The Book of Swamp Thing

[quozl]

The Book of Swamp Thing

C3G DC PUBLIC EXCLUSIVE COLLECTION 2
CREATURES AND CREEPERS

http://C3ggames.com/C3G/released/cards/jpg/C3G_SwampThing_comic.jpg

Comic PDF (http://C3ggames.com/C3G/released/cards/pdf/C3G_SwampThing_comic.pdf)

http://C3ggames.com/C3G/released/cards/jpg/C3G_SwampThing_mini.jpg

Mini PDF (http://C3ggames.com/C3G/released/cards/pdf/C3G_SwampThing_mini.pdf)

The figure used for this unit is a Heroclix figure from the Hypertime set.
Its model number and name are #115-117 / Swamp Thing.
_________________________________________________________________

Character Bio - Years ago, bio-scientist Alec Holland was brutally murdered in an explosion and ended up in the swamp of Louisiana. Accumulating leaves, moss, and rotten decay, a body was formed around Holland's mind, and arose as the Swamp Thing. For years, this Swamp Thing believed itself to be Alec Holland mutated into a monster, and vainly sought a cure to restore himself to human. It wasn't until much later that the creature learned the truth: He wasn't Alec Holland. He was a Plant Elemental, an agent of the Green, a vegetable, with the memories of Alec Holland. After realizing and accepting the truth, the Swamp Thing found a purpose in life as protector of the Earth. He developed his powers and skills, learning how to regenerate himself, control plant life, and travel through the realms and even how to travel back in time.
_________________________________________________________________


-Rulings and Clarifications-
N/A_________________________________________________________________

-Combinations and Synergies-

Synergy Benefits Received


Classic:
N/AMarvel:
N/AC3G:
Swamp Thing can utilize Evergreen Trees and Jungle Pieces for his The Green special power. Current Evergreen Trees and Jungle Pieces include: Evergreen Tree (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=36992), Great Evergreen Tree (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=37059).
As a Scientist, Swamp Thing may benefit from Invisible Woman's (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=30548) Fantastic Force Field 4 special power.Synergy Benefits Offered


Classic:
N/AMarvel:
N/AC3G:
As a Scientist, Swamp Thing may add up to 4 dice to The Thing's (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=30549) attack.
_________________________________________________________________




-Strategy, Tactics and Tips-
N/A-Heroscapers Community Contributions-

Initial Playtest: IAmBatman (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1180508&postcount=149)
Second Playtest: Hidicul (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1189437&postcount=229)
Third Playtest: Flame Gryphon (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1190175&postcount=238)

[Scapemage]

Looks cool, however:

8 attack is way too high. I wouldn't go over 6 for him personally, but it's up to you.

Seriously consider putting a cap on The Green. I suggest:
Swamp Lurk
Instead of moving normally, Swamp Thing may swamp lurk. To Swamp Lurk, place Swamp Thing on any unoccupied swamp or swamp water space withing 10 spaces of Swamp Thing.

Also, this needs rewording, and I think it should be like stealth dodge:
Plant Matter
When defending against an attack from a non-adjacent figure, one shield will block all damage.

Or, if you really want to:

Plant Matter
Swamp Thing cannot be targeted by an attack from a non-adjacent figure.

And finally (for now ;)), some art suggestions:

Figure art:

http://www.gamehollow.com/catalog/images/Heroclix/DC/Hypertime/115.jpg
It's a bad picture, so I'll happilly go take a much better one in a few minutes.


Comic Art:

http://www.dccomics.com/media/product/4/1/4172_400x600.jpg
http://roberthood.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/swamp_thing.jpg
http://rickischultz.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/swampthing.jpg


And some nice swampy backgrounds...

http://dnr.state.il.us/wetlands/images/swamp21.jpg
http://www.vte.qc.ca/uploads/Images/Louisiane/Bayou%20Swamp%20Tours.jpg
http://sherritalley.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/swamp.jpg


What did I tell you? Enjoy, and expect some figure pics in a few minutes.

[Scapemage]

Check out my post (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1173451&postcount=145) for some figure pics.

[quozl]

Cool! I think the first comic art picture best. Thanks for grabbing those.

Now I'll explain my choices.

8 attack is way too high. I wouldn't go over 6 for him personally, but it's up to you.

Seriously consider putting a cap on The Green. I suggest:
Swamp Lurk
Instead of moving normally, Swamp Thing may swamp lurk. To Swamp Lurk, place Swamp Thing on any unoccupied swamp or swamp water space withing 10 spaces of Swamp Thing.

Also, this needs rewording, and I think it should be like stealth dodge:
Plant Matter
When defending against an attack from a non-adjacent figure, one shield will block all damage.

Or, if you really want to:

Plant Matter
Swamp Thing cannot be targeted by an attack from a non-adjacent figure.


I'm a fan of classic Swamp Thing (as a kid, I had the first few issues) and I've also read a compilation of what Alan Moore did in the 80s. Swamp Thing is tremedously strong. In the comics, he's always pulling his punches so he doesn't outright kill people (even Batman!) in one punch. I wanted him to be able to do a lot of damage (I even thought about upping his attack to 9) but only to one figure at a time.

For the unlimited movement range on THE GREEN, I got that from Alan Moore's run where he can travel around the world and to other planets through The Green.

As for my wording on Plant Matter, I wanted him to not be affected by normal bullets or arrows but still be affected by special attacks. I thought about the "not able to be targeted" wording but I wanted him to still be targeted for special attacks.

I hope that explains what I was thinking and thanks for all the suggestions!

[Scapemage]

Cool! I think the first comic art picture best. Thanks for grabbing those.

Now I'll explain my choices.

8 attack is way too high. I wouldn't go over 6 for him personally, but it's up to you.

Seriously consider putting a cap on The Green. I suggest:
Swamp Lurk
Instead of moving normally, Swamp Thing may swamp lurk. To Swamp Lurk, place Swamp Thing on any unoccupied swamp or swamp water space withing 10 spaces of Swamp Thing.

Also, this needs rewording, and I think it should be like stealth dodge:
Plant Matter
When defending against an attack from a non-adjacent figure, one shield will block all damage.

Or, if you really want to:

Plant Matter
Swamp Thing cannot be targeted by an attack from a non-adjacent figure.


I'm a fan of classic Swamp Thing (as a kid, I had the first few issues) and I've also read a compilation of what Alan Moore did in the 80s. Swamp Thing is tremedously strong. In the comics, he's always pulling his punches so he doesn't outright kill people (even Batman!) in one punch. I wanted him to be able to do a lot of damage (I even thought about upping his attack to 9) but only to one figure at a time.

For the unlimited movement range on THE GREEN, I got that from Alan Moore's run where he can travel around the world and to other planets through The Green.

As for my wording on Plant Matter, I wanted him to not be affected by normal bullets or arrows but still be affected by special attacks. I thought about the "not able to be targeted" wording but I wanted him to still be targeted for special attacks.

I hope that explains what I was thinking and thanks for all the suggestions!
Ok I get your directive now. But still, 8 attack can easily kill someone in 1 hit. Maybe 7. As for Plant Matter, if you don't want special attacks, jut take my second wording and add "When Swamp Thing is defending against A NORMAL ATTACK from a non-adjacent..." That should fix it. Oh, and I favor hte first bit of art too.


EDIT: I have a feeling he'll be really powerful. 7-8 attack, traversing the whole map instantly, he's a bomb! My estimation right now is sitting at 400 points.

[quozl]

Check out my post (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1173451&postcount=145) for some figure pics.

Thanks! Also, is the mini actually a Medium 6?

[Sherman Davies]

Since Plant Matter is essentially Thorian Speed, shouldn't it just use the same wording?

[Scapemage]

Check out my post (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1173451&postcount=145) for some figure pics.

Thanks! Also, is the mini actually a Medium 6?
No he's 5. And I can't believe I didn't think of thorian Speed before.

EDIT: Oh, and if you would be so kind as to add the art to the first post I would greatly appreciate it.

[Balantai]

Great card, Quozl.

I like his base stats. Eight attack seems pretty solid for Swamp Thing. It'll put him on even ground with Grundy and I like that. I do think that Swamp Lurk and Regenerate are too powerful of a combination. If your Swamp Thing is injured, you can "move" to the other side of the battlefield and regenerate. By the time your opponent made his way over to you, if you weren't full health, you can pop back over to the other side of the battlefield and continue regenerating. For this reason alone, I would consider putting a cap on the movement.

PLANT MATTER
When attacked with a normal attack from a non-adjacent figure, all damage is automatically blocked.

For Plant Matter, the wording really doesn't feel official. How about:

When defending against a normal attack from a non-adjacent figure, you may add 2 automatic skulls to whatever is rolled.

This way, someone who's normal attack represents a gun or bow would be blocked 90% of the time, but someone like Galactus who might have a ranged normal attack or 10 could still hurt him.

Other than that, I somewhat expected a Swamp Strength type ability, but it certainly isn't necessary. Overall, great job, Quozl.

[Scapemage]

Great card, Quozl.

I like his base stats. Eight attack seems pretty solid for Swamp Thing. It'll put him on even ground with Grundy and I like that. I do think that Swamp Lurk and Regenerate are too powerful of a combination. If your Swamp Thing is injured, you can "move" to the other side of the battlefield and regenerate. By the time your opponent made his way over to you, if you weren't full health, you can pop back over to the other side of the battlefield and continue regenerating. For this reason alone, I would consider putting a cap on the movement.

PLANT MATTER
When attacked with a normal attack from a non-adjacent figure, all damage is automatically blocked.

For Plant Matter, the wording really doesn't feel official. How about:

When defending against a normal attack from a non-adjacent figure, you may add 2 automatic skulls to whatever is rolled.

This way, someone who's normal attack represents a gun or bow would be blocked 90% of the time, but someone like Galactus who might have a ranged normal attack or 10 could still hurt him.

Other than that, I somewhat expected a Swamp Strength type ability, but it certainly isn't necessary. Overall, great job, Quozl.
What happened to Thorian Speed wording for Plant Matter?
PLANT MATTER
Opponents' figures must be adjacent to Swamp Thing to attack him with a normal attack.

And I didn't even see Regenerate! Going with what Balantai said, ewith Regenerate I see him easily at 450-500 points. Don't you think that's a little much?

As mentioned before, I'd cap The Green at 10 and replace Regenerate with some sort of Swamp Strength ability.

[quozl]

Other than that, I somewhat expected a Swamp Strength type ability, but it certainly isn't necessary. Overall, great job, Quozl.

Thanks! With the three powers so short, a fourth power could be added giving him Swamp Strength. I just thought the other three powers were more important but I wouldn't mind adding a fourth power if others are for it.

EDIT: I also changed The Green so he no longer has an unlimited movement range. Swamp Thing may now move up to 12 spaces away.

[johnny139]

Hmm... not a bad design, but, yeah, too powerful between the movement and regeneration. I'd either put a cap on the movement (ten, maybe twelve spaces?) or some sort of restriction on regeneration (only on turns where he hasn't moved, or hasn't used The Green?).

His stats seem solid; high attack, which is fitting (wouldn't hurt to bring it to 7, but 8's a good choice, too). Low defense/high life. Not sure what Plant Matter is about, though... what's the argument for it, as an ability?

[quozl]

Not sure what Plant Matter is about, though... what's the argument for it, as an ability?

Normal bullets and other projectiles don't hurt him. He has no organs to damage since he is composed of entirely plant matter. Only chopping him up or causing him to explode can really damage him.

[Scapemage]

Not sure what Plant Matter is about, though... what's the argument for it, as an ability?

Normal bullets and other projectiles don't hurt him. He has no organs to damage since he is composed of entirely plant matter. Only chopping him up or causing him to explode can really damage him.
Yeah, but plants are living things..... anyways, 12 seems reasonable, but I still think Regeneration rockets his points up by at least 50.

Another suggestion from me. To keep him balanced, I suggest these stats to accompany the current powers:

Life 6
Move 5
Range 1
Attack 8
Defense 2

Of course if regeneration is removed, lowering these stats isn't as neccesary.

[johnny139]

Not sure what Plant Matter is about, though... what's the argument for it, as an ability?

Normal bullets and other projectiles don't hurt him. He has no organs to damage since he is composed of entirely plant matter. Only chopping him up or causing him to explode can really damage him.

Then I was going to suggest it only affect normal attacks, but it seems you've already covered that! Sounds good.

So, yeah, no other problems I can spot other than adding some limits.

[quozl]

To keep him balanced, I suggest these stats to accompany the current powers:

Life 6
Move 5
Range 1
Attack 8
Defense 2

Of course if regeneration is removed, lowering these stats isn't as neccesary.

I think that may be a bit too low but I'm not that great at estimating points. I'm thinking he's around Abomination's level right now so he should be around 320-350 points.

I also edited in the part about no leaving engagement attacks when using The Green.

[Scapemage]

To keep him balanced, I suggest these stats to accompany the current powers:

Life 6
Move 5
Range 1
Attack 8
Defense 2

Of course if regeneration is removed, lowering these stats isn't as neccesary.

I think that may be a bit too low but I'm not that great at estimating points. I'm thinking he's around Abomination's level right now so he should be around 320-350 points.

I also edited in the part about no leaving engagement attacks when using The Green.
Bringing his cost up even more. He'd be at about Abombination's level if he didn't have Regenerate or The Green. Basically, you want low defence balanced by Thorian speed and by Regenerate, and high life. Instead, you have high life, medium defence, greatly advantaged by Thorian speed and Regenerate, plus 8 attack and a movement power. He's at Superman's level right now.

EDIT: Oh, and this is meant to be constructive criticism, as I see where you're trying to go and love it, but he seems overpowerd that's all.

[quozl]

Oh, and this is meant to be constructive criticism, as I see where you're trying to go and love it, but he seems overpowerd that's all.

Don't worry, I'm definitely taking it constructively! I'm going to wait until others weigh in before I change that though.

Although, Superman's power level isn't far off from Swamp Thing in the comics.

[johnny139]

Although, Superman's power level isn't far off from Swamp Thing in the comics.

Yeah, I love the comic where Superman's got that meteor thing and Swamp Thing has to stop him from going crazy and destroying the swamp and stuff.

Good story.

[Scapemage]

Swamp Thing comics read: 0
Superman comics read: very few
Total comics read (all series): not many

My point being, the bulk of my information on any superhero comes from pretty much everything except comics: movies, tv, people, internet. So if ther's a specific theme from comics, I don't know much about it. Basically, from what I know, I thought Superman was the strongest super out there (excluding the few enemies that can match him), but if Swamp Thing lives up to par, so be it.


EDIT: Do they still print Swamp Thing comics? (I guess that's a better question for my friend's mom's friend who draws Swamp Thing) If so, Xmas subscription!

[quozl]

My comic reading is also very sparse. However, I had a few of the original run of Swamp Thing back when I was a kid and they made a big impression on me. This book (which I happened to just pick up from the library) contains the entire original run:

http://www.amazon.com/Roots-Swamp-Comics-Classics-Library/dp/1401222366/ref=sr_1_10?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1281719996&sr=1-10

After that, it was revived by Alan Moore in the 80s and there are quite a few compilation books out there for his stuff. I read the first of his compilations (that I also found at the library). Personally, I didn't like what he did to the character as he made Swamp Thing inhuman so the horror didn't resonate as much.

The comics continued after Moore's run but I haven't read them. They also recently announced they were bringing Swamp Thing back into the DC universe line of comics rather than their "indie" line.

[Scapemage]

My comic reading is also very sparse. However, I had a few of the original run of Swamp Thing back when I was a kid and made a big impression on me. This book (which I happened to just pick up from the library) contains the entire original run:

http://www.amazon.com/Roots-Swamp-Comics-Classics-Library/dp/1401222366/ref=sr_1_10?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1281719996&sr=1-10

After that, it was revived by Alan Moore in the 80s and there are quite a few compilation books out there for his stuff. I read the first of his compilations (that I also found at the library). Personally, I didn't like what he did to the character as he made Swamp Thing inhuman so the horror didn't resonate as much.

