Point caps in Valhallascape

[Sherman Davies]

Going over my Heroscape collection spreadsheets (don't judge me), I once again noticed that Tor-Kul-Na and Jotun remain the Valhallascape figures with the highest point cost, 220 and 225 points respectively. Heroscape contains costlier figures, but they are all Marvelscape units.

My question is, do you think this should remain the case or would you like seeing Valhallascape figures more powerful and costly than Jotun? Do you think D&Dscape will lead to this happening?

[flameslayer93]

Going over my Heroscape collection spreadsheets (don't judge me), I once again noticed that Tor-Kul-Na and Jotun remain the Valhallascape figures with the highest point cost, 220 and 225 points respectively. Heroscape contains costlier figures, but they are all Marvelscape units.

My question is, do you think this should remain the case or would you like seeing Valhallascape figures more powerful and costly than Jotun? Do you think D&Dscape will lead to this happening?

Actually, I doubt it. Most of the normal DnD figures that are close to scale of HS don't look particularly devastating. So no is my answer.

[Pickledpie]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_YZQKE8VlNxg/Sd0mWMRJepI/AAAAAAAAAgg/DCBPPzqjR3s/s320/beholder+IMGP2105.JPG

Something like that I could see being a huge cost. I don't really like big point heroes anyways, I think that they make for very boring play. That's what the designers probably think too, and that's why we haven't seen many over 200.

[nyys]

I don't think I'd like to see them go any higher unless they synergize with a much cheaper unit (like TKN with the Grubs). TKN for that reason is a very playable figure, Jotun not so much IMO (though he is a lot of fun when you get to chuck people around).

[nate the dawg]

Like the pictured beholder above, most DND units that would require a level of power (and appropriately high point cost) are legendary creatures, such as Tiamat and the Tarrasque(sp?). The majority of mosters/villains in DND are more in the range of classic vahallascape figures. While guys like Jotun and TKN are quite expensive, I don't think that they share that jaw-dropping level of power that the biggest DND threats possess. I'd have to say that (except for a few cases) the DND units are mostly lacking the 'bang' that would accompany such a high cost.

Would I like seeing Valhallascape figures more powerful and costly than Jotun? Sure! Although my group mostly plays the norm, 500 or so point matches, I love mixing Marvel, and I don't care if some say that the two don't mix well. If anything, the really expensive figures are more of a detriment than boon to the player drafting them, but, if they are fun to play, isn't that what really counts?

[nyys]

What if you don't think they are fun to play? Just sayin.

[Kaemon Awa 123]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_YZQKE8VlNxg/Sd0mWMRJepI/AAAAAAAAAgg/DCBPPzqjR3s/s320/beholder+IMGP2105.JPG

Something like that I could see being a huge cost. I don't really like big point heroes anyways, I think that they make for very boring play. That's what the designers probably think too, and that's why we haven't seen many over 200.
OHMYGODABEHOLDER!!! ME WANTS!!!
No, but seriously I agree. If they don't respect that figure with a high cost, I will be mad.

[flameslayer93]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_YZQKE8VlNxg/Sd0mWMRJepI/AAAAAAAAAgg/DCBPPzqjR3s/s320/beholder+IMGP2105.JPG

Something like that I could see being a huge cost. I don't really like big point heroes anyways, I think that they make for very boring play. That's what the designers probably think too, and that's why we haven't seen many over 200.
OHMYGODABEHOLDER!!! ME WANTS!!!
No, but seriously I agree. If they don't respect that figure with a high cost, I will be mad.

Scratch that, if they disrespect that figure's rarity by making it extra available, I will be mad.

[dragon master]

me too:evil::evil:

[Sherman Davies]

What if you don't think they are fun to play?

Ummm... don't play with them, and let those who do think they are fun play with them? ;)

Aside from the beholder, I would think that if we get any of the D&D giants in Heroscape they'd naturally be as powerful as Jotun, if not a little more. I'm not familiar enough with D&D to think of any other monsters that powerful that would also fit on a double base.

