way to go, since these guys are supposed to be of a class 2-3 times higher in power level than humans (according to Marvel).

But my opinion could be changed... they do seem like they should be roughly on par with the Skrull... and I don't know how the C3G Skrull perform. :shrug:

[Hahma]

Maybe something like this.

ADVANCED KREE TECHNOLOGY
After revealing an Order Maker on this card and instead of moving normally, you may choose one unengaged Kree Warrior you control. Immediately place up to 3 other unengaged Kree Warriors you control adjacent to the chosen Kree Warrior. All Kree Warriors placed using Advanced Kree Technology must be placed so they are not engaged.

The revealing an OM will help from getting too crazy and the not allowing them to move after or in conjunction with using AKT will help reduce some insane mobility and flexibility. I think the HH tests would stand up with the change because going against one unit would still be easy for Kree to be pretty mobile. The squad test will be done again and I'll do another one as well with another squad.

This can still help them get places fast, but not give them an unlimited move at times because before you could use AKT from anywhere and then move of 6. That is crazy good, a little too much so. So whereas I don't want to depower them in their base stats as they are just above human SHIELD Agents with move and range but same attack and defense.

Oh, I forgot to mention on the test sheet that the Collective Consciousness helped at times and didn't feel over powered.

Also, a cool thing about AKT early on in the game when you have a few squads of the Kree, is that if you send the 3 Kree in separate directions on the map yet out of danger for opponent's next turn, you can keep them guessing as to where you are going to use AKT to bring forth other Kree. You can see where they are going and then use AKT to bring your Kree up from the SZ and support that area. They have a range of 7, so they can cover key spots pretty early on and feel like there is cloaking going on. Very cool and fun.

[quozl]

Cool! It seems like they're playing exactly like I was envisioning.

I'll make the suggested change. Thanks again!

[tcglkn]

Looks like a fun squad guys.

[Margloth]

Should their personality be Militaristic instead of Disciplined? Just a suggestion... really has no bearing on gameplay but might be more thematic.

[SirGalahad]

Should their personality be Militaristic instead of Disciplined? Just a suggestion... really has no bearing on gameplay but might be more thematic.

It does affect gameplay, as it would avoid Sacred Band synergy -- not a bad thing.

[johnny139]

No, I think Disciplined is fine. Militaristic is fitting, yeah, but... what would you describe someone who is militaristic as? Devoted? Precise? Disciplined? I think we should avoid synonymous personalities like that - no need to use Heroic when Valiant will do. Making too many classes and personalities kills a lot of synergy options.

Similiarly, I don't think the Sacred Band is much of a factor, since they're OFFERING the synergy, not receiving anything from it. Plus... the Sacred Band sucks. :p If you're building an army, would you rather have two squads of slow, melee fighters or one extra squad of faster, stronger, generally-more-useful Kree Warriors?

[SirGalahad]

No, I think Disciplined is fine. Militaristic is fitting, yeah, but... what would you describe someone who is militaristic as? Devoted? Precise? Disciplined? I think we should avoid synonymous personalities like that - no need to use Heroic when Valiant will do. Making too many classes and personalities kills a lot of synergy options.

Similiarly, I don't think the Sacred Band is much of a factor, since they're OFFERING the synergy, not receiving anything from it. Plus... the Sacred Band sucks. :p If you're building an army, would you rather have two squads of slow, melee fighters or one extra squad of faster, stronger, generally-more-useful Kree Warriors?

The bolded "they" you're referencing are the Kree, right?

6-in-1, just trying to avoid issues down the road.

[johnny139]

Yeah, that. It's not like Marcus, where they'd be getting the boost, y'know?

[tcglkn]

Militaristic is an official Personality IIRC. The Fire Giant Shurrak from D2 has the personality so its nothing new.

[Scapemage]

Militaristic is an official Personality IIRC. The Fire Giant Shurrak from D2 has the personality so its nothing new.
Really? It sounded wierd the first time I heard it, but if it's official, it's my vote. :)

[IAmBatman]

Just because it's official doesn't mean we have to like it. :-P

[quozl]

I think militaristic fits better with Kree leaders rather than the grunts who follow orders. And they follow orders so well because they're disciplined.

[IAmBatman]

I agree.

[Griffin]

I agree with Disciplined as well, though Soldiers is also much better than Warriors. I have never heard of Kree Warriors, only Kree Soldiers. Also, if we are so concerned with the synergies that may exist with the other Valhalla game if we go with Soldier for the class, why wouldn't Disciplined as the personality concern us as well? The simple solution here is go with what is best fitting for the Kree and make them Disciplined Soldiers, and the synergies that they will have with the other game are likely no more concerning than the synergies that already exist with Wolverine and the Death Knights. :2cents:

[Lord Pyre]

I agree with Disciplined as well, though Soldiers is also much better than Warriors. I have never heard of Kree Warriors, only Kree Soldiers. Also, if we are so concerned with the synergies that may exist with the other Valhalla game if we go with Soldier for the class, why wouldn't Disciplined as the personality concern us as well? The simple solution here is go with what is best fitting for the Kree and make them Disciplined Soldiers, and the synergies that they will have with the other game are likely no more concerning than the synergies that already exist with Wolverine and the Death Knights. :2cents:

Making them disciplined is a lot different then making them soldiers.

Similiarly, I don't think the Sacred Band is much of a factor, since they're OFFERING the synergy, not receiving anything from it. Plus... the Sacred Band sucks. :razz: If you're building an army, would you rather have two squads of slow, melee fighters or one extra squad of faster, stronger, generally-more-useful Kree Warriors?

[Griffin]

OK, fine. But is the Kree as soldiers gonna be even more upsetting than the already Relentless Wolverine? I think not. It seems that Wolverine should be the confirmation that we all need that we are designing a separate game. The official designers even confirmed that a lot of official stuff and all of the DnD stuff was NOT tested against MARVEL. C3V is not making any decisions based on C3G, why should we accommodate a separate game instead of just do what is best for us and our designs?

