The Book of Optional Rule: Throwing Destructible Objects

[Griffin]

The Book of Throwing Destructible

Objects Optional Rules


C3G MARVEL FANTASTIC FOUR MASTER SET
FANTASTIC FORCES UNITE!

http://c3ggames.com/C3G/released/rules/cover_art/C3G-CA_DestructibleObjectRules.jpg

Download the PDF (http://c3ggames.com/C3G/released/rules/C3G-Rules_DestructibleObject.pdf)

This set of rules is not necessary to enjoy C3G customs, but it is designed to enhance your SuperHero Battles by allowing figures to throw designated destructible objects.

_________________________________________________________________

Throwing Destructible Objects Description- What do superheroes do when an object stands in their way? Well they either destroy it, or they chuck that crap in any direction they feel like. Goodbye city buses, and hello unlimited curbside parking.

-Rulings and Clarifications-
N/A_________________________________________________________________

-Strategy, Tactics and Tips-
N/A-Heroscapers Community Contributions-
Initial Playtest (Griffin) (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1194575&postcount=20)
Hahma (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1245971&postcount=8)

[Hahma]

Cool, looks pretty straight forward. Potential for a lot more attacks (attack/s from figure's turn plus throwing DO after turn) with map full of DO's and a lot of SS figures. Great job and loved the well written story/playtest report :D:up:

[IAmBatman]

It's great to see some DO stuff finally come together! :-) If we weren't so burned out on extra flare after World's Finest, I know we would've done this in the X-Men set and see Magneto and Jean's full fury there!
Hahma, I think I'm taking Magneto off my draft boards ... I think this is just what the current Magneto needs to kick some major tail!

[Hahma]

It's great to see some DO stuff finally come together! :-) If we weren't so burned out on extra flare after World's Finest, I know we would've done this in the X-Men set and see Magneto and Jean's full fury there!
Hahma, I think I'm taking Magneto off my draft boards ... I think this is just what the current Magneto needs to kick some major tail!

True enough. He'll even be able to throw things without using his Throw and lowering his bubble. :D

[IAmBatman]

It's great to see some DO stuff finally come together! :-) If we weren't so burned out on extra flare after World's Finest, I know we would've done this in the X-Men set and see Magneto and Jean's full fury there!
Hahma, I think I'm taking Magneto off my draft boards ... I think this is just what the current Magneto needs to kick some major tail!

True enough. He'll even be able to throw things without using his Throw and lowering his bubble. :D

Yep, and if he does lower it, he can throw up to three Destructible Objects per turn!

[A3n]

My only issue with the rules as they are is that they keep referencing the Official Rules, then rewrites said reference & then states the differences. I would prefer to see these as stand alone rules even if you are rewriting what is in the official rules I think these should have everything a player needs to refer in one compendium that reads as one set of rules. As opposed to now how it reads like a set of rules that have had additional clauses stuck in at the last minute.

Cheers

[IAmBatman]

How's this look?

C3G DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECT OPTIONAL RULES
Destructible Objects are an official inclusion in the game, as seen with the Fortress Door and the Destructible Wall. However, these rules allow the addition of extra mechanics that really bring out the flavor of Destructible Objects in superhero smash ups and send Destructible Objects flying around the battlefield.
Some C3G Destructible Object cards have size designations in the card’s left box.
Some of these size designations include Small, Medium, and Large. Only Destructible Objects with these size distinctions are affected by this Optional Rules set.
This Optional Rules set covers the following areas: Targeting Destructible Objects, Attacking and Defending Destructible Objects, Throwing Destructible Objects, and Destroying Destructible Objects.

TARGETING DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECTS
Targeting Destructible Objects: Instead of choosing a figure to attack, players may target a Destructible Object. Destructible Objects may be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is targeted and attacked. In addition, Destructible Objects with a size designation will allow for special powers to work against them even when a size and/or height is determined. Some examples would be: Magneto's Magnetic Throw and Jean Grey's Telekinesis.

ATTACKING AND DEFENDING DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECTS
Attacking a Destructible Object: A Destructible Object may be attacked by a normal attack, a special attack, or by special powers that only cause wounds. Add Height Advantage where appropriate. A Destructible Object may receive wounds the same way that a figure may receive wounds. A Destructible Object cannot be targeted or attacked by special powers that may "destroy" it in one attack. Any non-attacking player can roll defense for the Destructible Object.

THROWING DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECTS
- Small Destructible Objects may be thrown up to 5 spaces by figures with Super Strength and 3 spaces by figures without Super Strength.
- Medium Destructible Objects may be thrown up to 4 spaces by figures with Super Strength.
- Large Destructible Objects may be thrown up to 3 spaces by figures with Super Strength.
- Figures without Super Strength may not throw Medium or Large Destructible Objects.

After taking a turn, an unengaged figure adjacent to one or more Destructible Objects may throw one Destructible Object.
To throw a Destructible Object, pick an unoccupied space (or spaces for Destructible Objects larger than one hex) within a number of clear sight spaces equal to the range value corresponding to that size of Destructible Object and the figure throwing it (use the chart above as a reference).
Place the Destructible Object on the chosen space(s).
Roll a number of attack dice equal to the remaining life points on the Destructible Object's Army Card once. The thrown Destructible Object and all other Destructible Objects and figures adjacent to the thrown Destructible Object are affected.
Affected figures (including the Destructible Object) roll defense dice separately. Because Throwing Destructible Objects at figures is neither a Normal Attack or Special Attack, special powers and glyphs that specifically work for or against Normal Attacks or Special Attack, or both, cannot be used by a figure when rolling Defense against a thrown Destructible Object.

When throwing a Destructible Object larger than one hex in size, all target spaces must be on the same level, and the Destructible Object may never be placed on uneven terrain.

DESTROYING DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECTS
Destroying a Destructible Object: A Destructible Object has printed Life number; if the Destructible Object receives number of wounds equal to its printed Life number, that Destructible Object is destroyed. Remove the destroyed Destructible Object from the battlefield. Figures can now move onto the spaces previously occupied by the Destructible Object.

[A3n]

How's this look?

C3G DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECT OPTIONAL RULES
Destructible Objects are an official inclusion in the game, as seen with the Fortress Door and the Destructible Wall. These optional rules allow the addition of extra mechanics that really bring out the flavor of Destructible Objects in superhero smash ups and send Destructible Objects flying around the battlefield.
Some C3G Destructible Object cards have size designations in the card’s left box.
The size designations include Small, Medium, and Large. Only Destructible Objects with a size designation are affected by this Optional Rules set.
These rules cover the following areas: Targeting Destructible Objects, Attacking and Defending Destructible Objects, Throwing Destructible Objects, and Destroying Destructible Objects.

TARGETING DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECTS
Instead of choosing a figure to attack, players may target a Destructible Object. Destructible Objects may be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is targeted and attacked. In addition, Destructible Objects with a size designation can be referenced in special powers and be affected as determined by that power. In these cases the power will refer to a Destructible Object of a certain size or height. Some examples would be: Magneto's Magnetic Throw and Jean Grey's Telekinesis.

<<Insert one of their cards here.>>

ATTACKING AND DEFENDING DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECTS
A Destructible Object may be attacked by a normal attack, a special attack, or by special powers that only cause wounds. Add Height Advantage where appropriate. A Destructible Object may receive wounds the same way that a figure may receive wounds. A Destructible Object cannot be targeted or attacked by special powers that may "destroy" it in one attack. Any non-attacking player can roll defense for the Destructible Object.

THROWING DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECTS
- Small Destructible Objects may be thrown up to 5 spaces by figures with Super Strength and up to 3 spaces by figures without Super Strength.
- Medium Destructible Objects may be thrown up to 4 spaces by figures with Super Strength.
- Large Destructible Objects may be thrown up to 3 spaces by figures with Super Strength.
- Figures without Super Strength may not throw Medium or Large Destructible Objects.

After taking a turn, an unengaged figure adjacent to one or more Destructible Objects may throw one Destructible Object.
To throw a Destructible Object, pick an unoccupied space (or spaces for Destructible Objects larger than one hex) within a number of clear sight spaces equal to the range value corresponding to that size of Destructible Object and the figure throwing it (use the chart above as a reference).
Place the Destructible Object on the chosen space(s).
Roll a number of attack dice equal to the remaining life points on the Destructible Object's Army Card once. The thrown Destructible Object and all other Destructible Objects and figures adjacent to the thrown Destructible Object are affected.
Affected figures (including the Destructible Object) roll defense dice separately. Because Throwing Destructible Objects at figures is neither a Normal Attack or Special Attack, special powers and glyphs that specifically work for or against Normal Attacks or Special Attack, or both, cannot be used by a figure when rolling Defense against a thrown Destructible Object.

When throwing a Destructible Object larger than one hex in size, all target spaces must be on the same level, and the Destructible Object may never be placed on uneven terrain.

DESTROYING DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECTS
When a Destructible Object has as many Wound Markers as the Life number on its Army Card, it is destroyed. Remove the destroyed Destructible Object from the battlefield. Figures can now move onto the spaces previously occupied by the Destructible Object.

For this part:
After taking a turn, an unengaged figure adjacent to one or more Destructible Objects may throw one Destructible Object.
I still think it would be great if we could throw these objects in between any phase of a figures turn. So if there was a figure that got weaker the more wounds it had you could throw the object at it before attacking as a strategy to make it weaker. Or a melee unit could throw the object from range before moving up to them & snotting them.

For this part:
all target spaces must be on the same level
The wording seems a bit funny, mainly the "target spaces" aspect. Especially when its the first time the term is used like that. I was at first read thinking that it was going to be talking about the adjacent spaces that figures would take damage if they were standing on. But alas nothing better comes to mind at the moment.

Cheers

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, I had changed all those "picks" and "targets" to "chooses" in my last go around, but Griff must've altered those back ... I was going for the quick fix last night, so I just slightly adjusted the official quotes to fit them in. It clearly needs more work.
I think it would be overpowering to let you throw DOs between any phase of your turn ... I mean, if you could chuck a DO before moving, after moving, and after attacking, it's just too much ... especially if you're Magneto and can then throw two additional DOs on top of that with your throw power. I think we need to limit it to one DO thrown per turn, and the cleanest way to do that, by far, IMO, is to limit it to a specific turn phase.

[A3n]

Cool I can understand that. It's not a deal breaker for me, but I would still like to see it happen sometime before the attack. So if that's before taking a turn, before moving, or before the attack any one of those would be perfect in my opinion. Actually before moving (or before taking a turn) would probably be best (IMO) as if somebody threw it at your figure then it's adjacent to you already so if you want to throw it back you could do so & then still move towards them.

I don't want to complicate these rules at all but I thought of something else that might need to be covered somehow. First off does the throwee receive damage? & Second, can the DO be picked up & placed back on the same space/s?

Cheers

[IAmBatman]

The damage is determined based on who is adjacent to the object after the throw is complete. There's no bias between thrower and non-thrower at that point.
There's only a maximum limit to how far the object can be thrown - it could certainly be thrown straight up in the air and back down on the same space, much like Jean Grey and Magneto can do with a figure.
So you're suggesting having the throws take place before moving instead of after taking a turn?
Another thing I discussed with Griff a few minutes ago - are we sure we want to let figures without super strength throw DOs at all? I mean what are some DOs that would be worth putting on a battlefield but, thematically, figures without Super Strength should be able to throw? I tried thinking of some and the only things I could come up with seemed better as equipment glyphs than Destructible Objects ...

[Griffin]

I went ahead and updated this section in regards to A3n's concern with how to remove Battlements.

THROWING DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECTS
- Small Destructible Objects may be thrown up to 5 spaces by figures with Super Strength and 3 spaces by figures without Super Strength.
- Medium Destructible Objects may be thrown up to 4 spaces by figures with Super Strength.
- Large Destructible Objects may be thrown up to 3 spaces by figures with Super Strength.
- Figures without Super Strength may not throw Medium or Large Destructible Objects.

After taking a turn, an unengaged figure adjacent to one or more Destructible Objects may throw one Destructible Object.
To throw a Destructible Object, pick an unoccupied space (or spaces for Destructible Objects larger than one hex) within a number of clear sight spaces equal to the range value corresponding to that size of Destructible Object and the figure throwing it (use the chart above as a reference).
Remove the Destructible Object from the battlefield and place the it on the chosen space(s). If the Destructible Object is attached to other terrain or a hex space, you may remove it.
Roll a number of attack dice equal to the remaining life points on the Destructible Object's Army Card once. The thrown Destructible Object and all other Destructible Objects and figures adjacent to the thrown Destructible Object are affected.
Affected figures (including the Destructible Object) roll defense dice separately. Because Throwing Destructible Objects at figures is neither a Normal Attack or Special Attack, special powers and glyphs that specifically work for or against Normal Attacks or Special Attack, or both, cannot be used by a figure when rolling Defense against a thrown Destructible Object.

When throwing a Destructible Object larger than one hex in size, all target spaces must be on the same level, and the Destructible Object may never be placed on uneven terrain.

[Griffin]

Cool I can understand that. It's not a deal breaker for me, but I would still like to see it happen sometime before the attack. So if that's before taking a turn, before moving, or before the attack any one of those would be perfect in my opinion. Actually before moving (or before taking a turn) would probably be best (IMO) as if somebody threw it at your figure then it's adjacent to you already so if you want to throw it back you could do so & then still move towards them.

I don't want to complicate these rules at all but I thought of something else that might need to be covered somehow. First off does the throwee receive damage? & Second, can the DO be picked up & placed back on the same space/s?

Cheers
I don't think Bats answered this acurately.

1 They could, if the figure throws the DO adjacent to themselves because the rule states that all figures adjacent to it are "affected"

2 NO. The rule states that you have to first choose an "unoccupied" space to throw the object on, and because you are instructed to choose this space before the object is removed, the space that it is currently on is obviously "occupied".

That is how things are currently. Are you OK with that, or do you think something needs "fixing"?


In regards to your previous comment, the reason I would be against throwing DOs before or after any action phase is that there are soooooo many powers that ask to do that. Where as this is an optional rules set, and not on any Heroscape card, anytime the timing of "after a turn" would be in conflict with another power that has the same timing, that other power would always have precedent before this one, because this is a rules add on.