[Odin_Osgard]

What if you don't think they are fun to play? Just sayin.

Then don't play them?

damn.

[Cavalier]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_YZQKE8VlNxg/Sd0mWMRJepI/AAAAAAAAAgg/DCBPPzqjR3s/s320/beholder+IMGP2105.JPG

Something like that I could see being a huge cost. I don't really like big point heroes anyways, I think that they make for very boring play. That's what the designers probably think too, and that's why we haven't seen many over 200.
OHMYGODABEHOLDER!!! ME WANTS!!!
No, but seriously I agree. If they don't respect that figure with a high cost, I will be mad.

Scratch that, if they disrespect that figure's rarity by making it extra available, I will be mad.
Not me. I'd love it...no such thing as (artificially) rare in HS:twisted:

[Schulzy]

I don't think we need to see anything bigger/more powerful/more expensive than Jotun or TKN, but I'd like to see just a couple more figures in the same 200-220 point range. Throwing down a baddie like that is fun, and I think we could use more of it.

[Johngee]

Interesting and informative discussion, since I am not very familiar with the D&D line. I would not mind a few new figures in the 200 range, but I am hoping to see more common squads in the less than 100 point category.

[nate the dawg]

I would not mind a few new figures in the 200 range, but I am hoping to see more common squads in the less than 100 point category.

I'm actually surprised with how many 120+ point figures have come out of DND so far. Not that it's a bad thing - It makes sense that some of the big monsters would be powerful enough to deserve such cost.
But I would like to see some more of the really expensive ones, just to give Jotun and the dragons somebody new to fight.

[Chilling Touch]

I really enjoy playing charos (thank you gs') and I really think that a few more above 200, would make gameplay more fun, even if you do not play them. I would like to see a few more in the 200-250 range, but I also agree that over that decreases playability.

[dragon master]

I agree with Nate. I like having a 2 man army[jotun and charos].

[wriggz]

Something occurs at the higher point limit that changes how units play. When you break the 200 pt mark and increase the Att, Def and ability to move quickly (flying) too much the units play different than traditional units. They have very large variance which leads to greater swings in play. This can be lots of fun, but does not fit well into the current game stats.

Creating an off shoot with high point figures may work, but comparing them to 50 point squads and 10 point heroes is simply too different.

[Jexik]

I think there are certain sweet spots in Heroscape, like 70 for a common squad, and 120 for a Unique, where, if you make the squad feel "right" for roughly that total, you've got yourself something that gels well with Valhallascape. Too low and it feels like you shouldn't bother with an OM on it (Shiori), or it feels underpriced (Raelin I or Stingers), and too high and it just messes with how much emphasis is put on one figure (expensive squads, Major Q9, any Marvels, and even some of my favorites like Nilfheim and Braxas).

But people who really enjoy playing the big dragons, avoid common squads, and enjoy marvel too, would probably really enjoy some expensive figures.

[ROADRAGE]

I think a lot of people would enjoy some higher point figures that can do it all including myself and while playing these can be a blast they can also be a bust when they die prematurely i.e. Braxus and this is also fun for experienced players when they destroy that big guy.

There is also figures like Kato and Sparty that cost 200 and aid some of the weaker armies out there so hopefully we get some more of this in the future.

[Gulp]

I'd like to see some really expensive units that give the feel of doing a World of Warcraft raid.

500 point Dragon

Dragon may choose two of these attacks:
1. Fire Breath Special Attack
Attack 5. Range: any unit within 6 hexes of the front dragon hex.

2. Mind Control or Fear

3. At the end of each round, each hex on level 1 within 6 hexes of the dragon is treated as a lava field.

4. On a roll of 12 or higher, place two Fire Elementals adjacent to the Dragon.

5. Before taking a turn with Dragon, take a turn with two Fire Elementals.

Life 15
Move 6
Range 6
Attack 6
Defense 6

Just shooting from the hip with these stats/abilities, but I've been thinking about this for a while.

Might need a bigger card.

