Project Pokemon Brainstorming Thread: Evolution

[Kaiyu]

Welcome to the Brainstorming Thread
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRrd_l9M1OlBgizp_5cEUTsxMHTGA04aqDSvt2z-GvrntFLWyA&t=1&usg=__uBhy4bbiCUn13ckLUO-yVjtmV7c= for Project Pokémon! http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRrd_l9M1OlBgizp_5cEUTsxMHTGA04aqDSvt2z-GvrntFLWyA&t=1&usg=__uBhy4bbiCUn13ckLUO-yVjtmV7c=

(General discussion about Project Pokémon occurs here (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=29851).)
(Visit the Playtesting Thread here. (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=30274) Currently in Playtesting: Sandshrew & Squirtle)
(Participate in the Design Thread here. (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1082040#post1082040) Currently in Design: N/A)

Goals of the Brainstorming Thread

This thread provides the opportunity for Trainers and Allies alike to brainstorm about ideas for the future of Project Pokemon. This thread will act is a space for topics that aren't necessarily prevalent to what is going on in the Main, Design, or Playtesting threads, but important to the project as a whole.

Rules of the Brainstorming Thread

"The most important rule to remember is to please keep things polite. We are all working toward the same goal. Although we will not always agree with one another, all we ask if that you be polite about the way you express your opinions. If you cannot express your opinion nicely simply do not comment. If you find fault with another person's conduct, PM another core group member or myself."
-Wulfhunter667

Beyond that, everyone is free to post, just try to keep it on topic for the most part. This is the perfect spot to post your abstract ideas or deep concerns for the project, so bring up the issue at anytime. I'll be sure to keep a record of every topic that comes our way, and if we don't derail a current discussion to talk about yours, then I'll bring it back up when we're ready to move onto something new.

Some Helpful Links

Bulbapedia (http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Main_Page): The Wikipedia of Pokemon
Serebii (http://www.serebii.net/index2.shtml): Pokemon Data Archive

or my favorite... :google: If you can't find anything, just google...
1) "<Pokemon's Name>"
2) "<Pokemon Type> Type Pokemon"
3) "<Pokemon Move Name> Move Pokemon"
4) etc.
Usually the first or second link will be just what you were looking for.


There's No Such Thing As a Stupid Question

So feel free to ask anything that's on your mind. If it isn't answered on the thread, PM me or another Project Pokemon member if we don't PM you the answer first.




http://cowbirdsinlove.com/oldstuff/lickitung.JPG

[Kaiyu]

Welcome! For our first topic of interest:

In an effort to get a better picture of what the future holds for Project Pokemon, I'd like to begin giving all 151 Pokemon an overview. The simple way to say it, we're going to be looking over all 151 Pokemon, and listing all their relevant moves to Poke'scape. So moves that seem out of place, like Sandshrew's Poison Sting can be left out. The point of this is to get some insight on all of our Pokemon when we look at them as a whole, and nothing more. It is not a pre-destined list or really determines anything, but it will create a quick reference for design as well as place all of our ducks in a row. We'll be able to quickly see which Pokemon and which moves will see a lot of overlap, which can give us a heads up to avoid trouble. It will also reveal which moves will see no overlap, so we can assign those moves with ease. To make this task less overwhelming, it will be taken in chunks. We'll start with one Type and work from there. Remember, there's no reason to get too official or bureaucratic about it this. Shall we start with Ghost Type Pokemon since its smaller and relevant to Ghastly's discussion?

Pure Ghost-type Pokémon
# ↓ Name ↓
200 Misdreavus

Half Ghost-type Pokémon

Primary Ghost-type Pokémon
# ↓ Name ↓ Type 1 ↓ Type 2 ↓
092 Gastly Ghost Poison
093 Haunter Ghost Poison
094 Gengar Ghost Poison

[White Knight]

Are we keeping the discussion to the first 151? You went all the way up to 487 for the ghost types.

[Kaiyu]

Are we keeping the discussion to the first 151? You went all the way up to 487 for the ghost types.

Good point. Lets add Midsrevious at least since most people accept Johto, and we'd only have 3 otherwise.

[Warlord Alpha]

Or we could just do it by number. Like, 1-10 and then 11-20, etc.

[White Knight]

I agree with kaiyu that it would be better to take all of a single type. With water types, for example, we could see which Pokemon might use Water Gun, Hydro Pump, etc...

[Kaiyu]

I imagine people submitting lists like this, then we can discuss if there are some moves that we should take off or add.

Ghastly: Lick, Nightshade, Hypnosis, Curse, Confuse Ray, Destiny Bond
Haunter: Lick, Nightshade, Hypnosis, Curse, Confuse Ray, Destiny Bond, Dream Eater, Nightmare
Gengar: Hypnosis, Curse, Confuse Ray, Destiny Bond, Dream Eater, Nightmare, Shadow Ball

Misdreavus: Psywave, Astonish, Confuse Ray, Pain Split, Perish Song, Grudge

[minimoose38]

It is a good thing that this thread was made. Discussion on gastly had no hope of survival amongst all the new stuff in the main discussion thread.
The List of moves Kaiyu posted look good for the ghost types. A couple of TM moves that Gengar usually is taught in the competitive environment are : Thunderbolt and Focus blast. I'm not too sure how good of type coverage we want to give our pokemon but I am under the impression that the final forms should have moves as a competitive trainer would teach them. That would mean special attacks that aren't just the pokemon's type.

[Warlord Alpha]

I am assuming that it is all right to post stuff like this here? I don't want to (further) derail the main thread.


As far as implementation goes, I see the above options as being the most practical if we are going to maintain Classic Scape compatibility.

I've been meaning to bring this up for a while. Classic Heroscape compatibility has come up a lot lately, and you guys need to remember that it takes a lot to break compatibility. Like, you have to modify the basic rules of the game (like height and stuff) and then base the price of the units around those modified rules, for the figures to not be compatible with classic Heroscape. Theoretically we can add as much as we want and it would still work fine, we just can't start removing stuff.

But anyways, the main reason I bring this up: I still absolutely hate the whole "status effects must be spelled out on the card" thing. Putting that stuff in the rulebook CANNOT BREAK CLASSIC HEROSCAPE COMPATIBILITY. It is 100% impossible. I don't even know where you guys got that idea from, but it makes absolutely no sense. If we weren't going to standardize the status effects then we would definitely have to spell it out on the card, but we have planned on standardizing them from the beginning! Why in the world are we placing this horrible limitation on designers (half the card, tons of valuable space for cool attacks and abilities, gets taken up because of ONE status effect description).

I was kind of planning out Magneton in my head, and I had the thought to give him Tri-Attack. How many Pokemon can learn Tri-Attack? Like two? It is such a cool attack! And then I realized that I can't give him Tri-Attack, because there isn't even room for 2 status effect descriptions, never mind 3, plus levitate, plus whatever else I give him. Cross one excellent attack off the list.


When you get right down to it, we are WASTING, completely and utterly WASTING tons of precious card space to put these status effects there, when we could easily standardize them and put them in the rulebook. Give me one good reason why we can't put these status effects in the rulebook. We already voted on it? No, that can easily be changed. It will break compatibility with classic heroscape? No, it won't. It is impossible. It makes no sense. This should NEEDS, to be changed. I am sick of wasting tons of space on the cards. It is incredibly limiting, and has already prevented us from giving Pikachu's Thundershock the ability to inflict paralysis. What's next on the list of attacks that get stripped down because we are wasting half the card?

Explain to me why putting the status effects in the rulebook will break Classic Heroscape compatibility and I will gladly stand down on this matter.

[Kroz]

It is a good thing that this thread was made. Discussion on gastly had no hope of survival amongst all the new stuff in the main discussion thread.
The List of moves Kaiyu posted look good for the ghost types. A couple of TM moves that Gengar usually is taught in the competitive environment are : Thunderbolt and Focus blast. I'm not too sure how good of type coverage we want to give our pokemon but I am under the impression that the final forms should have moves as a competitive trainer would teach them. That would mean special attacks that aren't just the pokemon's type.

I don't know. I'd kinda like the pokemon with their natural moves. Maybe a few TM's and HM's here and there but for the most part, I'd like it to stay with their natural moves. It just seems more thematic to me. I want a gengar eating dreams and the like, not thunderbolting people.

WA, personally I don't see a problem with putting status effects in the rules book. To me it's like putting the rules for wound markers in the rule book, the grenade marker, etc.

[wulfhunter667]

Explain to me why putting the status effects in the rulebook will break Classic Heroscape compatibility and I will gladly stand down on this matter.
Allow me to reiterate this point to you again. Way back when I started this whole thing, we had this exact same arguement. It was decided by the group that the cards we create here will be 100% Classic HS compatible. Now tell me, in which HS rulebook do you find special power effects for figures? Last time I checked, ALL special powers for a figure are written on the card, no matter how long the text is. I have Charizard coming up (eventually...) and Flying alone is going to take up quite a bit of space by itself. And if I want 2 more powers, the text will end up mushed together. So, I have to think to myself, which is more important to me, as the creator, the group, who I'm prsenting it too and the community at large, who we're doing this for in the first place. I won't comprise my vision of Charizard, but I will take all of those factors into account when I create the card. WA, you said you're worried about Tri-Attack? Well, to be perfectly honest with you, I always saw Tri-Attack as more of an iconic power for Dodrio than Magneton. That's kind of the reason I told Kaiyu to start this thread in the first place. If we have this as a reference for future cards, maybe we can avoid some overlapping powers. Now, don't misunderstand me here. If you want to put Tri-Attack on Magneton, go right ahead, that's your choice. But think about it before you do it. Further, since we are implementing your normal attack typing system into the cards, in the long run, we could end up possibly seeing cards with up to five powers on them, in Pokescape terms. Our options here are far from limited, but they do need to be done properly and with quite a bit of forethought. Lastly, I will remind you of the original reason I started this whole project in the first place. I started this thing to have a way for my kids and I to relate to this game in a completely different way. Now, I don't know what kind of experience you have with kids, but let me tell you, it's difficult enough to get them to read the powers on the cards and I wouldn't want to think about how difficult it would be to get them to rereference the rulesbook everytime they used a power with a status effect. It's bad enough the official HS language and wording is the way it is. My kids have a hard time dealing with it sometimes. But to have to force them to look something up in a book when they could just read it on the card? That's just torture. I'm grown, and I don't want to have to keep rereferencing the rulesbook either. Put it on the card, nice and neat in front of you, pretty as you please. ;)

[Kroz]

Not to disagree with anyone, but the only thing that I can think of that in Official Heroscape that is close to what WA is in the heroes cards, the superstength symbol.

Now I know that many people say it's not compatible with classic scape, but it is, it's just not balanced as well as the classic figures.

I think another option would be to do the following, make cards for the effects, this would satisfy both parties. (like the glyph cards) You don't have to keep looking up things in a rules book (the card is still right there in front of you) and you get to save space on the pokemon card.

The bad thing I can see about this though is that it's one more card you have to print off and more color ink to use.

[fiddlerjones]

The ideas are appreciated, Kroz, but we settled the matter very definitively when the project first started. Lengthy debate followed by a vote codified spelling out every power on the card as Project Pokemon Policy (woo alliteration). I don't feel like going through that debate again.

Heroscape is not Warhammer. It is, by nature, a simpler game with simpler powers. This gives it an elegance that I appreciate. Spelling out the powers on the cards offers threefold benefits: the cards are more similar and compatible with Classic 'Scape; the powers are conveniently located right in front of you while you're playing; and (most importantly) it provides a natural constraint to prevent us from making the powers too complicated. Powers don't have to do exactly what they do in the video game. We can simplify and adapt to take advantage of the tactical possibilities that Heroscape offers.

</rant>

[Kaiyu]

As much as it saddens me to contrtict the possibilities, I have to agree with wulf and fiddler :( My reasons come from examples. Every non-wound marker marker is explained on the card. Morsebane's negation marker. Tagawa Samurai's experience marker. Some things, you just can't avoid if we want them to be Heroscape official.

[NightSwipe]

Some things, you just can't avoid if we want them to be Heroscape official.

That's the biggest problem right now, I think... but it will all be worth it in the end.

[White Knight]

Final vote was 19-14 in favor of keeping all Status Effect text on the cards.

You can read through the vote thread here:
http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=30052&highlight=status+effects

There were lots of arguements for and against, but in the end it came down to a vote. If anyone wants to try to overturn a vote (especially a Community Vote), we probably need rules for how to do that.

[wulfhunter667]

Final vote was 19-14 in favor of keeping all Status Effect text on the cards.

You can read through the vote thread here:
http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=30052&highlight=status+effects

There were lots of arguements for and against, but in the end it came down to a vote. If anyone wants to try to overturn a vote (especially a Community Vote), we probably need rules for how to do that.
As I've said, and Fiddler reiterated, we have discussed this a while back and we voted to have it be 100% HSC (Heroscape Compatible) with powers listed on the card. I don't know what further explaination is needed here.

[Warlord Alpha]

You guys, there is a HUGE difference between Morsbane's negation markers and, lets say a Paralysis status marker.

Morsbane Rod of Negation is on ONE FIGURE, and will likely never be used on another figure. Why would it make sense, then, for them to put Rod of Negation's marker in the rulebook? It isn't worth it, because it is only one figure out of hundreds.

The difference with Paralysis is that it is going to be going on TONS of figures. We already have two that should have it, but one doesn't because of unnecessary space constraints. There are just so many Pokemon that can learn an electric type move. In that case, the Paralysis status effect will be incredibly common. So common, in fact, that we can justify putting it in the rulebook.

Kaiyu, you mentioned the wound markers. You know where I am going with this. Take a look at Sonlen's card (http://heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=11080). For Dragon Swoop, it simply says "the chosen figure receives one wound." Wulf, it doesn't say "The chosen figure recieves one wound. If it is a squad figure destroy it. If it is a Hero figure with more than one life remaining place a wound marker on that Hero's army card." Is that too complicated for your kids? Did the designers do something wrong when they didn't spell out what to do on the card, and instead put it in the rulebook? Or is this some random exception you are going to create just so that you are right?

And guys, you still don't acknowledge that there are alternatives to putting them in the rulebook. We can put them on a nice, simple reference card the size of an index card (or an army card if we wanted) and players can easily keep them nearby. Furthermore, I still say that putting them on the markers (http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg226/WarlordAlpha/Burntokenv3.png) themselves is the best option.

You guys, these status effects are just going to be so common that we can't keep putting them on the cards. Putting them on the markers, on a reference card, AND in the rulebook is all right in the situation. They are too common to keep putting them on the cards. Some of you guys mentioned giving Gastly curse. I would be fine with keeping that on the card, as that isn't all that common. Maybe only two or three Pokemon will end up with that move. Same for Destiny Bond if we decide to use a marker for that power.

But effects like paralyzed, burned, frozen, poisoned, asleep, and confused are incredibly common. Chances are, one of them will be on almost every single card we make. That is common enough to warrant taking it off of the cards.



Also, Wulf, admit right now that this debate isn't about Classic Heroscape compatibility. All of your points against me were about usability. None of this breaks compatibility.

edit: What further explanation I want is how this breaks compatibility. That was the entire reason we did this whole "on the card" thing before and now we are shooting ourselves in the foot. If you can't tell me why it breaks compatibility then I demand this be overturned.

edit #2: THAT WAS A COMMUNITY VOTE?!?!? For that reason alone it should not even count! They sure as hell didn't read over all the pages of discussion to make an informed decision! Reading over your little pros and cons list, they were incredibly biased in favor of putting everything on the card.

[Kroz]

While I agree with you WA, keep your tone a bit more civil.

My argument for putting them on a separate card like the glyph cards is because this would not break compatibility because it's already been done. We know that this has been done before and that it would save us lots of room on cards. One of your arguments against this is that you don't want your kids looking it up in the rulebook every ten seconds. You're right. I wouldn't want to be doing that either. But having a card exactly like the glyph cards would allow you to have it right in front of you. Your kids get to have it on a card right in front of them, and we get more room for powers. I don't see how this breaks compatibility at all. I could see how putting them in the rulebook would be undesirable. Putting them on their own separate card though, I don't see how it would conflict. This wouldn't turn it into warhammer as we have an example in heroscape.

[Kaiyu]

Alright. So we're treating the release of the master set as if it were a release of an set by Hasbro or WotC, right? So we want to make it as official as those sets and use other master set releases as a precedent, right? Well think of the Swarm of the Marro master set. There had to be special rules listed for the Marro Hive. Even though it had a perfectly official Army Card, they made special rules for it in the rule book (like not being able to move through it with Ghost Walk, what to do when its destroyed, and how it can't' be moved by any ability) Heck, even the Rise of the Valkyrie set had a page dedicated to Mimring. There wasn't any special rulings needed, but clarification seemed necessary. I don't have the D&D master set, but I'm pretty sure the explained Uncommon Hero in there (which was unprecedented at the time.) I'm no longer convinced we NEED to have the statuses spelt out on the cards.

[Warlord Alpha]

I don't have the D&D master set, but I'm pretty sure the explained Uncommon Hero in there (which was unprecedented at the time.)

Here (http://www.wizards.com/company/downloads/Heroscape_underdark_rules_EN.pdf)'s the D&D rulebook. It gets spelled out in there.

[Kroz]

If anyone would have tried to make the uncommon hero before MS3, everyone would have jumped on him saying that it was incompatible. I still think that giving them their own cards wouldn't be over the top and it could only help in the end.

[Warlord Alpha]

Here's an example reference card (http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg226/WarlordAlpha/Pokescape/ReferenceCardExample1.png) I just made. It is the exact same size as a standard 3x5 index card, so if you want you could cut it out and glue/tape it to an index card so that it becomes indestructible.

[fiddlerjones]

My main argument against changing the policy has nothing to do with Classic Heroscape compatibility. It has to do with design. Because we're recreating characters from a video game, we all have a tendency to want them to do exactly what they do in-game. That's a mistake. Pokemon is far more complex than Heroscape, as are all the moves contained therein. Keeping the status effects spelled out on the cards acts as a natural deterrent from that temptation.

Just because an ability can cause a status effect in the video game does not mean it necessarily needs to in Heroscape. One of the game's greatest strengths is its elegant simplicity. We should adapt to the system with our designs, not adapt the system to our designs. Not every figure needs to cause a status effect or have a d20 roll in its abilities.

[Kroz]

I see your point FJ, but I can imagine times where we would want more powers on there with the status change as well. We'd have to sacrifice.

[Warlord Alpha]

My main argument against changing the policy has nothing to do with Classic Heroscape compatibility. It has to do with design. Because we're recreating characters from a video game, we all have a tendency to want them to do exactly what they do in-game. That's a mistake. Pokemon is far more complex than Heroscape, as are all the moves contained therein. Keeping the status effects spelled out on the cards acts as a natural deterrent from that temptation.

Just because an ability can cause a status effect in the video game does not mean it necessarily needs to in Heroscape. One of the game's greatest strengths is its elegant simplicity. We should adapt to the system with our designs, not adapt the system to our designs. Not every figure needs to cause a status effect or have a d20 roll in its abilities.


That's a good point. The only thing I can counter this with is Pikachu - would adding Paralysis to its Thundershock really over-complicate the card?

[fiddlerjones]

That's a good point. The only thing I can counter this with is Pikachu - would adding Paralysis to its Thundershock really over-complicate the card?

Yes.

[Warlord Alpha]

That's a good point. The only thing I can counter this with is Pikachu - would adding Paralysis to its Thundershock really over-complicate the card?

Yes.

Fair enough, everyone has their own threshold.

Are you more worried about us starting to create crazy complicated powers, or are you worried about us trying to cram more powers, even if they are simple, onto the card? For example, with Magneton, right now I have to make a choice between Tri-Attack, or Lock-On + an electric type attack. If we were to put the status effects in the rulebook, it might be possible for me to fit all 3, plus levitate, on the card.

[White Knight]

Personal Preference
The whole reason we went to a vote was because we were divided on the issue. WA and FJ both have valid points. An index card could very well work. On the other hand, we don't have to have non-card rules to make this stuff work.

I think this is all a personal preference thing. We took a vote. Now that we're into design, WA is suggeting that the decision is more restrictive than we thought.

Overturning Decisions
I suggest a simple 2/3 majority to overturn a previous vote. Maybe 3 people need to call for a revote before we even consider it.

I don't like re-hashing old decisions, but every now and then (under the right circumstances, such as new information) I think decisions might need to come under review. If we find in the future that Paralysis or Sleep or something causes problems, we might need to re-vote on some Pokemon to fix them. Let's get the mechanism in place.

[fiddlerjones]

That's a good point. The only thing I can counter this with is Pikachu - would adding Paralysis to its Thundershock really over-complicate the card?

Yes.

Fair enough, everyone has their own threshold.

Are you more worried about us starting to create crazy complicated powers, or are you worried about us trying to cram more powers, even if they are simple, onto the card? For example, with Magneton, right now I have to make a choice between Tri-Attack, or Lock-On + an electric type attack. If we were to put the status effects in the rulebook, it might be possible for me to fit all 3, plus levitate, on the card.

