Star Trek and who watches it.

[The Grim Reaper's Friend]

Your poll chopices will be public.
Like the NFL thread, I am very surprised to nto see anything about this. What are3 your thoughts on Star Trek? (i.e. thoughts on star trek, star trek: the next generation, and all star trek movies.)

[RabSheila]

What? No love for Deep Space, Voyager or Enterprise?

I'd vote Deep Space if it was on the poll, but since it's not I've gotta go with STNG (although the original series rocks, too.)

[jschild]

Let's see -

TOS - Has some amazingly good episodes, especially for the times. Also has some outright horrible ones, but they are actually not so bad for the time period. Groundbreaking for the makeup of the crew, first inter-racial kiss on TV.

TNG - Helped launch the "modern" age of serialized TV. Consistently good after S3. More "realistic" Captain and a great cast of crew (except Wesley and I love WW). Introduced some of the most interesting villains in Trek.

DS9 - Best Trek overall storyline (that probably benefited from competing against B5). By far most complicated captain and crew in Trek history. Early seasons were very weak however, but later seasons contain some of the best and most emotional Trek episodes ever.

Voyager - Ummm....they had their first female Captain. Ummm....have the distinction of having what is considered the worst episodes of Trek since Spock's Brain. Introduced some of the most annoying characters since Wesley.

Enterprise - Had one of the most dramatic changes of quality in Trek history. S1 and 2 are as bad as S3 is great. Unfort, too late to save the show. Easily has the absolute worst final episode in Trek history. Completely unnecessary.

Books - Buy it if David Mack or Peter David wrote it.

Movies - if its TOS, even numbers for the most part. 5 is easily considered the worst Trek movie. Khan is the best of TOS.

If its TNG, First Contact is the only significant one. The rest are either extended episodes in feel or rip off every Trek movie ever.

The Reboot - This is one of the many reasons why I love JJ Abrams.

[KERTHWAPPYSMACK]

Honestly I dont waste much of my time with Star Trek unless Im kickin it with my dad. However the Idea of the show is as infinate as the universe. but I feel the original series is hands down the best. I dont think I have met but a small hand full of people who didnt watch "trouble with tribbles" in biology class during the "reproductive" chapter of their text book.:pancakebunny:

[jschild]

Honestly I dont waste much of my time with Star Trek unless Im kickin it with my dad. However the Idea of the show is as infinate as the universe. but I feel the original series is hands down the best. I dont think I have met but a small hand full of people who didnt watch "trouble with tribbles" in biology class during the "reproductive" chapter of their text book.:pancakebunny:

Why would you watch Trouble with Tribbles in a Biology class. Real science is non-existent in the episode and there is nothing useful to learn from it in terms of biology (a field science fiction shows and movies consistently get very, very, very wrong).

That said, it's a wonderfully funny episode as well is DS9's tribute to it.

Worf: We don't talk about that.

[RabSheila]

The Reboot - This is one of the many reasons why I love JJ Abrams.

That's the main reason I don't.

http://perfunction.typepad.com/perfunction/images/2008/09/11/rimshot.jpg

[clancampbell]

Next Gen kicks a$$.

Picard, Worf, Data, awesome characters!

[lefton4ya]

DS9! When TNG was on I thought it was great and DS9 I though was OK. But then I got the DVDs for both. Upon repeat viewing TNG had some really crappy episodes and although it did have some of the best episodes of the entire franchise, if you take the average I would give it a 7. On the other hand DS9 averages a 9 because almost all of the DS9 episodes were outstanding with only about 3-5 episodes from all 7 seasons I would say are bad as opposed to TNG having 1/3 of the early episodes were bad and even seasons 5-7 had 4-5 bad episodes a season and some other lackluster ones.

I also realized something that jaded my perspective on what is a bad episode - I hated the "Sci-Fi" episodes and liked the more character-driven and ethical dilemma episodes. DS9 thrived on what I like while TNG (and especially voyager - :shudder: ) thrived on what I hate. Anything with the holdideck, alien inhabitations, time travel dilemmas without character development (exception is with enterprise C), asking if data or technology has a soul, prime directive dilemmas, etc. or just "can we survive this threat of the week" started to turn me off. While each episode of DS9 asked hard questions such as what justifies war and killing, how can you forgive your past enemies, is there honor among thieves and and enemies (in love and war), is betraying your people for the sake of what you think is right OK, is love or duty more important if one had to be sacrificed, is greed really bad, does the ends justify the means, what is truth, does a higher power knowing the future mean you are destined to fulfill that future? And it wasn't asked or answered in a cheesy way.