[Lord Pyre]

OK, fine. But is the Kree as soldiers gonna be even more upsetting than the already Relentless Wolverine? I think not. It seems that Wolverine should be the confirmation that we all need that we are designing a separate game. The official designers even confirmed that a lot of official stuff and all of the DnD stuff was NOT tested against MARVEL. C3V is not making any decisions based on C3G, why should we accommodate a separate game instead of just do what is best for us and our designs?

Because Wolverine was done BEFORE the Death Knights... :roll:

There's no reason to purposely make them incompatible.

[IAmBatman]

I'm sure there's another thread you guys could discuss compatibility in, right?
Let's just concentrate on what class and personality work best for the unit itself, eh?

[GreyOwl]

Because Wolverine was done BEFORE the Death Knights... :roll:

There's no reason to purposely make them incompatible.

But we're not trying to make them incompatible on purpose. We're just not trying to make them compatible. If it happens, great. If not, great.

Honestly, I don't know why this is still being discussed. I think everybody is clear on C3G's position on this. If you really want to change it, I would suggest that instead of always bringing it up whenever the opportunity presents itself, do something organized like start a petition. At least keep the discussion contained into its own thread. But if you go that route, just be aware of the consequences. First, there's no guarantee that anyone in C3G will actually change their mind. But if they did, trying to make them compatible will essentially stop all new progress due to the sheer amount of testing required, and might break compatibility with the official Marvel units. Since Marvel and Valhalla aren't compatible, we can't - by definition - be compatible with both. We picked Marvel - if you guys truly want compatibility with Valhalla, then you'd have to give up Marvel.

And if you don't want to go this route...why are we still talking about it?:confused:

[IAmBatman]

I think a lot of folks are in willful denial over some of the facts you just posted, GO.

[Lord Pyre]

I think a lot of folks are in willful denial over some of the facts you just posted, GO.

Sorry, that's me. I still don't see why Marvel and Valhalla aren't compatible. Sure, they weren't specifically designed together, but I've played countless mixed games, and they always work.

I'm not saying more testing needs to be done, I'm saying that it's cool that the Kree and Sacred Band have a little synergy, and it wouldn't be cool if Marcus could make them really powerful. :shrug:

[GreyOwl]

I think a lot of folks are in willful denial over some of the facts you just posted, GO.

Sorry, that's me. I still don't see why Marvel and Valhalla aren't compatible. Sure, they weren't specifically designed together, but I've played countless mixed games, and they always work.

I think you're getting confused by the difference between "compatible" and "works". They obviously work, people mix them all the time. But they aren't necessarily on the same point scale, because the designers primarily tested Marvel with other Marvel, not against Valhalla. Yes, they did a little bit of Valhalla (like Hulk vs. Romans), but not enough to check the point cost of the Marvel figures in all situations. This isn't simply C3G's opinion - the designers have outright stated this. So the points scale of the Marvel figures might be off from Valhalla - we don't know for sure because, again, nobody checked them all.

The reason they "work" is because even if they're off in scale, they aren't off by drastic amounts (like 100 points), so in casual play it may not be a big deal.

[Lord Pyre]

I think a lot of folks are in willful denial over some of the facts you just posted, GO.

Sorry, that's me. I still don't see why Marvel and Valhalla aren't compatible. Sure, they weren't specifically designed together, but I've played countless mixed games, and they always work.

I think you're getting confused by the difference between "compatible" and "works". They obviously work, people mix them all the time. But they aren't necessarily on the same point scale, because the designers primarily tested Marvel with other Marvel, not against Valhalla. Yes, they did a little bit of Valhalla (like Hulk vs. Romans), but not enough to check the point cost of the Marvel figures in all situations. This isn't simply C3G's opinion - the designers have outright stated this. So the points scale of the Marvel figures might be off from Valhalla - we don't know for sure because, again, nobody checked them all.

The reason they "work" is because even if they're off in scale, they aren't off by drastic amounts (like 100 points), so in casual play it may not be a big deal.

I'm apparently confused since I don't see a difference between "compatible" and "works." Sure, they might not have been tested super extensively, but they're pretty darn close. It works in casual play, of course, but there are such things as Mixed Marvel Tournements, which generally imply that the Marvel guys are overcosted slightly, and that's perfectly fine. Is they were undercosted, there's a problem, but that's not the case.

And casual play is the most important anyway, 'Scape is all about fun, and mixing is another part of fun, so there's no reason to not cater to that.

Sorry for the continued threadjack.

[quozl]

So the real question I have is, "Is Kree Warriors off thematically?"

I didn't think so since the figures are named "Kree Warriors" but I don't have the extensive comics knowledge others do.

[Margloth]

Kree soldiers has 3,900 Google hits.

Kree warriors has 1,300.

So maybe Soldiers is more appropriate? :lol:

[quozl]

If you please, when I ask a question, I'd like someone who knows the answer to respond.

[Griffin]

I have personally never read the term "Kree Warriors" in a comic before, but I have read "Kree Soldiers" plenty of times, enough to where it seems wrong not to call these guys such.

At LP, Heroscape is all about fun, and a balanced game is one thing most people look for in the fun department. For me, a little bitty Retchet of Bogdan fairly easily killing my 370 point Hulk is not fun. That is unbalanced and that is the sort of thing the Marvel designers would have never created for Marvel Scape had they continued. 120 point Grimnak chomping my 400 point Superman and killing him with just a 25% chance is not fun.

[Lord Pyre]

I have personally never read the term "Kree Warriors" in a comic before, but I have read "Kree Soldiers" plenty of times, enough to where it seems wrong not to call these guys such.

At LP, Heroscape is all about fun, and a balanced game is one thing most people look for in the fun department. For me, a little bitty Retchet of Bogdan fairly easily killing my 370 point Hulk is not fun. That is unbalanced and that is the sort of thing the Marvel designers would have never created for Marvel Scape had they continued. 120 point Grimnak chomping my 400 point Superman and killing him with just a 25% chance is not fun.