[Griffin]

@ A3n, why do you not like the quoting of official rules as a reminder/refresher first, and then our rule add on if any per section? I think that is the best way to "teach" our rule set here to the reader.

[IAmBatman]

Well I answered #1 the same as you did ... for Jotun's throw, don't you have to choose an unoccupied space to throw the figure on? Aren't you allowed to throw a figure on the space it starts on, or have I just played this incorrectly for years?

[Griffin]

Well I answered #1 the same as you did ... for Jotun's throw, don't you have to choose an unoccupied space to throw the figure on? Aren't you allowed to throw a figure on the space it starts on, or have I just played this incorrectly for years?
I don't have Jotun's card in front of me, but my answer was in regards to our current writeup for our Optional Rule.

[IAmBatman]

(...) you may throw the figure by placing it on any empty space within 4 spaces.

The rule states that you have to first choose an "unoccupied" space to throw the object on, and because you are instructed to choose this space before the object is removed, the space that it is currently on is obviously "occupied".

Now, I'm pretty sure that, in game terms, "empty space" = "unoccupied space."
In the past I've played Jotun (and Magneto and Jean Grey for that matter, as they have the same wording) that you can pick up a figure and "throw" it back down on the exact same spot. I was under the impression that this was the official ruling.
What I'm trying to establish is:

1) Is my interpretation of Jotun/Magneto/Jean Grey incorrect?

and

2) If I was playing them correctly, why would these Destructible Object rules be translated differently?

[Hahma]

(...) you may throw the figure by placing it on any empty space within 4 spaces.

The rule states that you have to first choose an "unoccupied" space to throw the object on, and because you are instructed to choose this space before the object is removed, the space that it is currently on is obviously "occupied".

Now, I'm pretty sure that, in game terms, "empty space" = "unoccupied space."
In the past I've played Jotun (and Magneto and Jean Grey for that matter, as they have the same wording) that you can pick up a figure and "throw" it back down on the exact same spot. I was under the impression that this was the official ruling.
What I'm trying to establish is:

1) Is my interpretation of Jotun/Magneto/Jean Grey incorrect?

and

2) If I was playing them correctly, why would these Destructible Object rules be translated differently?

For Jotun, I put them on any empty space within 4 spaces of Jotun. For Jean and Mags, I put them on any empty space within 4 spaces of its original position.

My reasoning, when you choose the figure, sure it occupies that space and thus it's not empty. However, that is before you roll the d20 to see if you actually can throw that figure and obviously you have to choose a figure and obviously it's going to occupy a space. But the way I see it, is if you successfully roll high enough on the d20, you are picking that figure up by whatever means the unit has and that space that the thrown figure becomes empty and you should be able to slam right back down to the same spot it was on before. Throw is different than Knockback or Push or whatever, you're not just moving it in a parallel line to the ground, with Throw, the path of the thrown figure can be arched, parallel or straight up and down.

That's just my opinion on the subject for what it's worth.

[IAmBatman]

So, likewise, doesn't the space occupied by the Destructible Object become unoccupied as soon as you start to throw it?

[Hahma]

So, likewise, doesn't the space occupied by the Destructible Object become unoccupied as soon as you start to throw it?

I would think that if you can't throw it, the space remains occupied. If you can throw it, that space becomes unoccupied. If I pick up a hammer because I'm pissed off, I would think that I could slam it right down to the same spot that it was on the floor, hopefully missing my toes. :D

[IAmBatman]

Yep. So you agree with my translation of the rules, in that case.

[Hahma]

Yeah, I never thought any differently regarding Jotun, JG or Magneto. I would think for the sake of consistency and simplicity, we'd treat the DO's the same as thrown figures from Jotun, JG or Mags.

[Griffin]

(...) you may throw the figure by placing it on any empty space within 4 spaces.

The rule states that you have to first choose an "unoccupied" space to throw the object on, and because you are instructed to choose this space before the object is removed, the space that it is currently on is obviously "occupied".

Now, I'm pretty sure that, in game terms, "empty space" = "unoccupied space."
In the past I've played Jotun (and Magneto and Jean Grey for that matter, as they have the same wording) that you can pick up a figure and "throw" it back down on the exact same spot. I was under the impression that this was the official ruling.
What I'm trying to establish is:

1) Is my interpretation of Jotun/Magneto/Jean Grey incorrect?

and

2) If I was playing them correctly, why would these Destructible Object rules be translated differently?
OK, I looked those cards up and they have you
choose a figure
place it on an empty spaceOur rules currently read, and we can change it if necessary,
choose an unoccupied space while adjacent to a DO
remove the DO
Place the DO on the chosen spaceSo currently, with our rules, you have to first choose an empty space if you are adjacent to a DO, that means you have to choose a space that doesn't have any terrain, DO, glyph, or figure on it.

Now, I would personally like to change this to be formatted with the other throwing rules, but as it is, that is not entirely so.

[IAmBatman]

Exactly. And the wording is consistent enough that it'd be really confusing to view it any differently, in my opinion.

Edit: OK, so can we just switch #1 and #2 around?

[A3n]

@ A3n, why do you not like the quoting of official rules as a reminder/refresher first, and then our rule add on if any per section? I think that is the best way to "teach" our rule set here to the reader.

1). Because they don't really exist quite as rules within the official rules. Just a bunch of clarifications that relate specifically to the either the Fortress Door or the Warehouse Ruins.
2). Because they had to be modified to be quoted to be able to use here.
3). Because it's less confusing & easier to read, & easy to read means easy learn, apply & teach.

Cheers

[IAmBatman]

I like the write up I put up there better than the one with the quotes from the official book too. It makes it feel like less of a custom project and more like a creative project, if that makes any sense ...

[A3n]

I like the write up I put up there better than the one with the quotes from the official book too. It makes it feel like less of a custom project and more like a creative project, if that makes any sense ...

Yep.

I get what Griff said about throwing between phases, & can see the benefit of not doing this. I would still like to see it as a "before taking a turn" thing though for the same reasons stated earlier.

Cheers

[Griffin]

I like the write up I put up there better than the one with the quotes from the official book too. It makes it feel like less of a custom project and more like a creative project, if that makes any sense ...

Yep.

I get what Griff said about throwing between phases, & can see the benefit of not doing this. I would still like to see it as a "before taking a turn" thing though for the same reasons stated earlier.

Cheers
Well I am not convinced on changing the timing of the Throw, and you seem to be the only one wanting it.... so I don't really feel any need to change anything until you get some support.

On the Rules writeup, I will start updating with Bats' wording now, as the two of you prefer it, and two is the majority in this conversation right now. :lol:

Thanks for all the input fellas, mates, friends, homeys, cousins, brothas. :D:up:

[IAmBatman]

Cool I can understand that. It's not a deal breaker for me, but I would still like to see it happen sometime before the attack. So if that's before taking a turn, before moving, or before the attack any one of those would be perfect in my opinion. Actually before moving (or before taking a turn) would probably be best (IMO) as if somebody threw it at your figure then it's adjacent to you already so if you want to throw it back you could do so & then still move towards them.

I don't want to complicate these rules at all but I thought of something else that might need to be covered somehow. First off does the throwee receive damage? & Second, can the DO be picked up & placed back on the same space/s?

Cheers

I don't mind a figure having to sacrifice its move in order to throw back, I guess. If it's after a turn, then this allows units to position themselves to throw by the end of their turn. I guess I like the idea that in order to throw something, a figure has to spend its turn positioning itself that way.

[Griffin]

Cool I can understand that. It's not a deal breaker for me, but I would still like to see it happen sometime before the attack. So if that's before taking a turn, before moving, or before the attack any one of those would be perfect in my opinion. Actually before moving (or before taking a turn) would probably be best (IMO) as if somebody threw it at your figure then it's adjacent to you already so if you want to throw it back you could do so & then still move towards them.

I don't want to complicate these rules at all but I thought of something else that might need to be covered somehow. First off does the throwee receive damage? & Second, can the DO be picked up & placed back on the same space/s?

Cheers

I don't mind a figure having to sacrifice its move in order to throw back, I guess. If it's after a turn, then this allows units to position themselves to throw by the end of their turn. I guess I like the idea that in order to throw something, a figure has to spend its turn positioning itself that way.
Again though, my stance is not one of theme, but necessary game mechanics. Our Rule Set is not a special power, it is an optional rule add-on. That means that if it were to conflict with several "instead of moving" powers, it would not be clear as to what takes precedent, and you would not be able to roll the 20-sided die to determine what special power comes first, because this is not a "special power".

Now, if we go with "after taking a turn", then this would always go last because it is an add-on, and the official rule book says that when special powers overlap their timing, roll the 20-sided die to determine their initiative, and since this is not a "special power", it is easy to assume that it would be last. :neat: :clean: :non-overlapping-issues-with-FAQs-and-clarifications:

[Griffin]

Basically, put it last and avoid a LOT of FAQs and annoying clarification issues.

[Griffin]

Cool I can understand that. It's not a deal breaker for me, but I would still like to see it happen sometime before the attack. So if that's before taking a turn, before moving, or before the attack any one of those would be perfect in my opinion. Actually before moving (or before taking a turn) would probably be best (IMO) as if somebody threw it at your figure then it's adjacent to you already so if you want to throw it back you could do so & then still move towards them.But then you would lose the ability to take a turn and end it next to a DO and then throw it. Honestly, it is sounding to me that you want this rule set to be all encompassing in theme, from your early post of allowing them to be thrown as any time during your turn phases, and I am not seeing where you are concerning yourself with the mechanical issues that I am talking about.

[Griffin]

Theme < Mechanics

[IAmBatman]

I think A3n was proposing after revealing an Order Marker, before taking a turn.
But, if you look at my post, I'm not disagreeing with your stance.

[IAmBatman]

Cool I can understand that. It's not a deal breaker for me, but I would still like to see it happen sometime before the attack. So if that's before taking a turn, before moving, or before the attack any one of those would be perfect in my opinion. Actually before moving (or before taking a turn) would probably be best (IMO) as if somebody threw it at your figure then it's adjacent to you already so if you want to throw it back you could do so & then still move towards them.But then you would lose the ability to take a turn and end it next to a DO and then throw it. Honestly, it is sounding to me that you want this rule set to be all encompassing in theme, from your early post of allowing them to be thrown as any time during your turn phases, and I am not seeing where you are concerning yourself with the mechanical issues that I am talking about.

The bolded part is what I'm saying as well.
The "all encompassing in theme" thing I'm not seeing as part of A3n's interests, though ...
Also, quadruple post, much? :-P

[Griffin]

Rules are now updated with no Official References, a decision that I still think is a bad one.

[A3n]

Cool I can understand that. It's not a deal breaker for me, but I would still like to see it happen sometime before the attack. So if that's before taking a turn, before moving, or before the attack any one of those would be perfect in my opinion. Actually before moving (or before taking a turn) would probably be best (IMO) as if somebody threw it at your figure then it's adjacent to you already so if you want to throw it back you could do so & then still move towards them.But then you would lose the ability to take a turn and end it next to a DO and then throw it. Honestly, it is sounding to me that you want this rule set to be all encompassing in theme, from your early post of allowing them to be thrown as any time during your turn phases, and I am not seeing where you are concerning yourself with the mechanical issues that I am talking about.

But when figure A throws it at figure B he can't attack him also (unless he just picked it up & dropped it - which means he is going to attack himself also), then figure B has to stay right where he is in order to throw the DO.

That doesn't sound as much fun as Figure A ends his turn next to a DO. Next turn Figure A throws DO at Figure B then charges at him & hits him as well. Now it's adjacent to Figure B & on his turn he could do the same, throw it & charge at somebody (if he didn't become engaged).

I think before taking a turn with adds more to rules then after taking a turn would.

Cheers

[Griffin]

Before taking a turn would be better than anyother timing, except of course for after taking a turn. ;)

Seriously though, I much prefer after taking a turn, but I would at least feel confident with a solid mechanic if we chose to go with "before taking a turn", though you should realize that figures will be able to throw DO much less, as while they are sitting next to one, an opponent could destroy it, and if it is a Battlement, it will cause a wound on the figure..... sooooo actually, that timing would encourage figures to stay away from DOs consistently..... not a fan.

After taking a turn is the best solution still IMO, and I am very confident in that statement.

[A3n]

I don't disagree that there would be risks & that your mechanic is cleaner, but your mechanic doesn't encourage much movement on the battlefield, or throwing the DOs around as much.

If nobody else wants it & I'm the lone voice in the wind then it doesn't matter, it stays as is.

Cheers

[Spidey'tilIDie]

After getting caught up on this thread, I agree with Griff. I think after moving is better. However, what is to stop us from making it both? If you start your turn adjacent to a DO, you may throw it before moving or move next to one and throw it after your attack. If we are gonna create these, we can make them do what we want.

[IAmBatman]

Either immediately before or immediately after taking a turn, an unengaged figure adjacent to one or more Destructible Objects may throw one Destructible Object. A figure cannot throw a Destructible Object both before and after the same turn.

Like that? Tactical flexibility?

[Hahma]

Interesting idea. Wow, Spidey is on a tear tonight. :D

[IAmBatman]

What do you guys think of the wording I put up there? Would that make us all happy? :-)

[A3n]

What about the text changes I already suggested:
How's this look?

C3G DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECT OPTIONAL RULES
Destructible Objects are an official inclusion in the game, as seen with the Fortress Door and the Destructible Wall. These optional rules allow the addition of extra mechanics that really bring out the flavor of Destructible Objects in superhero smash ups and send Destructible Objects flying around the battlefield.
Some C3G Destructible Object cards have size designations in the card’s left box.
The size designations include Small, Medium, and Large. Only Destructible Objects with a size designation are affected by this Optional Rules set.
These rules cover the following areas: Targeting Destructible Objects, Attacking and Defending Destructible Objects, Throwing Destructible Objects, and Destroying Destructible Objects.

TARGETING DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECTS
Instead of choosing a figure to attack, players may target a Destructible Object. Destructible Objects may be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is targeted and attacked. In addition, Destructible Objects with a size designation can be referenced in special powers and be affected as determined by that power. In these cases the power will refer to a Destructible Object of a certain size or height. Some examples would be: Magneto's Magnetic Throw and Jean Grey's Telekinesis.