Both, actually. Most units only need one, MAYBE two "interesting" abilities maximum, otherwise those abilities get lost in the jumble. I don't want to see a magneton with tri-attack, lock-on, levitate, AND thunderbolt or whatever. Units need focus to succeed, though it's tempting to want to cram a bunch of cool stuff in.

[Warlord Alpha]

Both, actually. Most units only need one, MAYBE two "interesting" abilities maximum, otherwise those abilities get lost in the jumble. I don't want to see a magneton with tri-attack, lock-on, levitate, AND thunderbolt or whatever. Units need focus to succeed, though it's tempting to want to cram a bunch of cool stuff in.

Pokemon like Charmander and Sandshrew should definitely only have one or two abilities. If Jwind posts Bulbasaur and it has like 3 different attacks then I am going make sure that it gets voted down. But what about Pokemon like Mewtwo or Dragonite? They have massive, unbelievable movepools. I envision them as a big, powerful toolboxes.

Making the evolved form a more powerful version of the basic form is fine (think White Wyrmling -> Nilfheim; same thing, just stronger), but I feel like another really cool way to differentiate between each evolutionary stage would be an increase in the number of abilities or attacks. I'm not talking like Blastoise would end up with five or anything. Maybe Blastoise would have two, whereas Squirtle only has one. Maybe Dragonite and Mewtwo would have three, as they are really powerful and have that big movepool to exploit.

But see what the problem is? Even if we wanted to, in a lot of cases we wouldn't be able to do really cool things like that because the status effect prevents us from putting more than one attack and one, maybe two abilities on the card. Like with Magneton, I was considering adding that second attack. You don't like that, and you are free to vote No until there is only one attack on the card. But it will never come to that, because I don't have that option. I want to have that option to put more than one status-inflicting attack on the card. And even if I don't take advantage of that with Magneton, maybe I will with Dragonite, or maybe somebody will with a 3rd stage bug Pokemon.

[mac122]

If we change the way we handle status effects and not spell them out on the card then we also need to go back further and remove the part about being compatible with Classic Heroscape. The abilities are spelled out on the card in classic. Yes, there is a clarification and further explanation of Mimring's ability. But the ability itself is spelled out on the card. The rulebook allowed them to elaborate and show examples. If we are to be compatible, then we must spell them out. If they are only in a rulebook or on a reference card then we are creating PokeScape, a game system based on Heroscape.
IMO, keep them on the card.

[Warlord Alpha]

If we change the way we handle status effects and not spell them out on the card then we also need to go back further and remove the part about being compatible with Classic Heroscape. The abilities are spelled out on the card in classic. Yes, there is a clarification and further explanation of Mimring's ability. But the ability itself is spelled out on the card. The rulebook allowed them to elaborate and show examples. If we are to be compatible, then we must spell them out. If they are only in a rulebook or on a reference card then we are creating PokeScape, a game system based on Heroscape.

How many times do I have to say this. IT DOES NOT BREAK CLASSIC HEROSCAPE COMPATIBILITY. We are not changing game mechanics - we are not changing the unit pricing structure - we are putting details of an incredibly common ability somewhere other than on the unit's card!

Do you actually know what it means to break that compatibility? That means that these units absolutely 100% cannot be used with Classic Heroscape. You are telling me that that is what will happen if we put the status effects in the rulebook.

[fiddlerjones]

That's the challenge with powerful pokemon like that. We have to pare down their glut of strong and cool moves into a couple special abilities. And make no mistake, it's possible to make a powerful ability without a wall of text supporting it. We can give Dragonite or Mewtwo three powerful abilities, sure, but only maybe one of them should be complex at all. For example:

Hyper Beam Special Attack
Range 6, Attack 8.
Remove all order markers from Dragonite. You may not place order markers on Dragonite next round.

Simple and powerful. But it's only like three lines of text. I was in favor of more simplified status effects, which would've allowed more on the card. We voted for more complex ones, and as a consequence, we're limited to how many we can include. Personally, I think we should use them sparingly, as slapping three status effects on a pokemon is much less interesting than coming up with a new and creative ability.

[Warlord Alpha]

That's the challenge with powerful pokemon like that. We have to pare down their glut of strong and cool moves into a couple special abilities. And make no mistake, it's possible to make a powerful ability without a wall of text supporting it. We can give Dragonite or Mewtwo three powerful abilities, sure, but only maybe one of them should be complex at all. For example:

Hyper Beam Special Attack
Range 6, Attack 8.
Remove all order markers from Dragonite. You may not place order markers on Dragonite next round.

Simple and powerful. But it's only like three lines of text. I was in favor of more simplified status effects, which would've allowed more on the card. We voted for more complex ones, and as a consequence, we're limited to how many we can include. Personally, I think we should use them sparingly, as slapping three status effects on a pokemon is much less interesting than coming up with a new and creative ability.

Attacks like that Hyper Beam example are exactly what I was thinking. I'm also giving thought to including Thunderbolt, but I don't think I will be able to do that, because I not only have to fit Thunderbolt's paralysis description on there, but I also have to fit Flying and at least one more attack, maybe 2. I would only be able to fit Thunderbolt and Flying because the Paralysis description takes up so much space.

The problem isn't that we can't slap 3 status effects on there. I can't even think of a Pokemon where they would get 3 status inflicting attacks or abilities. The problem is that sometimes we can't even put ONE on there, like with Pikachu or a hypothetical Dragonite. The fact that with some Pokemon we can't even fit ONE status on there shows that we have a serious problem.

[fiddlerjones]

I disagree. Just because Thunderbolt inflicts paralysis in the video games doesn't mean it needs to in Pokescape. In fact, having it not inflict paralysis and rather do something different would help to make it more than just "better Thundershock." Not every pokemon needs to be able to inflict a status. In fact, I'm going to go out on a limb and say most pokemon shouldn't inflict statuses.

[White Noise]

The problem isn't that we can't slap 3 status effects on there. I can't even think of a Pokemon where they would get 3 status inflicting attacks or abilities.
Just to clarify, in the games Tri Attack has a chance of inflicting Burn, Freezing, or Paralysis. So Pokemon like Dodrio, Magneton, Porygon Z, etc. could potentially have a problem there.

I think another thing that needs to be adressed that came up earlier is competitive moves vs. thematic ones. Gengar Thunderbolting things doesn't make sense thematically, but it is common in more competitive play. I almost wonder if perhaps, for the more competitive side of things (and this would be looking farther into the future, certainly), we could make "Smogon (or some other name)'s Blank" sort of cards, with competitive movesets adapted to 'Scape. They'd all be final evo's, with perhaps better stats in certain areas reflecting EV training and whatnot, but at a higher point cost.

EDIT: We'd probably want to make the competitive ones unique, too, because of the species clause.

I'm also wondering if we could make the sleep status just a simple removal of order markers. The only problem you'd have would be there'd be no way to implement the ability Early Bird, but not many Pokemon get that ability and the ones that do have more interesting things at their disposal anyway.

[Kroz]

There are other moves like rest, dream eater and such. I guess for dream eater you could make it so that it does more damage to units that don't have an order marker. Giving two special attacks to one pokemon I am strongly against though.

[fiddlerjones]

I was pushing for simple order marker removal for sleep for awhile. It saves space and allows you to have Hypnosis AND Dream Eater on Gengar. Good idea with the "more damage to units with no order markers" thing. That's kind of what I meant by simpler status effects, like poison just being a die roll extra wound kind of thing.

[White Noise]

There are other moves like rest, dream eater and such. I guess for dream eater you could make it so that it does more damage to units that don't have an order marker. Giving two special attacks to one pokemon I am strongly against though.
Oh... hadn't thought about that. I suppose that might work.

In most cases, yeah, two special attacks would be bad, as you wouldn't end up with a lot of variety. To fix this, some moves can be worked out to be something other than special attacks (Fake Out could work like Engagement Strike, since that's basically what it ends up being in the games). I could see two specials working on a few Pokemon, though, like Rhyperior. Rock Blast for a Queglix type attack, then Rock Wrecker as a really powerful attack at the cost of removing your order markers. You'd end up with something like Major Q-10.

Also, if we have different ideas of what a Pokemon should be able to do, we might be able to push some of those onto evo's. For example, we could give Magneton Tri Attack and Magnezone Lock On and Zap Cannon.(Then, of course, with Rhyperior like that, Rhydon would be free to get Horn Drill as a d20 insta-kill and some special attack - maybe Megahorn?). Another Edit: Lava Resistant. Why didn't I think of that earlier?

Edit: Another slightly related question: should our first target be 151 (all the Pokemon in the original games) or 172 (all the Pokemon in the first games and their (pre)evo's that were added in later games)? I would imagine that what you want to do with Pokemon like Blissey or Rhyperior would have some impact on what you end up doing with Chansey and Rhydon. Just a thought.

[fiddlerjones]

As far as I'm concerned, it's ok to have more than one special attack on a pokemon, but no more than one complex special attack. If one of them is the hyper beam example from before, the other one can be more complicated (but then you probably won't want any other abilities on top of that).

I'm definitely in favor of putting different moves on different evolutions. When I make Wartortle, it probably won't have Water Gun or a similar move, and it'll probably fill a very different role from Squirtle. I want to see different evolutions that are all playable together, not just have each later evolution be a better form of the previous, so good thinking with the Magneton-Magnezone differentiation and such.

[BiggaBullfrog]

I disagree. Just because Thunderbolt inflicts paralysis in the video games doesn't mean it needs to in Pokescape. In fact, having it not inflict paralysis and rather do something different would help to make it more than just "better Thundershock." Not every pokemon needs to be able to inflict a status. In fact, I'm going to go out on a limb and say most pokemon shouldn't inflict statuses.
Agreed. Like our Pikachu, not all electric attacks need to inflict paralysis, just as not all fire attacks need to be able to inflict burn, etc. A lot of powerful Pokemon that use powerful attacks (Charizard with Fire Blast, for example) aren't using those attacks for their chance to inflict a status, as that's usually too low of a chance to be consistent, and is more of an added bonus. Instead, they use the attacks because they can inflict mega damage with them. In Pokescape, all we need is the damage, and maybe a little something extra to make it a special attack (as with Fire Blast, instead of being able to inflict a burn, make it able to hit adjacent figures as well, like Othkurik's Acid Spray). Even though it's not 100% with the games, it works great with Heroscape, and I think will work great for Pokescape too.

[Kaiyu]

I'm definitely in favor of putting different moves on different evolutions. When I make Wartortle, it probably won't have Water Gun or a similar move, and it'll probably fill a very different role from Squirtle. I want to see different evolutions that are all playable together, not just have each later evolution be a better form of the previous....

I'm in favor or pushing that NO power is repeated on higher evolutions. Why? Simple. What would you gain from evolving? If we keep each evolution radically different, then any custom game mode that allows for evolution will mean that the evolution will grant whole new abilities. I don't want to evolve from Pikachu to Riachu if it means I'll lose Agility, Double Team, and Pikachu's Quick Release. But there is no way we're going to fit those 3 abilities, Climb x2 AND a new ability or two on Riachu. So give Riachu Thunder (maybe an AOE attack), or something else that's differnet from Pikachu, so you gain an ability that makes you more versatile and stronger, not just different.

[White Noise]

I'm in favor or pushing that NO power is repeated on higher evolutions. Why? Simple. What would you gain from evolving? If we keep each evolution radically different, then any custom game mode that allows for evolution will mean that the evolution will grant whole new abilities. I don't want to evolve from Pikachu to Riachu if it means I'll lose Agility, Double Team, and Pikachu's Quick Release. But there is no way we're going to fit those 3 abilities, Climb x2 AND a new ability or two on Riachu. So give Riachu Thunder (maybe an AOE attack), or something else that's differnet from Pikachu, so you gain an ability that makes you more versatile and stronger, not just different.
But what about Pokemon like Magnemite, where its evos should also have Levitate? Don't get me wrong, I agree with you for the most part, but there are a few non-attack abilities that should carry over, IMO.

[Warlord Alpha]

Stuff like fly, etc. are a given. Dratini/Dragonair will both have Shed Skin, for example.

[Kroz]

Yeah. I suppose if you had hyper beam and another one that would be ok. I just don't see putting thunderbolt (or anything like that) on magneton AND tri-attack. I think that Dodrio should get tri-beam personally.

I liked your idea though White Noise for removing OM's for sleep. Think about haunter being the pokemon with dream eater. He would be a pokemon that would be the sleeper hunter. (now if we could just give him synergy or some kind of bonding with dund!) That would make his role completely different from gastly's. Then you could make Gengar the big guns for his line.

[fiddlerjones]

Agreed, WA. It should be general practice that we don't repeat special attacks or powers on different evolutions of Pokemon, but there will be exceptions. For example, Wartortle will still have Aquatic and possibly Withdraw like Squirtle.

[Kaiyu]

I'm in favor or pushing that NO power is repeated on higher evolutions. Why? Simple. What would you gain from evolving? If we keep each evolution radically different, then any custom game mode that allows for evolution will mean that the evolution will grant whole new abilities. I don't want to evolve from Pikachu to Riachu if it means I'll lose Agility, Double Team, and Pikachu's Quick Release. But there is no way we're going to fit those 3 abilities, Climb x2 AND a new ability or two on Riachu. So give Riachu Thunder (maybe an AOE attack), or something else that's differnet from Pikachu, so you gain an ability that makes you more versatile and stronger, not just different.
But what about Pokemon like Magnemite, where its evos should also have Levitate? Don't get me wrong, I agree with you for the most part, but there are a few non-attack abilities that should carry over, IMO.

Agreed, WA. It should be general practice that we don't repeat special attacks or powers on different evolutions of Pokemon, but there will be exceptions. For example, Wartortle will still have Aquatic and possibly Withdraw like Squirtle.

Notice I didn't mention Climb x2 as something that would be exclusive to Pikachu. I was hoping you guys would be sharp enough to assume that passive abilities like Climb, Levitate, and Aquatic would carry over. You guys are so jumpy some times :roll:

[Warlord Alpha]

All right, so....who's ready to vote YES to putting the status effects in the rulebook?

[Kaiyu]

All right, so....who's ready to vote YES to putting the status effects in the rulebook?

1) I'm not 100% sure we can vote on this thread.
2) We have to be able to appeal an older vote before we vote again.

So first, we should vote on a process on how to appeal previous votes.

[fiddlerjones]

I'm thinking we need more than just one person calling for a re-vote before we can vote again on an issue. Once something's been debated and voted on, for the most part it should stay that way. With enough demand, we can have a re-vote, but mine will remain No to taking status effects off the cards and putting them in the rulebook.

[Warlord Alpha]

All right, so....who's ready to vote YES to putting the status effects in the rulebook?

1) I'm not 100% sure we can vote on this thread.
2) We have to be able to appeal an older vote before we vote again.

So first, we should vote on a process on how to appeal previous votes.

I wasn't actually calling a vote, I was just trying to get the discussion back on track. I really, really want this to change though. I don't care if we don't put statuses on every card. I don't care if nothing changes about what we have done so far. I just want these options to be available to us in the future.

[fiddlerjones]

The problem with having the option available to easily overcomplicate a card is that more people will do it.

[Warlord Alpha]

The problem with having the option available to easily overcomplicate a card is that more people will do it.

Do you think that there are more people who will let an overcomplicated card slide rather than vote it down?

[wulfhunter667]

All right, so....who's ready to vote YES to putting the status effects in the rulebook?

1) I'm not 100% sure we can vote on this thread.
2) We have to be able to appeal an older vote before we vote again.

So first, we should vote on a process on how to appeal previous votes.

I wasn't actually calling a vote, I was just trying to get the discussion back on track. I really, really want this to change though. I don't care if we don't put statuses on every card. I don't care if nothing changes about what we have done so far. I just want these options to be available to us in the future.
I think we have debated and talked about this enough. WA, it's not going to change, no matter how badly you want it too. It has been voted on once and will not be voted on again.

On any matter that has nothing to do with a card in creation or playtesting, only the Group Moderator may call for a vote.
You've had your time to try to reconvince people you are right and from what I am seeing, it's not happening. You want a revote though? Fine. If 8 Trainers or Junior Trainers pm me directly and call for a revote, then we will have a revote. Otherwise, consider this issue resolved. As it is, you have already derailed this thread from the first topic with this discussion. As a reminder, the topic for this thread is...
Welcome! For our first topic of interest:

In an effort to get a better picture of what the future holds for Project Pokemon, I'd like to begin giving all 151 Pokemon an overview. The simple way to say it, we're going to be looking over all 151 Pokemon, and listing all their relevant moves to Poke'scape. So moves that seem out of place, like Sandshrew's Poison Sting can be left out. The point of this is to get some insight on all of our Pokemon when we look at them as a whole, and nothing more. It is not a pre-destined list or really determines anything, but it will create a quick reference for design as well as place all of our ducks in a row. We'll be able to quickly see which Pokemon and which moves will see a lot of overlap, which can give us a heads up to avoid trouble. It will also reveal which moves will see no overlap, so we can assign those moves with ease. To make this task less overwhelming, it will be taken in chunks. We'll start with one Type and work from there. Remember, there's no reason to get too official or bureaucratic about it this. Shall we start with Ghost Type Pokemon since its smaller and relevant to Ghastly's discussion?

Pure Ghost-type Pokémon
# ↓ Name ↓
200 Misdreavus

Half Ghost-type Pokémon

Primary Ghost-type Pokémon
# ↓ Name ↓ Type 1 ↓ Type 2 ↓
092 Gastly Ghost Poison
093 Haunter Ghost Poison
094 Gengar Ghost Poison

[fiddlerjones]

I'm with you on the re-vote, Wulf, but this is a brainstorming thread, where people can throw out ideas and discuss them. Having one set topic seems to go against the spirit of the thread. That said, we probably should drop the subject of special abilities on cards. It's been settled.

[Kaiyu]

Ghastly: Lick, Nightshade, Hypnosis, Curse, Confuse Ray, Destiny Bond
Haunter: Lick, Nightshade, Hypnosis, Curse, Confuse Ray, Destiny Bond, Dream Eater, Nightmare
Gengar: Hypnosis, Curse, Confuse Ray, Destiny Bond, Dream Eater, Nightmare, Shadow Ball

Misdreavus: Psywave, Astonish, Confuse Ray, Pain Split, Perish Song, Grudge

A couple of TM moves that Gengar usually is taught in the competitive environment are : Thunderbolt and Focus blast. I'm not too sure how good of type coverage we want to give our pokemon but I am under the impression that the final forms should have moves as a competitive trainer would teach them. That would mean special attacks that aren't just the pokemon's type.

These were the last two relevant posts. I can confidently say that we shouldn't put moves on the cards that aren't naturally learned. We can accumulate TM possibilities for the campaign when we get there.

[wulfhunter667]

I'm with you on the re-vote, Wulf, but this is a brainstorming thread, where people can throw out ideas and discuss them. Having one set topic seems to go against the spirit of the thread. That said, we probably should drop the subject of special abilities on cards. It's been settled.
So we're clear on this, I am not saying we have to only have one topic in this thread. What I am saying is, until I see concrete evidence that enough of this group wants to revote, the matter has been discussed and rediscussed enough. It's time to focus on the topic at hand.

[Warlord Alpha]

No, it hasn't been settled. We are hurting ourselves here and not enough people see it.

At this point the only argument still standing is fiddlerjones', that this is going to make designers more prone to over-complicating the cards. While this is a legitimate concern, I believe that those of us with voting power will be able to acknowledge that a card is overcomplicated and vote it down. There are tons of us here, only one of us has to say "hey, this is looking a little crazy here, why don't we tone this down a little bit?" and everyone else will see what that person is talking about. I can see somebody coming along and creating a card with just a ton of crazy powers, but I believe that we will be able to catch it.


Putting the status effects in the rulebook, on the card, AND on the marker itself is just so much better than putting it all on every. single. card with a status effect. It is cluttering up the cards and it doesn't need to be there.


Also on a different note; Wulf, you seem to be abusing your SELF-APPOINTED "group moderator" status. Clearly, myself and a couple other people here would like to see the status effects standardized and put in the rulebook, and the only reason you don't want to call a re-vote is because you don't agree with me. Your combination of "only the group moderator can call votes" and "haha suckers, I'm the only group moderator" allows you to control things like this, and I don't like that one bit. You said this was a group project, but you are using that self appointed power to just say "no, what I say goes." Your condition that 8 people PM you directly is ridiculous - I'm pretty sure that we don't even have 8 people with voting power actively reading this at the moment! (edit: I just counted and only 7 different people with voting power have posted in the last 3 pages)

I think that just the 2 or 3 people who have voiced their opinion with me here should be enough of a reason to call a re-vote. Maybe if I was the only voice speaking out against this you might be right to just cast me aside, but 2 or 3 other people have said they want to see these in the rulebook.

[Kaiyu]

No, it hasn't been settled. We are hurting ourselves here and not enough people see it.

