The Book of Madame HYDRA

[Hahma]

The Book of Madame HYDRA

C3G MARVEL WAVE 5
WORLD'S VILEST

http://c3ggames.com/C3G/released/cards/jpg/C3G_MadameHydra_comic.jpg

Comic PDF (http://c3ggames.com/C3G/released/cards/pdf/C3G_MadameHydra_comic.pdf)

http://c3ggames.com/C3G/released/cards/jpg/C3G_MadameHydra_mini.jpg

Mini PDF (http://c3ggames.com/C3G/released/cards/pdf/C3G_MadameHydra_mini.pdf)

The figure used for this unit is a Heroclix figure from the Xplosion set.
Its model number and name are #031-033 / Viper.
_________________________________________________________________
Character Bio - Madame Hydra was orphaned as a child in Hungary and was among 12 children taken in by HYDRA (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=31085). She was raised and trained for 22 years by Commander Kraken and was his best student. She rose up through the ranks of HYDRA and eventually attained the title Madame Hydra and became the leader of HYDRA when Baron von Strucker (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=34628) was believed dead. She battled Captain America (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=35281) many times and after one time she was believed to be dead but had been kidnapped by the Space Phantom. When she returned, she broke ties with HYDRA for a while and assassinated a criminal named Viper and took his name. She's run criminal and terrorist organizations ever since and many times has attempted to kill thousands, if not millions of people with deadly gas or poisoned water systems. Her nihilistic ways have made it hard for other villains to work with her as she enjoys spreading death around her. She has rejoined HYDRA and only recently has resumed the name Madame Hydra and is among one of a few leaders of HYDRA.
_________________________________________________________________



-Rulings and Clarifications-
N/A_________________________________________________________________

-Combinations and Synergies-

Synergy Benefits Received


Classic:
N/AMarvel:
N/AC3G:
With Necessary Sacrifices, Madame HYDRA may benefit from an adjacent Terrorist or Criminal in her army. Current Terrorist or Criminal figures include: Absorbing Man (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=32580), Bad Cops (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=36225), Bodyguard (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=32127), Clayface (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=37819), Doctor Octopus (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=36114), Electro (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=33139), Hired Guns (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=32535), HYDRA Agents (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=31085), Intergang Agents (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=40000), Joker Goons (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=44173), Killer Croc (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=34910), Lex Luthor (Battle Suit) (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=33168), Metallo (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=37620), Mysterio (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=37460), Parasite (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=37702), Rhino (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=38127), Sandman (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=38148), Scarecrow (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=34784), Scorpion (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=38911), Street Thugs (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=28629), Trapster (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=34242), Wizard (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=39945).
As a Unique Human Hero, Madame HYDRA may be healed by Alfred Pennywoth's (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=30311) Field Medic special power.
As a Ruthless Mastermind, Madame HYDRA may take a turn after HYDRA Agents (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=31085) with their Ruthless Mastermind Bonding special power.
As a Ruthless Mastermind, Madame HYDRA can use the Glyph of Cosmic Cube (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=34733) without taking a wound.
Synergy Benefits Offered


Classic:
N/AMarvel:
N/AC3G:
As Terrorists, HYDRA Agents (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=31085) may benefit from Madame HYDRA's Lead By Example special power.
As a Human, Madame HYDRA allows adjacent friendly Civilians (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=967599) to roll an additional attack and defense die due to their Strength in Numbers special power.
As a Mastermind, after revealing an Order Marker on and instead of moving with Madame HYDRA, you may move up to 3 Bodyguards (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=32127) you control with the Security Detail special power.
As a Mastermind, after revealing an Order Marker on and instead of attacking with Madame HYDRA, you may attack with the Hired Guns (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=32535) with the Trigger Happy special power.
As a Mastermind, Madame HYDRA can add 1 to Talia al Ghul's (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=38046) Attack number via her Divided Loyalty special power.
_________________________________________________________________



-Strategy, Tactics and Tips-
N/A
-Heroscapers Community Contributions-

Initial Playtest: Hahma (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1118649&postcount=39)
Initial Playtest After Revision: Bats (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1192472&postcount=148)
Second Playtest: Hidicul (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1197631&postcount=195)

[Hahma]

6/16 - Viper thread started. Griff and Bats pointed out issues with Command Tactics and different ideas to replace that one were brainstormed.

6/17 - Spidey thought it might be neat for her to have a power to be able to drop squad figures onto the map like the AE, but it was suggested by others that a power like that might be better used for a figure like Nick Fury and even then be careful of the power level it could bring. Following up on one of Bats' suggestions for a new power for Viper to replace Command Tactics, I based a new power for her off of the MacDirk Warriors' "Highland Fury" special power and called it Hail Hydra, as suggested by Griffin.

6/18 - Happy Birthday to me. Griff convinced me to go with a more iconic power for Viper in a poisonous type power to replace Teleportation Ring. We brainstormed and Griff came up with a version of Venomous Strikes Special Attack that I really liked and I updated the first post with the new special attack.

6/22 - Initial playtest done and posted.

6/27 - Sent to ERB members to begin that phase. Response from Aldin with concerns regarding Sacrifices Must Be Made being too powerful, especially with cheap squaddies such as Rats, Marro Dividers, Zombies etc.

6/28 - Bats and Griff agree with Aldin's assessment regarding Sacrifices Must Be Made being too powerful. Bats also suggested shortening power title to Necessary Sacrifices and limiting it's use to Hydra Agents only. I updated the first post with new power title and restricted Necessary Sacrifices to Hydra Agents only.

6/29 - ERB phase done with only one response (Aldin). I proposed putting Viper on hold and kept from being sent to playtest phase until Hydra Agents are completed so that she can be fully playtested to access her Necessary Sacrifices power. Changed name from Viper to Madame Hydra as it makes more sense now.

6/30 - Changed some things on first post. Made Lead By Example power restricted to only boost Terrorist common squad figures to be consistent with changed Necessary Sacrifices and also to keep it from being too powerful by boosting certain common squad figures.

[Griffin]

COMMAND TACTICS- After revealing an Order Marker on this card, if Viper does not attack this turn, you may instead attack with up to 3 figures you control from the same Unique Squad.
But I am planning on creating the "Hired Guns" for the Criminal Faction, and their power is:
Shoot Out
After revealing an Order Marker on any Crimelord or Master Mind you control, instead of attacking with that Crimelord or Master Mind, you may attack with Hired Guns.

So with the way you have Viper's wording, not only would it be redundant, but also conflicting with SHOOT OUT. I wish I had a better suggestion right now, but I don't, sorry.

TELEPORTATION RING -Instead of moving Viper normally, you may choose any empty space that is up to 2 levels above or below her base and within 8 spaces of Viper. Place Viper on the chosen space. When Viper starts to teleport, if she is engaged she will not take any leaving engagement attacks. Cool, but I had no idea that she even had this until you had told me on the phone. Are you sure that this is iconic enough?

SACRIFICES MUST BE MADE - Anytime Viper rolls defense dice against an attack and would receive 1 or more wounds, choose 1 figure you control adjacent to Viper. Instead of giving any wounds to Viper, you may give the chosen figure all wounds Viper would have received from that attack. I like this theme, and I know it is thematic, but it still seems too similar to the Cops for my taste. Could you possibly alter it slightly to make it a bit more unique to her? Sorry I don't have any great ideas right now, I really am.

[IAmBatman]

I think Command Tactics should only work with a specific type of Unique Squad, like "Terrorists" or something. Otherwise we run into the possibility of having before/after/during attacking powers on the chosen Unique Squad and having interpretive issues as to which powers come into play or not.
I dig the theme on the powers here - she seems like fun.
What's with you guys switching the order of the range and attack values lately, though?

[Hahma]

COMMAND TACTICS- After revealing an Order Marker on this card, if Viper does not attack this turn, you may instead attack with up to 3 figures you control from the same Unique Squad.But I am planning on creating the "Hired Guns" for the Criminal Faction, and their power is:
Shoot Out
After revealing an Order Marker on any Crimelord or Master Mind you control, instead of attacking with that Crimelord or Master Mind, you may attack with Hired Guns.

So with the way you have Viper's wording, not only would it be redundant, but also conflicting with SHOOT OUT. I wish I had a better suggestion right now, but I don't, sorry.

TELEPORTATION RING -Instead of moving Viper normally, you may choose any empty space that is up to 2 levels above or below her base and within 8 spaces of Viper. Place Viper on the chosen space. When Viper starts to teleport, if she is engaged she will not take any leaving engagement attacks. Cool, but I had no idea that she even had this until you had told me on the phone. Are you sure that this is iconic enough?

SACRIFICES MUST BE MADE - Anytime Viper rolls defense dice against an attack and would receive 1 or more wounds, choose 1 figure you control adjacent to Viper. Instead of giving any wounds to Viper, you may give the chosen figure all wounds Viper would have received from that attack. I like this theme, and I know it is thematic, but it still seems too similar to the Cops for my taste. Could you possibly alter it slightly to make it a bit more unique to her? Sorry I don't have any great ideas right now, I really am.

Well at least her base stats seem okay...so far :)

For Command Tactics - I'll work on something different for that somehow.

As for Teleportation Ring being iconic - I don't know how iconic it is but I thought it was a cool/fun power to give her considering she's used one. Here's a list of her powers and abilities to choose from. I had thought about using the poison darts/fangs type attack and maybe that would work instead of Command Tactics.

From Wiki:
"Viper has no superhuman abilities but her strength, speed, reflexes, agility, dexterity, coordination, balance, and endurance are of the order of an Olympic athlete. She is a great swordswoman and even greater markswoman with most long range weapons, and has extensive training in hand-to-hand combat. Viper occasionally employs poisoned weapons with snake-motifs, such as venomous darts or artificial fangs filled with poison. She utilizes experimental weaponry, including a ring that enables teleportation, and in X-Treme X-Men (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Treme_X-Men) [volume & issue needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources)], she made use of razor-sharp claw attachments apparently built into her gloves. A brilliant strategist and tactician with extensive combat tactical experience, Viper is highly skilled in the management of criminal organizations and very well connected in the international criminal underworld. She is also a master of stealth and espionage. Perhaps her greatest strengths are her influence, the financial resources at her disposal due to her stature in organized crime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organized_crime), and an uncanny luck which has allowed her to cheat death in situations where lesser people would have died. Viper may or may not have supernaturally augmented longevity.
Viper is usually armed with various ray pistols and conventional handguns. She formerly possessed a teleportation ring. She has also used various other special weaponry, including poison-tipped throwing darts, knives, and whips. Inside the hollow caps of her teeth, which she had put on her canines to make them sharp and elongated, is a special poison to which she has an immunity."



Regarding Sacrifices Must Be Made - well...it's different than the Cops in that Cops can take wounds for anyone, but Viper is the only one helped by SMBM. It's also different in that she can give 3 wounds to Hulk if she wants to enrage him, if he's adjacent to her and in her army. She can give the wounds to Thorgrim, Finn or Eldgrim if she wants to. She can most likely give the wounds to HYDRA Agents. Sure the power is similar to Cops power but would play different. Cops are drafted for that reason and you don't mind losing a Cop to save a hero, but you might have to make some tough choices or strategic ones will be available IMO for SMBM. How many different d20 defensive powers are there that are similar? Evasive Strike, Spidey Sense, Spider Sense, Stray, Radar Sense. They are similar but are thematic. What about the different Leaps or Grapple/Swing-Lines? What about 1 shield defenses or Tough? I mean, eventually there are going to be similar powers on cards because in the superhero world, so many heroes/villains have similar powers/abilities.



I think Command Tactics should only work with a specific type of Unique Squad, like "Terrorists" or something. Otherwise we run into the possibility of having before/after/during attacking powers on the chosen Unique Squad and having interpretive issues as to which powers come into play or not.
I dig the theme on the powers here - she seems like fun.
What's with you guys switching the order of the range and attack values lately, though?


Yeah, I can totally see the issue with Unique Heroes. I was trying to find something different but forgot the issues they can have. I had tried having the power work with Hydra Agents, but when doing some light playtesting with her and some Hydra Agents, I didn't see why she'd every use it when they have Ruthless Mastermind Bonding. Why only move her and only attack with the Hydra Agents when you can take a full turn with each with Ruthless Mastermind Bonding? So I looked a different way. The only problem I see with using the power for a Unique Squad of Terrorists, is that I don't know who a US of Terrorists would be. Would they have to be some generic squad of Terrorists? Being Unique, that would kind of limit the power only working on one unit and how effective or useful would that be? Also, we might have trouble finding more figures for generic units. I don't know, we'll have to see. I might just try to scrap the how power and maybe giver her the Venomous Special Attack I had been thinking about.

[IAmBatman]

I love Sacrifices Must Be Made, personally - and I love your explanation of it. :-)
Do HYDRA Agents have to have Ruthless Mastermind bonding? Is that something we might reconsider to make a power like this more workable?

[Hahma]

I love Sacrifices Must Be Made, personally - and I love your explanation of it. :-)
Do HYDRA Agents have to have Ruthless Mastermind bonding? Is that something we might reconsider to make a power like this more workable?

Thanks for SMBM love :D

Regarding Ruthless Mastermind bonding. It was kind of a key tie in to get more options for using HYDRA Agents with Red Skull, Viper and Baron Strucker, as all of them have had leadership roles in HYDRA. I was also hoping it could help give Red Skull more use as an attack option instead of sitting back and just directing things. Also, from what I've read in recent comics with HYDRA vs. SHIELD in Secret Warriors, the agents went in first and the leaders followed, doing their thing.

I have been trying to work on some other powers in place of Command Tactics.

One could be

Target Assignment - At the start of the game, choose an opponent's unique hero or a destructible object as the Target Assignment. As long as Viper remains in the game, any Terrorist you control may add 3 to their move if they can attack the chosen Target Assignment during their turn.

Or

Terrorist Tactics - If a Terrorist figure you control is engaged with an opponent's figure and is attacked by a non-adjacent opponent's figure, the non-adjacent attacking figure rolls 1 less attack die for that attack.


I don't know, just some ideas. :shrug:

[IAmBatman]

Hmmm ... what if there were a riff on Greenscale Warriors where she chooses one unique squad at the start of the game and "inspires" them to roll one more attack die the rest of the game, or something like that. Or maybe one more for each wound on her card - something like the MacDirk Agents in reverse?

[Hahma]

Hmmm ... what if there were a riff on Greenscale Warriors where she chooses one unique squad at the start of the game and "inspires" them to roll one more attack die the rest of the game, or something like that. Or maybe one more for each wound on her card - something like the MacDirk Agents in reverse?


Yeah, something like that could work. Some kind of inspired leadership deal. I'll try to work something up. The wife just got home from work, so I'm going to hang out with her for a while. :D

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I think she would great for a Drop/Swarm type ability. Kinda like Drop on the AE, where they can be placed on any empty hex, but also where she can call as many as you draft, sorta like rats. I think Reinforced Ambush would be a cool name and make it a One Time Only power.

[Hahma]

I see where you're coming from Spidey, as in the recent Secret Warriors comics it seems like the Hydra Agents drop from the sky almost like they are coming from a portal or something. The only concern that I'd have for it would be that it might be very wordy and eat up the bulk of the power text. I guess we can maybe look into it and see though.


One other thing that I just thought of this morning was a boost like Concan gives adjacent Sentinels or Knights of a +1 to attack. Viper could maybe give a +1 to attack for adjacent Agents and Terrorists. It may sound kind of boring, but with her Sacrifices Must Be Made power, it would be an interesting choice of do you want to put figures adjacent to her as she's as likely to let them take the bullet for her as the enemy is to kill them. It might be a risk reward thing. Who knows, we'll come up with something.


Edit: Actually, based on this from Wiki "A brilliant strategist and tactician with extensive combat tactical experience, Viper is highly skilled in the management of criminal organizations and very well connected in the international criminal underworld." She can give a +1 boost to attack to any adjacent figure, not just Agents and Terrorists. She's been around for a very long time and had quite the criminal and terrorist career. Here's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viper_%28Madame_Hydra%29) the link to Wiki for people to get a little more familiar with her.

[IAmBatman]

Interesting stuff ... and I think the "drop reinforcements" type power is best saved for a Nick Fury "Air Support" power anyway, personally.

[Griffin]

Interesting stuff ... and I think the "drop reinforcements" type power is best saved for a Nick Fury "Air Support" power anyway, personally.Agreed, and that power is extremely dangerous in power level and should not be considered lightly.

[Hahma]

Interesting stuff ... and I think the "drop reinforcements" type power is best saved for a Nick Fury "Air Support" power anyway, personally.Agreed, and that power is extremely dangerous in power level and should not be considered lightly.

I agree, I would much rather see that type of power for Nick Fury, if anyone.



Also tried a Greenscale Warrior thing. I don't know, may be okay may not.

Loyal to Viper - At the start of the game, choose a unique squad you control. Any time the choosen unique squad is within 2 clear sight spaces of Viper, they roll 1 additional attack and defense die.


