Gencon Championship 2010 top 16 players advance

[Grungebob]

1- Adam Tarr
2-Timothy Womochill
3- James Sitz
4- Eric Lashbrook
5- Chris Meyer
6- Ken Williams
7- Chris Kaelin
8- Brandon Jeeter
9- Mark Pickelsimer
10- Leighton Kan
11- Ben Schaub
12- Richard D'Ambrosio
13- Frank Balog
14- Eric Landry
15- Mark Pruitt
16- William Grant

[Fedex worker]

I don't know any of those people, but I think one is KC.

Woo! Go KC!

[Rich10]

Could someone let us know what their Heroscapers names are?

Also, it would be great if someone could post their armies.

[yagyuninja]

Thanks grungebob! Good job advancing players!

Now we need 'scaper names...who knows these folks?

[Fedex worker]

I am pretty sure Frank Balog is killercactus.

[Onacara]

Among the names are...

Jexik
Rychean (sure the year I dont pick him)
Lonewolf's Son
wdgrant

[yagyuninja]

One creepy google search later...

[Onacara]

dok is on the list...but you would be better off not connecting peoples names to their screennames without their ok first :wink:

[Kinseth]

Some big names making it to day 2. Wonder if the usual contenders(MattstersTruck, MaithiasMc, Spider_p, Hendel) are in this list too.

[rednax]

Well if it's already on the Internet... :wink:

~Rednax

[yagyuninja]

Eh, good point, Onacara. :)

[Onacara]

Some big names making it to day 2. Wonder if the usual contenders(MattstersTruck, MaithiasMc, Spider_p, Hendel) are in this list too.

Hendal is not on the list

[S1R_ART0R1US]

Yee Boy!! Ronin_Valentina and Menchi (If the last name is right) are repping NorCal!!!! :thumbsup: Matthias is on there too (If the last name is right).

EDIT: What normal common names...Eric, Chris, Mark, etc.

EDIT #2: Weird...My User Control Panel says this thread has 0 views...

EDIT #3: I'm guessing Pickle4192 (or whatever it is) is one there as Mark Pickelsimer. Seems like the type of name you make an screenname out of.

[yagyuninja]

So I'm guessing stubobj and ET86 are on there. I hope I'm right. :) I hope KC is there too. (woo fantasy draft)

[ROADRAGE]

Now if we can just find out what the top 16 are playing this year it's killing me not knowing. I need to see how my stingers did.

[yagyuninja]

You're right! Armies! And what was the die roll for reinforcements?

[dok]

I went 5-0 and took the top seed with Ratsx3 , Raelin, Q9, and a Fen Hydra. The five people I played went a combined 18-2 when they weren't playing me.

Day 2 upgrade is to 640. I'm pretty much settled on my upgrade, and I apologize in advance.

Tiny Timmy was #2 (5-0) with Heaviesx4, Marro Warriors, Grimnak, and Nerak.

Jexik (#3) (5-0) is playing Nilfheim and Greenscales - I don't know the exact breakdown.

ET86 (#4) is playing Greenscales, Raelin, and Zelrig.

Chris (#5) is playing ET86's Tree Town army: 10thx4, Marcus, and Airborne Elite.

Matthias (#6) is playing Knights, Gilbert, and airborne elite. He was 4-0 until he ran into my rats in the last round.

dragonmaster384 (#7) was my third game; he played Zelrig, Nilfheim, two squads of greenscales, and the 10 point ninjas.

#9 played Braxas and 4thx4.

I played Fishtako's #10 army first - Raelin, Q9, and Dividersx5. It was one of my closest matches.

Killercactus, #13, MADE DAY 2 WITH VIPERS. And Raelin and Q9, but still. Sick.

Rychean (#15), who I played in the fourth round, played 10thx3, Romansx2, Raelin, and Marcus. I believe he and wdgrant were the only 3-2 armies to make it.

wdgrant, my first round opponent, is playing stingersx5, Raelin, and a Hydra. Hot Hydra on Hydra action!

[S1R_ART0R1US]

Hopefully KC went and played his Q9, Raelin, Venocs x6. I know Menchi played the same thing (or similar) as he did last year: Krav, Finn, Knights x3, Alastair. Can't wait to hear more!

EDIT: Nice to see the greenscales do well. Nice work KC! Wow, 3 NorCalers for Day 2-way to be, gentlemen.

[yagyuninja]

Nice job, dok. And KC with the vipers. Fantastic.

[Fedex worker]

Is Matthias playing range????:confused::confused::confused::shock::shock:

[rym]

Kudos on Day One, dok!

And it looks like Rychean made it, too! Woohoo me for my picks!

It's cool to see that people branched out from taking the Deathreavers as the no-brainer unit and are actually trying to win this thing without being that guy with the complete d-bag army.

[NotsoP]

Kudos on Day One, dok!

And it looks like Rÿchean made it, too! Woohoo me for my picks!

It's cool to see that people branched out from taking the Deathreavers as the no-brainer unit and are actually trying to win this thing without being that guy with the complete d-bag army.

Except that #1 seed, kudos receiving guy. :wink:

No 'trons, lots of dragons, 'only' 6 Raelins (although she may show up as reinforcements.) I really expected to see some Phantom Knights. Interesting.

Congrats Day Two'ers, and good luck tomorrow!

Notsop

[Devil's Advocate]

I think my money is on Tim. I do not see Braxas who is 1 of their biggest threats and he can toss in Raelin to really raise their Defense.

Interesting army by Dok (although we all knew Q9 + Raelin would be in the army). If I had gone I was debating either a 5x Rat + Q9+Raelin army or an army similar to his except with AE instead of Hydra, although Hydra does leave more start zone openings for Day 2.

I wonder how many will specifically counterdraft for their 1st game opponent.

[gamjuven]

Well congrats to all who made it to day 2. I'm glad killercactus and Jexik made it. Always have to root for those two (they are part of my fantasy team as well). But yea I really need to see a translated list with the board names for the top 16. The armies listed next to the names would also be awesome. I'm sure that will all get added at some point in the future. No hurry, enjoy yourselves at gencon.

I am surprised by the lack of vydar ranged units besides Q9 in the top 16. No glads/blasts? Did anyone play them? There is an interesting mix but I am happy with all the melee armies that made it in. Great stuff. Always got to tip my hat to someone who plays with the vipers in a rat/Q9 environment. Very cool.

Good luck in day 2. I look forward to hearing who wins it all and how/if the gencon meta has changed/not changed.

[A_Train]

Congrats on backing up the talk, dok. And to everyone else who made Day 2, though it looks as though only MM moved on from my draft.

[Onacara]

I dont care who the winner is as THIS guy is the overall GENCON 2010 CHAMPION

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs106.ash2/38631_417431964701_583234701_4842727_2141884_n.jpg

[ManTrainChooChoo]

Representing the Columbus Crew this year.

I made day 2 at 11th place with
Raelin
Deathreavers x2
Kaemon Awa
Marro Warriors
Major Q9

Pickle4192 placed 9th

4th Mass x4
Braxas


Mattser didn't make day 2.... Clearly there is a conspiracy by the judges to ensure we get a new champion this year.

[rym]

Gotta love me some Fish Tako's!!

I have 3 people in my draft in day 2 so far. :rock:

[Frylock]

$20 says dok's upgrade is Krav+Rats. ;)

And didn't a certain Devil's Advocate predict that vipers would never see day 2? :ponder:

[Devil's Advocate]

My prediction was for last year and that current Meta.

My current prediction is in regards to a list of 10 Figures from which I guaranteed at least 1 unit would be in the Winning Army.

[TurtleKing99]

ET86! Nice Job!

Wisconsin FTW!

[Heroscape Elffy]

Oh, I see. Spider_Poison didn't go to GenCon this year.

[Filthy the Clown]

$20 says dok's upgrade is Krav+Rats. ;)

:

I smell Kelda in some of these hydra builds.

[Frylock]

I'd be willing to bet that if the GW armies have any luck at all tomorrow, they get bumped up to an A- on the power rankings. People wanted results; well, here's some results for you. Three armies in day 2, with 2 of those in the top 4. I'd guess that's enough to merit a bump.

Nilf/GW I expected; but it's interesting to see Zelrig/GW armies too. I wonder if the guy with two dragons always bonded with Nilf, or switched it up for some games.

[Kinseth]

I'd be willing to bet that if the GW armies have any luck at all tomorrow, they get bumped up to an A- on the power rankings. People wanted results; well, here's some results for you. Three armies in day 2, with 2 of those in the top 4. I'd guess that's enough to merit a bump.

Nilf/GW I expected; but it's interesting to see Zelrig/GW armies too. I wonder if the guy with two dragons always bonded with Nilf, or switched it up for some games.

Well alot depends on how many GW armies actually showed up. If it were 15-20 i'd say that isn't impressive to have 3 armires in the top 16. Though if it were more like 6-7, than its impressive.

[Cleon]

I went 5-0 and took the top seed with Ratsx3 , Raelin, Q9, and a Fen Hydra. The five people I played went a combined 18-2 when they weren't playing me.

Day 2 upgrade is to 640. I'm pretty much settled on my upgrade, and I apologize in advance.

Tiny Timmy was #2 (5-0) with Heaviesx4, Marro Warriors, Grimnak, and Nerak.

Jexik (#3) (5-0) is playing Nilfheim and Greenscales - I don't know the exact breakdown.

ET86 (#4) is playing Greenscales, Raelin, and Zelrig.

Chris (#5) is playing ET86's Tree Town army: 10thx4, Marcus, and Airborne Elite.

Matthias (#6) is playing Knights, Gilbert, and airborne elite. He was 4-0 until he ran into my rats in the last round.

dragonmaster384 (#7) was my third game; he played Zelrig, Nilfheim, two squads of greenscales, and the 10 point ninjas.

#9 played Braxas and 4thx4.

I played Fishtako's #10 army first - Raelin, Q9, and Dividersx5. It was one of my closest matches.

Killercactus, #13, MADE DAY 2 WITH VIPERS. And Raelin and Q9, but still. Sick.

Rÿchean (#15), who I played in the fourth round, played 10thx3, Romansx2, Raelin, and Marcus. I believe he and wdgrant were the only 3-2 armies to make it.

wdgrant, my first round opponent, is playing stingersx5, Raelin, and a Hydra. Hot Hydra on Hydra action!

