UTAH: 5th annual NHSD Oct. 9, 2010 -- "Wasatch Warfare"

[UtahScott]

"Utah Soundoff" (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=126) thread
Utah 2010 NHSD Battle report thread (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=32871) (with pictures)Utah (Wasatch Front) Fifth Annual National HeroScape Day -- "Wasatch Warfare"
Saturday Oct. 9, 2010 -- 11:30am - 5pm.
Bingham Creek County Library (http://www.slcolibrary.org/gl/glal/libraryBinghamCreek.htm) meeting room
4834 West 9000 South. 50-person capacity.
http://www.slcolibrary.org/bin/b/h/binghamCreek.jpg450-point armies, 24 hexes maximum, any combo. No Marvel or customs allowed, as usual.
Five 45-minute Swiss rounds w/ 15-minute breaks.
Mixed Adult/youth, youth brackets included.
30-minute lunch/snack break near the third round.

Check-in is anytime after 10am. Be there at least 30 minutes early to sign in, get matched up and look around.
The first round starts at 11:30.Battlefields: Six map categories this year, two paired maps per category,
24 maps total for 48 players. All Master Sets and terrain (except Marvel) were used.
Three types have Power Glyphs, two have Power / Treasure glyphs, one has only Treasure glyphs.

2010 map links - pictured in the following post.
(43 players & 2 TDs -- @ Bingham Creek County Library)
basic) A Stone's Throw (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=1640)
basic) Riposte (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=2207)
road) Elswin Plateau (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=1885) (BoV) - [P & T]
road) Migol's Gate (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=2002) [P & T]
lava) Boiling Point (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=2209)
lava) Dragon's Gulch (http://www.mediafire.com/?rjyui0ukzm1)

snow) Jagged Causeway (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=2492) (heavy snow)
snow) Out Cold (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=1821) (normal ice/snow)
castle) Wasaru Castle (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=288) [P & T]
castle) Shrine of Mo-Ne-Ca (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=2530) (Hive mod) - [P & T]
trees) Fulcrum (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=1766) (later BoV) [T only]
trees) Blackroot (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=2273) (later BoV) - [T only]

Glyph ListRandom Power Glyphs: (Astrid--attack +1--is included on set glyph maps)
Dagmar (Initiative)
Gerda (Defense)
Kelda (Heal)
Erland (Summoning)
Valda (Move +2)
Crevcor (Common Attack)
Ulaniva (Unique Attack)
Wannok (Wound)

Treasure Glyphs: (last-minute list)
Attack +1
Defense +1
Potion of Healing (heal 3 wounds)
Move +4

Treasure glyph trap: (poison trap, tourney-wide) roll d20 --
on a roll of 1-5, opponent rolls 2 unblockable attack dice against hero.
(Could be nothing, one or two wounds)
Round setup:Reminder for future tournaments: Ideally, different maps each round. If both have played a map, swap maps.
Record opponent, review each army's figures.
If a split start zone map (two of twelve) -- roll d20; starting with winner,
players alternate placing one army card of figures on the map until all figures are placed. (GenCon Heat of Battle rules)

all other maps: simultaneous army placement.
face-down power glyphs are revealed. (GenCon rules)
Place order markers.
Game begins. Roll d20; winner goes first.
At 40 minutes, players get 5-minute warning.
When time is called, both players finish the current turn.
Points are tallied for entire army card kills only (both players)
Shuffle the map's random power glyphs, place them (and treasure glyphs) face down.
Report game results to tournament director.2010 rankingsAdult rankings (36)
http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/2/6/1/2010_nhsd_rankings_a_original.png