I could also try the Highland Fury type thing and maybe call it Fanatical Fury.




Just for people to see what I have for Hydra Agents and how they would tie in with Viper, here's what I have.

HYDRA Agents (3 figure unit)
Human
Common Squad
Terrorists
Fanatical
Medium 5

Life 1
Move 5
Range 6
Attack 3
Defense 3

Ruthless Mastermind Bonding
After revealing an Order Marker on this card and immediately after taking a turn with the Hydra Agents, you may take a turn with any Ruthless Mastermind you control.

Hail HYDRA
After the first HYDRA agent you control is destroyed during a turn, add 1 to the defense of all remaining HYDRA agents you control for the remainder of that turn.


The bonding is for allowing the fodder Hydra Agents to go first and then for either Viper, Red Skull or Baron Strucker to follow. More the Hydra way with the lowly agents leading the way instead of the more heroic way of the leader/hero leading the way.

Hail Hydra is based on if you destroy us we come back stronger type of thing. Instead of doing the Marro Divider thing with them coming back to life, I figured that if they got "stronger" defensively, that would be cool in the sense of them coming back stronger after one is killed. I had originally had it so that after the first Hydra Agent is destoyed in a round, you can add 1 to the defense of all Hydra Agents for the remainder of that round, but I think that would make them too strong for the price. So I figured that if the first one that got attacked in a turn died, then the others would get the +1 for the rest of that round if they were being attacked by another squad or a multi attack hero. So this is another way that Viper's Sacrifices Must Be Made could help her team for if she destroys an adjacent Hydra Agent when she is attacked instead of taking the wounds herself, then all other Hydra Agents would get a better defense for the remainder of that turn, so it would be a worthy sacrifice to save her and also to make the rest of them stronger.

[Griffin]

I am definitely liking that power direction Hahma, however, couldn't we just call it "Cut off one limb and we shall grow another one", or whatever the quote is?

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Personally I like Hail Hydra.

[Hahma]

I am definitely liking that power direction Hahma, however, couldn't we just call it "Cut off one limb and we shall grow another one", or whatever the quote is?

Personally I like Hail Hydra.

Well here's their little saying:

"Hail HYDRA! Immortal HYDRA! We shall never be destroyed! Cut off one limb and two more shall take its place! We serve the Supreme Hydra, as the world shall soon serve us!"

Even just the text in bold might be kind of long for a power title. :shrug:

[Hahma]

Back to Viper. After reading the Wiki entry again, there were several mentions of her using operatives or having chief operatives working for her. Just a thought, but perhaps instead of the squad deal to replace Command Tactics, maybe we can look into a Hero based boost/synergy/connection or whatever that could be called Chief Operative. Maybe you can choose one human hero at the beginning of the game to be the Chief Operative and that operative can move 2 spaces any time Viper moves and can add 1 to attack and defense when adjacent to her or something like that. Just a thought, but of course the squad thing is still an option.


Edit: Here's the Highland Fury style attempt.

Subversive Fury - At the start of the game, choose a Unique Squad. While Viper is in play, the chosen Unique Squad may roll one additional attack die for each wound on Viper's card.

I guess one interesting aspect of this power would be that there might be a time where she might choose to take the wound from the attack instead of dishing it out with SMBM, in order to boost the chosen Unique Squad's attack. I don't know, I'll keep trying. I have an interesting idea for a power but I think it would be better suited for Baron Strucker since he's Supreme Hydra.

This one I plan on trying for Baron von Strucker.

HYDRA Intel and Will
Friendly figures within 6 clear sight spaces of Baron von Strucker can only have an Order Marker revealed or removed from their card as a result of a Special Attack from an opponent's figure.

[Griffin]

Edit: Here's the Highland Fury style attempt.

Subversive Fury - At the start of the game, choose a Unique Squad. While Viper is in play, the chosen Unique Squad may roll one additional attack die for each wound on Viper's card. I really really like this, but now after your informed post on the Hydra Quote, I want this power with the Hail Hydra title. :up:


This one I plan on trying for Baron von Strucker.

HYDRA Intel and Will
Friendly figures within 6 clear sight spaces of Baron von Strucker can only have an Order Marker revealed or removed from their card as a result of a Special Attack from an opponent's figure.OK, decent theme, but the wording needs some clean up for the future as you would currently never be able to reveal your own Order Marker on your own card if the figure is within 6 clear sight spaces of BVS.

[Hahma]

Edit: Here's the Highland Fury style attempt.

Subversive Fury - At the start of the game, choose a Unique Squad. While Viper is in play, the chosen Unique Squad may roll one additional attack die for each wound on Viper's card. I really really like this, but now after your informed post on the Hydra Quote, I want this power with the Hail Hydra title. :up:


This one I plan on trying for Baron von Strucker.

HYDRA Intel and Will
Friendly figures within 6 clear sight spaces of Baron von Strucker can only have an Order Marker revealed or removed from their card as a result of a Special Attack from an opponent's figure.OK, decent theme, but the wording needs some clean up for the future as you would currently never be able to reveal your own Order Marker on your own card if the figure is within 6 clear sight spaces of BVS.


As usual Griff, I really appreciate your input/help :thumbsup:

Regarding Subversive Fury, I can change that to Hail Hydra. Will just need to find another name for the Hydra Agents' power. No biggie.


Regarding Hydra Intel and Will, nice catch Griff, that's why you get paid the big bucks :D
This change below might be a little better, at least for now. The theme behind it is to keep OMs from being messed with by special powers from the likes of Joker, Riddler and Beast or any future ones that can do that in a special power. Basically it's a way of trying to translate the intelligence network Hydra has at its disposal and having many spies and people paid off that can offer them info to have the upper hand. It also shows (at least vs. Beast's Negotiation power) that they are fanatical and won't negotiate. It's a thought anyway. :)

HYDRA Intel and Will
Any figure you control within 6 clear sight spaces of Baron von Strucker can only have an Order Marker revealed or removed from their card by the player controlling them or as a result of a Special Attack from an opponent's figure.

[Griffin]

I tell you what I will do for ya H-man, I am gonna go ahead and update my BvS Brainstorming post with your current wording for HYDRA Intel and Will. That way it is archived until you need it.

I am such a nice guy. ;)

[Hahma]

You are a sweetheart Mr. G :D

[Griffin]

After looking over the card again, there is one thing IMO that is missing, her poison affects. Either her kiss, bite, nails, darts, bullets, whatever.... I would really like to see a poison effect similar to the Drow or Sujoah. I would rather see the Poison aspect than the

TELEPORTATION RING -Instead of moving Viper normally, you may choose any empty space that is up to 2 levels above or below her base and within 8 spaces of Viper. Place Viper on the chosen space. When Viper starts to teleport, if she is engaged she will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

You know what, after looking at this power, there are not many times where she would ever use her normal movement except to gain height elevations, and that brings up another issue; why does the Teleportation Ring have a limit on how high you can go? That seems like way too much theme sacrifice for the sake of adding an interesting mechanic that hopefully gives her normal move some use from time to time..... I would rather have this power gone from this card and give her a poison effect, special power, or special attack. I feel that her poison is soooooo much more iconic than her T Ring.

Oh, and we can always do a T Ring equipment glyph.

[Hahma]

I had been debating between Teleportation Ring and Poison when I posted her stats/powers, as I had poison attack in mind a while ago when I first started working on her. So maybe that wouldn't be such a bad change. All I know is that it has to be badass and not just a special attack of 3 or something and requiring a wound to check for poison, that would be useless to me. Also through playtesting, she's going to have to live longer than a 4 life 4 defense unit typically would and hopefully her other powers will help with that because Teleportation Ring was going to help with her unique way of avoiding death in certain occasions where others would die.




I guess I can see having a Teleportation Ring Glyph.

[Hahma]

How about this for her poison attack. I had looked at different things and thought about a Chilling Touch type thing, but didn't much like it as it didn't convey the potential lasting effects of her poison. So I came up with something like this that is loosely based on Estivara's Venom Ray Special Attack.

Venomous Strike Special Attack
Rng 2. Attack 3
If Viper rolls 3 skulls when attacking with Venomous Strike Special Attack, the defending figure receives 1 automatic wound and must roll the 20-sided die for Venom Damage. On a roll of 1-8, the defending figure receives no additional wounds from Venom Damage. On a roll of 9 or higher, add 1 additional wound marker to the defending figure’s Army Card and roll again for Venom Damage.


I know I didn't want a special attack of only 3, but the way this is worded, if she rolls 3 skulls, then it doesn't have a chance to be blocked like a normal special attack would. This doesn't rely on her having to inflict a wound as I figure the throwing darts or poison filled teeth or lipstick might be tougher to land, but when it does (with a 3 skull attack) the poison can really do some damage. Anyway, it's something of a start.

[Griffin]

How about this for her poison attack. I had looked at different things and thought about a Chilling Touch type thing, but didn't much like it as it didn't convey the potential lasting effects of her poison. So I came up with something like this that is loosely based on Estivara's Venom Ray Special Attack.

Venomous Strike Special Attack
Rng 2. Attack 3
If Viper rolls 3 skulls when attacking with Venomous Strike Special Attack, the defending figure receives 1 automatic wound and must roll the 20-sided die for Venom Damage. On a roll of 1-8, the defending figure receives no additional wounds from Venom Damage. On a roll of 9 or higher, add 1 additional wound marker to the defending figure’s Army Card and roll again for Venom Damage.


I know I didn't want a special attack of only 3, but the way this is worded, if she rolls 3 skulls, then it doesn't have a chance to be blocked like a normal special attack would. This doesn't rely on her having to inflict a wound as I figure the throwing darts or poison filled teeth or lipstick might be tougher to land, but when it does (with a 3 skull attack) the poison can really do some damage. Anyway, it's something of a start.
Well there is nothing there that would prevent anyone from rolling defense dice, so even if she did roll 3 skulls, the figure would certainly take the auto wound and the D20 chance of another wound, but they could still roll defense dice against the actual attack.
After talking with you on the phone, and after reading your post here, I think I have a better understanding now of what you are looking for.
I took out the repetitive D20 roll and made this similar to the Retchets of Bogdan with the twist that she can keep using it multiple times to help give her the oomph in power that you said you wanted her to have.

How about this:
Venomous Strikes Special Attack
Range 2. Attack 3
When attacking an opponent's small or medium figure with Venomous Strikes Special Attack, if Viper rolls a skull on every die, the defending figure cannot roll any defense dice. If Viper destroys a figure with her Venomous Strikes Special Attack, she may attack again with her Venomous Strikes Special Attack.

I think this Viper is looking more and more like she is worth 190 or 200 points.

[Hahma]

Well there is nothing there that would prevent anyone from rolling defense dice, so even if she did roll 3 skulls, the figure would certainly take the auto wound and the D20 chance of another wound, but they could still roll defense dice against the actual attack.
After talking with you on the phone, and after reading your post here, I think I have a better understanding now of what you are looking for.
I took out the repetitive D20 roll and made this similar to the Retchets of Bogdan with the twist that she can keep using it multiple times to help give her the oomph in power that you said you wanted her to have.

How about this:
Venomous Strikes Special Attack
Range 2. Attack 3
When attacking an opponent's small or medium figure with Venomous Strikes Special Attack, if Viper rolls a skull on every die, the defending figure cannot roll any defense dice. If Viper destroys a figure with her Venomous Strikes Special Attack, she may attack again with her Venomous Strikes Special Attack.

I think this Viper is looking more and more like she is worth 190 or 200 points.

Hmm...well that's a different angle for sure :D I had thought about the Recchets, but didn't want the auto destroy like them, that's why I didn't include it with the Estivara type power, as she had auto kill on 20.

This would really be a sick power and would really make opponents want to steer clear of her. It would also allow her to get multiple attacks that wouldn't rely on 3 skulls and that would help her vs. squads. I thought a double normal attack would be boring. I really like it and think it would actually be thematic for her to be up there in Red Skull point range. I'd also like to see BvS in that point range of 190-200 as well. Anyone reading Viper's or BvS background info could see that they are some pretty bad people and do things on a grand would-wide scale.

I will update the first post with that power.


vBulletin Message You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Griffin again.

[Griffin]

Cool. I am glad you like it. :D

[Hahma]

Cool. I am glad you like it. :D

I do, and thanks. :thumbsup:

[Griffin]

Cool. I am glad you like it. :D

I do, and thanks. :thumbsup:
I think our little phone call really helped. I wish we could all talk a bit more consistently online or something...

[Hahma]

Cool. I am glad you like it. :D

I do, and thanks. :thumbsup:
I think our little phone call really helped. I wish we could all talk a bit more consistently online or something...

Yeah, it would be nice to get on Skype once in awhile again for chats. I just can't stay up all night like you night owls. :D Ideal times for me are usually 10pm central time most of the time but I can do earlier on occasion though.


Anyway, if there are no objections, I'd like to do an initial playtest for Viper before I leave for vacation. I'll be gone from Thursday, June 24 through Monday night, June 28th.

[Griffin]

HAIL HYDRA - At the start of the game, choose a Unique Squad. While Viper is in play, the chosen Unique Squad may roll one additional attack die for each wound on Viper's card.I am not sure if we should be worried about this one or not. I think that we should definitely take a good hard look at each Unique Squad, but also consider the possibility that the official line may create a Unique Squad with deadly shot... that could be very very very dangerous and exploitable.

VENOMOUS STRIKES SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 2. Attack 3
When attacking an opponent's small or medium figure with Venomous Strikes Special Attack, if Viper rolls a skull on every die, the defending figure cannot roll any defense dice. If Viper destroys a figure with her Venomous Strikes Special Attack, she may attack again with her Venomous Strikes Special Attack.What if the attack value was 2. Then it would be easier to get all skulls and inflict 2 wounds much easier. :reapershrug:

[Hahma]

First with the easier one, I'd be fine with lowering the Venomous Strikes attack to 2 attack dice. It would make it easier to get 2 skulls but it would also be more of a hit or miss thing where she could also whiff easier or only roll 1 skull easier and make it less likely to inflict any wounds. After all, the attack is supposed to represent her either using poison tipped darts (thus the range of 2) or kiss them with poison lipstick or bite them with poison filled hollowed out teeth. So thematically, if she doesn't roll 2 skulls, she shouldn't have that much chance of inflicting a wound with only 1 skull but when she hits with 2 skulls, it would be a nice couple wounds.


As for Hail Hydra, you're right, it can be dangerous and exloitable. I was kind of looking at that with the Ninjas and Kozukes getting up to 7 or 8 attack dice with Viper having 3 wounds on her card and the Ninjas being hard to kill with disappearing and Kozukes being able to charge 8 spaces with an 8 attack each would be nasty.

So I kind of thought of something else since you brought it up. How about something like this:



LEAD BY EXAMPLE
If Viper destroys 1 or more of your opponent's Unique Heroes in a round you may add 1 to the attack of any common squad figure you control for the remainder of that round.




The only scary thing I can see so far with this would be Minions getting an extra attack die for Deadly Strike or the Omnicrons getting and extra attack die, or one added for Wait and Fire. But, it's only for the round that she would destroy the opponent's unique hero and if she does it with OM 3 for her team, then it wouldn't have any affect as that round would be over. Since the Hydra Agents' Ruthless Mastermind Bonding has them taking a turn before her, then they wouldn't get the benefit of LBE on OM 3 either. So essensially it would really have limited opportunities for use on OMs 1 and 2, useful for only that round and perhaps inspire the player controlling her to be more aggressive with her at times early in rounds to get the most bang for their buck. This extra aggressiveness can also play a role in how she positions herself and decisions she makes regarding the best use of both that power and Sacrifices Must Be Made.

Let me know what you think. I may have overlooked something of course and you have an eye for the issues than can arise.

[Griffin]

I like that direction. Front page please. :D

[Hahma]

Front page updated. :)

[Griffin]

Oh man I am really digging this card. I look forward to reading the results. :thumbsup:

[whitestuff]

She is looking good lads. :up:

[Hahma]

Thanks Whitestuff. :)

I've got some HH tests done so far and she's going to be interesting to price as by herself, she's not all that spectacular with 4L R7 A4 D4 and her Venomous Strikes. The thing with VS is that she may not want to get that close to some opponents because like Kaemon Awa that has same stats but double attack with range 4, will and have kicked her ass. And Sonlen beat her too because up close he gets the Dragon Swoop and it was working. But even with her range of 7, she can't stay back and snipe all the time vs. opponent's with range as they can move and attack her.

I'll post detailed results later as I have to head out to work. But I did a lot of HH tests for her to get some kind of baseline considering her other powers rely on having teammates.