<<Insert one of their cards here.>>

ATTACKING AND DEFENDING DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECTS
A Destructible Object may be attacked by a normal attack, a special attack, or by special powers that only cause wounds. Add Height Advantage where appropriate. A Destructible Object may receive wounds the same way that a figure may receive wounds. A Destructible Object cannot be targeted or attacked by special powers that may "destroy" it in one attack. Any non-attacking player can roll defense for the Destructible Object.

THROWING DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECTS
- Small Destructible Objects may be thrown up to 5 spaces by figures with Super Strength and up to 3 spaces by figures without Super Strength.
- Medium Destructible Objects may be thrown up to 4 spaces by figures with Super Strength.
- Large Destructible Objects may be thrown up to 3 spaces by figures with Super Strength.
- Figures without Super Strength may not throw Medium or Large Destructible Objects.

After taking a turn, an unengaged figure adjacent to one or more Destructible Objects may throw one Destructible Object.
To throw a Destructible Object, pick an unoccupied space (or spaces for Destructible Objects larger than one hex) within a number of clear sight spaces equal to the range value corresponding to that size of Destructible Object and the figure throwing it (use the chart above as a reference).
Place the Destructible Object on the chosen space(s).
Roll a number of attack dice equal to the remaining life points on the Destructible Object's Army Card once. The thrown Destructible Object and all other Destructible Objects and figures adjacent to the thrown Destructible Object are affected.
Affected figures (including the Destructible Object) roll defense dice separately. Because Throwing Destructible Objects at figures is neither a Normal Attack or Special Attack, special powers and glyphs that specifically work for or against Normal Attacks or Special Attack, or both, cannot be used by a figure when rolling Defense against a thrown Destructible Object.

When throwing a Destructible Object larger than one hex in size, all target spaces must be on the same level, and the Destructible Object may never be placed on uneven terrain.

DESTROYING DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECTS
When a Destructible Object has as many Wound Markers as the Life number on its Army Card, it is destroyed. Remove the destroyed Destructible Object from the battlefield. Figures can now move onto the spaces previously occupied by the Destructible Object.

[SirGalahad]

Did the question as to whether or not the thrown DO itself receives damage get addressed?

A couple of situations:

Turbo Lift - I have all flying figures and my oppoonent does not, so I simply rip the Turbo Lift off the ladder and throw it down onto the middle of the map, slowing down his advance to height.

Battlement - If I rip up a battlement and throw it, and it is not destroyed, how do I place it? Laying flat on a hex? Upright? Can I only throw it onto a space where it can legally be placed?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[IAmBatman]

A3n, Griff's the LD on this thread, so I'm letting him make grammatical/word flow type updates. Did my suggested revision seem like a good compromise for your concern?

Did the question as to whether or not the thrown DO itself receives damage get addressed?

Well the thrown DO also defends against its attack, so it can take damage from the throw, yes. Or did you mean something else?

A couple of situations:

Turbo Lift - I have all flying figures and my opponent does not, so I simply rip the Turbo Lift off the ladder and throw it down onto the middle of the map, slowing down his advance to height.

Sounds like a fun strategy to me! Was there a question here?

Battlement - If I rip up a battlement and throw it, and it is not destroyed, how do I place it? Laying flat on a hex? Upright? Can I only throw it onto a space where it can legally be placed?

It should probably be clarified somewhere, but I'd say that once a battlement is ripped up, it cannot be connected to a hex again, but only laid in a hex. Whether it's upright or laying flat doesn't really seem to matter to me.

[Griffin]

Text updated with A3n's suggestions. Thanks and sorry for the delay.

[Griffin]

Either immediately before taking a turn or immediately after taking a turn, an unengaged figure adjacent to one or more Destructible Objects may throw one Destructible Object. A figure cannot throw a Destructible Object both before and after the same turn.

Like that? Tactical flexibility?
I could support that. With a slight fix.

[Griffin]

Did the question as to whether or not the thrown DO itself receives damage get addressed?

A couple of situations:

Turbo Lift - I have all flying figures and my oppoonent does not, so I simply rip the Turbo Lift off the ladder and throw it down onto the middle of the map, slowing down his advance to height.

Battlement - If I rip up a battlement and throw it, and it is not destroyed, how do I place it? Laying flat on a hex? Upright? Can I only throw it onto a space where it can legally be placed?

Inquiring minds want to know.

If you are asking if the object must roll attack and defense for itself, then Yes. I suggest you go back and read the section on Throwing.
I played it as though the battlement must be placed legally, that is what I prefer. My plan for each DO is to have an entry in their Clarification Section to explain those little issues, something quite similar to how the official game handles it as well.

[IAmBatman]

So you're tearing the battlement off and then tossing it in a manner so that it connects to another hex as if it'd never been torn off? I know it's not roleplaying, but that seems pretty unrealistic ...

[SirGalahad]

You could really slow down some melee figures by throwing battlements onto choke points or at the bases or tops of ladders. Or would figures be allowed to occupy spaces with thrown battlements on them, like they can occupy spaces with manhole covers?

[Griffin]

So you're tearing the battlement off and then tossing it in a manner so that it connects to another hex as if it'd never been torn off? I know it's not roleplaying, but that seems pretty unrealistic ...
It would seem that way when you are still looking at it as though it were a lego. In "reality" it is just a stack of bricks.

[IAmBatman]

So you're tearing the battlement off and then tossing it in a manner so that it connects to another hex as if it'd never been torn off? I know it's not roleplaying, but that seems pretty unrealistic ...
It would seem that way when you are still looking at it as though it were a lego. In "reality" it is just a stack of bricks.

So would you not be able to throw it on spaces where it can't properly reconnect? If it's "just a stack of bricks" that doesn't seem right ...

[Griffin]

You could really slow down some melee figures by throwing battlements onto choke points or at the bases or tops of ladders. Or would figures be allowed to occupy spaces with thrown battlements on them, like they can occupy spaces with manhole covers?
I originally played it this way months ago, but I decided to have two separate Battlement DOs.
The constructed one on the front page
The crumbled one on the groundHere is the main reason why..... HEIGHT

The height of a Battlement is determined in the rule book as 3 and 2 from the "inside" of it. But when you place them on their side, it is a perfect height of 1 (which is nice and convenient) but the problem is their height changing that many times screws up adjacency, falling, climbing, engagements, and special powers that may affect them. :too-complex:

The best thing to do is create them both, but separately, as in two distinctly different cards to represent two distinct different DOs with different heights, powers, and rules for placement.

[Griffin]

So you're tearing the battlement off and then tossing it in a manner so that it connects to another hex as if it'd never been torn off? I know it's not roleplaying, but that seems pretty unrealistic ...
It would seem that way when you are still looking at it as though it were a lego. In "reality" it is just a stack of bricks.

So would you not be able to throw it on spaces where it can't properly reconnect? If it's "just a stack of bricks" that doesn't seem right ...
That is correct, just like you cannot throw a car, battlement, tire, mailbox, manhole cover, etc directly on top of Hulk.

Theme < Mechanics

[IAmBatman]

Fair enough.

[Griffin]

THROWING DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECTS section is updated with the "before taking a turn or after taking a turn" wording.

[IAmBatman]

Thanks, Griff! I think when I get up the energy to start my next playtest, I'm going to include at least one DO in them and try out the rules. Also going to try the lava rules.

[A3n]

Some small changes:

C3G DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECT OPTIONAL RULES
Destructible Objects are an official inclusion in the game, as seen with the Fortress Door and the Destructible Wall. These rules allow the addition of extra mechanics that really bring out the flavor of Destructible Objects in superhero smash ups and send Destructible Objects flying around the battlefield.
Some C3G Destructible Object cards have size designations in the card’s left box.
The size designations include Small, Medium, and Large. Only Destructible Objects with a size designation are affected by this Optional Rules set.
These rules cover the following areas: Targeting Destructible Objects, Attacking and Defending Destructible Objects, Throwing Destructible Objects, and Destroying Destructible Objects.

TARGETING DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECTS
Instead of choosing a figure to attack, players may target a Destructible Object. Destructible Objects may be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is targeted and attacked. In addition, Destructible Objects with a size designation can be referenced in special powers and be affected as determined by that power. In these cases the power will refer to a Destructible Object of a certain size or height. Some examples would be: Magneto's Magnetic Throw and Jean Grey's Telekinesis.

ATTACKING AND DEFENDING DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECTS
A Destructible Object may be attacked by a normal attack, a special attack, or by special powers that only cause wounds. Add Height Advantage where appropriate. A Destructible Object may receive wounds the same way that a figure may receive wounds. A Destructible Object cannot be targeted or attacked by special powers that may "destroy" it in one attack. Any non-attacking player can roll defense for the Destructible Object.

THROWING DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECTS
- Small Destructible Objects may be thrown up to 5 spaces by figures with Super Strength and up to 3 spaces by figures without Super Strength.
- Medium Destructible Objects may be thrown up to 4 spaces by figures with Super Strength.
- Large Destructible Objects may be thrown up to 3 spaces by figures with Super Strength.
- Figures without Super Strength may not throw Medium or Large Destructible Objects.

Either immediately before taking a turn or immediately after taking a turn with an unengaged figure adjacent to one or more Destructible Objects, that figure may throw one Destructible Object. A figure can only throw a Destructible Object once in a turn. That means that if a figure throws a Destructible Object before taking a turn, the same figure cannot throw a Destructible Object after taking the same turn. When throwing a Destructible Object larger than one hex in size, all spaces the Destructible Object is placed on must be on the same level. The Destructible Object may never be placed on uneven terrain.
To throw a Destructible Object before or after taking a turn with a figure, choose one Destructible Object adjacent to the figure and place it on an empty space up to the number of spaces indicated in the chart above.
If the Destructible Object is attached to other terrain or a hex space, you may still remove it and place it as indicated above.
Roll a number of attack dice equal to the remaining life points on the Destructible Object's Army Card once. The thrown Destructible Object and all other Destructible Objects and figures adjacent to the thrown Destructible Object are affected.
Affected figures (including Destructible Objects) roll defense dice separately. Because throwing a Destructible Object at figures is neither a Normal Attack or Special Attack, special powers and glyphs that specifically work for or against Normal Attacks or Special Attacks, or both, cannot be used by a figure when rolling Defense against a thrown Destructible Object.

DESTROYING DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECTS
When a Destructible Object has as many Wound Markers as the Life number on its Army Card, it is destroyed. Remove the destroyed Destructible Object from the battlefield. Even if the Destructible Object is attached to other terrain or a hex space, you must still remove it. Figures can now move onto the spaces previously occupied by the Destructible Object.

[SirGalahad]

Can you indicate what changed? :confused:

[A3n]

Can you indicate what changed? :confused:

I started to but it became a pain because there were a lot of extra "spaces" that had to be taken out, & I thought this way it could just be copied & pasted without any hassle.

Cheers

[Griffin]

Can you indicate what changed? :confused:

I started to but it became a pain because there were a lot of extra "spaces" that had to be taken out, & I thought this way it could just be copied & pasted without any hassle.

Cheers
So you want me to delete the text that I have and "trust" that I should just make your changes without holding you accountable as to what they are?? Nah.. you know me better than that. ;)

[A3n]

Can you indicate what changed? :confused:

I started to but it became a pain because there were a lot of extra "spaces" that had to be taken out, & I thought this way it could just be copied & pasted without any hassle.

Cheers
So you want me to delete the text that I have and "trust" that I should just make your changes without holding you accountable as to what they are?? Nah.. you know me better than that. ;)

No I would expect you to read them first & see that it reads a lot better now & then make the change ;)

Cheers

[Griffin]

Can you indicate what changed? :confused:

I started to but it became a pain because there were a lot of extra "spaces" that had to be taken out, & I thought this way it could just be copied & pasted without any hassle.

Cheers
So you want me to delete the text that I have and "trust" that I should just make your changes without holding you accountable as to what they are?? Nah.. you know me better than that. ;)

No I would expect you to read them first & see that it reads a lot better now & then make the change ;)

Cheers
OK, you win. I can do that. :p ;)

[Griffin]

Some small changes:

C3G DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECT OPTIONAL RULES
Destructible Objects are an official inclusion in the game, as seen with the Fortress Door and the Destructible Wall. These rules allow the addition of extra mechanics that really bring out the flavor of Destructible Objects in superhero smash ups and send Destructible Objects flying around the battlefield.
Some C3G Destructible Object cards have size designations in the card’s left box.
The size designations include Small, Medium, and Large. Only Destructible Objects with a size designation are affected by this Optional Rules set.
These rules cover the following areas: Targeting Destructible Objects, Attacking and Defending Destructible Objects, Throwing Destructible Objects, and Destroying Destructible Objects.

TARGETING DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECTS
Instead of choosing a figure to attack, players may target a Destructible Object. Destructible Objects may be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is targeted and attacked. In addition, Destructible Objects with a size designation can be referenced in special powers and be affected as determined by that power. In these cases the power will refer to a Destructible Object of a certain size or height. Some examples would be: Magneto's Magnetic Throw and Jean Grey's Telekinesis.

ATTACKING AND DEFENDING DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECTS
A Destructible Object may be attacked by a normal attack, a special attack, or by special powers that only cause wounds. Add Height Advantage where appropriate. A Destructible Object may receive wounds the same way that a figure may receive wounds. A Destructible Object cannot be targeted or attacked by special powers that may "destroy" it in one attack. Any non-attacking player can roll defense for the Destructible Object.

THROWING DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECTS
- Small Destructible Objects may be thrown up to 5 spaces by figures with Super Strength and up to 3 spaces by figures without Super Strength.
- Medium Destructible Objects may be thrown up to 4 spaces by figures with Super Strength.
- Large Destructible Objects may be thrown up to 3 spaces by figures with Super Strength.
- Figures without Super Strength may not throw Medium or Large Destructible Objects.