1- Adam Tarr
2-Timothy Womochill
3- James Sitz
4- Eric Lashbrook
5- Chris Meyer
6- Ken Williams
7- Chris Kaelin
8- Brandon Jeeter
9- Mark Pickelsimer
10- Leighton Kan
11- Ben Schaub
12- Richard D'Ambrosio
13- Frank Balog
14- Eric Landry
15- Mark Pruitt
16- William Grant

Quick translation for everyone:
1. Adam Tarr (dok) - Deathreavers x3, Fen Hydra, Major Q9, Raelin RotV
2. Timothy Womochill (Tiny Timmy) - Grimnak, Heavy Gruts x4, Marro Warrors, Nerak
3. James Sitz (Jexik) - Greenscals x4, Nilfheim, Raelin RotV
4. Eric Lashbrooke (EternalThanos86) - Greenscales x4, Raelin RotV, Zelrig
5. Chris Meyer (?) - 10th Reg x4, Airborne Elite, Marcus
6. Ken Williams (Matthias Maccabeus) - Airborne Elite, Knights x4, Sir Gilbert
7. Chris Kaelin - (dragonmaster384) - Greenscales x2, Nilfheim, Zelrig (fillers?)
8. Brandom Jeter (scaper_dude) - Grimnak, Heavy Gruts, Raelin RotV
9. Mark Pickelsimer (Pickle4192) - 4th Mass x4, Braxas
10. Leighton Khan (Fish Tako) - Major Q9, Marro Dividers x5, Raelin RotV
11. Ben Schaub (ManTrainChoochoo) - Deathreavers x2, Kaemon Awa, Major Q9, Marro Warriors, Raelin RotV
12. Richard D'Ambrosio (RoninValentina) - ?
13. Frank Balog (killercactus) - Major Q9, Raelin RotV, Venoc Vipers x6
14. Eric Landry (Menchi) - Alastair, Finn, Knights x3, Krav Maga
15. Mark Pruitt (Rychean) - 10th Reg x2, Roman Legos x3, Marcus, Raelin RotV (I'm pretty sure he's 30 under)
16. William Grant (wdgrant (not sure if that's exact spelling)) - ?

I'm pretty sure places 1 - 3 or 1 - 4 are 5-0, 3/4 - 14 are 4-1, and 15 and 16 are 3-2.

Sorry, not sure what wd or Ronin are playing. Possibly one is 10th Reg.

17. Cody Lucido! (Cleon!) - Marcu Esenwein, Marro Stingers x5, Nilfheim

Yeah, I missed Day 2 by one place. But if someone doesn't show I'm in!!! :p

[Frylock]

I'd be willing to bet that if the GW armies have any luck at all tomorrow, they get bumped up to an A- on the power rankings. People wanted results; well, here's some results for you. Three armies in day 2, with 2 of those in the top 4. I'd guess that's enough to merit a bump.

Nilf/GW I expected; but it's interesting to see Zelrig/GW armies too. I wonder if the guy with two dragons always bonded with Nilf, or switched it up for some games.

Well alot depends on how many GW armies actually showed up. If it were 15-20 i'd say that isn't impressive to have 3 armires in the top 16. Though if it were more like 6-7, than its impressive.
I guess it depends on that a little, but you know those GW armies in the top spots had to face some of the tougher classic builds around. And they came out on (or near) the top. So I say it's still impressive. Can't wait for tomorrow's results, though.

EDIT: Man, getting 17th place must suck! It's like getting fourth place at the Olympics: you know how well you did, but no one else does. Tough break, Cleon.

[Kinseth]

I'd be willing to bet that if the GW armies have any luck at all tomorrow, they get bumped up to an A- on the power rankings. People wanted results; well, here's some results for you. Three armies in day 2, with 2 of those in the top 4. I'd guess that's enough to merit a bump.

Nilf/GW I expected; but it's interesting to see Zelrig/GW armies too. I wonder if the guy with two dragons always bonded with Nilf, or switched it up for some games.

Well alot depends on how many GW armies actually showed up. If it were 15-20 i'd say that isn't impressive to have 3 armires in the top 16. Though if it were more like 6-7, than its impressive.
I guess it depends on that a little, but you know those GW armies in the top spots had to face some of the tougher classic builds around. And they came out on (or near) the top. So I say it's still impressive. Can't wait for tomorrow's results, though.

Well they happened to be piloted by great heroscapers. Sometimes its a case of a A+ player playing a B army into an A+ Result. That happens more often than naught than a B player, playing an A+ army to an A+ result.

[Frylock]

I'd be willing to bet that if the GW armies have any luck at all tomorrow, they get bumped up to an A- on the power rankings. People wanted results; well, here's some results for you. Three armies in day 2, with 2 of those in the top 4. I'd guess that's enough to merit a bump.

Nilf/GW I expected; but it's interesting to see Zelrig/GW armies too. I wonder if the guy with two dragons always bonded with Nilf, or switched it up for some games.

Well alot depends on how many GW armies actually showed up. If it were 15-20 i'd say that isn't impressive to have 3 armires in the top 16. Though if it were more like 6-7, than its impressive.
I guess it depends on that a little, but you know those GW armies in the top spots had to face some of the tougher classic builds around. And they came out on (or near) the top. So I say it's still impressive. Can't wait for tomorrow's results, though.

Well they happened to be piloted by great heroscapers. Sometimes its a case of a A+ player playing a B army into an A+ Result. That happens more often than naught than a B player, playing an A+ army to an A+ result.
I know that's true, and I see your point. But that's how a lot of the top-tier builds work. For example, Glads/Blasts can be tricky to play, but in the right hands, they can win tournaments. Maybe Greenscales are like that; they really shine when in the right hands. Just a thought.

[arp12]

I was in a 4-way tie for 39th place, going 2-3 in the Main Event. I take solace in my close first game against pickle4192.

[nyys]

I forget most of my team but I know I had dok and MTCC.

[Devil's Advocate]

A large part too is getting good matchups in a tournament. Every single build has others that they would love to avoid.

[dok]

1. Adam Tarr (dok) - Deathreavers x3, Fen Hydra, Major Q9, Raelin RotV
2. Timothy Womochill (Tiny Timmy) - Grimnak, Heavy Gruts x4, Marro Warrors, Nerak
3. James Sitz (Jexik) - Greenscals x4, Nilfheim, Raelin RotV
4. Eric Lashbrooke (EternalThanos86) - Greenscales x4, Raelin RotV, Zelrig
5. Chris Meyer (?) - 10th Reg x4, Airborne Elite, Marcus
6. Ken Williams (Matthias Maccabeus) - Airborne Elite, Knights x4, Sir Gilbert
7. Chris Kaelin - (dragonmaster384) - Greenscales x2, Nilfheim, Zelrig (fillers?)
8. Brandom Jeter (scaper_dude) - Grimnak, Heavy Gruts, Raelin RotV
9. Mark Pickelsimer (Pickle4192) - 4th Mass x4, Braxas
10. Leighton Khan (Fish Tako) - Major Q9, Marro Dividers x5, Raelin RotV
11. Ben Schaub (ManTrainChoochoo) - Deathreavers x2, Kaemon Awa, Major Q9, Marro Warriors, Raelin RotV
12. Richard D'Ambrosio (RoninValentina) - ?
13. Frank Balog (killercactus) - Major Q9, Raelin RotV, Venoc Vipers x6
14. Eric Landry (Menchi) - Alastair, Finn, Knights x3, Krav Maga
15. Mark Pruitt (Rÿchean) - 10th Reg x2, Roman Legos x3, Marcus, Raelin RotV (I'm pretty sure he's 30 under)
16. William Grant (wdgrant (not sure if that's exact spelling)) - ?wdgrant is playing Stingersx5, Raelin, Fen Hydra.
17. Cody Lucido! (Cleon!) - Marcu Esenwein, Marro Stingers x5, Nilfheim

Yeah, I missed Day 2 by one place. But if someone doesn't show I'm in!!! :pHey man, I did all I could to bring up your strength of schedule. Unfortunately for you, Rÿchean got the same benefit.

For the curious, lonewolf was playing the lonewolf special (gladsx3, blastsx3, Raelin) and went 3-2. I didn't see anyone else play 'trons.

GSWs are A- at least, yeah. Playing a bonding army that dishes multiple special attacks is powerful.

[Cleon]

Quick translation for everyone: (updated)
1. Adam Tarr (dok) - Deathreavers x3, Fen Hydra, Major Q9, Raelin RotV
2. Timothy Womochill (Tiny Timmy) - Grimnak, Heavy Gruts x4, Marro Warrors, Nerak
3. James Sitz (Jexik) - Greenscals x4, Nilfheim, Raelin RotV
4. Eric Lashbrooke (EternalThanos86) - Greenscales x4, Raelin RotV, Zelrig
5. Chris Meyer (?) - 10th Reg x4, Airborne Elite, Marcus
6. Ken Williams (Matthias Maccabeus) - Airborne Elite, Knights x4, Sir Gilbert
7. Chris Kaelin - (dragonmaster384) - Greenscales x2, Nilfheim, Zelrig (fillers?)
8. Brandom Jeter (scaper_dude) - Grimnak, Heavy Gruts, Raelin RotV
9. Mark Pickelsimer (Pickle4192) - 4th Mass x4, Braxas
10. Leighton Khan (Fish Tako) - Major Q9, Marro Dividers x5, Raelin RotV
11. Ben Schaub (ManTrainChoochoo) - Deathreavers x2, Kaemon Awa, Major Q9, Marro Warriors, Raelin RotV
12. Richard D'Ambrosio (RoninValentina) - ?
13. Frank Balog (killercactus) - Major Q9, Raelin RotV, Venoc Vipers x6
14. Eric Landry (Menchi) - Alastair, Finn, Knights x3, Krav Maga
15. Mark Pruitt (Rÿchean) - 10th Reg x2, Roman Legos x3, Marcus, Raelin RotV (I'm pretty sure he's 30 under)
16. William Grant (wdgrant (not sure if that's exact spelling)) - Fen Hydra, Marro Stingers x5, Raelin RotV

I'm pretty sure places 1 - 3 or 1 - 4 are 5-0, 3/4 - 14 are 4-1, and 15 and 16 are 3-2.

Yeah thanks dok, you and Fish Tako are why I'm as high as I am.

[Devil's Advocate]

For his 1st Matchup, the #16 should counter Draft Omnicrons + Morsbane, Morsbane hitting Q9 would hurt the army a lot, leaving the Hydra and Krav? to do most the killing. Although Krug is also interesting.

[S1R_ART0R1US]

Negating the Hydra would be even bigger IMO-down to 1 adjacent attack per turn whereas Q9 is still a mighty beast.

[Devil's Advocate]

Against Squads his 1 attack per turn won't kill quickly enough, but there are plenty of good targets, Hydra, Q9, Raelin, Krav?

Atlaga + Omnicrons is also insteresting but riskier

[Frylock]

How are second day match-ups determined? Is it 16 vs 1, 15 vs 2, etc? Or am I missing something?