The comics continued after Moore's run but I haven't read them. They also recently announced they were bringing Swamp Thing back into the DC universe line of comics rather than their "indie" line.
Sweet! I've got to find that book! Whenever the movie they're making comes out, that should rock if they do it right.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I think Swamp Thing is overpowered as well. Part of our goal is to NOT make customs unbeatable by squads and regular 'Scape units. I think with the ability to a)teleport, b)heal, c)do massive amounts of damage, and d) avoid half of all ranged attacks, he is on the broken side. I am not saying he is broken, just that he is leaning more that way, than balanced. I think his powers are very thematic, but if you take a couple suggestions, he could be really good. I would say to add the Swamp Strength, but lower his Defense to 2 and his Attack to 6. With Height on Swamp he still gets 8 and 4, really good stats, plus he can choose to heal. If you don't want to lower his defense, his life could be lowered instead. Remember what Matthelm said, "Don't fall in love with your ideas too much." Honestly, I think this is one of the most difficult things for a C3G designer to fight, when we design our favorite guy, we want him to be so awesome he has no weakness. That's why I haven't touched Spider-man yet.

[quozl]

Thanks, Spidey!

What point cost do you see him at with the Swamp Strength added and Attack and Defense lowered by one?

[Griffin]

THE GREEN
Instead of moving, you may place Swamp Thing adjacent to an Evergreen Tree or Jungle Piece or on any swamp or grass space up to 12 spaces away. If Swamp Thing is engaged when using The Green, he will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

PLANT MATTER
Opponents’ figures must be adjacent to Swamp Thing to attack him with a normal attack.

REGENERATE
After taking a turn with Swamp Thing, remove 1 Wound Marker from this Army Card.

I don't think Plant Matter is very interesting or fun enough to be here on the card. Also, Swamp Thing gets shot plenty of times, so I don't think the theme is a good match either.

Regenerate; another official power. :yawn: How about only allowing that power to work if he is on a swamp, swamp water, or water space? That would be more thematically accurate, and an interesting deviation from the rut of "official-powerdom".

[quozl]

Yeah, he does get shot but bullets never hurt him unless they have explosive rounds. My original wording had him automatically block all damage from a non-adjacent normal attack, which conveyed the theme a bit better but was awkwardly worded.

As for Regenerate, I use what works. Not only is regenerating only on swamp unthematic, it makes Swamp Thing really only draftable on certain kinds of maps. I wanted to avoid that.

Any idea on point cost?

[Griffin]

Yeah, he does get shot but bullets never hurt him unless they have explosive rounds. My original wording had him automatically block all damage from a non-adjacent normal attack, which conveyed the theme a bit better but was awkwardly worded.

As for Regenerate, I use what works. Not only is regenerating only on swamp unthematic, it makes Swamp Thing really only draftable on certain kinds of maps. I wanted to avoid that.

Any idea on point cost?
Give me a couple minutes on cost, but as far as the overall card, I am a bit unimpressed, and it doesn't seem like you are really trying to break your habit of falling back on already existing powers.

I am not saying that everything we do has to be 100% original, but you seem to give a lot of customs 1 or 2 official powers, and I would like to see you grow past that personally and start designing more.

I can't push you, but I can choose where to place my votes. ;)

[Griffin]

He looks more like 240 to me.

[johnny139]

How about making Plant Matter a one-shield defense type deal? Make it so he'll only take minor damage for range, unless the opponent gets really lucky.

[quozl]

I am not saying that everything we do has to be 100% original, but you seem to give a lot of customs 1 or 2 official powers, and I would like to see you grow past that personally and start designing more.

I can't push you, but I can choose where to place my votes. ;)

That's true. I do.

I had some ideas that I discarded but let me know what you think:

CUT DOWN TO SIZE
When Swamp Thing attacks using a normal attack, he receives one less attack die for each Wound Marker he has, up to a maximum of 5 less attack dice.

Also:

EARTH GUARDIAN SPECIAL ATTACK
Attack: 4, Range: Special
Swamp Thing may attack any and all figures in clear sight that are adjacent to an evergreen tree or jungle piece or on any swamp or grass spaces. Roll attack dice once. Each figure defends separately without any defensive bonuses. Earth Guardian Special Attack may only be used once per game.

[A3n]

Holy crap a move of 12 with no consequence :shock:. It always took time to reconstitute his body at the new place. I think you should either be dropped it to 5 or 6 spaces (if you want him to be able to attack) or him not be able to attack when using "The Green".

I think a normal attack of 8 is too high also. Sure he hits humans hard but to me he is not in the league of Solomon Grundy or Superman. And with no strength for tactics no advanced weaponry or even great agility, I would say 6 would be the absolute ceiling for his attack.

Having said that I think his Defense is too low. Him being plant matter, most attacks do very little damage & barely slow him down. I think his defense could go up to at least 5 maybe 6 but his life drop to 5 also.

Cheers

[Hidicul]

I think that rearranging his base stats would be a good thing. As far as powers go, I think that the limit for The Green should around 6 to 8. I'd like to see Swamp Strength, and also a power somewhat like Poison Ivys since he has the ability to control plants. I'm not sold on the Swamp only Regeneration, but I'll go with what the majority thinks on that one. Remember that them can also be represented in base stats, not just powers. I'd drop Plant Matter and raise his defense. I like the sound of Earth Guardian SA although I think I'd take out the grass space. By being able to use it on a grass space, you may as well just give him Whirlwind as that would allow him to almost always attack all adjacent figures , unless you play on a map with only a little bit of grass, tress and swamp. I think it just working around trees and on swamp and swamp water would be the best bet. For base stats I think

Life 6 or 4 with regeneration
move 5 or 6
range 1
attack 6 though I could see 7
defense 5 or 6 without Plant Matter I like the 2 though if you leave the power

[All Your Pie]

I think this would be a reasonable power for Swamp Thing, though keep in mind I've never heard of him so this may not be terribly thematic.

Nature's Wrath Special Attack
Range: 2, Attack: 2(3?)

This attack affects all figures on a grass or swamp space within two spaces of Swamp Thing. Small or Medium figures may not roll defence dice when attacked by Nature's Wrath. Swamp Thing must be standing on a grass or swamp space in order to use Nature's Wrath. Swamp Thing may not use Nature's Wrath if he used The Green this turn. Swamp Thing is not affected by his own Nature's Wrath Special Attack.


Wording is probably a little clunky. This allows him to keep great offensive potential without having a ridiculously high attack. If this power is used, I recommend making Swamp Thing's base attack 5 or lower so not being able to use it will be a penalty.

[Xn F M]

Tough seems like it would be a pretty good compromise between the ridiculousness of Thorian Speed, and general game play balance. If Swamp Thing had a defense of at least four an Tough, he'd be mostly safe against attacks of 4-5 with a weakness against "special" attacks . . . .

[Hidicul]

I think this would be a reasonable power for Swamp Thing, though keep in mind I've never heard of him so this may not be terribly thematic.

Nature's Wrath Special Attack
Range: 2, Attack: 2

This attack affects all figures on a grass or swamp space within two spaces of Swamp Thing. Figures may not roll defence dice when attacked by Nature's Wrath. Swamp Thing must be standing on a grass or swamp space in order to use Nature's Wrath. Swamp Thing may not use Nature's Wrath if he used The Green this turn. Swamp Thing is not affected by his own Nature's Wrath Special Attack.


Wording is probably a little clunky. This allows him to keep great offensive potential without having a ridiculously high attack. If this power is used, I recommend making Swamp Thing's base attack 5 or lower so not being able to use it will be a penalty.

Tough seems like it would be a pretty good compromise between the ridiculousness of Thorian Speed, and general game play balance. If Swamp Thing had a defense of at least four an Tough, he'd be mostly safe against attacks of 4-5 with a weakness against "special" attacks . . . .
I like these though yes, Nature's Wrath SA is a tad clunky but it wouldn't take much to streamline it.

[DEATHWALKER 1970]

My point being, the bulk of my information on any superhero comes from pretty much everything except comics: movies, tv, people, internet.

No offense, but this seems to me a bit like getting all your information as second hand, distorted hearsay...
There´s always something lost in translation, even from medium to medium, and as good as some movies, tv shows and computer games might be, superheroes were created for, and really work best in, comic books. There´s always something tweaked and twisted, when transfering superheroes to other venues, and I think that the comic book versions are the real thing, and, I believe, should always be the C3G gospel. (that is of course just my oppinion, you should feel absolutely free to go other ways...)
You gotta get your info from the SOURCE! And yes, that was meant as a New Gods reference... :D

As an avid, some might say rabid, collector and reader through more than a quarter of a century, I can really recommend sinking your teeth into the real thing! It´s a great pass-time in itself, and great inspiration for your C3G customs, and, not least, your games of superheroScape...

Looking forward to getting in some games with Swampthing! :D

[quozl]

OK, I removed Plant matter as it seemed most everyone disliked it, upped his Defense to 5 and added the proposed powers to the first post.

[Lord Pyre]

My point being, the bulk of my information on any superhero comes from pretty much everything except comics: movies, tv, people, internet.

No offense, but this seems to me a bit like getting all your information as second hand, distorted hearsay...
There´s always something lost in translation, even from medium to medium, and as good as some movies, tv shows and computer games might be, superheroes were created for, and really work best in, comic books. There´s always something tweaked and twisted, when transfering superheroes to other venues, and I think that the comic book versions are the real thing, and, I believe, should always be the C3G gospel. (that is of course just my oppinion, you should feel absolutely free to go other ways...)
You gotta get your info from the SOURCE! And yes, that was meant as a New Gods reference... :D

As an avid, some might say rabid, collector and reader through more than a quarter of a century, I can really recommend sinking your teeth into the real thing! It´s a great pass-time in itself, and great inspiration for your C3G customs, and, not least, your games of superheroScape...

Looking forward to getting in some games with Swampthing! :D

Well, since you can't find comics online, that requires a comic book store. And if you don't have lots of money for lots of comics, and if there's no comic shop around, then you've got a problem. :p

[Adam Souza]

I know he's a powerful mystical being, but I'd like to ask about the rationale for giving Swamp Thing an attack of 8 ?

Physically, he's no where near as strong, or agile, as Superman, or even Supergirl.

If it's based on his Plant or Elemental Control Abilities then it would have a ranged component.

[Griffin]

There is a lot of good stuff here, so I am gonna copy, paste, edit, and highlight what is the best IMO. Good job on the new stuff btw. :up:
NAME =Swamp Thing

SECRET IDENTITY = Alec Holland
SPECIES = Construct
UNIQUENESS = Unique Hero
CLASS = Scientist
PERSONALITY = Vengeful
SIZE/HEIGHT = Medium 5

LIFE = 7
MOVE = 5
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 8
DEFENSE = 5
POINTS = ~250?

THE GREEN
Instead of moving and attacking, you may place Swamp Thing adjacent to an Evergreen Tree or Jungle Piece or on any swamp or grass space up to 12 spaces away. If Swamp Thing is engaged when using The Green, he will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

REGENERATE
After taking a turn with Swamp Thing, remove 1 Wound Marker from this Army Card.

SUPERSTRENGTH SYMBOL
_________________________________________________________________
Proposed possible powers:

SWAMP STRENGTH
If Swamp Thing is on a swamp space, add one to his Attack and Defense.

CUT DOWN TO SIZE
When Swamp Thing attacks using a normal attack, he receives one less attack die for each Wound Marker he has, up to a maximum of 5 less attack dice.

EARTH GUARDIAN SPECIAL ATTACK
Attack: 4, Range: Special
Swamp Thing may attack any and all figures in clear sight that are adjacent to an evergreen tree or jungle piece or on any swamp or grass spaces. Roll attack dice once. Each figure defends separately without any defensive bonuses. Earth Guardian Special Attack may only be used once per game.



NAME =Swamp Thing
SECRET IDENTITY = Alec Holland
SPECIES = Construct
UNIQUENESS = Unique Hero
CLASS = Scientist
PERSONALITY = Vengeful
SIZE/HEIGHT = Medium 5
LIFE = 7
MOVE = 5
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 8
DEFENSE = 4
POINTS = ~250?


THE GREEN
Instead of moving and attacking, you may place Swamp Thing adjacent to an Evergreen Tree or Jungle Piece or on any swamp or grass space up to 5 spaces away. If Swamp Thing is engaged when using The Green, he will not take any leaving engagement attacks.


SWAMP STRENGTH REGENERATION
If Swamp Thing is on a swamp space, add 2 to his Defense. After taking a turn with Swamp Thing, remove 1 Wound Marker from this Army Card.

CUT DOWN TO SIZE
When Swamp Thing attacks using a normal attack, he receives one less attack die for each Wound Marker he has, up to a maximum of 5 less attack dice.

SUPERSTRENGTH SYMBOL

Now that is something I would want to play.

[Griffin]

I know he's a powerful mystical being, but I'd like to ask about the rationale for giving Swamp Thing an attack of 8 ?

Physically, he's no where near as strong, or agile, as Superman, or even Supergirl.

If it's based on his Plant or Elemental Control Abilities then it would have a ranged component.
Superman could arguably have an attack of 12, but he doesn't hit very hard very often (Boyscout), but Swampthing is a strong as the Earth itself and is as vengeful as a raging river, he can and would hit that hard, but I think it really balances out due to him being a grounded melee fighter whose attack value decreases as he takes wounds, at least when you look at my "pick and choose" write up from the first page. I really think quozl is on the right track by making ST that powerful, but decreases as he takes damage and heals back stronger as he is in the swamp (perfect theme IMO).

[quozl]

Thanks Griff! I hoped there was something in those proposed powers you would like.

However, I still want to quibble about the swamp-only version of this:

SWAMP STRENGTH REGENERATION
If Swamp Thing is on a swamp space, add 2 to his Defense. After taking a turn with Swamp Thing, remove 1 Wound Marker from this Army Card.

I'm assuming you want the Regeneration to only work if he is on a swamp space, right? How about we tie Regeneration into using The Green instead?

That way, he only regenerates when moving through vegetation and when he doesn't attack. It seems to make a bit more sense thematically.

[Griffin]

Thanks Griff! I hoped there was something in those proposed powers you would like.

However, I still want to quibble about the swamp-only version of this:

SWAMP STRENGTH REGENERATION
If Swamp Thing is on a swamp space, add 2 to his Defense. After taking a turn with Swamp Thing, remove 1 Wound Marker from this Army Card.

I'm assuming you want the Regeneration to only work if he is on a swamp space, right? How about we tie Regeneration into using The Green instead?

That way, he only regenerates when moving through vegetation and when he doesn't attack. It seems to make a bit more sense thematically.
I was fine with the Regen being non-swamp specific, but it is a bit of a theme fail, so yeah, write that up and let me see what it looks like, but that sounds like an excellent plan. :up:

[quozl]

I made the changes although I kept The Green at 12 spaces. Five is just his normal move which doesn't seem like enough.

[NecroBlade]

What's in the first post is looking good. My only complaint is Cut Down to Size has a cap of 5, when if you just leave the cap off it'll cap itself at 6 anyway...

Also, on a semi-related note, this video is hilarious and I had to share:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxgyj3g76tg

[johnny139]

Well, since you can't find comics online, that requires a comic book store. And if you don't have lots of money for lots of comics, and if there's no comic shop around, then you've got a problem. :p

Sure you can. I'm ordering Trade Paperbacks of Runaways and Spider-Girl right now.

One thing bothering me - Swamp Thing, is he really a "Construct?" I think, like, "Elemental," or "Spirit," or even "Undead" would work a bit better.