Grimnak chomping my brand new Siege isn't very fun either. Picking big guys is a gamble. And most instakillers are pretty fragile, anyway. Shoot Iskra and the Rechets, problem solved. :p

If we go with Soldiers, playtesting with Marcus should be done. If we go with Warriors, then we should be fine. I'm all for theme, but so far no C3G units are overpowered in Valhallascape (Aside from some ranged fliers, but even Valhalla has a few, and it's inevitable in superscape), and I don't want to start now.

[quozl]

If we go with Soldiers, playtesting with Marcus should be done.

Not for C3G. Classic playtesting is for the Valhalla watchdogs.

And that's all I want to hear about that subject in this thread.

[IAmBatman]

Soldiers sounds like a better fit based on what I'm seeing here.
Mixed playtesting can be done by the pro-mixers and shouldn't slow the project as a whole down.
Lord Pyre - picking big guys in Valhalla is a gamble. Picking big guys in SuperHeroscape is ... inevitable.

[quozl]

Griffin, thanks! Do other comics aficianados agree with Griffin's assessment?

~ Trying to get this thread back on course

[Hahma]

I have personally never read the term "Kree Warriors" in a comic before, but I have read "Kree Soldiers" plenty of times, enough to where it seems wrong not to call these guys such.

At LP, Heroscape is all about fun, and a balanced game is one thing most people look for in the fun department. For me, a little bitty Retchet of Bogdan fairly easily killing my 370 point Hulk is not fun. That is unbalanced and that is the sort of thing the Marvel designers would have never created for Marvel Scape had they continued. 120 point Grimnak chomping my 400 point Superman and killing him with just a 25% chance is not fun.

Grimnak chomping my brand new Siege isn't very fun either. Picking big guys is a gamble. And most instakillers are pretty fragile, anyway. Shoot Iskra and the Rechets, problem solved. :p

If we go with Soldiers, playtesting with Marcus should be done. If we go with Warriors, then we should be fine. I'm all for theme, but so far no C3G units are overpowered in Valhallascape (Aside from some ranged fliers, but even Valhalla has a few, and it's inevitable in superscape), and I don't want to start now.

Regarding Grimnak: See there LP, your comment shows that you don't understand some of the differences between Superhero Scape and Valhalla Scape.

Seige is 120 points, Superman is 400 points. Big difference there my friend. Also regarding "picking big guys is a gamble", well that's the thing, who are the higher pointed units in Valhalla? Large and Huge figures. Who can't the Recchets or Grimnak Chomp? Large and Huge figures. But in Superhero Scape, the vast majority of the figures are medium, so a 25 point unit and a 430 point unit can be affected by Chomp, Lethal Sting, Maul etc. The original designers of the game balanced those insta-killers and defense negating units by not allowing them to affect the most expensive units in the game. That is pretty obvious and a pretty huge difference IMO. If you can send Rechets against Darkseid, all they have to do is roll 2 skulls because his Imposing Presence power reduces adjacent attackers attack by one. Sure you can say kill Iskra real easy like to avoid that. Well not to many people are going to be dumb enough to lead with Iskra to allow that, they will send out meat shields or other heavy hitters to occupy the opponent and then send out Iskra. But aside from that, my main point is that the original designers clearly balanced such devastating powers by not allowing them to affect the most expensive units in the game.

Now if the Kree end up being Soldiers, if you want to playtest with Marcus and do 50 playtests with a variety of Valhalla and mixing builds to make sure they are balanced or close to it for mixing, go right ahead. But it won't affect their cost, because if they are priced according to playing with Marcus, then they will be undraftable for C3G purposes and a big waste of our time. If a C3G unit isn't priced based on draftabilty in C3G armies, then they will never pass to final release. Pure and simple.

[Hahma]

Now back on track with the Kree design. I have 4 squad playtests done after the change to Advanced Kree Technology and will add them to the test sheet later tonight. As a heads up, they split two games with the Hand Ninja (at non-bonding price) and split two games with the S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents.

[IAmBatman]

A hero poll on the soldier, warrior thing:

Which do you feel is a better thematic class for the card? A) Soldier or B) Warrior?

A) Soldier

[Griffin]

A) Soldier all the way. It is what they are called in the comics, and I don't see any valid reason to call them something else.

[IAmBatman]

On a side note, I'll be taking over as the LD in this thread. Thanks.

[LordEsenwienIV]

On a side note, I'll be taking over as the LD in this thread. Thanks.
I'm just curious as why? Quozl's been active enough?
Edit: Read Public Directory.

[Karat]

I too say Soldiers.

[GreyOwl]

Soldiers

[Hahma]

Soldiers

[Lord Pyre]

I'm continuing in the hangout, to stop derailing this thread. :p

[SirGalahad]

A) Soldiers - Final Answer

[IAmBatman]

A) Soldiers - Final Answer

Aaaand ... *dramatic pause* ... That's the correct answer!

OK, five heroes weighing in seems sufficient - I'm updating the OP. :-) Carry on.

[johnny139]

Shouldn't the name be changed back to "Kree Soldiers," then?

[Lord Pyre]

Shouldn't the name be changed back to "Kree Soldiers," then?

No, we've decided to confuse everyone this way.

[IAmBatman]

Shouldn't the name be changed back to "Kree Soldiers," then?

Good point. Absolutely. :-)

[Griffin]

Their name should definitely be Kree Soldiers, come on now bats. And there are plenty of Samurai who have that title and class too. ;)

[Lord Pyre]

Their name should definitely be Kree Soldiers, come on now bats. And there are plenty of Samurai who have that title and class too. ;)

I was joking about that, if you're referring to my comment. :p

[Hahma]

Bad news is I didn't get to update test sheet with 4 squad tests. Good news is that I got Army Test 1 done just now and will update test sheet as I can, but now I'm going to bed.