[Hidicul]

Well at least 2 of my fantasy picks got into day 2, Menchi and Rychan.

[arp12]

How are second day match-ups determined? Is it 16 vs 1, 15 vs 2, etc?
Yes.

[Fedex worker]

Well at least 2 of my fantasy picks got into day 2, Menchi and Rychan.


Same here, killercactus and RoninValentina.

[dok]

I have myself, Tiny Timmy, and Scaper_Dude. Several others have two; it's possible others have three.

[EternalThanos86]

wdgrant and I are currently picking our reinforcements. For me, I am looking at a heavy hitter to counter Q9 but also kill the hundreds of vipers that killercactus will be weilding. wdgrant is joking about Deadeye Dan. I told him to go for it just to spite Jexik :shock:

[lafleurhero]

Congratz to all those making it to day 2. Especially Dok. Great job representing Colorado scapers. I realize this also means that I'm the only one in over a year to win a game against you in a tournament setting! Wish I could of joined you this year. I plan to go next year for sure

[Devil's Advocate]

wdgrant and I are currently picking our reinforcements. For me, I am looking at a heavy hitter to counter Q9 but also kill the hundreds of vipers that killercactus will be weilding.

Sounds like the AE. They could be rolling 4 attacks of 4 or could potentially grenade Vipers and annhilate them.

[Worseley]

My last match with wdgrant was pretty fun. It ended with 3v5 stingers where my smaller army held the high ground but failed to defend against their brethren.

Looks like everyone I lost to made it to day 2.

[Dragonmaster384]

Nilf/GW I expected; but it's interesting to see Zelrig/GW armies too. I wonder if the guy with two dragons always bonded with Nilf, or switched it up for some games.
Actually, I bonded with Zelrig in all 5 of my games, and he performed quite well against everyone I faced except Mr. #1 seed there(he took me apart, that game wasn't even close >_>), with his Raelin'd Q9 and Hydra. I used Nilfheim mostly for cleanup, though in 2 games I didn't even need him. In round 5 I played lonewolf with his glads and blasts, and the Greenscales were insanely useful as a screen to keep them off Zelrig while he did his job.

In case there was still any question, I'm #7 on the list playing Zelrig, Nilfheim, 2xGreenscales, and the 2 10-point ninjas.

Kudos to everyone else that made it to day 2, and best of luck to all today! =)

[killercactus]

I just had a spare second to read through this.

Thanks to everyone for the kudos (Fedex, etc - I can't remember anyone now). I will say though that I had VERY favorable matchups on my way to a 4-1. In a field with lots of Q9 and Rats I never faced Q9 and only faced Rats x2 once. As Devil says, matchups are very important. However, adverse to what Devil says, I'd argue that this meta was far worse for Vipers than last year - but it didn't affect me much due tk my matchups. So far.

I've already played and defeated Zelrig + Greenscales twice en route to the top 16 - one of those being Clarissimus. Both games were super close though. Literally down to the wire. I can't wait to write a battle report. I had some of my most exciting games ever in this tournament.

Thanks to everyone that urged me to play Vipers - it's been a blast. I know I'm gonna have a much tougher time in the Top 16, though I think I can conceivably make a deep run with some luck. To get past the semis though (not to look ahead - I'm going to have a heckuva time getting through the first 2 rounds), someone has to beat dok for me. His army looks like it was made to beat mine. But, I'm just happy to make Day 2 whatever happens.

Good luck to ET86! If the rest of my tournament is any indication, we're in for one heck of a ride!

FRENZY!!!!!!!!

[lonewolf]

Congrats to all the day-2 qualifiers! It is great to see the younger generation making it to day-2, There are at least 3-4 under 18 players in the second day this year!

DragonMaster384 made short work of my trons with Zelrig, well played!

My other loss was to my son Scaper_dude. We got the worst news possible when the second round of day 1 matches were posted and we had to play each other. Traveled 1500 miles to play my kid! :(

Now - off to Heroscape Lite for me!!! ;)

[Kinseth]

When do the battles begin? Round by. Round update would be nice

[rym]

I have myself, Tiny Timmy, and Scaper_Dude. Several others have two; it's possible others have three.

I got 3 still. You, Ry, and Fish Tako.

Good luck.

[Grungebob]

Top players battling for 1st place Maintrain vs Dok. Both players have three sets of rats. :roll:

[Fencerjared]

Top players battling for 1st place Maintrain vs Dok. Both players have three sets of rats. :roll:

I hate rats. Because they saw so much use at last year's Dallas NHSD (or at least I faced them often enough for it to seem so), they're making me rethink bringing Vipers again even though I really want to to well with them.

Edit: 11 armies out of 54 with at least 2 reavers; less than I remembered, but not too far out of probability for me to run into the 2 I did.

[S1R_ART0R1US]

Thanks for the update GBob.

[yagyuninja]

Top players battling for 1st place Maintrain vs Dok. Both players have three sets of rats. :roll:
:|

[Devil's Advocate]

Top players battling for 1st place Maintrain vs Dok. Both players have three sets of rats. :roll:

Rats and Raelin are expected, the bigger surprise is that many of the armies did not have a great solution for a Strong Hero backed by Rats and Raelin such as:

-AE
-Disengage Units (Gruts, etc)
-Units that can bypass Engagement to attack (Atlaga, Morsbane, etc)
-Counters (Repulsors)

Some of the units are risky (Atlaga, Morsbane, etc) but if you hit the Unit their army is built around it is almost an auto win if the rest of your army is strong. Even against non soulborgs, Repulsors aren't bad, they are cheap, have 7 range, and ok defense.

[Grungebob]

I also forgot to mention that both armies also have Q9. Both armies have Raelin as well. So no real creativity this year in the top army choices. I am thinking that this is a good indicator that we need some new way to encourage players away from this stagnation in army choices. It will destroy our meager tourney scene.

[Devil's Advocate]

-The easiest way is Side Decks allowed (100 or 200 Points rather than Reinforcements). Soulborgs are not hard to counter but people do not do so a lot in their main armies because it puts them at a disadvantage against other armies.

-It could just be random luck that the 2 finalists have similar armies, there was decent variety among the Top 16.

-It confirms the rankings since those are the 3 A+ units I believe.

[xraine69]

I also forgot to mention that both armies also have Q9. Both armies have Raelin as well. So no real creativity this year in the top army choices. I am thinking that this is a good indicator that we need some new way to encourage players away from this stagnation in army choices. It will destroy our meager tourney scene.
Depending on how the srory unfolds, maybe next year's Main Event could be Good vs Evil??? At least then under the current alliance, no Q9 and rats builds. :shrug:

[Grungebob]

I also forgot to mention that both armies also have Q9. Both armies have Raelin as well. So no real creativity this year in the top army choices. I am thinking that this is a good indicator that we need some new way to encourage players away from this stagnation in army choices. It will destroy our meager tourney scene.
Depending on how the srory unfolds, maybe next year's Main Event could be Good vs Evil??? At least then under the current alliance, no Q9 and rats builds. :shrug:I think we should discuss it. I would like to see how well these guys can do without the Q9/Raelin/Rat stagnant combo.

[Devil's Advocate]

I think we should discuss it. I would like to see how well these guys can do without the Q9/Raelin/Rat stagnant combo.

It's a strong combo but not Stagnant. It is the 1st Gencon Tournament this combo will have won (although last year had Rats + Raelin and a previous year was Raelin + Q9).

The only Stagnant piece is Raelin who has been in the winning army EVERY year. Just get rid of Raelin.

[Frylock]

If you get rid of Raelin, I'd bet you'd see lots of 4th mass armies.

[Grungebob]

Dok wins!!! He is a fantastic player.

I think giving everyone Raelin would be a better option... heheh

[xraine69]

I don't think anyone wants to see banned figures. Maybe just a new tourney format that encourages a more wider build and breaks up the top combos.

[xraine69]

Congratulations Dok!!!

[Grungebob]

I don't think anyone wants to see banned figures. Maybe just a new tourney format that encourages a more wider build and breaks up the top combos.Easier said than done man. I mean anybody can say that a better format would be great, but I would like to here details of what folks think that would look like. If there are combos that need breaking, I would rather break up those combos than ban figures.

[Scapemage]

Dok won! Awesome! Was anything previewed at GenCon?

[Devil's Advocate]

I think only allowing Raelin to be used with Jandar is a good solution, or just only allow SOTM Raelin so that a Raelin still exists.

[Filthy the Clown]

Congrats to Dok and to all of the Top 16! Following this thread has been very exciting, what with the speculation, encouragement, and banter.


As for discouraging certain combinations, I recommend point penalties for using specific combos in builds (for example: if you choose Q9 and Raelin, you lose -50 points on the point total allowed for your army, and so forth; that way, you can still use your favorite combo, but you will have fewer points to add your support units).

[Frylock]

Can we get the final rankings for all the top 16?

[TurtleKing99]

Wow, dok, what's your record now? 39-1? You're just lucky I wasn't there ;)

[S1R_ART0R1US]

I think the GSW are a strong move towards countering them though as they bond with the big boys that can put the hurt on Q9. The Design Team has made inroads (IMO) and I'm confident that they'll continue to do so. I think there very well may always have to be a "best army"-but what that army is may change.

[Frylock]

Wow, dok, what's your record now? 39-1? You're just lucky I wasn't there ;)
I think it's 38-2, as he lost one game in General Wars. His win rate is now down to 95%.

[Grungebob]

Congrats to Dok and to all of the Top 16! Following this thread has been very exciting, what with the speculation, encouragement, and banter.


As for discouraging certain combinations, I recommend point penalties for using specific combos in builds (for example: if you choose Q9 and Raelin, you lose -50 points on the point total allowed for your army, and so forth; that way, you can still use your favorite combo, but you will have fewer points to add your support units).It has been exciting. Dok was piled high with so many prizes it was cracking me up. He's so skinny I'm afraid he might break a bone or something! Really though the sportsmanship in these guys has been great this year and the banter has been funny too.

[ElvenEnvy]

I wonder if anybody knows this off hand or if I'll have to dig for it...

How many times has the Number 1 Seed from Day 1 gone on to win Day 2?

[A_Train]

Congrats dok!

[Grungebob]

BTW, Dok is planning on playing Firestorm in the all hero tourney tomorrow. So if any players are going to play in that, you will need your Lava resistant Heroes.

[Frylock]

So he got D2 as a prize? Cool! The firestorm should thrive in the all hero environment. Can't wait to see the results.

[Boondocksaint]

Congrats Dok! Looked like a fun event.