[All Your Pie]

I don't think Elemental would work, as it is a class, not a race. Plus, if Swamp Thing was an elemental, Kurrok could revive him. :shock:

I think Construct works, he is constructed of plants after all.

EDIT: Okay, I got it backwards. Construct is a class, so I do not think it will work for a race. Spirit makes the most sense to me so far.

[Scapemage]

I think his new version is much more balanced :thumbsup:

[Lord Pyre]

Well, since you can't find comics online, that requires a comic book store. And if you don't have lots of money for lots of comics, and if there's no comic shop around, then you've got a problem. :p

Sure you can. I'm ordering Trade Paperbacks of Runaways and Spider-Girl right now.

One thing bothering me - Swamp Thing, is he really a "Construct?" I think, like, "Elemental," or "Spirit," or even "Undead" would work a bit better.

Which costs money. ;)
And I'd only read comics to see what certain characters are like, and then I'd never touch them again, because I prefer words over pictures. :p
I did that with some Black Mask comics a few years ago, since the compilations were in the library system.

Sorry for the hijack. But I think Griff's version is much better! I don't know much about Swamp thing, but he looked like he could outmatch Thor, and that's a bad thing. :p

[A3n]

I don't think Elemental would work, as it is a class, not a race. Plus, if Swamp Thing was an elemental, Kurrok could revive him. :shock:

I think Construct works, he is constructed of plants after all.

EDIT: Okay, I got it backwards. Construct is a class, so I do not think it will work for a race. Spirit makes the most sense to me so far.

Elemental is the perfect species! Because that's exactly what he is, a plant elemental! Elemental is even an official species so it is the best answer. The Kurrok issue makes it a bit muddied though because Swamp Thing is different to the basic elements Elementals, but I don't think it matters too much because it's built into Kurrok's cost.

Cheers

[quozl]

We could make him an Elementar like the Granite Guardians.

[Lord Pyre]

I don't think Elemental would work, as it is a class, not a race. Plus, if Swamp Thing was an elemental, Kurrok could revive him. :shock:

I think Construct works, he is constructed of plants after all.

EDIT: Okay, I got it backwards. Construct is a class, so I do not think it will work for a race. Spirit makes the most sense to me so far.

Elemental is the perfect species! Because that's exactly what he is, a plant elemental! Elemental is even an official species so it is the best answer. The Kurrok issue makes it a bit muddied though because Swamp Thing is different to the basic elements Elementals, but I don't think it matters too much because it's built into Kurrok's cost.

Cheers

I think construct is probably fine... Elemental might fit better, but being able to revive Swamp thing might be a bit too powerful! :p
But it WOULD be cool to have him in an elemental army, haha!

[quozl]

Also, I think a swamp water space is also a swamp space (just like it's also a water space) so specifying swamp and swamp water is unnecessary. I'm going to remove the "swamp water" bit.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I am really liking swamp Thing right now, he is dripping with theme and playability. quozl, if you really like Green to be more than 5, I say split the difference between 12 and 5. Either 8 or 9 and I goota agree with Necro, seems like a limit of 5 is weird when the most he would ever lose from his attack without a limit is 6. Perhaps bump attack down to 7, since that seems to be what most people are complaining about, and then limit his attack dice lost to 3 or 4, so his limit has moe effect.

[All Your Pie]

I don't think Elemental would work, as it is a class, not a race. Plus, if Swamp Thing was an elemental, Kurrok could revive him. :shock:

I think Construct works, he is constructed of plants after all.

EDIT: Okay, I got it backwards. Construct is a class, so I do not think it will work for a race. Spirit makes the most sense to me so far.

Elemental is the perfect species! Because that's exactly what he is, a plant elemental! Elemental is even an official species so it is the best answer. The Kurrok issue makes it a bit muddied though because Swamp Thing is different to the basic elements Elementals, but I don't think it matters too much because it's built into Kurrok's cost.

Cheers

I think construct is probably fine... Elemental might fit better, but being able to revive Swamp thing might be a bit too powerful! :p
But it WOULD be cool to have him in an elemental army, haha!

The problem I have with Construct is that, for the Elementals, it is a Class, not a Species. As far as I know, there is no card with a Species that is the same as another card's Class, or vice versa.

I think Spirit is the best option so far.

[A3n]

I don't think Elemental would work, as it is a class, not a race. Plus, if Swamp Thing was an elemental, Kurrok could revive him. :shock:

I think Construct works, he is constructed of plants after all.

EDIT: Okay, I got it backwards. Construct is a class, so I do not think it will work for a race. Spirit makes the most sense to me so far.

Elemental is the perfect species! Because that's exactly what he is, a plant elemental! Elemental is even an official species so it is the best answer. The Kurrok issue makes it a bit muddied though because Swamp Thing is different to the basic elements Elementals, but I don't think it matters too much because it's built into Kurrok's cost.

Cheers

I think construct is probably fine... Elemental might fit better, but being able to revive Swamp thing might be a bit too powerful! :p
But it WOULD be cool to have him in an elemental army, haha!

The problem I have with Construct is that, for the Elementals, it is a Class, not a Species. As far as I know, there is no card with a Species that is the same as another card's Class, or vice versa.

I think Spirit is the best option so far.

:confused: Elemental is an official species! Am I getting confused with what you are trying to say here???

Cheers

[All Your Pie]

I don't think Elemental would work, as it is a class, not a race. Plus, if Swamp Thing was an elemental, Kurrok could revive him. :shock:

I think Construct works, he is constructed of plants after all.

EDIT: Okay, I got it backwards. Construct is a class, so I do not think it will work for a race. Spirit makes the most sense to me so far.

Elemental is the perfect species! Because that's exactly what he is, a plant elemental! Elemental is even an official species so it is the best answer. The Kurrok issue makes it a bit muddied though because Swamp Thing is different to the basic elements Elementals, but I don't think it matters too much because it's built into Kurrok's cost.

Cheers

I think construct is probably fine... Elemental might fit better, but being able to revive Swamp thing might be a bit too powerful! :p
But it WOULD be cool to have him in an elemental army, haha!

The problem I have with Construct is that, for the Elementals, it is a Class, not a Species. As far as I know, there is no card with a Species that is the same as another card's Class, or vice versa.

I think Spirit is the best option so far.

:confused: Elemental is an official species! Am I getting confused with what you are trying to say here???

Cheers

Yes it is, but I do not think it is viable for Swamp Thing. Right now, Kurrok can revive a maximum of 35 points per turn, which is why the summoning roll is so low. If Swamp Thing was an elemental, Kurrok would be able to revive a 250-point figure.

My previous post, I was addressing the Construct species. I only used Elementals to reference their Class.

Sorry for the confusion. :)

[Scapemage]

Construct is my vote, he's definately not a spirit, and elemental just creates problems. He could be...

Elementar
Unique Hero
Construct
Personality

[johnny139]

Elementar is a species, though. It's like giving Krypto the species Doggin - sure, Krypto is a non-human dog, but a Doggin is a specific reference to weird four-eyed alien dog.

[A3n]

Yeah & I'm sorry but he is a plant Elemental, he isn't a construct. So if the issue is Kurrok reviving him then you need to do something else about that because you can't change his species. Unless you have the power of time travel & can influence the comic writers. You can't change a comic characters history here just to fit in with HS. He is what he is, & the fact is is that he is a plant Elemental.

Cheers

[All Your Pie]

Okay then. How about we make his species Plant Elemental rather then just plain Elemental?

[Lord Pyre]

Well, there could be an ability like "Return to the Earth" that says "Swamp Thing may never be revived during a game," or something like that.
It's probably a theme break (I don't know the character, if it's possible to justify it), and it negates the revive glyph, but it's an option.


Funny story, I've never heard of the revive glyph before the last tournament I was in. I landed on it and had to ask what the heck it was. :p It got me back two Mohicans.
Okay, I know nobody cares about my story, I'm done. :p

[NecroBlade]

Or we could make sure to playtest with Kurrok and cost Swampy appropriately...let's not forget we're talking about superhero games here where a savvy opponent could probably knock Kurrok out in 1-2 attacks and avoid the whole problem.

[A3n]

Or we could make sure to playtest with Kurrok and cost Swampy appropriately...let's not forget we're talking about superhero games here where a savvy opponent could probably knock Kurrok out in 1-2 attacks and avoid the whole problem.


:word: If somebody wants to destroy Swamp Thing & leave Kurrok around to laugh about it, then they probably deserve what's coming to them :twisted:.

Cheers

[Scapemage]

Or we could make sure to playtest with Kurrok and cost Swampy appropriately...let's not forget we're talking about superhero games here where a savvy opponent could probably knock Kurrok out in 1-2 attacks and avoid the whole problem.


:word: If somebody wants to destroy Swamp Thing & leave Kurrok around to laugh about it, then they probably deserve what's coming to them :twisted:.

Cheers
Agreed. However plant sounds like a wierd name for a species. He isn't a mutant or metahuman?

[Adam Souza]

Construct is my vote, he's definately not a spirit,

Unless they've retconned him, he is a spirit that animates plant matter into a physical form for him to animate.

He doesn't actually teleport, he grows a new body at the other location and transfers his spirit it.

He's not like a regular ghost, he's the spirit of the swamp. More quasi-elemental than spectre, but he did start off as a man, who was killed in the swamp.

I still think 8 attack is high, but cut down to size mitigates that some, and I'd put him over 300 points. He's got this whole Deadpool + Abomination thing going.

As is he can port 12 and smash you for 8. That out performs Surfer and Thanos. When he loses some attack to cut to size, he can teleport 12 away, behind cover and force you chase him while he regenerates

[Scapemage]

Construct is my vote, he's definately not a spirit,

Unless they've retconned him, he is a spirit that animates plant matter into a physical form for him to animate.

He doesn't actually teleport, he grows a new body at the other location and transfers his spirit it.

He's not like a regular ghost, he's the spirit of the swamp. More quasi-elemental than spectre, but he did start off as a man, who was killed in the swamp.

I still think 8 attack is high, but cut down to size mitigates that some, and I'd put him over 300 points. He's got this whole Deadpool + Abomination thing going.

As is he can port 12 and smash you for 8. That out performs Surfer and Thanos. When he loses some attack to cut to size, he can teleport 12 away, behind cover and force you chase him while he regenerates
As mentioned before, a SUperman level custom. But now, without regenerate, I think he's at Abombination's level at least.

[quozl]

OK, so it seems the species needs to be changed into Spirit or Elemental, depending mostly on if we want to let Swamp Thing be moved and resurrected by Kurrok. I really don't like the theme of that as Swamp Thing isn't controlled by anybody. So, if the Species needs to be changed from Construct, I'm in favor of either changing it to Spirit or giving Swamp Thing a power like Mental Shield that also works against Kurrok.

Heroes, what are your opinions?

[Lord Pyre]

OK, so it seems the species needs to be changed into Spirit or Elemental, depending mostly on if we want to let Swamp Thing be moved and resurrected by Kurrok. I really don't like the theme of that as Swamp Thing isn't controlled by anybody. So, if the Species needs to be changed from Construct, I'm in favor of either changing it to Spirit or giving Swamp Thing a power like Mental Shield that also works against Kurrok.

Heroes, what are your opinions?

If we go spirit, is there any reason to not go undead? Considering the human part of him is dead, and the plants stole his memories, that might fit, too.
But then you'd have the undead synergies and such.

[Scapemage]

OK, so it seems the species needs to be changed into Spirit or Elemental, depending mostly on if we want to let Swamp Thing be moved and resurrected by Kurrok. I really don't like the theme of that as Swamp Thing isn't controlled by anybody. So, if the Species needs to be changed from Construct, I'm in favor of either changing it to Spirit or giving Swamp Thing a power like Mental Shield that also works against Kurrok.

Heroes, what are your opinions?

If we go spirit, is there any reason to not go undead? Considering the human part of him is dead, and the plants stole his memories, that might fit, too.
But then you'd have the undead synergies and such.
Yes but plants are living.

[Lord Pyre]

OK, so it seems the species needs to be changed into Spirit or Elemental, depending mostly on if we want to let Swamp Thing be moved and resurrected by Kurrok. I really don't like the theme of that as Swamp Thing isn't controlled by anybody. So, if the Species needs to be changed from Construct, I'm in favor of either changing it to Spirit or giving Swamp Thing a power like Mental Shield that also works against Kurrok.

Heroes, what are your opinions?

If we go spirit, is there any reason to not go undead? Considering the human part of him is dead, and the plants stole his memories, that might fit, too.
But then you'd have the undead synergies and such.
Yes but plants are living.

Well, duh... ;)
But plants also aren't spirits.

[Hidicul]

Why not go with Elemental and add in a power like the Marro Dividers. That way we don't have to worry about Kurrok moving or bringing him back. It probably wouldn't be to hard to add to one of his powers so we didn't need an extra power just for that.

[SirGalahad]

He is a Plant Elemental.

No need to worry about Kurrok. Just like a Warwitch is not a Warlord.

Let's move on.

[Scapemage]

He is a Plant Elemental.

No need to worry about Kurrok. Just like a Warwitch is not a Warlord.

Let's move on.
:thumbsup: I think Swamp Thing is ready to move on, with appropriate costing of course. I'd say about 320 right now.

[quozl]

He is a Plant Elemental.

No need to worry about Kurrok. Just like a Warwitch is not a Warlord.

Let's move on.

If that's what all the heroes agree to, then I just need a Hero to playtest him.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Ok, here is my concern. With 7 Life and regeneration he could be harder to kill than Wolverine and Deadpool, who I feel are way more sturdy, IMO. I still feel he should be Life 6, Move 5, Range 1, Attack 7, Defense 4. Maybe I am alone, but a Swamp Thing with a stronger attack than Wonder Woman, Superman, and Martian Manhunter is a theme-break for me. I have gone through our "books of" list and completed this:

Figures that have equal attack to Swamp Thing (at 8 ):
Darkseid, Grundy, and Thor
Figures that could/should have equal attack to Swamp Thing (at 7):
Abomination, Doomsday, Green Lantern (w/ ring boost), and Superman
Figures that have 6 Attack and whom I see as attack higher (via training or strength):
Colossus, Hawkgirl, Hulk, Martian Manhunter, Thanos, and Wonder Woman.

To summarize I am really feeling 6 is high enough; but with Cut Down to Size I can see 7, as this puts him at 7 only when perfectly healthy. I would reduce the number of dice lost in Cut Down to Size as well. Even at his weakest, he is most desperate, so I think he should never go below 4 Attack.

[johnny139]

I agree; drop his attack down to 7. That puts him on par with Superman, and thematically makes the most sense.

And I'm good with Plant Elemental as species, too. It's a bit too specific, but, y'know, it'll work fine.

[A3n]

Ok, here is my concern. With 7 Life and regeneration he could be harder to kill than Wolverine and Deadpool, who I feel are way more sturdy, IMO. I still feel he should be Life 6, Move 5, Range 1, Attack 7, Defense 4. Maybe I am alone, but a Swamp Thing with a stronger attack than Wonder Woman, Superman, and Martian Manhunter is a theme-break for me. I have gone through our "books of" list and completed this:

Figures that have equal attack to Swamp Thing (at 8 ):
Darkseid, Grundy, and Thor
Figures that could/should have equal attack to Swamp Thing (at 7):
Abomination, Doomsday, Green Lantern (w/ ring boost), and Superman
Figures that have 6 Attack and whom I see as attack higher (via training or strength):
Colossus, Hawkgirl, Hulk, Martian Manhunter, Thanos, and Wonder Woman.

To summarize I am really feeling 6 is high enough; but with Cut Down to Size I can see 7, as this puts him at 7 only when perfectly healthy. I would reduce the number of dice lost in Cut Down to Size as well. Even at his weakest, he is most desperate, so I think he should never go below 4 Attack.

I agree; drop his attack down to 7. That puts him on par with Superman, and thematically makes the most sense.