[IAmBatman]

Their name should definitely be Kree Soldiers, come on now bats. And there are plenty of Samurai who have that title and class too. ;)

Um ... dude ... I changed the title and agreed with the idea of changing it the whole time. Weirdo. :p

[Griffin]

The Book of Kree Warriors

C3G MARVEL

http://dailypop.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/captain-marvel.jpg

Link To Possible Comic Art (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1298734&postcount=10)

Link To Figure Picture (http://www.trollandtoad.com/p112378.html)

The figures used for this unit is a Heroclix figure from the Critical Mass set.
Its model numbers and name are #007, 008, 009 / Kree Warrior.

NAME = KREE WARRIORS (Common Squad of 3)
SECRET IDENTITY = NONE

SPECIES = KREE
UNIQUENESS = COMMON SQUAD
CLASS = SOLDIERS
PERSONALITY = DISCIPLINED
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 1
MOVE = 6
RANGE = 7
ATTACK = 3
DEFENSE = 4
POINTS = 90

COLLECTIVE CONSCIOUSNESS
If there is at least one Order Marker on Kree Warriors Army Cards, you may add 1 to your initaitve roll for every destroyed Kree Warrior on Kree Warriors's Army Card, up to a maximum of +5 for Collective Consciousness.

ADVANCED KREE TECHNOLOGY
After revealing an Order Maker on this card and instead of moving normally, you may choose one unengaged Kree Warrior you control. Immediately place up to 3 other unengaged Kree Warriors you control adjacent to the chosen Kree Warrior. All Kree Warriors placed using Advanced Kree Technology must be placed so they are not engaged.
_________________________________________________________________

Character Bio – The Kree Empire extends across almost a thousand worlds in the northwestern lobe of the Greater Magellanic Cloud. They are the only race in the galaxy to possess the Omni-Wave Projector technology, a device which can enable communication across hyperspace as well as be used in an offensive capacity as a weapon. They also possess cloaking technology, which they call the 'aura of negativity'.
_________________________________________________________________






-Rulings and Clarifications-
N/A_________________________________________________________________

-Combinations and Synergies-

Synergy Benefits Received





Classic:
N/AMarvel:
N/AC3G:
N/ASynergy Benefits Offered





Classic:
Having a Disciplined personality, Kree Warriorrs may aid the Sacred Band (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8690) with their DISCIPLINED ARMY DEFENSE BONUS.Marvel:
N/AC3G:
N/A_________________________________________________________________





-Strategy, Tactics and Tips-
N/A
-Heroscapers Community Contributions-






Initial Playtest (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1315286&postcount=113)
Playtest
Playtest


Ahem!

[IAmBatman]

I said I changed the TITLE, not that I updated the whole first post ... I've got things to do, man! :-)

[Hidicul]

Well Bats, looks like he got you there :)

[Hahma]

Just added squad tests results.

[IAmBatman]

Well Bats, looks like he got you there :)

Said like a Sidekick. :-P

[Hahma]

Updated test sheet with first Army Test.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

FWIW, that is a picture of Ultimate Captain Marvel in the OP, not a Kree Soldier. Here are some pics I found that match the minis:
http://www.cosmicbooknews.com/cosblog/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/441249-kree.jpg
Perhaps the color of their uniforms could be changed to purple.
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/27967/695455-you_belong_large.jpg
I was thinking cut out the top left corner. :2cents:

I also think, at least for my purposes the squad could consist of two of this guy:
http://www.hcrealms.com/units/sv001.jpg
Or this guy:
http://www.hcrealms.com/units/cm007.jpg
Or one of each and one of this guy:
http://www.hcrealms.com/units/sv002.jpg

[Karat]

FWIW, that is a picture of Ultimate Captain Marvel in the OP, not a Kree Soldier. Here are some pics I found that match the minis:
http://www.cosmicbooknews.com/cosblog/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/441249-kree.jpg
Perhaps the color of their uniforms could be changed to purple.
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/27967/695455-you_belong_large.jpg
I was thinking cut out the top left corner. :2cents:

I also think, at least for my purposes the squad could consist of two of this guy:
http://www.hcrealms.com/units/sv001.jpg
Or this guy:
http://www.hcrealms.com/units/cm007.jpg
Or one of each and one of this guy:
http://www.hcrealms.com/units/sv002.jpg
Personally, I like the first and the third figures the best.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Same here, but I think it is the first time we could legitamately do three different sculpts for a squad since we did Civillians.

[Karat]

Same here, but I think it is the first time we could legitamately do three different sculpts for a squad since we did Civillians.
Yea, I hear ya, but the middle one looks like it was molded out of clay or something, it looks slightly mishapen.

[Griffin]

The first one has a white face. All of their faces should be blue, whether we use one figure or several, so the first figure is out IMO.

[Karat]

The first one has a white face. All of their faces should be blue, whether we use one figure or several, so the first figure is out IMO.
Well that would drop both the first and the third figures, cause neither one of their faces are blue.

[Hahma]

Same here, but I think it is the first time we could legitamately do three different sculpts for a squad since we did Civillians.

S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents have three different minis. :p

[Griffin]

The first one has a white face. All of their faces should be blue, whether we use one figure or several, so the first figure is out IMO.
Well that would drop both the first and the third figures, cause neither one of their faces are blue.
Yep that figure too, along with any other figure that people may suggest. IMO, Kree should be blue. :reapershrug:

[Karat]

The first one has a white face. All of their faces should be blue, whether we use one figure or several, so the first figure is out IMO.
Well that would drop both the first and the third figures, cause neither one of their faces are blue.
Yep that figure too, along with any other figure that people may suggest. IMO, Kree should be blue. :reapershrug:
Yea, I see that, but I suppose, they could be painted to have blue faces if someone wanted some variety.

[Hahma]

Kree can be of either color really. They're listed as having either light blue or pink skin.