[Hahma]

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT Viper @ 180 points Pass at 180

C3G CHECK LIST FEEDBACK FORM
- Theme/ Does it pass. Pass
- Mirror/ Does it pass,. Pass
- Bonding/ Does it pass. Pass
- Synergy/ Does it pass?. Pass
- Power/ Does it pass?,. Pass
- Fun Test/ Does it pass? Pass
- Fun Competitive Test/ Does it pass? Pass
- Drafting Test/ Does it pass? Pass
- Usage Test/ Does it pass? Pass
- Strategy Test/Does it pass? Pass
C3G PLAY TEST FEEDBACK FORM
(Be sure to list what official units you used and what BoV map you used per section below.)
-
Heavy Hitter/ Does it pass? Pass, but she's feeling closer to 130-140 for HH

Played on Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh map.

Vs. Huntress (170)
Huntress wins with 2 wounds on T1R2
Huntress wins with 2 wounds on T3R2
Huntress wins with 0 wounds on T3R1
Vipers wins with 0 wounds on T3R1
Huntress wins with 3 wounds on T2R2

While Viper has a longer range of 7 vs. Huntress' range of 5, for Viper to attack even at 7 spaces away, Huntress's move of 6 lets her get into either lower crossbow double attack of 3 range or 2 spaces away for higher crossbow double attack of 5. Viper tried her Venomous Strikes a couple times but never got 2 skulls and the 1 skull attack was easily blocked.

Vs. Green Arrow (150)
Green Arrow wins with 0 wounds on T2R1
Viper wins with 2 wounds on T2R2
Green Arrow wins with 0 wounds on T4R1
Viper wins with 1 wound on T6R1
Green Arrow wins with 1 wounds on T5R1

They have same lives, defense and normal basic attack. Viper has 1 more move and GA has 2 more range. She can't add anything special to her ranged attack other than height and couldn't get close enough to try Venomous Strikes. GA was able to reduce her nominal base defense of 4 down to 2 a couple times with SS rolls and even had 2 SS rolls of 20 in the last game where Viper couldn't even roll defense. He was on his game.

Vs. Kaemon Awa (120)
Kaemon Awa wins with 2 wounds on T5R1
Kaemon Awa wins win 1 wound on T4R2
Viper wins with 0 wounds on T2R1 (4sk/0sh attack right off the bat)
Kaemon Awa wins with 1 wound on T4R1
Kaemon Awa wins with 3 wounds on T6R1

Again they have same life, defense and normal attack and even range. The thing that really set them apart of course was KA's Quick Release double attack. With only a defense of 4 and nothing else at her disposal 1 vs 1 to save her, she couldn't keep up or match him. Her one win was with a first attack of 4 skulls vs. 0 shields from KA. She had tried Venomous Strikes a couple times when he closed in to engage, but she missed with them.

Vs. Cyprien (150)
Viper wins with 2 wounds on T4R2
Cyprien wins with 5 wounds on T5R2

Venomous Strikes finally worked and it worked twice in the first match to put 4 wounds on Cyprien. It worked once in the second game to put 2 wounds on him. His Chilling Touch only worked once for both matches but only put 1 wound on Viper. She had more opportunity to use VS against a melee unit like Cyprien and got lucky with it. She was also lucky that his Chilling Touch was cold and didn't hurt her except for 1 wound and her defense of 4 was decent against his normal attack of 3.

Vs. Sonlon (160)
Sonlen wins with 0 wounds on T3R1
Sonlen wins with 0 wounds on T5R1

Sonlen had some decent luck as in game one he put 1 wound on Viper with Dragon Swoop and then had a 3/0 attack to kill her. He didn't get DS to work in the second game but he got Dragon Heal to take 2 wounds off his card to end up with 0 at the end and he rolled good attacks with his normal attacks and Viper didn't roll so well defensively.

Vs. Joker (190)
Viper wins with 0 wounds on T3R2
Viper wins with 3 wounds on T4R2

Just for the heck of it, since her ego has been getting battered around, I thought I'd try her against Joker. She rolled good with her attacks and was able to use her mobility to get height. His lower defense made it easier for her to wound him and he didn't have much luck until the second game where he put 3 wounds on her with Wanna Hear Another and was close to taking her out on that turn.

Vs. Cyclops (190)
Cyclops wins with 3 wounds on T6R1
Viper wins with 2 wounds on T1R1

They both have same life, norm attack and defense. He has better range and his special attack with range of 7 is an attack of 5 so that's pretty good. He took her out in the first game with a 4/0 attack. In the second game, she closed in and put final 2 wounds on him with Venomous Strikes.


Vs. Pyro (120)
Viper wins with 0 wounds on T5R1
Viper wins with 0 wounds on T3R1

Not really a fair match up, but I wanted to make sure she could do well against a guy like this. His ranged attack can't match hers range-wise or get height boost and is really designed to affect multiple opponents and his other special power is useless if he can't get engaged. So really, he wasn't even a 100 point figure for this test. She took him out a bit at a time in the first game and in the second game she took him out with a 4/0 attack.

I did a lot of tests to try to get a baseline as to where she would be when not having other powers available because if she doesn't have commons to boost with LBE or teammates to take wounds for her from SMBM, then she can be decent, but not really good or great.
Squad/ Does it pass? To be done Pass
Played on Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh map

Viper (180) vs. 10th Reg x 2 (150)

4 10th Reg survive to win on T1R3. She got caught in a Wait and Fire attack after the 10th had T6 for R2 and got into position and had wounded her with regular attacks, but after winning initiative for R3, their W+F tore her up. She tried to isolate them as much as possible but they had moved out as a group from the SZ and not as 4 man units, so eventually, she was going to have to face multiple attacks even if they were attacks of 2, eventually they will get some through. She had the opportunity to engage a few and try Venomous Strikes to get lucky and kill 2 or 3, but against them, not only do their defense go up when engaged, but if she rolled bad, she'd be in a real pickle with Wait and Fire.

Again, she's kind of feeling like a 130-140 points without support units to allow her to use her other powers. She only has a single attack, and while it's decent, she doesn't have the staying power when alone to be worth too much. Her Venomous Strikes can be nice vs. certain squads and some heroes, but again, if she risks being that close and doesn't have support, she can be toast if she misses with VS. Because she has to be so close to use it, it's a tough decision sometimes to take that risk instead of trying to stay away and use height and normal ranged attack.


Army Test 1/ Does it pass?. Pass
Played on Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh map

Viper (180) 10th Reg x 2 (150) Venom (150) and Kaemon Awa (120) for 600 points.

Vs.

Daredevil (180) Cyprien (150) Green Arrow (150) and Pyro (120)

R1 - DD moves out toward height. Venom moves to opposite corner as DD. Pyro moves out cautiously behind ruin, to get a little bit closer to pounce later with Living Flame S.A. Kaemon Awa moves near Venom.Green Arrow moves to cover KA and Venom. Kaemon Awa moves to height.

R2 - Green Arrow moves to be 9 spaces from KA w/ht and misses with a SS 7 1/3 attack. Venom swings to height near KA. DD moves to height in opposite corner to handle the 10th threat. Kaemon Awa moves to be 7 spaces from GA and retain height and puts 2 wounds on GA with a 3/1 attack. Green Arrow moves back 2 spaces and attack KA w/ht with a SS 8 attack of 2/1 for 1 wound. 10th moves and attack DD, who evades with Radar Sense after the 1st attack so he's out of LOS and/or range of other attacks from 10th.

R3 - Green Arrow attacks KA w/ht with a SS3 attack of 1/2 and misses (rolling really crappy for SS). Viper moves forward to height and to be adjacent to 1 10th for SMBM. DD moves back up to height and kills the nearest 10th with thrown billy club. 10th moves to have 2 adjacent to Viper and others fan out to try to cover DD's evade route. He misses Radar Sense for the first attack but defends w/o wounds and then evades other attacks with RS. DD moves back to height and kills another 10th with his thrown billy club. Kaemon Awa moves and attacks with height vs. Green Arrow and kills him with a 2/0 attack.

R4 - Pyro moves out of hiding and can just get into range to use Living Flame. He kills the first 10th adjacent to Viper, Viper defends vs 2 skull attack, but other 10th on the other side of her isn't lucky and dies. Viper moves and attacks with height vs. Pyro but whiffs the attack. DD moves and puts 1 wound on Viper with a thrown billy club. Viper attacks with height vs. Pyro and scores big with a 4/1 attack to put 3 wounds on him. Pryo moves and attacks 1 10th with LF for a 1/1 miss. 10th move and attack DD with height but he evades with RS twice and is out of LOS of further attacks, but 1 10th can attack Pyro but misses with a 1/1 attack.

R5 - Pryo moves into LF range and attacks Viper but misses with a 1/2 attack, then whiffs vs. 10th adjacent to Viper, but then kills a different 10th with a 2/0 attack. Viper kills Pyro to get Lead By Example to kick in for 10th to get +1 to attack for remainder of round. DD saw no more OM on Viper's card and didn't want to waste billy club attack on her that she'd use SMBM anyway, so he attacked a nearby 10th since they had 1 extra to their attack, but DD whiffed his attack. Last 3 10th move, with 1 getting adjacent to DD(w/ht), 1 getting adjacent to Cyprien (w/ht) and one staying next to Viper and in range of DD. The 2 10th that moved into adjacency had attacks of 4 (2+1bayonet+1LBE) but they only rolled 1 skull that was blocked by both Cyp and DD (who missed RS) and the 3rid 10th had attack of 3 (no bayonet) but also rolled 1 skull vs. DD who blocked it after missing RS. (what a waste of LBE). Cyprien uses stealth fly to leave 10th to get adjacent to DD and kill the 10th adj to DD. KA moves and puts 1 wound on Cyp.

R6 - Cyp moves to height adjacent to Kaemon Awa and puts 3 wounds on him with Chilling Touch and then kills him with normal attack to also remove his 1 wound marker. KA dead so no turn. DD moves adjacent to Viper and 10th and kills 10th first and then kills Viper with a 4/1 attack. Viper dead no turn. Cyprien move adjacent to Venom for an attack but Venom SS away toward DD. Last 10th moves and puts 1 wound on DD.

R7 - Cyprien moves adjacent to Venom and puts 1 wound on him with CT and one more with normal attack. Venom attacks Cyprien for 2 wounds. Cyprien misses with CT but gets lucky again with normal attack for 1 more wound on Venom (3). Venom puts 2 more wounds on Cyprien (4) DD moves and throw billy club at Venom, but SS20 lets Venom avoid attack. Venom attacks and misses Cyprien.

R8 - Cyprien misses with CT and whiffs attack vs. Venom. Venom kills Cyprien with a 4/2 attack. DD moves to height and throws billy club but only rolls 1 skull that is blocked by 2 shields. Venom moves adjacent to DD and attacks with a 4 skull attack and DD misses RS and whiffs defense roll to die.

Venom with 3 wounds and 1 10th live to take victory on T4R7

After losing Green Arrow early, it didn't look good for DD's team, but they came back to make it a close game. Viper killed Pyro, but he had taken advantage of her adjacency to the 10th for SMBM to make good use of LF. By killing Pryo, Viper boosted final 3 10th to +1 attacks for last turn of round but they didn't take advantage of it. LBE isn't always going to be easy to accomplish unless Viper has easy UH's to kill or finish off. Her SMBM can be countered by Pyro's LF and other special attacks such as Zelrig's Majestic Fire and Braxas' Acid Breath to name a few. So while it can help her in some situations stay alive, it also give opponent's cluster attack options like any power that requires adjacency do. So while it's a nice power and thematic, it can also be countered, so I wouldn't put too much stock in it's value to her as it can also be detrimental.


Army Test 2/ Does it pass?. Pass
Played on Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh map

Viper (180) Deadpool (285) and Civilians x 3 (135) for 600 points.

Vs.

GL Hal (350) and Flash (250) for 600 points.

R1- GL moves to ht. Civilians move toward GL and center of map. Flash moves 12 spaces and kills a Civilian causing 2 to Panic and then Flash moves 4 spaces to be adjacent to GL and ht. Civs move and 2 attack Flash with SIN but miss. GL moves adjacent to Viper but misses with a 2/2 attack and FC2. Viper attacks GL with Venomous Strikes and rolls 2 skulls. He takes the wounds and saves the Battery.

R2 - Flash moves through a bunch of Civs to attack Deadpool with Fist Fusillade, but rolls crappy with 1/0, 1/2, 0/ - and 1/4 attacks to only put 1 wound on DP. Viper attacks GL again with VS but whiffs the attack. Flash attacks DP and again rolls crappy with 2/2, 1/3, 1/3 and 1/2 attacks. DP attacks Flash but he Evades, but in range for second attack but Flash Evades again. DP removes 1 wound. GL attacks Viper with a 3/1 attack and she uses SMBM to let a Civ take the wounds. GL misses with FC. DP leaves engagement with Flash for 1 wound and attacks GL twice but rolls bad and misses and then removes 1 wound maker (0).

R3 - GL attacks DP with a 3/2 attack for 1 wound. and misses FC again. Civilians move to get 4 adjacent to Viper and 3 adjacent to GL and 2 adj to Flash. 1 Civ puts 2 wounds on Flash with a 2/0 attack where Flash rolled all 4 skulls. He Evaded other attack and other attacks on GL missed. Flash attacks DP and puts 3 wounds on him with FF. DP attacks GL but misses twice and removes 1 wound (2). Flash attacks DP and rolls crappy again 1/1, 0/-, 1/0 and 1/2 attacks for 1 wound on DP. DP misses GL and then tries Flash but he Evades. DP removes 1 wound and 1 wound (1).

R4 - Flash moves and attacks Civs to kill 2. Viper attacks GL with VS and misses. Flash attacks Viper with FF but rolls crappy again but puts 1 wound on her. DP Attacks GL with a 3 skull attack to force him to burn a Shield (3) then rolls another 3 skull attack to force him to burn another one (2) (GL had taken 2 wounds earlier and didn't want to whiff or only roll 1 shield to die). GL attacks DP for 1 wound. DP is having good luck and rolls another 3 skulls vs. GL to remove 1 more Shield (1) and GL blocks next attack. DP removes 2 wounds (1)

R5 - Flash moves and attacks DP for 2 wounds. Viper misses GL with VS. Flash misses DP with FF. DP continues to roll good against GL with a 4 skull attack to remove last Shield but misses next attack and removes 1 wound. Flash attacks DP to get up to 4 wounds.DP kills GL and heals 2 wounds (2).

R6 - Viper misses Flash with VS. Flash gets DP back up to 4 wounds. DP misses both attacks on Flash who Evades and DP removes 1 wound (3) Flash finally can kill DP with FF attack. DP dead no turn. Flash rolls crappy again for FF and only puts 1 wound on Viper (2)

R7 - Viper attacks Flash with VS and hits 2 skulls so he can't roll defense to Evade and dies.

Viper with 2 wounds and 4 Civilians survive to win on T1R7.

Another close game that could have gone either way. Flash rolled terrible attacks with FF most of the time to really waste good opportunities. On the flip side, Deadpool rolled great with some 3 skull attacks and a 4 skull attack vs. GL to force him to burn Shield Markers after Viper had put 2 wounds on him earlier with VS. Flash also had bad luck when he took 2 wounds from a Civilian that attacked with SIN and Flash rolled all skulls to not only miss Evade but miss blocking the attack. The Civilians helped keep Viper alive once, but she blocked weak attacks by GL and took 1 wound on two occasions to save Civilians for big wound attacks that never came. She only attacked with Venomous Strikes and did so many times and got 2 wounds on GL who chose not to burn a Shield Marker, (but she could have done that with a normal 2 skull attack he whiffed on or forced him to burn a SM with a 4 skull attack) and then she put final 2 wounds on Flash with VS.

Truthfully, GL and Flash could have stayed back some and tried to whittle down the Civilians more early on, but then DP and Viper still had ranged attacks to get to them. But then again, Flash would have been able to Evade out of range for second attack from DP and neither he or GL would have to face as many Venomous Strikes attack attempts. So while Viper's team won, there was a combination of things that happened that contributed to that and I think GL's team could have easily won as well. Flash rolled horrible, as did GL. for attacks. Deadpool rolled great and was able to heal often because of weak attacks by Flash and GL.

[Griffin]

Wow, good stuff H man. I think that it is like I told you on the phone, she is going to go up in value once she has some good common squad support. Right now, I think that she is worth about 140, but once you start using "Sacrifices" and "Leader", I think her cost is going to increase to the near Red Skull range of 190. Hey, do you want to increase the effectiveness of her Viper Strikes by making the attack 1 instead of 2?

[Hahma]

Wow, good stuff H man. I think that it is like I told you on the phone, she is going to go up in value once she has some good common squad support. Right now, I think that she is worth about 140, but once you start using "Sacrifices" and "Leader", I think her cost is going to increase to the near Red Skull range of 190. Hey, do you want to increase the effectiveness of her Viper Strikes by making the attack 1 instead of 2?