At this point the only argument still standing is fiddlerjones', that this is going to make designers more prone to over-complicating the cards. While this is a legitimate concern, I believe that those of us with voting power will be able to acknowledge that a card is overcomplicated and vote it down. There are tons of us here, only one of us has to say "hey, this is looking a little crazy here, why don't we tone this down a little bit?" and everyone else will see what that person is talking about. I can see somebody coming along and creating a card with just a ton of crazy powers, but I believe that we will be able to catch it.


Putting the status effects in the rulebook, on the card, AND on the marker itself is just so much better than putting it all on every. single. card with a status effect. It is cluttering up the cards and it doesn't need to be there.


Also on a different note; Wulf, you seem to be abusing your SELF-APPOINTED "group moderator" status. Clearly, myself and a couple other people here would like to see the status effects standardized and put in the rulebook, and the only reason you don't want to call a re-vote is because you don't agree with me. Your combination of "only the group moderator can call votes" and "haha suckers, I'm the only group moderator" allows you to control things like this, and I don't like that one bit. You said this was a group project, but you are using that self appointed power to just say "no, what I say goes." Your condition that 8 people PM you directly is ridiculous - I'm pretty sure that we don't even have 8 people with voting power actively reading this at the moment! (edit: I just counted and only 7 different people with voting power have posted in the last 3 pages)

I think that just the 2 or 3 people who have voiced their opinion with me here should be enough of a reason to call a re-vote. Maybe if I was the only voice speaking out against this you might be right to just cast me aside, but 2 or 3 other people have said they want to see these in the rulebook.

Everyone knows how much of an advocate of planning ahead I am. This issue of status conditions is just another example of what could go wrong if we don't prepare ourselves. Those who are for keeping status marker effects on the card only, what do you intend to do if we come across a Pokemon design and the wording on all the powers doesn't fit? I don't think we can let this issue slide by unless we have a plan for if this happens. Saying that keeping the power off the cards is a deterrent isn't going to stop it from happening. So what will we do when (not if) it happens? Because we can't wait till it happens to find out.

[wulfhunter667]

No, it hasn't been settled. We are hurting ourselves here and not enough people see it.

At this point the only argument still standing is fiddlerjones', that this is going to make designers more prone to over-complicating the cards. While this is a legitimate concern, I believe that those of us with voting power will be able to acknowledge that a card is overcomplicated and vote it down. There are tons of us here, only one of us has to say "hey, this is looking a little crazy here, why don't we tone this down a little bit?" and everyone else will see what that person is talking about. I can see somebody coming along and creating a card with just a ton of crazy powers, but I believe that we will be able to catch it.


Putting the status effects in the rulebook, on the card, AND on the marker itself is just so much better than putting it all on every. single. card with a status effect. It is cluttering up the cards and it doesn't need to be there.


Also on a different note; Wulf, you seem to be abusing your SELF-APPOINTED "group moderator" status. Clearly, myself and a couple other people here would like to see the status effects standardized and put in the rulebook, and the only reason you don't want to call a re-vote is because you don't agree with me. Your combination of "only the group moderator can call votes" and "haha suckers, I'm the only group moderator" allows you to control things like this, and I don't like that one bit. You said this was a group project, but you are using that self appointed power to just say "no, what I say goes." Your condition that 8 people PM you directly is ridiculous - I'm pretty sure that we don't even have 8 people with voting power actively reading this at the moment! (edit: I just counted and only 7 different people with voting power have posted in the last 3 pages)

I think that just the 3 or 4 people who have voiced their opinion with me here should be enough of a reason to call a re-vote. Maybe if I was the only voice speaking out against this you might be right to just cast me aside, but 3 or 4 other people have said they want to see these in the rulebook.
I expected as much. This is simple. I am the only one who can call for a vote not directly tied to a card or playtesting. You agreed to that when we started this. The requirement for 8 people to pm me is not unreasonable. Currently, there are 15 people with the ability to vote, therefore, 8 would be a simple majority. That, too, is in the rules of this Project. As I have said before, I appreciate all of the comments, suggestions and ideas that each and every one of you has contributed. But honestly, this discussion has run it's course and we need to be focused on the Project itself, the cards in design, playtest and finalization. I promise you WA, if you get a simple majority who want to revote, this issue will be addressed again. If not, and until then, please, try to focus on what we are doing. Finally, this is not about me disagreeing with you specifically WA, so please, stop taking this so personally. The decision was made quite some time ago and unless I see a need for it to be changed, other than just a handful of people agreeing with you, it will not be changed.

[fiddlerjones]

A couple of points:

1) WA, I haven't heard anyone else say definitively that they want a re-vote of the current special ability policy. If there's significant interest, I'd support you in returning to the issue, but I'd still vote against putting statuses in the rulebook. That said, I don't think we need to dig up old business that a few people don't agree with over and over. It sets a bad precedent.

2) I don't want to say we should never include TM moves on pokemon, but theme is definitely to be emphasized over the "optimal moves." We should leave the option open to use those abilities, especially the ones that can only be learned from TMs and HMs. I really like the idea of "Brock's Onix" or "Misty's Starmie" as well, which would likely have more competitive moves.

[Warlord Alpha]

Fine. Can everybody PM Wulf, then? Even if you disagree with me? As Kaiyu said, this is about planning for the future - so far, the fallout from putting status effects on the cards has been minimal. But I can guarantee that at some point in the future, there is going to be a Pokemon, or two, or three, that comes along and we are going to wonder why we never bothered to put the status effects in the rulebook. I don't want it to be too late then, which is why I want this changed now. Even if it doesn't get changed, I would at least like for this to come to a vote. That way it doesn't feel like I lost by default here.

[Warlord Alpha]

2) I don't want to say we should never include TM moves on pokemon, but theme is definitely to be emphasized over the "optimal moves." We should leave the option open to use those abilities, especially the ones that can only be learned from TMs and HMs. I really like the idea of "Brock's Onix" or "Misty's Starmie" as well, which would likely have more competitive moves.

I liked White Noise's idea (can't remember if he posted it on this thread or not), which is to go back at some point in the future and make like "Smogon's (whatever Pokemon)" and such, just as we would with say "Ash's Pikachu" or something.

[fiddlerjones]

For the record, I don't actually want to see a re-vote, but if enough people want to, then I'll support it.

[White Knight]

Ghastly: Lick, Nightshade, Hypnosis, Curse, Confuse Ray, Destiny Bond
Haunter: Lick, Nightshade, Hypnosis, Curse, Confuse Ray, Destiny Bond, Dream Eater, Nightmare
Gengar: Hypnosis, Curse, Confuse Ray, Destiny Bond, Dream Eater, Nightmare, Shadow Ball

Misdreavus: Psywave, Astonish, Confuse Ray, Pain Split, Perish Song, Grudge

A couple of TM moves that Gengar usually is taught in the competitive environment are : Thunderbolt and Focus blast. I'm not too sure how good of type coverage we want to give our pokemon but I am under the impression that the final forms should have moves as a competitive trainer would teach them. That would mean special attacks that aren't just the pokemon's type.

These were the last two relevant posts. I can confidently say that we shouldn't put moves on the cards that aren't naturally learned. We can accumulate TM possibilities for the campaign when we get there.

Adding to the above quotes, I looked up the Trading cards moves for Gastly, Haunter, and Gengar. We might not use them, but as I was going through them I thought up some pretty cool Heroscape ideas:

Gastly (TCG)
Sleeping Gas (sleep)
Destiny Bond (if Gastly is out, the other Pokemon is out too)
Lick (10 damage and paralysis)
Lick (just paralysis)
Energy Conversion (regain energy cards from discard pile)
Nightmare (10 damage and sleep)
Bad Dream (asleep or confused)
Haunt (10 damage, no W/R/I)
Slow Trip Gas (confusion)
Smog (poison)
Pain Payback (10 damage from Gastly to opponent)
Pitch Dark (your opponent can’t play trainer cards)
Trick Gas (switch Gastly with another of your Pokemon)
Gnaw (10 damage)
Suffocating Gas (20 damage)
Night Shade (10 damage to a benched Pokemon)

Haunter (TCG)
Hypnosis (sleep)
Dream Eater (50 damage, only if opponent is asleep)
Dream Eater (60 damage, only if opponent is asleep)
Nightmare (10 damage and sleep)
Nightmare (20 damage and sleep)
Transparency Pokemon Power (50% chance to prevent damage)
Confuse Ray (10 damage and confusion)
Confuse Ray (20 damage and confusion)
Shadow Hand (discard 2 cards and draw 2 cards)
Head Trip Pokemon Power (remove status markers from friendly Pokemon but confuse them)
Time Spiral (devolve an opponent’s Pokemon)
Haunt (20 damage, no W/R/I)
Smog (poison)
Hookwink (give opponent back discarded Stadium, Trainer, and Supporter cards)
Hidden Poison (poison opponent if Haunter is damaged)
Tongue Spring (20 damage, no W/R/I)
Psyshot (10 damage)
Shadow Bind (opponent can’t retreat)

Gengar (TCG)
Curse Pokemon Power (move 10 damage from one of opponent’s Pokemon to another)
Dark Mind (30 damage and 10 damage to another of your opponent’s Pokemon)
Chaos Move Pokemon Power (move 10 damage from your Pokemon to your opponent’s Pokemon)
Hide in Shadows (40 damage and switch Gengar with another Pokemon)
Manipulate Pokemon Power (bring back destroyed Pokemon and energy cards)
Hydrokinesis (40 damage and burn or confuse)
Shadow Curse Pokemon Power (if Gengar would be knocked out by the amount of damage done by an opponent, put 3 damage counters on 1 of your opponent’s Pokemon)
Cursed Reaction (20 damage, no W/R/I)
Super Psy Bolt (60 damage)
Life Drain (put damage on opponent’s Pokemon until it has only 10 HP left)
Shadow Dance (40 damage, no W/R/I, switch Gengar with one of your Pokemon)
Fainting Spell Pokemon Power (if Gengar would be knocked out from an attack, flip a coin—on heads, your opponent’s Pokemon is knocked out)
Shadow Room (30 damage, no W/R/I, 60 damage to Pokemon with PokePowers)
Poltergeist (30 damage x number of Trainer, Supporter, Stadium cards in opponent’s hand)
Shadow Skip (60 damage, 10 damage to another of your opponent’s Pokemon, Gengar may switch with another Pokemon)
Sharpshooting (40 damage to any Pokemon, no W/R/I)
Poison Jab (60 damage and poisoned)

I think the following would be cool for Heroscape:
Shadow Bind--figures adjacent to Haunter must roll 15+ on d20 to disengage.
Curse Pokemon Power--before moving and attacking, player controlling Gengar can remove a damage counter from one of your opponent's army cards and either place it on one of your opponent's hero cards or destroy 1 of your opponent's squad figures.
Dark Mind--If Gengar inflicts at least 1 wound with Dark Mind, choose another of your opponent's figures and roll 1 unblockable attack die against that figure.

[NightSwipe]

Shadow Bind/Curse/Dark Mind look pretty cool for Haunter/Gengar, respectively. As much as I don't like the TCG, they do have good ideas, sometimes....:?

I agree with possibly redoing a few cards to make them Smogon competitive.

[Kaiyu]

Ghastly: Lick, Nightshade, Hypnosis, Curse, Confuse Ray, Destiny Bond
Haunter: Lick, Nightshade, Hypnosis, Curse, Confuse Ray, Destiny Bond, Dream Eater, Nightmare
Gengar: Hypnosis, Curse, Confuse Ray, Destiny Bond, Dream Eater, Nightmare, Shadow Ball

Misdreavus: Psywave, Astonish, Confuse Ray, Pain Split, Perish Song, Grudge

A couple of TM moves that Gengar usually is taught in the competitive environment are : Thunderbolt and Focus blast. I'm not too sure how good of type coverage we want to give our pokemon but I am under the impression that the final forms should have moves as a competitive trainer would teach them. That would mean special attacks that aren't just the pokemon's type.

These were the last two relevant posts. I can confidently say that we shouldn't put moves on the cards that aren't naturally learned. We can accumulate TM possibilities for the campaign when we get there.

Adding to the above quotes, I looked up the Trading cards moves for Gastly, Haunter, and Gengar. We might not use them, but as I was going through them I thought up some pretty cool Heroscape ideas:

Gastly (TCG)
Sleeping Gas (sleep)
Destiny Bond (if Gastly is out, the other Pokemon is out too)
Lick (10 damage and paralysis)
Lick (just paralysis)
Energy Conversion (regain energy cards from discard pile)
Nightmare (10 damage and sleep)
Bad Dream (asleep or confused)
Haunt (10 damage, no W/R/I)
Slow Trip Gas (confusion)
Smog (poison)
Pain Payback (10 damage from Gastly to opponent)
Pitch Dark (your opponent can’t play trainer cards)
Trick Gas (switch Gastly with another of your Pokemon)
Gnaw (10 damage)
Suffocating Gas (20 damage)
Night Shade (10 damage to a benched Pokemon)
Haunter (TCG)
Hypnosis (sleep)
Dream Eater (50 damage, only if opponent is asleep)
Dream Eater (60 damage, only if opponent is asleep)
Nightmare (10 damage and sleep)
Nightmare (20 damage and sleep)
Transparency Pokemon Power (50% chance to prevent damage)
Confuse Ray (10 damage and confusion)
Confuse Ray (20 damage and confusion)
Shadow Hand (discard 2 cards and draw 2 cards)
Head Trip Pokemon Power (remove status markers from friendly Pokemon but confuse them)
Time Spiral (devolve an opponent’s Pokemon)
Haunt (20 damage, no W/R/I)
Smog (poison)
Hookwink (give opponent back discarded Stadium, Trainer, and Supporter cards)
Hidden Poison (poison opponent if Haunter is damaged)
Tongue Spring (20 damage, no W/R/I)
Psyshot (10 damage)
Shadow Bind (opponent can’t retreat)
Gengar (TCG)
Curse Pokemon Power (move 10 damage from one of opponent’s Pokemon to another)
Dark Mind (30 damage and 10 damage to another of your opponent’s Pokemon)
Chaos Move Pokemon Power (move 10 damage from your Pokemon to your opponent’s Pokemon)
Hide in Shadows (40 damage and switch Gengar with another Pokemon)
Manipulate Pokemon Power (bring back destroyed Pokemon and energy cards)
Hydrokinesis (40 damage and burn or confuse)
Shadow Curse Pokemon Power (if Gengar would be knocked out by the amount of damage done by an opponent, put 3 damage counters on 1 of your opponent’s Pokemon)
Cursed Reaction (20 damage, no W/R/I)
Super Psy Bolt (60 damage)
Life Drain (put damage on opponent’s Pokemon until it has only 10 HP left)
Shadow Dance (40 damage, no W/R/I, switch Gengar with one of your Pokemon)
Fainting Spell Pokemon Power (if Gengar would be knocked out from an attack, flip a coin—on heads, your opponent’s Pokemon is knocked out)
Shadow Room (30 damage, no W/R/I, 60 damage to Pokemon with PokePowers)
Poltergeist (30 damage x number of Trainer, Supporter, Stadium cards in opponent’s hand)
Shadow Skip (60 damage, 10 damage to another of your opponent’s Pokemon, Gengar may switch with another Pokemon)
Sharpshooting (40 damage to any Pokemon, no W/R/I)
Poison Jab (60 damage and poisoned)
I think the following would be cool for Heroscape:
Shadow Bind--figures adjacent to Haunter must roll 15+ on d20 to disengage.
Curse Pokemon Power--before moving and attacking, player controlling Gengar can remove a damage counter from one of your opponent's army cards and either place it on one of your opponent's hero cards or destroy 1 of your opponent's squad figures.
Dark Mind--If Gengar inflicts at least 1 wound with Dark Mind, choose another of your opponent's figures and roll 1 unblockable attack die against that figure.
Wow. Thanks for that extensive list, however I fear it will get lost over time :( We're not really looking to create what powers will do, just to see which ones would fit well with each Pokemon and then be able to easily look at a list of them after we have all 151. Imagine all 151 Pokemon listed off like they way I have the Ghost Pokemon listed above. Besides, since in the TCG all the powers are exclusive, we'd never have to worry about overlap. Honestly we would be making it easier on ourselves if we were to do something like in the TCG for the whole project, and not name any of our special powers after real Pokemon abilities.

White Knight, since your list of moves could help us in the future, would it be beyond your power to keep an archive of all TCG move lists for Pokemon and what they do as we come across them like the ones above? That way when we start design, we could always bring it back up for something to look at and borrow ideas from.

[minimoose38]

So since Night Shade will be Gastly's ghost typed normal attack, I think we should just drop lick off as a power. It is an iconic move for Gastly, but its such a terrible move I don't think it warrants Special attack status. I like the Curse and/or Confuse Ray approach backed by Stealth Flying.

[Kaiyu]

Ghastly: Lick, Night Shade, Hypnosis, Curse, Confuse Ray, Destiny Bond
Haunter: Lick, Night Shade, Hypnosis, Curse, Confuse Ray, Destiny Bond, Dream Eater, Nightmare
Gengar: Hypnosis, Curse, Confuse Ray, Destiny Bond, Dream Eater, Nightmare, Shadow Ball

Misdreavus: Psywave, Astonish, Confuse Ray, Pain Split, Perish Song, GrudgeHere's something else we might consider looking at while brainstorming:

Lick: Ghastly, Haunter, Lickitung
Night Shade: Ghastly, Haunter
Hypnosis: Poliwag, Poliwhirl, Ghastly, Haunter, Gengar, Drowzee, Hypno, Execute, (Hoothoot, Noctowl)
Curse (Ghost Mode): Ghastly, Haunter, Gengar
Curse (Non-Ghost Mode): Slowpoke, Slowbro
Confuse Ray: Zubat, Golbat, Crobat, Ghastly, Haunter, Gengar
Destiny Bond: Ghastly, Haunter, Gengar, Koffing, Weezing, (Wobbuffet)
Dream Eater: Ghastly, Haunter, Gengar
Nightmare: Ghastly, Haunter, Gengar, Hypno
Shadow Ball: Gengar

SEE! Look at that, Hypno learns Nightmare, but not Dream Eater. So when it comes to creating a Hypnosis/Dream Eater type build, we can give Haunter or Gengar the Hypnosis/Dream Eater, and Hypno Hypnosis/Nightmare. Regardless of if the person designing Hypno decides to use Nightmare or not, we at least no that we can give Haunter or Gengar Dream Eater without worrying about messing up someone's future design :)

[NightSwipe]

Actually, Hypno can learn Dream Eater, but as a TM.

http://serebii.net/pokedex-dp/097.shtml

Maybe in a scenario? Or later as a "Smogon" EV'd Pokemon.

[Kaiyu]

Actually, Hypno can learn Dream Eater, but as a TM.

http://serebii.net/pokedex-dp/097.shtml

Maybe in a scenario? Or later as a "Smogon" EV'd Pokemon.
I know that (trust me, I know more about Pokemon than I should) but he doesn't learn it by leveling up. I'm not a fan of giving Pokemon powers they don't learn by leveling up in Pokescape.

[White Knight]

Wow. Thanks for that extensive list, however I fear it will get lost over time :( We're not really looking to create what powers will do, just to see which ones would fit well with each Pokemon and then be able to easily look at a list of them after we have all 151.

I couldn't help myself. ;)

I have them in Word, so I'll keep the list.

[wulfhunter667]

First off, excellent work Kaiyu and WK.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to White Knight again.
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to kaiyu0707 again.

(Darm rep cannon's empty. :()
Anyway, Kaiyu, you might want to keep a spoiler database of the posts like the ones you and WK did on the previous page available in the first post. That would help keep it organized.

[Kaiyu]

Kaiyu, you might want to keep a spoiler database of the posts like the ones you and WK did on the previous page available in the first post. That would help keep it organized.

Done. After organizing the mess of data that I have in my Evolution of a Hero (:tumble:) keeping tack of data for this will be easy.

EDIT: After thinking about it, maybe it would be better to give Hypno Dream Eater over Nightmare, because Nightmare is Ghost Type and Dream Eater is Psychic Type... how messed up is that?

[White Knight]

Since you brought up Hypno, should we move on to the Psychic pokemon?

[Kaiyu]

Since you brought up Hypno, should we move on to the Psychic pokemon?
If you want, you can take Psychic, I'll take Poison. I was thinking poison might help with destiny bond and confuse ray.

[White Knight]

Since you brought up Hypno, should we move on to the Psychic pokemon?
If you want, you can take Psychic, I'll take Poison. I was thinking poison might help with destiny bond and confuse ray.

Deal.