And I'm good with Plant Elemental as species, too. It's a bit too specific, but, y'know, it'll work fine.
:word:

[quozl]

If we drop the Attack down to 7, I'd like to change Cut Down To Size so that Swamp Thing uses one less attack die for every two wounds on his Army Card.

Sound good?

[Spidey'tilIDie]

If we drop the Attack down to 7, I'd like to change Cut Down To Size so that Swamp Thing uses one less attack die for every two wounds on his Army Card.

Sound good?
I like Cut Down to Size. I think for every two wounds leaves too much need for an FAQ about rounding, etc. I say leave it as is, but decrease the limit. Like this:

CUT DOWN TO SIZE
When Swamp Thing attacks using a normal attack, he receives one less attack die for each Wound Marker he has, up to a maximum of 3 less attack dice.

I think what this does is kinda make him a cross between Grundy and Hal Jordan, with a hint of Nightcrawler. Way cool unit, IMO.

EDIT: On second thought, I am really feeling 6 with Swamp Strength, but I would keep it at 7, if Defense and Attack were only add one. I mean with Height on Swamp he is an Attack 10, Defense 7 figure currently; that makes him the strongest in the game. Broken, IMO. That rivals Darkseid and Thor with their range. I think either a)lower his Attack to 6 or b)lower to 7 and only boost his defense one with Swamp Strength. Either a) or b) needs to happen.

[quozl]

Ok, so the proposal is to:

Lower the Attack to 7

Change Cut Down to Size to:

CUT DOWN TO SIZE
When Swamp Thing attacks using a normal attack, he receives one less attack die for each Wound Marker he has, up to a maximum of 3 less attack dice.

and change Swamp Strength to:

SWAMP STRENGTH
If Swamp Thing is on a swamp space, add one to his Attack and one to his Defense.

All in favor?

[Scapemage]

Ok, here is my concern. With 7 Life and regeneration he could be harder to kill than Wolverine and Deadpool, who I feel are way more sturdy, IMO. I still feel he should be Life 6, Move 5, Range 1, Attack 7, Defense 4. Maybe I am alone, but a Swamp Thing with a stronger attack than Wonder Woman, Superman, and Martian Manhunter is a theme-break for me. I have gone through our "books of" list and completed this:

Figures that have equal attack to Swamp Thing (at 8 ):
Darkseid, Grundy, and Thor
Figures that could/should have equal attack to Swamp Thing (at 7):
Abomination, Doomsday, Green Lantern (w/ ring boost), and Superman
Figures that have 6 Attack and whom I see as attack higher (via training or strength):
Colossus, Hawkgirl, Hulk, Martian Manhunter, Thanos, and Wonder Woman.

To summarize I am really feeling 6 is high enough; but with Cut Down to Size I can see 7, as this puts him at 7 only when perfectly healthy. I would reduce the number of dice lost in Cut Down to Size as well. Even at his weakest, he is most desperate, so I think he should never go below 4 Attack.

I agree; drop his attack down to 7. That puts him on par with Superman, and thematically makes the most sense.

And I'm good with Plant Elemental as species, too. It's a bit too specific, but, y'know, it'll work fine.
:word:
Yeah sure, but when I suggest cutting his attack to 7 I'm rejected in all possible ways.

[quozl]

Yeah sure, but when I suggest cutting his attack to 7 I'm rejected in all possible ways.

Scape sack, I'm trying not take any action until I see a clear majority in favor of it.

[Scapemage]

Scape sack
3. :grrrr: :bang:
How did Griffin come up with that anyway?

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I have agreed with you form the get go on Attack 7.


Scape sack
3. :grrrr: :bang:
How did Griffin come up with that anyway?

Believe me, you don't wanna know. Lets just say that its now more a term of affection; whereas when he came up with it, not so much.

[Adam Souza]

I'm in favor of:
Lowering attack to Attack 7 - 8 was theme breaking for me
Capping Cut down to size to -3 - to keep him from being gimped
Changing race to Plant Elemental - To Eliminate synergies with Kurrok and undead

[IAmBatman]

Looking good!
Let me actually oppose the crowd here and say I'd like to see his normal attack go up. With wounds lowering his attack, his max attack isn't going to happen all that often in a game. Also, if we take off the -5 limitation (with its really clunky wording) that becomes even less of a concern.
Here's what I'd like to see:

NAME =Swamp Thing

SECRET IDENTITY = Alec Holland
SPECIES = Plant Elemental
UNIQUENESS = Unique Hero
CLASS = Scientist
PERSONALITY = Vengeful
SIZE/HEIGHT = Medium 5

LIFE = 7
MOVE = 5
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 9
DEFENSE = 4
POINTS = ~250?

THE GREEN
Instead of moving and attacking, you may place Swamp Thing adjacent to an Evergreen Tree or Jungle Piece or on any swamp or grass space up to 12 spaces away. If Swamp Thing is engaged when using The Green, he will not take any leaving engagement attacks. After moving Swamp Thing with The Green, remove 1 Wound Marker from this Army Card.

SWAMP STRENGTH
If Swamp Thing is on a swamp space, add one to his Attack and two to his Defense.

CUT DOWN TO SIZE
When Swamp Thing attacks with a normal attack, he receives one less attack die for each Wound Marker he has.

SUPERSTRENGTH SYMBOL

A max attack of 9 and minimum attack of 3 seems pretty good to me.
For those questioning the theme, you've got to realize that this isn't a swamp beast punching you in the nose ... it's basically the combined force of miles and miles worth of plant life smacking you.

[A3n]

I like all your changes to the powers bats, but I am definitely against any hike in the attack & consider 7 as the ceiling for him. In a world of super heroes that are stronger & more strategically minded, skilled & trained I can't see his attack being stronger than theirs. Defensively I could go see an increase but not his attack.

Cheers

[IAmBatman]

Definitely no defensive increase given his healing and (basically) teleporting power and his high life. Whoever commented on the dangerous combo there (I think it was Scapemage?) was absolutely spot on!
I'm cool with his attack being lower, honestly, just so long as that limitation line is off the card. I'm 100% with Necro's aesthetics on that one.

[quozl]

I just copied that power's wording along with the limitation from Hulk's card. The aesthetics are official.

[IAmBatman]

They sound a lot better when dealing with maximums. Also, I just plain don't think they're needed, useful, or nice sounding here. I know Necro feels that way as well, so that's at least two heroes hating on the limit.

[A3n]

As far as caps are concerned then I'm of the opinion if we can get away without it then lets not waste the space on it :D

Cheers

[Confred]

is Plant Elemental better than either word by itself - Plant / Elemental?

[NecroBlade]

No, plant elemental sounds stupid since it's a specific type of elemental, and elemental is already a type.

[SirGalahad]

From wiki

Swamp Thing, a fictional character (http://www.heroscapers.com/wiki/Fictional_character), is a plant (http://www.heroscapers.com/wiki/Plant) elemental (http://www.heroscapers.com/wiki/Elemental) in the DC Comics (http://www.heroscapers.com/wiki/DC_Comics) Universe (http://www.heroscapers.com/wiki/DC_Universe) originally created by Len Wein (http://www.heroscapers.com/wiki/Len_Wein) and Berni Wrightson (http://www.heroscapers.com/wiki/Berni_Wrightson). He first appeared in House of Secrets (http://www.heroscapers.com/wiki/House_of_Secrets) #92 (July 1971) in a stand-alone horror story set in the early 20th century (plotted by Wein and drawn by Wrightson). The Swamp Thing was then reprised in his own series, set in the contemporary world and in the general DC continuity. The character is a humanoid mass of vegetable (http://www.heroscapers.com/wiki/Vegetable) matter who fights to protect his swamp (http://www.heroscapers.com/wiki/Swamp) home, the environment in general, and humanity from various supernatural or terrorist threats.

[quozl]

So the attack number continues to be controversial.

Let me say this and then you can make up your own minds:

For Cut Down To Size to work, the attack number needs to start high. If we lower the attack, we'll need to scrap Cut Down To Size or at least seriously cut it back.

If you still want to go ahead with a lower attack number, I'd like to hear suggestions for a replacement power for Swamp Thing.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Ok, here is my suggestion for a fix to keep Cut Down to Size without the limitation:
Life 5
Move 5
Range 1
Attack 7
Defense 5

This keeps his Attack limit at 3, while basically keeping him really difficult to kill/destroy.

[IAmBatman]

I like that. Good compromise.

[A3n]

Ok, here is my suggestion for a fix to keep Cut Down to Size without the limitation:
Life 5
Move 5
Range 1
Attack 7
Defense 5

This keeps his Attack limit at 3, while basically keeping him really difficult to kill/destroy.

:up:

[Boromir_and_kermit]

I hope you guys don't mind me chiming in here, but I think one of my ambush attacks might be of use here.

You could start with a lower attack (say 5), but have an ability similar to:

Strength of the Green - Each time a number 1 order marker is revealed on this card and Swamp Thing is on a Swamp or Swamp Water space, place a Green token on this card.
For each Green token placed on this card, Swamp Thing rolls 1 more die when attacking with a normal attack. You may have up to 3 Green tokens on this card at any one time.

OR

Have the Green token placed when any order marker is revealed on the card and he is on a swamp water / swamp tile

OR

Have the Green token placed when the number 1 order marker is revealed on the card no matter what space he's on

This ability was originally called Perfect Ambush, but I think it would work well with Swamp Thing.

Cheers and thanks for listening, I hope it helps.
Ben. :)

[whitestuff]

Nice to see you about b&k.

I don't mind the Green token idea... but I'd even push it further and tie it into his life as well. The more time spent in the swamp the stronger and healthier he gets.

[Scapemage]

Nice to see you about b&k.

I don't mind the Green token idea... but I'd even push it further and tie it into his life as well. The more time spent in the swamp the stronger and healthier he gets.
Hm... This gives me an idea.... set his life to X, then have a power that says "Swamp Thing starts the game with 5/6/7 (whatever you want his life to be) green Swamp Tokens on this card. Swamp Thing's life is equal to the number of Swap Tokens on this card. After taking a turn with Swamp Thing, if he is on a swamp space, add one Seamp Token to this card. Swamp Thing can have a maximum of 5/6/7 (again, set life) Swamp Tokens on his card at any one time."

Of course the wording needs polishing.

[Hidicul]

I'm not sure I like the idea of having to use tokens for his life, the designers seem to try and avoid using tokens as much as they can, and I think that we should also.

[Scapemage]

I'm not sure I like the idea of having to use tokens for his life, the designers seem to try and avoid using tokens as much as they can, and I think that we should also.
I was mainly going off Whitestuff's suggestion. I like Swamp Thing how he is now.

[quozl]

Ok, here is my suggestion for a fix to keep Cut Down to Size without the limitation:
Life 5
Move 5
Range 1
Attack 7
Defense 5

This keeps his Attack limit at 3, while basically keeping him really difficult to kill/destroy.

I'm going to go with that. Updating first post.

Does everything look good now?

[IAmBatman]

I'm with Hidicul on this one ... it's a cool concept but I think what we have here are really cool concepts that just need minor tweaking (see Spidey's post) and adding markers and additional complexity is unnecessary at this point.

[IAmBatman]

Looks great, quozl! Great job being the LD on this one so far! :-)
I wouldn't mind seeing Swamp Strength add only 1 to his defense as I think it might be a bit too powerful right now, but it's not a deal breaker for me yet.
I think he's ready for an initial playtest.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Looks great, quozl! Great job being the LD on this one so far! :-)
I wouldn't mind seeing Swamp Strength add only 1 to his defense as I think it might be a bit too powerful right now, but it's not a deal breaker for me yet.
I think he's ready for an initial playtest.
:word: I also think adding just one to both Attack and Defense is way easier to remember. I think using him well strategically will seem easy, but in reality be very tricky and fun to try to master, so a slight tweak for simplicities sake seems smart, IMO.

EDIT: I am not gonna lie, I am not generally a fan of these types of comic characters (zombies, etc.), but this guy may be a must have for me and one of my favorite pieces to play when all is said and done.

[Scapemage]

Looks great, quozl! Great job being the LD on this one so far! :-)
I wouldn't mind seeing Swamp Strength add only 1 to his defense as I think it might be a bit too powerful right now, but it's not a deal breaker for me yet.
I think he's ready for an initial playtest.
:word: I also think adding just one to both Attack and Defense is way easier to remember. I think using him well strategically will seem easy, but in reality be very tricky and fun to try to master, so a slight tweak for simplicities sake seems smart, IMO.

EDIT: I am not gonna lie, I am not generally a fan of these types of comic characters (zombies, etc.), but this guy may be a must have for me and one of my favorite pieces to play when all is said and done.
:word: +1 attack and +1 defense is a very reasonable boost.

[quozl]

I agree. Too much defense coupled with Regenerate could be discouraging to play against. I'm lowering Swamp Strength to +1 attack and +1 defense.

Who wants the initial playtest?

[IAmBatman]

I've got to build a new map over the next couple of days before I can test anything, and then there are some whole set tests for the Fan Four on my list before this ... if those get done, though, and no one else has done this, I can make it my next priority.

[Griffin]

This guy needs to be playtested, no? I would be glad to if we are ready.

[IAmBatman]

He's ready - have at it! :-)

[Griffin]

THE GREEN
Instead of moving and attacking, you may place Swamp Thing adjacent to an Evergreen Tree or Jungle Piece or on any swamp or grass space up to 12 spaces away. If Swamp Thing is engaged when using The Green, he will not take any leaving engagement attacks. After moving Swamp Thing with The Green, remove 1 Wound Marker from this Army Card.This is too powerful. Please limit it to 5 spaces at the highest, of there will be many situations where on the right map, he will disappear over and over and over until he is healed, and then he will combat again, and heal again if necessary.

[Griffin]

He's ready - have at it! :-)
Can't do it now, cause it is currently broken.

[IAmBatman]

If "grass space" was removed from that power, it'd be fine as is. If it stays as is, I don't think it needs to go down to 5 spaces (this is Superheroscape, threat ranges of 12 are about average) but it could go down to 8-10 and have a restriction that you have to start on a swamp or grass space or next to those terrains (I think this could be just a grass/swamp space power, though, I'm not sure if the tree inclusions are necessary).

[Griffin]

If "grass space" was removed from that power, it'd be fine as is. If it stays as is, I don't think it needs to go down to 5 spaces (this is Superheroscape, threat ranges of 12 are about average) but it could go down to 8-10 and have a restriction that you have to start on a swamp or grass space or next to those terrains (I think this could be just a grass/swamp space power, though, I'm not sure if the tree inclusions are necessary).The problem with limiting it is you are even furthering his limited drafting potential. I think we want to be able to use him much more than you would be able to if you further restricted his placements. I think a smaller range is a quick easy game balance answer, no real reason to skirt that IMO.

[IAmBatman]

In that case, I think 5 is waaaaaay too small. It'd just feel like limited flying. (Speaking of, I think we should consider making this "a same level space" so it avoids feeling like flying.
I think 8 should be the minimum here, as you're giving up the normal move and attack to do this. I could see it working just fine at 10.
Honestly, I don't think it'd lose any real gameplay if the tree aspect was cut, since there's grass all over most maps. Grass and swamp alone would make him more playable and would tighten up the power a bit.

[IAmBatman]

Here's my suggested edit:

THE GREEN
Instead of moving and attacking, you may place Swamp Thing on any same-level swamp or grass space up to 10 spaces away. If Swamp Thing is engaged when using The Green, he will not take any leaving engagement attacks. After moving Swamp Thing with The Green, remove 1 Wound Marker from this Army Card.

I think that would keep him in check just fine without limiting draftability at all and it's also about a line shorter than the current version.

[Griffin]

Here's my suggested edit:

THE GREEN
Instead of moving and attacking, you may place Swamp Thing on any same-level swamp or grass space up to 10 spaces away. If Swamp Thing is engaged when using The Green, he will not take any leaving engagement attacks. After moving Swamp Thing with The Green, remove 1 Wound Marker from this Army Card.