Either immediately before taking a turn or immediately after taking a turn with an unengaged figure adjacent to one or more Destructible Objects, that figure may throw one Destructible Object. A figure can only throw a Destructible Object once in a turn. That means that if a figure throws a Destructible Object before taking a turn, the same figure cannot throw a Destructible Object after taking the same turn. When throwing a Destructible Object larger than one hex in size, all spaces the Destructible Object is placed on must be on the same level. The Destructible Object may never be placed on uneven terrain.
To throw a Destructible Object before or after taking a turn with a figure, choose one Destructible Object adjacent to the figure and place it on an empty space up to the number of spaces indicated in the chart above.
If the Destructible Object is attached to other terrain or a hex space, you may still remove it and place it as indicated above.
Roll a number of attack dice equal to the remaining life points on the Destructible Object's Army Card once. The thrown Destructible Object and all other Destructible Objects and figures adjacent to the thrown Destructible Object are affected.
Affected figures (including Destructible Objects) roll defense dice separately. Because throwing a Destructible Object at figures is neither a Normal Attack or Special Attack, special powers and glyphs that specifically work for or against Normal Attacks or Special Attacks, or both, cannot be used by a figure when rolling Defense against a thrown Destructible Object.

DESTROYING DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECTS
When a Destructible Object has as many Wound Markers as the Life number on its Army Card, it is destroyed. Remove the destroyed Destructible Object from the battlefield. Even if the Destructible Object is attached to other terrain or a hex space, you must still remove it. Figures can now move onto the spaces previously occupied by the Destructible Object.


Because some figures can throw multiple objects in a turn like Magneto and Jean, you really need to keep my wording that specifies "with this rule set"
Referring to the legal placement of thrown Large DOs before you have even thrown it, is putting the cart before the horse.
Referring to the legal placement of thrown single spaced DOs before you have even thrown it, is putting the cart before the horse. (Basically, the current order of things is based on what the player will be systematically doing so that if they need to, they can read down our list of rules and "CHECK" things off as they meet the requirements. Also, the current wording, timing, and order of the throwing text is based off of Magneto and Jean (who are based off of Jotun) so that all our FAQs will be similar, just like the one Hahma brought up and Bats responded to last page. Bats was responding based on how Jean and Magneto's card have things ordered, so we changed the order on this rule to match theirs for congruency.Everything else were good changes of cutting unnecessary text and having appropriate spaces between words and spacing between lines. Thanks. :)

[IAmBatman]

Cool. Is this rules set at a point where we consider it really for initial playtesting or do we need some finalized DOs before we can do that?

[A3n]

Because some figures can throw multiple objects in a turn like Magneto and Jean, you really need to keep my wording that specifies "with this rule set"
Referring to the legal placement of thrown Large DOs before you have even thrown it, is putting the cart before the horse.
Referring to the legal placement of thrown single spaced DOs before you have even thrown it, is putting the cart before the horse. (Basically, the current order of things is based on what the player will be systematically doing so that if they need to, they can read down our list of rules and "CHECK" things off as they meet the requirements. Also, the current wording, timing, and order of the throwing text is based off of Magneto and Jean (who are based off of Jotun) so that all our FAQs will be similar, just like the one Hahma brought up and Bats responded to last page. Bats was responding based on how Jean and Magneto's card have things ordered, so we changed the order on this rule to match theirs for congruency.Everything else were good changes of cutting unnecessary text and having appropriate spaces between words and spacing between lines. Thanks. :)


But you are reading "this rule set" otherwise you would have to write that every where that a card might break the rules. If you feel the need for clarification, then use "unless otherwise stated on the figures Army Card." Because "this rule set" doesn't say anything but "when using these optional rules a figure may only throw one DO."
Totally agree. It just felt really out of place at the end of the paragraph. (But with the amendments below it fits in better with the first paragraph with talks about how to throw & the placement. Where the second paragraph is all about dealing the damage.)
Totally agree with what you are saying but not with how you are applying it. Jotun's wording: "After moving and before attacking, choose one small or medium non-flying figure adjacent Jotun. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 14 or higher, you may throw the figure by placing it on any empty space within 4 spaces of Jotun." So this sets the precedent for the order:

What is to be thrown.
Die roll.
Say it can be thrown.
Say how to throw it, include distance.

So after looking at it again, I would say that I left too much in there between the steps so I now offer this change to that section:

Either immediately before taking a turn or immediately after taking a turn with an unengaged figure adjacent to one or more Destructible Objects, that figure may throw one adjacent Destructible Object. To throw a Destructible Object, place it on an empty space up to the number of spaces indicated in the chart above. A figure can only throw a Destructible Object once in a turn. That means that if a figure throws a Destructible Object before taking a turn, the same figure cannot throw a Destructible Object after taking the same turn. When throwing a Destructible Object larger than one hex in size, all spaces the Destructible Object is placed on must be on the same level. The Destructible Object may never be placed on uneven terrain. If the Destructible Object is attached to other terrain or a hex space, you may still remove it and throw it as described above.

The thrown Destructible Object and all other Destructible Objects and figures adjacent to the thrown Destructible Object are affected. Roll a number of attack dice equal to the remaining life points on the Destructible Object's Army Card once for all affected figures and objects. Affected figures (including Destructible Objects) roll defense dice separately. Because throwing a Destructible Object at figures is neither a Normal Attack or Special Attack, special powers and glyphs that specifically work for or against Normal Attacks or Special Attacks, or both, cannot be used by a figure when rolling Defense against a thrown Destructible Object.

Cheers

[IAmBatman]

"unless otherwise stated on the figure's Army Card."

Good fix, A3n. :-)

[IAmBatman]

Any objection to changing these rules so that only figures with super strength can throw objects?

[Hahma]

No objection from me.

[A3n]

nor I

[whitestuff]

I think it depends on the individual object.

There should be a sub-text or a symbol or colours or something to show the difference between heavy/light objects.

I'm sure figures without SS could pick-up and throw a trash can (for example).

[IAmBatman]

I'm just not sure there are enough objects non-superstrong figures could throw to make it worthwhile, though. OK, sure, trashcans. But what else?
And we could always make a special power on a trashcan, like "Take Out the Trash" that lets all figures throw it.

[Hahma]

Just got done with a marathon test of with DO's, Glyphs and Throwing Objects rules. Goodness gracious what a long 9 round game with 2 1000 point armies. :)

I wrote every detail of the game down, so between that and trying to figure everything out with the rules and DO's etc, it was almost 3 hours.

I had:

Wolverine, Colossus, Cyclops, Jean Grey and Angel
vs.
Green Goblin, Hawkman, Hawkgirl, Huntress and Green Arrow.

So there were a couple non-SS units out there for each team.

The Glyphs were Gift of Atlantis and Cosmic Control Rod and there were 3 Manhole Covers and 4 Battlements on Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh Map.

After a lot of tossing of DO's and using and knocking off of Glyphs, Green Goblin with 3 wounds and Green Arrow with 3 wounds survive to win on T5R9.

Gift of Atlantis got picked up a couple times (Huntress and Wolverine) but they didn't get a chance to use it because it got knocked off easily with a wound.

Cosmic Control Rod got used a lot even though it also got knocked off a lot, as it has a ranged attack that made it really sought after and added instant offense, even if it were for only 1 turn before it was knocked off. Colossus took 1 wound while using it with a roll of 1 on the D20. It was really nasty in Green Goblin's hands, especially vs. Wolverine. GG could fly over Wolvie, and before rolling for Pumpkin Bomb, he would roll for CCR for a wound, then roll for Pumpkin Bomb and then move and attack with his normal attack. This was the first time I have used Green Goblin and I have to say I really liked him a lot.

Manhole Cover was nice help on a few occasions for blocking ranged attacks. They got thrown a few times but didn't do any damage. One question I had is "Can a figure that is adjacent to a friendly figure on a Manhole Cover, throw that Manhole Cover that his teammate is standing on?" I didn't do it, but it could have been done in one instance and it made me wonder about it.

Battlement got thrown a lot but none of them did any damage, I mean I would either not roll a skull on the single die or if I did, the figures and Battlement would defend. On a couple occasions however, I destroyed a battlement with a ranged attack when the battlement was adjacent to an opponent's figure and put a wound on that figure (last one in Hawkgirl's case). So that was cool. They also make nice road block obstacles that can keep figures from moving to a certain space or path, so there is some strategy in placement of thrown battlement.

A couple questions regarding Battlements. If a Battlement is placed vertical and locked into the side of a terrain piece, does that particular battlement have to be physically adjacent to a terrain piece to be considered adjacent or is it considered adjacent to any space that the piece it's locked into is adjacent to? If the battlement is locked onto the side of a single hex, is that battlement considered adjacent to any space that single hex is adjacent to? The single hex is just one level higher than the others, is the battlement adjacent to the adjacent space that it's facing? I know my questions are confusing, but if you put some single battlements here and there on a map and lock one here and there on a single terrain piece, you might be able to see what I mean as far as what that battlement is adjacent to. Because if you are attacking a battlement you need to know who it's going to affect if it gets destroyed and other things.

Other question regarding the Battlement. Now if one got thrown at a figure w/o SS but didn't do any damage to him or itself, but it's placed on an adjacent space that is blocking the figure's path. Now as the card reads now, if that figure wanted to attack that battlement in order to clear a path, that figure would take a wound from debris if he destroyed it. Does that seem kind of weird that a figure attacking an adjacent battlement just for the purpose of clearing it out of the way, would take debris damage.

Oh well, that's all I have at the moment.

[Hahma]

Here's the detailed Battle Report for those with time to read it. :D

Playtest Report for:

Cosmic Control Rod Glyph
Gift of Atlantis Glyph
Manhole Cover Destructible Object
Battlement Destructible Object
Optional Destructible Object Rules

Played on ruins of Pine Tree Marsh map

Wolverine, Colossus, Cyclops, Jean Grey and Angel

Vs.

Hawkman, Hawkgirl, Green Goblin, Huntress and Green Arrow

1 Gift of Atlantis Glyph, 1 Cosmic Control Rod Glyph, 3 Manhole Cover DO’s and 4 Battlement DO’s.

R1- Huntress moves onto Gift of Atlantis Glyph. Angel Carries Jean Grey to a space adjacent to both a Manhole Cover and Battlement, while Angel lands on the Cosmic Control Rod Glyph. Green Goblin moves adjacent to a Battlement and throws it at JG onto a space adjacent to Angel and JG but misses. Jean Grey uses optional rules to throw a vertical Battlement adjacent to her at Green Goblin but misses. Then she uses her Throw power to try to throw back the other Battlement that Green Goblin threw at her before but she fails the d20 roll for Throw. Green Arrow moves to other part of his SZ and attacks with SS roll of 2 for normal attack vs. Angel but misses and Angel stays put for now. Cyclops moves over in his SZ and from 8 spaces with height, he puts 1 wound on Huntress and she loses Gift of Atlantis, which is placed 3 spaces from Cyc, Colossus and Wolverine.

R2 – Green Goblin fly’s over Battlement that is adjacent to Jean Grey and Angel and drops a Pumpkin Bomb while on his way to height .The PB destroys the Battlement and gives Angel and Jean Grey each 1 wound and Angel loses CCR but neither JG or Angel take other wounds from PB. Green Goblin then attacks from height vs. Angel and puts 2 more wounds on him for 3. Angel uses Guardian Angel to Carry JG onto Manhole Cover and he lands on CCR again. Angel (armed with CCR) Carries JG into opponent’s SZ and uses CCR vs. Hawkman for 1 wound and misses Green Arrow with his normal attack. Green Goblin moves and attacks normally with height vs. Jean Grey for a wound (2). Angel uses Guardian Angel to Carry JG out of range of Battlement that GG was going to throw next. Cyclops uses Telepathic Rapport to have JG Throw Hawkman for 1 wound (2) and then attack with height vs.Hawkgirl and lands a 4/0 attack on HG. Hawkman is pissed and uses Hawk Strike (after JG only rolls 7 for Psionic Grip) to kill Angel to put an end to that Guardian Angel crap and to knock CCR away again. Then because of Undying Love, Hawkman gets to attack Jean Grey and puts a wound on her (3). Wolverine moves onto Gift of Atlantis.

R3 – Green Goblin moves onto Cosmic Control Rod. Cyclops uses Telepathic Rapport to have JG try to Throw Hawkman but she misses and then misses attack vs. Hawkgirl. Green Goblin fly’s adjacent to Manhole Cover and attacks with CCR vs. Wolverine for 1 wound to knock Gift of Atlantis from Wolvie. Then GG attacks normally but misses and then throws Manhole Cover at Wolvie but misses. Colossus moves and uses Fastball Special to throw Wolvie at GG for 1 wound and then throws Battlement at Huntress and misses. Huntress moves onto Manhole Cover and attacks 2x3 vs. Colossus but misses both attacks. Wolvie attacks GG and puts 1 wound on him to knock CCR from GG. Wolvie heals 1 wound off for 0.

R4 – Colossus moves onto CCR and Manhole Cover and puts 1 wound on Green Goblin with CCR. Green Goblin fly’s over Wolvie and drops a Pumpkin Bomb and misses, but when he attacks with his normal attack, he puts 2 wounds on Wolvie. Cyclops uses Telepathic Rapport to have JG Throw Hawkman for 0 wounds and then she attacks and misses Hawkgirl. Green Goblin fly’s over Wolvie and onto Gift of Atlantis and puts 3 wounds on Wolvie with a 3/0 PB attack and then finishes Wolvie off with a 5/1 normal attack (from height). Wolvie Dead no turn. Hawkman gets past Psionic Grip to kill Jean Grey.

R5 – Huntress moves to get 2 spaces from Colossus for a 2x5 attack but misses both attacks, with the Manhole Cover helping him block a 4 skull attack. Colossus moves off Manhole Cover and attacks Huntress with CCR for 2 wounds (3) and throws the Manhole Cover at her but misses. Green Arrow attacks and misses Colossus. Cyclops moves and attacks Huntress but misses. Hawkgirl moves and Throws Battlement at Colossus but misses. Colossus tries to attack with the CCR vs a Battlement adjacent to Hawkgirl to auto-kill the Battlement and put last wound on Hawkgirl but Colossus rolled a 1 on the D20 and took a wound and lost the CCR to a space adjacent to Huntress. Colossus then throws Battlement at Hawkgirl but misses.

R6- Huntress moves onto CCR and uses it to put 1 wound (2) on Colossus and then she puts another wound (3) on him with her 2x3 Crossbow attack. Cyclops uses Optic Blast to destroy Battlement adjacent to Hawkgirl and kills her. Hawkgirl dead no turn. Cyclops attacks with height vs. Huntress and kills her and knocks the CCR to a space behind Colossus. Hawkman moves onto Manhole Cover. Colossus moves onto CCR glyph.