Commenting on the builds, I would hate to see banned units but see how changing tournment structures to discurage them would be difficult. I am not sure what should be done to diversify the tournment scene. Though it was cool to see the hydra in there!

Also, what the heck happend to the PK's! None in the top 16. Maybe because of all the 10th and Q.9?

[Grungebob]

So he got D2 as a prize? Cool! The firestorm should thrive in the all hero environment. Can't wait to see the results.Oh I think I know what the results will be.

[ElvenEnvy]

BTW, Dok is planning on playing Firestorm in the all hero tourney tomorrow. So if any players are going to play in that, you will need your Lava resistant Heroes.

The Gen Champ should throw his weight around and play units nobody has played before. Go Dok!


How much Wave D2 did he get if he can play firestorm?

[S1R_ART0R1US]

He only needs the hero pack for Kurrock. I think General Wars is a great format because Rats/Raelin and Q9 are all different generals.

[nate the dawg]

BTW, Dok is planning on playing Firestorm in the all hero tourney tomorrow. So if any players are going to play in that, you will need your Lava resistant Heroes.

The Gen Champ should throw his weight around and play units nobody has played before. Go Dok!


How much Wave D2 did he get if he can play firestorm?
He only needs one figure from D2 to go firestormin'. All the fire elementals he could want came out months ago in D1.

[Grungebob]

Congrats Dok! Looked like a fun event.

Commenting on the builds, I would hate to see banned units but see how changing tournment structures to discurage them would be difficult. I am not sure what should be done to diversify the tournment scene. Though it was cool to see the hydra in there!

Also, what the heck happend to the PK's! None in the top 16. Maybe because of all the 10th and Q.9?There will be no banning. We designed these units to be played. But slightly breaking the most devastating combos that stack the odds in favor of the player using them.. I was just talking to Dok and he said plainly that the game is won before it is played largely due to build choice. This is not what we want. What we want is healthy competition that is determined by good play. If a good player such as Dok is coupled with a power build, he will win. We don't want that kind of certainty or there is no point in attending.

Dok + Raelin/Q9/Rats is like having the worlds top chess champion showing up to a chess tourney with 3 queens.

[ElvenEnvy]

BTW, Dok is planning on playing Firestorm in the all hero tourney tomorrow. So if any players are going to play in that, you will need your Lava resistant Heroes.

The Gen Champ should throw his weight around and play units nobody has played before. Go Dok!


How much Wave D2 did he get if he can play firestorm?
He only needs one figure from D2 to go firestormin'. All the fire elementals he could want came out months ago in D1.

Wow :oops: I forgot the Elementals were in the last Wave, I haven't taken mine out of the package in wait for Kurrock. For me they kind of are D2.

But still that would require alot of confidence to bring/barrow all those FE and say hey I might win Main Event and get myself a Kurrock.

[Devil's Advocate]

TKN could potentially rock Firestorm

[Grungebob]

BTW, Dok is planning on playing Firestorm in the all hero tourney tomorrow. So if any players are going to play in that, you will need your Lava resistant Heroes.

The Gen Champ should throw his weight around and play units nobody has played before. Go Dok!


How much Wave D2 did he get if he can play firestorm?
He only needs one figure from D2 to go firestormin'. All the fire elementals he could want came out months ago in D1.

Wow :oops: I forgot the Elementals were in the last Wave, I haven't taken mine out of the package in wait for Kurrock. For me they kind of are D2.

But still that would require alot of confidence to bring/barrow all those FE and say hey I might win Main Event and get myself a Kurrock.The top 8 got Wave D2

[dok]

Thanks for the congratulatons, folks.

Although maintrain and I had 31 rats between us in the final game (16 for me, 15 for him), we were the only day 2 builds with rats. Given the variety we saw, I think it's premature to talk about banning. If you take Raelin out of the picture, the 4th are suddenly unbeatable. If you take the rats out of the picture, the knights are unbeatable. Heck, even my build isn't favored against Heavy Gruts, Grimnak, Nerak, and Raelin.

Incomplete final rankings:

1) dok (+rats+krav)
2) Mantrainchoochoo (+ratsx2+arkmer)
3) Ronin (Knightsx3+Finn+Krav+Fen Hydra day 1, +Gilbert+Marcu day 2)
4) Fishtako (+Fen Hydra + Marcu)
T-5) pickle (+4th+Raelin)
T-5) Tiny Timmy
T-5) Menchi
T-5) EternalThanos
T-9) wdgrant (+kaemon+marcu)
T-9) everyone else

[Grungebob]

If you take Raelin out of the picture, the 4th are suddenly unbeatable. If you take the rats out of the picture, the knights are unbeatable.
This is exactly why you do not want to ban figures like Raelin. You don't want to ban rats either. What you do is limit how many A+ units you can have in your army. You make this list of units that create problems when paired up with each other and then limit the combos not the individual units if that makes sense.

[Devil's Advocate]

Thanks for the congratulatons, folks.

Although maintrain and I had 31 rats between us in the final game (16 for me, 15 for him), we were the only day 2 builds with rats. Given the variety we saw, I think it's premature to talk about banning. If you take Raelin out of the picture, the 4th are suddenly unbeatable. If you take the rats out of the picture, the knights are unbeatable. Heck, even my build isn't favored against Heavy Gruts, Grimnak, Nerak, and Raelin.


You are exaggerating some. The 4th are very beatable even without Raelin allowed. Zelrig himself can crush a 4th Mass army, Q9 with 7 Defense can, AE can bomb them in start zone, Knights and Heavies can on many Maps, etc.

I'm curious how Many Heavy Grut armies Dok played against, my suspicion is
0-1 with 0 being more likely.

Knights also can be beaten pretty easily without Rats: 4th, 10th, Heavies, etc

[Grim]

Congrats to dok for winning!

Congrats to RoninValentina, FishTako, and Menchi for representing Northern CA so well! 3rd, 4th, and tied-for-5th!

I don't think anyone wants to see banned figures.
Oh, there's at least one sideline kibitzer - who doesn't matter - who wants that. Since long ago I've suggested "ban Raelin and Rats for a year or two". Call it a cooling off period. Then re-evaluate.

Perhaps add Q9 and 4th Mass as well. Don't go any further than that though.

Raelin will continue to be used by winners unless she is banned. As many others have said, many times, she is by far the most undercosted figure ever.

She (and rats) also slow games down, way down. Ban em! :)

[Devil's Advocate]

Raelin will continue to be used by winners unless she is banned. As many others have said, many times, she is by far the most undercosted figure ever.



100% agree. 1 Piece being in EVERY winning army is pretty great proof about her being unbalanced.

Maybe make ROTV Raelin 150 or 160. If someone REALLY wants her then let them think about spending a decent portion of their army on her.

[rym]

Banning isn't the answer. I think by its vey nature that banning units would indicate some clear signs of power creep. I do not find that to be the case. Repulsors are able enough to handle rats and Q9, but the uber-competitive metagame doesn't favor them in other less-than-desirable matchups.

I think Grungebob is right in that we need to think outside the box and find a solution that fits everyone (or most everyone).

Just a thought, but what about simpy stating that you can't bring the same units on the following year? :shrug:

Players like dok, Jexik, ManTrain, MM, Rychean and the Fish Tako can test their player skill and mettle by bringing a completely new army the next year, and see what they can do without the A+'ers. A lesser skilled player will still have problems against a higher skilled player, even if that higher-level player is using lesser-known units because they understand the metagame so well. In the hands of lower-skilled players, an A+ army may or may not do as well, but it seems like putting restrictions on your own individual army builds could level the playing field a bit.

Of course, the flip side is you start making a fantastically wonderful game more complicated and it would probably feel more like work and less like play.

I don't know. It was just a thought due to GB's observations.

[Dignan]

Congrats, dok.

That's funny, before Rychean left for GenCon we were discussing armies. I said, "It's pretty simple, if you want to win bring 3xRats, Q9, Raelin, and Krav." And then dok wins the event with those exact units (plus the hydra).

From a tactical standpoint, that build simply gives you the best odds of winning against the largest number of armies on the largest variety of maps. There are certain armies on certain maps that will be a good counter, but the percentage of those is lower than any other army.

At the top level, most of the guys all know the correct move to make. Sure, some people might make slightly stronger moves than another, but the difference in that small margin plays a much smaller part in determining the victor than army matchup, map, and dice.

The only way (I can think of) to reward skill and knowledge of the game more is to make the championship a draft format (the game is designed with drafting after all). Knowing that Rats, Q9, Raelin, Krav make a strong army is something everyone on this site knows. Drafting the proper units from a changing pool of units for a variety of maps adds an additional layer of player skill to the equation.

[Killer Lawnmower]

Congrats, dok!!!
If you buckle under the weight of your prizes, I can help you carry them via telepathy.;)

[Grungebob]

Thank you Dignan.

[ElvenEnvy]

Perhaps another way to do this would be like the Unit Battle Royal, not allow units that won last year to participate this year. However that may get too restrictive, so we could say you may use any one of the units but no more than that. It would allow the combinations to be broken, but individual units would remain accessible to be used with other units. That's the most reasonable thing I can think of.

[Grungebob]

Perhaps another way to do this would be like the Unit Battle Royal, not allow units that won last year to participate this year. However that may get too restrictive, so we could say you may use any one of the units but no more than that. It would allow the combinations to be broken, but individual units would remain accessible to be used with other units. That's the most reasonable thing I can think of.Yes of course this is what I proposed earlier and is something that Dignan has done in Dallas tourneys as far as I know.

[Devil's Advocate]

I think its better to just raise the cost. If someone wants to pay 150 for Raelin let them.

[Dignan]

Yes of course this is what I proposed earlier and is something that Dignan has done in Dallas tourneys as far as I know.

Yeah, the restricted tournament I ran this year had a refreshing combination of armies. No single unit was banned, there was just a simple rule added to spice up army creation. I think it worked out well.

[Fencerjared]

Yes of course this is what I proposed earlier and is something that Dignan has done in Dallas tourneys as far as I know.

Yeah, the restricted tournament I ran this year had a refreshing combination of armies. No single unit was banned, there was just a simple rule added to spice up army creation. I think it worked out well.

I really enjoyed that format, I hope it will make a return in the normal rotation of tournaments.


Not least of all because I won.:p

[ElvenEnvy]

Perhaps another way to do this would be like the Unit Battle Royal, not allow units that won last year to participate this year. However that may get too restrictive, so we could say you may use any one of the units but no more than that. It would allow the combinations to be broken, but individual units would remain accessible to be used with other units. That's the most reasonable thing I can think of.Yes of course this is what I proposed earlier and is something that Dignan has done in Dallas tourneys as far as I know.

Does it work for them well in Dallas?