I think that would keep him in check just fine without limiting draftability at all and it's also about a line shorter than the current version.
I hate the "same level" restrictions. :?

Why is 5 spaces "teleport" bad? And can you really not foresee how a huge teleportation power on a figure is incredibly dangerous when they can also heal each time they use it?

[Lord Pyre]

Here's my suggested edit:

THE GREEN
Instead of moving and attacking, you may place Swamp Thing on any same-level swamp or grass space up to 10 spaces away. If Swamp Thing is engaged when using The Green, he will not take any leaving engagement attacks. After moving Swamp Thing with The Green, remove 1 Wound Marker from this Army Card.

I think that would keep him in check just fine without limiting draftability at all and it's also about a line shorter than the current version.
I hate the "same level" restrictions. :?

Why is 5 spaces "teleport" bad? And can you really not foresee how a huge teleportation power on a figure is incredibly dangerous when they can also heal each time they use it?

Yeah, at this rate, he can easily kill Thor, and potentially Superman, by hitting them a few times, and then running away to heal, and repeating.
I think a 5 or 6 teleport would be good, without the restriction for same level. That way he can kind of fly, and still be able to run away, but for actual flying figures, they could still catch him, which makes sense to me, because if you want to beat the earth, fly above it, ya know? ;)

[IAmBatman]

I think a same level restriction would be perfectly thematic here, though. It doesn't make sense to me for him to use this power to scale huge mountains and the like ...
And if it's same level, then 5 spaces isn't even worth it in Superscape.
Either way, I think a minimum of 8 spaces is needed. There are very, very few C3G units that can't make up 8 spaces and get in an attack in a single turn (and those who can't are mostly being drafted for things other than their own offensive prowess).
I'd oppose this going as low as 5 spaces. I think that's lame, not very "super," and not appropriate for SuperHeroscape. I think saying that 8-10 spaces for this power is too much is an overreaction. I think 10 spaces if there's a same level restriction or 8 spaces without that restriction works just fine.

[quozl]

8 spaces seems a good compromise and is the same number of spaces that Nightcrawler can Bamf! when he doesn't attack.

Changing the first post again!

[IAmBatman]

I can live with that. And I think if Griff still thinks 8 spaces on this is broken, he's been drinking too much crack. :-P
I'll playtest this one if he decides he doesn't want to yet. But, first, whole set testing to do tomorrow and map to build tonight!

[Lord Pyre]

So... Invisible Woman gives bonuses to scientists?

Was that intentional or not? ;)

[SirGalahad]

So... Invisible Woman gives bonuses to scientists?

Was that intentional or not? ;)

I'm sure I don't know what you're talking about. :shrug:

[Lord Pyre]

So... Invisible Woman gives bonuses to scientists?

Was that intentional or not? ;)

I'm sure I don't know what you're talking about. :shrug:

Front page, under synergies.

[IAmBatman]

No such thing as a Fantastic Force Field power ...
Now Fantastic Forcefield 4 on the other hand ...

[quozl]

No such thing as a Fantastic Force Field power ...
Now Fantastic Forcefield 4 on the other hand ...

I'm sure I don't know what you're talking about. ;)

[Wolvie]

maan I love it and hate it when these small spoilers on what your doing in the secret society of C3G comes up:)

PLease give us some more soon!!

[SirGalahad]

THE GREENInstead of moving and attacking, you may place Swamp Thing adjacent to an Evergreen Tree or Jungle Piece or on any swamp or grass space up to 8 spaces away. If Swamp Thing is engaged when using The Green, he will not take any leaving engagement attacks. After moving Swamp Thing with The Green, remove 1 Wound Marker from this Army Card.


SWAMP STRENGTH
If Swamp Thing is on a swamp space, add one die to his Attack and Defense.

CUT DOWN TO SIZE
When Swamp Thing attacks with a normal attack, he receives one less fewer attack die for each Wound Marker he has.


If the front edge of the 4-hex evergreen is 8 spaces away, can he placed on the far side of that (11 spaces from his current location)? The wording seems unclear.

Since he only has a normal attack, you don't need "with a normal attack" in CUT DOWN TO SIZE.

I think Griffin said he was taking on the initial playtest.

[quozl]

If the front edge of the 4-hex evergreen is 8 spaces away, can he placed on the far side of that (11 spaces from his current location)? The wording seems unclear.
Since he only has a normal attack, you don't need "with a normal attack" in CUT DOWN TO SIZE.

I think Griffin said he was taking on the initial playtest.

The Green seems pretty clear on the number of spaces to me. He can be placed up to 8 spaces away and that space must be adjacent to an evergreen tree or jungle piece or on a swamp or grass space.

As for Cut Down To Size and Swamp Strength, I'll get the wording modified now. Thanks!

Also, it's first come, first serve on the initial playtest. Griffin was going to do it but playtested someone else instead while the spaces on The Green got changed.

[IAmBatman]

maan I love it and hate it when these small spoilers on what your doing in the secret society of C3G comes up:)

PLease give us some more soon!!

Heh, exactly what we're going for. :-D
Fear not, though - the Fan Four set is cooking away, and we're slowly assembling enough pieces that we should be able to release a large booster not long after the Master Set is out.

If the front edge of the 4-hex evergreen is 8 spaces away, can he placed on the far side of that (11 spaces from his current location)? The wording seems unclear.
Since he only has a normal attack, you don't need "with a normal attack" in CUT DOWN TO SIZE.

I think Griffin said he was taking on the initial playtest.

The Green seems pretty clear on the number of spaces to me. He can be placed up to 8 spaces away and that space must be adjacent to an evergreen tree or jungle piece or on a swamp or grass space.

As for Cut Down To Size and Swamp Strength, I'll get the wording modified now. Thanks!

Also, it's first come, first serve on the initial playtest. Griffin was going to do it but playtested someone else instead while the spaces on The Green got changed.

Sir G's points are another reason I'm not in love with the inclusion of trees on The Green. I really think swamp and grass are enough.
I agree with his other changes as well - good stuff!
I'm hoping to find time to start the playtest today (Griff's signed up to do the last Guy Gardner test, so he's busy elsewhere). My one issue is that I just built Martian Warzone: The Heat for my whole set test last night, and now I'm realizing it has no swamp, grass, or tress on it ... so I'm trying to decide if I want to proxy rock as grass, or just see how well he does on a battlefield where he cannot use The Green.

[Scapemage]

maan I love it and hate it when these small spoilers on what your doing in the secret society of C3G comes up:)

PLease give us some more soon!!

Heh, exactly what we're going for. :-D
Fear not, though - the Fan Four set is cooking away, and we're slowly assembling enough pieces that we should be able to release a large booster not long after the Master Set is out.

If the front edge of the 4-hex evergreen is 8 spaces away, can he placed on the far side of that (11 spaces from his current location)? The wording seems unclear.
Since he only has a normal attack, you don't need "with a normal attack" in CUT DOWN TO SIZE.

I think Griffin said he was taking on the initial playtest.

The Green seems pretty clear on the number of spaces to me. He can be placed up to 8 spaces away and that space must be adjacent to an evergreen tree or jungle piece or on a swamp or grass space.

As for Cut Down To Size and Swamp Strength, I'll get the wording modified now. Thanks!

Also, it's first come, first serve on the initial playtest. Griffin was going to do it but playtested someone else instead while the spaces on The Green got changed.

Sir G's points are another reason I'm not in love with the inclusion of trees on The Green. I really think swamp and grass are enough.
I agree with his other changes as well - good stuff!
I'm hoping to find time to start the playtest today (Griff's signed up to do the last Guy Gardner test, so he's busy elsewhere). My one issue is that I just built Martian Warzone: The Heat for my whole set test last night, and now I'm realizing it has no swamp, grass, or tress on it ... so I'm trying to decide if I want to proxy rock as grass, or just see how well he does on a battlefield where he cannot use The Green.
Test Swamp Thing on Swamp Thing (BoV map). After all, the map was named after him... (In my opinion)

[IAmBatman]

Well, I just built a map yesterday and don't have room to build a new one anywhere else, so I'll let someone else test that one once he hits the playtesting phase. :-P

[Scapemage]

Well, I just built a map yesterday and don't have room to build a new one anywhere else, so I'll let someone else test that one once he hits the playtesting phase. :-P
*grumbles*Has to be a hero*grumbles*

[quozl]

or just see how well he does on a battlefield where he cannot use The Green.

I don't think that's such a good idea as I doubt he'd be drafted for a map without any green.

[IAmBatman]

I'll just proxy rock as grass, then. That should do the trick and I did similar terrain proxying when I was testing the Street Thugs way back when.

[Hahma]

Funny, I didn't know anything about Swamp-Thing before this thread, though I've heard of him, I just never read anything with him in it. I just picked up the last few issues of The Thunderbolts (I've never read them before but am familiar with some of the characters from other comics) and one of the covers I thought had Swamp-Thing on it as part of the Thunderbolts. It turns out to be Man-Thing (1st appearance May 1971 with Swamp-Thing coming out in July of 1971). Well hell's bells there are two big ugly green Things I've learned about recently. :D

I'd give him a test, but while doing 3 tests for Hostage Holdout Scenario, I've neglected a couple other units that I really have to get working on. Glad you were able to get this one Bats. :D

[IAmBatman]

Yep - have a game night tonight, but I'll try to start some tests when I get done with it. Keep working on the Master Set, Hahma. :-) We need you there.

[quozl]

Test Swamp Thing on Swamp Thing (BoV map). After all, the map was named after him... (In my opinion)

I hadn't built that map before so I built it tonight and did a little unofficial playtesting. Was fun!

[IAmBatman]

I don't think I'm going to be able to get started on this tonight - but it's my #1 playtesting priority, I promise.

[Scapemage]

Test Swamp Thing on Swamp Thing (BoV map). After all, the map was named after him... (In my opinion)

I hadn't built that map before so I built it tonight and did a little unofficial playtesting. Was fun!
I also built it yesterday. If I catch a test I'll test him on it.

[Griffin]

Test Swamp Thing on Swamp Thing (BoV map). After all, the map was named after him... (In my opinion)

I hadn't built that map before so I built it tonight and did a little unofficial playtesting. Was fun!
I also built it yesterday. If I catch a test I'll test him on it.
I would rather test him C3G style on Grundy's Grave map, but that is just me. ;)

[Griffin]

8 spaces seems a good compromise and is the same number of spaces that Nightcrawler can Bamf! when he doesn't attack.

Changing the first post again!
Emphasis on the highlighted part. Flash was scrutinized due to his evasion threat, and on the right map, I think Swamp Thing is even more dangerous, so forgive me if I am not persuaded by a Bat that seems to dismiss the danger/threat of this mechanic and has decided to play the initial test on a map that doesn't even have ANY OF THE ELEMENTS on which Swamp Thing requires. :poorpost:

Bats, when you do your testing, at least place some trees, proxy the molten lava as Swamp Water, proxy the dungeon as Grass, and proxy the Lava Field as Swamp. That should give us his maximum potential as his base line for his cost.

[IAmBatman]

Why should I be playtesting his maximum potential rather than his average, expected potential?

[Adam Souza]

Why should I be playtesting his maximum potential rather than his average, expected potential?

Because Heroscape models like the Dzu-Teh and Obsidian Guardians are costed at their maximum potential.

Or did you just forget to include a smiley face in your post ?

[IAmBatman]

Nah, I guess my experiences with Poison Ivy just make me want to take into account how they'd play with only reasonable amounts of a certain terrain on the battlefield. But I'll explore his maximum potential starting out here. No tests done tonight, but I'm getting this set up:

C3G PLAY TEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT SWAMP THING

- THEME TEST/ Check to see if there are any powers or stats on the test unit card that does not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character would and could do. Also consider destructible objects, and whether or not this characters powers should affect them.
PASS (Some people might be confused by the attack stat, but it makes sense given greater knowledge of the character)

- MIRROR TEST/ Check to see if the unit were played against itself, if there would be any loops that would upset the balance of the Game.
PASS

- BONDING TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing Bonding abilities to make sure there are no continual Bonding possibilities that do not stop appropriately or do not stop at all. This is to prevent loops in Bonding.
PASS

- SYNERGIES TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing synergies to make sure there are no factors that could break the game by making any unit to powerful or too weak.
? (I'll have to see how tough he is before commenting on what Invisible Woman brings to the table for him)

- POWER CHECK/ Consider the test unit and all existing units and all glyphs to compare to and check for any powers that could be over amplified and break the game. Each power must define when it takes place, who or what it affects, and What are the stipulations on the power if there are any.
PASS

- FUN TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play.
PASS

- FUN COMPETITIVE TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play against.
PASS

- DRAFTING TEST/ Consider whether or not this design is worth drafting.
PASS at 240-250 points no less!

- USAGE TEST/ Consider whether or not all of the powers on this card were used or at least usable.
PASS (Absolutely used all of them, almost constantly)

- STRATEGY TEST/ Consider whether or not the design offers any real strategy or interesting tactics to the overall game.
PASS (The when to sacrifice his attack to heal was an interesting decision, somewhat lessened by the effects of Cut Down to Size - bringing teammates into things increases the strategic complexity though and leads to some fun and interesting decisions, from army building to Order Marker placement and so on)

SPECIAL MAP NOTE: For the sake of testing Swamp Thing's maximum potential, I played Martian Warzone: The Heat as if every space were swamp or swamp water instead of the terrain type they really were.

- Heavy Hitter or Mid-Level Hero/ Does it pass?

TEST 1
Map: Martian Warzone: The Heat
Units: Swamp Thing (250) vs. Hawkgirl (225)
Hawkgirl wins, with 0 wounds, on turn 3 of round 1. Double attacks are the bane of slow healers. Swamp Thing actually never attacked in this game because by the time he wanted to, he was too cut down to size to bother, and hopped away to heal again. Swamp Thing healed three times in this game, but Hawkgirl's Swoop proved too much.

TEST 2
Map: Martian Warzone: The Heat
Units: Swamp Thing (250) vs. Iron Man (240)
It felt like an uphill battle at times, but Iron Man prevailed on Turn 1 of Round 3, despite Swamp Thing having all of his terrain advantages. Swamp Thing healed three wounds and spent more time using the Green to move around and heal than he did attacking. He put 3 wounds on Iron Man in about two attacks. Iron Man's double attack and an initiative switch in round 3 favoring Iron Man proved enough to whittle Swamp Thing down, though.

TEST 3
Map: Martian Warzone: The Heat
Units: Swamp Thing (250) vs. Flash (250)
Flash wins on turn 3 or round 2 with 3 wounds on his card. This one was pretty close, but it was Swamp Thing who felt like he was fighting an uphill battle. Once Flash abandoned his special attack (which just couldn't crack Swamp Thing's defense most of the time) and switched to hit and run attacks, Swamp Thing ended up having to run and heal instead of attacking and he could never get that last wound on Flash. Considering that it feels like his ceiling on a 100% Swamp Map is 250 points, and he's likely balanced lower than that, I wouldn't pass this guy at more than 240 points at this point.
(Still lots of tests left to run!)

TEST 4
Map: Martian Warzone: The Heat
Units: Swamp Thing (250) vs. Colossus (260)
As usual, Swamp Thing was looking good until he started taking wounds. Colossus wins on turn 2 of round 2 with only 1 wound. Once Swamp Thing took wounds he had to choose between either running and healing or attacking (which was not effective against Steel Skin and 6 defense unless he had all his boosts). Even with height advantage most of the game and swamp strength, he just couldn't crack Colossus. Even after my last post, I wanted to test Swamp Thing against an expensive single attacker to see if his issues were just with multiple attackers. Not so. I wouldn't go over 240 points on this guy right now.