(If anyone else wants in on these, let us know. I don't want to hog all the research.) ;)

[Kaiyu]

Poison Type
Ekens:Wrap, Bite, Glare, Acid (by Breeding: Poison Fang)(by TM: Toxic)
Arbok:Glare, Acid, Crunch (by Breeding: Poison Fang)(by TM: Toxic)

Zubat:Super Sonic, Confuse Ray, Poison Fang (by TM: Toxic)
Golbat:Super Sonic, Confuse Ray, Poison Fang, Wing Attack (by TM: Toxic)
Crobat:Super Sonic, Confuse Ray, Poison Fang, Wing Attack, Cross Poison (by TM: Toxic)

Nidoran (Female):Growl, Poison Sting, Fury Swipes
Nidorina: Growl, Poison Sting, Fury Swipes, Bite, Crunch
Nidoqueen: Body Slam

Nidoran (Male): Leer, Poison Sting, Fury Attack
Nidorino:Leer, Poison Sting, Fury Attack, Horn Attack, Horn Drill
Nidoking: Thrash, (by TM in Generation 1: Fissure)

Grimer: Minimize, Sludge, Sludge Bomb, Acid Armor, Gunk Shot (by TM: Toxic)
Muk:Sludge, Sludge Bomb, Acid Armor, Gunk Shot (by TM: Toxic)

Koffing: Poison Gas, Smog, Smokescreen, Destiny Bond, Selfdestruct
Weezing: Poison Gas, Smog, Smokescreen, Destiny Bond, Explosion

I found myself really cutting down on the moves I gave some of these guys, so speak up if there are other moves you feel are iconic to these Pokemon.

[fiddlerjones]

Just so we're clear, this list is not the moves a pokemon must have right? Just a list of suggestions to help the designers of said pokemon come up with a good moveset?

[minimoose38]

I decided to make a list of Psychic types and their moves, as I will be presenting Abra after Gastly. Hope you don't mind.

Abra- Teleport, Flash(TM), Hidden Power(TM)
Kadabra- Confusion, Psybeam, Recover, Kinesis, Reflect
Alakazam-Psychich, Calm Mind, Future Sight, Kinesis, Recover, Shadow Ball(TM), Focus Blast(TM), Energy Ball(TM)
Drowzee- Hypnosis, Headbutt, Poison Gas, Zen Headbutt
Hypno-Hypnosis, Dream Eater, Nightmare, Zen Headbutt
Mr. Mime- Reflect, Barrier, Light Screen, Psybeam, Magical Leaf, Safe Guard, Trick, Double Slap, Encore

Mewtwo-Psychic, Amnesia, Psycho Cut, Aura Sphere, Recover, Reflect, Flamethrower(TM), Ice Beam(TM), Lots of other TMs
Mew- Transform, Metronome, Aura Sphere, Psychic, Ancient Power, Baton Pass, (every TM)

[White Knight]

Great list.

Drowzee and Hypno can also learn Psychic, Meditate, and Disable.

Mr. Mime can learn Substitute.

[White Knight]

Poison Type
Ekens:Wrap, Bite, Glare, Acid (by Breeding: Poison Fang)(by TM: Toxic)
Arbok:Glare, Acid, Crunch (by Breeding: Poison Fang)(by TM: Toxic)

Zubat:Super Sonic, Confuse Ray, Poison Fang (by TM: Toxic)
Golbat:Super Sonic, Confuse Ray, Poison Fang, Wing Attack (by TM: Toxic)
Crobat:Super Sonic, Confuse Ray, Poison Fang, Wing Attack, Cross Poison (by TM: Toxic)

Nidoran (Female):Growl, Poison Sting, Fury Swipes
Nidorina: Growl, Poison Sting, Fury Swipes, Bite, Crunch
Nidoqueen: Body Slam

Nidoran (Male): Leer, Poison Sting, Fury Attack
Nidorino:Leer, Poison Sting, Fury Attack, Horn Attack, Horn Drill
Nidoking: Thrash, (by TM in Generation 1: Fissure)

Grimer: Minimize, Sludge, Sludge Bomb, Acid Armor, Gunk Shot (by TM: Toxic)
Muk:Sludge, Sludge Bomb, Acid Armor, Gunk Shot (by TM: Toxic)

Koffing: Poison Gas, Smog, Smokescreen, Destiny Bond, Selfdestruct
Weezing: Poison Gas, Smog, Smokescreen, Destiny Bond, Explosion

I found myself really cutting down on the moves I gave some of these guys, so speak up if there are other moves you feel are iconic to these Pokemon.

Koffing and Weezing also learn Sludge as one of their early moves.

Nidoran (Male) learns Horn Attack at level 8.

[Kaiyu]

Just so we're clear, this list is not the moves a pokemon must have right? Just a list of suggestions to help the designers of said pokemon come up with a good moveset?The point of this is to get some insight on all of our Pokemon when we look at them as a whole, and nothing more. It is not a pre-destined list or really determines anything, but it will create a quick reference for design as well as place all of our ducks in a row. We'll be able to quickly see which Pokemon and which moves will see a lot of overlap, which can give us a heads up to avoid trouble. It will also reveal which moves will see no overlap, so we can assign those moves with ease.
You would be correct.
I decided to make a list of Psychic types and their moves, as I will be presenting Abra after Gastly. Hope you don't mind.

Abra- Teleport, Flash(TM), Hidden Power(TM)
Kadabra- Confusion, Psybeam, Recover, Kinesis, Reflect
Alakazam-Psychich, Calm Mind, Future Sight, Kinesis, Recover, Shadow Ball(TM), Focus Blast(TM), Energy Ball(TM)
Drowzee- Hypnosis, Headbutt, Poison Gas, Zen Headbutt
Hypno-Hypnosis, Dream Eater(TM), Nightmare, Zen Headbutt
Mr. Mime- Reflect, Barrier, Light Screen, Confusion, Psybeam, Magical Leaf, Safe Guard, Trick, Double Slap, Encore

Mewtwo-Psychic, Amnesia, Psycho Cut, Aura Sphere, Recover, Reflect, Flamethrower(TM), Ice Beam(TM), Lots of other TMs
Mew- Transform, Metronome, Aura Sphere, Psychic, Ancient Power, Baton Pass, (every TM)
Although the TM's you listed for Alakazam are common in the competitive world, I wouldn't say that they would be iconic. Alakazam doesn't seem as much of a "Ball" shooter as someone who just looks at you and makes you feel the pain. Kind of my same argument with Mewtwo, yea he can learn Flamethrower, but do you really think we're going to give him that in Pokescape? And I see Mr. Mime as more of a Confusion guy than a Psybeam guy, but that's just my opinion.

I think we should come to a consensus on Psychic type before we start discussion on Poison, agreed?

[wulfhunter667]

WK, if you don't mind, could you post a list of TCG Psychic moves. I know Abra has at least one attack in the TCG and that might help in his creation.

[minimoose38]

I can get the TCG moves for Psychic types, just give me a little bit.

[White Knight]

I can get the TCG moves for Psychic types, just give me a little bit.

Thanks. I planned to do it, I have to do some sponge painting today. And I want to continue my Squirtle playtesting.

[minimoose38]

Yikes, that took longer than I thought. I forgot that theres a ton of different cards for each pokemon. I didn't add possible heroscape implementation ideas because that would have taken way too long, someone else can tackle that if its necessary.
Well here is the list:

Psychic Pokemon Moves, TCG
Abra-Pokebody: Psychic Flow. Psyshock, Psychic Beam, Pound, Removal Beam, Vanish, Scratch, Confuse Ray, Headbutt, Energy Loop, Sychronize, Psyscan, Quick Attack.

Kadabra-Pokemon Power: Matter Exchange, Super Psy, Recover, Psy Panic, Blink, Energy Restore, Energy Shock, Energy Recall, Confuse Ray, Nightmare, Mind Shock, Life Drain, Psyshot

Alakazam- Pokemon Power: Power Cancel, Pokemon Power: Damage Swap/Switch, Pokemon Power: Psylink, Pokemon Power: Psymimic, Pokemon Power: Energy Jump, Psychic, Confue Ray, Psy Panic, Trans Damage, Synchroblast, Psychic Guard, Teleport Blast, Mind Shock, Mega Burn, Psychic Select, Skill Copy, Recover, Mysterious beam

Drowzee-Pokemon Power: Long Distance Hypnosis, Poke body, Insomnia, Pound, Confuse Ray, Nightmare, Sleep Inducer, Tackle, Hypnosis, Ambush, Soothing Wave, Disable, Gentle Slap, Suggestion, Energy Support, Mind Shock

Hypno-Poke Body: Blinding Aura, Poke Body: Eerie Aura Pokemon Power: Sleep Pendulum, Pokemon Power: Puppet Master, Prophecy, Dark Mind, Mind Shock, Spiral Aura, Hypnotic Ray, Sleep Inducer, Psyshot, Dream Catcher, Hypnoblast, Psypunch, Dark Link, Black Magic, Invigorate, Pendulum Curse

Mr. Mime-Pokemon Power: Invisible Wall, Poke body: Magic Odds, PokeBody: Magic Evens, Poke body: Airy Wall,Poke Body: Energy Barrier, Pokebody: Focus Wall, Meditate, Juggling, Mind Shock , Trick Play, Desperate Slap, sleight of Hand, Slap, Magic Darts, Breakdown, Magic Heal, Barrier Attack

Mewtwo- Pokemon Power: Dark Wave, Pokemon Power:Link Charge, Pokemon Power: Light of Awakening, Pokepower: Delta Switch, Energy Burst, Psychic, Barrier, Psy crash, Super Psy, Hypnosis, Psychic Erase, Swift, Energy Absorbtion, Recover, Psyburn, Hynoblast, Energy Control, Telekinesis, Super Psy Bolt, Psy Erase, Psywave, Juxtapose, Dark Amplification, trflrvt Sheild, Psyburst, Giga Burn, Psychic Star, Darkness Switch

Mew- Poke Body: Lost Link, Pokemon Pwer: Psychic Vision, Pokemon Power: Neatral Shield, Pokemon Power: Type Change, Pound, Psy Dupe, Super Psywave, Mystery Attack, Link Blast, Psychic Balance, Re-creation, Devolution Beam, Psywave, Psyshock, Rainbow Wave, Barrier, Copy, Extra Draw, Cut, Will-O-Wisp, Sending to Hell (lol, what?), Psychic, Miracle return, Energy Crush, Power Move, Devo Crush, Mutation, Psy Teleport, Call For Family, Teleportaion Burst, Flash Search, Mystic Fire, Teleport, Mimicry

[Kaiyu]

Yikes, that took longer than I thought. I forgot that theres a ton of different cards for each pokemon. I didn't add possible heroscape implementation ideas because that would have taken way too long, someone else can tackle that if its necessary.
Well here is the list:

Psychic Pokemon Moves, TCG
Abra-Pokebody: Psychic Flow. Psyshock, Psychic Beam, Pound, Removal Beam, Vanish, Scratch, Confuse Ray, Headbutt, Energy Loop, Sychronize, Psyscan, Quick Attack.

Kadabra-Pokemon Power: Matter Exchange, Super Psy, Recover, Psy Panic, Blink, Energy Restore, Energy Shock, Energy Recall, Confuse Ray, Nightmare, Mind Shock, Life Drain, Psyshot

Alakazam- Pokemon Power: Power Cancel, Pokemon Power: Damage Swap/Switch, Pokemon Power: Psylink, Pokemon Power: Psymimic, Pokemon Power: Energy Jump, Psychic, Confue Ray, Psy Panic, Trans Damage, Synchroblast, Psychic Guard, Teleport Blast, Mind Shock, Mega Burn, Psychic Select, Skill Copy, Recover, Mysterious beam

Drowzee-Pokemon Power: Long Distance Hypnosis, Poke body, Insomnia, Pound, Confuse Ray, Nightmare, Sleep Inducer, Tackle, Hypnosis, Ambush, Soothing Wave, Disable, Gentle Slap, Suggestion, Energy Support, Mind Shock

Hypno-Poke Body: Blinding Aura, Poke Body: Eerie Aura Pokemon Power: Sleep Pendulum, Pokemon Power: Puppet Master, Prophecy, Dark Mind, Mind Shock, Spiral Aura, Hypnotic Ray, Sleep Inducer, Psyshot, Dream Catcher, Hypnoblast, Psypunch, Dark Link, Black Magic, Invigorate, Pendulum Curse

Mr. Mime-Pokemon Power: Invisible Wall, Poke body: Magic Odds, PokeBody: Magic Evens, Poke body: Airy Wall,Poke Body: Energy Barrier, Pokebody: Focus Wall, Meditate, Juggling, Mind Shock , Trick Play, Desperate Slap, sleight of Hand, Slap, Magic Darts, Breakdown, Magic Heal, Barrier Attack

Mewtwo- Pokemon Power: Dark Wave, Pokemon Power:Link Charge, Pokemon Power: Light of Awakening, Pokepower: Delta Switch, Energy Burst, Psychic, Barrier, Psy crash, Super Psy, Hypnosis, Psychic Erase, Swift, Energy Absorbtion, Recover, Psyburn, Hynoblast, Energy Control, Telekinesis, Super Psy Bolt, Psy Erase, Psywave, Juxtapose, Dark Amplification, trflrvt Sheild, Psyburst, Giga Burn, Psychic Star, Darkness Switch

Mew- Poke Body: Lost Link, Pokemon Pwer: Psychic Vision, Pokemon Power: Neatral Shield, Pokemon Power: Type Change, Pound, Psy Dupe, Super Psywave, Mystery Attack, Link Blast, Psychic Balance, Re-creation, Devolution Beam, Psywave, Psyshock, Rainbow Wave, Barrier, Copy, Extra Draw, Cut, Will-O-Wisp, Sending to Hell (lol, what?), Psychic, Miracle return, Energy Crush, Power Move, Devo Crush, Mutation, Psy Teleport, Call For Family, Teleportaion Burst, Flash Search, Mystic Fire, Teleport, Mimicry
No, its not necessary to give possible Heroscape implementation, but short descriptions of what the TCG power does would be nice. But looking at this list, that might be more work than its worth. If you guys are up to the task, then go ahead. But with 151 Pokemon, writing all that will be a lot of work.

[White Knight]

I still think we should go through the trading cards for ideas, but I agree--too much data.

I suggest that we go through the cards and pick a few of the attacks/power, if any, that we really think might be useful. Also mark what those powers do in the trading card game.

For example, wulf asked about attacks for Abra. Psyshock and Psychic Beam are two attacks we could possibly give Abra that aren't part of the video games.

It will be subjective--based upon who likes is looking up the cards--but it will speed things up.

[wulfhunter667]

I still think we should go through the trading cards for ideas, but I agree--too much data.

I suggest that we go through the cards and pick a few of the attacks/power, if any, that we really think might be useful. Also mark what those powers do in the trading card game.

For example, wulf asked about attacks for Abra. Psyshock and Psychic Beam are two attacks we could possibly give Abra that aren't part of the video games.

It will be subjective--based upon who likes is looking up the cards--but it will speed things up.
I agree 100%. In fact, it was Psyshock I was referring to for Abra. But then, it might be better to have an overall list and then have the individual Trainer look up the names of the powers that might interest them. IDK. It's up to you guys.

[minimoose38]

I don't think taking names from the card games will be extremely necessary. sure its an option if we really need it but the games provide plenty of moves to use without resorting to the oddly named tcg moves. As long as we are willing to throw on an occasional TM or HM, egg or move tutor move on I don't think we will have a detracting amount of overlap. Theres also the 1 or 2 abilities that every pokemon has to draw inspiration from.

And for what I have in mind for Abra, Psyshock and Psybeam won't be necessary. If Abra's Base attack is Psychic type we can assume its using one of those moves but I don't plan on giving Abra any Special Attacks.

[Kaiyu]

I still think we should go through the trading cards for ideas, but I agree--too much data.

I suggest that we go through the cards and pick a few of the attacks/power, if any, that we really think might be useful. Also mark what those powers do in the trading card game.

For example, wulf asked about attacks for Abra. Psyshock and Psychic Beam are two attacks we could possibly give Abra that aren't part of the video games.

It will be subjective--based upon who likes is looking up the cards--but it will speed things up.
I agree 100%. In fact, it was Psyshock I was referring to for Abra. But then, it might be better to have an overall list and then have the individual Trainer look up the names of the powers that might interest them. IDK. It's up to you guys.

I'm okay with getting all the move names listed, but I think that including what they do will be a bit much. Or maybe just do the powers from the first few waves of the TCG. Most of their best cards were from that time anyways.

[White Noise]

EDIT: After thinking about it, maybe it would be better to give Hypno Dream Eater over Nightmare, because Nightmare is Ghost Type and Dream Eater is Psychic Type... how messed up is that?
^ This. Drowzee and Hypno are both based on a mythical dream eating creature known as the baku (although Hypno obviously draws inspiration from a hypnotist). It's only natural that at least one of them gets Dream Eater (I'd go for Drowzee, as most of its Pokedex entries are about eating dreams).

Edit: Why should Abra get a special attack at all? Seems to me that it doesn't do a whole lot other than teleport around.

[fiddlerjones]

I see no reason that Hypno and Gengar can't both have Dream Eater, if their respective designers so choose. Also, we shouldn't rule out using CCG moves' names if needed. If I design a unit with an attack that doesn't easily fit an existing pokemon move, I'll want to draw from the CCG to give it a name. This should also prevent overlap and help us maintain consistency between moves of the same name on different pokemon.

[Kaiyu]

I see no reason that Hypno and Gengar can't both have Dream Eater, if their respective designers so choose.

You're quite right, the designer could do that. But Dream Eater is a Psychic move, so people would have to first be at peace giving a Ghost Pokemon a Psychic move.

[fiddlerjones]

In the video games, pokemon learn cross-type moves all the time. Agility is a psychic type move too, after all, and Pikachu has that, or did in one incarnation. Can't see any reason why a ghost pokemon couldn't have a psychic move, particularly when it's as iconic as Dream Eater is to Gengar.

[White Knight]

In the video games, pokemon learn cross-type moves all the time. Agility is a psychic type move too, after all, and Pikachu has that, or did in one incarnation. Can't see any reason why a ghost pokemon couldn't have a psychic move, particularly when it's as iconic as Dream Eater is to Gengar.

I agree. In the video games, Gastly learns Dream Eater at level 35 and Haunter and Gengar learn it at level 38. And my favorite Haunter trading card is the one with Hypnosis and Dream Eater.

[NightSwipe]

In the video games, pokemon learn cross-type moves all the time. Agility is a psychic type move too, after all, and Pikachu has that, or did in one incarnation. Can't see any reason why a ghost pokemon couldn't have a psychic move, particularly when it's as iconic as Dream Eater is to Gengar.

I agree. In the video games, Gastly learns Dream Eater at level 35 and Haunter and Gengar learn it at level 38. And my favorite Haunter trading card is the one with Hypnosis and Dream Eater.

Ditto. ;)

But seriously, so many non-Ground type Pokemon learn Earthquake, it's not even funny.

[Kaiyu]

In the video games, pokemon learn cross-type moves all the time. Agility is a psychic type move too, after all, and Pikachu has that, or did in one incarnation. Can't see any reason why a ghost pokemon couldn't have a psychic move, particularly when it's as iconic as Dream Eater is to Gengar.
The difference is we don't place a type on Pikachu's Agility, but Dream Eater will be a special attack. If we don't give Nightmare to Ghastly/Haunter/Gengar, then it probably wont get used in Pokescape. If we give Dream Eater to both Ghastly/Haunter/Gengar and Drowzee/Hypno, then we'll have repeated powers (which both you and Wulf have spoken your detestment towards). Its just going to look odd to see a Psychic symbol on the Ghost Pokemon's card is what I'm saying. It doesn't matter in TCG because they put Psychic and Ghost Pokemon in the same Type.

But I don't even know why we're discussing this, because that's not the point of this thread/topic. We will put Dream Eater and Nightmare on both Ghastly/Haunter/Gengar and Drowzee/Hypno's list and we don't need to bother discussing what to do with the powers until those Pokemon go into design. And yes I realize that I was the source of this derailment, I was just trying to point out another potential insightful benefit we could gain by this whole process.

--> What we should be doing is coming to an agreement on this list <--
Psychic Type
According to Minimoose
Abra- Teleport, Flash(TM), Hidden Power(TM)
Kadabra- Confusion, Psybeam, Recover, Kinesis, Reflect
Alakazam-Psychich, Calm Mind, Future Sight, Kinesis, Recover, Shadow Ball(TM), Focus Blast(TM), Energy Ball(TM)
Drowzee- Hypnosis, Headbutt, Poison Gas, Zen Headbutt
Hypno-Hypnosis, Dream Eater, Nightmare, Zen Headbutt
Mr. Mime- Reflect, Barrier, Light Screen, Psybeam, Magical Leaf, Safe Guard, Trick, Double Slap, Encore

Mewtwo-Psychic, Amnesia, Psycho Cut, Aura Sphere, Recover, Reflect, Flamethrower(TM), Ice Beam(TM), Lots of other TMs
Mew- Transform, Metronome, Aura Sphere, Psychic, Ancient Power, Baton Pass, (every TM)
According to Kaiyu
Abra- Teleport, Flash(TM), Hidden Power(TM)
Kadabra- Confusion, Psybeam, Recover, Kinesis, Reflect
Alakazam-Psychich, Calm Mind, Future Sight, Kinesis, Recover
Drowzee- Hypnosis, Headbutt, Poison Gas, Zen Headbutt
Hypno-Hypnosis, Dream Eater(TM), Nightmare, Zen Headbutt
Mr. Mime- Reflect, Barrier, Light Screen, Confusion, Safe Guard, Trick, Double Slap, Encore

Mewtwo-Psychic, Psycho Cut, Aura Sphere, Recover, Reflect,
Mew- Transform, Metronome, Aura Sphere, Psychic, Ancient Power, Baton Pass

[Kroz]

I see Mr. Mime as someone that has great defense (reflect, barrier and substitute).