[Aldin]

I guess I just wonder what exciting things I would or could do >225. It seems to me there are two prototypes that could work:

1) Drizzt/Lord of Blades/Other High Level Hero/Villain.

Since at such high point totals they become one man armies it is difficult to figure out how to balance them against both heroes and squads. It is also tricky to make sure they would be fun to play and to play against by more traditional armies. Since there almost needs to be a way to attack multiples and an autoshield or healing factor built in, there isn't much room for creative powers.

Example:

Hunefer
Undead

Size M 5
Life 7
Move 6
Range 1
Attack 7
Defense 5

Great Cleave
Each time Hunefer destroys a figure with a normal attack, Hunefer may make another normal attack.

Chain Lightning Special Attack
Range 7 + Special. Attack 5. The first target of Chain Lightning Special Attack must be within a Range of 7. After attacking with Chain Lightning Special Attack, if the defending figure receives at least 2 wounds, all enemy figures within two spaces of the defending figure receive one unblockable wound.

Fast Healing 2
Before rolling initiative remove up to two wound markers from this card.

Stealth Flying
When counting spaces for Hunefer's movement, ignore elevations. Hunefer may fly over water without stopping, pass over figures without becoming engaged, and fly over obstacles such as ruins. If Hunefer is engaged when it starts to fly, it will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

2) A Summoner/Ressurector/Commander

This concept is probably someone who can ease OM management while simultaneously bringing back dead figures. A powered-up mobile Hive.

Example:

Lich King
Undead

Size M 5
Life 9
Move 5
Range 1
Attack 6
Defense 6

Undead Horde
All figures in an army containing a Lich King have Undead as their Species unless they are Soulborgs or Constructs.

Horde Assault
After revealing an Order Marker on a Lich King, instead of taking a turn with the Lich King, you may immediately take a turn with up to two different Undead heroes and/or squads you control.

Rise Again
Before rolling initiative, place up to three of your previously destroyed Undead figures adjacent to a Lich King you control.

~Aldin, imaginatively

[Kroz]

I want that lich with my Zombies!

[Warlord Alpha]

I would love to see a couple figures in the 200 point range. I have actually been disappointed that we have only really had two figures of over 150 points thus far. Sure, a bunch of cheap figures are nice, but sometimes you just want to draft a huge dragon or something that can really bring a lot of pain.

Just one or two in the 200-275 point range, and one or two more in the 150-200 point range, would be nice.


edit: to the person who gave me the anonymous rep, I meant that we have only recieved two units over 150 points in D&Dscape (warhulk - 150 and Shurrak - 160), not in all of Heroscape.

[IAmBatman]

I'm always in favor of exploring what the game is capable of. Can it handle figures at 500, 1,000, or more points? I'm not sure, but I'd sure love to see it tried. I think with a system as much fun as this one, it's worth exploring all of its possibilities, even if they don't fit into any "sweet spots."

[nuk]

Just hope Deadeye doesn't assassinate your 500 point monster.

[flameslayer93]

http://i45.tinypic.com/deqjur.gif

;)

[mysterium]

I imagine the tricky part about a high-point unit is that firstly, you have the Dead Eye Dan issue, were maybe a lucky twenty ruins your whole army, but also the problem about it being nothing more than rolling and hoping for the best. With only one unit, you pretty much just charge it out, use any powers, and try to kill your opponent. That said, IamBatman is right, seeing the designers make some sort of unit that requires careful play and thought when using the powers. Maybe some type of power like the dwarves, where you can have an up and down to each power. Now, another problem is the fact that if this thing is good, then you could face it at tourney's constantly, but if it is bad then no one would use it (KC, maybe, but no one else). It would have to be a "B+" so that it would be good, but not broke. It would be a very tricky challenge, and I think I might be curious about the approach the designers take. Also, making a sculpt wicked and cool enough for it to seem like a 500 point figure.
As to the point cap, I don't see DnD making a more powerful unit than Jotun or Torky. The beholder, I'm sorry, looks really horrible, and whatever the DnD rare status means doesn't seem to help the issue. In classic scape, I think it would really change things up, for better or worse would depend on the design.