Not really, then it's kind of like HYL or Pyro's Engulf. I think that it would be better to give 2 wounds, even if it is a little harder to pull off, rather than having 50% chance for 1 wound. I had bad luck with it in early games, but later I hit it twice against Cyprien in one game and once in the second game with him. I hit it one other time later as well against someone else. I don't think it should be over-used, and it should have some kind of risk involved that can give a nice reward. I can really see her going for it on OM 1 or 2 vs. a Unique Hero with only 2 lives left, if she pulls it off and destroys the UH, her common squad teammates get +1 to their attack for the rest of the round. Also, if she has that UH already engaged with some teammates and tries VS and fails, she can be adjacent to her teammates and be protected by SMBM.

Ohhhhhhhh, and wait til you see one power for Baron von Strucker, it will make SMBM really interesting and tempting, depending on the situation. :twisted:

[Griffin]

Ohhhhhhhh, and wait til you see one power for Baron von Strucker, it will make SMBM really interesting and tempting, depending on the situation. :twisted:
Come on cracker. Give me a taste of the goods.

[Hahma]

Ohhhhhhhh, and wait til you see one power for Baron von Strucker, it will make SMBM really interesting and tempting, depending on the situation. :twisted:
Come on cracker. Give me a taste of the goods.

Now make sure you vote the way I would vote for any upcoming proposals once I've gone. :)


Baron von Strucker
Human
Unique Hero
Mastermind
Ruthless
Medium 5

Life 5
Move 5
Range 5
Attack 4
Defense 5

HYDRA INTEL AND WILL
Any figure you control within 6 clear sight spaces of Baron von Strucker can only have an Order Marker revealed or removed from their card by the player controlling them or as a result of a Special Attack from an opponent’s figure.

Satan Claw Special Attack
Range 1 Attack 5
After rolling defense dice against this Special Attack, if the defending figure is not destroyed and does not have the Electrically Charged special power, roll the 20-sided die for electricity damage. On a roll of 11 or higher, the defending figure receives 1 wound. Add 4 to your roll if the defending figure is an Android or has Electricity Weakness.

Death Spore Release
When Baron von Strucker takes enough wounds to be destroyed, roll the 20-sided die once for each figure remaining in the game. On a roll of 1-18, nothing happens. On a roll of 19, the figure receives 1 wound. On a roll of 20, destroy the figure. Subtract 1 from your roll for figures with Superstrength.




From the Marvel Database

Powers

Deathspore Virus: Strucker's bloodstream has been infected with the fatal deathspore virus which, rather than kill him grants him an array of superhuman abilities.
Suppressed Aging: Strucker has not aged since contracting the virus.
Invulnerability (limited): Strucker is invulnerable to minor injuries like cuts, gunshot wounds, and superpowered punches.
Regenerative healing factor: Heals at an incredible rate and is possibly also resistant to toxins and disease.
Death Spore Release: Strucker can temporarily release the virus from his body over short distances. Depending on the intensity, Strucker can cause his victims to weaken, feel pain, or even die. When Strucker dies, the Death Spore Virus will be automatically released and "take revenge on my killers, and everybody else." The Virus seems to be incapable of killing superhuman or artificially enhanced beings, but is still capable of hurting or weakening them. Abilities

Baron Strucker is a highly intelligent man in peak human physical condition. He is an exceptional hand-to-hand combatant, swordsman, and marksman. He is also a consummate military strategist and spy, and a master of disguise and excellent actor. He carries a sword and traditional firearms.

Strength level
Peak human strength. Can be enhanced by Satan Claw

Equipment

Satan Claw (http://marvel.wikia.com/index.php?title=Satan_Claw&action=edit&redlink=1): This metal gauntlet amplifies its strength and emits powerful electrical shocks. It has also been used to contain knives, plasma blasters, chain guns and teleportation technology.

Transportation
Various Hydra vehicles.

Weapons
Strucker is typically armed with a fencing sword and various firearms and explosives.



So based on the above info on him, he might even be able to have his life or defense bumped up for his healing and invulnerability powers derived from the Death Spore. I didn't want to put that in power as I felt that some kind of army affecting power is kind of important for a Mastermind, his Satan's Claw is iconic and I felt the Death Spore Release was a unique and different power that would be thematic and interesting, definitely different. I could have gone the him releasing the Death Spore on purpose but that would be kind of like Braxas and I figured he already had the Satan Claw attack and a decent ranged attack.

I figured that Viper could use the Sacrifices Must Be Made at some point during a game and give enough wounds to BVS to kill him and then everyone has to roll to see who's still living. That would be so like her I think and leave the opponent crapping their pants in trying to decide who to attack during the game.

[Griffin]

Death Spore Release

I really like that power especially. Great thematic fun.

[Hahma]

Death Spore Release

I really like that power especially. Great thematic fun.

Thanks :D The other stuff can/will be tweaked I'm sure. But I thought DSR is a really crazy fun thing that makes both players make some decisions around.

[Hahma]

The more I think about it, I may want to do something different for BVS than HYDRA Intel and Will. :shrug: It's okay and a nice counter to some OM removing powers, but it might not be used much and I would like a power that would get more use I suppose and be a little more leader like.

[Griffin]

I think that Satan Claw Special Attack and Death Spore Release is all he needs personally.

[Hahma]

I think that Satan Claw Special Attack and Death Spore Release is all he needs personally.

I can live with that, but do you think we can do that with him having a decent cost up near the Viper and Red Skull range? Since thematically, he is the top dog of Hydra. I mean he can be a tank like Ruthless Mastermind that doesn't have to hide in the back like Red Skull or hide behind others like Viper. I was kind of trying to get the Ruthless Masterminds to play differently so that if all three were in an army with Hydra Agents, there would be 3 totally different Ruthless Masterminds they can bond with and keep the opponent guessing and be flexible for different situations.

[Griffin]

I think that Satan Claw Special Attack and Death Spore Release is all he needs personally.

I can live with that, but do you think we can do that with him having a decent cost up near the Viper and Red Skull range? Since thematically, he is the top dog of Hydra. I mean he can be a tank like Ruthless Mastermind that doesn't have to hide in the back like Red Skull or hide behind others like Viper. I was kind of trying to get the Ruthless Masterminds to play differently so that if all three were in an army with Hydra Agents, there would be 3 totally different Ruthless Masterminds they can bond with and keep the opponent guessing and be flexible for different situations.
I like that plan a lot. I guess the only thing that I don't like, is that he is not looking like too much of a "Master Mind". They usually have or should have the ability to control the battlefield whether it be controlling their allies or enemies.

[Hahma]

I think that Satan Claw Special Attack and Death Spore Release is all he needs personally.

I can live with that, but do you think we can do that with him having a decent cost up near the Viper and Red Skull range? Since thematically, he is the top dog of Hydra. I mean he can be a tank like Ruthless Mastermind that doesn't have to hide in the back like Red Skull or hide behind others like Viper. I was kind of trying to get the Ruthless Masterminds to play differently so that if all three were in an army with Hydra Agents, there would be 3 totally different Ruthless Masterminds they can bond with and keep the opponent guessing and be flexible for different situations.
I like that plan a lot. I guess the only thing that I don't like, is that he is not looking like too much of a "Master Mind". They usually have or should have the ability to control the battlefield whether it be controlling their allies or enemies.

Well that's kind of why I had wanted the Hydra Intel and Will or something like that, so that he would have some kind of battlefield controlling power to show his Mastermind theme. I mean, he is the leader of Hydra, kind of the Nick Fury of the subversive/terrorist world. In fact, I believe S.H.I.E.L.D. was created specifically because of BVS and HYDRA.

Even if it were a simple power, it would be something to show that he is a Mastermind.

[Griffin]

I think that Satan Claw Special Attack and Death Spore Release is all he needs personally.

I can live with that, but do you think we can do that with him having a decent cost up near the Viper and Red Skull range? Since thematically, he is the top dog of Hydra. I mean he can be a tank like Ruthless Mastermind that doesn't have to hide in the back like Red Skull or hide behind others like Viper. I was kind of trying to get the Ruthless Masterminds to play differently so that if all three were in an army with Hydra Agents, there would be 3 totally different Ruthless Masterminds they can bond with and keep the opponent guessing and be flexible for different situations.
I like that plan a lot. I guess the only thing that I don't like, is that he is not looking like too much of a "Master Mind". They usually have or should have the ability to control the battlefield whether it be controlling their allies or enemies.

Well that's kind of why I had wanted the Hydra Intel and Will or something like that, so that he would have some kind of battlefield controlling power to show his Mastermind theme. I mean, he is the leader of Hydra, kind of the Nick Fury of the subversive/terrorist world. In fact, I believe S.H.I.E.L.D. was created specifically because of BVS and HYDRA.

Even if it were a simple power, it would be something to show that he is a Mastermind.Yeah, as soon as I posted that I realized that was the intent of HIaW. Hmmmm.... what about an Ambush power that could surround an enemy with several common squad figures you control? That is pretty Master Minded.

[Hahma]

Yeah, as soon as I posted that I realized that was the intent of HIaW. Hmmmm.... what about an Ambush power that could surround an enemy with several common squad figures you control? That is pretty Master Minded.


Maybe something along the order of this rough thought:


Counter Tactics/Ambush/One Step Ahead/Counter Maneuvers/Counter Measures/Contingency Plan

Any time an opponent's figure moves to within 4 spaces of any Unique Hero you control, you may immediately move up to 3 of the same common squad figures up to 4 spaces each.

[Griffin]

Yeah, as soon as I posted that I realized that was the intent of HIaW. Hmmmm.... what about an Ambush power that could surround an enemy with several common squad figures you control? That is pretty Master Minded.


Maybe something along the order of this rough thought:


Counter Tactics/Ambush/One Step Ahead/Counter Maneuvers/Counter Measures

Any time an opponent's figure moves to within 4 spaces of any Unique Hero you control, you may immediately move up to 3 of the same common squad figures up to 4 spaces each.

:up:

Counter Tactics
Anytime an opponent's figure ends its movement within 4 clear sight spaces of any Unique Hero you control, you may choose up to 2 unengaged friendly figures you control and place them adjacent to the opponent's figure.

[Hahma]

Yeah, as soon as I posted that I realized that was the intent of HIaW. Hmmmm.... what about an Ambush power that could surround an enemy with several common squad figures you control? That is pretty Master Minded.


Maybe something along the order of this rough thought:


Counter Tactics/Ambush/One Step Ahead/Counter Maneuvers/Counter Measures

Any time an opponent's figure moves to within 4 spaces of any Unique Hero you control, you may immediately move up to 3 of the same common squad figures up to 4 spaces each.

:up:

Counter Tactics
Anytime an opponent's figure ends its movement within 4 clear sight spaces of any Unique Hero you control, you may choose up to 2 unengaged friendly figures you control and place them adjacent to the opponent's figure.

That's pretty cool, though would you be able to place those 2 figures from anywhere on the map? Like teleporting? That might be kind of scary to place Hulk and Grundy adjacent to that figure :shock:

[Griffin]

Yeah, as soon as I posted that I realized that was the intent of HIaW. Hmmmm.... what about an Ambush power that could surround an enemy with several common squad figures you control? That is pretty Master Minded.


Maybe something along the order of this rough thought:


Counter Tactics/Ambush/One Step Ahead/Counter Maneuvers/Counter Measures

Any time an opponent's figure moves to within 4 spaces of any Unique Hero you control, you may immediately move up to 3 of the same common squad figures up to 4 spaces each.

:up:

Counter Tactics
Anytime an opponent's figure ends its movement within 4 clear sight spaces of any Unique Hero you control, you may choose up to 2 unengaged friendly figures you control and place them adjacent to the opponent's figure.

That's pretty cool, though would you be able to place those 2 figures from anywhere on the map? Like teleporting? That might be kind of scary to place Hulk and Grundy adjacent to that figure :shock:
True.... how about this:

Counter Tactics
Anytime an opponent's figure ends its movement within 4 clear sight spaces of any Unique Hero you control, you may choose up to 2 unengaged friendly common figures you control and place them adjacent to the opponent's figure.

[Hahma]

Yeah, as soon as I posted that I realized that was the intent of HIaW. Hmmmm.... what about an Ambush power that could surround an enemy with several common squad figures you control? That is pretty Master Minded.


Maybe something along the order of this rough thought:


Counter Tactics/Ambush/One Step Ahead/Counter Maneuvers/Counter Measures

Any time an opponent's figure moves to within 4 spaces of any Unique Hero you control, you may immediately move up to 3 of the same common squad figures up to 4 spaces each.

:up:

Counter Tactics
Anytime an opponent's figure ends its movement within 4 clear sight spaces of any Unique Hero you control, you may choose up to 2 unengaged friendly figures you control and place them adjacent to the opponent's figure.

That's pretty cool, though would you be able to place those 2 figures from anywhere on the map? Like teleporting? That might be kind of scary to place Hulk and Grundy adjacent to that figure :shock:
True.... how about this:

Counter Tactics
Anytime an opponent's figure ends its movement within 4 clear sight spaces of any Unique Hero you control, you may choose up to 2 unengaged friendly common figures you control and place them adjacent to the opponent's figure.


That's better. Fun and useful, but less deadly over the top. :thumbsup:

[Griffin]

Soooo.... back to Viper now? :oops: :hijacked:

[Hahma]

Soooo.... back to Viper now? :oops: :hijacked:


Nothing wrong with a little derail if it is somewhat relevant. :D It's kind of nice to get the overall picture to see how things will work together.

Now picture how Counter Tactics could be extra useful after Viper activates Lead By Example. See ... it was a relevant sidetrack. :D

I'll update my design notes with Counter Tactics

Too bad Bats is missing all the fun, though I imagine he's having fun too ;)

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Yeah, as soon as I posted that I realized that was the intent of HIaW. Hmmmm.... what about an Ambush power that could surround an enemy with several common squad figures you control? That is pretty Master Minded.


Maybe something along the order of this rough thought:


Counter Tactics/Ambush/One Step Ahead/Counter Maneuvers/Counter Measures

Any time an opponent's figure moves to within 4 spaces of any Unique Hero you control, you may immediately move up to 3 of the same common squad figures up to 4 spaces each.

:up:

Counter Tactics
Anytime an opponent's figure ends its movement within 4 clear sight spaces of any Unique Hero you control, you may choose up to 2 unengaged friendly figures you control and place them adjacent to the opponent's figure.

That's pretty cool, though would you be able to place those 2 figures from anywhere on the map? Like teleporting? That might be kind of scary to place Hulk and Grundy adjacent to that figure :shock:
True.... how about this:

Counter Tactics
Anytime an opponent's figure ends its movement within 4 clear sight spaces of any Unique Hero you control, you may choose up to 2 unengaged friendly common figures you control and place them adjacent to the opponent's figure.
Can I ask why 2 figures? 3 seems to make more sense. BTW, I love this power and hope you do BVS soon.

[Hahma]

Can I ask why 2 figures? 3 seems to make more sense. BTW, I love this power and hope you do BVS soon.

Well I think it's going to already going to be a pretty powerful/useful power even with 2 figures. I plan on having the Hydra Agents be a 3 figure squad and it would seem that 3 could make sense in that regard or with other 3 figure squads, but I think it would be just a little too powerful perhaps. It also says Common figures, so that could be Common Heroes and that might even be borderline over the top, but we'll have to see. Also, when Deathreavers use their Scatter power, you get to move 2 of them, so there is some precedence in a way for 2.

My plan is to do BVS right after Viper and then I'll do the Hydra Agents. That way, they will have 3 Ruthless Masterminds to choose from to use their Ruthless Mastermind Bonding power with (Viper, BVS and Red Skull). Then we can see how they work in conjunction with each other and since neither of the Ruthless Masterminds are HYDRA Agent specific, they can be totally completed and priced right and we can just see how well they'll gel with Viper's Lead By Example and Sacrifices Must Be Made, and how they work with BVS's Counter Tactics.

I really look forward to getting these three units done and see how fun they can hopefully be. :D

Once they're done, I can work on whoever and they won't have to be tied with anyone. I wanted to get the Hydra faction out of the way sooner than later, because I think it's important to have a subversive/terrorist faction to add more fun and different types of army builds.


Oh, I just thought of what Griff's devious little mind was thinking with this power, oh yea, I'm on to you mister man. ;)

[Griffin]

Yeah, as soon as I posted that I realized that was the intent of HIaW. Hmmmm.... what about an Ambush power that could surround an enemy with several common squad figures you control? That is pretty Master Minded.


Maybe something along the order of this rough thought:


Counter Tactics/Ambush/One Step Ahead/Counter Maneuvers/Counter Measures

Any time an opponent's figure moves to within 4 spaces of any Unique Hero you control, you may immediately move up to 3 of the same common squad figures up to 4 spaces each.

:up:

Counter Tactics
Anytime an opponent's figure ends its movement within 4 clear sight spaces of any Unique Hero you control, you may choose up to 2 unengaged friendly figures you control and place them adjacent to the opponent's figure.