Kid Rankings (7)
http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/2/6/1/2010_nhsd_rankings_b_original.png
Top 15 (or so) army builds1) ScottManDeath (5-0) Greenscale Warriors x3, Nilf, RotV Raelin
2) BiggaBullfrog (5-0) Fen Hydra, Warforged x3, Heirloom
3) Vivaldi (4-1) Major Q9, Tornak, Nerak, Blade Gruts x3
4) ortimus (4-1) Minions of Utgar x3, Airborne Elite, Isamu
5) Andrew (4-1) Greenscale Warriors x2, Braxas, RotV Raelin, Theracus
6) The B.I.V. (4-1) Ornak, Krug, Cyprien, Blade Gruts x2
7) beisaic (3-2) Deathreavers x2, Stingers x2, Deathwalker 8000, Fen Hydra
8 ) tannergx (3-2) Axegrinders of Burning Forge x4, Mogrimm, Brave Arrow
9) Jessica (3-2) Charos, Kaemon Awa, Krav Maga Agents, Marcu Eisenwein
10) Kyle (3-2) Shurrak, Q10, Krav Maga Agents, Guilty McCreech
11) Cecily (3-2) Q10, Krug, Deathreavers x1, Kelda, Izumi Samurai
12) Onslaught (3-2) Nilfheim, Estivara, each Wyrmling x1, Greenscale Warriors
13) Bryce (3-2) Grimnak, Arrow Gruts x2, Blade Gruts x2, Swog Riders x2, Nerak, Blue Wyrmling x2
14) Jaxon (3-2) Laglor, DeadEye Dan, Major Q9, Krav Maga Agents
15) wjscaper (3-2) Kurrok, Theracus, Elementals: Fire x3, Water x3, Air x2, Earth
16) Jeremiah (3-2)
17) Bruce (3-2) Fen Hyrda x2, Phantom Knights x3
18 ) Illgotten (3-2)
19) John (2-3)
20) Joel (2-3)
...43)
NHSD Oct. 9 - 43 players + 2 TDs (final, need to talk to KingKorman):
1) UtahScott
2) The B.I.V.
3) wjscaper
4) BiggaBullfrog (Vernal)
5-6) Beisaic +1
7) Library kid
8-9) ScottManDeath +1
10) Deadmaxx (NV)
11-15) Onslaught +4 (Ut. County)
16) tannergx
17) HokshilaTo
18 ) Vivaldi
19) Tiranx (ID)
20-25) KingKorman +5 (Ut. County)
26-27) ortimus +1
28-30) Bangerters
31-33) Illgotten +2
34) Library kid
35-36) KingKorman +2 more

Changes:
(-5) Bro-man, Rich family are out.
(-3) Friends of Beisaic & Tiranx are out.
(+2) two library kids
(+2) two more Korman neighbor kids
Also, two other kids won't be playing the whole time.

Mythacle's Battleplan database (http://battleplan.mythacle.com/heroscape/) is the comprehensive tool for army drafting.


Previous Utah NHSD maps2009 link (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=26756) (520 pts., 41 'Scapers; 46 gamers total -- @ Bingham Creek County Library)
BoV--Hot Heights (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=238) (lava)
BoV--Sidewinder (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=793) (tundra)
BoV--Badru Valley (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=367) (road/forest)
BoV--Can't See the Jungle (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=951) (fragmented start zones)
BoV--Embattled Fen (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=134) (swamp road)
(later BoV) Invasion (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=796) (jungle road)
each map x3; Sidewinder & Embattled Fen had additional copies

2008 link (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=21226) (540 pts., 22 -- @ Sugarhouse's Game Night Games)
BoV–Fire Isles (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=241) (lava)
BoV–Road Rampage (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=240) (road/forest)
BoV–Ticalla Sunrise (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=606) (jungle/swamp)
Hide & Seek (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=418) (Marvel/road/tundra)

2007 link (http://heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=416705#post416705) (500 pts., 17 +1 -- @ Sugarhouse's Game Night Games)
BoV--Ember Canyon Road (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=235) (lava/road)
BoV--Highways & Dieways (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=234) (road/forest)
BoV--Broken Skyline (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=236) (castle/road)
Hot Bog (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=244) (swamp/lava)
the Frozen Stair (tundra)
Klomar's Training Ground–Location 6 (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=589)