I like the idea of having a pool and drafting, but that would probably make time an issue. Plus a lot of people like to have their army picked out and be able to practice it for quite a while in advance. When you play from pools your army will change and drilling it isn't as easy. That may turn out to be a good thing though.

Ideally the best thing would be for WotC and those of you who work with them to make more units to round out the game or knock those units down a knotch. You probably have some thoughts to what kinds of things you could add so I won't bother listing any.

[dok]

Congrats, dok.

That's funny, before Rÿchean left for GenCon we were discussing armies. I said, "It's pretty simple, if you want to win bring 3xRats, Q9, Raelin, and Krav." And then dok wins the event with those exact units (plus the hydra).Yeah, Rÿchean was pretty frustrated when I was playing him in the fourth round yesterday, and he said that that's what you had said.

I actually think the Hydra is better in that army than the Krav. The Krav just reinforces the matchups that are already good with Raelin, rats, and Q9. The Hydra flips your bad matchups (TKN+grubs, Nilf/Brax/Zelrig + Greenscales, Orcs) more in your favor.

The Krav was my add simply because it made the most sense at that point total. My most likely upgrades were Krav @600, Krav+Marcu or AE+Isamu @620, and Krav+rats @640.

[Devil's Advocate]

Why were people frustrated playing your army? The expectation playing in Gencon would be to face tons of Rats, Raelins, and Q9's.

[dok]

Why were people frustrated playing your army? The expectation playing in Gencon would be to face tons of Rats, Raelins, and Q9's.He was frustrated because I got the defense glyph and killed his Redcoats, and he knew he was toast even though he had a lot of his army left. It was a lockdown win.

It wasn't "I can't believe you're playing that" frustration; it was "I'm getting killed here and I want to make day 2" frustration.

[Scapemage]

Every army has its weaknesses, and, planning on going to GenCon next year, I have mixed feelings about units being banned. I would like to see the ever-so-annoying Q9 and Rats banned, but then I couldn't use them either. I agree with :gb:, every unit was made to be played.

[Rich10]

Congratulations dok! I thought that you'd win.

I think that I stand a good chance in the Gencon fantasy contest as I had doc (1), Mantrainchoochoo (2), and Pickle (5).

[Dignan]

Does it work for them well in Dallas?

I like the idea of having a pool and drafting, but that would probably make time an issue.

We've run three draft events and Dallas and time hasn't been a factor. On many occasions, the person who is the better drafter essentially wins the game on the draft. The match ends up being very short. Also, we play at lower point totals and that keeps the drafting and matches shorter.

[dok]

Wow, dok, what's your record now? 39-1? You're just lucky I wasn't there ;)My total tournament record is 43-2. I've lost once in Colorado (30-1), and I lost a game in general wars (ManOWar beat my TKN, grubsx3, PKx3 with Denrick and 23 Minutemen). I was 4-1 in general wars and 9-0 in the championship.

Really though the sportsmanship in these guys has been great this year and the banter has been funny too.QFT. My opponents were incredibly gracious and fun to play against. Mantrain was incredible in the finals - I swear that guy can see through my order markers.

I wonder if anybody knows this off hand or if I'll have to dig for it...

How many times has the Number 1 Seed from Day 1 gone on to win Day 2?I don't know, but I doubt it's more than once. Even if you go 5-0, you don't have that much control over whether you are the #1 or #2 or #3. It's just strength of schedule.

[Kinseth]

What were the last 3-4 gencon winning armies? I'm pretty sure last years had braxas just to deal with raelin.

[Kinseth]

Last year were rats, marro warriors, braxas, ae.

Year before was glads, blasts raelin.

[Devil's Advocate]

I'm pretty sure Glads/Blasts have never won

[Kinseth]

I'm pretty sure Glads/Blasts have never won
Spider_Poison won in 2008 with Glads/Blasts/Raelin

[ROADRAGE]

Glads/blasts and Raelin with Spider poison playing them won the whole thing in 2008.

[Fedex worker]

My opponents were incredibly gracious and fun to play against. Mantrain was incredible in the finals - I swear that guy can see through my order markers.

He has Mattser in the background holding up a little mirror so he can see them;).

[Fedex worker]

Double post.

[S1R_ART0R1US]

Congrats to dok for winning!

Congrats to Ronin for 3rd place and for representing Northern CA so well! And doing it with a cool

Menchi and FishTako are also from NorCal and came in 5th and 4th respectively. Ronin modified Menchi's build from last year by replacing Alastair with the Hydra. I'm not a fan of drafting because there are soooo many units in HS and there's no way you could bring them all to a tourney.

Again, I'm a fan of general wars as it breaks up the rats/raelin/q9 combo

[Kinseth]

I don't really think there is a problem, there will always be Tier 1 Armies, and the top players should do well with them.

Last years Top 16 looked alot different than this years Top 16. There wasn't one Q9/Rats/Ray-Ray Army in the bunch. And I believe it was only one in this years top 16. Not to mention a good influx of new units this year that included Fen Hydra and Greenscale Warriors. Proving that the format is healthy and flourishing. I think it has to do more with match-ups and meta game and how good of a player someone like Dok is.

I see no reason to raise anyones points, you have to be prepared to beat the top tier armies when entering the Gencon Championship. And if you don't, hope you get a favorable matchup :)

Championship '09, Day 1
1. Hendal 5-0 (7x Stingers, Raelin)
2. ManTrain 5-0 (4x Heavy Gruts, Raelin Grimnak)
3. RocDoc 4-1 (Cyprien, 5x Stingers, Marro Warriors)
4. Dillerbocker 4-1 (2x Knights, 2x 4th Mass, Gilbert, Eldgrim)
5. gamjuven 4-1 (3x Glads, 2x Blasts, Laglor, Marcu)
6. Clarissimus 4-1 (4x Mass, Braxas)
7. Matthias Maccabeus 4-1 (4x Heavies, Chompy, Raelin, Marcu)
8. David K. 4-1 (Marcus, 3x Romans, 2x 10th Foot, Ne-Gok-Sa, Isamu)
9. Rÿchean 4-1 (2x Deathreavers, 5x Stingers, Kaemon Awa)
10. spider_poison 4-1 (3x Glads, 2x Blasts, Raelin, Isamu)
11. MattserTruckRally 4-1 (3x Deathreavers, Braxas, Airborne Elite, Marro Warriors)
12. Cornpuff 4-1 (Atlaga, 2x Minions, Krav, Raelin)
13. madpuppet 4-1 (Braxas, 2x Rats, 2x Stingers, Raelin)
14. Menchi 4-1 (Krav, Finn, Alistair, 3x Knights)
15. nwojedi 4-1 (3x 10th, Airborne Elite, Kaemon Awa, Deathreavers)
16. Worldturtle 4-1 (Krav, Raelin, Kaemon, 4x Dividers)

[Devil's Advocate]

I think that Q9 + Rats + Raelin has always been the easiest/best core but many do not play it just to avoid the stigma of using it.

I would suspect that if someone truly had to win that they would go for this as opposed to the other upper tier armies. It does have some harder matchups (Heavy Gruts) but has probably the most good matchups.

[Dignan]

I'm not a fan of drafting because there are soooo many units in HS and there's no way you could bring them all to a tourney.


You should try a drafting tournament. They are actually quite a bit of fun and very unique. You don't need to bring every unit in Heroscape to the event to implement drafting. The format we use in Texas has worked great and resulted in a very popular event.

[Grim]

Congrats to dok for winning!

Congrats to Ronin for 3rd place and for representing Northern CA so well! And doing it with a cool

Menchi and FishTako are also from NorCal and came in 5th and 4th respectively.
Awesome!

[ElvenEnvy]

I'm not a fan of drafting because there are soooo many units in HS and there's no way you could bring them all to a tourney.


You should try a drafting tournament. They are actually quite a bit of fun and very unique. You don't need to bring every unit in Heroscape to the event to implement drafting. The format we use in Texas has worked great and resulted in a very popular event.

Care to explain or link to any examples. I'm looking to host a tournament sometime outside of the vanilla and I'm thinking something draft, sidebar, or reinforcement styled.

[Aldin]

I find myself wondering if anyone played the army with which I won the last OVAH tournament because it seems like it might do well against Raelin/Q9/Rats:

Mogrimm/MDG/AE/2xRomans/2xRepulsors

~Aldin, curiously

[Cleon]

For an official cap-up:

Ok final list:

1. Adam Tarr (dok) - Deathreavers x3, Fen Hydra, Major Q9, Raelin RotV
2. Timothy Womochill (Tiny Timmy) - Grimnak, Heavy Gruts x4, Marro Warrors, Nerak the Glacian Swog Rider
3. James Sitz (Jexik) - Greenscale Warriors x4, Nilfheim, Raelin the Kyrie Warrior RotV
4. Eric Lashbrooke (EternalThanos86) - Greenscale Warriors x4, Raelin the Kyrie Warrior RotV, Zelrig
5. Chris Meyer (None) - 10th Reg x4, Airborne Elite, Marcus Decimus Gallus
6. Ken Williams (Matthias Maccabeus) - Airborne Elite, Knights of Weston x4, Sir Gilbert
7. Chris Kaelin - (dragonmaster384) - Greenscale Warriors x2, Nilfheim, Zelrig (fillers?)
8. Brandom Jeter (scaper_dude) - Grimnak, Heavy Gruts x4, Raelin the Kyrie Warrior RotV
9. Mark Pickelsimer (Pickle4192) - 4th Massachusetts Line x4, Braxas
10. Leighton Khan (Fish Tako) - Major Q9, Marro Dividers x5, Raelin the Kyrie Warrior RotV
11. Ben Schaub (ManTrainChoochoo) - Deathreavers x2, Kaemon Awa, Major Q9, Marro Warriors, Raelin the Kyrie Warrior RotV
12. Richard D'Ambrosio (RoninValentina) - Fen Hydra, Finn the Viking Champion, Knights of Weston x3, Krav Maga Agents
13. Frank Balog (killercactus) - Major Q9, Raelin the Kyrie Warrior RotV, Venoc Vipers x6
14. Eric Landry (Menchi) - Alastair MacDirk, Finn the Viking Champioin, Knights of Weston x3, Krav Maga Agents
15. Mark Pruitt (Rÿchean) - 10th Regiment of Foot x3, Roman Legos x2, Marcus, Raelin RotV
16. William Grant (wdgrant) - Fen Hydra, Marro Stingers x5, Raelin the Kyrie Warrior RotV

Day 2 Reinforcements: (a symbol was rolled)

1. dok - Deathreavers, Krav Maga Agents
2. Tiny Timmy - Othkurik
3. Jexik - Isamu, Marcu Esenwein, Warriors of Ashra x2
4. EternalThanos86 - Fen Hydra, Isamu
5. Chris Meyer - Memory's weak, uh I think he had Raelin the Kyrie Warrior RotV (then maybe Marro Warriors)
6. Matthias Maccabeus - Theracus, Sir Hawthorne
7. dragonmaster384 - Isamu, Marcu Esenwein, Morsbane, Otonashi (again, not positive on day 1/2 fillers but this = 140)
8. scaper_dude - Krav Maga Agents, Nerak the Glacian Swog Rider
9. Pickle4192 - 4th Massachusetts Line, Raelin the Kyrie Warrior RotV
10. Fish Tako - Fen Hydra, Isamu
11. ManTrainChooChoo - Arkmer, Deathreavers x2,
12. RoninValentina - Marcu Esenwein, Sir Gilbert
13. killercactus - Isamu, Venoc Warlord
14. Menchi - Airborne Elite, either Eldgrim the Viking Champion or Isamu and Marcu Esenwein
15. Rychean - Isamu, Mogrimm Forgehammer
16. wdgrant - Kaemon Awa, Marcu Esenwein?