That's pretty cool, though would you be able to place those 2 figures from anywhere on the map? Like teleporting? That might be kind of scary to place Hulk and Grundy adjacent to that figure :shock:
True.... how about this:

Counter Tactics
Anytime an opponent's figure ends its movement within 4 clear sight spaces of any Unique Hero you control, you may choose up to 2 unengaged friendly common figures you control and place them adjacent to the opponent's figure.
Can I ask why 2 figures? 3 seems to make more sense. BTW, I love this power and hope you do BVS soon.
That was just my first instinct to prevent things from becoming too powerful, but I think playtesting will ultimately be the judge.

[Griffin]

Too bad Bats is missing all the fun, though I imagine he's having fun too ;)
He did message me yesterday and say that he was already enjoying some of the finer marital "perks". :lol: You know how boys like to brag.

[Hahma]

Too bad Bats is missing all the fun, though I imagine he's having fun too ;)
He did message me yesterday and say that he was already enjoying some of the finer marital "perks". :lol: You know how boys like to brag.

Well he'll be bragging about his little wiener when he gets back :D


So I can see you drafting BVS with Business Suit Lex right? Particularly against Superman :twisted:

Can you say Criminal Entrapment?

[Griffin]

Too bad Bats is missing all the fun, though I imagine he's having fun too ;)
He did message me yesterday and say that he was already enjoying some of the finer marital "perks". :lol: You know how boys like to brag.

Well he'll be bragging about his little wiener when he gets back :D


So I can see you drafting BVS with Business Suit Lex right? Particularly against Superman :twisted:

Can you say Criminal Entrapment?
Oh nice combo brother. Lets see if I can rep you for that one....


EDIT: Yep :D

[Hahma]

Playtest is updated and complete. I linked it on the first post.

I won't be around, so if you want to do anything here to move this along Griff to ERB while I'm away, that's fine.

If I can, I'll check back in later (if I can squeeze it in). I'll be back Monday night, so I'll check in then. But if you want to leave this as is until then, that's cool, as it really isn't tool long to wait. I'm in no hurry as I'm sure there are a lot of other pressing matters and such. :)

Anyway, everyone have a great next several days. :D

[Hahma]

Okay, I'm heading out to the airport shortly and have a minute. So in order to at least get through the 48 hour voting period by time I get back Monday night, I propose that Viper get moved to ERB phase.

[Griffin]

Okay, I'm heading out to the airport shortly and have a minute. So in order to at least get through the 48 hour voting period by time I get back Monday night, I propose that Viper get moved to ERB phase.
Have a good vacation, and I vote yes.

[Griffin]

:bump: Voting here.

[whitestuff]

Yea

[GreyOwl]

Yea

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Fo' Shizzle!

[Griffin]

This proposal passed, and I am gonna send it out to two members with the new system, cause I don't know what else to do, and no one has really commented or voted on it.....

[Hahma]

This proposal passed, and I am gonna send it out to two members with the new system, cause I don't know what else to do, and no one has really commented or voted on it.....


Thanks Griff. :D

I had a minute to access hotel computer. Everything looks good. I'll check in again if I can from hotel sometime or wait until Monday night when I get back home.

[Griffin]

The ERB review from Aldin:
I'm not particularly familiar with Viper, though I read up on her before I seriously considered the custom. I'm a little surprised to see her as a leadership figure instead of a weapons figure, but that's my only applicable theme comment.

Base stats look fine for her leadership version. If she is changed to weaken her leadership abilities I would think she could be given stronger combat stats without breaking theme.

Venom Strikes SA looks fine. Basically, it is a better deal against high defense heroes or ones where a special attack is preferable to a normal one. Her ranged attack of four will usually be better anyway.

Lead By Example makes me nervous. It encourages her use with squads. Especially cheap four member squads that get the maximum benefit from a boost. But since it also takes one of three OMs from those cheap squads I can live with it. It does make her+squad potentially more dangerous vs. heroes than just squads typically are alone.

Sacrifices Must Be Made is too powerful. It makes her effectively immune to any melee hero with a single attack. Say Hulk hits her for 8 wounds, no problem - dump 'em on the Deathreaver behind her to kill it instead. Since she can reinforce Rats a lot faster than Hulk can kill them, she always wins.

And Rats aren't the only squad that would be really ugly combined with her. How about Zombies moving six figs per OM or Marro Dividers using the damage as an opportunity to cell divide - each gaining the bonus attack die from Lead By Example?

Combining her with Ashigaru similarly maximizes the cost per lifepoint while looking for bonus dice. Combining her with Minions or Omnicron Snipers is also problematic. It's too bad, because I really like the concepts - I just think they're too exploitable at the moment.

~Aldin, theoryscapingly

[Hahma]

The ERB review from Aldin:
I'm not particularly familiar with Viper, though I read up on her before I seriously considered the custom. I'm a little surprised to see her as a leadership figure instead of a weapons figure, but that's my only applicable theme comment.

Base stats look fine for her leadership version. If she is changed to weaken her leadership abilities I would think she could be given stronger combat stats without breaking theme.

Venom Strikes SA looks fine. Basically, it is a better deal against high defense heroes or ones where a special attack is preferable to a normal one. Her ranged attack of four will usually be better anyway.

Lead By Example makes me nervous. It encourages her use with squads. Especially cheap four member squads that get the maximum benefit from a boost. But since it also takes one of three OMs from those cheap squads I can live with it. It does make her+squad potentially more dangerous vs. heroes than just squads typically are alone.

Sacrifices Must Be Made is too powerful. It makes her effectively immune to any melee hero with a single attack. Say Hulk hits her for 8 wounds, no problem - dump 'em on the Deathreaver behind her to kill it instead. Since she can reinforce Rats a lot faster than Hulk can kill them, she always wins.

And Rats aren't the only squad that would be really ugly combined with her. How about Zombies moving six figs per OM or Marro Dividers using the damage as an opportunity to cell divide - each gaining the bonus attack die from Lead By Example?

Combining her with Ashigaru similarly maximizes the cost per lifepoint while looking for bonus dice. Combining her with Minions or Omnicron Snipers is also problematic. It's too bad, because I really like the concepts - I just think they're too exploitable at the moment.

~Aldin, theoryscapingly




Basically, this Viper is a combo of Viper/Madame Hydra, thus giving her more of a leadership version because even as Viper, she ran criminal organizations.

Even in this version, she could be given stronger combat stats because she is a real badass fighter. However, these stats are there to keep her from being too badass considering the other powers she has.

Venom Strikes, is a good situational attack as Aldin suggested and is good vs. special defenses that are bypassed by special attacks or high defenses. It is particularly good vs. Flash's Evade, so Flash better watch out. :D

Lead by Example can be scary if everything line up right. She'd have to kill a unique hero on OM 1 or 2 for it to be effective and the squads can get a great benefit, but it's no guarantee. Also, her relying on having squads as teamates makes it easy for opponent's to counter her with squad busters.

Regarding Sacrifices Must be Made being too powerful, well this is why her base stats are lower than it could be. She's a single attacking unit with a range of 7 attack of 4 or range of 2 Venomous Strikes. She's not all that intimidating and if she has a bunch of cheap squads protecting her, then you have the cost of her and the squads that she sacrifices added to the cost of the army. So with just her @ 180 and 1 squad of Rats @ 40, that's 220 points. Now take Cap at 220 and he can Shield Throw against those Rats protecting her and only face a single attack of 4 until he kills the rats and can take her on, so it's not that crazy powerfull IMO. Sure the Hulk example is there, but what if you had Raelin adjacent to Cops, Hulk attacks Raelin and a Cop takes the wounds.

Again, for Viper to max out her powers, she needs squads in her army. There are so many squad counters that the opponent can use that I don't think she'd be overly scary with her current powers. I mean, Q9, Q10, Zelrig, Nilf, Flash, Cap, Punisher, Daredevil can all help counter Viper and her squads.

[IAmBatman]

I'm really liking where she's at.
Any thoughts on restricting "Sacrifices Must Be Made" to just "Terrorist" figures - or whatever class we want for the HYDRA agents? (I like the a little bit shorter and less dialogue sounding "Necessary Sacrifices" as a name there instead, by the way).
Maybe it's not necessary, though - have you tested her with rats yet? Without bonding it might be more difficult to pull off that trick with others, and it's not like her attack potential is so great that keeping her around until the end is gamebreaking (though maybe it's her leadership power with squads that makes it scary?).

[Griffin]

I'm really liking where she's at.
Any thoughts on restricting "Sacrifices Must Be Made" to just "Terrorist" figures - or whatever class we want for the HYDRA agents? (I like the a little bit shorter and less dialogue sounding "Necessary Sacrifices" as a name there instead, by the way).
Maybe it's not necessary, though - have you tested her with rats yet? Without bonding it might be more difficult to pull off that trick with others, and it's not like her attack potential is so great that keeping her around until the end is gamebreaking (though maybe it's her leadership power with squads that makes it scary?).
I am leaning towards the safer side with Bats and Aldin on the Necessary Sacrifices...

[Hahma]

I'm really liking where she's at.
Any thoughts on restricting "Sacrifices Must Be Made" to just "Terrorist" figures - or whatever class we want for the HYDRA agents? (I like the a little bit shorter and less dialogue sounding "Necessary Sacrifices" as a name there instead, by the way).
Maybe it's not necessary, though - have you tested her with rats yet? Without bonding it might be more difficult to pull off that trick with others, and it's not like her attack potential is so great that keeping her around until the end is gamebreaking (though maybe it's her leadership power with squads that makes it scary?).
I am leaning towards the safer side with Bats and Aldin on the Necessary Sacrifices...

So to be safe are we wanting to restrict Necessary Sacrifices to only work with Terrorists? That's what I have penciled in for the Hydra Agents' class. I'm fine with it, though it will reduce her usefulness and cost by quite a bit, but that's fine too.

[IAmBatman]

I think it makes a lot of sense both thematically and in terms of game balance.

[Hahma]

I updated the first page. I dropped her cost to 150 and that will likely be too high, as destroying a 23.3 point figure to save a 7 range 4 attack unit will likely not be worth it that often. (Edit: I'll drop her cost to 140) It's also not going to be too attractive to surround a unit like her with 70 points of a squad just to be roasted by Zelrig, Ice Sharded by Nilf, Shield Thrown by Cap, Canary Cried, Optic Blasted, Exploding Arrowed, Shotgunned, Queglix Gunned, Chomped etc. etc.

[Hahma]

ERB time is up and only have Aldin's response. Changes have been made and I think Viper should be placed on hold for the time being until Hydra Agents have gone through the whole process as she cannot be successfully playtested without Hydra Agents.

So I propose that Viper be placed on hold and kept from playtest phase until the Hydra Agents have been completed.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Yeah.

[GreyOwl]

Yea

[Griffin]

Sure.

[Hahma]

I'm switching her over to Madame Hydra vs. Viper as she has progressed to become more Madame Hydra-like than Viper-like and this title will make more thematic sense for her.

I didn't propose this as I figured I would do so only if someone has a problem with the name change.

[A3n]

I missed this thread completely. Sorry Hahma, I will try to catch up on it.

Cheers

[whitestuff]

Hold her back? Sure, it makes sense.

Yea.

[Griffin]

NECESSARY SACRIFICES - Anytime Madame Hydra rolls defense dice against an attack and would receive 1 or more wounds, choose 1 Terrorist figure you control adjacent to Madame Hydra. Instead of giving any wounds to Madame Hydra, you may give the chosen figure all wounds Madame Hydra would have received from that attack.

What if we could just stipulate that the figure must be Unique. That would allow Unique Squad figures, Uncommon Hero figures, and Unique Hero figures to take wounds for her. Surely that would avoid the potential dangers that Aldin spelled out for us, and also allow us to move forward with her now instead of latter.

NECESSARY SACRIFICES - Anytime Madame Hydra rolls defense dice against an attack and would receive 1 or more wounds, choose 1 Unique figure you control adjacent to Madame Hydra. Instead of giving any wounds to Madame Hydra, you may give the chosen figure all wounds Madame Hydra would have received from that attack.

[A3n]

She is looking good (I have only picked out a few posts here & there to read) & I can see why you would want to wait for the Hydra Agents so Yea.

I hope that placing her on hold does imply Hahma can start another design thread :p.

Cheers

[Griffin]

I hope that placing her on hold does imply Hahma can start another design thread :p.
Definitely. :D Though I wonder if my suggestion could help her to move along now instead.

[Hahma]

NECESSARY SACRIFICES - Anytime Madame Hydra rolls defense dice against an attack and would receive 1 or more wounds, choose 1 Terrorist figure you control adjacent to Madame Hydra. Instead of giving any wounds to Madame Hydra, you may give the chosen figure all wounds Madame Hydra would have received from that attack.What if we could just stipulate that the figure must be Unique. That would allow Unique Squad figures, Uncommon Hero figures, and Unique Hero figures to take wounds for her. Surely that would avoid the potential dangers that Aldin spelled out for us, and also allow us to move forward with her now instead of latter.

NECESSARY SACRIFICES - Anytime Madame Hydra rolls defense dice against an attack and would receive 1 or more wounds, choose 1 Unique figure you control adjacent to Madame Hydra. Instead of giving any wounds to Madame Hydra, you may give the chosen figure all wounds Madame Hydra would have received from that attack.


I'm not really a big fan of that Griff, sorry. When you get a Unique Squad figure killed, that's a big kick in the nuts and totally reduces usefulness of that Unique Squad. Uncommon Heroes are a pain in the ass unless there is some bonding and Unique Heroes would be okay in certain situations with Hulk, Krug, BVS, Troll, Finn, Thorgrim etc.,

Madame Hydra isn't that great of a unit to keep alive by destroying Unique Squads or taking life points away from most Unique Heroes. My vision of an Army with Madame Hydra isn't Her, Finn, Thorgrim, 3 Fire Elementals, Krug and 2 common squads of somebody just in case she kills a Unique Hero and she gets to use Lead By Example. I'd rather not just throw this power on her for the sake of moving her along.


I'm personally not as concerned as Aldin was about the powers of Necessary Sacrifices or Lead By Example, as LBE isn't an automatic and only lasts for that round, so you'd have to time it right with her killing a UH and having OM's on squad figures to try to take advantage of it. Omni's and Minions get a +1 to attack as long as they are engaged to Cap, but whatever. And while Necessary Sacrifices will keep a 7 range 4 attack unit alive longer, it will also make her and her posse a big target for any kind of area of affect attacks. They'd be set up like bowling pins ready to be bowled over. But for the sake of safety and making sure she's not going to be gamebreaking, I can live with making a change, as we don't want the Classic Scapers complaining about her in the "Books of" like they do with Thor.

How about this change:

NECESSARY SACRIFICES - Anytime Madame Hydra rolls defense dice against an attack and would receive 1 or more wounds, choose 1 Terrorist or Criminal figure you control adjacent to Madame Hydra. Instead of giving any wounds to Madame Hydra, you may give the chosen figure all wounds Madame Hydra would have received from that attack.




This would allow her to move on with playtesting and be tested with Thugs to be able to use Necessary Sacrifices. It would also allow for its rare use with future Criminal Uncommon Heroes or Unique Heroes.

This would make her more draftable than if she were just able to sacrifice terrorists, though certainly not as costly as she originally was when she could throw wounds on anyone. I would change her back to Viper, as she'd be less Hydra specific. Previously with Terrorist only for NS, I wouldn't see any reason why you'd have any other common squad figures besides Hydra Agents in her army to take advantage of LBE. If she could only bond with Hydra Agents and only Sacrifice Hydra Agents, why would you have any other common squads in her army? Not to mention, if you have that many Hydra Agents, you would maybe want other Ruthless Masterminds like BVS and RS to take advantage of Bonding and that would eat up points.



So I'd say we can:

A) Keep her Terrorist specific wording in there and put her on hold until Hydra Agents are passed through and making her a niche unit (which I'd really hate and be disappointed with).

B) Change it to include Terrorists and Criminals to allow her to move on, as well as be more draftable.

C) Drop the power totally and come up with something altogether different for her.


Sorry about the wordy post, but I couldn't help it. I'll try to get better as I really want to cut back my time online, and wasting it with long winded posts isn't helping :D

[A3n]

Why not just a "Squad" figure? This will still keep the basic theme that she is charge of what rag-tag squad you mix her with, the player using her has the choice if it's a unique or common squad, & she won't be so niche-y (nothing to do with Nietzschean's from Andromeda :p).


Ok I now see that's where she was before making it terrorists, so I really got nothing. Maybe human squad?

Cheers

[whitestuff]

I'm inclined to think that it should be just terrorists...

To me criminals and terrorists are just too different. Different goals and methodology...

[Hahma]

I'm inclined to think that it should be just terrorists...

To me criminals and terrorists are just too different. Different goals and methodology...


This is from the Marvel Comic Database, so this is where I see the tie in to criminals. However, as with anything, the majority vote makes things happen, so I'm fine with whatever the majority decides.