[Kaiyu]

I see Mr. Mime as someone that has great defense (reflect, barrier and substitute).
Those moves are already included. Do you think the others should be taken off?

[wulfhunter667]

I see Mr. Mime as someone that has great defense (reflect, barrier and substitute).
Those moves are already included. Do you think the others should be taken off?
If the purpose of this brainstorming is simply to list the power available to a Pokemon, no, the powers should not be taken off the list. Long term, it is up to the designer to decide which powers to use and which powers to discard. If this is a reference, have the most options available would seem like the best way to present this information, don't you think?

[Kroz]

No...I was just voicing my opinion about him. I didn't mean to say to take off the other moves.

[Kaiyu]

I see Mr. Mime as someone that has great defense (reflect, barrier and substitute).
Those moves are already included. Do you think the others should be taken off?
If the purpose of this brainstorming is simply to list the power available to a Pokemon, no, the powers should not be taken off the list. Long term, it is up to the designer to decide which powers to use and which powers to discard. If this is a reference, have the most options available would seem like the best way to present this information, don't you think?
If we were to have the most options available, we'd just list all their moves. In that case the designers would just use Bulbapedia. The point is to narrow it down to what the majority of the people would be pleased with seeing on a Pokescape Army Card. But even that is just a means to an end. The point is to be able to quickly compare powers that might be overused or not used at all. If Kroz thought that the other powers listed on Mr. Mime wouldn't ever get used or cleared by the voting members, then that would have been the thing to say. Since that's not what he meant, we'll leave the other powers on there, I just wanted him to clarify.

[Kroz]

Is there a list that I can make? I've got TONS of free time right now.

[Warlord Alpha]

Well, you could do another one of those move lists, but for a non-psychic/normal/ghost type.

Like these :

MOVES:
Ghost Type:
Confuse Ray: Zubat, Golbat, Crobat, Ghastly, Haunter, Gengar
Curse (Ghost Mode): Ghastly, Haunter, Gengar
Destiny Bond: Ghastly, Haunter, Gengar, Koffing, Weezing, (Wobbuffet)
Lick: Ghastly, Haunter, Lickitung
Night Shade: Ghastly, Haunter
Nightmare: Ghastly, Haunter, Gengar, Hypno
Shadow Ball: Gengar

Normal Type:
Curse (Non-Ghost Mode): Slowpoke, Slowbro

Psychic Type:
Dream Eater: Ghastly, Haunter, Gengar
Hypnosis: Poliwag, Poliwhirl, Ghastly, Haunter, Gengar, Drowzee, Hypno, Execute, (Hoothoot, Noctowl)

[minimoose38]

Why are Slowpoke and Slowbro under Normal type? They are Water/Psychic you know. Speaking of which, I forgot to count them in my psychic list, should I add them?

[White Knight]

Psychic Dual Types
Slowpoke
Slowbro
Exeggcute
Exeggutor
Starmie
Jynx

[White Knight]

Is there a list that I can make? I've got TONS of free time right now.

We've listed Psychic, Ghost, and Poison so far, and we're still talking about them--so you might not want to post any new lists yet. But I think if you did Grass or Bug or Normal pokemon and got it ready to post, that would be great. Or you could post, and we'll keep it on the back burner until we finish the others.

[Kaiyu]

Why are Slowpoke and Slowbro under Normal type? They are Water/Psychic you know. Speaking of which, I forgot to count them in my psychic list, should I add them?
Because that's a MOVE list, not a Pokemon list, and unless you're a Ghost Type, Curse is considered a Normal Type move (because technically Curse's Type is ???)

And if you want to do Slowpoke, Slowbro, Execute. Executor, Jynx and Starmie, that would be great, unless someone beats you to it. Might want to Psyduck and Golduck too, since they're known for their Psychic moves even though they're not Psychic Type.

[Kroz]

Here's a list of rock moves, with the pokemon. I tried to include only up to generation II pokemon except where the move was special to those pokemon.

Rock Moves


Ancient Power: Omanyte, Omastar, Kabuto, Kabutops, Aerodactyl, (corsola)

Head Smash: (Rampardos, Cranidos, Relicanth)

Rock Blast:Geodude line, Rhyhorn, Rhydon, (Anorith, Armaldo, Corsola)

Rock Slide: Geodude line, Onix, Rhyhorn line

Rock Throw: Geodude line, Onix

Rock Tomb: Onix

Rock Wrecker: (Rhyperior only)

Rollout: Jigglypuff, Geodude line, Voltorb line, (Phanpy line, Miltank, Marill line), and snorlax [this one has a lot of non-rock type pokemon]

Stone Edge: Geodude line, Onix, Rhyhorn line, (steelix, and the larvitar line)

Sandstorm: Sandshrew line, Onix Line, (Larvitar line.)

Rock Polish: Geodude line, Onix line

Stealth Rock: Is only learned by TM.

[White Noise]

The difference is we don't place a type on Pikachu's Agility, but Dream Eater will be a special attack. If we don't give Nightmare to Ghastly/Haunter/Gengar, then it probably wont get used in Pokescape.

It might come up with Darkrai, but that's a ways off (besides, I think he'd just get Bad Dreams anyway, no need for Nightmare). There's no 'h' in Gastly, by the way.

If we give Dream Eater to both Ghastly/Haunter/Gengar and Drowzee/Hypno, then we'll have repeated powers (which both you and Wulf have spoken your detestment towards). Its just going to look odd to see a Psychic symbol on the Ghost Pokemon's card is what I'm saying. It doesn't matter in TCG because they put Psychic and Ghost Pokemon in the same Type.

So? It's bound to happen sooner or later, as there are Pokemon out there like Golduck known for using moves outside their type (and a few, like Shiftry, that don't actually learn attack moves of one of their types).

But I don't even know why we're discussing this, because that's not the point of this thread/topic. We will put Dream Eater and Nightmare on both Ghastly/Haunter/Gengar and Drowzee/Hypno's list and we don't need to bother discussing what to do with the powers until those Pokemon go into design. And yes I realize that I was the source of this derailment, I was just trying to point out another potential insightful benefit we could gain by this whole process.

--> What we should be doing is coming to an agreement on this list <--
Psychic Type
According to Minimoose
Abra- Teleport, Flash(TM), Hidden Power(TM)
Kadabra- Confusion, Psybeam, Recover, Kinesis, Reflect
Alakazam-Psychich, Calm Mind, Future Sight, Kinesis, Recover, Shadow Ball(TM), Focus Blast(TM), Energy Ball(TM)
Drowzee- Hypnosis, Headbutt, Poison Gas, Zen Headbutt
Hypno-Hypnosis, Dream Eater, Nightmare, Zen Headbutt
Mr. Mime- Reflect, Barrier, Light Screen, Psybeam, Magical Leaf, Safe Guard, Trick, Double Slap, Encore

Mewtwo-Psychic, Amnesia, Psycho Cut, Aura Sphere, Recover, Reflect, Flamethrower(TM), Ice Beam(TM), Lots of other TMs
Mew- Transform, Metronome, Aura Sphere, Psychic, Ancient Power, Baton Pass, (every TM)
According to Kaiyu
Abra- Teleport, Flash(TM), Hidden Power(TM)
Kadabra- Confusion, Psybeam, Recover, Kinesis, Reflect
Alakazam-Psychich, Calm Mind, Future Sight, Kinesis, Recover
Drowzee- Hypnosis, Headbutt, Poison Gas, Zen Headbutt
Hypno-Hypnosis, Dream Eater(TM), Nightmare, Zen Headbutt
Mr. Mime- Reflect, Barrier, Light Screen, Confusion, Safe Guard, Trick, Double Slap, Encore

Mewtwo-Psychic, Psycho Cut, Aura Sphere, Recover, Reflect,
Mew- Transform, Metronome, Aura Sphere, Psychic, Ancient Power, Baton Pass

Abra - I think you'd be fine with just Teleport, honestly. Abra's too feeble to have any sort of special attack.
Kadabra/Alakazam - I'm not sure how you'd implement Calm Mind, but it would fit on them. I'd add Role Play to the list, though.
Drowzee - Add Dream Eater here if it's going to be on Hypno's list. Even though it's a slight break from the games, it is thematic.
Mewtwo - No on Psycho Cut. Mewtwo's a special beast, and Psycho Cut's physical. Save it for Gallade.

Comments in bold.

I'm starting to feel like just listing moves isn't going to help make the Pokemon unique and thematic enough, because card creators will think more about which of the moves to put on rather than what the Pokemon should be able to do based on its abilites and theme. For example, Kingdra's supposed to be able to create huge tornadoes and whirlpools on a whim, but you wouldn't know it from the moves it uses in the games (yes, it learns Twister, but it's a weak attack that doesn't do it justice). Might I suggest reading over all the Pokedex entries (and possibly forming a short summary of them and adding it under the moves) to get a feel for them?

Also, little question. How would weather effects be implemented?

[NightSwipe]

Personally, I think weather effects should be saved for scenarios, because I have no idea of how to properly implementing them. As for Kingdra, I would just give it a Water-type move and a Dragon-Type move.

[White Knight]

I'm starting to feel like just listing moves isn't going to help make the Pokemon unique and thematic enough, because card creators will think more about which of the moves to put on rather than what the Pokemon should be able to do based on its abilites and theme. For example, Kingdra's supposed to be able to create huge tornadoes and whirlpools on a whim, but you wouldn't know it from the moves it uses in the games (yes, it learns Twister, but it's a weak attack that doesn't do it justice). Might I suggest reading over all the Pokedex entries (and possibly forming a short summary of them and adding it under the moves) to get a feel for them?

Great reminder about keeping the Pokemon thematic. Pokemon in the videos can do a lot of things that don't happen in the video game (such as Kecleon disappearing in grass).

I agree that as we list the Pokemon moves, we might also want to list their Pokedex entries. And I'd also like to hear any personal stories from battling in the games or things people remember from the videos. A good example is how Psyduck's attacks get stronger as it's headache increases. Or how a flock of Spearow attacked Ash and Pikachu.

[NightSwipe]

Going with what White Knight said, I remember from the R/S/E days that Absol would appear before people only to warn them of disasters.

Likewise, Gastly could defeat any foe by enveloping the opponent and causing suffocation.

[Kaiyu]

For example, Kingdra's supposed to be able to create huge tornadoes and whirlpools on a whim, but you wouldn't know it from the moves it uses in the games (yes, it learns Twister, but it's a weak attack that doesn't do it justice).

Just because the move is weak in the game certainly does not mean it has to be weak in Pokescape. Just look at what we've made so far. I never use agility in the GB games, but Agility is pretty cool on Pikachu. Smokescreen and Sand Attack don't even do the same thing, just sort of remind us of what the power really does. We could make Kingdra's Twister or Whirlpool as fantastically powerful as we want to. Its only the name and the idea behind it that we're borrowing.

[White Noise]

So I figure I should try to summarize Pokedex entries here. I'm going to just touch on the important bits:

Abra - It sleeps 18 hours a day, and uses psychic powers to sense incoming danger and teleport away to safety. It also teleports once an hour, even when it's asleep.

Kadabra - It emits strong alpha waves that interfere with machinery and cause headaches. Its spoon amplifies its waves. It is rumored that a boy with psychic abilities turned into a Kadabra.

Alakazam - It has an IQ of 5,000 and remembers everything it has ever learned. Its body is rather weak, so it relies on psychic powers to hold itself up. Its spoon was made with psychic powers.

Drowzee - It eats dreams, but gets sick if it eats bad dreams. It can use its nose to tell what a person is dreaming about. It is skilled at hypnotism.

Hypno - It makes eye contact with its foe and uses its pendulum to lull it into a deep state of hypnosis. When it is hungry, it will put people to sleep and eat their dreams.

Mr. Mime - If its miming is interrupted, it will slap the offender. It makes enemies believe something is there that isn't, and once they believe it exists, it does. Its hands form an invisible barrier of hardened air using an odd force field.

Mewtwo - It was created by a scientist doing horrific genetic experiments with Mew's DNA. Science failed to give it a warm heart, and the genetic recombination made it cruel. It only thinks of battle, and remains motionless to conserve energy for fighting.

Mew - So rare that it's called a mirage, it is only seen by those with a pure heart and a desire to see it. It can turn itself invisible. It is said to have the DNA of all Pokemon, causing research to see if it is the ancestor of all Pokemon. It can learn any move.

I figure I'll throw in the ghosts, too:

Gastly: Its body is made of gas. It enshrouds opponents with its body in order to put them to sleep, poison them, or cause suffocation. It is nearly invisible, but, because it is a gas, it is easily blown away by the wind.

Haunter: It licks its foes to steal life. Its tongue causes shaking that won't stop until its victim dies. It lurks in darkness to stalk its victims. Because it can pass through solid objects, it is said to be from another dimension.

Gengar: It imitates shadows at night and absorbs heat, causing a cold spot. It lays a curse on those it stalks.

[fiddlerjones]

For example, Kingdra's supposed to be able to create huge tornadoes and whirlpools on a whim, but you wouldn't know it from the moves it uses in the games (yes, it learns Twister, but it's a weak attack that doesn't do it justice).

Just because the move is weak in the game certainly does not mean it has to be weak in Pokescape. Just look at what we've made so far. I never use agility in the GB games, but Agility is pretty cool on Pikachu. Smokescreen and Sand Attack don't even do the same thing, just sort of remind us of what the power really does. We could make Kingdra's Twister or Whirlpool as fantastically powerful as we want to. Its only the name and the idea behind it that we're borrowing.

Seconded. Excellent point: moves don't have to replicate what they do in the video games.

Maybe Whirlpool could teleport a figure on a water space to another water space or something.

[Kaiyu]

Psychic Type
Abra- Teleport, Hidden Power(TM)
Kadabra- Confusion, Psybeam, Recover, Kinesis, Reflect, Role Play
Alakazam- Recover, Kinesis, Reflect, Role Play, Calm Mind, Psychic, Future Sight
Drowzee- Poison Gas, Headbutt, Hypnosis, Dream Eater(TM), Zen Headbutt
Hypno- Hypnosis, Dream Eater(TM), Zen Headbutt, Nightmare
Mr. Mime- Reflect, Barrier, Light Screen, Confusion, Safe Guard, Trick, Double Slap, Encore

Mewtwo- Psychic, Aura Sphere, Recover, Reflect,
Mew- Transform, Metronome, Aura Sphere, Psychic, Ancient Power, Baton Pass

Slowpoke- Yawn, Confusion, Disable, Headbutt, Water Gun, Water Pulse, Zen Headbutt, Amsesia
Slowbro- Water Pulse, Zen Headbutt, Amsesia, Slack Off, Psychic

Exeggcute- Barrage, Hypnosis, Bullet Seed, Confusion
Exeggutor- Stomp, Seed Bomb, Egg Bomb, Leaf Storm, Psychic(TM)

Staryu- Rapid Spin, Bubblebeam, Swift, Minimize
Starmie- Light Screen, Recover, Confuse Ray, Water Pulse(TM), Psychic(TM)

Jynx- Lovely Kiss, Double Slap, Ice Punch, Perish Song, Psychic (TM)
Unless there is any further discussion on this I'll post it on the front page.

[Warlord Alpha]

Add "Rapid Spin" to Starmie as well.

[flameslayer93]

Can I suggest a Pokemon to be made here? If so, I'll suggest Onix(if it wasn't already finished). I think we could do the giant snake of stone some justice:D.

[Kaiyu]

Can I suggest a Pokemon to be made here? If so, I'll suggest Onix(if it wasn't already finished). I think we could do the giant snake of stone some justice:D.
Onix is on the list for the master set. Carakki was going to be the designer for him, but since he resigned we will have to give him to someone else. But don't worry, he will be made. We intend to make all 151 Pokemon in due time.

[White Knight]

Staryu and Starmie both learn Water Gun in the video games, but Bubblebeam matches the TV series better. You still might want to add Water Gun just to be complete.

Other than that, the list looks good.

[flameslayer93]

Can I suggest a Pokemon to be made here? If so, I'll suggest Onix(if it wasn't already finished). I think we could do the giant snake of stone some justice:D.
Onix is on the list for the master set. Carakki was going to be the designer for him, but since he resigned we will have to give him to someone else. But don't worry, he will be made. We intend to make all 151 Pokemon in due time.

Cool!8):D

[Kaiyu]

Amnesia: Psyduck, Slowpoke, Slowbro
Barrier: Mr. Mime, Mewtwo
Calm Mind: Alakazam
Confusion: Butterfree, Venonat, Venomoth, Psyduck, Kadabra, Slowpoke, Exeggcute, Mr. Mime
Future Sight: Alakazam
Kinesis: Kadabra, Alakazam
Light Screen: Mr. Mime, Starmie
Psybeam: Venomoth, Kadabra, Porygon
Psychic: Venomoth, Alakazam, Slowbro, Hypno, Mewtwo, Mew, Exeggutor(TM), Starmie(TM), Jynx(TM)
Psywave: Butterfree(TM), Venonat(TM), Venomoth(TM), Kadabra(TM), Drowzee(TM), Hypno(TM), Starmie(TM) Mr. Mime(TM), Jynx(TM)
Reflect: Kadabra, Alakazam, Mr. Mime
Role Play: Kadabra, Mr. Mime
Teleport: Abra
Zen Headbutt: Slowpoke, Slowbro, Drowzee, Hypno

Barrage: Exeggute
Disable: Venonat, Psyduck, Slowpoke, Lickitung
Double Slap: Clefairy, Clefable, Jigglypuff, Wigglytuff, Poliwhirl, Chansey, Mr. Mime, Jynx
Encore: Clefairy, Seel, Mr. Mime
Headbutt: Slowpoke, Seel, Drowzee, Cubone
Metronome: Clefairy, Clefable, Mew
Rapid Spin: Squirtle, Wartortle, Blastoise, Staryu, Starmie, Hitmontop
Recover: Kadabra, Alakazam, Starmie, Porygon, Mewtwo
Safeguard: Mr. Mime, Wobbuffet
Slack Off: Slowbro
Stomp: Ponyta, Rapidash, Exeggutor, Lickitung, Rhydon
Transform: Ditto, Mew
Yawn: Slowpoke, Snorlax

Poison Gas: Drowzee, Koffing, Weezing

Aura Sphere: Mewtwo, Mew, Lucario

Ancient Power: Tangela, Omanyte, Omastar, Kabuto, Kabutops, Aerodactly, Mew

Bubblebeam: Poliwag, Krabby, Kingler, Horsea, Seadra, Staryu, Starmie
Water Gun: Squirtle, Poliwag, Slowpoke, Horsea, Staryu, Vaporeon
Water Pulse: Golduck, Tentacruel, Slowpoke, Slowbro, Lapras, Starmie(TM)

Bullet Seed: Exeggcute
Leaf Storm: Exeggutor, Bellossom
Seed Bomb: Exeggutor
Add/Subtract?

[White Knight]

Some additions from the Trading Card Game (in bold). I'm not going to go through every single Pokemon card--it just takes too long. But my sons have a lot of cards and I sorted the Kanto region ones, so I'll post any decent TCG moves from them for each Pokemon.


Psychic Type
Abra- Teleport, Hidden Power(TM), Psyshock
Kadabra- Confusion, Psybeam, Recover, Kinesis, Reflect, Role Play, Super Psy
Alakazam- Recover, Kinesis, Reflect, Role Play, Calm Mind, Psychic, Future Sight, Mind Shock

Drowzee- Poison Gas, Headbutt, Hypnosis, Dream Eater(TM), Zen Headbutt
Hypno- Hypnosis, Dream Eater(TM), Zen Headbutt, Nightmare, Prophecy, Dark Mind, Black Magic, Eerie Aura

Mr. Mime- Reflect, Barrier, Light Screen, Confusion, Safe Guard, Trick, Double Slap, Encore, Slight of Hand

Mewtwo- Psychic, Aura Sphere, Recover, Reflect, Psyburn, Barrier
Mew- Transform, Metronome, Aura Sphere, Psychic, Ancient Power, Baton Pass, Psywave

Slowpoke- Yawn, Confusion, Disable, Headbutt, Water Gun, Water Pulse, Zen Headbutt, Amsesia
Slowbro- Water Pulse, Zen Headbutt, Amsesia, Slack Off, Psychic, Strange Behavior (move wound markers to Slowbro), Psyshock

Exeggcute- Barrage, Hypnosis, Bullet Seed, Confusion
Exeggutor- Stomp, Seed Bomb, Egg Bomb, Leaf Storm, Psychic(TM), Triple Headbutt, Big Eggsplosion

Staryu- Rapid Spin, Bubblebeam, Swift, Minimize, Slap, Spinning Attack
Starmie- Light Screen, Recover, Confuse Ray, Water Pulse(TM), Psychic(TM), Cosmic Cyclone

Jynx- Lovely Kiss, Double Slap, Ice Punch, Perish Song, Psychic (TM)
Unless there is any further discussion on this I'll post it on the front page.