Biology True Kree resemble humans almost exactly, with the exception of blue skin. Kree have a higher strength level than that of a human, and require more nitrogen to breathe comfortably. Kree bodies are adapted to environmental characteristics on Hala that are un-Earthlike: 1.) higher gravity and 2.) a higher concentration of nitrogen in the atmosphere. Under Earth's lesser gravity their strength and speed increase. However, they cannot breathe in Earth's atmosphere without using a chemical, "breathing formula," or artificial life-support devices.
The original Kree had blue-colored skin, but a second racial group with pink skin resembling that of human caucasians emerged over the millennia. Presently, the blue-skinned "purebred" Kree are a small, but powerful, minority. Yet, Pink Kree are much more durable than their blue racial brethren.

[IAmBatman]

Unfortunately the crappiest fig is the one with the blue face ... I think we should go with what Hahma's already provided photos for and not let his hard work go to waste. :-)

[Lord Pyre]

Unfortunately the crappiest fig is the one with the blue face ...

It takes a 97 cent bottle of paint, a $1.25 paint brush, and 4 seconds, to fix that problem. ;)

[Griffin]

Either way we go, the figures looks should match the comic art at least I think.

[Karat]

:word:

[IAmBatman]

Which is one of many reasons I'd prefer to just go with what we have photos of. :-)

Edit: Unless someone wants to do a blue paint job and take photos of those ...

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Same here, but I think it is the first time we could legitamately do three different sculpts for a squad since we did Civillians.

S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents have three different minis. :p
Your right! :oops: I forgot about them.

[Hahma]

Don't have pix of these guys yet. The only ones I provided were back on page 2, 3 or 4 somewhere to show the size difference in the two different minis. I didn't waste my time taking card type pictures because no one could decide which ones we're using.

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k273/hahma/Kree/Kree002.jpg

[tcglkn]

I honestly like the green figure better in the black paint job. FWIW

[IAmBatman]

Ah, sorry, I was misremembering. :-) Well then, maybe Griff will want to show off his painting skills and his new camera here then?

[johnny139]

The pink Kree look kinda... tiny, though, don't they? I like the sculpt better, but the scale seems off.

[Lord Pyre]

The pink Kree look kinda... tiny, though, don't they? I like the sculpt better, but the scale seems off.

Yeah, he does look tiny, and from the pictures of Kree posted, it looks like they're almost taller than humans.


And I'd volunteer to paint them, but I don't have any. :p

[Karat]

The pink Kree look kinda... tiny, though, don't they? I like the sculpt better, but the scale seems off.

Yeah, he does look tiny, and from the pictures of Kree posted, it looks like they're almost taller than humans.


And I'd volunteer to paint them, but I don't have any. :p
They do look rather small.

[Xn F M]

The pink Kree look kinda... tiny, though, don't they? I like the sculpt better, but the scale seems off.

Yeah, he does look tiny, and from the pictures of Kree posted, it looks like they're almost taller than humans.


And I'd volunteer to paint them, but I don't have any. :p
They do look rather small.

They are. The nicer Kree minis are ~4.5 hexes tall, probably less. The ugly mini with the purple paint job is ~5 hexes tall. I have all four kree minis sitting in front of me right now, and the green/black/blue ones have better sculpts (and the blue and green ones have nice decals) but they're a little on the tiny side. The purple ones have a terrible sculpt, and generally worse paintjobs, but they're closer to the correct scale (they're also more readily available IIRC).

If I had a vote, I'd say the mini card would look best with one each a mix of the nicer sculpts on it (maybe one black and two green, holding back on the blue Colonel [with blue skin] for an officer figure later) but list the uglier sculpt as an alternative in the first post.

[Hahma]

2nd Army test added. Though it ended up being kind of a slaughter in the Kree's favor.

[IAmBatman]

Seems like they could potentially go up, but 90 is a good starting point for playtesting.
I propose we send these guys to the ERB!
Nice work here, Hahma. :-)

[Hahma]

I agree they have potential for going up for sure, maybe 95 or 100. But the powers work good and the change requiring them to use an OM for AKT and also not being able to move in conjunction with AKT helped tone them down from the original powers. Their mobility, range and defense might see them just under the SHIELD Agents. In fact, despite me passing them at 90. I would recommend they be tested at 100 points. That way we can easily drop them if needed, but 90 would certainly be the floor IMO.

I'll say YEA to playtesting if done at 100 points.

[IAmBatman]

OK, but it's only time for the ERB now. :-P I'll put their cost at 100 in the OP, though.

[Hahma]

Crap, I'm losing what mind I had. Anyway, I'll vote YEA for ERB. :oops:

[IAmBatman]

:lol: It's OK. You probably got these and Molly Hayes confused. Not to mention we're voting on like six threads right now!

[GreyOwl]

yea

[NecroBlade]

Yea. I really like the powers on these guys.

[Hahma]

Yea. I really like the powers on these guys.

Yeah, they are pretty fun and offer another scary good independent squad unit to go with the SHIELD Agents.

[Griffin]

yea

[IAmBatman]

OK, that's Hahma, Necro, GreyOwl, Griff, and I voting so far for ERB ... could I get some love from A3n, Whitey, Sir G, and Spidey? :-D

[Hahma]

OK, that's Hahma, Necro, GreyOwl, Griff, and I voting so far for ERB ... could I get some love from A3n, Whitey, Sir G, and Spidey? :-D

Wow, a fivesome! :shock:

[IAmBatman]

Feeling left out? :-P

[Hahma]

No...I'm good :D

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Yea. I am interested to see what they say. The card is very clean, but lacks much flavor, IMO, other than the teleporting power. But I am just one of nine, so, we'll see what ERB thinks.

[Hahma]

There's enough flavor Spidey. :D

[IAmBatman]

I'm pro simplicity, for the most part, on squads. :-) Being a common squad is equivalent to a huge power in and of itself.

[Griffin]

There's enough flavor Spidey. :D

I'm pro simplicity, for the most part, on squads. :-) Being a common squad is equivalent to a huge power in and of itself.
:word:

[Hahma]

I'm pro simplicity, for the most part, on squads. :-) Being a common squad is equivalent to a huge power in and of itself.