2006 (3 or 8 -- @ Sugarhouse & Springville, respectively)
Nerak's Passage (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=101) (tundra)
Ancient Lookout (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=83) (road/castle)
Searing Pass–official
Wolf Swamp Road–official

Players:ortimus (1st place--others unknown)
UtahScott, Tony, Nickmodaily, Harkers,
Agent Minivann & Jr. Agent Minivann

[UtahScott]

2010 Maps:3 Swamp maps, 3 BftU and 6 RotV maps this year.
Six have road, five have trees/brush, two split start zone maps.
Two were made by locals (tannergx and BiggaBullfrog), four are from Dignan.
HokshilaTo & BiggaBullfrog helped choose this year--thanks!
Additional thanks to Hok (again), wjscaper & tannergx for map building1) basic RotV: darkmage7a's A Stone's Throw, Riposte
http://www.heroscapers.com/downloads//a%20stone%27s%20throw_CqS.jpg
http://www.heroscapers.com/downloads//riposte_fgb.jpg

2) road: Elswin Plateau (BoV map) and Migol's Gate
http://www.heroscapers.com/downloads//elswin%20plateau_xzd_1QU.jpg
Velenne's Migol's Gate
http://www.heroscapers.com/downloads//migol%27s%20gate%20-%20overview_TVD.jpg

3) lava: Boiling Point and Dragon's Gulch
http://www.heroscapers.com/downloads//boilingpoint_xsb.jpg
BiggaBullfrog's Dragon's Gulch
http://i983.photobucket.com/albums/ae316/BiggaBullfrog/DragonsGulch.jpg?t=1270078254

4) snow/ice: Jagged Causeway (heavy snow) and stubobj's Out Cold (normal ice/snow)
http://www.heroscapers.com/downloads//jaggedcauseway_O87.jpg
http://www.heroscapers.com/downloads//out%20cold2_EgI.jpg

5) castle/pillars: LongHeroScaper's Wasaru Castle, Shrine of Mo-Ne-Ca (Hive mod)
http://www.heroscapers.com/downloads//wasaru%20castle%2001%20%28medium%29_3mM.jpg
http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=6565&original=1

6) "greens": Fulcrum and Blackroot (both later BoV)
http://www.heroscapers.com/downloads//fulcrum_mB5.jpg
http://www.heroscapers.com/downloads//blackroot1_RLh.jpg

[HokshilaTo]

Another Dignan map suggestion (they are so good). I've been playing on this one lately and really enjoy it. Fulcrum

A bridge too far by Aeston
This map uses one RotV, one SotM, and one RttFF

GameBear's Maps - I haven't played these, but they look like fun.
Floodgates (1 SM + 1 MH + 1 FA)

Spineback Ridge (1 MS + 1 FA)

Subterranean Sparks by Sup3rS0n1c (2 BftU and 1 VW)

Knophree Pass by Tog (1 RotV and 1 RttFF)

Migol's Gate by Velenne (2BftU, 1FotA)

Anyway, These looked interesting to me. I know some of them have road, just thought I'd throw them into the pool.

[BiggaBullfrog]

More suggestions; *=especially like.

Here are a couple more from tannergx.

This one looks fun, although there are voids if there are issues with that. Also has road, but uses columns well.
*Crossfire Catacombs

And, if Marvel terrain is available, these three are good options.
*Flooded Crypt

Cursed Fountains

*Recessed Atrium
We could even throw some Treasure Glyphs on that last one (it doesn't have any glyphs anyway, and I for one would like to see Treasure glyphs on a fair amount of maps).

Here are a couple from stubobj that look like fun.