[wulfhunter667]

For anyone willing to take the time and effort to do it, there is a website with all of the TCG cards indexed and searchable in text form. It is http://www.pokepedia.net/. Another excellent resource for this and all the PP Threads.

[White Knight]

For anyone willing to take the time and effort to do it, there is a website with all of the TCG cards indexed and searchable in text form. It is http://www.pokepedia.net/. Another excellent resource for this and all the PP Threads.

Much, much, much quicker than Bulbapedia! Thanks for the link. :thumbsup:

[wulfhunter667]

For anyone willing to take the time and effort to do it, there is a website with all of the TCG cards indexed and searchable in text form. It is http://www.pokepedia.net/. Another excellent resource for this and all the PP Threads.

Much, much, much quicker than Bulbapedia! Thanks for the link. :thumbsup:
No problem. It's what I'm here for. ;)

[Kaiyu]

Scyther is next in line for design after Abra, should we get Bug and Normal type done before then? I'll take on the larger task of Normal if someone wants to take Bug.

[White Noise]

Why Normal? Scyther's Bug and Flying.

[wulfhunter667]

Why Normal? Scyther's Bug and Flying.
Get a look at Scyther's moves (http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-rs/123.shtml). The vast majority are Normal. Plus, it wouldn't be a bad thing to have them mapped out already.

[Warlord Alpha]

Why Normal? Scyther's Bug and Flying.
Get a look at Scyther's moves (http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-rs/123.shtml). The vast majority are Normal. Plus, it wouldn't be a bad thing to have them mapped out already.

That's because you are looking at the wrong generation of games. Here's the 4th gen (http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-dp/123.shtml) one. It still has a lot of normal type moves, but there are a lot more non-normal type moves in there.

[wulfhunter667]

Why Normal? Scyther's Bug and Flying.
Get a look at Scyther's moves (http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-rs/123.shtml). The vast majority are Normal. Plus, it wouldn't be a bad thing to have them mapped out already.

That's because you are looking at the wrong generation of games. Here's the 4th gen (http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-dp/123.shtml) one. It still has a lot of normal type moves, but there are a lot more non-normal type moves in there.
9 Normal move is "a lot"?!? Last time I checked, 9 of 16 is a majority. 4th gen, 1st gen, doesn't matter. The majority of Scyther's moves are normal.

[White Noise]

Yes, but that doesn't mean it should have a normal type attack necessarily. Just saying.

Might I suggest Fury Cutter right away?

[NightSwipe]

I'm not sure if we should be using HM moves as attacks, but Cut would be ideal for Scyther, in my opinion.

[Kaiyu]

I had Slash and Swords Dance in mind when I said Normal Type. I don't why you're complaining though, I'm the one doing it ;)

[White Noise]

I'm not complaining so much that Scyther gets a Normal type move. I'm just wondering why Normal types need to be brought up now, as the only other Gen. I Normal type that could potentially use simiilar moves is Farfetch'd (which would be covered by doing Flying types).

Although I suppose Normal types have to be brought up sooner or later, so it's kind of a moot point.

[Kroz]

I think slash if perfect for scyther, and I think that it's a simple power. Just use the power the minions and snipers have. It's a normal attack that isn't a special attack. Then you can make room for a special attack as well. Double team is another important move for scyther as well.

[NightSwipe]

I think Slash and Double Team would work well for Scyther.

[White Knight]

Let's focus on the move mapping. I've started compiling the moves for Bug Pokmeon.

We'll talk about Scyther's moves in the Design thread when we finish with Abra. I have ideas.;)

[Kaiyu]

Normal Type PokemonPidgey: Gust, Quick Attack, Whirlwind
Pidgeotto: Gust, Quick Attack, Whirlwind, Feather Dance, Agility
Pidgeot: Whirlwind, Feather Dance, Agility, Roost, Tailwind, Mirror Move, Double-Edge

Rattata: Quick Attack, Bite, Hyper Fang, Super Fang
Raticate: Crunch, Hyper Fang, Super Fang

Spearow: Peck, Fury Attack, Pursuit
Fearow: Roost, Drill Peck

Clefairy: Pound, Encore, Sing, Double Slap, Follow Me, Cosmic Power, Metronome, Monlight, Meteor Mash, Healing Wish
Clefable: Pound, Encore, Sing, Double Slap, Follow Me, Cosmic Power, Metronome, Monlight, Meteor Mash, Healing Wish

Jigglypuff: Sing, Defense Curl, Pound, Rest
Wigglytuff: Sing, Defense Curl, Pound, Rest

Meowth: Fury Swipes, Pay Day
Persian: Slash, Night Slash

Farfetch’d: Slash, Air Cutter, Air Slash, False Swipe, Feint

Doduo: Peck, Rage, Fury Attack, Pursuit, Doubt Hit
Dudrio: Rage, Fury Attack, Pusuit, Tri-Attack, Drill Peck, Endeavor

Lickitung: Lick, Supersonic, Wrap, Stomp, Disable, Slam, Wring Out

Chansey: Softboiled, Sing, Egg Bomb, Double-Edge

Kangaskan: Comet Punch, Mega Punch, Dizzy Punch, Sucker Punch

Tauros: Rage, Scary Face, Pursuit, Take Down, Thrash, Giga Impact

Ditto: Hyper Beam, Giga Impact, Fire Blast, Blizzard, Thunder, Psychic, Solar Beam, Earthquake

Eevee: Tail Whip, Quick Attack, Baton Pass, Last Resort, Trump Card

Porygon: Concersion, Conversion 2, Recover, Tri-Attack

Snorlax: Belly Drum, Yawn, Rest, Snore, Sleep Talk, Body Slam
I guess it wasn't that useful to do Normal Type, but at least its done.

[White Knight]

You might want to add Fly to Pidgeot and Dodrio.

Fly could be carry-type move such as Theracus' Carry ability.

[Kaiyu]

Normal Type PokemonPidgey: Gust, Quick Attack, Whirlwind
Pidgeotto: Gust, Quick Attack, Whirlwind, Feather Dance, Agility
Pidgeot: Whirlwind, Feather Dance, Agility, Roost, Tailwind, Mirror Move, Double-Edge, Fly

Rattata: Quick Attack, Bite, Hyper Fang, Super Fang
Raticate: Crunch, Hyper Fang, Super Fang

Spearow: Peck, Fury Attack, Pursuit
Fearow: Roost, Drill Peck, Fly

Clefairy: Pound, Encore, Sing, Double Slap, Follow Me, Cosmic Power, Metronome, Monlight, Meteor Mash, Healing Wish
Clefable: Pound, Encore, Sing, Double Slap, Follow Me, Cosmic Power, Metronome, Monlight, Meteor Mash, Healing Wish

Jigglypuff: Sing, Defense Curl, Pound, Rest
Wigglytuff: Sing, Defense Curl, Pound, Rest

Meowth: Fury Swipes, Pay Day
Persian: Slash, Night Slash

Farfetch’d: Slash, Air Cutter, Air Slash, False Swipe, Feint

Doduo: Peck, Rage, Fury Attack, Pursuit, Doubt Hit
Dudrio: Rage, Fury Attack, Pusuit, Tri-Attack, Drill Peck, Endeavor, Fly

Lickitung: Lick, Supersonic, Wrap, Stomp, Disable, Slam, Wring Out

Chansey: Softboiled, Sing, Egg Bomb, Double-Edge

Kangaskan: Comet Punch, Mega Punch, Dizzy Punch, Sucker Punch

Tauros: Rage, Scary Face, Pursuit, Take Down, Thrash, Giga Impact

Ditto: Hyper Beam, Giga Impact, Fire Blast, Blizzard, Thunder, Psychic, Solar Beam, Earthquake

Eevee: Tail Whip, Quick Attack, Baton Pass, Last Resort, Trump Card

Porygon: Concersion, Conversion 2, Recover, Tri-Attack

Snorlax: Belly Drum, Yawn, Rest, Snore, Sleep Talk, Body Slam

You might want to add Fly to Pidgeot and Dodrio.

Fly could be carry-type move such as Theracus' Carry ability.

Good thinking, that would be an awesome way to represent Fly. I added it to Fearow too.

[Kroz]

I wonder how Mirror Move would work.

[Kaiyu]

I wonder how Mirror Move would work.
It wouldn't be exact to how it works on the GB games, but it could just steal a special power or special attack of an opponent's figure within X clear sight spaces. It would be unHeroscape-like to have a player recall the last power used on a figure.

[wulfhunter667]

I wonder how Mirror Move would work.
It wouldn't be exact to how it works on the GB games, but it could just steal a special power or special attack of an opponent's figure within X clear sight spaces. It would be unHeroscape-like to have a player recall the last power used on a figure.
The way is is supposed to work in the games is that you use the exact same move your opponent just used on you. Thinking about it, I think a cool idea for it would go something like this.
Mirror Move 15
When X is attacked by an opponent's special attack, you may roll a 20-sided die. If you roll 15 or higher, X may immediately attack that figure with the same special attack. X must have at least one unrevealed order marker on its army card to use Mirror Move 15.
I'm a big fan of using the X order marker for something other than trying to fool your opponent and this would make folks think twice about attacking a figure with two OMs and Mirror Move. ;)

[Kroz]

That seems like a VERY cool version of it.

[BiggaBullfrog]

Normal Type PokemonPidgey: Gust, Quick Attack, Whirlwind
Pidgeotto: Gust, Quick Attack, Whirlwind, Feather Dance, Agility
Pidgeot: Whirlwind, Feather Dance, Agility, Roost, Tailwind, Mirror Move, Double-Edge, Fly

Rattata: Quick Attack, Bite, Hyper Fang, Super Fang
Raticate: Crunch, Hyper Fang, Super Fang

Spearow: Peck, Fury Attack, Pursuit
Fearow: Roost, Drill Peck, Fly

Clefairy: Pound, Encore, Sing, Double Slap, Follow Me, Cosmic Power, Metronome, Monlight, Meteor Mash, Healing Wish
Clefable: Pound, Encore, Sing, Double Slap, Follow Me, Cosmic Power, Metronome, Monlight, Meteor Mash, Healing Wish

Jigglypuff: Sing, Defense Curl, Pound, Rest
Wigglytuff: Sing, Defense Curl, Pound, Rest

Meowth: Fury Swipes, Pay Day
Persian: Slash, Night Slash

Farfetch’d: Slash, Air Cutter, Air Slash, False Swipe, Feint

Doduo: Peck, Rage, Fury Attack, Pursuit, Doubt Hit
Dudrio: Rage, Fury Attack, Pusuit, Tri-Attack, Drill Peck, Endeavor, Fly

Lickitung: Lick, Supersonic, Wrap, Stomp, Disable, Slam, Wring Out

Chansey: Softboiled, Sing, Egg Bomb, Double-Edge

Kangaskan: Comet Punch, Mega Punch, Dizzy Punch, Sucker Punch

Tauros: Rage, Scary Face, Pursuit, Take Down, Thrash, Giga Impact

Ditto: Hyper Beam, Giga Impact, Fire Blast, Blizzard, Thunder, Psychic, Solar Beam, Earthquake

Eevee: Tail Whip, Quick Attack, Baton Pass, Last Resort, Trump Card

Porygon: Concersion, Conversion 2, Recover, Tri-Attack

Snorlax: Belly Drum, Yawn, Rest, Snore, Sleep Talk, Body Slam

Good list, but I'd add Giga Imapact or Hyper Beam to Snorlax. (Probably Giga Impact, but Hyper Beam's just another option.)

[Kaiyu]

Normal Type PokemonPidgey: Gust, Quick Attack, Whirlwind
Pidgeotto: Gust, Quick Attack, Whirlwind, Feather Dance, Agility
Pidgeot: Whirlwind, Feather Dance, Agility, Roost, Tailwind, Mirror Move, Double-Edge, Fly

Rattata: Quick Attack, Bite, Hyper Fang, Super Fang
Raticate: Crunch, Hyper Fang, Super Fang

Spearow: Peck, Fury Attack, Pursuit
Fearow: Roost, Drill Peck, Fly

Clefairy: Pound, Encore, Sing, Double Slap, Follow Me, Cosmic Power, Metronome, Monlight, Meteor Mash, Healing Wish
Clefable: Pound, Encore, Sing, Double Slap, Follow Me, Cosmic Power, Metronome, Monlight, Meteor Mash, Healing Wish

Jigglypuff: Sing, Defense Curl, Pound, Rest
Wigglytuff: Sing, Defense Curl, Pound, Rest

Meowth: Fury Swipes, Pay Day
Persian: Slash, Night Slash

Farfetch’d: Slash, Air Cutter, Air Slash, False Swipe, Feint

Doduo: Peck, Rage, Fury Attack, Pursuit, Doubt Hit
Dudrio: Rage, Fury Attack, Pusuit, Tri-Attack, Drill Peck, Endeavor, Fly

Lickitung: Lick, Supersonic, Wrap, Stomp, Disable, Slam, Wring Out

Chansey: Softboiled, Sing, Egg Bomb, Double-Edge

Kangaskan: Comet Punch, Mega Punch, Dizzy Punch, Sucker Punch

Tauros: Rage, Scary Face, Pursuit, Take Down, Thrash, Giga Impact

Ditto: Hyper Beam, Giga Impact, Fire Blast, Blizzard, Thunder, Psychic, Solar Beam, Earthquake

Eevee: Tail Whip, Quick Attack, Baton Pass, Last Resort, Trump Card

Porygon: Concersion, Conversion 2, Recover, Tri-Attack

Snorlax: Belly Drum, Yawn, Rest, Snore, Sleep Talk, Body Slam, Giga Impact

Good list, but I'd add Giga Imapact or Hyper Beam to Snorlax. (Probably Giga Impact, but Hyper Beam's just another option.)
I guess he did use Hyper Beam in the show (and we all know how accurate the show is with the video game :roll:) but I do agree that Giga Impact would make sense, Hyper beam would be useless on Snorlax compared to Giga Impact with such a low Special Attack stat though.

[White Knight]

Bug
Caterpie—string shot

Metapod—harden, exoskeleton (TCG)

Pinsir—vicegrip, seismic toss, guillotine, focus energy, harden, irongrip (TCG)


Bug/Flying
Butterfree—confusion, poison powder, stun spore, sleep powder, silver wind, cure powder (TCG), Mega Drain (TCG), Miraculous Powder

Scyther—quick attack, focus energy, double team, slash, sword dance, agility, fury cutter, x-scissor, blinding scythe (TCG), sharp sickle (TCG)


Bug/Poison
Weedle—poison sting, string shot, sting (TCG), sharp stinger (TCG)

Kakuna—harden, poison sting, toxic secretion (TCG), poison payback (TCG), poison powder (TCG)

Beedrill—fury attack, twineedle, pin missile, agility, poison sting (TCG), final sting (TCG)

Venonat—disable, poison powder, leech life, stun spore, psybeam

Venomoth—disable, poison powder, leech life, stun spore, psybeam, sleep powder, psychic, healing pollen (TCG), razor wind (TCG), venom powder (TCG)


Bug/Grass
Paras—stun spore, leech life, spore, growth, irongrip (TCG), sleep spore (TCG), rupture pollen (TCG), wild spores (TCG)

Parasect—stun spore, leech life, spore, growth, rupture pollen (TCG), allergic pollen (TCG), toxic spore (TCG), wild spores (TCG)

[NightSwipe]

Venomoth—disable, poison powder, leech life, stun spore, psybeam, sleep powder, psychic, healing pollen (TCG), 1. razor wind (TCG), 2. venom powder (TCG)




1. Nice list, thanks for compiling it.

1a. Actually, Razor Wind is a move in the games, but Venomoth can't learn it. Plus, it would be kind of hard to incorporate.

2. To me, Venom Powder seems like Poison Powder. Maybe it could cause bad poisoning? Or are we including that?

[wulfhunter667]

Venomoth—disable, poison powder, leech life, stun spore, psybeam, sleep powder, psychic, healing pollen (TCG), 1. razor wind (TCG), 2. venom powder (TCG)




1. Nice list, thanks for compiling it.

1a. Actually, Razor Wind is a move in the games, but Venomoth can't learn it. Plus, it would be kind of hard to incorporate.

2. To me, Venom Powder seems like Poison Powder. Maybe it could cause bad poisoning? Or are we including that?
Actually, WK is doing what we asked him to do. TCG has a number of different abilities on the cards and he is just listing the names of those abilities.

[Kaiyu]

Venomoth—disable, poison powder, leech life, stun spore, psybeam, sleep powder, psychic, healing pollen (TCG), 1. razor wind (TCG), 2. venom powder (TCG)




1. Nice list, thanks for compiling it.

1a. Actually, Razor Wind is a move in the games, but Venomoth can't learn it. Plus, it would be kind of hard to incorporate.

2. To me, Venom Powder seems like Poison Powder. Maybe it could cause bad poisoning? Or are we including that?
Actually, WK is doing what we asked him to do. TCG has a number of different abilities on the cards and he is just listing the names of those abilities.
I think Nightswipe was adding 2 more, not trying to take any off.

[NightSwipe]

Yeah, I was just trying to transfer a few moves that stood out to me from TCG to Heroscape. Wasn't trying to say he was doing the wrong thing.

[White Knight]

Caterpie should be interesting: Tackle and String Shot.

[Kroz]

Fyorlag spiders?

[White Knight]

I was thinking more of a weak Dund who, instead of attacking, can roll a d20 to remove an order marker.

[NightSwipe]

Or maybe reduce the move of "chosen figure" by 1 or 2 until its next turn is over.
Maybe, 2 for small/medium, 1 for large, doesn't affect huge?

[White Noise]

So should Metapod and Magikarp. Harden and Splash...

[NightSwipe]

In the Pokemon Mystery Dungeon Games, Splash moves you to a random location 1 space away. For example:

O = You
- = Magikarp
X = Free Space


X X X
X O X
X X -

Magikarp used Splash!

X X X
X O X
X - X

However, if Splash hits someone, both the user and the figure that was hit take 5 damage. Then, Magikarp (or whoever else used Splash) goes off to a random space as stated above.

X X X
X O X
X X -

Magikarp used Splash!

X X X
X OX X
X X X

[Pokemon that was hit] took 5 damage! Magikarp took 5 damage!

X X X
X O -
X X X

[Chardar]

If Metapod was evolved from Cataprie it would still have tackle and string shot, so Metapod and Kakuna shouldn't be an issue.

As for Magikarp this what I had in mind. A low stat, high life unit that could roll additional attack dice for every wound it takes using flail. This makes sense theamatically as well. In the show magikarp often attack after getting angry.

[Kaiyu]

This is something I've been wondering about Magikarp and all water pokemon: how are they going to move? Pokemon like Magikarp and Goldeen we might be able rationalize that they can flop around to move 1-3 spaces, but what about Lapras or Tentacool? Or even Wailord? (If you've played Gen III)

[Chardar]

This is something I've been wondering about Magikarp and all water pokemon: how are they going to move? Pokemon like Magikarp and Goldeen we might be able rationalize that they can flop around to move 1-3 spaces, but what about Lapras or Tentacool? Or even Wailord? (If you've played Gen III)

I was thinking it would be like Gale of Darkness where they just sort of float in the air. It was never a big concern there, so I wouldn't worry about it too much here.

[NightSwipe]

Yes, they float in Battle Revolution as well. We could put a reference somewhere that Water-types float.

[Chardar]

There's really nothing else we can do. Either water types are unplayable or we stretch the visual a bit.

[wulfhunter667]

The way I always envisioned it was to have Pokemon without obvious movement types have a low movement and have a power that allows their movement to increase under certain situations, ie, Magikarp and fish-type Pokemon would have a move of 2 or 3 and have it increased by 3 or 4 on water spaces. But I guess it will be up to the individual creator when the time comes.

[White Knight]

This is something I've been wondering about Magikarp and all water pokemon: how are they going to move? Pokemon like Magikarp and Goldeen we might be able rationalize that they can flop around to move 1-3 spaces, but what about Lapras or Tentacool? Or even Wailord? (If you've played Gen III)

I was thinking about this too, especially since I'll be doing Lapras for my next Pokemon. I sort of see Lapras with a move of 6 in the water and a move of 2 on land--basically just flapping forward like a seal. Of course, on most BoV maps, Lapras would take forever just to get to the water.