[CapnRedChops]

I'd like to see some really expensive units that give the feel of doing a World of Warcraft raid.

500 point Dragon

Dragon may choose two of these attacks:
1. Fire Breath Special Attack
Attack 5. Range: any unit within 6 hexes of the front dragon hex.

2. Mind Control or Fear

3. At the end of each round, each hex on level 1 within 6 hexes of the dragon is treated as a lava field.

4. On a roll of 12 or higher, place two Fire Elementals adjacent to the Dragon.

5. Before taking a turn with Dragon, take a turn with two Fire Elementals.

Life 15
Move 6
Range 6
Attack 6
Defense 6

Just shooting from the hip with these stats/abilities, but I've been thinking about this for a while.

Might need a bigger card.

This is a little off topic

I have a Gargantuan Black Dragon (henceforth GBD) from the D & D line, the figure is massive in scale proportions, and it's square base is bigger than a 7 hex block. I have been thinking of setting up a skirmish in heroscape where it's all on to the GBD, armies getting less points and the number of armies (ie players) increases, GBD has an increase and extension of Othkurik's powers, etc... but problems arise as soon as you start thinking about gargantuan sculpt movement.

You can whack a hex fitting base underneath it, pick a hex to move with, no problem, but how do you work out the trailing hex rules? and there's very few places on the normal heroscape battlefield where a creature of that size can rest with all base hexes at the same level. You could make a custom battlefield that resembles the final level of a recent console/PC RPG I could mention, but don't want to spoil, with certain spots where the GBD can land, but how do you treat units in the landing zone, and is the whole 'landing zone map' a little artificial? Does turning cost movement points for gargantuan sculpts? Should we give a defense penalty to gargantuan sculpts if their attackers manage to get behind them?

I have bodgy untested solutions for these problems - but for WotC to come up with real solutions to the Gargantuan size sculpts there would need to be a massive investment in playtesting, and Heroscape might be a different game afterwards...

CRC

[Kroz]

I say no to anything bigger than 2 hexes. It's just ridiculous and really, the game doesn't support them. They could make a rule for them but I just don't think I'd enjoy them.

[flameslayer93]

I say no to anything bigger than 2 hexes. It's just ridiculous and really, the game doesn't support them. They could make a rule for them but I just don't think I'd enjoy them.

The game supports the Marro Hive. I think the only way we could get a figure more than 2 hexes in HS is if it plays by Hive rules(i.e. no moving).

[Kroz]

I say no to anything bigger than 2 hexes. It's just ridiculous and really, the game doesn't support them. They could make a rule for them but I just don't think I'd enjoy them.

The game supports the Marro Hive. I think the only way we could get a figure more than 2 hexes in HS is if it plays by Hive rules(i.e. no moving).

That's true.

[Johngee]

Don't forget the Marvel Wharehouse and Fortress Door - they are both larger than two hexes, don't move, and have their own stat cards, so technically that make them units, right?

[skye]

I do think more units on the higher end of the current price scale could be interesting and fun, but I think there would need to be a change to the current standard of game style.
As others have said numerous places elsewhere; if the point value for a game was increased ~600-700, but the starting hex count remained the same, or was reduced slightly, maybe 20, this would encourage the usage of higher point figures and squads, you could draft 4 squads or reavers and would need to bring in a few heavy hitters to fill the remaining 440-540 points in 4-8 hexes.
I'm not sure this change would be warranted until more units were priced with Jotun and friends.

[dragon master]

I would like to see maybe two figures from a point range of 200-250, but nothing over two hexes.

[IAmBatman]

Just hope Deadeye doesn't assassinate your 500 point monster.

A clever designer can get around such issues easily.

I do think more units on the higher end of the current price scale could be interesting and fun, but I think there would need to be a change to the current standard of game style.
As others have said numerous places elsewhere; if the point value for a game was increased ~600-700, but the starting hex count remained the same, or was reduced slightly, maybe 20, this would encourage the usage of higher point figures and squads, you could draft 4 squads or reavers and would need to bring in a few heavy hitters to fill the remaining 440-540 points in 4-8 hexes.
I'm not sure this change would be warranted until more units were priced with Jotun and friends.