Powers and Abilities

Powers


Retarded Aging: Viper’s aging process was greatly slowed by her pact with the Elder God Chthon (http://marvel.wikia.com/Chthon). It is unclear if she has retained this gift since defying him.
Toxins Immunity: Madame Hydra has rendered herself immune to most toxins via controlled exposure.Abilities

Viper is a brilliant and cunning criminal strategist who has been rigorously trained in various martial arts. She is also a skilled markswoman and expert in the use of a bullwhip. Viper is highly skilled in the management of criminal organizations and very well connected in the international criminal underworld. She is also a master of stealth and espionage. Perhaps her greatest strengths are her influence, the financial resources at her disposal due to her stature in organized crime, and an uncanny luck which has allowed her to cheat death in situations where lesser people would have died.

Viper is also extremely knowledgeable in the properties and uses of toxins, poisons, and snake venoms, frequently creating her own poisons that she spreads through her hollow fangs or poisoned lipstick.

[GreyOwl]

Definitely only Terrorists. I think the Marvel database is using "criminals" in a broader sense that include terrorists, not in the more limited definition of "criminal" that we've been operating under.

[Griffin]

A. sorry, I hope you don't mind working on Hydra Agents soon.

[Hahma]

A. sorry, I hope you don't mind working on Hydra Agents soon.


Nothing to be sorry about, I'll start a Hydra Agent thread when I get a chance.

[A3n]

yeah A has my vote also.

[Hahma]

I made a couple changes to the first post.

She's Madame Hydra now.

She's been put on hold status until Hydra Agents are done.

I made her Lead By Example power specific to Terrorist common squads for two reasons:

First - To alleviate concerns about her being able to boost Minions, Omnicrons or any others that could be dangerous.

Second - To make her consistently able to only affect Terrorist class units. It wouldn't make sense thematically for her boost any common squad figure while only being able to destroy a Terrorist figure for Necessary Sacrifices.



I also changed Venomous Strikes to be Venomous Strike. While at first it seemed cool for her to be able to attack again if she destroys a figure with this special power (most likely a squad figure), upon further review, that wouldn't make real sense in that I don't think she'd have time to wait to see if a figure is destroyed before biting/kissing or throwing another dart at a different figure. So I think it makes sense to keep it as a single attack option only.

[Griffin]

She's Madame Hydra now.
I really prefer Viper, but perhaps you could explain to me why she is more Madame Hydra now and less Viper with the changes. I admit that I do not know near as much about the character as you do.


I made her Lead By Example power specific to Terrorist common squads for two reasons:

First - To alleviate concerns about her being able to boost Minions, Omnicrons or any others that could be dangerous.

Second - To make her consistently able to only affect Terrorist class units. It wouldn't make sense thematically for her boost any common squad figure while only being able to destroy a Terrorist figure for Necessary Sacrifices.I agree, but I think you could just leave it at Terrorist in case we have an Uncommon, Unique Hero, or Unique Squad that is a Terrorist one day.

I also changed Venomous Strikes to be Venomous Strike. While at first it seemed cool for her to be able to attack again if she destroys a figure with this special power (most likely a squad figure), upon further review, that wouldn't make real sense in that I don't think she'd have time to wait to see if a figure is destroyed before biting/kissing or throwing another dart at a different figure. So I think it makes sense to keep it as a single attack option only.Wow, I think that was a great big ol mistake. With being able to affect multiple opponents in this way, potentially, it gives her so much more drafting potential. It isn't something that is going to happen very often, but when it does, how cool it is. Plus, this is a very unique way to counter squad scape. I think you took away one of the most unique and coolest things on her card. I want it back. :evil: :Pout:

[Hahma]

I really prefer Viper, but perhaps you could explain to me why she is more Madame Hydra now and less Viper with the changes. I admit that I do not know near as much about the character as you do. The only part of Viper that is remaining of her is Venomous Strike, other than that she is totally set up now to be only usable with Hydra Agents, so to me at least, it makes more sense to call her Madame Hydra as this version is portraying the Hydra leader more than Viper IMO.

I agree, but I think you could just leave it at Terrorist in case we have an Uncommon, Unique Hero, or Unique Squad that is a Terrorist one day.I could do that just in case, but I'm not holding my breath that there will be any other Terrorist units coming down the line. I don't plan on doing any anyway.

Wow, I think that was a great big ol mistake. With being able to affect multiple opponents in this way, potentially, it gives her so much more drafting potential. It isn't something that is going to happen very often, but when it does, how cool it is. Plus, this is a very unique way to counter squad scape. I think you took away one of the most unique and coolest things on her card. I want it back. :evil: :Pout: I just didn't think it meant thematic sense enough to keep it. It can potentially be too powerful if she could kill a 2 wound Flash and put 2 wounds on Superman. She's only draftable as it is with Hydra Agents and they should be able to counter squad scape for her. I also don't want the extra chance of her getting multiple attacks with Venomous Strikes to boost her cost. This version of her shouldn't cost much and I am trying to keep her cost down so that she can be draftable.

[Griffin]

I don't think the VS with multiple attack potential is going to be too expensive, because it does require a bit of luck to pull off the chain. I think it may raise her cost some, like 10 point maybe, but the fact that she will bond with Hydra Agents and the fact that she can work well with the criminal faction along side of Red Skull, she would still have plenty of draftability even if her cost was a tad high like Red Skull. Btw, Red Skull has a multiple effect on his Dust of Death which is poison.... why can't Madame Hydra/Viper?

[Hahma]

I don't think the VS with multiple attack potential is going to be too expensive, because it does require a bit of luck to pull off the chain. I think it may raise her cost some, like 10 point maybe, but the fact that she will bond with Hydra Agents and the fact that she can work well with the criminal faction along side of Red Skull, she would still have plenty of draftability even if her cost was a tad high like Red Skull. Btw, Red Skull has a multiple effect on his Dust of Death which is poison.... why can't Madame Hydra/Viper?

That 10 points might be enough to make her less draftable for such a slight chance of pulling off killing a couple squaddies. I mean, Kaemon Awa at 120 has same life, attack, range and can get 2 special attacks of 4 at range of 4. Sure he can't bond, but he does have counter strike to kill or scare off some melee squads or wound a "single attack figure like the Hulk" and he's only 120 points.

How can she work well with the criminal faction along side Red Skull? She adds nothing to the criminals and while Red Skull can activate her or another UH, if she's not bonding with Hydra Agents, then she's not worth her value and again, I'd rather have Kaemon Awa for only 120 points being activated by Red Skull than Madame Hydra for a lot more points.

Red Skull has high points because of OM management for Unique Heroes, and now Uncommon Heroes. He can sit back and chill in the back and be effective. Madame Hydra has to be in the middle of the battle to be effective and for her to stay alive she has to kill points off her team all the while making herself and her Hydra Agents big targets to massive attacks from Zelrig, Punisher, Daredevil etc. Heck, a 120 point Pyro will devastate her little safety cushion.

Dust of Death can affect multiple adjacent opponents because it's Dust and he can spread the cloud around to affect more figures close by or he can throw a concentrated handful of it for a single more distant opponent. He also doesn't have to sit there and wait until someone dies before he can attack another one. It's kind of two different types of attacks. There's dust that is in by nature cloudy when tossed, vs. a kiss/bite or dart. Heck, Chilling Touch can only affect figure whether it kills them or not.


Edit: In the end, considering how much/little interest there's been for this character thus far other than from you and I, I don't think adding a chance of multiple attacks from VS would make a difference other than make her cost go up to the point where the majority of people that aren't interested in the character or Hydra faction will choose someone they care about or are at least more familiar with. They'd see her points, gloss over Venomous Strikes and maybe not even realize she can attack multiples with it and then they'll move on because they don't have Hydra Agent figures, don't want to use proxies or just don't have any interest in a Hydra Faction Army.

As Matt Helm has been quoted: "Don't fall in love with your design." So thus have I lost my love for her and am ready to just make her as draftable as possible in a realistic fashion. They all don't have to be 'A' units, I certainly get tired of trying to explain how to play the game to people that think our units are broken.

[Griffin]

I think your wrong on this one, big time. And I will fight for it back if I have to. :D

Every common, uncommon, and unique squad coming down the criminal pipe has boosting, bonding, and tactical advantages offered to Crime Lords and Masterminds. She will definitely be an asset to the criminal faction in the near future as long as she remains a Mastermind.

As far as Matt Helm's "not falling in love" line, applied here, that is :bs:. When I work collaboratively with my group or a couple guys I respect as designers, and we create something I love, I don't need to be ashamed to say "I LOVE THE OLDER VERSION MUCH MUCH MUCH BETTER!!" ;)

~ Griffin, unashamedly

[Hahma]

I changed it back to Venomous Strikes. I hope it makes her more draftable.

I loved the much older version much better before and not as much now. Unashamedly. But this isn't my custom, so I don't have to love it. :) And no, it's not about not getting my way.

Time will tell how usable she'll be or effective. So despite what comes down the line in the Criminal Faction, she'll always need to add 2 to 3 squads of Hydra Agents to maximize her effectiveness. So count on spending 260-340 points of your army on her and her Hydra Agents.

[Griffin]

I changed it back to Venomous Strikes. I hope it makes her more draftable.

I loved the much older version much better before and not as much now. Unashamedly. But this isn't my custom, so I don't have to love it. :) And no, it's not about not getting my way.

Time will tell how usable she'll be or effective. So despite what comes down the line in the Criminal Faction, she'll always need to add 2 to 3 squads of Hydra Agents to maximize her effectiveness. So count on spending 260-340 points of your army on her and her Hydra Agents.
There are Body Guards that can move instead of her, Hired Guns that can attack instead of her, a common squad of Henchmen that have reverse bonding with her, your Hydra agents can bond with her, and Kingpin will be able to activate her. And all because she has Master Mind as her class. I think she is going to have a lot of draftability even if she is a tad pricey. And again, Venomous Strikes isn't really adding much cost difference when compared to just Venomous Strike.

Now I don't want to get all puffy just because I got what I want, I want us all to have each custom to be a work of art that we agree on by majority, and trust that that majority knows better than any single one of us. Perhaps a quick poll would be best, and I will suck it up if I don't get what "I" want.... because ultimately, I know "you" and "I" both want the best that our "group" can create.




Do you prefer
A Venomous Strike as a special attack that only attacks one figure per turn
or
B Venomous Strikes as a special attack that can attack multple figures per turn on the condition that the first defender is destroyed by it



I like B. It is a fun interesting mechanic that gives her a bit of an edge and scare tactic against squads. :up:

[A3n]

I like B also. While the use of multiple squads to combat unique heroes wasn't available to Marvel scape we are introducing more squads so having options to stop squads is a welcome addition to any army. Rocks - Paper - Scissors, it all makes great choices for strategy.

Cheers

[GreyOwl]

I agree, B is cool.

[Hahma]

There are Body Guards that can move instead of her, Hired Guns that can attack instead of her, a common squad of Henchmen that have reverse bonding with her, your Hydra agents can bond with her, and Kingpin will be able to activate her. And all because she has Master Mind as her class. I think she is going to have a lot of draftability even if she is a tad pricey. And again, Venomous Strikes isn't really adding much cost difference when compared to just Venomous Strike.

How pricey are you thinking?

Now I don't want to get all puffy just because I got what I want, I want us all to have each custom to be a work of art that we agree on by majority, and trust that that majority knows better than any single one of us. Perhaps a quick poll would be best, and I will suck it up if I don't get what "I" want.... because ultimately, I know "you" and "I" both want the best that our "group" can create.




Do you prefer
A Venomous Strike as a special attack that only attacks one figure per turn
or
B Venomous Strikes as a special attack that can attack multple figures per turn on the condition that the first defender is destroyed by it


B ( I already changed it back to Venomous Strikes)

[Griffin]

Ha, I did my calculation for points, and when I looked at the front page again, I realized that you and I came to the same conclusion; 140 points. I think that is a good starting point for playtesting, though I think it could go down to 120 in the heavy hitter tests, and possibly as high as 150 in the Army Tests.

[Hahma]

Ha, I did my calculation for points, and when I looked at the front page again, I realized that you and I came to the same conclusion; 140 points. I think that is a good starting point for playtesting, though I think it could go down to 120 in the heavy hitter tests, and possibly as high as 150 in the Army Tests.

Or down to 130 in Army tests if opponent's counter her with appropriate cluster busting armies which I will require for at least 1 army test from each playtester, as well as one army test with squads in it. I don't want to see the same old very limiting Superman/Batman combo in these tests.

Too bad they won't have access to Punisher or Daredevil. :twisted:

[Griffin]

Ha, I did my calculation for points, and when I looked at the front page again, I realized that you and I came to the same conclusion; 140 points. I think that is a good starting point for playtesting, though I think it could go down to 120 in the heavy hitter tests, and possibly as high as 150 in the Army Tests.

Or down to 130 in Army tests if opponent's counter her with appropriate cluster busting armies which I will require for at least 1 army test from each playtester, as well as one army test with squads in it. I don't want to see the same old very limiting Superman/Batman combo in these tests.I agree. You busted my b@lls on that one and you were right, so I changed and started using some newer interesting army builds.

Too bad they won't have access to Punisher or Daredevil. :twisted:
But we will, and I use em too. :twisted:

[Spidey'tilIDie]

B. And for the record, Hahma, don't assume from the fact I'm not commenting that I don't care about a design. I have been reading along because I love Viper and HYDRA, but not so suprisingly, I just don't have much to add to your comments/designs or Griff's here. Just great stuff from you both. :thumbsup:

[IAmBatman]

B and B on the earlier one. I honestly think she should be able to work with Criminals as well.

[whitestuff]

I honestly think she should be able to work with Criminals as well.
I've been rethinking my position on this as well...

I could live with the Crims.

[Hahma]

Well considering there was some 11th hour support, I figure I might as well propose a vote to get an official verdict so when the time to move back to this unit comes, at least that will be resolved.

Do you prefer
A Madame Hydra to work with only Terrorists with her Lead By Example and Necessary Sacrifices powers.

or

B Madame Hydra to work with both Terrorists and Criminals with Lead By Example and Necessary Sacrifices powers.

For the record my vote is B

[Griffin]

Well considering there was some 11th hour support, I figure I might as well propose a vote to get an official verdict so when the time to move back to this unit comes, at least that will be resolved.

Do you prefer
A Madame Hydra to work with only Terrorists with her Lead By Example and Necessary Sacrifices powers.

or

B Madame Hydra to work with both Terrorists and Criminals with Lead By Example and Necessary Sacrifices powers.

For the record my vote is B
I hate to do this to ya buddy, cause I know how bad you want B, but the thing I really like about A is how smooth it bridges that Hydra faction to her, and also, I really think the criminal faction needs to be toned down a bit in membership, before it gets really carried away.

I vote A.

[GreyOwl]

I vote A, for pretty much the same reasons as Griffin.

[whitestuff]

I was A and I'm still...

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb279/bwhit89/netpic/fonzie-703699.jpg

[Hahma]

No problem, I understand your concerns and it's cool. I just wanted to find out for sure which way to proceed once the Hydra Agents are done since there was no official vote before. I figured I'd try to establish this direction while waiting for the Hydra Agents so that once they are ready, we can pick right up here without wasting time with a vote starting things off. This way, it will be decided and go directly to Prelim playtesting as soon as the agents are finalized. :)

[IAmBatman]

Oye, I hate to do this, but:

C Lead by Example stays just Terrorist and Necessary Sacrifice goes Terrorist or Criminal.
I don't think the second power is a balance issue or a huge point booster if she includes criminals and it shows she's comfortable networking with them. But she should have greater synergy with terrorists and I'd prefer to limit her offensive boost a bit considering we already have a few offensive boosts out there that are criminal-specific as it is.

[Hahma]

I'd be fine with that C option. Being that she's a Mastermind, at least she'd be able to be playable with Criminals, so if she gets to knock them off to save her bacon, that works for me and they wouldn't get overpowered by her Lead By Example.

[IAmBatman]

Yep, that's where I'm coming from.

[IAmBatman]

Soo ... I think it's reasonable to revisit this one now that the HYDRA agents are done and the majority of the Fan Four stuff has slowed down.

[Hahma]

Okay, back by popular demand. Since things are kind of slowed down to a degree with FF set, I've decided to throw caution to the wind and open this design thread back up. Besides, I just got done reading a 4 part series with Hawkeye (right after Mockingbird "died" and he went up against Viper and her hirelings. Good stuff and got me motivated again for her.

In the previous episode, we had a vote regarding some of Madame Hydra's powers and who they work with. Some Heroes voted when just A and B options were presented and some didn't vote. Bats offered his suggestion for option C, which I support. So I'm going to re-post this vote with option C included.

Either way, this will be the last thing needed and then she should be prelim tested again. Then I guess we have to send her back to ERB and the usual stuff.

Do you prefer
A Madame Hydra to work with only Terrorists with her Lead By Example and Necessary Sacrifices powers.

B Madame Hydra to work with both Terrorists and Criminals with Lead By Example and Necessary Sacrifices powers.

C Lead by Example stays just Terrorist and Necessary Sacrifice goes Terrorist or Criminal.