This one looks like it could be either really fun, or a nightmare to play on, but I'm thinking fun.
Frigid Elevations

This one looks interesting, although placing figures at the beginning might be problematic.
*Out Cold

Tropic Thunder


Last one that I really like:
*Elswin Plateau

Other maps mentioned I *:

A Stone's Throw, Riposte, Dragon's Gulch (yeah, I'm biased), Jagged Causeway, Shrine of Mo-Ce-Na, Black Gold, Blackroot, Fulcrum, and Migol's Gate. Yeah, it's a lot, but there's a lot of good maps.

[Rÿchean]

Please make sure this event is posted in the WotC prize support thread:

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=32440

Event organizer also needs to PM me mailing information.

Thank you

[UtahScott]

Done--we're in the loop.

[tannergx]

I've finalized the modifications UtahScott asked for on Shrine of Mo-Ne-Ca (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=2530):

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/4/9/7/1/shrine_of_mo_ne_ca_v4_01.jpg (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=6565&original=1)

The power glyphs are both set, and should be displayed powerside up at the start of the game - 1 x Gerda and 1 x Valda. The unknown glyph markers under the Shrine complex denote treasure glyphs. Treasure glyphs can be random and placed powerside down as normal. Of note, I'm not sure what the trap will be for the tournament, and I suspect this should be agreed upon before too long.

In playtesting, I found the power glyph placements to be important and that's why they are set. If the placement in front of the Hive is weak, there is little reason for most armies to head that way. And 2 reasonably strong glyphs keeps more action on the ground than you'd expect.

Sorry for the late update to those that like to test their army on the maps pre-event.

Cheers,

~tgx

[UtahScott]

Thanks, tgx! I've added in the new picture, but the download link will have to be added after the tourney.

[tannergx]

I've added in the new picture, but the download link will have to be added after the tourney.

I replaced the download at the old link, so everything is good.

[wjscaper]

Thanks to everyone who attended the event!!!

I believe all had fun. I always look forward to this game day.

A special thanks to the map makers and organizers and those who donated the prizes.

Also, Scott I think it would be fun if we could post everyone's stats and game win loss records here for all to see.

I encourage everyone to leave there feed back here. Give some positive thoughts on the event.

[BiggaBullfrog]

It was great fun. Getting to meet so many other 'scapers was a blast, playing against them even more so. I also finally got to play on Jungle and Tundra maps-my 'scaper dream has come true.

Records would be fun to see. Also, here's a link (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=32871) to the Battle Report thread Scott started for this.

[UtahScott]

Also, here's a link (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=32871) to the Battle Report thread Scott started for this.What Bigga said.
I don't mind having two different places to post reflections on the tournament, though.

I need to get tournament results printouts from KingKorman, then I can post them.

Over in the Battle Report thread, we already have detailed play-by-plays from Bigga & ScottManDeath.

[Deadmaxx]

Hiya just wanted to say I made it back safe in sound from the long drive back to good old Wendover, NV...:) Finally nice to meet a lot of you! I'm pretty sure I'll be out again to get my butt wooped over n' over at Heroscape. :)

Brian Blake

[UtahScott]

Looks like everyone made it home okay, good.

We can use this thread for the smaller details of the tournament.
I'll be putting my thoughts down later, but for now I'd like feedback from everybody:

1) How was the tournament, generally? Compared to previous years?
2) How was the room setup, easier to move around?
3) Which maps did you like/not like? Which would you recommend to others?
4) What army cards/army combos impressed you? Which fell short of your expectations?
5) What was your impression of other players? Good/bad anecdotes?
6) What was missing (besides adequate chairs)--what things were confusing, missing, not covered?
7) How was the pre-tournament organization? What needed adjustment? What can be improved for next year?