TEST 5
Map: Martian Warzone: The Heat
Units: Swamp Thing (250) vs. Captain America (220)
Finally a good performance for Swamp Thing! He wins this one on turn 2 of round 2 with only 1 wound (though he did heal four, and had he not won initiative in round 2, this might've gone differently). Cap's single attack at a lower level wasn't quite enough to keep up with Swamp Thing and Counter Strike and Tactician did not come into play. Given this test and what Swamp Thing can do to a slightly less mobile unit on an all swamp map with uneven terrain, I'd say Swamp Thing's ceiling is 230.
So, right now, for me, he's between 230 and 240 points.

_____________________________________________________________

- Squad / Does it pass?
Map: Martian Warzone: The Heat
Units: Swamp Thing (250) vs. Beat Cops x 4 (260)
Swamp Thing shows just how nasty he can be on an all swamp map when he's played carefully (the low attacks of the Cops didn't hurt either). He wins on Turn 1 of Round 6 with 2 wounds. Swamp Thing healed 12 wounds in all. Whenever he got up to 2 wounds, he'd move away and heal. He never got up to more than 3 wounds thanks to rolling 7 defense dice most of the time against 2 (thanks to the Swamp and height bonuses). In his perfect setting, it takes a stronger attack to take him out. That said, there were a few times where he was just an initiative switch and a defensive whiff away from being taken out. I think 240 is looking good right now.
_____________________________________________________________

- Army Test/ Does it pass?
Map: Martian Warzone: The Heat
Units: Swamp Thing (250), Green Arrow (150), and Black Canary (190) 590 vs. Martian Manhunter (300) and Solomon Grundy (290) 590
Swamp Thing did his part, putting four wounds on Martian Manhunter in a single attack, but he got caught without an Order Marker (Black Canary had it) and Grundy took him out with two savage attacks in a row. Grundy survived to win this one (he never died at all in this one) with no wounds on Turn 2 of Round 3. Martian Manhunter took out Green Arrow with a six skull attack from height before Green Arrow ever got off an attack. Swamp Thing only used The Green to engage initially - he never got a chance to use it to heal. Black Canary put the last two wounds on Martian Manhunter to kill him, once Swamp Thing was gone, but Grundy finished her off with ease. Swamp Thing is a Shark and needed more Order Markers in this one to fully shine. That's my fault for teaming him with another Shark in Black Canary. He still did 200 points worth of damage in this one, which qualifies him for MVP of his team. They were still 4 Grundy lives away from winning. Had Green Arrow not been taken out so quickly, this one might have gone differently. I'm still thinking 240 points is right for Swamp Thing.
_____________________________________________________________

Map: Martian Warzone: The Heat
Units: Swamp Thing (250), Invisible Woman, and Scarlet Witch 750 vs. Green Lantern Hal Jordan (350), Flash (250), and Green Arrow (150) 750
Swamp Thing's team won on turn 2 of round 7. Hex Sphere Disturbance and Speed Dodge kept Scarlet Witch and Flash in it forever, but Scarlet Witch finally outlasted him to win with 2 life remaining. Swamp Thing did his part, healing 3 wounds to stick around longer, putting 2 wounds on Flash, all the wounds on Green Arrow, 2 wounds on Hal Jordan, and taking 3 Battery Markers off Hal Jordan. Chaos Magic Curse disrupting special powers and Invisible Woman serving as the initial target (and averaging 2+ shields consistently for her defense) all made it easy for Swamp Thing to float around and take calculated shots. Before Flash took him apart with a solid attack roll versus a whiff followed by a fortunate initiative switch, Swamp Thing was surgically dismantling the enemy team. Right now, given how he's performed on an all Swamp Map, now that I feel I know how to play him better and build teams around him better, I'd say I'm back to thinking Swamp Thing is worth a full 250 points as is.

[Adam Souza]

Nah, I guess my experiences with Poison Ivy just make me want to take into account how they'd play with only reasonable amounts of a certain terrain on the battlefield.

In general, my scaping group doesn't even bother with Asphalt and concrete. Poison Ivy pretty much always has home field advantage, and Swamp Thing would be in his element.

[IAmBatman]

And the Street Thugs would stink!

[SirGalahad]

So just build a map a Central Park-type map, and everyone can be happy.

[quozl]

Bats, can you switch one of the army tests to include Invisible Woman with Swamp Thing?

[Adam Souza]

And the Street Thugs would stink!

Nah, we house ruled that road counts as concrete.

That's why I use Badru Valley for all my tests. It covers everything except lava and ice.

[IAmBatman]

Bats, can you switch one of the army tests to include Invisible Woman with Swamp Thing?

Sure, and good idea. Though if she's not broken with Flash, I'm confident this combo won't be an issue either.

[Scapemage]

8 spaces seems a good compromise and is the same number of spaces that Nightcrawler can Bamf! when he doesn't attack.

Changing the first post again!
Emphasis on the highlighted part. Flash was scrutinized due to his evasion threat, and on the right map, I think Swamp Thing is even more dangerous, so forgive me if I am not persuaded by a Bat that seems to dismiss the danger/threat of this mechanic and has decided to play the initial test on a map that doesn't even have ANY OF THE ELEMENTS on which Swamp Thing requires. :poorpost:

Bats, when you do your testing, at least place some trees, proxy the molten lava as Swamp Water, proxy the dungeon as Grass, and proxy the Lava Field as Swamp. That should give us his maximum potential as his base line for his cost.
Exactly why (if I catch the test) I'll be testing Swamp Thing on Swamp Thing, it's just his map.

[IAmBatman]

A couple of updates on my initial playtest (I'd love it if you linked this to the first post, quozl!) so I'm making progress slowly but surely here! :-)
I hope to do the last two Heavy Hitter tests still tonight.

[quozl]

Looking at the tests so far, I think he's not swampy enough. I propose that we remove the "instead of attacking" bit from The Green.

[IAmBatman]

I'm not sure if I like that one ... but it would encourage him to stay by his enemy when he does heal ...

[quozl]

I'm not sure if I like that one ... but it would encourage him to stay by his enemy when he does heal ...

Any ideas? Or do you like him as is, just at a lower point cost?

[IAmBatman]

I'll try him with your suggestion when I get to the next few tests. :-) It's growing on me as an idea.

[A3n]

I still think 8 spaces is too much move if he gets to attack as well (not to mention heal). I think if he gets to stealth move, attack & heal using the green then it should be less than his normal move, maybe 4.

Cheers

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I still think 8 spaces is too much move if he gets to attack as well (not to mention heal). I think if he gets to stealth move, attack & heal using the green then it should be less than his normal move, maybe 4.

Cheers
:word: Especially, if it is does not have the same level restriction Bats asked for a while back.

[quozl]

Cyprien moves 8 spaces with stealth flying and also has a healing power.

Swamp Thing's "stealth flying" is more restricted and his healing is dependent on using The Green.

I really don't see the problem.

[johnny139]

I don't think allow an attack after The Green would do much harm. What is the primary reason people think that power is broken? Swamp Thing can teleport away from battle and heal himself completely. If you want to attack with him, you'll have to get close - he doesn't have any range. I suppose you could dart around and attack people without Order Markers, but, well... keep them out of the swamp, in that case.

[A3n]

I don't think allow an attack after The Green would do much harm. What is the primary reason people think that power is broken? Swamp Thing can teleport away from battle and heal himself completely. If you want to attack with him, you'll have to get close - he doesn't have any range. I suppose you could dart around and attack people without Order Markers, but, well... keep them out of the swamp, in that case.

My opinion is that he isn't the flash. When using the power to reconstitute himself anywhere in the world it wasn't in the middle of a fight & it always took him time to reconstitute himself again. It's not thematic & it's too much for him in the HS game. I would say that Grass covers 90% of nearly all maps so it's not like it is an occasional thing either, it will pretty much be his normal move & if it is a swamp map, when using the power there is going to be a higher chance that he is going to end on a swamp piece which will also give him +1 attack & defence.

It's all too much for a fairly basic character in the comic world & the HS world.

Cheers

[IAmBatman]

I tend to agree with A3n here ... maybe we keep him as is and just stay open to a lower cost? I mean, he doesn't suck or anything. I wouldn't cost him any lower than 230.

[Griffin]

I still think 8 spaces is too much move if he gets to attack as well (not to mention heal). I think if he gets to stealth move, attack & heal using the green then it should be less than his normal move, maybe 4.

Cheers
:word: Especially, if it is does not have the same level restriction Bats asked for a while back.
:word:
Cyprien moves 8 spaces with stealth flying and also has a healing power.

Swamp Thing's "stealth flying" is more restricted and his healing is dependent on using The Green.

I really don't see the problem.

It is a healing power that forces him into engagement, so there is a risk instead of just a retreat.
His healing is going to be a factor on most maps, so it isn't really very restrictive.
I know. ;)

[quozl]

All right, all right! No changes, Bats. Please continue the playtesting as is. We'll recost when you're done.

[IAmBatman]

Squad test added. Swamp Thing outlasted 260 points worth of Beat Cops.

[Scapemage]

Squad test added. Swamp Thing outlasted 260 points worth of Beat Cops.
:woot: Go Swamp Thing! :woot:

[IAmBatman]

Hopefully I'll get in at least one of the Army tests today. I've got Scott Pilgrim on the docket this evening, though. :-)

[Adam Souza]

Scott Pilgrim is entirely worth seeing.

[IAmBatman]

One army test done, one to go! I don't think a Black Canary/Green Arrow army is the best fit for Swamp Thing. I'm going to try pairing him with a couple of Defenders and let him shine as a Shark a bit more.

[Scapemage]

One army test done, one to go! I don't think a Black Canary/Green Arrow army is the best fit for Swamp Thing. I'm going to try pairing him with a couple of Defenders and let him shine as a Shark a bit more.
Black Canary/Green Arrow works with Vigilantes better than anything else.

[IAmBatman]

OK, the test's all done! He has a decently high learning curve, but I think I figured out how to play him and how to build armies around him. Given that, I'd say 240-250 points is reasonable for him. :-)

[Hahma]

Great job Bats. It seems like there's a bit of a learning curve like you said, but he certainly did good in the second army test. Cool.

[quozl]

OK, then I propose we move to the ERB phase.

[Hahma]

yea

[A3n]

Yea

[IAmBatman]

yea for me and yea for GreyOwl.

[SirGalahad]

yea

[whitestuff]

Yea

[DEATHWALKER 1970]

OH YEAH!

(I know I have no voting power, just wanted to say that Mr Swampy is looking good!) :D

[tcglkn]

Units: Swamp Thing (250), Invisible Woman, and Scarlet Witch 750 vs. Green Lantern Hal Jordan (350), Flash (250), and Green Arrow (150) 750

Did I miss something or did you use 2 unreleased units in one playtest? I thought we were only allowed to use units that have been released to the public for playtesting. (Or are Heroes allowed to break that rule?)

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Two Yeas from the ole Webhead! (Me and Necro.)

[Griffin]

Yea

[Lord Pyre]

Units: Swamp Thing (250), Invisible Woman, and Scarlet Witch 750 vs. Green Lantern Hal Jordan (350), Flash (250), and Green Arrow (150) 750

Did I miss something or did you use 2 unreleased units in one playtest? I thought we were only allowed to use units that have been released to the public for playtesting. (Or are Heroes allowed to break that rule?)

Batman can do what he wants. Because HeIsBatman.

[quozl]

Swamp Thing sent to ERB.

[Adam Souza]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_izy_T_tOZXY/SZwImBbXL8I/AAAAAAAABy4/FEEkvPJAD4g/s320/Kool-Aid.jpg

OH YEAH!

(I know I have no voting power, just wanted to say that Mr Swampy is looking good!) :D

Ditto !!

[quozl]

Eclipse got back to me already and had this to say:

I wish I knew this guy better, but alas I don't. The only thing I can immediately add is that you should probably use the phrase "Swamp or Swamp Water tiles" for his powers.

I think swamp tiles covers both swamp and swamp water just like water tiles covers both water and swamp water but what do the rest of you think?

[IAmBatman]

Units: Swamp Thing (250), Invisible Woman, and Scarlet Witch 750 vs. Green Lantern Hal Jordan (350), Flash (250), and Green Arrow (150) 750

Did I miss something or did you use 2 unreleased units in one playtest? I thought we were only allowed to use units that have been released to the public for playtesting. (Or are Heroes allowed to break that rule?)


Batman can do what he wants. Because HeIsBatman.

Pretty much. http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/hsgriffin/th_bats2.gif?t=1279803820

(Serious answer: we don't want to leak more than necessary because a bit of secrecy down here keeps the energy and excitement for the project at high levels. But if we have a unit "On Deck," then it's OK for us to test with. We just don't want to show any of the public that card in advance of its release other than in the playtesting phase for that specific unit. Invisible Woman isn't technically On Deck yet, but she has gone through playtesting and it was an important combination to try out - and one quozl requested - so I bent the rules just a tad there).

Eclipse got back to me already and had this to say:

I wish I knew this guy better, but alas I don't. The only thing I can immediately add is that you should probably use the phrase "Swamp or Swamp Water tiles" for his powers.I think swamp tiles covers both swamp and swamp water just like water tiles covers both water and swamp water but what do the rest of you think?

What does it say on the Marro Drudge? That should be our precedent here.

[quozl]

]I think swamp tiles covers both swamp and swamp water just like water tiles covers both water and swamp water but what do the rest of you think?

What does it say on the Marro Drudge? That should be our precedent here.

The Drudge only refer to swamp water spaces. I don't think there is a unit that treats regular swamp spaces as anything special.

[IAmBatman]

]I think swamp tiles covers both swamp and swamp water just like water tiles covers both water and swamp water but what do the rest of you think?

What does it say on the Marro Drudge? That should be our precedent here.

The Drudge only refer to swamp water spaces. I don't think there is a unit that treats regular swamp spaces as anything special.

Hmm ... crap. I was afraid that was the case. Is there anything helpful in the SotM rulebook?

[quozl]

Hmm ... crap. I was afraid that was the case. Is there anything helpful in the SotM rulebook?

I just checked. While it says that swamp water is a type of water, it doesn't say anything about swamp tiles except for the map key.

[IAmBatman]

hmm ... it might be one that it's best to spell out to avoid confusion ... I don't suppose anything swamp related made the glossary of terms in the DnD Master Set?

[quozl]

Nothing there or in the FAQ. The problem with spelling it out is that it makes wording The Green really awkward. I think it might be best to just spell it out in the Clarifications in this thread.

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, and that power is already pretty busy ... personally, though, I'd rather just drop the part with the trees (which I really don't think will change his value greatly) and make it just work with swamp and grass, and spell out the swamp part a bit more to avoid obvious FAQ issues without making it too wordy.

[quozl]

I really do like the trees and jungle pieces there as a way to get more height but let's see what we can do. Current wording:

THE GREEN
Instead of moving and attacking, you may place Swamp Thing adjacent to an Evergreen Tree or Jungle Piece or on any swamp or grass space up to 8 spaces away. If Swamp Thing is engaged when using The Green, he will not take any leaving engagement attacks. After using The Green, remove 1 Wound Marker from this Army Card.

Proposed wording:

THE GREEN
Instead of moving and attacking, you may place Swamp Thing up to 8 spaces away if the destination space is either adjacent to an Evergreen Tree or Jungle Piece, or is a grass tile, swamp tile, or swamp water tile. If Swamp Thing is engaged when using The Green, he will not take any leaving engagement attacks. After using The Green, remove 1 Wound Marker from this Army Card.

[IAmBatman]

THE GREEN
Instead of moving and attacking, you may place Swamp Thing up to 8 spaces away either on a space is either adjacent to an Evergreen Tree or Jungle Piece, or on a grass tile, swamp tile, or swamp water tile space. If Swamp Thing is engaged when using The Green, he will not take any leaving engagement attacks. After using The Green, remove 1 Wound Marker from this Army Card.