R7- Colossus moves and uses CCR to put 1 wound (3) on Hawkman and then throws Manhole Cover at Green Goblin but misses. Hawkman moves and Hawk Strike vs. Colossus and misses 1st attack but puts 1 wound (4) on Colossus with 2nd attack and knocks CCR away from him and near Green Arrow. Cyc misses attack vs. Hawkman. Green Arrow moves onto CCR and puts a wound (5) on Colossus with it but misses him with his Skill Shot attack. Colossus kills Hawkman and then throws Battlement at Green Arrow but misses. Green Arrow kills Colossus with CCR but misses Cyclops with Skill Shot attack.

R8 – Cyc puts a wound on Green Arrow and knocks CCR away. Green Arrow moves onto a Manhole Cover and puts 1 wound (1) on Cyc with Skill Shot. Cyc moves onto CCR and puts 1 wound on Green Arrow with it but misses normal attack as Manhole Cover helps GA. Green Arrow moves to height and with a SS roll of 20 only rolls 1 skull to only put 1 wound (2) on Cyc and knocks the CCR toward Green Goblin. Cyc moves back and lines up Green Arrow with Optic Blast and the Manhole Cover helps Green Arrow again and he only takes 1 wound. Green Goblin drops Gift of Atlantis and moves onto CCR glyph.

R9- Green Goblin moves to height and puts 1 wound (3) on Cyc with CCR but misses normal attack. Cyc attacks GG with Optic Blast but misses. Green Arrow misses Cyc with Skill Shot. Cyc misses again with Optic Blast vs. Green Goblin. Green Goblin uses CCR to put last wound on Cyclops.

Green Goblin with 3 wounds and Green Arrow with 3 wounds survive to win.

Long freaking game. Lots of extra attacks and stuff when CCR and throwable DO’s are in a game. It was fun and a pretty close game.

Gift of Atlantis got picked up a couple times but didn’t get used as the carrier quickly took a wound and it got knocked off without being used. If it were placed on a water space to begin with, it would likely get more use as it would protect carrier from non-adjacent normal attacks.

Cosmic Control Rod got used a lot and put a lot of wounds on both sides as they both took turns knocking it away from each other and using it.

Manhole Covers helped defensively, but when thrown, they didn’t inflict any wounds.

Battlements got thrown a lot, but never inflicted any wounds from being thrown. They are nice to attack with a ranged attack when the Battlement is adjacent to an opponent and can easily bypass defense to inflict an auto-wound. Might get more damage from Throwing by Magneto and JG when they use their Throwing power and it works to both throw it and inflict a wound on it and cause Debris to wound adjacent figures.

Overall I don’t see that Throwing 1 life DO’s will inflict damage often, though they will have a better chance vs. low defense units with a 1 or 2 defense.

A things I wasn’t sure about:

Can a figure throw a Manhole Cover that an adjacent friendly figure is standing on?

When a Battlement is locked into the side of a terrain piece, what exactly are the boundaries for adjacency? Is any space that is adjacent to the terrain piece that it’s locked into also adjacent to the vertical Battlement? Or is only the terrain piece that it is locked into and the 1 other terrain piece that it is facing that is adjacent to the locked into piece considered adjacent?

One thing for sure is that when playing with optional rules and equipment glyphs, be prepared for longer games, as there simply is a lot more going on. It certainly is fun though, so while they may not be for every game, when you have the extra time, they are really fun.

[IAmBatman]

Yipes! Great work, Hahma! :-) I'll have to catch up on this later ... busy, busy, busy. Hopefully Griff can answer your questions about the Battlements.

[Griffin]

Hahma, I don't have time right now about the adjacency of Battlements to figures and DOs, but I have already gone through all of that a couple weeks back, so I am prepared to answer those questions and place the FAQs on the front page. Battlements are a bit tricky because they are placed in between spaces, but thankfully, I have collected a a bunch of info from the official FAQs and rulebooks, so there will be a clear definition as to what is "adjacent".

Thanks btw, looks like you had a lot of fun! :D

[Hahma]

Yeah it was fun, but a long game with all the DO's and Glyphs. Between Green Goblin and Angel, there was a lot of things going on in a turn.

Green Goblin with the CCR glyph could throw a DO, then fly over an opponent for a PB, after that's resolved, he can CCR and opponent, then normal attack. Or he can fly over to PB attack, use CCR, use normal attack and then throw a DO.

The battlements when laying down on a space are easy to figure out the adjacency but the vertical ones between two spaces are tricky. Like if you throw a DO onto a space adjacent to an opponent's figure and there also happens to be a vertical battlement on the edge of the space occupied by the opponent's figure but opposite side as that of the space that the DO is thrown onto, then it becomes the question as to "is that battlement also affected by the DO attack?" Same can be said for an area of effect attack.

Or if you attack a vertical battlement from range and an opponent's figure doesn't occupy the space that the battlement is attached to, but a space adjacent to that space, would that figure be affected by debris.

Lots of different things in play here. Also, you can have a thrown battlement laying across a terrain piece, so it's easy to know that all spaces adjacent to that space are adjacent. But couldn't the vertical battlement be the same? Also would the height of the battlement both vertical and horizontal come into play as to whether it was adjacent to something?

[IAmBatman]

I was under the impression that, under these rules, you couldn't lay a battlement on a space - you had to actually place it on a hex as part of the throw?
I'm beginning to think we need those FAQs and pictorials before we can complete our playtesting ... :-P

[Hahma]

I was under the impression that, under these rules, you couldn't lay a battlement on a space - you had to actually place it on a hex as part of the throw?
I'm beginning to think we need those FAQs and pictorials before we can complete our playtesting ... :-P



If the figure is allowed to throw the Destructible Object, you may remove the Destructible Object from the battlefield Even if the Destructible Object is attached to other terrain or a hex space, you may still remove it.
Place the Destructible Object on a space(s) within a number of spaces equal to the range value corresponding to the size of Destructible Object and the figure throwing it (use the chart above as a reference).


I didn't see where it said you had to reattach it to the side of a hex. Also, if you are throwing a battlement to a space that is flat and surrounded by same level terrain, it would be impossible to reattach it to the side of a hex. Then, who determines what side of the hex if you could do it? If you have a figure that has part of their weapon (like a Stinger) overlapping the edge of a space, you shouldn't be able to move the opponent's figure to place the battlement on the edge.

Laying the battlement on the space was fine to me. It overlaps one edge of the space a smidge but the only time that would become an issue is when the space you throw it onto is surrounded with opponent's figures and you shouldn't be able to move their figures in order to place the battlement, but you could still do so in most cases as the bases of those surrounding figures wouldn't all likely be against the edge of the one hex in the middle. Regardless, that's part of the original rules where you can't move an opponent's figure, so if you can't place the battlement on a space for that reason then you can't throw it there period.

The other thing about laying a battlement on a space is that it becomes an obstacle (which had an effect in my testing) where a figure can't move through it (unless they had a power that allowed them to move through obstacles). The one thing I didn't like about that in conjunction with the debris power is that if a figure wanted to destroy a battlement that was in their path, they'd have to take debris damage and I don't think that is right.

Oh well, that's all the time I have now on the subject, I'll check back later. :D

[IAmBatman]

I tend to agree with you, but I got the impression from talking to Griff that he thought attaching it was of the utmost importance for some reason.

[Hahma]

Well if attaching is of the utmost importance, then you won't be able to throw battlements onto a lot of places where attaching is impossible. Like I mentioned previously, if the terrain is flat, you can't throw the battlement there. If an opponent has figures with rifles or other parts of the mini that can extend over the edge, they can block parts of a raised hex so that the battlement couldn't be placed there. For counting spaces for distance, if you attach the battlement to the edge of a hex, do you count the hex it's attached to as a space or the lower adjacent space that it splits as the last space? I kind of think there are more issues with having to attach the battlement than being able to lay it down.

Before leaving for work, I quickly set up several Superheroscape figures surrounding and empty space and was able to place the battlement on that space laying down without touching the figures. So it can be done in most cases I'd suspect and any case that it couldn't be done would mean it couldn't be thrown there.

We'll have to see what Griff says and his reasons and whatnot.

[A3n]

I think that they shouldn't be required to be attached again after being thrown. :2cents:

Cheers

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other, but it sure seems laying as opposed to attaching has less headaches. :2cents:

[IAmBatman]

That's kind of my thought on the matter as well. I forget what Griff's specific reason was, but I do recall that he had one.

[Griffin]

I am 100% against laying these down. When you do that, you change the height of the thing, and that alone creates a lot of new headaches. But this conversation really belongs in the battlement thread.

[Hahma]

Just for kicks, since we talked about replacing the Battlement DO's for this set with Evergreen Trees, I thought I'd try my hand at some Trees. The only problem is that they would be Huge based on their height compared to official figure's height and under the current version of these Throwing DO rules, Huge DO's can't be thrown. :shrug:



EVERGREEN TREE 10

SIZE – Huge 10

LIFE- 2
DEFENSE- 6

PARTIAL COVER
If an opponent’s non-adjacent figure targets a figure you control that is adjacent to this Evergreen Tree, they must subtract 3 from their Range number, to a minimum of 1.

____________________________________________________________________

EVERGREEN TREE 11

SIZE – Huge 11

LIFE- 2
DEFENSE- 6

PARTIAL COVER
If an opponent’s non-adjacent figure targets a figure you control that is adjacent to this Evergreen Tree, they must subtract 3 from their Range number, to a minimum of 1.

____________________________________________________________________


EVERGREEN TREE 12

SIZE – Huge 12

LIFE- 2
DEFENSE- 6

PARTIAL COVER
If an opponent’s non-adjacent figure targets a figure you control that is adjacent to this Evergreen Tree, they must subtract 3 from their Range number, to a minimum of 1.

_____________________________________________________________________


EVERGREEN TREE 15

SIZE – Huge 15

LIFE- 3
DEFENSE- 7

PARTIAL COVER
If an opponent’s non-adjacent figure targets a figure you control that is adjacent to this Evergreen Tree, they must subtract 4 from their Range number, to a minimum of 1.

[IAmBatman]

What about Partial Cover for the name of that power? I think the power should stay consistent on all the trees - just change the stats. I like the theme of the power, though. Nice work and nice initiative.

[Hahma]

Thanks. I thought I'd try to help out and not leave it to you or Griff to have to do, you guys do a ton already and it's greatly appreciated. :D

Changed to Partial Cover, nice suggestion as it's simpler and not sniper language like Broken-Up Outline. :)

Yeah, I agree that the power should be consistent for all the trees.

Considering the size 10, 11 and 12 trees are pretty much the same except just a little taller for each one, I figured they could have the same stats. Since the size 15 tree is obviously bigger, I figured a bump in life and defense was in order and a reduction in range by 4 (vs. 3 for others) would also be in order. Those are just my thoughts in trying to keep them simple, but we can change it around of course.

[IAmBatman]

I think keeping the power the same on all of them is a good idea, and, yeah, I can dig keeping the stats on all the single based trees the same. The giant tree is probably going to be too big to throw ... not sure if we even want that as a destructible object.

[Hahma]

Can the big tree be still used as a DO for the power purpose but not have a size (like the Castle Door) so it can't be thrown but still used for defense and so it can be destroyed to eliminate LOS blocker and take away opponent's defense boost? We could even bump up the lives because now it wouldn't affect the throwing damage.

[IAmBatman]

Yes. I think that's the right approach.

[Griffin]

I like where you are going on all of this Hahma. However, I am not sure if we really want to have the Trees in the Fan 4 set. The reason is that our layout for the scenarios would not likely include many trees, or any at all.

Baxter Building - Busy inner NY City
Mole Man's caves - Underground
Von Doom Castle - A Castle indoors
Negative Zone - Absolutely no trees
Statue of Liberty - All Statue and Water, no trees

So if we did include them, they would not likely be included in the campaign.

[A3n]

Negative Zone - Absolutely no trees

But I can envision them floating in mid air or growing upside-down :p

[IAmBatman]

Crap ... that's a good point. And battlements would be really nice for the Doom scenario ...

[Hahma]

Yeah, ditch the trees and bring back the battlements. Great point Griff!

[IAmBatman]

OK, but then we need to come to a consensus on the whole battlement issue! Time for another poll!

Do you prefer:

1) Having vertical (connected to terrain) battlements only in this set

2) Having horizontal (on the ground) battlements only in this set

3) Having both vertical and horizontal battlements in this set

4) Having no battlements in this set

I'm holding off on my own vote right now - want to see how things shake out a bit. :-)

[whitestuff]

I say number 3.

People can better choose what they want when there are sufficient things to choose from. More options the better IMHO.

[Hahma]

3 for me

There are a lot of nice flat places on A3n's Doom's Castle to throw the horizontal battlements that abound. Making it Vertical only would really restrict the battlement throwing options and that would be a shame as this map is designed for a battlement free for all. :D

[SirGalahad]

3 as well for me

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I would like to see a Vertical battlements become Horizontal Battlements option.

[Hahma]

I would like to see a Vertical battlements become Horizontal Battlements option.

I think that would already be an option Spidey. I believe if you throw a battlement, you would have the option of placing it vertically or horizontally and then using the appropriate card thereafter. I think they would offer different incentives for choosing one or the other. If you throw a battlement into a vertical position, damage from the Throw could only affect 2 figures (one on each side of the battlement), however being vertical would be easier to target for a ranged attack to cause debris damage. Throwing it to a horizontal position would give the potential for affecting all adjacent figures for throw damage, but the lower profile would make it harder to target later sometimes for ranged attacks trying to destroy it and cause debris damage.

Perhaps we can alter the different versions in that debris damage from a vertical battlement would be like it is and give auto wounds to the potential two adjacent figures, being that it's (the battlement) taller and only affecting two spaces. Whereas maybe since the horizontal battlemtent can affect more figures, perhaps because it has a lower profile, maybe it can only cause 1 wound to adjacent figures without the Super Strength power. This would give people more options strategically for how they want to place the thrown battlement when they have the option, becuase there will be times when they can only place it horizontally anyway. Also, placing it vertically can block a path and be fun that way at times too.