The thing is, whose standard is this? I think a lot of people accept "the" standard a bit too easily around here. 500 points, BoV, 24 start zones is a nice tournament standard, but tournaments shouldn't be the standard. I mean, it's a game designed for casual drafting and at home fun before all else! :-) A standard game for me runs 600-1500 points on a regular basis.

[Sport351]

I would like to see a larger point figure in the 500 range, as well as more closer to Torky and Jotun. Tork is one of my favorite figures to play, in smaller games he and his grubs take up the better half of your army, but you're almost guranteed an entertaining game. I've only played against Jotun, and the throwing power brought a lot of laughs to the gametable. More big figures with unique and fun powers, from tossing to stomping, can only be a good thing. For 500 pointers, it would have to be a large-scale game. But it could be a lot of fun, so long as thier abilities reflect said cost. And with the design team that's served us balanced and fun units for many waves, I have no doubts they could make it work.

[Kroz]

I never got Jotun's throw to work...ever. Every single time I/we roll for it, it fails.

[Killometer]

The thing is, whose standard is this? I think a lot of people accept "the" standard a bit too easily around here. 500 points, BoV, 24 start zones is a nice tournament standard, but tournaments shouldn't be the standard. I mean, it's a game designed for casual drafting and at home fun before all else! :-) A standard game for me runs 600-1500 points on a regular basis.

But I'm betting that most people here don't consider 1500 point games "standard", since for most of us that usually requires more (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=28591) than (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=29555) four (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=28589) figures (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1050849#post1050849). ;)

[kolakoski]

The winner of the Custom 500 point, One-Man Army contest would be acceptable. Its not the number of points, it's that intangible attribute: elegance.

[IAmBatman]

The thing is, whose standard is this? I think a lot of people accept "the" standard a bit too easily around here. 500 points, BoV, 24 start zones is a nice tournament standard, but tournaments shouldn't be the standard. I mean, it's a game designed for casual drafting and at home fun before all else! :-) A standard game for me runs 600-1500 points on a regular basis.

But I'm betting that most people here don't consider 1500 point games "standard", since for most of us that usually requires more (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=28591) than (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=29555) four (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=28589) figures (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1050849#post1050849). ;)

My point was that I don't believe in "standard." Standards though, sure, or I wouldn't have wound up with my wife. :-D

The winner of the Custom 500 point, One-Man Army contest would be acceptable. Its not the number of points, it's that intangible attribute: elegance.

I agree - elegance is a major factor in any great card.

[Gulp]

One way to get around the base size problem might be to make this unit 2 or more separate double hexes. One is the front part of the dragon, and the other is the second part. The back of the front always has to remain engaged with the front of the back. I could see this slithering like a chain across a map, over terrain chasing units.

Two cards. The back one has abilities like tail swipe or kick.

This could be pretty cool.

[IAmBatman]

I think the best way to handle giant figures is to go Marro Hive on them and just make the action come to them (that's how it usually works with huge monsters in dungeons anyway).
But I think that high costing figures and large sized figures are different topics all together.

[Sherman Davies]

Strangely enough, despite being the person who started this thread, I'd feel uncomfortable with units costing more than 370 points (the highest official cost set by Marvelscape). My personal preference would be to see a couple more Valhallascape or D&Dscape units within that 225-370 point range.

[IAmBatman]

I think the current official units in that range struggle to be worth their points, mostly due to attrition from squadscape holding them down. If units are going to be designed with costs that high, I think they need to be equipped with more answers for squads.

[Delph]

I too would like to see more high value heroes. They need not be huge in scale and as it looks like demons are making an appearance, now might be the time.

I matters little if they appear to imbalance the game, people will always find a way to counter. I would just like to see something mix it up a bit.