[IAmBatman]

Well far be it for me not to vote for my own option ... C :-D

[A3n]

I vote C as well.

[IAmBatman]

Oh, and GreyOwl (kinda) votes C :-D

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Put me down for two C's. (even though I am sure one would be an "abstain" if I weren't proxying.)

EDIT: Sorry, Nyquil is kicking in.

[IAmBatman]

Which letter ... ?

[whitestuff]

Give me a 'C'!

[Hahma]

I like C as well. So far that makes 7 for C and waiting on Sir G and Griff.

[SirGalahad]

C for me

How many other Criminals and Terrorists will be coming down the road?

[Hahma]

C for me

How many other Criminals and Terrorists will be coming down the road?

Well I'd think that maybe A.I.M. Agents could be Terrorists and perhaps there could sometime be some generic Uncommon Hero Terrorists (who know? )

I'm not totally sure about other Criminals as Griff is working on the Criminal Faction, but there would be some villain Unique Heroes that could be Criminals like Absorbing Man and several of the Spidey villains. But we'll have to see I guess.

[IAmBatman]

Terrorists? Probably not all that many.
Criminals? Tons.

[Griffin]

I am also in favor of Cs, though if you had some Double Ds, I might be tempted. :twisted:

[IAmBatman]

C passes unanimously.

[Hahma]

Sorry, no double D's for Griff. :D

First post is updated with addition of Criminals to Necessary Sacrifices.

She's ready for initial playtest. I did the original Initial Playtest before changes, so if someone else wants a crack at her, that would be cool. Otherwise I'll do her again.

I know Bats is doing Swamp Thing with Skrull Warriors next on his list to do. Griff is messing with Scenarios I guess. So maybe Sir G can take on Madame Hydra if he has time. :pray:

[Griffin]

Sorry, double D's for Griff. :D Otherwise I'll do her again.
OK I am done now. :twisted:

[Griffin]

Ahem, isn't anyone gonna come to Hahma's rescue here?

[IAmBatman]

Next on my list after the Commish. What do you want? :reapershrug: If you want to tackle her before Avalanche, that's cool.

[Hahma]

No big deal guys, we have limited resources and lots of testing. I have one more army test for Namor (have to do one on non-water map now) and then I'll be done with him. He is kind of a pain in the butt because of water/non-water balance and pricing, as well as mid-level tests (one on water, one non-water) etc. I'm looking forward to a more straight forward unit to test next :D

[Griffin]

No big deal guys, we have limited resources and lots of testing. I have one more army test for Namor (have to do one on non-water map now) and then I'll be done with him. He is kind of a pain in the butt because of water/non-water balance and pricing, as well as mid-level tests (one on water, one non-water) etc. I'm looking forward to a more straight forward unit to test next :D
Yeah, straight forward units are nice when you can grab em. :)

[Griffin]

Next on my list after the Commish. What do you want? :reapershrug: If you want to tackle her before Avalanche, that's cool.
I was not aware you had called dibs. You probably told me and I forgot. Go ahead, and take your time. :p

[IAmBatman]

I just finished one army test for Gordon, but I've got a seminar tonight and a house guest for the night, so that's it until tomorrow, sadly. I'll definitely finish it up tomorrow, though, and then Madame HYDRA hopefully will at least be started before I leave town Friday (but, ideally, finished).

[Hahma]

I just finished one army test for Gordon, but I've got a seminar tonight and a house guest for the night, so that's it until tomorrow, sadly. I'll definitely finish it up tomorrow, though, and then Madame HYDRA hopefully will at least be started before I leave town Friday (but, ideally, finished).


Cool. But don't over do it. A few extra days won't kill anything if you can't finish until you get back. :)

[IAmBatman]

Oh, I know, I'll just do what I can. If I really wanted to overdo it, I'd try to test John Stewart and that Atlantean Glyph too ... :-P

[IAmBatman]

C3G PLAY TEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT MADAME HYDRA

- THEME TEST/ Check to see if there are any powers or stats on the test unit card that does not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character would and could do. Also consider destructible objects, and whether or not this characters powers should affect them.
PASS

- MIRROR TEST/ Check to see if the unit were played against itself, if there would be any loops that would upset the balance of the Game.
PASS

- BONDING TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing Bonding abilities to make sure there are no continual Bonding possibilities that do not stop appropriately or do not stop at all. This is to prevent loops in Bonding.
PASS

- SYNERGIES TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing synergies to make sure there are no factors that could break the game by making any unit to powerful or too weak.
PASS

- POWER CHECK/ Consider the test unit and all existing units and all glyphs to compare to and check for any powers that could be over amplified and break the game. Each power must define when it takes place, who or what it affects, and What are the stipulations on the power if there are any.
PASS

- FUN TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play.
PASS

- FUN COMPETITIVE TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play against.
PASS Venomous Strikes alone is tons of fun! :-)

- DRAFTING TEST/ Consider whether or not this design is worth drafting.
PASS (especially with the Lead By Example change)

- USAGE TEST/ Consider whether or not all of the powers on this card were used or at least usable.
PASS (especially with the Lead By Example change)

- STRATEGY TEST/ Consider whether or not the design offers any real strategy or interesting tactics to the overall game.
PASS

- Heavy Hitter or Mid-Level Hero/ Does it pass?

TEST 1
Map: Martian Warzone: The Heat
Units: Madame HYDRA (140) vs. Harley Quinn (130)
Madame HYDRA wins on Turn 2 of Round 2 with 1 life left. All three of Madame HYDRA's wounds came from the bomb Harley tossed on her first turn. Madame HYDRA hit Harley for one with her Venomous Strikes, then lava damage got Harley for a second wound, then Madame HYDRA finished off Harley with a 2 skull roll for Venomous Strikes that circumvented Acrobatic Maneuvers.

TEST 2
Map: Martian Warzone: The Heat
Units: Madame HYDRA (140) vs. Jonah Hex (130)
Jonah Hex wins on Turn 1 of Round 2 with 3 life left. Hex is a beast one-on-one given his auto skull from range, +3 to attack up close, and +1/1 bonus from Bounty Hunter! Madame HYDRA did manage to land a 2 skull attack with Venomous Strikes to put both wounds on Hex, but even with height she just couldn't handle all of Hex's stat boosts.

TEST 3
Map: Martian Warzone: The Heat
Units: Madame HYDRA (140) vs. Nightcrawler (140)
Nightcrawler's Teleport Evade rolls were hitting and he won with 0 wounds on Turn 3 of Round 1, even after Madame HYDRA hit 2 skulls on her first Venomous Strikes roll. Those D20 defense powers laugh off Venomous Strikes when they're hitting. Nightcrawler had much better mobility here and also rolled pretty well for his barrage of attacks. If this keeps up, I'm going to start thinking 130 might be a better cost. But she's really not at full strength until she's with the HYDRA agents.

TEST 4
Map: Martian Warzone: The Heat
Units: Madame HYDRA (140) vs. Catwoman (145)
Catwoman wins on Turn 2 of Round 3 with only 2 wounds. The battle of the femme fatales was an uphill one for Madame HYDRA. Without her squad she didn't have the staying power to compete with Stray and Catwoman's Whip.


TEST 5
Map: Martian Warzone: The Heat
Units: Madame HYDRA (140) vs. Iceman (150)
Madame HYDRA managed to put two wounds on Iceman with a 2 skull roll for Venomous Strikes, taking 3 wounds in return from Iceman's normal attack and special attack. His better mobility let him claim height safe from lava, though, and lava field damage finished off Madame HYDRA at the end of round 1! Iceman won with 2 life left.
Right now I certainly wouldn't put her above 130, but her HYDRA agent synergies may very well change that.


_____________________________________________________________

- Squad / Does it pass?
Map: Martian Warzone: The Heat
Units: Madame HYDRA (140) vs. Beat Cops x 2 (130)
Madame HYDRA loses on Turn 1 of Round 2 with 5 of 6 cops still remaining! She just couldn't get on a roll in this game. Had she hit 2 skulls on her first Venomous Strikes roll, she might've taken out a couple of Cops and somewhat evened the odds. It didn't happen, though, and the Cops rolled well and took her out with superior numbers. Given the screen of her HYDRA Agents, I think she could shine against squads. But it didn't happen here!
_____________________________________________________________


- Army Test/ Does it pass?
Map: Martian Warzone: The Heat
Units: Madame HYDRA (140), HYDRA Agents x3 (240), Red Skull (190), Jonah Hex (130) (700) vs. Cops x2 (130), Daredevil (180), Punisher (180), Venom (150), Alfred (60) (700)
This one felt balanced, but I'm not sure Madame HYDRA is kicking the butt we want her to (more on this later). 2 HYDRA Agents and a full life Red Skull survive for the win on Turn 3 of Round 6 after Red Skull dust-of-deaths a full life Venom to end things. Madame HYDRA put two wounds on Punisher (including the final one, though it was at the end of the round, so it didn't help anyone). So, she did OK, but her powers never really kicked in. She killed a couple of HYDRA agents to avoid death with Necessary Sacrifices, but I'm not sure if her offense really paid off. She only rolled 2 skulls once for Venomous Strikes and she never got multiple attacks with it. She also never got Lead By Example to work at all. I have two possible suggestions I'd like to try which I'm going to put in my next post!
_____________________________________________________________

- Army Test/ Does it pass?
Map: Martian Warzone: The Heat
Units: Madame HYDRA (130), HYDRA Agents x5 (400), Thanos (360) (890) vs. SHIELD Spotter x4 (100), SHIELD Sniper x4 (160), Thor (430), Batman (200) (890)
Team HYDRA won turn 3 of round 7 with a full life Red Skull and a 3 life Thanos still aboard. This test makes me want to set Madame HYDRA at 140 points. Changing from Unique Hero actually got Lead By Example to work once as Madame HYDRA snuck ahead and killed a SHIELD Sniper and let her buddies unload on Batman with 3 die attacks the next turn (with their Evasive Strike beating range, they put the first three wounds on him on this turn). With Batman's Evasive Strike out of the picture and the SHIELD guys having a few Order Marker issues, it was Thor doing most of the damage. He focused on the HYDRA guys instead of Thanos, using God of Thunder Strike and his Hammer to blast them to bits in the startzone. Thor killed four full squads of HYDRA Agents before being taken out. He never targeted Madame HYDRA with his hammer despite really wanting to kill her because he knew she would've just made necessary sacrifices anyway. Madame HYDRA never got on a streak with Venomous Strikes, but she did roll 2 skulls against Thor with it on two separate occasions, resulting in 4 of the 8 wounds on him! Between this and her boost to the HYDRA Agents for that one turn, she was the MVP here and really pulled her weight. I'm happy with the small change and think she's ready to move to ERB at 140 points!

[Hahma]

Oh goodness gracious I'm all giddy now, she's finally coming to life. :woot::woot:

Thanks Bats. :D

[IAmBatman]

You're welcome! I hate that you had to wait so long! I'm tacking the heavy hitters tonight! One down, four to go, and I'll post the updates once they're all in! :-)

[Hahma]

You're welcome! I hate that you had to wait so long! I'm tacking the heavy hitters tonight! One down, four to go, and I'll post the updates once they're all in! :-)

Thanks again, I'm excited to see her moved along after so long. :D

[IAmBatman]

Heavy Hitter tests done! I may or may not do the squad test still tonight ... I'm wanting to get her done before I leave town on Friday, but Wednesday and Thursday should give me the time. :-) Now that my wife is back at school I have less time to spend with her ... which means more time for playtesting!

[IAmBatman]

Squad test added! On her own, I definitely wouldn't put her over 130 points, but I think adding her to the HYDRA agents is the important test. I hope to get at least one of those tests in tomorrow. :-)

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I am wondering if you shouldn't bump her cost down to 130 for the Army tests. If her team dominated both tests then we would know she was between 130 and 140. If they didn't win either we might see she should be at most, 130.

[IAmBatman]

I'll try her at 130 for one army test and 140 for the other.

[Hahma]

Thanks Bats, I updated the first post with the test sheet.

Hopefully she shines in Army tests. She was originally supposed to be a little badass, but after the revision, she's looking kind of blah, but then again, this is another reason why I'm going with Madame Hydra instead of Viper, because Viper would kick those HH's ass. :D

[IAmBatman]

First Army Test in! She felt balanced in an army of HYDRA Agents at 140 and did some damage, putting 2 wounds on Punisher and taking out two Beat Cops, but I wasn't that impressed with her overall (I only rolled 2 skulls a single time for her Venomous Strikes).
Necessary Sacrifice was nice for keeping her around, though the HYDRA Agents might've outshone her offensively, so I'm not sure if I necessarily should've killed them off to spare her!
My biggest concern, though, was that Lead By Example never kicked in. I think the answer here might be to change it so it works anytime she destroys a figure, period. I'm going to test it that way in Army Test 2 to see how it goes.
I think if she can inspire her guys when she kills a squaddy, that power will see a bit more use.

[Hahma]

First Army Test in! She felt balanced in an army of HYDRA Agents at 140 and did some damage, putting 2 wounds on Punisher and taking out two Beat Cops, but I wasn't that impressed with her overall (I only rolled 2 skulls a single time for her Venomous Strikes).
Necessary Sacrifice was nice for keeping her around, though the HYDRA Agents might've outshone her offensively, so I'm not sure if I necessarily should've killed them off to spare her!
My biggest concern, though, was that Lead By Example never kicked in. I think the answer here might be to change it so it works anytime she destroys a figure, period. I'm going to test it that way in Army Test 2 to see how it goes.
I think if she can inspire her guys when she kills a squaddy, that power will see a bit more use.

Cool, that would be a lot better since she isn't all that powerful and going to kill a lot of Unique Heroes in the Superscape world. When it was originally written, I believe all squads would have benefited but then Aldin thought it and Necessary were broken. I had tested her with the original version and knew that it wasn't but what do I know. :roll: Anyway, if it works out better the way you plan on doing it, then I'd be for it for sure. Thanks for putting the time in to make her worth drafting, as after the changes made after the ERB response, I was really concerned that she'd not be that draftable or fun and that would really **** me off.

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, I think you're pretty much always going to want to play her with the HYDRA Agents anyway, which is fine by me, so Necessary Sacrifices and Venomous Strikes both have value (even if the latter is difficult to pull off sometimes - I almost suggested lowering the dice to 1 to make it hit more often, but I figure that fits better on someone like Wasp who's a small, annoyance type, and wouldn't really fit someone as deadly as Madame HYDRA - though I did still get it to work a few times.). It's the Lead By Example power that's a problem right now (partially because the way the Ruthless Mastermind bonding works, she takes her turn after the HYDRA Agents, meaning they can only get two turns worth of boost at max), but also because it's just too hard for her to kill heroes often enough for it to happen.
Still, I think I should be able to finagle it at some point for the HYDRA Agents to wear down a hero on OM1 and her to finish that Hero off, then boost them for the rest of the round.
I'm gong to try my last army test before the night is out with this change!

[Hahma]

Cool, thanks. Yeah, if the Hydra Agents can wear down a hero with OM1 then it would be easier for her to put the finishing touches on it. But with killing squaddies too, it will help the Hydra Agents. The thing too is that there will have to be a balance for when she kills a Hydra Agent to save her own skin and yet keep enough alive to make use of Lead By Example. Kind of like when to use a Battery Marker and when to roll defense for GLs, in a way. And Griff had suggested a while ago about lowering the Venomous Strikes to 1 die, but to me thematically, if she's throwing a poisonous dart or using poison fangs or lipstick, it should either be pretty deadly or a miss as it's not like a poison tipped sword where you're still going to get the damage from a big blade.

[IAmBatman]

LEAD BY EXAMPLE
If Madame Hydra destroys 1 or more of your opponent's figures in a round you may add 1 to the attack of any Terrorist figure you control for the remainder of that round.

That's the change I made in the final playtest and I liked it a lot. I'd say she's solid at 140 right now, and maybe even worth slightly more. I think she's ready for the ERB phase and I'd keep her at 140 for playtesting! :-)
Oh, and the last army test is now posted.

[Hahma]

Awesome! I updated the first page with your suggested change and enjoyed reading the playtest sheet. Looks like she did really well in the second game. I think Venomous Strikes will have a nice effect over the course of time and it bypasses certain defense that will be cool. She looks good at 140. Thanks again Bats. :up:

I propose Madame Hydra move to ERB Phase

Sir G. says YEA :D

[IAmBatman]

GreyOwl and I both say Yea too. :-D

[A3n]

I too, say Yea

[Hahma]

That's 5 YEAs so far and 4 to go. :D

[Spidey'tilIDie]

After reading Bats playtests and looking over the changes, I say Yea.

[Hahma]

Thanks Spidey, that makes 6 Yeas with 3 to go, just need Griff, Whitestuff and Necro.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Funny thing is, while you were posting in the Kyle RaynEr Thread, I was over here reading the playtest and voting. :lol:

[IAmBatman]

lol @ Kyle RaynEr.