[A3n]

3 - Wait on did I just vote for more work :shock:

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, it'd be more work for all of us, but Griff especially, followed by you, A3n. If Griff opposes this, I'll side with him, because if he really doesn't want to take on the extra work right now, I'll understand it. But if he's up for the workload, then I think it's something that it's better to tackle sooner than later.

[Hahma]

Yeah, it'd be more work for all of us, but Griff especially, followed by you, A3n. If Griff opposes this, I'll side with him, because if he really doesn't want to take on the extra work right now, I'll understand it. But if he's up for the workload, then I think it's something that it's better to tackle sooner than later.

I agree, if it's too much of a workload for now then we can forget it. No biggie.

[SirGalahad]

Is the workload the wordsmithing, or the card making, or something else entirely?

Because I'd be happy to help with the wording.

[NecroBlade]

I subscribed to this thread but haven't been able to give it a read. I did just go over the rules in the first post, though, and is it just me or is a figure still allowed to perform its own attacks during its turn whether it throws a DO or not? I don't like that.

[A3n]

I subscribed to this thread but haven't been able to give it a read. I did just go over the rules in the first post, though, and is it just me or is a figure still allowed to perform its own attacks during its turn whether it throws a DO or not? I don't like that.

Yes, & I love it. Throw a sewer lid at a figure & whilst they are trying to recover charge them & snot them one. Classic Superhero fights there :up:.

Cheers

[IAmBatman]

Yes - the throwing of the DO is in addition to attacks, not in place of them. I think that was to clear up any confusion about "instead of attacking" powers. If it seems like too much in a turn, though, we could always keep its placement where it is but put a "if the figure didn't attack this turn" restriction on it or something (better wording required).
I haven't played with these yet, myself, though, so I don't know if it's something overpowering or not.

[NecroBlade]

I get that it could be flavorful, sure, but my concern is about "too many attacks." Supers are already going to either a) throw a lot of dice, b) throw dice multiple times, or c) both.

[IAmBatman]

And it's an understandable concern that I'd hope would be caught in playtesting if it's truly an issue.

[Griffin]

I appreciate the concerns about work load Bats, and I am willing to give the group my 110% towards what "we" want. I will vote for 3 not because that is what I necessarily want, but because I am willing to try and work towards giving the group what it wants.

3 for me. :)

[Spidey'tilIDie]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Griffin again. You are the man! We have missed you. :cry:

[IAmBatman]

I appreciate the concerns about work load Bats, and I am willing to give the group my 110% towards what "we" want. I will vote for 3 not because that is what I necessarily want, but because I am willing to try and work towards giving the group what it wants.

3 for me. :)

Sounds good. :-) I think that's our winner, then.

[Griffin]

We just need one more playtest here.

[Hahma]

We just need one more playtest here.

I'm going to do it with the Zoom Army Tests. :D

[Griffin]

Awesome! Bats told me that but I forgot. Thanks man.

[Hahma]

Here's test for Throwing DO's, Ruined Battlement, Battlement and Zoom's Army Test 1.

Army Test 1/ Does it pass? Pass
Played on Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh map with 4 Battlement DO’s and 2 Ruined Battlement DO’s in play.

Zoom (250) Absorbing Man (260) Grundy (290) Green Goblin (230) and Spidey (160) for 1190 points

Vs.

Martian Manhunter (300) Wonder Woman (300) Flash (250) Black Canary (190) and Green Arrow (150) for 1190 points.

R1 Grundy moves toward hill with 2 Battlements. Martian Manhunter moves toward Grundy and Directives Black Canary and Green Arrow 4 spaces each toward hill in opposite corner from Grundy, also with 2 Battlements. Grundy moves but can’t reach Battlement yet to throw. MM moves to top of hill Grundy is climbing and attacks with height but misses and then throws a Battlement at Grundy but no damage to either Grundy or Battlement (which is now a Ruined Battlement). MM Directives BC, GA, WW and Flash 4 spaces each. Green Goblin moves adjacent to a Ruined Battlement and attacks normal Battlement adjacent to Martian Manhunter and destroys it (if for nothing else than to keep MM from throwing it) and then GG throws Ruined Battlement at Flash but whiffs attack roll. Wonder Woman moves and Lassos Green Goblin to a lower space and pounds him for 3 wounds.

R2- WW wins initiative and kills GG with a 4/2 attack with height. Absorbing Man moves and attacks WW with Ball and Chain but misses. MM moves and attacks with height vs. Absorbing Man but misses with a 2/3 attack, he then Dispatches BC, WW, GA and Flash 4 spaces each. Absorbing Man moves to height and picks up Ruined Battlement and throws it at BC and GA but whiffs the attack roll. MM moves adjacent to Absorbing Man and misses with a 2/2 attack and he couldn’t Directive anyone. Grundy abandons the hill to get closer to the action that has moved to middle and opposite corner of map.

R3 – MM was hoping to win initiative in order to get away from Absorbing Man, but AM won it and Power Absorbed MM’s 6 defense to boost his attack up to 8 and then clobbered MM with a 5/1 attack for 4 wounds to the Martian. MM can now fly away to height and is out of ranged attack range so he throws a Ruined Battlement at AM for no wound, but the Ruined Battlement takes a wound and is destroyed, thus Debris puts a wound on Absorbing Man and knocks an Absorb Marker off to reduce his attack to 7. Directive allows Green Arrow to move to height. Grundy moves and attacks Flash but he Evades. WW moves to top of hill with MM on is and BC+GA on lower tier, then she Lassos Absorbing Man below her for a 4/4 attack as he stands tall against her. Zoom moves adjacent to WW, AM, BC and GA to release Lasso bond on AM and then attacks Black Canary for 3 wounds with a 4/1 attack. Martian Manhunter attacks with height vs. AM but misses with a 2/2 attack and Directs WW away so she can Lasso again next round.

R4 – Grundy spoils WW’s plan and moves adjacent to her and lays a 5/0 attack on her for 5 wounds. WW can’t Lasso anyone now, so she attacks Grundy for 2 wounds. Absorbing Man moves up to top of Hill to get adjacent to MM and kills him with a monstrous 6/3 attack with 7 attack dice. MM dead, no turn. Zoom goes back and forth from engagement with BC to try to put last wound on her with Negative Speed Force attack, but because of move eating elevation, he only gets 2 attacks and misses both. Flash moves adjacent to Absorbing man and puts a wound (2) on him with FF attack to remove another marker (4).

R5- Grundy kills WW with a 2/1 attack. WW dead no turn. Absorbing Man attacks (6) vs. Green Arrow but misses with a 1/1 attack. Flash misses 4 attacks vs. AM. Zoom misses a couple NSF attacks vs. BC (he should have attacked normally as his 5 attack might have gotten through to put last wound on her, but he had hoped to do so on first attack and then get an attack vs. Green Arrow). Flash puts another wound (3) on AM and takes another Absorb Marker off (3).

R6- The tide is starting to turn for the JL’ers. BC wins initiative and risks hurting GA when she lets lose with a 4 skull Canary Cry attack that put 1 wound on Zoom, 1 wound on GA (sorry babe) and 3 final wounds on Absorbing Man. Nice!. Absorbing Man is dead, no turn. Flash then moves to where AM was and has height for a normal attack vs. Zoom and kills him with a 4/0 attack (4 skulls for the attack roll and 4 skulls for the defense roll). Absorbing Man dead, no turn. Flash moves to put 1 wound (3) on Grundy. Zoom is dead, no turn.

R7- Grundy attacks Flash but he Evades. Green Arrow Skill Shot kills Grundy. BOM 10, Spidey moves and kills BC with his Web attack. Flash moves and misses normal attack vs. Spidey. BOM 14, Spidey leaves engagement to Swing up adjacent to Green Arrow and puts a wound on him. Flash moves and attacks Spidey but misses with a 1/3 attack.

R8- Flash attacks Spidey but he Senses it for a miss. BOM 5, Spidey misses Green Arrow. Flash misses Spidey with a 1/1 attack. BOM 2, Spidey kills Green Arrow. Flash lays down a 3 skull attack, but Spidey Senses it for a miss. BOM 11, Spidey misses Flash.

R9- Flash misses as Spidey Senses and misses. BOM 9, Spidey puts 1 wound on Flash. Flash hits Spidey back for 1 wound. BOM 6, Spidey misses Flash. Flash misses Spidey b/c of SS. BOM 15, Spidey misses Flash b/c of Evade.

R10- BOM 3, Spidey misses Flash. Flash puts a wound (2) on Spidey. BOM 8, Spidey misses Flash. Flash misses Spidey with a 4 skull attack b/c of SS. BOM 11, Spidey misses Flash. Flash misses Spidey.

R11- Flash misses Spidey b/c of SS. BOM 15, Spidey misses Flash b/c of Evade. Flash kills Spidey with a 4/0 attack after Spidey just missed SS with a roll of 10.

Flash wins with 1 wound on T3R11.

Zoom did okay. He used his speed to move far enough from SZ to break up Lasso on AM. He put 3 wounds on Black Canary but was sucker punched by Flash with a 4 skull attack in which Zoom also rolled 4 skulls, but too bad that doesn’t help him, so he died.

Fun game with some massive attack rolls vs. bad defense rolls. But there were some big defense rolls later that save people’s bacon.

DO’s were subtle and fun. Sometimes you can just happen to use them when not planning on it beforehand as circumstances sometimes offer the option to throw them. 1 attack die is subtle enough that it’s kind of hard to hurt someone even if you roll a skull, but if you can throw it to a higher space, then at least you can get 2 dice to attack with. Once the Battlement is thrown, it lands as a Ruined Battlement, so then if it misses the defense roll against itself, then that’s where the wounding can really be fun.

Overall fun game and it felt I still like Zoom at 250 as he just ran into some bad non-Evade luck at the wrong time. Same thing would have happened to Flash.

[IAmBatman]

OK, I made some small edits to the wording in the first post, but overall it looks good to me! :-) I think it's ready to go!
Do we need another playtest on it still? Or did Hahma do one and we just haven't gotten it linked yet?

[Hahma]

OK, I made some small edits to the wording in the first post, but overall it looks good to me! :-) I think it's ready to go!
Do we need another playtest on it still? Or did Hahma do one and we just haven't gotten it linked yet?

I did Throwing DO test with both battlement tests in the Zoom army test posted above.

Here's a blurb at the end of the report above regarding DO's.


DO’s were subtle and fun. Sometimes you can just happen to use them when not planning on it beforehand as circumstances sometimes offer the option to throw them. 1 attack die is subtle enough that it’s kind of hard to hurt someone even if you roll a skull, but if you can throw it to a higher space, then at least you can get 2 dice to attack with. Once the Battlement is thrown, it lands as a Ruined Battlement, so then if it misses the defense roll against itself, then that’s where the wounding can really be fun

[IAmBatman]

Doh! I'm stupid. I went to update the first post with that test from you, Hahma (thanks for the post, btw), and realized it's already there! :-P

[Hahma]

Stupid is such a strong word. :p

[A3n]

Stupid is such a strong word. :p
But in some cases it does not really capture the full gravity of the situation. :p

[Hahma]

Stupid is such a strong word. :p
But in some cases it does not really capture the full gravity of the situation. :p

Right, in some cases it's quite an understatement. :p

[IAmBatman]

:-( lol

[Hahma]

J/K of course :D

[IAmBatman]

Suuuuure. :-P lol.

[IAmBatman]

I propose we finalize these.

[Hahma]

yea

[GreyOwl]

yea

[whitestuff]

Yea

[A3n]

Yea

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Death Yes! These rules rock! :rock:

[SirGalahad]

Place the Destructible Object on a an empty space within a number of spaces equal to the range value corresponding to the size of Destructible Object and the figure throwing it (use the chart above as a reference).

Otherwise, people would try to throw DOs on top of other DOs or on top of figures.

[Hahma]

Nice change Sir G. :D

[Griffin]

Thanks Sir G. I have been meaning to read through this thing and edit it, but I have been putting it off.

[IAmBatman]

Good change, guys. :-)

[Griffin]

Place the Destructible Object on an empty space within a number of spaces equal to the range value corresponding to the size of the Destructible Object and the figure throwing it (use the chart above as a reference).


I caught that one little edit, but that was it. So yeah, this passes, albeit a bit late. :p

[IAmBatman]

Did you make the actual edit, or do I need to? :-P

[Griffin]

It was done the moment I saw it. ;)

[IAmBatman]

Awesome! Then this passes and GO and co can go ahead and start converting it to PDF form!

[A3n]

These rules need to be revised slightly in line with Griffins vision of how they work.

For Example:
TARGETING DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECTS

Instead of choosing a figure to attack, players may target a Destructible Object. Destructible Objects may be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is targeted and attacked. In addition, Destructible Objects with a size designation can be referenced in special powers and be affected as determined by that power. In these cases the power will refer to a Destructible Object of a certain size or height. Some examples would be: Magneto's Magnetic Throw and Jean Grey's Telekinesis.

In the bold section (not the heading :p) it is basically saying the card has to specify DOs to be affected by the powers, however Griffins vision (which I prefer we went along with) is that if it references figures of designated size &/or height then DOs be included. This vision is why we removed the mentioning of DOs on Gravitron & Red Tornado & also why we discussed changing Jean Grey's & Magneto's cards.

Cheers

[IAmBatman]

Good call. Is that the only section that needs changing?

TARGETING DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECTS
Instead of choosing a figure to attack, players may target a Destructible Object. Destructible Objects may be targeted for special powers and attacks and attacked the same way a figure is targeted and attacked. Some examples would be: (and here's where I run out of steam ... who can think of a good example that will be released by the time Fan Four is? Magneto and Jean Grey are out, since their powers are already worded incorrectly for these purposes).

[IAmBatman]

GO - maybe we should just do those updates on the text for Magneto and Jean Grey to take out the DO references ASAP instead of waiting?

[GreyOwl]

Yeah probably. I can update those tomorrow without having to redo all the fonts and everything to make them current. You want to send me the exact new wording?

[IAmBatman]

Just remove any references to destructible objects in the throw powers and the psionic grip power.

[A3n]

GO - maybe we should just do those updates on the text for Magneto and Jean Grey to take out the DO references ASAP instead of waiting?

& Strong Guy.

[GreyOwl]

Updated Jean Grey, Magneto, and Strong Guy.