[lefton4ya]

Imagine if the Hydra was 8 defense and 6+ life. It would be worth more than 225 and would hold its own against squads. It would still be going to the battle and not waiting for people to come to him.

Or even if a Dragon like Braxas or Nilfheim was like 5 defense and 8 life. If it has a SA that could take down 3 units a turn, it'd be worth 300 probably as it could still take out squads and be hard to kill.

Either of these would still not be "broken" as eventually enough 2-4 hit squad or 5+ hit hero attacks would take it down. Jotun is not good in anything but Marvel/C3G-Scape or Hero-centric/high point armies, but the above options would be good in high or low point games against heroes or squads.

[IAmBatman]

This is all I'm saying - high point units are doable, but they have to have good squad countering abilities or they'll never stack up to the metagame.
The higher the cost goes, the more of a challenge it becomes to make a unit both worth its cost and not broken. I think that taking concepts applied to current designs and just adding more and more life is really one way to do it, though (but there are other concerns to tackle such as providing powers that avoid auto destroy powers from taking them out).

[Toad Rocket]

Why does this hypothetical 500 point character have to be so massive?

Why cant it be normal dragon size(or even smaller)? Superman would be a good example.

[Sherman Davies]

I agree with lefton4ya and Bats that upping the Life on certain pre-existing templates would be a simple (but not the only) way to achieve balanced, high-cost heroes. Nilfheim is a great example of a figure that can hold his own against both heroes and squads.

[IAmBatman]

185 isn't exactly a high point cost, though. ;-) The higher the points get, the more difficult it gets to feel like you're getting a true "return on investment."

[Delph]

How about a beholder? 300 pts? 350?


Life-8
Move-4
Range-6
Att-5
Def-2

MAIN EYE
You may choose any opponent’s Unique figure within 3 clear sight spaces of Beholder. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 1–10, nothing happens. If you roll a 11–20, place a Negation Marker on the chosen figure’s Army Card. All of that figure’s special powers are negated for the entire game.

9 OTHER EYES SPECIAL ATTACK
Roll the 20-sided die.
• If you roll a 1-3, nothing happens.
• If you roll a 4–5, move affected figure to another hex no more than 3 hexes from current location.
• If you roll a 6–10, remove all turn markers from army card.
• If you roll a 10–15, destroy figure.
• If you roll a 16–20, take control of the chosen figure and that figure’s Army Card. You now control that Army Card and all figures on it. Remove any Order Markers on this card..

FLYING
When counting spaces for Beholder's movement, ignore elevations. Beholder's may fly over water without stopping, pass over figures without becoming engaged, and fly over obstacles such as ruins. When Beholder's starts to fly, if he is engaged he will take any leaving engagement attacks.

[IAmBatman]

That's cool how he gives Su-Bak-Na the power to fly. ;-)

Edit: And, no, even with his offensive potential, that 8 life and 2 defense would never make him a good draft at 300 points.

[Gulp]

How about a beholder? 300 pts? 350?


Life-8
Move-4
Range-6
Att-5
Def-2

MAIN EYE
You may choose any opponent’s Unique figure within 3 clear sight spaces of Beholder. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 1–10, nothing happens. If you roll a 11–20, place a Negation Marker on the chosen figure’s Army Card. All of that figure’s special powers are negated for the entire game.

9 OTHER EYES SPECIAL ATTACK
Roll the 20-sided die.
• If you roll a 1-3, nothing happens.
• If you roll a 4–5, move affected figure to another hex no more than 3 hexes from current location.
• If you roll a 6–10, remove all turn markers from army card.
• If you roll a 10–15, destroy figure.
• If you roll a 16–20, take control of the chosen figure and that figure’s Army Card. You now control that Army Card and all figures on it. Remove any Order Markers on this card..

FLYING
When counting spaces for Beholder's movement, ignore elevations. Beholder's may fly over water without stopping, pass over figures without becoming engaged, and fly over obstacles such as ruins. When Beholder's starts to fly, if he is engaged he will take any leaving engagement attacks.