Not to mention DS9 had more continuity and character development than any Star Trek show (and maybe the most of any show I have seen) - like 12 main characters plus 7+ species/factions and 2-3 side characters in each of those that had more character development than even Worf or Picard had on TNG (I didn't even like Worf until DS9 where he actually had some depth). There were three marriages - all of which the people were introduced later in the show, I lost track of how many enemies became friends and vice-versa, and bright-eyed idealism was pretty much wiped out of everyone by the end. Plus there was resolution for all of the 20 different characters and species/factions by the end of DS9, something I have not seen in any other show. Also DS9 had comedy, a "cute" factor", cool battle scenes, great acting and directing, and awesome special effects (they actually were worse with Voyager and Enterprise) that added to (In my not-so-humble option) my favorite show ever.

TOS seems to cheesy now and although it may have been great in its time, I can't watch it now. I also never gave Enterprise a chance and heard the last season was great so may have to watch it. Reboot was great but had too-fast a pace that I am used to for Star Trek. I am with jschild on First Contact the only worthwhile TNG Movie. Of course even numbered Original Series moves were good, odd numbers were bad.

[jschild]

@Lefton4ya - I think the first few seasons of DS9 were somewhat weak (not bad, but were missing that special something that came later) but overall I fully agree.

B5 was probably the best thing that ever happened to DS9 because it pushed them to compete and view their weaknesses like they had never before. Season long story lines, characters that were complex on a level never before seen on Trek, the creating of a very gray framework that ennobled the bad guys and showed our heroes as good but flawed people.

I think if Enterprise would have started off like it was in S3 (excepting the last episode) it could have been a really good show as well, but they did tried and true technobabble BS for too long to recover.

It's ALWAYS the characters that matter. If you don't have good characters, the show will suck (See pretty much ALL of Voyager).

[Devil's Advocate]

Here is how I would rate the Main 4 I have watched:

1) TNG- The Best of the TV Series. Some of the early episodes are nothing special, but many of its best episodes rank among the best that has been on TV in a long time.

2)Voyager- The show has the Best premise of all the Star Trek shows. Being stranded in a distant quadrant and facing enemies far more interesting than the boring regulars (Romulans, Cardassians, Ferengi, etc).

3) TOS- Was Innovative and has some good episodes, but the acting is often comically bad (for example try watching any Shatner fight scene without laughing).

4) DS9- Fundamentally, what makes Star Trek interesting is the idea of exploring the universe and meeting new beings. Instead, in DS9 we get to watch them walk around a space station in most episodes and occasionally fly their underwhelming ship that can only hold a few people. If you like Star Trek but think the Trek/Exploration aspect gets in the way and prefer to see people walking corridors, then DS9 is for you.

[chas]

;) No one who was around in the 1960s could miss the importance of TOS, and a traveling exhibit by the Smithsonian Institute much later showed how so many of the shows were dealing with major questions such as Overpopulation, Viet Nam (or client wars), Racism, etc., etc., etc. While it looks creaky now, it retains a great impact on those of us who watched it as kids.

That being said, here's what I think about what went wrong on the bad shows:

Voyager: Would have been a fine show, had they stuck with the original theme of Starfleet vs Maquis onboard, with an eventual relationship between the Captain and First Officer sealing the breach and creating a family out of the crew. When they abandoned this, they lost their edge. After it went off, one regular actor actually said that the 'humans' were told to keep their emoting down, so as not to make the 'aliens' in costume look silly!

Enterprise: Thematically, had the exact opposite problem. Should have started out filling in the Star Trek universe mythology, which is what we all wanted to see, and didn't bother until it was too late, when they had most of the good episodes, many of which did that.

Reboot: Great humor and acting. But when you abandon the basic canon, why even call it 'Star Trek?' I still have an early large format art book that gives the history and vehicles between present day and Kirk's time, which was perfectly done, but then ignored for the later shows. I hated the old 'Imaginary Stories' in old 50s-60s DC comic books too... Handle other people's work with respect, if you're going to follow in their footsteps. Or start something new. Japanese Anime typically drives us crazy in this way, by coming up with 'alternate' versions of the same story over and over again, until you can't even keep a continuity straight! If you need to blow up the planet Vulcan, you need to operate in a different Multiverse...