Well I'm really not sure about some of the fillers on day 1 and/or on day 2. I'm just trying to remember the day 2 armies I filmed.

And here ya go; not sure if this has been posted or it in its entirety:

(scaper vs. scaper on map - winnner)

Top 16:
1. dok vs. wdgrant on Fossil - dok
2. Matthias Maccabeus vs. ManTrainChooChoo on Invasion - ManTrainChooChoo (so close!)
3. EternalThanos86 vs. killercactus on Jotun's Gap - EternalThanos86
4. Rychean vs. Tiny Timmy on Fissure - Tiny Timmy
5. Jexik vs. Menchi on Fissure - Menchi
6. Ronin Valentina vs. Chris Meyer on Warden - Ronin Valentina
7. Fish Tako vs. dragonmaster384 on Fulcrum- Fish Tako
8. scaper_dude vs. Pickle4192 on Jotun's Gap- Pickle4192

Top 8:
1. dok vs. Pickle4192 on Fissure - dok
2. Fish Tako vs. Tiny Timmy on Rift Valley? (really cannot remember) - Fish Tako
3. RoninValentina vs. EternalThanos86 on Just Passing Through - RoninValentina
4. Menchi vs. ManTrainChooChoo on Rift Valley - ManTrainChooChoo

Top 4:
1. ManTrainChooChoo vs. Fish Tako on Midnight Lagoon - ManTrainChooChoo
2. RoninValentina vs. dok on Fossil - dok

Championship:
1. dok vs. ManTrainChooChoo on Warden - dok

Consellation Match:
1. RoninValentina vs. Fish Tako on Elswin Plateau - RoninValentina

Standings:
1. dok
2. ManTrainChooChoo
3. RoninValentina
4. Fish Tako
5. EternalThanos86
5. Tiny Timmy
5. Menchi
5. Pickle4192
9. Matthias Maccabeus
9. Jexik
9. scaper_dude
9. Rychean
9. killercactus
9. wdgrant
9. dragonmaster384
9. Chris Meyer

Pleasure reporting and glad I remembered almost all of it.

[dok]

I don't really think there is a problem, there will always be Tier 1 Armies, and the top players should do well with them.

Last years Top 16 looked alot different than this years Top 16. There wasn't one Q9/Rats/Ray-Ray Army in the bunch. And I believe it was only one in this years top 16.Actually, Mantrain, my finals opponent, had a very similar army to me: he had ratsx4, Raelin, and Q9. The difference was that he also had Kaemon Awa, Marro Warriors, and Arkmer (dropping a rat), while I had Fen Hydra and the Krav. Mantrain's add on day 2 was ratsx2 and Arkmer, while mine was ratsx1 and Krav.

Here's the point: lots of people played rats and Q9, or rats and Raelin, or Raelin and Q9. I know at least a couple other builds played all three. Despite this, the top 16 only had 3 armies with Q9, and 2 armies with rats. There were more knight armies than anything else, actually - three of them.

I realize I made a pure cheese army - I nicknamed it "cheeseheads" after all. I'm not going to deny that I played it because it was the absolute best build I could come up with. But I was close to losing plenty of times, against a wide variety of builds. I don't think we're at a degenerate point yet with competitive Heroscape, the way HoB was last year with WoA. (BTW, congrats to lonewolf for the HoB win - that's two wins at the 'con this year. The dude can play.)

[Fencerjared]

Care to explain or link to any examples. I'm looking to host a tournament sometime outside of the vanilla and I'm thinking something draft, sidebar, or reinforcement styled.

Texas Draft III (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=30067&highlight=texas)

[dok]

12. Richard D'Ambrosio (RoninValentina) - Finn the Viking Champion, Knights of Weston x3, Krav Maga Agents, Sir Gilbert

12. RoninValentina - Fen Hydra, Marcu EsenweinActually, Ronin played the Hydra on Day 1, and added Gilbert on day 2.

[Kinseth]

It was a close army, true, but they were not mirrors. I personally don't like to play Rats in any of my armies. Never have. I think is just has to do with my playstyle. That being said, I see no harm with dok playing rats/Q9/Raelin or anyone for that matter. Its not an auto-pilot win type of army.

my main point is, there was a good variety in the top 16, and that I don't see any reason to change/restrict any units. The A+ units are expected to show up in the A+ main event. Im sure if we played this thing out 10 times, we'd have 6-7 different winners. As dok mentioned, he was close to losing on several occasions.

[Heroscape Elffy]

I have met 4 of the top 6, and beaten one of them twice! I feel special. :p

[Ace Histoli]

Congrats, dok!

Can't wait to read battle reports from today.
Regardless of the concerns re: the state of the metagame, there's at least one area of cool new interest: optimal play with/against the Fen Hydra. I look forward to reading your thoughts on it, dok -- your ideas and analysis (already coherent and convincing) now also carry the biggest and baddest level of street cred.


I'm also wicked psyched to hear about figures like Mogrimm, Venocs, Morsbane, Othkurik, and WoA did on Day 2. Oooh, and glorious stories of the exploits they (well, some of them) performed the day before. :shock::D

[Fedex worker]

Good job dok!

How did KC do?

[ElvenEnvy]

Good job dok!

How did KC do?

He was one of the guys I was most curious about too. Vipers making Day 2, that's something!

[Kinseth]

I am most dissapointed that D2 wasn't released in time for Gencon. I think D2 is an excellent wave, and could have made a huge impact on the Gencon Scene.

[arp12]

He lost to Greenscales/Zelrig in his first game vs EternalThanos.

[Cleon]

I am most dissapointed that D2 wasn't released in time for Gencon. I think D2 is an excellent wave, and could have made a huge impact on the Gencon Scene.

D2 was available for some of the winners (all events after the championship Day 1 I believe, or just some) and the top 8 of Day 2. Pickle brought Firestorm to Heat of Battle, I think he did ok, didn't dominate.

[Kinseth]

I am most dissapointed that D2 wasn't released in time for Gencon. I think D2 is an excellent wave, and could have made a huge impact on the Gencon Scene.

D2 was available for some of the winners (all events after the championship Day 1 I believe, or just some) and the top 8 of Day 2. Pickle brought Firestorm to Heat of Battle, I think he did ok, didn't dominate.

That's cool... but I was being more specific to the masses :)

I think im going to find a way to get out to Gencon next year. Being stuck on the pc waiting for news updates is just too painful.

I am talking to the Sweeney Clan(Tim and his Kids) about making a trip out next year.

LOOKOUT!

[arp12]

Here's my :2cents: on the whole metagame issue.

I don't think it's a big issue. As many others have already pointed out, the units employed this year varied drastically for the top 16. Seriously, the 4th place army (played by FishTako) featured 6 sets of Dividers. Additionally, now that Q9/Raelin/Deathreavers is known to be the dominant army, it could easily suffer next year. People will know to counter this combo with Heavies or Greenscales or whatever else we may discover. Likewise, that effect is precisely what launched the Q9 army to the top this year: Q9 wasn't played by any of the top 16 last year, so in general the competition was less prepared for him. Clarissimus told me that he hadn't playtested against Q9 for that reason.

I like the current format, and I request that it is not changed drastically. The nature of this game is that dominant armies rotate over time and new releases. Let's maintain the Gencon Championship as the true proving ground for tournament Heroscape.

[Devil's Advocate]

He forgot that the 1st rule in designing any Tournament army is to ask if it can beat Q9.

[dok]

He forgot that the 1st rule in designing any Tournament army is to ask if it can beat Q9.Mattser forgot that rule all the way to the title last year.

[Devil's Advocate]

He forgot that the 1st rule in designing any Tournament army is to ask if it can beat Q9.Mattser forgot that rule all the way to the title last year.

The original rule from a few years ago was:

Can it beat Q9, the modern addition is can it beat Rats and/or Q9

Here's the Link: http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=11525&highlight=competitive

[Kinseth]

He forgot that the 1st rule in designing any Tournament army is to ask if it can beat Q9.Mattser forgot that rule all the way to the title last year.

Favorable Matchup? Though AE with Range of 8 isn't a bad counter to Q9.

[Devil's Advocate]

Favorable Matchup? Though AE with Range of 8 isn't a bad counter to Q9.

He did amazingly go 9 straight matches without ever facing Q9. True a rule can be ignored if one happens to somehow go 9 straight without ever facing the Robot, I just think that is pretty atypical. (although as stated Rats + AE are not a terrible counter)

[lafleurhero]

Wow, dok, what's your record now? 39-1? You're just lucky I wasn't there ;)

sounds about right in tournament play for dok. Hmm, who was the 1 he lost to again? :roll:

[Devil's Advocate]

He also lost in General Wars

[lafleurhero]

He also lost in General Wars

That was after the Championship though right? Up to that point he only had 1 loss in tournament play.

[Devil's Advocate]

General Wars were on Friday

[quozl]

Did you get to play against CVN?

[Grim]

It does look like a lot of different army types made it to Day 2, and that's very cool. It's too bad D2 wasn't available, I think the Warforged could've been a contender.

[lafleurhero]

All this talk about Raelin and only A+ units. I don't think the answer is in banning them or changing formats. If they really aren't right then there should just be a card errata for them. I don't think that is hurting anything, just fixing a mistake that was made on the cards early. Make Raelin1 = 100 points or something, change disengage so that only other rats can move and before the killed one is removed and/or increase the cost to 50. Q9 really isn't broken IMO but maybe just increase his cost to 190. Again I think they should be official changes with new downloadable correct cards. Then again this isn't really the place to talk about that.