I also noticed that Jean Grey's Telekinesis 12 only affects small or medium figures. Should it affect Tiny as well?

[IAmBatman]

Nah, they're too small for her to see/stop/throw. I'm cool with Wasp, Ant Man, and Atom being good future counters to Jean.

[Griffin]

:word:

[A3n]

That was one of the main reasons for making those guys Tiny, it avoided most of the powers based on size.

[Griffin]

That was one of the main reasons for making those guys Tiny, it avoided most of the powers based on size.
Exactly, and as far as I can tell, only Wasp, Antman, and Atom are going to get that size of Tiny, except for anyone shot by the Shrinking Ray gun of course. ;)

[IAmBatman]

Or Shrinking Violet. :-P

[A3n]

Or Shrinking Violet. :-P
No Shrinking Violet the Heroclix version is just an Attack Dial (no sculpt). :evil:

[IAmBatman]

Ah, OK, nevermind then. :-P Still, never know what Heroclix will come out with in the future.

[GreyOwl]

Okay, cool. Just wanted to check since we made these cards prior to coming up with "Tiny".

[IAmBatman]

OK, A3n, I've updated the wording in the first post here! :-) If anyone else wants to peruse the rules, though, I'm sure today is a good time.

[Griffin]

OK, A3n, I've updated the wording in the first post here! :-) If anyone else wants to peruse the rules, though, I'm sure today is a good time.
Really? You just updated it? Thanks but no thanks. Please don't do that again. Please give a list as to what you think should be updated, that way it can be seen and discussed.

Can you tell me what you updated please?

[IAmBatman]

Updated text in red.

C3G DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECT OPTIONAL RULES

Destructible Objects are an official inclusion in the game, as seen with the Fortress Door and the Destructible Wall. This optional rules set allows for the addition of mechanics that really bring out the flavor of Destructible Objects in superhero smash ups and send Destructible Objects flying around the battlefield.

Some C3G Destructible Object cards have size designations in the card’s left box. The size designations include Small, Medium, and Large. Only Destructible Objects with a size designation are affected by this Optional Rules set.
These rules cover the following areas:
Targeting Destructible Objects
Attacking and Defending Destructible Objects
Throwing Destructible Objects
Destroying Destructible Objects.TARGETING DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECTS

Instead of choosing a figure to attack, players may target a Destructible Object. Destructible Objects may be targeted and attacked in exactly the same way a figure is targeted and attacked. In addition, Destructible Objects with a size designation are considered to be the same as figures of that same size designation when it comes to special powers on Army Cards or glyphs.
Some examples would be: Magneto's Magnetic Throw and Jean Grey's Telekinesis where small or medium Destructible Objects can be moved the same way small or medium figures are with these powers.

ATTACKING AND DEFENDING DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECTS

A Destructible Object may be attacked by a normal attack, a special attack, or by special powers that only cause wounds. Add Height Advantage where appropriate. A Destructible Object may receive wounds the same way that a figure may receive wounds. A Destructible Object cannot be targeted or attacked by special powers that may "destroy" it in one attack. Any non-attacking player can roll defense for the Destructible Object.

THROWING DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECTS

Any figure with the Super Strength special power may throw Destructible Objects with size designations.
Please reference the chart below to see how far figures may throw various Destructible Objects:

Small Destructible Objects may be thrown up to 5 spaces by figures with the Super Strength special power.
Medium Destructible Objects may be thrown up to 4 spaces by figures with the Super Strength special power.
Large Destructible Objects may be thrown up to 3 spaces by figures with the Super Strength special power. Either immediately before taking a turn or immediately after taking a turn with an eligible, unengaged figure adjacent to one or more Destructible Objects, that figure may throw one Destructible Object. A figure can only throw a Destructible Object with this rule set once per turn.
That means that if a figure throws a Destructible Object before taking a turn, the same figure cannot throw a Destructible Object after taking the same turn.
To throw a Destructible Object before or after taking a turn with a figure with the Super Strength special power, choose one Destructible Object adjacent to the figure and use the chart above to determine how far the figure can throw it.
If the figure is allowed to throw the Destructible Object, you may remove the Destructible Object from the battlefield. Even if the Destructible Object is attached to other terrain or a hex space, you may still remove it.
Place the Destructible Object on an empty space within a number of spaces equal to the range value corresponding to the size of the Destructible Object (use the chart above as a reference).
Roll a number of attack dice equal to the remaining life points on the Destructible Object's Army Card once. The thrown Destructible Object and all other Destructible Objects and figures adjacent to the thrown Destructible Object are affected.
Affected figures (including the Destructible Object) roll defense dice separately. Because Throwing Destructible Objects at figures is neither a Normal Attack or Special Attack, special powers and glyphs that specifically work for or against Normal Attacks or Special Attacks, or both, cannot be used by a figure when rolling Attack dice for a thrown Destructible Object or when rolling Defense dice against a thrown Destructible Object. When a figure rolls defense dice against a thrown Destructible Object, determine the defending figure's height advantage (if any) against the thrown Destructible Object itself, not against the figure that threw it.
When throwing a Destructible Object larger than one hex in size, all target spaces must be on the same level, and the Destructible Object may never be placed on uneven terrain.

DESTROYING DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECTS

When a Destructible Object has as many Wound Markers as the Life number on its Army Card, it is destroyed. Remove the destroyed Destructible Object from the battlefield. Even if the Destructible Object is attached to other terrain or a hex space, you may still remove it. Figures can now move onto the spaces previously occupied by the Destructible Object.

[Hahma]

I like it Bats, nice work. Great to have the DO=figure of same size in there :D

[IAmBatman]

Thanks. :-) I only changed things that were previously discussed and agreed on by the group.

[Griffin]

Well that is good to know and see. Thanks.

[Griffin]

TARGETING DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECTS

Instead of choosing a figure to attack, players may target a Destructible Object. Destructible Objects may be targeted and attacked in exactly the same way a figure is targeted and attacked. In addition, Destructible Objects with a size designation are considered to be the same as figures of that same size designation when it comes to special powers on Army Cards or glyphs.
Some examples would be: Magneto's Magnetic Throw and Jean Grey's Telekinesis where small or medium Destructible Objects can be moved the same way small or medium figures are with these powers.

I think that the Magneto and Jean Grey examples are not confusing, but they don't FULLY exemplify what we are trying to convey, because both of their cards actually reference DOs. We need the reader to understand that figure=destructible object whether it is mentioned on their card or not.

For that reason, I want to edit Magneto and Jean Grey as we have previously discussed, so that they no longer mention Destructible objects at all, since the official rule on DO's is clear that they are equal to figures when it comes to targeting for special powers and attacks.

A vote is going up in the sanctum.

[IAmBatman]

I thought that was the plan already?

[SirGalahad]

THROWING DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECTS

Any figure with the Super Strength special power may throw Destructible Objects with size designations.
Please reference the chart below to see how far figures may throw various Destructible Objects:

Small Destructible Objects may be thrown up to 5 spaces by figures with the Super Strength special power.
Medium Destructible Objects may be thrown up to 4 spaces by figures with the Super Strength special power.
Large Destructible Objects may be thrown up to 3 spaces by figures with the Super Strength special power.

This redundancy is not necessary because the first line clearly specifies it.

[IAmBatman]

Good catch! I totally skimmed right over that.

[SirGalahad]

The text in the Fan 4 Rulebook references "the chart above", so those throwing distances need to be chartified.

[IAmBatman]

Yes, they do. :-)

[whitestuff]

The text in the Fan 4 Rulebook references "the chart above", so those throwing distances need to be chartified.
Just change the word chart for the word table... oh, and then put them in a table. :)

[Griffin]

I thought that was the plan already?
Your right, I forgot that those changes were already made.

[IAmBatman]

We should probably inform the public that the change has been made.
A3n - what type of visual would you like to do here? Chart? Table? Interpretive Salsa Dance? I'll update the OP accordingly. :-)

[A3n]

Oooo, I definitely prefer the interpretive salsa dance :D.

This is very hard because it's not really chart or table material. Maybe we could just have a separate heading like "Throwing distances for Destructible Objects" & refer back to that. :shrug:

[IAmBatman]

Or I could just take out the chart language and we could paste in the bullets as they are. Would that work?

[A3n]

Or I could just take out the chart language and we could paste in the bullets as they are. Would that work?

Yeah, but how are you going to refer back to it?

[IAmBatman]

hmm ... good point. Any thoughts?

[A3n]

hmm ... good point. Any thoughts?

Maybe we could just have a separate heading like "Throwing distances for Destructible Objects" & refer back to that. :shrug:

[IAmBatman]

That could work ... couldn't we put that on, like, a table, though? :-P

[Hahma]

To throw a Destructible Object before or after taking a turn with a figure with the Super Strength special power, choose one unoccupied Destructible Object adjacent to the figure and use the chart above to determine how far the figure can throw it.

I just got to thinking, shouldn't we add "unoccupied" as a stipulation for throwing DO's or Throwing them in the case of Magneto or Jean Grey.

Maybe I'm overlooking something that has been covered, if so I'm sorry. But my reasoning is that if a figure is standing on a DO, another figure shouldn't be able to throw that DO either by being adjacent and throwing it like the Hulk would or by being up to 4 spaces away and throwing it like Magneto would.

[IAmBatman]

Yep, you're absolutely right. The "unoccupied" got lost somewhere in editing. I believe it's on the list of changes on Griff's editing notes for the booklet.

[DEATHWALKER 1970]

When you throw a DO, is range counted from:
1) The space where the DO is, or
2) the space where the figure throwing it is?

The wording seems to imply 1) but it isn´t absolutely unmistakeably clear. In my oppinion, range should be counted from the space of the throwing figure, and this simple addition could work:

Place the Destructible Object on an empty space within a number of spaces from the throwing figure equal to the range value corresponding to the size of the Destructible Object (use the chart above as a reference).

Or am I completely missing something here?

[Griffin]

When you throw a DO, is range counted from:
1) The space where the DO is, or
2) the space where the figure throwing it is?

The wording seems to imply 1) but it isn´t absolutely unmistakeably clear. In my oppinion, range should be counted from the space of the throwing figure, and this simple addition could work:

Place the Destructible Object on an empty space within a number of spaces from the throwing figure equal to the range value corresponding to the size of the Destructible Object (use the chart above as a reference).

Or am I completely missing something here?
I agree with you that it isn't clear and that it should be thrown within relation to the figure throwing it.

I think this is one of those little paragraphs that Bats "doctored up" while I wasn't looking, cause I sure as heck didn't write it.

Place the Destructible Object on an empty space within a number of spaces equal to the range value corresponding to the size of the Destructible Object (use the chart above as a reference).

I know this clarifies it, but is this a good way to word it?


Place the Destructible Object on an empty space within X number of spaces of the figure that is throwing it. (use the chart above to determine the value of X).

[IAmBatman]

Your version was closer to:

Place the Destructible Object on an empty space within a number of spaces equal to the range value corresponding to the type of figure and the size of the Destructible Object (use the chart above as a reference).

So, yeah, not much different. :-P

[Griffin]

Hmmm.... not really a productive post there Bats, mostly defensive. :p

How can you help where we are at now? Do you like my newest suggestion or is there something better?


I know this clarifies it, but is this a good way to word it?


Place the Destructible Object on an empty space within X number of spaces of the figure that is throwing it. (use the chart above to determine the value of X).

[IAmBatman]

How about

Using the chart above as a reference, determine how far the figure can throw the Destructible Object. Place the Destructible Object on any empty space within this number of spaces from the figure throwing it.

[IAmBatman]

Don't worry, didn't touch the rules text. Just trying to get the OP here to look a little bit more consistent with our other optional rules books. I'll go looking for a good "throwing DO" comic image we can use for the front of a PDF.

[IAmBatman]

We can go classic:

http://technabob.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/superman-lifting-car.jpg

The Spidey spin on the last one:

http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/amazing-spider-man/306-2.jpg

A Fan Four related option ... though not sure about the DO there ...

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/1/11352/1363200-8_30_2010_3_24_55_pm.jpg

Same ... these are hard to find!

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/35895/914360-thing_color.jpg

Edit: Some more

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/229/602041-1.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/26454/522568-6.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/502597-thing_steve_mcniven06.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/94225-67689-thing.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/40/78117-28648-thing.jpg

[A3n]

Oooo, I like this one:
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/502597-thing_steve_mcniven06.jpg

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, I think that's my favorite too. :-)

[Hahma]

Looks like a winner. :D

[Griffin]

I don't think that one is all that clear that a super hero is throwing an object...

[GreyOwl]

I like the 4th one, with the Thing holding the chunk of concrete.

[whitestuff]

I like the 'batter's up' feel of this one...

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/94225-67689-thing.jpg

[Hahma]

I don't think that one is all that clear that a super hero is throwing an object...

Well that's true, it's more of a smash than a throw, though it's a pretty cool picture. 8)

I like the 4th one, with the Thing holding the chunk of concrete.

Of all of them, I guess this one looks the most like he's going to throw it instead of hit something with it.

[IAmBatman]

He kinda looks naked in the 4th one though. :-P It also has a computer generated feel I don't like.
If you guys can find anything that looks more like DOs being thrown, though, please find them! These were really hard to dig up.

[Hahma]

What about the 3rd one (which I actually meant before when I said 4th I miscounted ), he has clothes on and looks like he's about to throw that chunk of asphalt. Kind of old school art though.

[GreyOwl]

Does it have to be a FF4 character? I think it might be easier to find a picture of the Hulk throwing a tank or something.

[IAmBatman]

It doesn't have to be. I tried finding some pics of Hulk throwing stuff and ended up just going through Thing's whole gallery on comicvine looking for any pics that would be relevant.
Hulk and Supes are already on the Knockback rules booklet, though, so I thought it might be nice to spread the love a little. :-)

[IAmBatman]

OK, this is the best option I've been able to find and probably the best one (in my opinion) that anyone is going to find ... everyone OK rolling with this one?

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/35698/728597-giant_sizehulk1.jpg

[Griffin]

Yep, that was my favorite as well. :up:

[A3n]

Looks good to me. Hopefully it won't pixelate too much in the enlargement.

Cheers

[IAmBatman]

That's what she said ... ?

[A3n]

That's what she said ... ?
:cry:.

[SirGalahad]

Awful, just awful.