[Cavalier]

Reboot: Great humor and acting. But when you abandon the basic canon, why even call it 'Star Trek?' I still have an early large format art book that gives the history and vehicles between present day and Kirk's time, which was perfectly done, but then ignored for the later shows. I hated the old 'Imaginary Stories' in old 50s-60s DC comic books too... Handle other people's work with respect, if you're going to follow in their footsteps. Or start something new. Japanese Anime typically drives us crazy in this way, by coming up with 'alternate' versions of the same story over and over again, until you can't even keep a continuity straight! If you need to blow up the planet Vulcan, you need to operate in a different Multiverse...
That is basically what they created. In having the time travel take place, certain events were shifted out of their original paths, most notably Jim Kirk changing from being raised by a strong father figure to growing up without one. His change in childhood affects his relationship with the known players, but it doesn't completely change who he, or any of them are. So you still have Kirk's brash disrespect for authority (he reprograms the Kobayashi Maru is both continuities), Bone's cynicism, Spock's battle between his 2 halves. But you also have a Kirk that Spock is initially unable to respect, etc.

I love the Re-imaging, personally.8)

[jschild]

Reboot: Great humor and acting. But when you abandon the basic canon, why even call it 'Star Trek?' I still have an early large format art book that gives the history and vehicles between present day and Kirk's time, which was perfectly done, but then ignored for the later shows. I hated the old 'Imaginary Stories' in old 50s-60s DC comic books too... Handle other people's work with respect, if you're going to follow in their footsteps. Or start something new. Japanese Anime typically drives us crazy in this way, by coming up with 'alternate' versions of the same story over and over again, until you can't even keep a continuity straight! If you need to blow up the planet Vulcan, you need to operate in a different Multiverse...
That is basically what they created. In having the time travel take place, certain events were shifted out of their original paths, most notably Jim Kirk changing from being raised by a strong father figure to growing up without one. His change in childhood affects his relationship with the known players, but it doesn't completely change who he, or any of them are. So you still have Kirk's brash disrespect for authority (he reprograms the Kobayashi Maru is both continuities), Bone's cynicism, Spock's battle between his 2 halves. But you also have a Kirk that Spock is initially unable to respect, etc.

I love the Re-imaging, personally.8)

The entire point of the reboot is to unshackle themseves from TOS. The game has changed dramatically so that they don't have to simply redo the exact same stuff from TOS. It was a brilliant game-changer. They no longer have to obsess with all the baggage that came before while keeping the stuff that was the most important. The characters themselves.

[The Grim Reaper's Friend]

What? No love for Deep Space, Voyager or Enterprise?
Well, I haven't watched those. I'll put them in the poll though. Oh, by the way, lefton4ya, thanks for the essay. That was out of the blue... as are "a great many things" (emperor).

[The Grim Reaper's Friend]

Oh, whoops, I can't add to it. That's weird.

[chas]

:twisted: If you accept The Reboot (which I don't, although it had its good points as I noted above) there are many other problems with the script. For example, they just give a starship to a brash young fellow. Yes, and in the real world, if you are 18, join the US Navy, and show some promise, they give you an aircraft carrier to command right away--it might be fun.

In this culture, without mentors for the young, and existential nausea up the wazoo from the fear and loathing of the atomization of social relations for everybody, the last thing we need is another Teenagers Conquer the Universe movie as the 'new start' of a major franchise. In the older series, there were important relationships portrayed between people of different ages, and a personal evolution that came with aging itself. The new film shows that adults are silly and unimportant, so you might as well "live fast, die young, and leave a good looking corpse." This is exactly the opposite of Gene Roddenberrys attempt to show a postive model of how society might work in the future--which was why Trek developed into a substitute religion for lost young souls. Another icon exploded--congratulations to all hands. Too bad.

End of Lecture From Old Guy
***

[jschild]

If you accept The Reboot (which I don't) there are many other problems with the script. For example, they just give a starship to a brash young fellow. Yes, and in the real world, if you are 18, join the US Navy, and show some promise, they give you an aircraft carrier to command right away--it might be fun.

Yes, and in real life, if you cheat, you'll get a commendation for original thinking and not punished or kicked out. It's a movie dude. If you are seriously gonna try this as an argument, then we have to bring up every stupid thing in Trek history. Spock's Brain anyone?