[BiggaBullfrog]

I'll take a shot at this, though I'm not sure how helpful my answers will be:

1) I thought it was awesome! I can't really compare it to previous years, or other tournaments (for I have been to neither) but I loved that you took the time to set it up so we could meet other 'scapers and duke it out. Definitely going to more, if/when I can.
2) I could get around easily enough when my matches finished early. Easy enough to check out other games going on with every sitting, so I'd say it was good.
3) I liked all the maps I played on, and most of the ones I didn't. Really, the only one I ended up having concerns about was the Wasaru Castle one, which, in my opinion, would have been a terror to fight dragons or ranged fliers on.
4) You mean besides from my own? (And yes, I was very pleased with my combo.) Well, ScottManDeath's army was a beast (and I didn't even have to play him), and the B.I.V.'s army looked good too from his battle report. Vivaldi's use of a cheap, offensive screen for Q9 also seemed to work well.
5) Well, I won't mention any names, but...
No, everyone I met was great. Easy going people playing a game we all love, I don't know if there's much else to say. There were a bunch of kids, but I think those little dudes (and little dudettes) are awesome.
6) Honestly, I would've been fine with standing. In fact, in the game Vivaldi and I played, we both ended up on our feet anyway. All that I can think of that might have helped would maybe be a projector for the matchups/listings, because then you could cover a whole wall when needed. But the TV was great (and official-looking, too).
7) I think all the important stuff was covered quickly enough (maps, point totals). The only last minute stuff was glyphs and the trap, but I don't think either of those were so important they couldn't have waited (I was testing with most of the same glyphs, anyway, and traps are easy enough to adapt to).

All in all, a great tournament. Thanks again, Scott.

[ScottManDeath]

1) How was the tournament, generally? Compared to previous years?

Perfect, like last year. :)

2) How was the room setup, easier to move around?

It was easier to move around than last year. I liked the projector with the tournament schedule a bit more, but I can imagine that it would have been difficult to do it again with the changed setup. The TV was doing its job fine!

3) Which maps did you like/not like? Which would you recommend to others?

Coincidentally, I playtested on all the maps that I ended up playing during the tournament; we picked them since they seemed to be the more difficult ones. I like Black Root (though it made Nilfheim a little bit claustrophobic ;) ) and Shrine of Mo-Ne-Ca. I didn't like Out Cold too much though.

4) What army cards/army combos impressed you? Which fell short of your expectations?

I didn't see much from other games, but reading the battle reports makes me want to play a warforged army now :P And the Minions just scared/impressed me. :?

5) What was your impression of other players? Good/bad anecdotes?

A good crowd.

6) What was missing (besides adequate chairs)--what things were confusing, missing, not covered?

Epic Games and their 25% discount ;)

7) How was the pre-tournament organization? What needed adjustment? What can be improved for next year?

Important information, such as maps and army points limit were announced early in advance. And for next year, it seems we have precedent for the glyph pool (well, I still think that the commin/unique attack +1 could be omitted).

P.S.

Is the tournament director software available for download form somewhere? I'm thinking about running a small tournament when I go home for the holidays, it would be very useful then :)

[cmgames]

For those of you who got a chance to play on the Shrine of Mo-Ne-Ca map, how was it? It looks interesting, and if it was a good tournament map, I am thinking of suggesting it for our next tournament.

~Z

[BiggaBullfrog]

For those of you who got a chance to play on the Shrine of Mo-Ne-Ca map, how was it? It looks interesting, and if it was a good tournament map, I am thinking of suggesting it for our next tournament.

~Z
I thought it was a great map. I played a mostly melee army on it, and won against a mostly flying ranged army. Of course, I had Tactical Switch on my side, but I would have felt comfortable fielding any other melee-heavy army on it--it's going to be as uphill a battle as any melee vs ranged match will be, but the glyphs really help draw attention away from the shrine itself, and the jungle provides great cover. I'd recommend it for any tournament. (I really wish I had a jungle set so I could build it myself).