Being a common squad with range 7, move 6, defense 4, attack 3, initiative boost and teleporting power is plenty. It's simple but a lot of stuff going on there and doesn't need complicated powers to get the theme across. They have advanced technology that gives them great base stats and teleportation. That's pretty huge, especially for common squads.

[A3n]

Yea to the proposal & simplicity.

[whitestuff]

Looks good.

Yea

[IAmBatman]

Cool, down to Sir G here ...

[SirGalahad]

Sorry - officiating soccer tournament this weekemd - 12 games in 2 days - good thing I can sit to type.

yea

[Griffin]

Send out for ERB please.

[IAmBatman]

Sent!

[IAmBatman]

First ERB response is in!

This will be a lot faster than my normal response, as this is a public design I’ve already examined and thought about. I will always allow time to mull over a design before responding.

First, Collective Consciousness will be neutralized if both players draft the Kree and place an order marker on it. The way it reads, it will apply to any destroyed Kree on any army card. This may be intended, so that might make this a major “meta game” figure depending on how players draft. If this is not the intention, you’ll need to add “you control.” And if this is intended, you might add something to the Clarifications section indicating that it does apply to cards for all players, as this would likely be the first question people might ask (it’s certainly mine).

When you list synergies, you’ll need to include figures with powers that work with initiative (Anti-Monitor, Joker, Riddler, etc.) I do like the way the ability depends on keeping at least one alive, as Anti-Monitor and Joker in particular would have a field day wiping them out in the first round to get the bonus. That will happen anyway with at least one figure (more if you draft multiple Kree squads).

I jumped to the part of the discussion and found out that the wording was based on the Cyprien Gladiator’s wording. Although official, it seems to read poorly to me. “Card” is used in the plural in the first sentence and singular in the second. I know C3G has opted to abandon official wording in the past in favor of grammar, so you might do this here. For example, add “any” in front of “Kree Soldier’s Army Card” (change to singular).

Advanced Kree Technology – I’m always a fan of helping with squad movement. This will need to be playtested to see if this will allow Kree to be completely unreachable by Melee figures. What I would try to do if I was playing them is hold one figure in the start zone, and spread the others on the map. When anyone is in danger of getting in engagement, I would use this to pull them to a safe spot. However, this will rely on order marker management and how initiative works out, so this might not be a problem except for an endgame situation between Kree and melee.

[IAmBatman]

OK ... here's a stab at rewriting Collective Consciousness to address Davidhtml's concerns ...

COLLECTIVE CONSCIOUSNESS
If there is at least one Order Marker on a Kree Soldiers Army Card you control, you may add 1 to your initiative roll for each destroyed Kree Soldier on a Kree Soldiers Army Card you control, up to a maximum of +5 for Collective Consciousness.

[Hahma]

That change works for me.

Advanced Kree Technology – I’m always a fan of helping with squad movement. This will need to be playtested to see if this will allow Kree to be completely unreachable by Melee figures. What I would try to do if I was playing them is hold one figure in the start zone, and spread the others on the map. When anyone is in danger of getting in engagement, I would use this to pull them to a safe spot. However, this will rely on order marker management and how initiative works out, so this might not be a problem except for an endgame situation between Kree and melee.That might be likely the case as you'd basically be sacrificing a turn where you could attack with the Kree just to get them back to the SZ and safety. If the endangered Kree have position of height, why wouldn't they attack where they were instead of teleporting back to SZ? If an opponent is going to do that, I'm going to bring my melee figures back to favorable positions for me and wait for them. The only way I'm chasing them with my melee figures into their SZ is if it's a tournament game and I have fewer points than my opponent, then I have to go for broke. Otherwise I'm going to bring my melee figures back to favorable positions and let the Kree come to me.

I think a similar thing could be said for Hand Ninja who with a move of 6 can disengage and run away from melee figures with move of 4.

[IAmBatman]

Thanks for the feedback, Hahma. :-) Updating the first post now!

[IAmBatman]

Here's our second one from Aldin, with more food for thought!

I'm a bit worried these guys are never going to see play. Unlike all the other C3G squads these guys don't have any particular reason they play well in a Supers game. For reference, here's my reasoning on why the other squads belong in a Supers game:

Civilians: Screen. Overwhelm heroes by sheer numbers.
Beat Cops: Wound absorption.
Thugs, Ninjas, Hydras: Bonding.
SHIELD: Kill box.

Kree: ?

The Kree don't bond, are to expensive as a screen, don't do the focused damage of SHIELD... pretty bland stuff. I'm sure the synergies with Marcus and Theracus have been discussed and ignored, but it is worth noting that they don't transition to Classic particularly well. I'm having a hard time imagining I'd prefer them over either the Cops on one end or SHIELD agents on the other, depending on my army's needs.

Still, imagining you don't want to do a complete reboot, nothing seems too powerful. Collective Consciousness needs a small rewrite:

If there is at least one Order Marker on any Kree Soldiers Army Cards you control, you may add 1 to your initaitve roll for every destroyed Kree Soldier on any Kree Soldiers's Army Card you control, up to a maximum of +5 for Collective Consciousness.

Advanced Tech is likely to raise the question of which Kree can attack. I assume that since movement is not involved that on a turn when Adv Tech is used ANY Kree Soldier can attack, but I could also see either interpreting it as "the three placed Kree are the active ones and must be the attackers" or "the chosen unengaged Kree must be one of the attackers since he was chosen".

I know that not everything is gonna knock it out of the park, but these guys just don't excite me at all.

~Aldin, before his morning cup of coffee

[quozl]

Interesting. I'd say the amazing mobility is a pretty nice niche to have. I do agree though that these are anti-classic units. I designed these as C3G only.

[Lord Pyre]

Interesting. I'd say the amazing mobility is a pretty nice niche to have. I do agree though that these are anti-classic units. I designed these as C3G only.

Like Johnny suggested elsewhere, if you're going to mix and are worried about these guys, then just pick Punisher and blow them away. :p

[IAmBatman]

I don't think they're an army that plays alongside heroes all that well, true ... but they're really an army in and of themselves. Kind of like the Sentinels.