The new film shows that adults are silly and unimportant, so you might as well "live fast, die young, and leave a good looking corpse." This is exactly the opposite of Gene Roddenberrys attempt to show a postive model of how society might work in the future--which was why Trek developed into a substitute religion for lost young souls. Another icon exploded--congratulations to all hands. Too bad.

Yeah, it shows how stupid George Kirk is. I mean what a stupid adult. And Spock's parent's? What idiots! And Captain Pike, god, he's such a moron.

[KERTHWAPPYSMACK]

Honestly I dont waste much of my time with Star Trek unless Im kickin it with my dad. However the Idea of the show is as infinate as the universe. but I feel the original series is hands down the best. I dont think I have met but a small hand full of people who didnt watch "trouble with tribbles" in biology class during the "reproductive" chapter of their text book.:pancakebunny:

Why would you watch Trouble with Tribbles in a Biology class. Real science is non-existent in the episode and there is nothing useful to learn from it in terms of biology (a field science fiction shows and movies consistently get very, very, very wrong).

That said, it's a wonderfully funny episode as well is DS9's tribute to it.

Worf: We don't talk about that.I know:lol: Thats what Im sayin, but at least it wasnt a total waste of time:)

[kolakoski]

Does anyone besides me remember the multi-episode "The Thing" plotline in Next Generation, where some alien slugs infiltrated the highest levels of Starfleet, that was never resolved?

[RabSheila]

Does anyone besides me remember the multi-episode "The Thing" plotline in Next Generation, where some alien slugs infiltrated the highest levels of Starfleet, that was never resolved?


Conspiracy.

That old guy was tough.

[KERTHWAPPYSMACK]

I like the one where a war was being fought on comp and the casualties were incinerated I believe it was called A Taste of Armageddon

[RabSheila]

jschild,

Something you said kept picking at my subconscious demanding that I go back and look. So I did. I’m not trying to get into a heated debate. I know you like the Reboot. You know I don’t. I’m just trying to figure this out.

If this statement

The entire point of the reboot is to unshackle themseves from TOS.

were true and they were trying to do this, then why use the same characters. If the powers that be want characters who are so different and edgy from TOS and they want to have new origins or histories or whatever, why even bother with using established characters? That doesn’t seem like unshackling to me. Couldn’t they just come up with some different names? Did they not have enough faith in themselves in creating new characters and they wanted to go for the sure money draw of the Kirk! Spock! McCoy! names instead of the Bob! Ralph! T’chip! names?
(Yeah, I’m hoping they could come up with better names than those.)

[jschild]

jschild,

Something you said kept picking at my subconscious demanding that I go back and look. So I did. I’m not trying to get into a heated debate. I know you like the Reboot. You know I don’t. I’m just trying to figure this out.

If this statement

The entire point of the reboot is to unshackle themseves from TOS.

were true and they were trying to do this, then why use the same characters. If the powers that be want characters who are so different and edgy from TOS and they want to have new origins or histories or whatever, why even bother with using established characters? That doesn’t seem like unshackling to me. Couldn’t they just come up with some different names? Did they not have enough faith in themselves in creating new characters and they wanted to go for the sure money draw of the Kirk! Spock! McCoy! names instead of the Bob! Ralph! T’chip! names?
(Yeah, I’m hoping they could come up with better names than those.)

What I mean by unshackling themselves from TOS was the stories, not the characters. This way they don't have to do a Khan story if they don't want. They don't have to do any of the stories from TOS - because they simply might not end up in the same place due to the changes.

They should NOT abandon the characters though, that would indeed be a massive mistake. It seems they wanted to use the original crew, but with all new stories and not trapped or tied down to TOS timeline.

There is an entire generation now that not only barely knows the TOS crew, but knows nothing at all of TOS (and mostly will never because TOS is so dated that it just doesn't hold up well to todays standards for the most part - though City on the Edge of Forever still does very well).

I think this was a way to bring the characters that so many know and love to the current generation. Was it the best possible choice? Who knows - I'm just glad Berman is out of the picture because he ruined Trek more than any Reboot movie ever could.

[RabSheila]

Thanks for clarifying.

I'd still like to see Captain Bob and Lt. Commander Ralph make it to a movie sometime, though.

[jschild]

Thanks for clarifying.

I'd still like to see Captain Bob and Lt. Commander Ralph make it to a movie sometime, though.

Lol.....So would I.