[tannergx]

Hi cmgames,

As the author, I'm at risk of bias. But I thought it held its own amongst the other maps and felt very balanced for a castle build. I played it once during the event, and have a battle report - I had all melee and beat a hodge-podge Q9 build:http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1226948#post1226948And the 2 players that went undefeated both have battle reports with it as well:ScottManDeath - http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1225593#post1225593BiggaBullfrog - http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1225759#post1225759There was also a note about ScottManDeath's roommate having his Braxas + Greenscales army taken out by a DW 8000 on Shrine. The fact that someone could get one of Utgar's non-competitive big-borgs up on the platform and have it take out a dragon build made me very pleased. :)

Cheers,

~tgx

Edit: BiggaBullfrog ninja'd me... what he said ;)

[Vivaldi]

Looks like everyone made it home okay, good.

We can use this thread for the smaller details of the tournament.
I'll be putting my thoughts down later, but for now I'd like feedback from everybody:

1) How was the tournament, generally? Compared to previous years?
2) How was the room setup, easier to move around?
3) Which maps did you like/not like? Which would you recommend to others?
4) What army cards/army combos impressed you? Which fell short of your expectations?
5) What was your impression of other players? Good/bad anecdotes?
6) What was missing (besides adequate chairs)--what things were confusing, missing, not covered?
7) How was the pre-tournament organization? What needed adjustment? What can be improved for next year?


1. Fantastigreat! I dare say best I've been to.
2. Very roomy compared to GNG in 2008. It was just fine.
3. Honestly, I wasn't a big fan of Wasaru Castle, and I think if I played on Out Cold I might have disliked that some as well. I liked Migol's Gate, Boiling Point, and (from playtesting) Shrine of Mo-Ne-Ca
4. I didn't expect to see warforged, so that surprised me. I really liked HokshillaTo's all Ullar(favorite general) army. Also I liked to winning army so much I borrowed it.
5. Everyone was very friendly and enjoyable, I hope I was the same.
6. The tournament ran on-time and smoothly IMO. That says to me most everything was in order.
7. You can see some of my thoughts on the breakdown of the two brackets here.

[The B.I.V.]

I fear greatly that I may have left my Ornak and 4 Blade Gruts on he last map I played on. It was against Myren's daughter Cecily on Jagged Causeway:

http://www.heroscapers.com/downloads//jaggedcauseway_O87.jpg
If anyone has an info, I'd appreciate it!

EDIT:Great all-around tournament. 3 things:

1. I was somewhat surprised to see Dragons/Greenscales. I figured the 450 point limit would be too restrictive. I'm also surprised that they did so well. I really don't think they're that great on paper. I think the inclusion of Raelin was key (again something I didn't expect at 450 points). Nilf is definitely the best option for this army (as the results showed). I think my army was well suited to taking these armies down (as Cyprien could easily take out Raelin/the Dragon. If not for that lucky roll, I think my army had a great chance against the Braxas build. Had I won that, I would have been 5-0 and Braxas would have gone 3-2. Ah, could have beens... :)

2. K, I'm gonna sound like the bad guy but I was little annoyed at all the kids in the adult bracket. Maybe it's because 3 out of 5 of my matches were against them. I felt kind like an Ogre beating up on them, which wasn't fun but at the same time, I didn't want to lose...not really sure what can be done about it (or if anything really should be done about it at all)...just an observation.

3. Never got to play against the minions or the Warforged. I also saw a Hydra x2/PK army that looked pretty mean. I'm surprised that didn't do better...

Brandon

[UtahScott]

...I'm gonna sound like the bad guy but I was little annoyed at all the kids in the adult bracket. Maybe it's because 3 out of 5 of my matches were against them. I felt kind like an Ogre beating up on them, which wasn't fun but at the same time, I didn't want to lose...not really sure what can be done about it (or if anything really should be done about it at all)...just an observation.I always let the kids choose who they want to play, most of them went with the adults this year.Hmm. Maybe if I rename it the teen bracket... :ponder:
Naw, I'm good with their decisions.

Anybody seen Brandon's orcses? Details above...