[Hahma]

Well the way I had played them in testing is that you don't have to attack with the ones you moved with AKT. You didn't move them so you should be able to attack with other figures.

If the chosen Kree figure is adjacent to some height spaces or is on height with empty adjacent spaces, you can use AKT to instantly bring in ranged units onto height with range of 7 to control a good part of the map with attacks of 4 and defense of 5. So you might have a better chance of getting 3 attacks of 4 with a range of 7 than you would at getting Kill Box set up. You can send your Kree to different parts of the map and your opponent won't know where you will use AKT for support. You

They have a base move of 6 and range of 7, so a threat range of 13 isn't too bad. And I don't know how many playtest reports I've read or wrote where one army had the advantage because they won so many initiatives. So that initiative boost from Collectiv Consciousness can be helpful in some key moments of a game. It certainly won't hurt. In fact, play them with Joker and he'll even get a better chance of using Reorganized Chaos.

[Hahma]

I don't think they're an army that plays alongside heroes all that well, true ... but they're really an army in and of themselves. Kind of like the Sentinels.

Sure they don't have bonding or synergy, but they can offer some nice ranged support for heroes. They might also be able to help counter the likes of some long ranged heroes like Punisher and Green Arrow as they have some nice range too.


Thugs are less effective when they aren't on maps with concrete or asphalt and you have to have Crimelords in their army to take advantage of their bonding.

Hand Ninja are reliant on their bonding to be most effective.

Cops can cause problems in OM usage to keep them near your heroes or heroes near them. They also work best against commons but have average range and aren't great against heroes. Also make nice targets for cluster or area of effect attack.

Civilians are nice at tying up the map and forcing your opponent to attack them or move to avoid them.

SHIELD Agents are nice self-reliant common squad. They are expensive and Kill Box may not be the easiest to get to work.

Kree are self-reliant and can be played on any terrain. Their powers aren't too situational and can bring ranged support to many places on a map really quickly.

I actually thought that the Kree being self-reliant was a nice change from the previously released squads that were more specialized. :shrug:

[Aldin]

I don't think they're an army that plays alongside heroes all that well, true ... but they're really an army in and of themselves. Kind of like the Sentinels.

I think this is what has me... uncomfortable. I've been trying to adjust more and more to presenting my responses from a C3G perspective and it seems to me that to really maximize the value of these guys you'd want four or more squads. This is the first squad that feels like squadscape trying to get it's foot in the door of Superheroscape. Sentinels are Uncommon Heroes which is a totally different feel to me and the other squads are more flavor to spice up hero armies than the armies in and of themselves. I guess that, unlike Hahma, I tend to think C3G squads should always play a support role to heroes. Otherwise, you potentially wind up with the same problem the Classic heroes have of playing second fiddle to the second-rate.

~Aldin, having a bit of a hard time verbalizing everything and hoping he is clear without causing offense

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, I like how they bring something new to the table for a different style of players. They are a slight aesthetic shift from our other, more hero-centric squads, but I'm OK with having a few of those around. :-) I know I've seen criticisms of too much hero bonding at points as well, so I'm glad we didn't go that route here.

[IAmBatman]

I don't think they're an army that plays alongside heroes all that well, true ... but they're really an army in and of themselves. Kind of like the Sentinels.

I think this is what has me... uncomfortable. I've been trying to adjust more and more to presenting my responses from a C3G perspective and it seems to me that to really maximize the value of these guys you'd want four or more squads. This is the first squad that feels like squadscape trying to get it's foot in the door of Superheroscape. Sentinels are Uncommon Heroes which is a totally different feel to me and the other squads are more flavor to spice up hero armies than the armies in and of themselves. I guess that, unlike Hahma, I tend to think C3G squads should always play a support role to heroes. Otherwise, you potentially wind up with the same problem the Classic heroes have of playing second fiddle to the second-rate.

~Aldin, having a bit of a hard time verbalizing everything and hoping he is clear without causing offense

Hmm ... actually, yeah, that is kind of a red flag. By them not being hero-centric, it does risk shifting the metagame towards the more squad heavy ... which is definitely not the C3G aesthetic.

[Aldin]

Hmm ... actually, yeah, that is kind of a red flag. By them not being hero-centric, it does risk shifting the metagame towards the more squad heavy ... which is definitely not the C3G aesthetic.

One possible hero-centric adjustment would be to have Adv Tech pull one or more heroes as opposed to more Kree Soldiers. It would mean you want enough for the initiative boost and to move around heroes, but not enough to take away from the hero nature of the army.

~Aldin, openly

[IAmBatman]

Do you think it would be enough to let them move a Unique Kree Hero or a Kree Soldier?

[Hidicul]

I realize that it's kind of late for this idea, but with what Aldin is saying I'll suggest it anyways. It would cause extra work in this thread, but we could switch them to either common or uncommon heroes. I'm just not sure if we as a group, are up to a switch like that mid design, but it wouldn't effect the metagame as much as making these guys a squad.

[Aldin]

Anything that allows them to move Kree Soldiers is going to make you want to have more Kree Soldier squads. That ability is hugely OM efficient and offers them astonishing board control ability. The more Kree Soldiers you have the better that ability is.

Think of a typical HS game with lots of squaddies. You have to either choose to slow roll them and lose a bunch getting to where you need to be or piecemeal them and have less effective OMs because you can't attack with all the figures you move. If you could replace lost squaddies directly from the start zone, it would make you MUCH more effective and MUCH harder to displace from an important terrain feature.

It also has the advantage of being the ONLY ability where you can have a "teleported" unit attack immediately after teleport. Other "teleporters" (Emirroon, Saylind, Angel, etc) only move the figs. By having the Kree Soldiers move heroes, you recreate that effect.

~Aldin, thinking it through a bit

[Griffin]

I don't think they're an army that plays alongside heroes all that well, true ... but they're really an army in and of themselves. Kind of like the Sentinels.