That being said - if I would have had my druthers, I would have preferred a new TV (with all new characters) show done by Abrams or JMS (who was offer the head writing job for S3 of Enterprise but turned it down when they wouldn't give him full creative control. So he recommended a friend who helped turn that show around but by then it was too late).

[RabSheila]

I would have preferred a new TV (with all new characters) show done by JMS

That would've been sweet. I always thought they should have done something with some sort of tie to Starfleet Academy. Definitely new characters. Maybe some old character retired from service and now a prof. Lot of "field trips" in space.

[jschild]

See, I wouldn't like the academy route, because then it relies too much on cadets saving the day. While I don't mind that premise occasionally, I don't want it on a regular basis.

My wish? Starfleet Black Ops, dealing with the dirty jobs no one even knows about, and how the characters have to deal with such a job.

[RabSheila]

Starfleet Black Ops, dealing with the dirty jobs no one even knows about

Yeah, that does sound more exciting than my “Welcome back, Riker!” idea. I’d watch it.

Yet more proof why I don’t create TV shows for a living.

[lefton4ya]

See, I wouldn't like the academy route, because then it relies too much on cadets saving the day. While I don't mind that premise occasionally, I don't want it on a regular basis.

My wish? Starfleet Black Ops, dealing with the dirty jobs no one even knows about, and how the characters have to deal with such a job.

Section 31 (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Section_31) - Introduced in DS9 - was just that - and I would live a show like that.

As far as reboot - I like the fact that they use the original characters but are not tied down to original stories or even technology. At the beginning of the movie a ship form the future has parts spewn about when Kirk was a baby and the creators used some convoluted logic (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Alternate_reality#Background) to say that is why the technology seen in the movie is more advanced than it was on the original show. In reality, they just wanted cooler sets and the budget and technology of the move is like 1000 more than when the original show was on.

Anyone else besides me log on to memory-alpha.org (http://memory-alpha.org/) to lokk up things?

[jschild]

See, I wouldn't like the academy route, because then it relies too much on cadets saving the day. While I don't mind that premise occasionally, I don't want it on a regular basis.

My wish? Starfleet Black Ops, dealing with the dirty jobs no one even knows about, and how the characters have to deal with such a job.

Section 31 (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Section_31) - Introduced in DS9 - was just that - and I would live a show like that.

As far as reboot - I like the fact that they use the original characters but are not tied down to original stories or even technology. At the beginning of the movie a ship form the future has parts spewn about when Kirk was a baby and the creators used some convoluted logic (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Alternate_reality#Background) to say that is why the technology seen in the movie is more advanced than it was on the original show. In reality, they just wanted cooler sets and the budget and technology of the move is like 1000 more than when the original show was on.

Anyone else besides me log on to memory-alpha.org (http://memory-alpha.org/) to lokk up things?

Yeah but I wasn't a huge fan of Section 31 overall, though I'd have gladly ate it up with JMS or Abrams being the head writers and having creative control especially if they directly dealt with the dichotomy of "Happy" Starfleet and "dark" black ops, especially having it lead into direct confrontations and having them work together.

[Kepler]

DS9 is my favorite with TNG a close second (I love Worf and the Klingon sub-plots). I liked the TOS (it would be my #3) but I didn't really become a ST fan until TNG. After that Voyager and Enterprise are tied for #4 and just okay.

All the movies are just okay, but I have high hopes for the reboot (that was probably my favorite ST movie).

[Ryougabot]

Happy 45 to the franchise

On September 8, 1966, Star Trek aired for the first time. It has been a long and interesting run...

[Neo]

:zombiewalk:
On the PBS News Hour today, they talked about a real ship called U.S.S Enterprise.

EDIT: Today on NPR, I just heard of "Doctor William Shatner"

Star Trek is taking over the media!

[kevindola]

I'll vote DS9 (if I could)

more Jadzia please!

[lefton4ya]

Didn't want to make another thread for this, but I watched an episode of Voyager recently (my least favorite star trek, but my dad was bored and I watched along while cooking/eating). I saw Episode 5x08 Nothing Human (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Nothing_Human_%28episode%29) and saw this creature in 1/2 the episode "Clinging" to Torres. Didn't know the Marro Gnids were from Star Trek:
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20051002145715/memoryalpha/en/images/b/b4/Cytoplasmic_lifeform.jpg
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070816025015/memoryalpha/en/images/c/c0/Cytoplasmic_lifeform_attached_to_Torres.jpg