I was about to say that this was a bit overpowered. But with 2 Def and 8 life, it might balance out. Hmmm...still thinking.

[lefton4ya]

I would say an ultimate helper Raelin The Kyrie Warrior v.X:

Life-6
Move-5
Range-1
Attack-4
Defense-4
Points: 250+

Supreme Aura: All figures you control within 6 clear sight spaces of Raelin the Kyrie Warrior add 1 to their attack and defense dice, add 2 to their move and 2 to the range of any figures with a range of 4 or more. Raelin the Kyrie Warrior’s Supremel Aura does not affect Raelin the Kyrie Warrior.

Hero Bonding. After Taking a turn with Raelin the Kyrie Warrior, you may take a turn with any other unique hero or squad.

Stealth Flying
When counting spaces for Raelin the Kyrie Warrior’s movement, ignore elevations. Raelin the Kyrie Warrior may fly over water without stopping, pass over figures without becoming engaged, and fly over obstacles such as ruins. When Raelin the Kyrie Warrior starts to fly, if she is engaged she will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

Another option would be healing ala Kelda instead of bonding, but either way - this makes "Taelord Costs too Much" irrelevant.

[skye]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman
The thing is, whose standard is this? I think a lot of people accept "the" standard a bit too easily around here. 500 points, BoV, 24 start zones is a nice tournament standard, but tournaments shouldn't be the standard. I mean, it's a game designed for casual drafting and at home fun before all else! A standard game for me runs 600-1500 points on a regular basis.

I don't necessarily disagree with you on any particular point, but the tourney scene gets the greatest press on the site. When someone asks about which packs to buy, how many, or what armies they should field; the responses almost always seem to come back with a tourney in mind. To me, it merely seems to be the way many approach the game and it doesn't seem to readily open to high-cost heavy-hitters.

That said, most games played in my house range around 1000 points, and a couple more power houses would be more than fine by me.

[S1R_ART0R1US]

I think expensive heroes still have a place in tournaments. Braxas, Nilfheim, ad Major Q9 are not cheap, but lots of players, myself included, play them competitively. I definitely think that having a big, bad, expensive unit would be neat, especially in dungeon scenarios. Maybe the blue wyrmling's big brother...Even with a huge base you could give it zero move, but some sort of teleport type ability so it could still move around. A 300 point dragon sounds appetizing, as you could still fit some units in there for 500.

[AMIS]

I'm still waiting for the squad that bonds with Jotun. Then he'd be worth the points.

[Delph]

Do you have an idea of theme for that squad? What kind of remora would attach themselves to him?

[chas]

"How do you land an airplane on an aircraft carrier?"
"Very carefully!"

;) I think the designers have answered you by making a number of powerhouses in D2 that are below that point threshhold. The Generals themselves would be that powerful, but you and many others don't want them in the game. But I'd expect to see one or two more characters in the high count eventually. Not because someone was aiming for them to be there, but to solve a specific design problem/requirement. You can check out my Beholder on my customs thread--he qualifies.

[AMIS]

Do you have an idea of theme for that squad? What kind of remora would attach themselves to him?

Of the top of my head it would be any kind of base wild tree folk that were been part of the Norse giant mythology and occasionally worshiped them would be good.

I would go for a 4-man squad (because I like four man squads).

Life 1
Move 5
Range 1
Attack 2
Defence 2

Bonding with Jotun
Before moving these wild tree folk type dudes take a turn with Jotun (okay so the wording needs help).

Special attack
Up to two wild tree folk type dudes can combine attack dice if they are within 4 clear sight space of Jotun.

Point cost - 50 to 70.

Chas,

I'm not actually a fan of beholders in general (Three stooges routines always came to mind whenever we used them in Ad&d) which is, for me personally the same issue I had with Elementals (and to a similar extent Drow) - a personal distaste, nothing else.

I'd actually love to see more Lizard men and a Gnoll squad. I admit to being very curious about the upcoming Orcs.

As for not wanting DnD to be the sole source of Heroscape figures - I'm guilty of that. But let's not highjack a thread.