I think this is what has me... uncomfortable. I've been trying to adjust more and more to presenting my responses from a C3G perspective and it seems to me that to really maximize the value of these guys you'd want four or more squads. This is the first squad that feels like squadscape trying to get it's foot in the door of Superheroscape. Sentinels are Uncommon Heroes which is a totally different feel to me and the other squads are more flavor to spice up hero armies than the armies in and of themselves. I guess that, unlike Hahma, I tend to think C3G squads should always play a support role to heroes. Otherwise, you potentially wind up with the same problem the Classic heroes have of playing second fiddle to the second-rate.

~Aldin, having a bit of a hard time verbalizing everything and hoping he is clear without causing offense
I share that aesthetic, just not as extremely as you do. I think there is room between the extreme ends of trash squads against heroes (civilians) and competitive squads against heroes (4th Mass).

I have read your posts and I have taken your concerns into account, and at this point, I feel it is something to watch out for during playtesting, but that we should move forward. If you look at the data that we currently have on them in play (thanks Hahma), the Heroes are actually winning against them just slightly. So for right now, I hear a legitimate concern that isn't all that backed up with the little data that we have currently gathered.

~ Griff, hoping that sounded respectful but also to the point

[IAmBatman]

No .. the heroes aren't. They won 5 of 9 against the heroes, meaning they have the edge there overall (though it's not overwhelming). Also, they lost one close army test against another army with squads in it and then steamrolled a non-squad army in the second army test largely due, it seems, to multiple ranged attacks from height and map control (which seem to be the issues Aldin is concerned with and ... increasingly ... so am I).
I wonder if we couldn't do these guys as common heroes and then have the teleportation power work on any Kree hero you control ... thus more of these guys or future Kree Unique Heroes ...

[quozl]

Hmm... if you made them common heroes and gave them Kree Hero bonding, you would have a situation where a Kree Soldier (or other Kree Hero) would move (or use Kree tech) then attack, then another Kree Soldier would move (or use Kree tech) then attack.

You'd probably want to change Kree Tech so it would only move 1 Kree Hero too. It would be somewhat squad-like but also support heroes.

[Karat]

I think that would be an intersting change, but I also agree that it would require a lot of thread talk.

[Aldin]

I have read your posts and I have taken your concerns into account, and at this point, I feel it is something to watch out for during playtesting, but that we should move forward.

*shrug*

Don't mind me. My issue is that I think they're better at 8xKree than they are at 3xKree+500 points of heroes, not that I think they're terribly unbalanced. When you say my concern isn't backed by existing data, all you're saying is that no one has tested 8x Kree versus 3xKree+(Magneto+Joker) or (Wonder Woman + Batman). If 8x Kree tends to win those, then there's a potential squadscape issue. If they tend to lose those, then there's no problem.

~Aldin, boosting OM efficiency

heh - :ninja:'d, but here's my original post

[IAmBatman]

Hmm... if you made them common heroes and gave them Kree Hero bonding, you would have a situation where a Kree Soldier (or other Kree Hero) would move (or use Kree tech) then attack, then another Kree Soldier would move (or use Kree tech) then attack.

You'd probably want to change Kree Tech so it would only move 1 Kree Hero too. It would be somewhat squad-like but also support heroes.

You could just tie it to an Order Marker reveal.

[Griffin]

OK, I just totaled up Hahma's report, and I must have miscounted earlier. The Kree have 5 wins VS heroes and the heroes have 4. That gives them the edge, but I wonder if more testing would give them a greater edge or if things would remain about even.

Kree x 1 vs. Toad
3 Kree live to win on T3R1. Toad is no match for their mobility and ranged attacks.

Kree x 1 vs. Angel
Angel wins with 1 wound on T1R2.

Kree x 1 vs. Black Mask
Black Mask gets the win with 3 wounds on T1R2.

Kree x 1 vs. Black Mask (Rematch)
2 Kree live to win on T4R1.

Kree x 2 vs. Punisher
1 Kree lives to win on T1R2.

Kree x 2 vs. Daredevil
DD wins with 2 wounds on T5R3.

Kree x 3 vs. Wolverine
Wolverine won with 2 wounds on T1R6.

Kree x 3 vs. Deadpool
3 Kree live to win on T6R2.

Kree x 3 vs. Colossus
2 Kree survive to win on T1R5.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Ok, I see that they took out Punisher (widely considered a crowd killer), Deadpool (a very strong Hero), and Colossus. Not to mention Daredevil, who is made to combat squads, was one of the few Heroes who won convincingly. This has me a bit concerned.

[quozl]

Just a suggestion for the Common Hero route:

In addition to Collective Consciousness....

KREE HERO BONDING
After revealing an Order Marker on a Kree Soldier Army Card, before taking that Kree Soldier's turn, you may take a turn with one other Kree Hero you control.

ADVANCED KREE TECHNOLOGY
Instead of moving normally, you may choose one unengaged Kree Soldier you control. Immediately place one unengaged Kree Hero you control adjacent to the chosen Kree Soldier. The Kree Hero placed using Advanced Kree Technology must be placed so it is not engaged.

[IAmBatman]

Hmm ... so you could either reveal an OM on Kree Soldier A, take a turn with Kree Soldier B who teleports up Kree Soldier C, and then Kree Soldier A teleports up Kree Soldier D (but neither A nor B move themselves, only attack), or you could reveal an OM on Kree Soldier A, take a turn with Kree Soldier B, who teleports up Kree Soldier A, then take a turn with Kree Soldier A, who's covered a lot of ground by now ... sounds like fun and will let them get all over without being squadscape dominant.
I like it!

[Hahma]

Looks good Quozl. Nice work. :D

[Lord Pyre]

I'm liking the idea! And common heroes are always good!

Costing them now might be a little chore, but it's a great idea!

[tcglkn]

The only thing I don't like about this idea, making it a common hero would throw out ALL out test results.

[Lord Pyre]

The only thing I don't like about this idea, making it a common hero would throw out ALL out test results.

Do more tests, then. :)

I don't think that should be a factor. ;)