[killercactus]

Again, I'm a few pages behind.

Fedex, I lost to ET86 in my first game. It was a very close game that could've went either way. It basically came down to his Hydra vs. Mittens and Q9 with 2 wounds. His hydra had one wound from a sneaky viper earlier. I used Mitten to engage the hydra, but he disengaged and I missed the swipe. I had quite a few attacks on him and couldn't wound it. I think I misplayed Q9 a bit late and it cost me. He played great though and it was a an awesome game.

In other NE Ohio news, Brownsfan won Marvel and Dragon Wars and I took 4th in Heat of Battle with 4th Mass. I lost to lonewolf who won the tourney. The dice really hated me that game except when I killed Grimnak in one OM.

[S1R_ART0R1US]

I'm not a fan of drafting because there are soooo many units in HS and there's no way you could bring them all to a tourney.


You should try a drafting tournament. They are actually quite a bit of fun and very unique. You don't need to bring every unit in Heroscape to the event to implement drafting. The format we use in Texas has worked great and resulted in a very popular event.

I've been in two, one in 2008 (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=483612#post483612) and one last weekend (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=31583). Maybe it was the format we used (16 units, no more than 4 A units), but I sadly found that both times squads (especially good ones) were not used that much. Also, I was not a fan of my opponent drafting my units-if they wanted to play they should have brought them. While I like the draft in a more casual setting, I feel it's lacking as a competitive format.

[dok]

Did you get to play against CVN?No I was horribly cheated out of that chance. Apparently he's babysitting some executives all weekend.

I also lost today; I went 3-1 in Heroes only with Raelin, Kurrok, and 10 fire elementals. I lost to Matthias's Krug, Jotun, Shurrak, Marcu, and Drow Chainfighter. I got Jotun, but the lava immune Shurrak just disengaged and took out Kurrok. My total record at the Con was 16-2, for a 46-3 overall record.

Heroes only finals is Matthias against Arcus's Zetacron, Q9, Fen Hydrax2, Marcu, Isamu, and Matthias will be winning in seconds (ETA: he won). In Monster Mash, Cleon (Q9/Zeta/Nilfheim/ratsx3) is on his way to beating lonewolf (Gladsx3,Blastsx2,DW9k,Dumutefx2). (ETA: Cleon won.)

For the record, lonewolf in 3 finals and winning 2 is more impressive than me winning the championship. It's like winning WSOP player of the year, as opposed to winning the main event.

[MattserTruckRally]

Congrats dok on the ME win this year!

I was of course pulling for ManTrain to win the whole thing being that he is my younger brother and everything, he said you played a great game and know your stuff. Seeing all the Scapers at the Con this year was great and I'm hoping to see and play against a bunch of you again next year.

[GaryLASQ]

Congrats dok on the big big win, and to lonewolf on a couple of big wins!

Nice to see EternalThanos86 and Jexik (fellow Chicagoland players) get as far as they did in the Championship tourney.

[Jexik]

Thanks Gary. I promise not to play Greenscales + Nilfheim at your next gameday. :D

One thing I found particularly interesting this year was how far some of the top 16 traveled to make it.*

scaper_dude from AZ/Maine?
RV, Menchi, and Fish Tako from NorCal.
Tiny Timmy, Chris M., and Matthias from Nebraska
Dok from Colorado.
Rychean from Texas

It's hard to say that it's just a regional tourney anymore.

[arp12]

I think scaper_dude came from AZ.

[RoninValentina]

Nor-Cal did come to play, folks. And I think we did a pretty good job making a name for ourselves. We don't have a huge tournament scene like there is in Dallas/Ft. Worth or in the mid-west, but despite that we showed we can play hard.

In fact, probably my favorite detail about this year was how we started building a name for ourselves. I can't tell you how many times I got asked, "Why do you play standing up?" or, "You know you have a chair, there, right?" Other players starting picking up that all the Nor-Calers stand when they play. Why, you ask?

It's because Heroscape is a standing game. And we stand tall.

Next year, we should have S1R come play too. Be ready gentlemen.


Oh, and a couple other things. My only regret was that I didn't beat Dok. I'm sorry I let the rest of Gencon down by not having a real army win the main event. :p I had a lot of people rooting for the Knights to defeat the cheese.

Dok is a class act though, and our match was pretty close until the very end. If I had gotten just a couple of good hits through without him rolling nearly all shields everytime I did skulls, I could easily have made it to the Final... and then need to do it all again with ManTrain. >< Our match was close, but Dok didn't let up and he took it. Congrats to him for playing undefeated. Well played.

As for the talk of banning figures or adjusting the tournament structure, Menchi and I discussed the top two army results at length on the drive back. Did Dok or ManTrain ever face a Braxas army? I faced one and Menchi faced two or three on Day 1. Both Dok and MT are top players, so Braxas alone would not defeat them, but considering the rat intensity of their armies, it's significant to note that something as simple as not facing a great rat killer like Braxas helped favor their ascension to Day 2 just as KC not coming across Q9 helped him.

It amuses me in my quest to select an army for this year's Gencon with the goal of featuring the Hydra (who honestly, I didn't expect to see as many as I did, and none that I saw featured Kelda either!) one of the first armies I came up with was Hydra, Q9, Ratsx4, Marro Warriors. However, I dismissed it because I was too concerned about losing the Hydra or Q9 to a bad defense roll and gutting my offense. Yet, it's clear now that played well the army had plenty of merit.

Well... I still would have rather played the army I did. :p

As for what needs to happen to prevent tournament stagnation? As I said before, banning isn't the answer. I'd love to further contribute to a thread on that topic if someone wants to put one together.

[killercactus]

I know that dok played Pickle4192 in the Top 8, who had Braxas, Raelin and 4th x5. The thing is that Braxas still wasn't bad for dok, since Q9 and the Hydra are immune to Acid Breath.

I've been trying to think of counters to dok's army ever since he and I talked about it a month before GenCon. I can't come up with much that that army can't deal with, and most of the stuff I think up is made up of pretty terrible figures (Shades, Saylind+Krug, Deadeye Dan getting lucky, Omnicrons, etc). I'm guessing that's why he played it - Q9 and the Hydra do a great job of mitigating Deathreaver's bad matchups. Trons could've been tough for him MAYBE, but Rats do a pretty good job of stalling them. I'm thinking a Stinger Horde had the best chance - I told wdgrant that before he played his Top 16 game aganist dok, and they both said it was their closest game of the tournament.

Dodging Q9 (and Rats for the most part) certainly did help me. It would've been much tougher to make Day 2 had I went up against that a couple times. Still though - FRENZY!!!!

[Devil's Advocate]

Heavies are probably the wortst matchup for that Army, Stingers can be tough, Suicide Mass if they have a figure that can auto kill/negate Q9 or AE to drop behind th elines.

[stubobj]

Heres pics of the top 3 getting their prizes along with the top 16.

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii283/lois_lane1015/Gencon%202010/100_3708.jpg
dok

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii283/lois_lane1015/Gencon%202010/100_3705.jpg
Girlytrainchoochoo... I mean Mantrainchoochoo

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii283/lois_lane1015/Gencon%202010/100_3703.jpg
RoninValentina

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii283/lois_lane1015/Gencon%202010/100_3682.jpg
Left to Right (backrow): Scaper_dude, Menchi, Pickle4192, Fishtako, dragonmaster384, wdgrant, Roninvalentina, dok, chris, ET86, Matthias, Mantrainchoochoo, Rÿchean Left to Right (frontrow): Jexik, Tinny Timmy, Killercactus

[stubobj]

And here were the first round match ups:

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii283/lois_lane1015/Gencon%202010/100_3690.jpg
Tiny Timmy vs Rÿchean

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii283/lois_lane1015/Gencon%202010/100_3689.jpg
Fishtaco vs dragonmaster384

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii283/lois_lane1015/Gencon%202010/100_3688.jpg
Mantrainchoochoo Vs Matthias

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii283/lois_lane1015/Gencon%202010/100_3687.jpg
Jexik vs Menchi

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii283/lois_lane1015/Gencon%202010/100_3684.jpg
Pickle4192 vs Scaper_dude

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii283/lois_lane1015/Gencon%202010/100_3683.jpg
dok vs wdgrant

Ive got the other 2 matches I just need to find the pics.

Edit:
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii283/lois_lane1015/Gencon%202010/100_3686.jpg
ET86 vs killercactus

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii283/lois_lane1015/Gencon%202010/100_3685.jpg
RoninValentina vs Chris

[Matthias Maccabeus]

I thought it was awesome that 3 knight armies made day 2. 8)


Then I thought that it sucked that my 2 losses were to 3 x rats (dok) and 4 x rats (Girltrainchoochoo) and Menchi's loss on day 2 was to (GTCC) rats x 4 and RoninValentina's loss was to (dok) rats x 4. :roll:

I had the privilege of playing against Menchi's knights 2 times. I almost got to play against RV's knights before the pairings were switched. From what I could see both of these guys played the knights very well.

[Jexik]

I thought it was cool that I made day 2, and that my loss to Menchi was fun and exciting.

[dok]

Well, if it wasn't for rats, the knights would win every tournament, right? (I'm not entirely kidding.)

Aside: props to RV for beating Chris's 10th/Marcus combo with knights. That's probably the most surprising first round win. (I'd love to read a battle report on it.)

Thanks for posting those pics, stubobj.

[dok]

Gerda is not fun.According to Rychean we won't see it again at Gencon. But at the same time, the presence of that glyph was part of what made the finals a really interesting game. Without it, the strategy might have been pretty obvious. It forced us to do more than just fight over the central raised platform.

[Grungebob]

Gerda is not fun.According to Rÿchean we won't see it again at Gencon. But at the same time, the presence of that glyph was part of what made the finals a really interesting game. Without it, the strategy might have been pretty obvious. It forced us to do more than just fight over the central raised platform.I personally feel that we have a glut of things that add to defense. Gerda is overkill.

[lonewolf]

Heavy Gruts are the best matchup against the Vydar Range Pod. Dok dodged a bullet when Scaper_Dude (Heavies) got matched against Pickle(Braxas/4th) in the first round. Braxas/4th was probably the worst matchup for Scaper_Dude, but not a bad matchup for Dok, so he eliminated his bad matchup and got a good matchup and didn't have to do a thing! :)

[MattserTruckRally]

I'm all for the elimination of Gerda as it's presence slows the game down and we're already pressed enough for time in these matches as it stands anyway. Gerda also makes Raelin & Deathreavers that much more difficult to beat.

My favorite glyph is Wound, as it speeds up the game and encourages aggression.