(For purposes of copying and pasting):
Instead of moving and attacking, you may place Swamp Thing up to 8 spaces away either on a space adjacent to an Evergreen Tree or Jungle Piece, or on a grass, swamp, or swamp water space. If Swamp Thing is engaged when using The Green, he will not take any leaving engagement attacks. After using The Green, remove 1 Wound Marker from this Army Card.

[quozl]

I like the rewording!

New ERB came in:

The stats seem mostly in line, though I personally would have given him 6 instead of 5. I looked at the revision history and read over the current powers. I have to say, I don't remember Swamp Thing being affected by loss of body mass as you have in Cut Down To Size. I also see you folded Regenerate into The Green. While that's nice, as I remember Swamp Thing is much more powerful than that. In fact, during the original Crisis maxi-series, I remember Swamp Thing being destroyed by the Anti-Moniter's anti-matter wave and resurrecting in the next panel. He is the representation of the earth in the DC universe, after all. Those are just my observations.

Wulfhunter667

This is a concern of mine also. Have we weakened Swamp Thing too much?

[tcglkn]

I like the rewording!

New ERB came in:

The stats seem mostly in line, though I personally would have given him 6 instead of 5. I looked at the revision history and read over the current powers. I have to say, I don't remember Swamp Thing being affected by loss of body mass as you have in Cut Down To Size. I also see you folded Regenerate into The Green. While that's nice, as I remember Swamp Thing is much more powerful than that. In fact, during the original Crisis maxi-series, I remember Swamp Thing being destroyed by the Anti-Moniter's anti-matter wave and resurrecting in the next panel. He is the representation of the earth in the DC universe, after all. Those are just my observations.

Wulfhunter667

This is a concern of mine also. Have we weakened Swamp Thing too much?

Maybe, just boost his healing power to "up to 2 wounds" per use of The Green.

[quozl]

This is a concern of mine also. Have we weakened Swamp Thing too much?

Maybe, just boost his healing power to "up to 2 wounds" per use of The Green.

There are plenty of ways to make Swamp Thing stronger. The real question is "should we?" Is he thematic enough or does he need to be beefed up to match his depiction in modern comics?

I'm going to call a vote on this: either vote YEA to move to the playtesting phase or vote NAY to rework Swamp Thing.

[IAmBatman]

I like him as is, but I could see justification for him being stronger too. Since I don't have strong feelings about the character, I'm going to abstain from this vote (and take GreyOwl with me. :-P ).

[Scapemage]

I like him as is, but I could see justification for him being stronger too. Since I don't have strong feelings about the character, I'm going to abstain from this vote (and take GreyOwl with me. :-P ).
:confused: Is that a yes, a no, are are you notparticipating?

[IAmBatman]

It's a - it's not important enough to me either way so I'll get out of the way of those it's more important to.
I'm happy with him at 240-250 points, but I'd also be happy with him at 320-330 points.

[Hahma]

I would have to abstain as well. Not to cop out, this vote is about the theme of the character being represented correctly enough and I know nothing about him. Googling him isn't enough to get the theme as I've never read a comic with him or even seen a animated cartoon with him, so I'd have absolutely nothing to go on. If the people that know the character are fine with him, then that's good enough for me, but if they want him beefier, then that's fine too.

[IAmBatman]

I'm at the same exact place - only comic I ever read with this guy was a Batman comic that was really more about Killer Croc ... Swamp Thing was just a side character and didn't really fight anyone.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I vote Yea move to playtesting. (BTW, Necro is back so just one vote here.)

[johnny139]

Since it's been established he's not really BROKEN or anything, from what I know of Swamp Thing - which isn't an extreme amount, compared to some people - I'd call him a little underpowered. Just my cents.

[whitestuff]

I would have to abstain as well. Not to cop out, this vote is about the theme of the character being represented correctly enough and I know nothing about him. Googling him isn't enough to get the theme as I've never read a comic with him or even seen a animated cartoon with him, so I'd have absolutely nothing to go on. If the people that know the character are fine with him, then that's good enough for me, but if they want him beefier, then that's fine too.
I'm going to have to say the same...

[Griffin]

I like this level of ST, and I am not familiar with the current DC elemental that he has become. I also see a need for figures to be in this point cost area.

I vote Yea.

[Grishnakh]

Hey guys, I know I'm not a member of the team or anything but I own the first 30 or so issues of the original Swamp Thing series. In fact the first 10 issues, with art by Bernie Wrightson, are amongst my most treasured comics. (I did not care for what they eventually did with the character, the first stories had more of a horror story feel, similar to a Frankenstein tale, later issues became way too much like science fiction with aliens, strange monsters, etc.)

Anyway one of Swamp Things original powers was the ability to regenerate. He could easily regrow severed body parts. So, was a power similar to what the D&D troll has ever considered or am I too late to the party here?

Anyway, whatever you guys come up with I know I'll have a blast playing. I even already have the figure ready and waiting to go!

[quozl]

Hey guys, I know I'm not a member of the team or anything but I own the first 30 or so issues of the original Swamp Thing series. In fact the first 10 issues, with art by Bernie Wrightson, are amongst my most treasured comics. (I did not care for what they eventually did with the character, the first stories had more of a horror story feel, similar to a Frankenstein tale, later issues became way too much like science fiction with aliens, strange monsters, etc.)

Anyway one of Swamp Things original powers was the ability to regenerate. He could easily regrow severed body parts. So, was a power similar to what the D&D troll has ever considered or am I too late to the party here?

Anyway, whatever you guys come up with I know I'll have a blast playing. I even already have the figure ready and waiting to go!

I'm right there with you Grishnakh! My first comics ever were a few of the early issues. I think #2-5 or something like that. Regenerate was a separate power, not tied to The Green (which is a nod to what Alan Moore did to the character) but there were balance issues with a figure who could teleport and heal every turn so some sacrifices had to be made. While I know what we have currently is not nearly as powerful as he is in the comics, I think he is a good playable figure with the theme of the comic character. My only concern is if others think that the scaling back of his powers make him unthematic. As long as the theme is there, I'll press forward but I don't want to go forward if we're losing people's thematic connection with the character.

I hope that makes sense.

[A3n]

My impressions of Swamp Thing (& yeah mine would have to be shaped by the early horror style depictions of him but I have seen some of the later comics) is that:

he is hard to kill - wounds don't mean much to him
he regenerate regulary
he can reconstitute himself from one place to another from swamp & plants materials
he is strong but not Superhero strong (so compared to the likes of Batman he would be stronger but probably less then Captain America)
getting an arm cut off just grows back & doesn't make him weaker
he isn't a tactical fighter, or even trained fighter
when he moves it is deliberate & not fast
he is scary to even those that he is trying to help :D


Having said all that, even though the current write-up doesn't really fit the above, it does still give me a feeling of him. So I am happy to go ahead with the first post if that is what everyone else is happy to do, but I am also fine if the decision is to go back & try to capture something more like what is above.

Cheers

~ A3n on the fence :p

[Grishnakh]

The last thing I wanted to do is to stir up trouble for you guys! While I agree with the powers A3n mentioned above I know I'll enjoy whatever way you guys decide to go with Swampy. This guy would be tough for me to pin down as well. I don't envy your job!

[NecroBlade]

Yea to playtesting.

Thanks for stopping in, Grishnak!

[quozl]

So 3 votes to go ahead with playtesting and 5 votes to abstain.

SirGalahad, what is your vote?

[A3n]

So 3 votes to go ahead with playtesting and 5 votes to abstain.

SirGalahad, what is your vote?

Which way do you want to take it Quozl?

[Hahma]

So 3 votes to go ahead with playtesting and 5 votes to abstain.

SirGalahad, what is your vote?

Which way do you want to take it Quozl?

:shock: ...........well at least you were gentleman enough to ask him which way he wants to take it. Some people (mostly in prison) wouldn't even offer options. :shock::p

[quozl]

I think he retains his theme how he is now so I would be satisfied moving forward.

I just want to end up with a Swamp Thing that others find thematic too.

[A3n]

So 3 votes to go ahead with playtesting and 5 votes to abstain.

SirGalahad, what is your vote?

Which way do you want to take it Quozl?

:shock: ...........well at least you were gentleman enough to ask him which way he wants to take it. Some people (mostly in prison) wouldn't even offer options. :shock::p

:rofl:

[IAmBatman]

lol, after catching up with everything here, I'm going to change my vote to let's move forward to playtest (x2 thanks to GreyOwl).
I mean, I guess in a pinch we could drop Cut Down to Size and lower his normal attack, but I like the thematic reasons behind both of those decisions, so I say onwards and upwards! :-)

[SirGalahad]

So 3 votes to go ahead with playtesting and 5 votes to abstain.

SirGalahad, what is your vote?

yea to playtesting
We can always adjust if needed.

[IAmBatman]

He passes to playtesting!

[Griffin]

lol, after catching up with everything here, I'm going to change my vote to let's move forward to playtest (x2 thanks to GreyOwl).
I mean, I guess in a pinch we could drop Cut Down to Size and lower his normal attack, but I like the thematic reasons behind both of those decisions, so I say onwards and upwards! :-)
You have been sitting on that GO glyph of x2 vote for a while now. Has he bought you dinner yet? :p

[IAmBatman]

Is that what he does for those who sit on him? :-P

[NecroBlade]

:rofl:

[quozl]

Hidicul's playtest report:


C3G PLAY TEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT SWAMP THING

- THEME TEST/ Check to see if there are any powers or stats on the test unit card that does not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character would and could do. Also consider destructible objects, and whether or not this characters powers should affect them.
PASS

- MIRROR TEST/ Check to see if the unit were played against itself, if there would be any loops that would upset the balance of the Game.
PASS

- BONDING TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing Bonding abilities to make sure there are no continual Bonding possibilities that do not stop appropriately or do not stop at all. This is to prevent loops in Bonding.
PASS

- SYNERGIES TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing synergies to make sure there are no factors that could break the game by making any unit to powerful or too weak.
PASS

- POWER CHECK/ Consider the test unit and all existing units and all glyphs to compare to and check for any powers that could be over amplified and break the game. Each power must define when it takes place, who or what it affects, and What are the stipulations on the power if there are any.
PASS

- FUN TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play.
PASS

- FUN COMPETITIVE TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play against.
PASS

- DRAFTING TEST/ Consider whether or not this design is worth drafting.
PASS

- USAGE TEST/ Consider whether or not all of the powers on this card were used or at least usable.
PASS

- STRATEGY TEST/ Consider whether or not the design offers any real strategy or interesting tactics to the overall game.
PASS

- Heavy Hitter or Mid-Level Hero/ Does it pass?
[Spoiler]

TEST 1
Map: SWAMP THING
Units: Iron Man
Iron Man wins round 2 turn 3 with 3 wounds. The Green was used 2 times and Swamp Thing won both initative rolls.
TEST 2
Map: SWAMP THING
Units:Captian America
Swamp Thing wins round 3 turn 3 with 2 wounds. The Green was used 6 times, 2 of which were used to gain hieght quickly at the start of the game. Swamp Thing only took 1 wound from Counter Strike the entire game, but also spent all of round 2 using The Green to heal. The final turn was a 5 skull attack vs 1 shield and 3 wounds already on Cap.
TEST 3
Map: SWAMP THING
Units: Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom wins round 2 turn 1 with no wounds. The Green was used once. Dr. Doom rolled 4 skulls vs a wiff then won initative and rolled 3 skulls vs 1 shield.
TEST 4
Map: SWAMP THING
Units: The Flash
Flash wins round 2 turn 1 with no wounds. The Green was used once. Swamp Thing had 4 wounds from a Fist Fusilade round and couldn't get far enough away for the healing to be of any use.
TEST 5
Map:SWAMP THING
Units: Green Goblin
Swamp Thing wins round 6 turn 3 with 1 wound, The Green was used 11 times, it had enough range to keep him out of reach for Goblies dual attack with the Pumpkin Bomb, and keeping him on swamp and swamp water gave him enough defense to block all of the Goblins attacks. Then once He was healed up he would try to engage Goblin on using Swamp Strength, and thanks to a few key wiffs on Goblins part was able to get the win.

Swamp Thing can be pretty nasty in the swamp, but suffers like all non fliers against range and especialy ranged fliers, but nothing new there. Try and keep him in the swamp and barring any bad rolls, he should survive long enough to at least earn his points for you.


[spoiler/]
_____________________________________________________________


- Squad / Does it pass?
Map: SWAMP THING
Units: Marro Stingers x4
[Spoiler]
Stingers win round 2 turn 1 with none destroyed. They also got the extra attack die all 3 times it was rolled for. The Green was used 3 times, the first 1 were to tey and gain hieght early by the Stingers start zone, not a smart move when faceing squads, but with heros it can be devistating.


[spoiler/]
_____________________________________________________________


- Army Test/ Does it pass?
Map: SWAMP THING
Units: Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy, Green Goblin, Deadpool, Bob, and Joker (Team Insaneo) 1025 vs Swamp Thing, Spider-Man, Wolverine, Iron Man, and Angel 1010
[Spoiler]
Angel grabs Wolvie and flys and advances. Goblin advances and attacks Wolverine but is blocked. Swamp Thing uses The Green to advance and Joker starts gaining high ground by his start zone. Then Harley advances to hieght and throws her Smilex Bomb at the space between Wolvie and Swamp Thing and manages to deal 1 damage to Angel, Wolverine, and Swamp Thing. Angel grabs Wolverine again and this time flies him to engage Harley and Goblin with hieght. Deadpool advances and attacks Angel who blocks and flys away, then attacks wolverine but is blocked. Harley takes even higher ground by danceing around Wolverine b ut also gets blocked. Wolverine follows up with 2 attacks on Harley dealing a total of 3 wounds. (Acrobatic Manuver doesn't work so well with only 1 die) Goblin flys to hieght and bombs Angel on the way but wiffs the Pumpkin Bomb, then attacks Swamp Thing from hieght and deals 1 wound, but he doesn't have LOS on Harley. Swamp Thing uses The Green to heal while Joker wiffs an attack on Angel and Harley deals 2 wounds to Wolvie. Swamp Thing uses The Green again to heal his last wound and ends adjacent to Team Insaneo's start zone. Deadpool attacks Wolverine and deals 3 wounds and Harley's attack on him is blocked, X OM revealed on Wolvie healing him. Goblin flys over angel and drops another Pumpkin on him for 1 wound, then attacks Swamp Thing from hieght dealing 2 wounds. Wolverine attacks Harley and deals the last wound needed to take her out. Joker advances and attacks Angel but is blocked and Angel flys to Swamp Thing's side. Angel then grabs Swamp Thing and flys him into Team Insano's start zone and places him engaged with Bob and Ivy, and Angel deals 2 wounds to Ivy. Wolverine attacks Joker 3 times for a total of 5 wounds and Ivy rolls a 7 for Pheremones on Swamp Thing before taking a wound for running away. Swamp Thing attacks Bob, and he goes splat with a wiff taking 3 wounds, and Ivy keeps running twords the trees. Swamp Thing uses The Green to heal and gain some ground on Ivy while Deadpool deals 1 wound to Wolverine. Joker moves all of the OMs onto Iron Man and Spider-Man and Ivy rolls a 9 for Pheremons on Swamp Thing then runs away again. Iron Man advances and attacks Ivy from hieght with 5 skulls vs wiff taking her out. Goblin takes a chance and drops a Pumpkin onto Wolverine and Joker, but both block, then attacks Wolverine dealing 2 wounds. Spidey advances. Joker moves all the OMs onto Spidey. Deadpool moves to attack Iron Man and deals 2 wounds. Spidey engages Deadpool and deals 3 wounds. Joker tries his "Wanna Hear Another" on Wolverine but gets blocked. Spidey attacks Deadpool again but this time is blocked. For the next few rounds Joker managed to put all the OMs on Spidey, would attack the closest enemy with "Wanna Hear Another" sometimes getting some wounds but most times not doing anything, followed by Goblin using 2 OMs to fly around dropping Pumpkins then attacking whoever he was closest to, and the X OM always on Deadpool to keep him alive and threatning. The battle went until round 11 turn 1 when Deadpool dealt the final wound to Spidey. Team Insaneo wins round 11 turn 1, Deadpool being the only survivor with no wounds thanks to his healing. Swamp Thing used The Green 4 times, only once was it not used for healing.