Which gives us two options:
1) Make more water maps for water Pokemon
2) Stretch our imaginations and let them float or walk

I vote for option 1, although it's not very Classic Scape compatible. I've always thought it weird in the video games (and especially Colossium and Revolution) when the water Pokemon just float there. I think the TV series is much better about it.

[fiddlerjones]

I'm in favor of Option 2. If we make water-types too dependent on water terrain, they'll hardly ever see play in Classic 'Scape. Maybe give them an ability like "Water-Bound: This pokemon does not have to stop when entering a water space. If it does not begin its turn on a water space, reduce its movement by 2 spaces."

Not overly debilitating, but still in keeping with the flavor of an aquatic creature.

[Warlord Alpha]

I'm in favor of Option 2. If we make water-types too dependent on water terrain, they'll hardly ever see play in Classic 'Scape. Maybe give them an ability like "Water-Bound: This pokemon does not have to stop when entering a water space. If it does not begin its turn on a water space, reduce its movement by 2 spaces."

Not overly debilitating, but still in keeping with the flavor of an aquatic creature.

I agree. We can't handicap Pokemon like Goldeen and such by forcing them to always be in water.

The only other option is to allow them to "teleport" from one pond to another or something, like with the water elemental or the drudge.

[White Noise]

There are some water types that don't need to be accounted for, as they look like they could move on land fairly easily. Here's my list of Pokemon that could move on land without any sort of penalty:


Squirtle and evos
Psyduck and Golduck
Poliwag and evos
Slowpoke and evos
Krabby and Kingler
Kabuto and Kabutops
Vaporeon
Totodile and evos
Marill and Azumarill
Wooper and Quagsire
Corsola (it has feet)
Suicune
Mudkip and evos
Lotad and evos
Wingull and Pelliper (which should probably just be given flying anyway)
Surskit
Corphish and Crawdaunt
Spheal (it's known to roll across land)
Piplup and evos
Bibarel
Buisel and Floatzel
Shellos and Gastrodon
Palkia


If we go with option 2, anything that looks like it should be able to move somewhat well on land (but not as fast as in water) should be given a smaller move reduction, IMO. I mean Pokemon like Seel or Sealeo, which should be able to move on land in the same way seals and sea lions do (slow, but more efficient than flopping around randomly).

EDIT: Also, Mantine should probably have some sort of limited flying that kicks in when it leaves the water, because it's known to hop out of the ocean and glide in the air for short periods of time.

[Chardar]

Most of those, such as Krabby, Psyduck, and Spheal will probably be fairly slow already. So it's even less of an issue them.

[White Knight]

Don't forget about Staryu and Starmie. In the TV series they seem to float or dance--and are used on land all the time.

So I starting to look at which Pokemon never are used on land in the TV series.

Water Pokemon that can't really move on land
Tentacool
Tentacruel
Shellder (although it can sort of hop)
Cloyster (although it can sortof hop)
Horsea
Seadra
Goldeen
Seaking
Magikarp

9 (7) Pokemon out of the first 151 isn't a lot--I wouldn't mind making them water bound. And for Goldeen and Seaking, a special ability such as JUMP would work well.

JUMP
One time during its move, at any point during the move, Goldeen may be placed on a water space up to 4 spaces from its starting position. Jump does not use up a movement point.

From Bulbapedia:
"Misty does not use [her Goldeen] very often because it cannot battle or maneuver outside of water. However, in the Pikachu short Pikachu & Pichu, Misty's Goldeen is seen being able to hop around on land to move."

"Near the end of the Kanto adventures, Horsea was feeling ill because Misty wasn't letting it out enough to get any exercise. With no ocean nearby, Misty decided to take it home to Cerulean City, where it could play and swim in her Gym's many aquariums."

"Horsea, like Goldeen, has trouble functioning on land, so she didn't use it much in her adventures. However, when it was used, it tended to be very resourceful - using ink to draw pictures or leave trails. "

[wulfhunter667]

JUMP
One time during its move, at any point during the move, Goldeen may be placed on a water space up to 4 spaces from its starting position. Jump does not use up a movement point.
Interesting idea, but it would have to be a part of, or instead of movement to keep it consistent with Classic Scape.

[fiddlerjones]

Even with the likes of Goldeen, I'm against making it completely or nearly immoblie outside of water. Perhaps a very small move, like 2, and then an ability like Jump but less restrictive. Otherwise, it'll be completely unplayable on some maps. Also, why would Krabby be slow? I don't know about in the Pokemon universe, but crabs are pretty quick.

[NightSwipe]

"Water-Bound: This pokemon does not have to stop when entering a water space. If it does not begin its turn on a water space, reduce its movement by 2 spaces."

Not overly debilitating, but still in keeping with the flavor of an aquatic creature.

I like this idea. It lets the Pokemon in question keep up with everyone, but it's not going to get the Pokemon never drafted for not being able to move.

[White Noise]

Also, why would Krabby be slow? I don't know about in the Pokemon universe, but crabs are pretty quick.
I agree - I'm pretty sure crabs are actually slightly faster on land than in water, because they move in much the same way in either environment, but the drag of the water slows them down.

Why would Psyduck and Spheal be slow? Psyduck's been shown to be able to run at at least a decent speed anyway, and Spheal is supposed to roll along the ground (which should have at least a decent move to it).

[Chardar]

I meant Sealeo. He doesn't look like he would be able to roll. You do have a good point on Krabby though, and I agree that Psyduck has been shown to run, but he doesn't look like it. I guess its something like the "can Charmander reach above his head?" joke. In the grand scale how fast they can move isn't really important, they go however fast the designer says they go.

[wulfhunter667]

Each Water type Pokemon will get whatever treatment the creator feels he needs. I am liking the idea of having fish-like Water types having reduced movement on land and special abilities in water. The Jump idea was great. Maybe even have an ability similiar to Drudge as an alternative...
Enhanced Water Movement
If this (Water Pokemon) ends its normal movement on a water space, you may immediately place it on any empty same-level water space within 5 spaces. If this (Water Pokemon) is engaged when it starts to tunnel, it will take any leaving engagement attacks.
Or something like that. ;)

[White Knight]

According to Misty in Episode #2, [to Team Rocket] "You know as well as I do that a water Pokemon can't battle on land. I was just warming up."

[NightSwipe]

So the "Jump" or "Water-Bound" or "Enhanced Water Movement" sounds perfect for water types, especially if we give them reduced movement on land.

[Chardar]

This is mostly theories and ideas so I figured this thread was the way to go.

Recently in the design I had a suggestion for a Paras squad, which started a mini-firestorm. Though it was quickly put out with an excellent alternative idea from WA it did show that the majority of the project pokemon members are opposed to squads being used in pokescape, but I still like the idea of no squads at all for pokescape.

My thought for a way to implement these is simple. In addition to the current designs we could also create units such as "flock of pidgey, flock of spearow, or flock of zubat". This is probably our best bet for creating squads, which I know most of you are opposed to, but I still think it should be done. Heroes are going to get old after awhile.

[wulfhunter667]

Actually, I am not 100% opposed to the idea of Pokemon Squads. Just not in the first 151. I wouldn't mind seeing a squad or two of Pokemon in a "special pack" after we have completed the first 151, just like a regular HS wave with 6 or so squads of common type Pokemon from the 151, ie, Pidgey, Zubat, Spearow, Magikarp, etc. and special Trainer versions of select Pokemon, ie, Brock's Geodude, Misty's Starmie, etc. But then again, this is waaaaaay in the future we're talking here. Just my :2cents:.

[Chardar]

Like I said it was just a random thought. Here's another.

I propose that we keep the expansions small. Such as four or five in a set, that ensures strict theme and keeps us on our goals because they will be easier to accomplish. Such as for the Brock's Gym set. Brock's Onix, Zubat, Golbat, Geodude, Graveler. This is small and theamatic, which is how I view our expansions.

[wulfhunter667]

Like I said it was just a random thought. Here's another.

I propose that we keep the expansions small. Such as four or five in a set, that ensures strict theme and keeps us on our goals because they will be easier to accomplish. Such as for the Brock's Gym set. Brock's Onix, Zubat, Golbat, Geodude, Graveler. This is small and theamatic, which is how I view our expansions.
Actually, I have had other member's PM me ideas for expansions. When we get to the last round of Pokemon, ie, Charizard, etc, I'll post them somewhere and we can discuss from there. As I remember, the ideas that were presented to me were very thematic and very cool. We'll get there, don't worry. ;)

[Kaiyu]

I understand the drive for readability on the cards, but that just means we need abilities that aren't as wordy and cumbersome, not abilities that are equally wordy and cumbersome and require reference to charts (or markers) in order to use them. You're right - Paras should have Climb x2. So let's simplify its other ability or replace it.

But what if someone has a great ability for a Pokemon, but due to the status effect it doesn't fit on the card? If the status effects were in the rulebook/reference card/markers themselves, we might see good abilities that make the Pokemon more fun to play, rather than two average abilities.

Then we need simpler status effects. If they're taking up half the card, they're too clunky. Putting them on markers or in the rulebook won't make them any more elegant. They do a fine job of mimicking the video games' effects, but they're unnecessarily long-winded and filled with contingencies.

Then we need simpler status effects. If they're taking up half the card, they're too clunky. Putting them on markers or in the rulebook won't make them any more elegant. They do a fine job of mimicking the video games' effects, but they're unnecessarily long-winded and filled with contingencies.

The thing that makes status effects extra clunky is that Heroscape has Squads and Common Heroes. Paras' card was OK until we realized that it didn't account for squads.

And I don't see an easy fix. Pidgey and Abra are common heroes. We will NEVER be able to Paralyze them, or put a Sleep marker on them, or even put a Poison marker on them because it would affect ALL Pidgeys. In Heroscape, there is no way to separate one Pidgey from another.

<== General frustration because there is no easy fix!

Confusion
I've seen 3 versions of Confusion, but I'd like to put it on hold until we get to Kangaskhan (and possibly Dizzy Punch), which will be right after Charmeleon.


Sleep
I've seen 2 options for sleep:

Option #1: Remove an Order Marker from that figure

Pros
- simplified wording
- all figures without OM's on their cards are automatically sleeping (for attacks such as Nightmare and Dream Eater)
- no Sleep Status Marker to keep track of

Cons
- it doesn't carry from round-to-round, so the player knows exactly when it will "wake up"
- affects whole squads, or doesn't affect squads at all
- affects all common heroes, or doesn't affect common heroes at all
- in a one-on-one battle, Haunter could never use Nightmare because the other Pokemon would ALWAYS have an OM on that Pokemon
- similar to Dund

Option #2: Put a Sleep Status Marker on that figure (as it exists on the current Paras card

Pros
- Nightmare can be used on figures with Sleep Markers on them
- thematic with Pokemon
- might last 1 turn, or might last many turns--makes OM placement on Sleeping Pokemon more troublesome
- all figures are assumed to be Awake unless they have a Sleep Marker on their card

Cons
- a lot of wording
- squads and common heroes would need to have a d20 roll for instant kill/no affect
- need to keep track of Sleep Markers


Once we decide on how to handle sleep, we can decide whether it fits with Paralysis on the Paras card. And then we can decide what to do about squads and common heroes on the Paras card.

One way to fix the Abra Pidgey thing is to make them uncommon and then give them a power called common pokemon that states that after revealing an order marker, move any pidgey or abra you control. This gives them the movement of common, and the ability to be affected by sleep/paralysis that other pokemon "enjoy."

Alternatively, we could place the markers on figures, rather than army cards. That would eliminate any confusion about squads and common heroes.

Let the brainstorming commence.

[White Knight]

Since this whole discussion got started because of Paras, I think we should focus on Paralysis and Sleep--especially as they relate to squads.

Fiddler--I really like the idea of placing the marker on the figure and not on the card. Does anyone see any problem with that?

[White Knight]

PARALYSIS
If we were to place a Paralysis Status Marker on a figure instead of on an Army Card, we can apply it to squad figures as well. So here are three options for wording:

Option 1: After revealing an OM
After a player reveals an order marker on an Army Card of a figure with a Paralysis Status Marker, they must roll the 20-sided die for each figure with a Paralysis Status Marker. On a roll of 1-5, that figure cannot move or attack this turn. On a roll of 6-18, that figure’s move value is reduced by 1 for the remainder of the turn. On a roll of 19-20, remove the Paralysis Status Marker from that figure.


Option 2: When a Paralyzed figure is activated
Whenever a Paralyzed figure is activated, roll the 20-sided die. On a roll of 1-5, that figure cannot move or attack this turn. On a roll of 6-18, that figure’s move value is reduced by 1 for the remainder of the turn. On a roll of 19-20, remove the Paralysis Status Marker from that figure.

or

Whenever a figure with a Paralysis Status Marker is activated, roll the 20-sided die. On a roll of 1-5, that figure cannot move or attack this turn. On a roll of 6-18, that figure’s move value is reduced by 1 for the remainder of the turn. On a roll of 19-20, remove the Paralysis Status Marker from that figure.


Option 3: Before Moving or Attacking with a Paralyzed figure
Before moving or attacking with a Paralyzed figure, roll the 20-sided die. On a roll of 1-5, that figure cannot move or attack this turn. On a roll of 6-18, that figure’s move value is reduced by 1 for the remainder of the turn. On a roll of 19-20, remove the Paralysis Status Marker from that figure.


QUESTION: When is a figure "Activated"
I looked for information on "activation" and didn't see anything in the rulebook. I also couldn't find an answer in the forums (at least not easily).

Is this right for Squads?

1) Reveal OM on the Squad card
2) Activate and move squad members one at a time
3) Activate and attack with squad members one at a time

I know that you don't have to attack with the same squad members you just moved. But if you move AND attack with a squad member, is it activated 2x that turn?


Option 4: When a Paralyzed figure is first activated
Whenever a Paralyzed figure is first activated in a turn, roll the 20-sided die. On a roll of 1-5, that figure cannot move or attack this turn. On a roll of 6-18, that figure’s move value is reduced by 1 for the remainder of the turn. On a roll of 19-20, remove the Paralysis Status Marker from that figure.


I think we might need to add wording to the above that says that you only have to roll for Paralysis once per turn.

[Kaiyu]

"Activating" a figure is not officially correct. So I don't recommend doing that. Either do the d20 roll "after revealing an order maker", or "before moving." Of course, this is all assuming we can place markers on figure's themselves. It isn't exactly official either.

[White Knight]

The problem with Option #1 (Order Markers) is that it's a lot of extra wording.

The problem with Option #3 (Before Moving or Attacking) would be that they might have to roll twice the same turn if they move AND attack. If we change the wording to just "before moving with a paralyzed figure", then for common squads you could still attack normally (no d20 roll) with a paralyzed figure as long as you moved a different figure.

I agree that we haven't decided whether to place the status marker on a card or on a figure. But if we go with on the Army Card, we'll need to figure out what happens when "Thunderwave" is used on a Pidgey.
- No effect?
- roll d20 for instant destroy?
- paralyze ALL Pidgeys?

Since Paras has a chance to Paralyze (without wounding), how does Effect Spore affect squads and common heroes?
- Place the Marker on the squad's Army Card
- Place the Marker on a only that squad figure
- Option C (TBD)?

[Kaiyu]

A figures MUST move, even if it is a movement of 0. So the 1-5 roll of losing its turn will still take effect. It doesn't need to include the "or attacking" part.

[NightSwipe]

I think only the figure that was paralyzed should be affected, not the entire squad. Option 4 seems the best.

[White Knight]

A figures MUST move, even if it is a movement of 0. So the 1-5 roll of losing its turn will still take effect. It doesn't need to include the "or attacking" part.

Take the Venoc Vipers as an example. I thought with common squads that you can move 3 Vipers and then attack with the same or 3 different Vipers. Otherwise you could be moving up to 6 Vipers in one turn (3 moving up to 7 spaces and 3 moving 0 spaces).

[Kaiyu]

A figures MUST move, even if it is a movement of 0. So the 1-5 roll of losing its turn will still take effect. It doesn't need to include the "or attacking" part.

Take the Venoc Vipers as an example. I thought with common squads that you can move 3 Vipers and then attack with the same or 3 different Vipers. Otherwise you could be moving up to 6 Vipers in one turn (3 moving up to 7 spaces and 3 moving 0 spaces).
Nope, if you move those first 3 Venoc Vipers, those are also the 3 you must attack with. You can't split it up like that.

[White Knight]

A figures MUST move, even if it is a movement of 0. So the 1-5 roll of losing its turn will still take effect. It doesn't need to include the "or attacking" part.

Take the Venoc Vipers as an example. I thought with common squads that you can move 3 Vipers and then attack with the same or 3 different Vipers. Otherwise you could be moving up to 6 Vipers in one turn (3 moving up to 7 spaces and 3 moving 0 spaces).
Nope, if you move those first 3 Venoc Vipers, those are also the 3 you must attack with. You can't split it up like that.

My bad. I searched the forums this afternoon and saw that if you move with a figure you MUST attack with that figure (or choose not to attack with that figure). So if I move all 3 Vipers, I can't attack with the Vipers I didn't move.

But if I only move 2 Vipers, I can attack with any Viper that did not move. In that case, I activate the first two Vipers when they move, but I activate the last Viper when it attacks. (Or, more technically, I activated it when it moved 0--but I don't decide that it moved 0 until attacks.)

[fiddlerjones]

A figures MUST move, even if it is a movement of 0. So the 1-5 roll of losing its turn will still take effect. It doesn't need to include the "or attacking" part.

Take the Venoc Vipers as an example. I thought with common squads that you can move 3 Vipers and then attack with the same or 3 different Vipers. Otherwise you could be moving up to 6 Vipers in one turn (3 moving up to 7 spaces and 3 moving 0 spaces).
Nope, if you move those first 3 Venoc Vipers, those are also the 3 you must attack with. You can't split it up like that.

My bad. I searched the forums this afternoon and saw that if you move with a figure you MUST attack with that figure (or choose not to attack with that figure). So if I move all 3 Vipers, I can't attack with the Vipers I didn't move.

But if I only move 2 Vipers, I can attack with any Viper that did not move. In that case, I activate the first two Vipers when they move, but I activate the last Viper when it attacks. (Or, more technically, I activated it when it moved 0--but I don't decide that it moved 0 until attacks.)

You move all the squad figures, then attack with all of the squad figures. You first activated the viper when you moved it 0. This was most likely immediately between when you moved its last fellow viper and attacked with the first viper, whether it's this one or a different one.

Also, I like Option 4.

Putting markers on figures isn't tons of official, I know, but it's more official than putting rules text on Status Markers.

[White Knight]

New card for Paras (with Statuses affecting figures, not cards). (Note: I'll fix the "FRENSY" later. If I type in FRENZY, MSE puts in all the wording. I'll turn it off for the final card.)

No Climb
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs185.ash2/44837_464517171756_745086756_6339188_434839_n.jpg

Climb x2
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs193.ash2/45616_464522091756_745086756_6339320_7916801_n.jpg

[NightSwipe]

Looking good.

[White Knight]

Are we ready to take a vote on whether Status Effect Markers are placed on the Figure or on the Army Card?

Option 1: Status Effect Markers are placed on figures (common heroes and squad members can be affected)

Option 2: Status Effect Markers are placed on Army Cards (only affects uncommon/unique heroes)

[Chardar]

If we place the markers on figures how will spell out what they do on the marker?

[fiddlerjones]

If we place the markers on figures how will spell out what they do on the marker?

That's the point: we won't. It'll be written out in the ability itself.

If we're officially voting, then I'm voting Option #1.

[White Knight]

If we place the markers on figures how will spell out what they do on the marker?

See the Paras example above. We write out all effects on the cards.

[mac122]

For Status Effects that would not necessarily wound, it makes sense to put the markers on the figures. Otherwise, effects like Sleep would either...
1. ...not be usable against squads - squaddies are generally weaker than heroes and should be affected, IMO.
or
2. ...would have to affect an entire squad even if only one member was attacked - doesn't feel right and isn't thematic
or
3. ...would have to cause a wound - not thematic

Option #1

[BiggaBullfrog]

Option 1

[Kaiyu]

Before we start voting I think we need to seriously question whether or not doing this is something we can do within the limits of the Heroscape rules. Clearly we'd have to put section in the rules book about this, but CAN we do it if we're trying to make this 100% compatible with Heroscape? You guys are willing to break the rules of Heroscape (putting markers on figures) before breaking tradition (putting the status effects in the rulebook instead of the card).

[Chardar]

I'm assuming that this means we will be placing markers on the base of the figure. This makes sense in theory, but will the markers fit on the newer bases? Either way I think it's the best option 1.

[Warlord Alpha]

I think they mean under the base of the figure. It is going to be a pain to move figures like that.

[Chardar]

Before we start voting I think we need to seriously question whether or not doing this is something we can do within the limits of the Heroscape rules. Clearly we'd have to put section in the rules book about this, but CAN we do it if we're trying to make this 100% compatible with Heroscape? You guys are willing to break the rules of Heroscape (putting markers on figures) before breaking tradition (putting the status effects in the rulebook instead of the card).