The joke, not the pic. I like the pic.

[A3n]

Booklet is up in the OP.

Cheers

[IAmBatman]

Thanks! :-) Everything's looking really close for release now!

[A3n]

done

[tcglkn]

Jean is ready to Toss some DOs around.
http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad317/tcglkn/C3G%20Art%20and%20Stuff/JeanGreyDOToss.jpg

[A3n]

great pic Tcglkn. :thumbsup:

[IAmBatman]

Hah! We totally faked you guys out on these. :-D

[Hahma]

These rules seem to be getting lots of love. 8)

[Good Pig]

I'm pumped. Magneto and Jean are going to be whipping stuff around like crazy. :)

[tcglkn]

I'm pumped. Magneto and Jean are going to be whipping stuff around like crazy. :)

Jean already started. Look up. ;)

[Good Pig]

I'm pumped. Magneto and Jean are going to be whipping stuff around like crazy. :)

Jean already started. Look up. ;)

Ahhh! It's comin' right for us! :p

[davidlhsl]

That brings up a question: If Jean Grey or Magneto use their abilities to move a D.O., would you then follow the D.O. Rules for throwing objects, or do those rules only apply when throwing at the beginning/ending of a turn?

[IAmBatman]

Those rules only apply during that special phase. Now any powers on a DO's card that would activate based on the DO taking damage would still apply. But you just place and damage the DO as if it were a figure being affected by Jean or Magneto's powers.

[quozl]

Are destructible objects ever "engaged"? It makes a difference on a few figures' special powers.

[LordEsenwienIV]

Small spelling error in the bio.

What do superheroes do when an object stands in their way? Well they either destroy it, or they chuck that crap in any direction they feel like. Goodbye city buses, and hello unlimited curbside parking

[IAmBatman]

Are destructible objects ever "engaged"? It makes a difference on a few figures' special powers.

Nope. DOs don't have opponents and engagement necessitates adjacency to an opponent's figure.

[quozl]

I'm looking through the powers now and noticed something weird. Elektra and Flash can move through all figures. Since destructible objects are treated as figures in special powers, that means they can move through all destructible objects.

Then I wondered about figures moving on top of destructible objects (which I'm pretty sure you intended) but there isn't any rule about it saying they're treated as terrain for all movement purposes.

Should we just rule that way as I'm sure that's the intention and not let movement based powers apply to destructible objects?

[SirGalahad]

I'm looking through the powers now and noticed something weird. Elektra and Flash can move through all figures. Since destructible objects are treated as figures in special powers, that means they can move through all destructible objects.

Then I wondered about figures moving on top of destructible objects (which I'm pretty sure you intended) but there isn't any rule about it saying they're treated as terrain for all movement purposes.

Should we just rule that way as I'm sure that's the intention and not let movement based powers apply to destructible objects?

Back up. The DO rules equate DOs to figures for the following:


• Targeting Destructible Objects
• Attacking and Defending Destructible Objects
• Throwing Destructible Objects
• Destroying Destructible Objects

There isn't anything in there about figures moving through them.

[IAmBatman]

The precedent for a DO you can move on comes from the Destructible Wall Section, so we should follow the precedent there.

[quozl]

I'm looking through the powers now and noticed something weird. Elektra and Flash can move through all figures. Since destructible objects are treated as figures in special powers, that means they can move through all destructible objects.

Then I wondered about figures moving on top of destructible objects (which I'm pretty sure you intended) but there isn't any rule about it saying they're treated as terrain for all movement purposes.

Should we just rule that way as I'm sure that's the intention and not let movement based powers apply to destructible objects?

Back up. The DO rules equate DOs to figures for the following:


• Targeting Destructible Objects
• Attacking and Defending Destructible Objects
• Throwing Destructible Objects
• Destroying Destructible Objects

There isn't anything in there about figures moving through them.

Yeah, there is. Here's a quote from the rulebook:
In addition, Destructible Objects with a
size designation are considered to be the same as figures of that same size
designation when it comes to special powers on Army Cards or glyphs.

[quozl]

The precedent for a DO you can move on comes from the Destructible Wall Section, so we should follow the precedent there.

In the Marvel rules, the only destructible object is the breakaway wall section. The actual warehouse ruin is the only thing you can put a figure on. (And only figures are allowed on it!)

[IAmBatman]

I guess I'm not sure what you're asking about, then.

[SirGalahad]

If the DOs with size distinctions are treated like figures for "all" special powers, then Elektra shouldn't have to climb over a Battlement DO, she should be able to Phantom Walk through it, etc. That's the first part.

The second part is we don't say anywhere that figures can move onto DOs (although we show a picture for the Turbo Lift), like figures move on terrain.

Those are his issues.

[IAmBatman]

If the DOs with size distinctions are treated like figures for "all" special powers, then Elektra shouldn't have to climb over a Battlement DO, she should be able to Phantom Walk through it, etc. That's the first part.

The second part is we don't say anywhere that figures can move onto DOs (although we show a picture for the Turbo Lift), like figures move on terrain.

Those are his issues.

I think Griff is the final authority on rules questions for the DOs, but my impression is that Elektra would be able to phantom walk through the space containing the DO with a size (not through the actual DO, just through its space, she's not intangible) and you'd be able to climb onto a DO that's occupying a space (so not battlements on a castle wall, but destroyed battlements) and their height would help you figure out how much movement that required.

[quozl]

It's pretty clear that's the intention. It's just not spelled out anywhere i could see.

However, what's the difference between moving through a space and a DO?

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I would say the very premise that the Wharehouse Ruin is a DO now makes that clear. Official rules make it so it can be walked on and we in turn made it a DO, hence DO's can be walked on.

[IAmBatman]

It's pretty clear that's the intention. It's just not spelled out anywhere i could see.

However, what's the difference between moving through a space and a DO?

Mechanically? Nothing. Just explaining what's going on thematically for all our theme nerds out there. :-P

[quozl]

OK, I can assume the rules for moving on top of destructible objects but with movement powers treating them as figures, figures with Phantom Walk can now move through battlements instead of having to move over them.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

OK, I can assume the rules for moving on top of destructible objects but with movement powers treating them as figures, figures with Phantom Walk can now move through battlements instead of having to move over them.
And? (I mean you are talking about Elektra, a ninja, and Flash, a guy who can literally run up walls, on water, and through objects.) I don't see the problem.

[IAmBatman]

Sounds right to me.

Edit: I don't think he's saying it's a problem, Spidey, just trying to make sure he's doing it correctly. :-)

[Griffin]

OK, I can assume the rules for moving on top of destructible objects but with movement powers treating them as figures, figures with Phantom Walk can now move through battlements instead of having to move over them.
I know that this is contrary to what the others have said, but no. Agent Carr cannot move through the castle wall, and Flash cannot move through a battlement.

The rule books say that Destructible Objects are an object that can be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is targeted and attack.

figures =/= destructible objects, except for targeting and attacking purposes.

[quozl]

Thanks, Griff! That's what I figured the intention was. Let me know if you need help so it reads that way too.

[davidlhsl]

Just to back up quozl, I was reading it the same way (DO's treated as figures for all special abilities).

Perhaps:

In addition, Destructible Objects with a size designation are considereed to be the same as figures of the same size designation when it comes to special powers on Army Cards or glyphs that allow you to choose or select figures.

[quozl]

Or:

Destructible Objects are considered to be part of the battlefield for purposes of movement.

[Griffin]

I think it is already very clear, as we used official wording from the rulebooks. I don't think anything needs updating, just people should read what the book says, not what it doesn't.

[quozl]

The FF rulebook says:

In addition, Destructible Objects with a
size designation are considered to be the same as figures of that same size
designation when it comes to special powers on Army Cards or glyphs.

No rulebook says that figures may move onto destructible objects.

[Porkins]

A couple questions came up while my son and I were playing the other day:

Does height advantage apply to a thrown destructible object?

When throwing a destructible object is height increase ignored when figuring the distance the object can be thrown?

The card for ruined battlement states that when it is destroyed, all figures adjacent and on top of it receive one wound. If a non-ruined battlement (ie-one that has not been picked up off the map and thrown yet) is attacked and destroyed, does it cause wounds to adjacent figures?

[Wolvie]

I actually haven't started using these rules yet, anyone want's to share their experience, and by that, get me excited enough to start using..
(No critique, just too lazy to get them started)

[davidlhsl]

A couple questions came up while my son and I were playing the other day:

Does height advantage apply to a thrown destructible object?
Height advantage is based on the thrown object where it lands. If the object lands near Black Canary, and Black Canary is one level higher then the place where the object is thrown, Black Canary gets height advantage. Do not consider height advantage based on the figure throwing the object.

When throwing a destructible object is height increase ignored when figuring the distance the object can be thrown?
Only the size title of the object (small/medium/large) determines distance thrown. The height number, as well as the height from which the object is thrown, is irrelevant.

Edit: On second thought, you may be asking whether you count elevation changes. I don't think so, because you're placing the object rather than moving it.

The card for ruined battlement states that when it is destroyed, all figures adjacent and on top of it receive one wound. If a non-ruined battlement (ie-one that has not been picked up off the map and thrown yet) is attacked and destroyed, does it cause wounds to adjacent figures?
A normal battlement doesn't become a ruined battlement until it is thrown (or placed onto the map during setup as a ruined battlement). If a regular battlement is destroyed, it is not a ruined battlement and doesn't do any damage.



Important Disclaimer: I usually embarrass myself when I try to answer these type of questions, as I am usually 90% WRONG! :lol: So, Caveat emptor.

[quozl]

I think you're all right!

[Porkins]

A couple questions came up while my son and I were playing the other day:

Does height advantage apply to a thrown destructible object?
Height advantage is based on the thrown object where it lands. If the object lands near Black Canary, and Black Canary is one level higher then the place where the object is thrown, Black Canary gets height advantage. Do not consider height advantage based on the figure throwing the object. That the defending figure gets height advantage, if applicable, is clear enough from the manual. What I was not sure about was whether the thrown object gets height advantage if it lands one or more levels above the defending figure's base. Because the manual says, "Roll a number of attack dice equal to the remaining life points on the DO's army card once," and not "blah blah Normal Attack blah blah", I wasn't sure.

When throwing a destructible object is height increase ignored when figuring the distance the object can be thrown?
Only the size title of the object (small/medium/large) determines distance thrown. The height number, as well as the height from which the object is thrown, is irrelevant.

Edit: On second thought, you may be asking whether you count elevation changes. I don't think so, because you're placing the object rather than moving it. This means that, if standing in the right spot, a figure could throw a car from Liberty Island up onto the top of the Statue of Liberty's head. That's a heck of a lot of strength. That might be SUPER Strength.

The card for ruined battlement states that when it is destroyed, all figures adjacent and on top of it receive one wound. If a non-ruined battlement (ie-one that has not been picked up off the map and thrown yet) is attacked and destroyed, does it cause wounds to adjacent figures?
A normal battlement doesn't become a ruined battlement until it is thrown (or placed onto the map during setup as a ruined battlement). If a regular battlement is destroyed, it is not a ruined battlement and doesn't do any damage. This was kind of my gut reaction, but I wanted to see what others understood.


Important Disclaimer: I usually embarrass myself when I try to answer these type of questions, as I am usually 90% WRONG! :lol: So, Caveat emptor.

I added a few comments above in blue.

[IAmBatman]

The DO attack isn't a normal attack and doesn't behave like one. i.e. it's not modified like one, so no height advantage or anything else like that.
And yes, you do need super strength to throw DOs. :-P

[davidlhsl]

That the defending figure gets height advantage, if applicable, is clear enough from the manual. What I was not sure about was whether the thrown object gets height advantage if it lands one or more levels above the defending figure's base. Because the manual says, "Roll a number of attack dice equal to the remaining life points on the DO's army card once," and not "blah blah Normal Attack blah blah", I wasn't sure.


From the rulebook:
When a figure rolls Defense dice against a thrown Destructible Object, determine the defending figure’s height advantage (if any) against the thrown Destructible Object itself, not against the figure that threw it.

So height bonus only applies to defense, not the attack itself.

Good questions, btw. :) I hope I'm helping.

[Porkins]

And yes, you do need super strength to throw DOs. :-P

I think it's more like SUPER strength. Throwing a car across the street three spaces is one thing (not that I could do it). But throwing a car up to the top of a large (essentially infinite) number of levels is, well, infinite.

[quozl]

You could house-rule a height limit if you like.

[davidlhsl]

Related to the height issue, I just realized something (and please correct me if I'm wrong):

When you defend against a thrown object, you have to be adjacent to the space where the object is thrown.

You are not adjacent if your base is on a level equal to or higher than the height of the other figure/object, per the definition of adjacent in the D&D rulebook.

A ruined battlement has a size of 1. Some other objects (manhole cover) also have a height of 1.

Therefore, if you throw an object such as battlement or manhole cover, you need to place it on a same-level or no higher than the the height of the figure you're throwing it at. Otherwise, it's not adjacent. In my example with Black Canary at a height higher than where the object was thrown, if the object thrown was a battlement (becoming a ruined battlement upon landing), then Black Canary would not even need to roll defense since she's not adjacent.

[tcglkn]

That is correct david. Also since throwing a DO is not exactly a normal attack and because it says to roll dice equal to the remaining life of the DO, I do not think they gain a height advantage.

[Griffin]

Does height advantage apply to a thrown destructible object?

If you are referring to the "attack" aspect of it, then NO. Throwing a DO is not a true attack or special attack, and so the DO cannot receive height advantage as part of its "attack".

When throwing a destructible object is height increase ignored when figuring the distance the object can be thrown?

You know the answer to that. NO. Its a game, have fun with it. If you need to, make a house rule, but don't be surprised when most of us don't feel the need to use it. Official Scape has ranged attacks that are not limited by height.... I learned to deal with that a long time ago. :p

The card for ruined battlement states that when it is destroyed, all figures adjacent and on top of it receive one wound. If a non-ruined battlement (ie-one that has not been picked up off the map and thrown yet) is attacked and destroyed, does it cause wounds to adjacent figures?NO. The Battlement and the Ruined Battlement are two separate DOs. The Battlement can become a Ruined Battlement, but until it does, you cannot use any special power from the Ruined Battlement's card, because it doesn't exist yet.