[spoiler/]
_____________________________________________________________


- Army Test/ Does it pass?
Map: SWAMP THING
Units: Cyclops, Jean Grey, Ice Man, Beast, Angel and Professor X (Classic X-Men) 1000 vs Swamp Thing, Iron Man, Nightcrawler, Green Goblin, and Green Arrow 1000
[Spoiler]
The Professor activates Cyke and Jean and they advance. Swamp Thing advances. Next the Professor activates Cyke and Jean again with them advanceing and Cyke wiffing his attack on Swamp Thing. Goblin advances and this time Professor X activates Beast and Iceman sending them in to back up the other two. Swamp Thing engages Cyke dealing 1 wound. The Professor activates Beast and Cyke. Beast engages Swamp Thing and Goblin and has hieght on Goblin. Beast attacks Goblin dealing 3 wounds, and Cyke's attack on Swamp Thing is blocked. Swamp Thing deals 2 wounds to Cyke. Professor X activates Cyke and Jean. Cyke uses his Optic Blast to attack both Swamp Thing and Goblin, both block. Jean advances. Goblin flys over Swamp Thing and drops a Pumpkin on him so that the blast also hits Beast and Cyke. Swamp Thing blocks, but Cyke and Beast both take 1 wound which takes Cyke out. Goblin then takes hieght and attacks Jean but is blocked. This was a back and forth battle with a few stand out attacks like Swamp Things 6 skull attack on a wounded Beast who only managed 1 shield, and some 4 and 5 skull attacks that were only blocked because they were close enough to the Professor to reveal the X OM to save them, and some useful Throw rolls by Jean taking out Goblin and Swamp Thing. It wound up coming down to Nightcrawler vs Professor X, Angel, Iceman, and Jean Grey. Nightcrawler Telport Barraged pretty well taking out Jean and Professor X but with 3 wounds and some good blocks by Iceman it was only a matter of time. Classic X-Men win with Iceman with 2 wounds and Angel with 2 wounds. The Green was used 3 times.



[spoiler/]

Swamp Thing is fun to play with, but can get anoying to see across from you if you don't have any range, although ranged fliers would be better to counter him. His bouncing around makes it hard to keep up with him, and a fully healed Swamp Thing on swamp spaces is a nasty opponent indead as most wont survive long against 8 attack dice and getting past his 6 defense dice while in the swamp is a chore all it's own. Overall though he felt like his cost (when not trying to take down those ranged fliers) and played nice, though The Green takes some finesse to play and might take a little bit to get used to and learn the strategy behind it other then just healing him.

[IAmBatman]

I could see some justification from those results to lower him to 230 points, but I think 240 still looks OK too.

[Hidicul]

I could see some justification from those results to lower him to 230 points, but I think 240 still looks OK too.
He's not so good on 1 on 1, once he starts taking wounds he has a hard time breaking through defense, and when he uses The Green, there is nothing else on the field to intrest your opponent enough to leave him alone so he can bounce around to heal. Also a move of eight just doesn't seem to get him out of the way enough to keep your opponent out of range. He was able to out run Cap, after some finagling kept him far enough away from Goblin to do him some good.

[IAmBatman]

That's about my experience as well - he looks bad and tough until he starts taking some wounds and then, one-on-one, he's in trouble.
Healers always do better on teams, though, because it's harder for the enemy to concentrate fire on them in a way needed to get around their healing.

[Scapemage]

.
Healers always do better on teams, though, because it's harder for the enemy to concentrate fire on them in a way needed to get around their healing.
Exactly. Healers are meant for teams, they shouldn't be fighting solo. It's too bad we couldn't keep that "super-strong" aspect that Quozl had at the beginning though.

[Adam Souza]

He's sporting an 8/7 attack and 6/5 defense to start, that's a 300 point range stat line. Cut down to size and his alck of a ranged attack are the only things bringing his cost down.

He's going to play a bit like Arkillo. All his damage is going to be up front, and then he's going to be annoying difficult to kill like Deadpool if you TP him around.

Against a nonranged opponent without a travel power he can kite them all day long.

[A3n]

.
Healers always do better on teams, though, because it's harder for the enemy to concentrate fire on them in a way needed to get around their healing.
Exactly. Healers are meant for teams, they shouldn't be fighting solo. It's too bad we couldn't keep that "super-strong" aspect that Quozl had at the beginning though.

:confused: Why, nothing here suggests that that is needed. It sounds like he is balanced to me. Characters don't have to be able to do everything.

Cheers

[IAmBatman]

He's sporting an 8/7 attack and 6/5 defense to start, that's a 300 point range stat line. Cut down to size and his alck of a ranged attack are the only things bringing his cost down.

He's going to play a bit like Arkillo. All his damage is going to be up front, and then he's going to be annoying difficult to kill like Deadpool if you TP him around.

Against a nonranged opponent without a travel power he can kite them all day long.

Yep, lack of range and Cut Down to Size keep him down. He feels like 300 points in round 1, but then he starts taking wounds, his attack goes to crap, and he pretty much has to start running and healing. If he manages to avoid fire long enough to get back to 300 point level, he can be nasty again, but just as often he doesn't and he's never the same.
All in all, I think he's a lot of fun and plenty balanced at 240. He can certainly hit like he's worth more than 240 at times, though.

[Flame Gryphon]

My play-test should be in today.

[quozl]

And here it is!


C3G PLAY TEST FEEDBACK FORM
NAME OF THE TEST UNIT Swamp-Thing
- THEME TEST/ Check to see if there are any powers or stats on the test unit card that does not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character would and could do. Also consider destructible objects, and whether or not this characters powers should affect them.
PASS

- MIRROR TEST/ Check to see if the unit were played against itself, if there would be any loops that would upset the balance of the Game.
PASS

- BONDING TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing Bonding abilities to make sure there are no continual Bonding possibilities that do not stop appropriately or do not stop at all. This is to prevent loops in Bonding.
PASS

- SYNERGIES TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing synergies to make sure there are no factors that could break the game by making any unit to powerful or too weak.
PASS

- POWER CHECK/ Consider the test unit and all existing units and all glyphs to compare to and check for any powers that could be over amplified and break the game. Each power must define when it takes place, who or what it affects, and What are the stipulations on the power if there are any.
PASS

- FUN TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play.
PASS

- FUN COMPETITIVE TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play against.
PASS

- DRAFTING TEST/ Consider whether or not this design is worth drafting.
PASS

- USAGE TEST/ Consider whether or not all of the powers on this card were used or at least usable.
PASS

- STRATEGY TEST/ Consider whether or not the design offers any real strategy or interesting tactics to the overall game.
PASS

- Heavy Hitter or Mid-Level Hero/ Does it pass? YES, ALTHOUGH IT SEEMS HE IS EITHER UTTERLY DEFEATED, OR UTTERLY DEFEATS EVERY TIME.

TEST 1
Map: Grundy's Grave
Units: Swamp-Thing Vs. Green Goblin
Swamp-Thing wins with 3/5 wounds.

TEST 2
Map: Grundy's Grave
Units: Swamp-Thing Vs. Dr. Doom 1
Doom wins with 3/4 wounds.

TEST 3
Map: Grundy's Grave
Units: Swamp-Thing Vs. Iron Man
Iron Man wins with 0/4 wounds.

TEST 4
Map: Grundy's Grave
Units: Swamp-Thing Vs. Colossus
Colossus wins with 0/6 wounds.

TEST 5
Map: Grundy's Grave
Units: Swamp-Thing Vs. Flash
Swamp-Thing wins with 0/5 wounds.

_____________________________________________________________
- Squad / Does it pass? NO. Swampy never even stood a chance. The only reason ANY Agents were beaten was because of the Glyph of Mitonsoul.
Map: Grundy's Grave
Units: Swamp-Thing Vs. 2X Nakita Agents

Nakita Agents win, having lost 2/6 of them.

_____________________________________________________________
- Army Test/ Does it pass? YES
Map: Grundy's Grave
Units: Swamp-Thing, 2X Marro Drudges, Solomon Grundy, Poison Ivy, Fen Hydra, and Quasatch Hunters (1015) VS. Angel, Wolverine, Colossus, Iceman, and Professor X (1005)

At the mental command of Xavier, Angel moves up, carrying Prof. X, followed by Wolverine. At the same time, Swampy uses the Green to move up into the swamp water. At another mental suggestion, Colossus and Iceman moves next to the rest of the team. Poison Ivy also moves up. Wolverine moves next to the road, followed by Iceman who blasts Swampy for 2 Wounds. Three Drudges move closer to the swamp water.
The Drudges move again, one of them on a glyph of +1 Defense. Iceman blasts Swampy agin for 1 Wound. Despite his/it's wounds, Swampy uses the Green to move onto a glyph, which is revealed to be another +1 Defense glyph. Angel carries X over to another glyph; the glyph of +2 Move. The extra movement allows Wolverine to attack a Drudge, even though he fails. Grundy moves up, but can't get close enough to attack Wolvy. Wolvy and Icecube both attack, but only manage to defeat one Drudge.
Poison Ivy takes control of Wolverine and moves back, as Icy attacks her for 1 Wound, and Colossus moves closer to the battle. Grundy attack Icy for 3 Wounds. Angel moves X closer to the middle as Icy Deep Freezes the Fen Hydra for 2 Wounds, but fails to take off the order marker on it. The Hydra then proceeds to defeat Bobby.Colossus defeats the Drudge on the glyph, and Angel moves the Prof. next to Colossus.
Swampy Green's closer to the X-Men. Colossus claims the glyph of Defense, and defeats another Drudge as Angel moves X into cover. Wolverine charges, damaging Angel with 1 Wound. Angel and Colossus gang up on Wolvy, causing 3 Wounds. The two X-Men attack him again, but miss both strikes. Wolvy moves up to attack X, taking a leaving engagement strike in the process, but is blocked by the psychic defenses of X. Angel moves onto the defense glyph while carrying X while Colossus strikes Wolvy for 3 Wounds. Swampy moves next to X, and defeats him in one fell swoop. Stunned by the defeat of their leader, neither Colossus, nor Angel move.
Grundy moves towards Colossus as Wolvy is defeated by the latter. Changing directions, Grundy defeats Angel. Colossus moves onto the vacant glyph before he attacks Grundy, resulting in 1 Wound.
Swampy attacks him, but is completely blocked. Colossus returns the favor be hitting Swamp-Thing with 3 Wounds. Colossus defeats Swampy before being attacked by Solomon Grundy; no wounds. They trade blows until Colossus has an extra 2 Wounds, and Grundy is downed.
Ivy moves up, but misses her Plant Animation attack. As Colossus attempts to move closer, but must stop due to entangling vines. The plants miss again, and Colossus moves closer. Ivy fails to take control of Colossus, and so moves back, and strikes him with the plants. Colossus moves closer.
Colossus is finally close enough to damage Ivy with 2 Wounds. She fails to take control of him, but manages to damage him with the plants. Colossus finally defeats Ivy, then moves on to defeat a Quasatch.
The Hydra moves up, damaging Colossus with 1 Wound. Striking back, Colossus misses. The Hydra moves up...and defeats Piotr Rasputin.

Hydra: 2/4 Wounds
Drudges: 3/6 Remain
Quasatch Hunters: 2/3 Remain

_____________________________________________________________
- Army Test/ Does it pass? No. The only time Team One could have won was when Ivy controlled Wolverine.
Map: Grundy's Grave
Units: Swamp-Thing, Poison Ivy, and Solomon Grundy (695) VS. Wolverine, Khosumet the Darklord, Werewolf Lord, Dumetef Guard, and Taelord the Kyrie Warrior (700)


Swampy Green's onto the Glyph of Summoning, and summons Taelord so he can attack him next turn. Wolverine and Grundy both move toward Taelord and Swampy. Taelord attacks Swampy, but misses, as Ivy and Khosumet move closer to the middle. Plants extend from a nearby tree, damaging Taelord.
Swampy finishes off Taelord, as a howl is heard across the swamp, and the Werewolf moves in...Grundy moves onto the road as the Werewolf claims the glyph of Thorian...:duh: Both Ivy and Wolvy move closer to the middle.
The Werewolf attacks Grundy, dealing two wounds, and changing him...Swampy Green's to the front line as Grundy and the Werewolf both attack Ivy, dealing 2 Wounds. Angry at having been controlled, Grundy slams the Werewolf with 4 Wounds. Wolvy proceeds to defeat Grundy as Ivy attacks the Werewolf; failing both her Pheromone powers, AND her normal attack.
The Werewolf attacks her, but misses, and is attacked by Swampy for 1 Wound. as Grundy comes back from defeat...Wolvy then attacks Ivy but misses, and is taken over by Ivy.
The Wolf hits Swampy for 1 Wound, and who Green's away. Grundy loses control due to the Werewolf's power, and defeats Ivy as the Wolf itself attacks Grundy for 2 Wounds. Swampy moves up, but can't get close enough to the Wolf to attack. The Wolf attacks Grundy again for 1 Wound.
Grundy loses control again, and attacks Swampy, but is completely blocked. The Wolf takes out Grundy, and Wolvy takes the opportunity to attack Swampy for 2 Wounds. Swampy replies by attacking the Wolf, but is blocked. Wolvy attacks again, but is blocked.
The Wolf fails to take over Swampy, and misses his attack. Swampy attacks the Wolf, but misses again. Wolvy slashes the Swamp-Thing with 2 Wounds. Swampy attacks the Wolf, finally beating it as Wolvy misses him again.
Wolvy finishes the Swamp-Thing off with a final strike.

Wolverine: 0/6 Wounds
Khosumet: 0/3 Wounds.
Dumetef Guard: 0/1 Wounds.



All in all, he doesn't do well alone, and his healing ability is pretty slow. Also, he rarely stands a chance when fighting without the support of the rest of the army. He can last a long time, but he can rarely do much during that time BUT heal. He was incredibly fun to play, although it got a little annoying to fight him due to The Green.
</IMG>

[IAmBatman]

Hmm ... I'm still seeing some justification for his cost coming in at 230 here ... especially how poorly he does against squads.

[tcglkn]

Why was he tested against x2 a Unique Squad?

[IAmBatman]

Why was he tested against x2 a Unique Squad?

Oh yeah, forgot to comment on that - :lol: You know Nakita Agents are a Unique squad, right, Flame Gryphon?

[quozl]

I don't think it mattered much in this case. Looking over the playtests, I'd like to propose that he move to the Final Editing phase at 235 points.

[IAmBatman]

That's a cost no one's at yet! :-) yea (plus a yea for GreyOwl).

[quozl]

It also makes The Plant Team (Swamp Thing and Poison Ivy) an even 400 points.

[IAmBatman]

690, with Grundy, doesn't make for a bad Swamp meet either! :-)

[Hahma]

yea

[Flame Gryphon]

Why was he tested against x2 a Unique Squad?

Oh yeah, forgot to comment on that - :lol: You know Nakita Agents are a Unique squad, right, Flame Gryphon?

:oops: Sorry! I don't have that squad, and I've read a whole bunch of strategies about Gorrilanators and Nakitas so I assumed...:oops:

[IAmBatman]

How'd you use it to playtest if you don't have it ... ?

[NecroBlade]

Yea

[Flame Gryphon]

How'd you use it to playtest if you don't have it ... ?

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8600

[IAmBatman]

Ah, gotcha. You just didn't :rtfc: well enough! :-P