[Jexik]

I'm all for the elimination of Gerda as it's presence slows the game down and we're already pressed enough for time in these matches as it stands anyway. Gerda also makes Raelin & Deathreavers that much more difficult to beat.

I'd honestly prefer Wound only since it speeds up the game and encourages aggression.

Wound was there this year. I had it in at least one of my games.

It's probably one of my favorite glyphs, mostly because (like init.), it bucks the trend of, "the best play is to stand on this glyph forever."

[dok]

Yeah, my favorite two glyphs are wound and move. Both speed the game up and encourage agression, but rarely win the game by themselves.

[Jexik]

Hmm. Just noticed that the only Stinger army on day 2 this year was wdgrant, at the 16th seed. Quite a change from last year. Maybe this stuff is just cyclical- different units go in and out of style due to unknown forces.

[dok]

It doesn't seems so mysterious, really. It's a combination of three things, I think:


People metagaming against last year (i.e. countering Braxas/Grimnak)
The new figures opening up new options (GSW armies, Hydra)
Random fluctuation

I personally thought stingers were a bad move this year. You had to be able to beat knights/gruts to win, but stingers aren't that great against melee without rats. But with the high point upgrades, you couldn't really play rats alongside another common squad on day 1 if you wanted to win on day 2. I thought the best stinger option was Raelin/Q9/stingersx4, but that only gets rats at the 600 point level (have to go with more stingers at 620/640). And Hendal couldn't make day 2 with that army (I'm guessing he lost to some powerful melee builds).

Incidentally, Kurrok/ratsx2/FEx10 looks pretty good against my army on day 1... and that's 35 points light. Maybe the firestorm is good for the metagame after all?

[killercactus]

I don't know if heavies wouldve been that bad for dok. The hydra goes a long way to help that out if it can get Grimnak quickly.

Though, it's not like Grimnak ever dies is one OM, right lonewolf?

[lonewolf]

I don't know if heavies wouldve been that bad for dok. The hydra goes a long way to help that out if it can get Grimnak quickly.

Though, it's not like Grimnak ever dies is one OM, right lonewolf?

Grimnak got PUNKED!

I agree that the Hydra is a great counter, but I still believe that the Heavies are the best option available against that army.

[MattserTruckRally]

I'd argue that the Stingers/Kaemon/Raelin/Reavers combo could easily hang with it on day 1. The problem is that this army loses a ton of value once reinforcements are added.

[dok]

I don't know if heavies wouldve been that bad for dok. The hydra goes a long way to help that out if it can get Grimnak quickly.That was the idea, yeah. I never faced Gruts, but the Hydra did serve as my startzone bouncer against Nilfheim (although it took twelve attacks of 5 over three turns to take him out) as well as taking out Braxas on the way to my startzone in the quarters against Pickle.

My matchup against scaper_dude would have been tough, for sure. if we had played on Fissure like I did against Pickle, I would have double-layered my rats at several key choke points, which would have made things hard for him. I could use the 9x1 attack on the Krav, and send the Hydra out when Grimnak gets close. It would come down to whether I could get the matchups I wanted in the spots I wanted.

Though, it's not like Grimnak ever dies is one OM, right lonewolf?And in the unlikely event that he did, there's no way that Gruts without champions could beat WTF'ing 4th Mass, right?

[dok]

I'd argue that the Stingers/Kaemon/Raelin/Reavers combo could easily hang with it on day 1. The problem is that this army loses a ton of value once reinforcements are added.Yes, many stinger/reaver combos could have done well on day 1. They just have no good upgrade path. Ratsx3/Stingersx3/Raelin/Kaemon is 23 hexes, and would have had to do something like Othkurik (drop a rat) on day 2. That's not ideal. Even at 600, you're adding Syvarris, which isn't terrible but is the weak point of the army, relatively speaking.

[ollie]

I'd argue that the Stingers/Kaemon/Raelin/Reavers combo could easily hang with it on day 1. The problem is that this army loses a ton of value once reinforcements are added.Yes, many stinger/reaver combos could have done well on day 1. They just have no good upgrade path. Ratsx3/Stingersx3/Raelin/Kaemon is 23 hexes, and would have had to do something like Othkurik (drop a rat) on day 2. That's not ideal. Even at 600, you're adding Syvarris, which isn't terrible but is the weak point of the army, relatively speaking.

140pts and a single hex? That screams Deathwalker 9000.

With Raelin and all those rats around I'd say it was not too bad a choice. Set yourself up and drop your first order marker and the X for each round on the big guy (maybe switch it round depending on what your opponent targets, or if you need to adjust rats/Raelin).

[MattserTruckRally]

Yes, many stinger/reaver combos could have done well on day 1. They just have no good upgrade path. Ratsx3/Stingersx3/Raelin/Kaemon is 23 hexes, and would have had to do something like Othkurik (drop a rat) on day 2. That's not ideal. Even at 600, you're adding Syvarris, which isn't terrible but is the weak point of the army, relatively speaking.

This to me also makes me believe that reinforcements may be simply too 'cute'. While they seem good in practice, the ratpodges gain immensely from a pleothra of sideboard options while other armies just add to their existing base. Case in point being that in 2010 both ratpodges made it to the finals, and my ratpodge winning in 2009. I find it rather ironic that armies with 10 pt apiece figures benefit so much from a higher ramped point value then other armies even with the 24 starting space limitation.

Of course part of the fun with reinforcements is finding out how to make a strong day 1 base with great day 2 adds.

[dok]

I'd argue that the Stingers/Kaemon/Raelin/Reavers combo could easily hang with it on day 1. The problem is that this army loses a ton of value once reinforcements are added.Yes, many stinger/reaver combos could have done well on day 1. They just have no good upgrade path. Ratsx3/Stingersx3/Raelin/Kaemon is 23 hexes, and would have had to do something like Othkurik (drop a rat) on day 2. That's not ideal. Even at 600, you're adding Syvarris, which isn't terrible but is the weak point of the army, relatively speaking.

140pts and a single hex? That screams Deathwalker 9000.

With Raelin and all those rats around I'd say it was not too bad a choice. Set yourself up and drop your first order marker and the X for each round on the big guy (maybe switch it round depending on what your opponent targets, or if you need to adjust rats/Raelin).If there is ever a spot, it's there, I guess. However, there were only two rat armies... it's just that both of them added more rats and then made the finals, so it feels like there were more.

Othkurik's special is decent against rats, too... he gets a maximum of 3 targets with his splash, but how often do you get 4+ with DW9k anyway? And lurking ambush seems like a good way to take off some Hydra heads.

Tiny Timmy actually had this decision (full startzone, 140 points to work with) and chose Othkurik.

(Aside: lonewolf did play DW9k in the "Monster Mash" format, where you had to have 3 large/huge figures. He had 3xGlads/2xBlasts/2xDumutef taking 24 hexes already, so a 1-hex large figure was pretty handy for him. He made finals but lost to Cleon's Nilf/Q9/Zeta ratpodge.)

[dok]

Yes, many stinger/reaver combos could have done well on day 1. They just have no good upgrade path. Ratsx3/Stingersx3/Raelin/Kaemon is 23 hexes, and would have had to do something like Othkurik (drop a rat) on day 2. That's not ideal. Even at 600, you're adding Syvarris, which isn't terrible but is the weak point of the army, relatively speaking.

This to me also makes me believe that reinforcements may be simply too 'cute'. While they seem good in practice, the ratpodges gain immensely from a pleothra of sideboard options while other armies just add to their existing base. Case in point being that in 2010 both ratpodges made it to the finals, and my ratpodge winning in 2009. I find it rather ironic that armies with 10 pt apiece figures benefit so much from a higher ramped point value then other armies even with the 24 starting space limitation.

Of course part of the fun with reinforcements is finding out how to make a strong day 1 base with great day 2 adds.The thing about ratpodges is that you're guaranteed to find several that work at any point level. So if you spend enough time tweaking around, you're pretty much guaranteed to find one with an upgrade path that works really well. My army probably had more sweet upgrade options (i.e. upgrades that really add something as opposed to being filler-ish) than anybody in the field.

That said, there are plenty of other builds that also get it done. scaper_dude's upgraded army was nasty; he just ran into his army's worst possible matchup. wdgrant got exactly what he needed to make our match interesting. RoninValentina's upgrade worked perfectly - he even had Marcu to counter Wannok in our match. If you had made day 2, adding two more squads of knights to that core would make you very, very hard to beat.

[RoninValentina]

Well, if it wasn't for rats, the knights would win every tournament, right? (I'm not entirely kidding.)

Aside: props to RV for beating Chris's 10th/Marcus combo with knights. That's probably the most surprising first round win. (I'd love to read a battle report on it.)

Thanks for posting those pics, stubobj.

The funny thing about my match with Chris at the start of Day 2 was that Chris was my only loss Day 1. On Day 1 we played on Jotun's Gap, and I killed most of his 10th with my Knights fighting for height. I held the upper hand early on, but by miscount he managed to engage one of my Krav early, dropped the AE to get another via adjacency, and got the last by a whiffed defense roll later. At that point, his range took its toll on my scattered forces. At the game's end, It was down to two Knights vs 2 AE and an untouched Marcus. So he beat me, but not by much. But the first match really taught me how Chris was running his army.

On Day 2, we played Warden. Thanks to Gilbert I took Defense +1 and the Move +2 Glyphs pretty quickly. I also held the Wannok in the center. He and I fought over the Defense Glyph, and while he kept kicking me off of it, he could never take it himself. I held the Move glyph the whole time. Again, I took an early lead and I slaughtered all the 10th he advanced out of his start zone. I got Knights around Raelin and took her out too. Then he had a fantastic run where he killed something like six knights in 2 or 3 OMs. Then I moved up the Krav and began cleaning up the 10th. He started rolling for the AE, knowing he needed them to show, but they would never drop. ( i should note here he deliberately chose not to roll for them at the beginning of the game.) In fact, the last two rounds were heartbreaking for him- he only had Brave Arrow and a wounded Marcus remaining at the end of the round, and he rolled an 11 for the AE. I then killed Marcus and brought Brave Arrow to ONE LIFE, at the end of my 3rd OM. He got one last chance to roll the AE, and rolled a 1.

At the end I had 1 Krav, maybe four or five Knights, my Hydra, and Marcu in the start zone, and a wounded Fin. I felt really bad for him, but I was also quite relieved. With the map as it was, even that last round, dropping the AE could have made a big difference.

[killercactus]

Though, it's not like Grimnak ever dies is one OM, right lonewolf?And in the unlikely event that he did, there's no way that Gruts without champions could beat WTF'ing 4th Mass, right?[/QUOTE]

Only if the Mass have height most of the time.