I'm willing to do anything to keep the powers spelled out on the card. I honestly think that it should just kill a squad figure instead of affecting it, but that's not what the community wants. So I'm going with the next best thing.

[White Knight]

Before we start voting I think we need to seriously question whether or not doing this is something we can do within the limits of the Heroscape rules. Clearly we'd have to put section in the rules book about this, but CAN we do it if we're trying to make this 100% compatible with Heroscape? You guys are willing to break the rules of Heroscape (putting markers on figures) before breaking tradition (putting the status effects in the rulebook instead of the card).

Putting markers on figures is acceptable in order to differentiate between uncommon heroes.

Killing squadies and common heroes is still a possibility--that's why we're getting everyone's input. But you would need double wording on every card: one set of words to tell what to do with squads/commons, and another set of words for uncommons/uniques.

Taking the wording off the cards and putting it onto the status markers doesn't solve the squads/common issue. Either we would put the status marker (with the wording) on the figure or just destroy the squad/common. Instant-death for squads and common heroes for Thunderwave! From range!

[Kroz]

Before we start voting I think we need to seriously question whether or not doing this is something we can do within the limits of the Heroscape rules. Clearly we'd have to put section in the rules book about this, but CAN we do it if we're trying to make this 100% compatible with Heroscape? You guys are willing to break the rules of Heroscape (putting markers on figures) before breaking tradition (putting the status effects in the rulebook instead of the card).

I agree with Kaiyu on this one. I think that if we start putting markers onto the bases of figures, then those that vote for it would be nullifying any argument against having the words off the cards and into the rule book.

I don't want to turn this in a debate about the wording but to me it seems contradictory. I will say one thing though, all the powers on the cards break the rules, that's their purpose. Still, by putting the status effects in the rules book it would be summarizing a rule and making it general thus making it easier like Marvel did with their super strength symbol. It was explained in the books and wording was left off.

In summary, do I think that putting markers on just figures works? Yes.
Do I think that it should be used, Yes.
I merely think that supporting this idea but rejecting the issue of putting the wording into the rule books is a contradiction. (Like starburst it's solid, but juicy, like a liquid ;) ) Anyways jokes aside.

Anyways, the only problem I saw with this and then I found out why it wasn't a problem was that with common squads you could just not activate that figure, and then I thought, well then, that just means that's one less figure you have to worry about.

[Chardar]

I'd prefer we just make it affect all squad figures for simplicity. That's how it's handled in classic, and it works fine. Mechanics over theme. Keep it simple.

[White Knight]

We really need to decide on whether to put status markers on figures or on army cards, and whether to let squad members and common heroes be affected or not. So I pulled together all the options and put them onto a hypothetical Butterfree card.

Option #SM1: Place the Marker on the figure (affects squads/commons)
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs409.snc4/47240_465983781756_745086756_6382156_7734167_n.jpg


Option #SM2: Place the Marker on the Army Card (instant-destroy for squads/commons)
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs212.ash2/47524_465983811756_745086756_6382157_2348287_n.jpg


Option #SM3: Place the Marker on the Army Card (squads/commons unaffected)
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs412.snc4/47524_465983816756_745086756_6382158_2606438_n.jpg


Option #SM4: Place the Marker on the Army Card (affects the whole squad/all commons)
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs412.snc4/47524_465983821756_745086756_6382159_3928405_n.jpg

Lets get some comments on these and then we can vote. Kroz said it best: "All powers on cards break the rules."

I prefer Option #SM1--placing the marker on the figure. The wording is short. It's not an instant kill for Pidgey but it does affect Pidgey. And it only affects the one Pidgey you've targeted.

[fiddlerjones]

I vote for Option SM1. It conserves space while maintaining flavor.

[BiggaBullfrog]

I think we could also throw in the option of Unique vs Common; Unique Heroes/Squads are affected, Common Heroes/Squads aren't. This has already been done somewhat in classic with Morsbane (and a couple others I think).

[Kaiyu]

Again, there is no such this as "first activating" a figure. After revealing an order marker on a squad army card you must move as many figures that are on the card, even if that movement is zero. And it is those figures you must attack with. Just because most people don't first announce which of their squad members just moved zero, is no reason to cater to their mistake.

If you're allowing option SM1, then you need to also allow putting status effects in the rulebook/stats marker as an option. If you agree that special powers break the rules, then you can't argue against it.

[Chardar]

Honestly I will go for 2, 3, or 4. I do not like the idea of placing markers on figures. It's just too much.

And Kaiyu. He doesn't need to put that option up because it was already discussed months ago. We are leaving it on the card as per the decison when we first started the project.

[Kaiyu]

And Kaiyu. He doesn't need to put that option up because it was already discussed months ago. We are leaving it on the card as per the decison when we first started the project.
The reason this discussion got pulled to the Brainstorming thread was because we realized that our current method wasn't going to work. If we're all of a sudden allowed to do some radical option that is completely outside the boundaries of the Heroscape game mechanics... then we can leave the text off the cards.

[Chardar]

And Kaiyu. He doesn't need to put that option up because it was already discussed months ago. We are leaving it on the card as per the decison when we first started the project.
The reason this discussion got pulled to the Brainstorming thread was because we realized that our current method wasn't going to work. If we're all of a sudden allowed to do some radical option that is completely outside the boundaries of the Heroscape game mechanics... then we can leave the text off the cards.

I don't see it. Could you explain to me how our current method isn't going to work?

[Kaiyu]

And Kaiyu. He doesn't need to put that option up because it was already discussed months ago. We are leaving it on the card as per the decison when we first started the project.
The reason this discussion got pulled to the Brainstorming thread was because we realized that our current method wasn't going to work. If we're all of a sudden allowed to do some radical option that is completely outside the boundaries of the Heroscape game mechanics... then we can leave the text off the cards.

I don't see it. Could you explain to me how our current method isn't going to work?
It was your Paras that started this whole thing? Haven't you been paying attention? The conversation starts here (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1183775#post1183775) and the fact that the card can't even fit Climb x2 even after having such small text size.

[Chardar]

I know that. I also stated that Climb x2 wasn't completely necassary. All I'm seeing is a reason for less status effects and more unique powers such as the ones on Charmeleon. I agree that we won't have as much room for status effects, but I don't think that's such a bad thing.

[White Knight]

All right, so....who's ready to vote YES to putting the status effects in the rulebook?

1) I'm not 100% sure we can vote on this thread.
2) We have to be able to appeal an older vote before we vote again.

So first, we should vote on a process on how to appeal previous votes.

I wasn't actually calling a vote, I was just trying to get the discussion back on track. I really, really want this to change though. I don't care if we don't put statuses on every card. I don't care if nothing changes about what we have done so far. I just want these options to be available to us in the future.
I think we have debated and talked about this enough. WA, it's not going to change, no matter how badly you want it too. It has been voted on once and will not be voted on again.

On any matter that has nothing to do with a card in creation or playtesting, only the Group Moderator may call for a vote.
You've had your time to try to reconvince people you are right and from what I am seeing, it's not happening. You want a revote though? Fine. If 8 Trainers or Junior Trainers pm me directly and call for a revote, then we will have a revote. Otherwise, consider this issue resolved.


And Kaiyu. He doesn't need to put that option up because it was already discussed months ago. We are leaving it on the card as per the decison when we first started the project.
The reason this discussion got pulled to the Brainstorming thread was because we realized that our current method wasn't going to work. If we're all of a sudden allowed to do some radical option that is completely outside the boundaries of the Heroscape game mechanics... then we can leave the text off the cards.

Back on page 5 of this thread the option was there to put Status Effects on glyphs/in the rulebook instead of on the cards. Apparently there were not the 8 votes required to re-visit this. I also went back to the original thread and saw that mac had suggested (in April) a 70% vote to overturn a previous vote.

PM wulf if you think we need to take the Status Effects off the cards.

Otherwise, keeping Status Effects on the cards:
1) was already voted on
2) keeps Pokemon abilities from getting overly complex (and forces us into leaner, cleaner designs)
3) maintains the simplicity of Heroscape

If anyone has forgotten all this, go back to pages 2-5 of this thread for an excellent discussion.

Now, lets get back to discussing Status Effect Markers on figures or on Army Cards. (see Butterfree examples above).

[White Knight]

Again, there is no such this as "first activating" a figure.

We can change the wording to "Before moving or attacking with a figure with a Paralysis Status Marker... ...A figure only needs to roll for Paralysis once a turn."

But "activating a figure" is used so freely around these forums that we could just add a definition of "activating" to our rulebook.

Or I'm sure kaiyu can come up with some wording to simplify it but keep it Heroscape official. Maybe "before moving" is enough.

[Kaiyu]

Maybe "before moving" is enough.
It is.

[fiddlerjones]

I know that. I also stated that Climb x2 wasn't completely necassary. All I'm seeing is a reason for less status effects and more unique powers such as the ones on Charmeleon. I agree that we won't have as much room for status effects, but I don't think that's such a bad thing.

This is very true. I agree. However, putting the markers on figures also keeps status effects from becoming too cumbersome by requiring three or four contingencies in order to work properly on all enemy figures.

Since people are opposed to using vastly simplified status effects, partially because we've already voted some of the regular type into canon, then putting markers on the figures directly is the next best thing.

[Chardar]

Paras was an experiment. I can and will change the design to only include sleep if people want me to. All this does is show that we won't want figures with multiple status effects very often. Which I see nothing wrong with.

I fought the war over the markers once already. It was probably the hardest debate that I've ever had on these forums, and I don't want to be fighting it again. So I apologize to anyone if I seem a bit grouchy.

[fiddlerjones]

I don't blame you, Chardar. I really don't want to revisit this debate either. After all, we settled the issue awhile back. I say we vote on the options presented earlier and be done with it.

[NightSwipe]

I agree with Fiddler.

[BurnyFlame]

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs409.snc4/47240_465983781756_745086756_6382156_7734167_n.jpg



A bit off topic, but is Butteryfly really his species?

Also, without reading too much of this thread, it really would be better if every card simply had a Weakness/Resistance power. For instance: "Butterfree rolls an additional attack and defense against Grass-type Pokemon (etc.) and rolls one fewer attack and defense against Fire-type (etc.) Pokemon." If you are going to use symbols, why don't you use a symbol for the Flying ability? The will leave more space for the wording of powers.

[Chardar]

We've already decided how weakness, resistance, immunity works, but I don't believe the symbol has. I know that's how the C3G does it, so that's a good idea.

[fiddlerjones]

A bit off topic, but is Butteryfly really his species?[/I]

Also, without reading too much of this thread, it really would be better if every card simply had a Weakness/Resistance power. For instance: "Butterfree rolls an additional attack and defense against Grass-type Pokemon (etc.) and rolls one fewer attack and defense against Fire-type (etc.) Pokemon." If you are going to use symbols, why don't you use a symbol for the Flying ability? The will leave more space for the wording of powers.

Right when we began the project we established conventions like W/R/I and Status Effects. We elected to put W/R/I in symbols because it isn't used in Classic Heroscape. In Pokescape, it's easy to tell what the symbols do from a simple line in the rulebook. In Heroscape, the symbols are unobtrusive flavor. Simply put, the convention we established was "If it applies to Classic Heroscape, we write it out on the card."

[White Knight]

Paras was an experiment. I can and will change the design to only include sleep if people want me to. All this does is show that we won't want figures with multiple status effects very often. Which I see nothing wrong with.

Actually, I really like Effect Spore the way you have it. I can just picture someone attacking a Paras and creating a cloud of blue spores that put it to sleep or yellow spores that paralyze it (colors added for affect). :D

[Chardar]

Paras was an experiment. I can and will change the design to only include sleep if people want me to. All this does is show that we won't want figures with multiple status effects very often. Which I see nothing wrong with.

Actually, I really like Effect Spore the way you have it. I can just picture someone attacking a Paras and creating a cloud of blue spores that put it to sleep or yellow spores that paralyze it (colors added for affect). :D

I like to too. I just wanted to make it understood that Paras was the exception, not the rule. Parasect will be much simpler.

[fiddlerjones]

Paras was an experiment. I can and will change the design to only include sleep if people want me to. All this does is show that we won't want figures with multiple status effects very often. Which I see nothing wrong with.

Actually, I really like Effect Spore the way you have it. I can just picture someone attacking a Paras and creating a cloud of blue spores that put it to sleep or yellow spores that paralyze it (colors added for affect). :D

I like to too. I just wanted to make it understood that Paras was the exception, not the rule. Parasect will be much simpler.

I don't have a problem with Paras at all. It's a relatively simple pokemon in concept, if not in execution. Its ability is complicated, but as it's the ONLY ability (aside from maybe Climb x2), that's fine. Looking forward to Parasect.

[White Knight]

Paras Concepts

I know that Scyther and Charmeleon are still in playtesting, but I'd like to keep Paras moving and make some decisions on Status Markers.

Here are the options, then, that we have for Paras:
(any spelling/format mistakes will be fixed prior to playtesting)

Option P1: Status Markers on Figures (affects squads, commons, uncommons, and heroes)
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs406.snc4/46881_466877721756_745086756_6405148_8008218_n.jpg

Option P2: Status Markers on Army Cards (does not affect squads/common heroes)
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs426.snc4/46881_466877731756_745086756_6405150_4286003_n.jpg

Option P3: Status Markers on Army Cards (instant-destroy possibility for squad members and common heroes)
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs426.snc4/46881_466877726756_745086756_6405149_957163_n.jpg


Option P4: Status Markers on Army Cards (affects all figures in a squad and all common heroes at the same time)
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs185.ash2/44818_466877661756_745086756_6405147_1952946_n.jpg


I don't know whether I can call for a vote to move this Paras to playtesting (when a spot opens up) or if wulf needs to call the vote, since it affects rules on Status Markers.

Option P1 (Status Markers on figures) has simple wording and is very thematic, but it requires placing the markers on the figure itself.

Option P2 (Paralysis and Sleep don't affect squads/common heroes) allows us to place the markers on the cards, but it has more wording and common heroes such as Pidgey and Abra could NEVER be paralyzed or put to sleep. It also lessens the power of paralysis and sleep.

Option P3 (chance for instant-destroy for squads/common heroes) keeps sleep and paralysis powerful against squads and common heroes, and keeps the markers on the cards, but it has more wording and common heroes could NEVER be put to sleep.

Option P4 (affects all squads members/all common heroes) keeps the markers on the cards and allows all figures to be paralyzed/put to sleep. It also has simple wording. But it is not very thematic (if you paralyze one Pidgey, you've also paralyzed that other Pidgey on the far side of the map) and we'll need to evaluate its power against multiple squads and common heroes. One Paras Poisoning or Paralyzing 4x 4th Mass could be a game-changer.

We've already had pages of discussion on this.

If we're allowed to vote on this, I choose Option P1: Markers on figures.

[minimoose38]

Paras looks very good (except for missing W/I/R but I am sure that will come later.). As far as a vote for status markers, I would vote Option 1. Option 1 is a little clunky physically in having to keep markers on the figures bases, but the other options are far worse.

[NightSwipe]

^^ I agree. I prefer Option 1 to all others.

[Chardar]

Option four. I think it's slightly absurd to put markers on figures. It's simple in concept, but think of how long it will take to move an entire squad that's afflicting with these markers, not to mention bonding. It will take forever and be a major inconvience to actual play. I know that any unit that used these markers would be very unpopular at my table just because of the inconvience. What about ladders or custom terrain? The small amount of realism isn't worth the trouble.

[fiddlerjones]

The small amount of realism isn't worth the trouble.

This was my case against status effects that use markers at all. It really isn't that difficult to mark the figures one way or another, and glyphlike markers are easy enough to use. There is precedent, after all, with more than one copy of the same uncommon hero.

[NightSwipe]

I was under the assumption that the markers would be like Morsbane or wound markers.

[fiddlerjones]

I'm sure we could find an effective means to put the markers directly on the figures. Not overly concerned about the feasibility.

[Kaiyu]

I thought it was said before that the markers would be glyph shaped and sized that you would put the base of the figure on top of it. While moving you would simply lift up the figure, move the marker, and place the figure back down on top. This however isn't the problem... the instant we add Heroscape mechanics to the game, this thread belongs in the "Other Customizations and HS Additions" folder.

[White Knight]

I thought it was said before that the markers would be glyph shaped and sized that you would put the base of the figure on top of it. While moving you would simply lift up the figure, move the marker, and place the figure back down on top. This however isn't the problem... the instant we add Heroscape mechanics to the game, this thread belongs in the "Other Customizations and HS Additions" folder.

There are 4 options so far (3 of which put markers on army cards). And I'd be willing to make a card to show for a 5th or 6th option if someone wants to make a different version of Effect Spore.

Please, if someone doesn't like the ideas presented so far, by all means present your own idea (or an idea you've stolen from your kids or roommate). But lets not just stall the voting process if there are no other ideas. We need solutions.

And we haven't decided on Status Marker size/shape yet. Most people seemed to like WA's hex glyph-sized markers, but that was before this discussion and nothing was finalized.

[Chardar]

I was under the assumption that the markers would be like Morsbane or wound markers.

If they go on the cards they will be. If they go on figures then they will be WA's hex sized.

[Warlord Alpha]

Nah, no matter what they are always going to be glyph sized and shaped. They need to be that big so I can fit the effect description on them. This (http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg226/WarlordAlpha/Burntokenv3.png) is an old concept I made, try printing it off to get an idea for it.

[fiddlerjones]

I'm a fan of the effect on the marker as a reference, so long as it's also spelled out on the card. Glyph size and shape seems workable though. Not too hard to deal with, and they prevent status effects from becoming Walls o' Text and overcomplicated.

[White Knight]

fiddler, you've always been an advocate for eliminating status markers and making effects single-turn. I wanted to put together your simplified effects as a 5th voting option (Sleep and Paralysis for Effect Spore), so I've been trying to collect the old ideas.

POISON
We have an example in Poison Sting Special Attack:
POISON STING SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1 Attack 4. If Sujoah inflicts at least 1 wound with Poison Sting Special Attack, roll the 20-sided die for Poison Damage. If you roll 1-9, the defending figure receives no additional wounds for Poison Damage. If you roll 10-19, add 1 additional wound marker to the defending figure's Army Card , and roll again for Poison Damage. If you roll a 20, destroy the defending figure.

CONFUSION
Take an immediate turn with that figure, or at least take an immediate move.

SLEEP
Remove one or more order markers (figures without markers are considered asleep).

PARALYSIS
Remove one or more order markers???

BURN
Possibly extra damage like Poison.

FREEZE
Remove one or more order markers???

If we went to instant effects, I'm wondering how Paralysis, Sleep, and Freeze would be different from each other.

[White Knight]

Note: The above list is only an alternative if we can't come to a consensus on one of the options about or if someone just really wants to eliminate the status markers altogether.

CURRENT VOTE
Option P1: 3 votes
Option P4: 1 vote

And 1 vehemently opposed to Option P1.

[fiddlerjones]

WK, thanks for putting those together. Burn and Paralysis are pretty well set already, and I'm ok with them having markers (though really, burn and poison should probably just be a d20 roll for an extra wound or two). If we're doing burn with the marker, poison probably should be too. As for Freeze, we could still use a marker but make it simpler. Something like:

Ice Beam Special Attack
Range 6, Attack 4.
If Ice Beam Special Attack inflicts at least one wound, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll an 11 or higher, place a Freeze Status Marker on the targeted figure's army card. Players can't reveal order markers on or assign order markers to figures with Freeze Status Markers on their cards. Each round, before assigning order markers, each player rolls the 20-sided die for each card he controls with a Freeze Status Marker. On a roll of 11 or higher, remove the marker.

OK so maybe that's not actually simpler, but I like that particular implementation. Since we've already started down the Status Marker road, it's probably a good idea to stick with that trend for the most part. That said, we don't need to use markers for every status. Confusion, for example, works fine as just a one-shot ability like immediately taking a turn with the figure or kaiyu's move+order marker removal idea.

[wulfhunter667]

Well, I suppose it's time I chime in on the subject at hand.
I hate to be the lone voice against the crowd, but I had to say, I am opposed to all of this Status Marker whatchamajiggy brujah. I have been from the very start. Paras has about brought us to another stand off, with one side for Status Markers on cards and one for Status markers on figures. I do not like either. I honestly and wholeheartedly believe we should send Paras back to Design and start fresh with no Status effects at all. When the Status Effect becomes to difficult to design on the card, it's time to redesign, IMHO. But then, that's not what all of you want.
For now, I am going to stay out of the remainder of this discussion. I have given you my option and I'm out. Nothing personal and do not take this the wrong way, but I honestly feel all of the options presented suck and would be to difficult to implement.
In the meantime, I'm back to the other threads to contribute as usual.

PS Before anyone gets all huffy and tries to peg me for a punk for bowing out of this discussion, I have stated how I honestly feel about the topic and have nothing further to add. So for the individual who negative repped me last time I stated my option, don't bother doing it this time unless you're going to sign it. THAT'S the punk out. At least you know how I feel about it in public and don't have to do it anonymously. Just saying.