[whitestuff]

Looks good. Yea

[Hahma]

Funny thing is, while you were posting in the Kyle RaynEr Thread, I was over here reading the playtest and voting. :lol:

That's because I worked my Telepathic powers on you to get you over here. I was thinking it before I posted it in the Kyle RaynEr thread, thus you came over here. ;)


7 Yeas

[IAmBatman]

You got both of mine, right? :-P

[Griffin]

Yea

[Hahma]

You got both of mine, right? :-P

Yep. :D

After Griff recent vote, we just need Necro's vote.

[NecroBlade]

Yea

[IAmBatman]

Cool - she passes to the ERB! :-)

[Hahma]

PM's sent to Matt Helm and The B.I.V. for their ERB viewing pleasure. :D

[Hahma]

First ERB response is from The B.I.V.

Cool fig!

LEAD BY EXAMPLE
If Madame Hydra destroys 1 or more of your opponent's opposing figures in a round you may add 1 to the attack of any Terrorist figure you control for the remainder of that round.

NECESSARY SACRIFICES - Anytime Madame Hydra rolls defense dice against an attack (you don't really roll defense dice under any other conditions that I'm aware of)and would receive 1 or more wounds (it doesn't really matter with my proposed wording>>), you may choose 1 Terrorist or Criminal figure you control adjacent to Madame Hydra. Instead of giving any wounds to Madame Hydra, you may give the chosen figure receives all wounds Madame Hydra would have received from that attack.

GL, bro!

Brandon

[IAmBatman]

I thought "an opponent's" and "enemy" were the only adjectives used for figures controlled by another player in the official game. So I'd go with "an opponent's" instead of "opposing." Otherwise, though, those changes look spot on to me.

[Hahma]

LEAD BY EXAMPLE
If Madame Hydra destroys 1 or more of an opponent's figures, you may add 1 to the attack of any Terrorist figure you control for the remainder of that round.

NECESSARY SACRIFICES
Anytime Madame Hydra rolls defense dice, you may choose 1 Terrorist or Criminal figure you control adjacent to Madame Hydra. Instead of giving any wounds to Madame Hydra, the chosen figure receives all wounds Madame Hydra would have received from that attack.How's that?

[IAmBatman]

Looks good. I think you're missing a space after the comma in the first power though. :-)

[Hahma]

Fixed. Thanks Professor. :D

[IAmBatman]

:takes a bow:

[Hahma]

It's been over 48 hours since sending pms to BIV and Matt Helm. We've heard from BIV and no MN so since time has expired.

I propose we move Madame Hydra to playtesting phase.

[SirGalahad]

Do we "give wounds" or "place Wound Markers"?

[IAmBatman]

yea x 2

[IAmBatman]

How about ...


NECESSARY SACRIFICES
Anytime Madame HYDRA rolls defense dice against an attack and would receive 1 or more wounds, you may choose 1 Terrorist or Criminal figure you control adjacent to Madame Hydra. The chosen figure receives any wounds from the attack instead of Madame HYDRA.

Or, without formatting:

NECESSARY SACRIFICES
Anytime Madame HYDRA rolls defense dice against an attack and would receive 1 or more wounds, you may choose 1 Terrorist or Criminal figure you control adjacent to Madame Hydra. The chosen figure receives any wounds from the attack instead of Madame HYDRA.

[SirGalahad]

I feel much better now.

yea

[Griffin]

yea

[A3n]

Yea

[Hahma]

6 Yeas so far, just Whitestuff and Spidey/Necro away from getting her to playtest phase .


I updated the first post with the change to Necessary Sacrifices. Thanks Bats and Sir G. :thumbsup:

[IAmBatman]

Good stuff! :-)

[whitestuff]

Yea

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Double Yea. And with that she passes!

[Hahma]

Test sheet from Hidicul


C3G PLAY TEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT MADAM HYDRA

- THEME TEST/ Check to see if there are any powers or stats on the test unit card that does not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character would and could do. Also consider destructible objects, and whether or not this characters powers should affect them.
PASS

- MIRROR TEST/ Check to see if the unit were played against itself, if there would be any loops that would upset the balance of the Game.
PASS

- BONDING TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing Bonding abilities to make sure there are no continual Bonding possibilities that do not stop appropriately or do not stop at all. This is to prevent loops in Bonding.
PASS

- SYNERGIES TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing synergies to make sure there are no factors that could break the game by making any unit to powerful or too weak.
PASS

- POWER CHECK/ Consider the test unit and all existing units and all glyphs to compare to and check for any powers that could be over amplified and break the game. Each power must define when it takes place, who or what it affects, and What are the stipulations on the power if there are any.
PASS

- FUN TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play.
PASS

- FUN COMPETITIVE TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play against.
PASS

- DRAFTING TEST/ Consider whether or not this design is worth drafting.
PASS

- USAGE TEST/ Consider whether or not all of the powers on this card were used or at least usable.
PASS

- STRATEGY TEST/ Consider whether or not the design offers any real strategy or interesting tactics to the overall game.
PASS
Test Sheet from Hidicul




- Heavy Hitter or Mid-Level Hero/ Does it pass?

Spoiler Alert!


TEST 1
Map:TURRET ROCKS
Units: GREEN ARROW
Madam HYDRA wins round 3 turn 1 with 2 wounds. She won all 3 initative rolls and hieght advantage for all of the attacks.
TEST 2
Map: TURRET ROCKS
Units:Iceman
Iceman wins round 3 turn 1 with 2 wounds, which came from a 2 skull Venomous Strike attack. Madam HYDRA had 2 wounds when she rolled 2 shields against Iceman's 5 skull Deep Freeze attack.
TEST 3
Map: TURRET ROCKS
Units: Nightcrawler
Madam HYDRA wins round 4 turn 2 with 2 wounds.
TEST 4
Map: TURRET ROCKS
Units: Harley Quinn
Madam HYDRA wins round 3 turn 3. She managed to block the damage from the Smilex Bomb, and won with a 3 skull attack on a wounded Harley who managed only 1 shield in defense.
TEST 5
Map: TURRET ROCKS
Units: Jonah Hex
Madam Hydra wins round 2 turn 1 with 1 wound. The final attack was 4 skulls vs wiff and already with 1 wound on him.







--------------------------------------------
- Squad / Does it pass?
Map: TURRET ROCKS
Units: 2x Marro Stingers

Spoiler Alert!

Madam HYDRA wins round 5 turn 2 with 3 wounds. The Stingers hit thier Drain rolls every time it was rolled for and the 3 wounds were from a single attack that Madam HYDRA only rolled 1 shield against. Madam HYDRA had hieght advantage and was consistently rolling 3 and 4 skull attacks where as the Stingers rearly got more then 2 skulls out of thier 4 dice.







_____________________________________________________________


- Army Test/ Does it pass?
Map: TURRET ROCKS
Units: Batman, Robin, Huntress, Alfred Pennyworth and 1 squad of 5th Precent Beat Cops (765) vs Madam HYDRA, Two-Face, 3x HYDRA Agents, and 3x Street Thugs with 2 Street Thugs set.

Spoiler Alert!

Batman and Robin start the battle by heading for high ground, while Madam HYDRA and a squad of her Agents start heading around the hieght making for the start zone. Huntress advances and Robin Batlines up to the hieght. Madam HYDRA and her Agents advance together and all attack huntress who laughingly blocks all the attacks. Batman Batlines up and Robin takes aim on one of the HYDRA Agents below taking him out with 2 wounds. Meanwhile Two-Face and a squad of Thugs start making for the high ground to try and nuetralize Batman and Robin. The 3 Agents by Madam HYDRA take cover from Huntress behind the ruin as they continue thier trip to her start zone, and a 4th Agent moves adjacent to Two-Face to help out with the Dynamic Duo's hieght threat. Madam HYDRA attacks huntress agian, this time dealing 2 wounds. Huntress uses both her crossbow shots to land a total of 3 wounds on Madam HYDRA, and Robin uses his Batline to get across the river and attack Two-Face who blocks. Thanks to the Thugs, Two-Face moves a little closer to the hieght, but has to stop on the water in his path. 3 of the Thugs advance to help out Madam HYDRA and the other one moves within range of Robin. Huntress manages to block one attack, but 2 wiffs later she takes 3 wounds taking her out. Robin blocks the 4th Thugs attack. The Thugs activate Two-Face agian who gets within of Robin finally but loses his Flip the Coin with a roll of 2. The 3 Thugs move back to help with Robin and out of the four attacks he takes 1 wound, lucky birdie. Batman engages Two-Face and deals 3 wounds while Robin's attack on him is blocked. Green Arrow advances twords Madam HYDRA but rolls a 1 taking away his attack. The Agents advance to help out Madam HYDRA with 2 adjacent, one of which has hieght, and the last stays to help Two-Face. All four attacks are blocked, and Madam HYDRA engages Green Arrow from hieght and lands 1 wound. Batman and Robin team up to take out Two-Face, a bunch of Thugs and a few Agents. Before Alfred can save Batman, he gets taken out by Madam HYDRA and the 3 Agents with her. The only really intresting thing that happened after Huntress fell was some nice strategy on the Vigilantes part. When Madam HYDRA and her Agents were within range of Alfred and the 5th, she used her Venomous Strike on a 5th, and instead of just letting it go, another 5th used Protect and Serve to negate both another activation of Venomous Strike and Lead by Example. Also the one time that Lead by Example was activated (on Alfreds demise) is when Batman was taken out the next turn with the added die. At the end of the battle, Madam HYDRA had 3 wounds and there were 8 HYDRA Agents left and 2 Street Thugs left. The battle lasted until turn 2 of round 6.







_____________________________________________________________


- Army Test/ Does it pass?
Map: TURRET ROCKS
Units: Madam HYDRA and 6x HYDRA Agents with 1 set (620) vs Batman and Superman (600)

Spoiler Alert!

There really isn't mush to type up for this one. Superman landed 3 wounds on Madam HYDRA, which she took one at time, and decided to save the Agents for stronger attacks. Superman did get some pretty nice rolls in, but there was always at least one Agent by Madam HYDRA to take the damage instead. At one point an Agent with hieght landed 1 wound on Superman when he rolled 1 shield and 6 skulls. There were a couple of times that I was glad he didn't have counter strike. Batman stayed low taking out a lot of Agents either with attacks or his Evasive Strike. The real big thing from this battle is that except for the one wound he took from the Agent on hieght, Superman was destroyed by Venomous Strike, which is also how Batman was taken down later. In all total Madam HYDRA rolled 2 skulls for Venomous Strike 4 times, 3 of which were on Superman. Madam HYDRA had 3 wounds and there were 15 HYDRA Agents out of 23 left. The battle lasted until round 3 turn 3 with Batman and Superman winning the initative roll.








In all honesty, I didn't expect the HYDRA's to win either of these battles. From my experince in useing both of these armys, I know that they are very hard to beat, and sometimes the team of Superman and Batman can seem impossable to beat. Until the end of the first army test, I didn't appreciate how powerful Venomous Strike can be. That coupled with keeping a good amount of HYDRA Agents adjacent or close to Madam HYDRA is a very nasty combo. I honestly think that a max of 3 HYDRA Agents or Street Thugs is all you need with her. I found out that having to many squads of them is a waste of points that you could use to put some heavy hitters into your army and get better use out of them. She was very fun to play though and I can't wait for her and the Agents to be released, as I can see myself using them in alot of army builds. Also I think 140 is the right cost for her. Her Venomous Strike can be very nasty to deal with, but if you can take out all the Agents around her, say with some form of dual attack or explosion attack, she can have a glass jaw. I don't think I would pay more then 150 for her, so I could see her going up 10 points for her Venomous Strike Special, which I love, when it works man does it work.

[IAmBatman]

Hmm ... I'd say dice probably had something to do with it, but she looked closer to 140 from my results, and I'd say closer to 150 from Hidicul's. The third playtest should be a good tie breaker.

[Hahma]

Just got this from MH. Nothing really to worry about here, especially since she's in playtesting phase already. :D


I know I'm late and I apologize. Real life doesn't allow me the opportunity to meet deadlines.

I like the way she looks and appreciate the design notes as it hels me understand where you are coming from.

Minor comments:

1) LEAD BY EXAMPLE
If Madame Hydra destroys 1 or more of an opponent's figures in a round you may add 1 to the attack of any Terrorist figure you control for the remainder of that round.

("an" sounds better than "your" but it also questions whether I can add 2 if she kills a figure from two different opponents in a multi-player game. Are you opposed to the alternate "1 or more enemy figures"?)

(also, is the word "figure" necessary in the sentence? Maybe it is but right now I think it might work fine without it. And I'm assuming that an activated squad can use the bonus for each of its members.)

2) VENOMOUS STRIKES SPECIAL ATTACK seems very nasty. 25% of the time she is inflicting exactly 2 wounds. I guess it's balanced by the very short range. This means she would be in real danger herself if she wanted to move in to use her deadliest power. Unless of course she could move in with a squad of adjacent Terrorists. Anyway, I know there are plenty 10% or 15% instant death powers out there so please don't think that I'm suggesting it needs any change... I kind of like it that way and I'm just trying to be sure that the percentages and potential damages were intentional.

- The ever-late-ERB-Helm

[Griffin]

I will be running this last playtest tonight.

[IAmBatman]

Hey, Hambone, when you get a chance, could you link Hidicul's test to the first post? :-)

[Hahma]

I will be running this last playtest tonight.

Awesome, thanks Griff. :thumbsup:

Hey, Hambone, when you get a chance, could you link Hidicul's test to the first post? :-)

Opps, I forgot that. I guess I've gotten used to being LD on units where I can't update first page. :D

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, trying really hard not to let you get used to that. :-P For purely selfish reasons, lol.

[Hahma]

Flame Gryphon sent what he had done.



C3G PLAY TEST FEEDBACK FORM
NAME OF THE TEST UNIT Madame HYDRA
- THEME TEST/ Check to see if there are any powers or stats on the test unit card that does not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character would and could do. Also consider destructible objects, and whether or not this characters powers should affect them.
PASS
- MIRROR TEST/ Check to see if the unit were played against itself, if there would be any loops that would upset the balance of the Game.
PASS
- BONDING TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing Bonding abilities to make sure there are no continual Bonding possibilities that do not stop appropriately or do not stop at all. This is to prevent loops in Bonding.
PASS
- SYNERGIES TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing synergies to make sure there are no factors that could break the game by making any unit to powerful or too weak.
PASS
- POWER CHECK/ Consider the test unit and all existing units and all glyphs to compare to and check for any powers that could be over amplified and break the game. Each power must define when it takes place, who or what it affects, and What are the stipulations on the power if there are any.
PASS
- FUN TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play.
PASS
- FUN COMPETITIVE TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play against.
PASS
- DRAFTING TEST/ Consider whether or not this design is worth drafting.
PASS
- USAGE TEST/ Consider whether or not all of the powers on this card were used or at least usable.
PASS
- STRATEGY TEST/ Consider whether or not the design offers any real strategy or interesting tactics to the overall game.
PASS
- Heavy Hitter or Mid-Level Hero/ Does it pass?
Spoiler Alert!

TEST 1
Map: Marr Highway
Units: Madame HYDRA vs. Sudema
Sudema wins with 0/4 wounds, and a lucky roll of 19.
TEST 2
Map: Marr Highway
Units:Madame HYDRA vs. Nightcrawler
Nightcrawler wins with 1/4 wounds.
TEST 3
Map: Marr Highway
Units: Madame HYDRA vs. Major Q10
Madame HYDRA wins with 0/4 wounds.
TEST 4
Map: Marr Highway
Units: Madame HYDRA vs. Sonlen
Sonlen wins with 0/6 wounds.
TEST 5
Map: Marr Highway
Units: Madame HYDRA vs. Greater Ice Elemental
GIE wins with 2/4 wounds.




_____________________________________________________________
- Squad / Does it pass? YES
Map: Marr Highway
Units: Madame HYDRA vs. Einar Imperium
Spoiler Alert!
Madame HYDRA wins with 3/4 wounds.




_____________________________________________________________
- Army Test/ Does it pass? YES
Map: Marr Highway
Units: Madame HYDRA, Red Skull, 2X Street Thugs, and 2X HYDRA Agents (640) VS. Charos, Captain America, and 3X 4th Mass. Line
Spoiler Alert!
Round 1
- 4 HYDRA Agents move up
- 4 Linemen move up.
- Red Skull has Madame HYDRA move up.
- Captain America moves up.
- 4 Street Thugs move up.
- Charos moves up.
Round 2
- 4 Linemen move up.
- 4 HYDRA Agents move up.
- 4 more Linemen move up.
- Red Skull moves up.
- Captain America moves up.
- 4 Street Thugs move up.
Round 3
- Madame HYDRA moves up and attacks Captain America, but misses.
- 4 Linemen move up, and 2 attack Madame HYDRA for 0 wounds.
- The HYDRA Agents ask Madame HYDRA to attack and destroy a Lineman.
- 4 Linemen attack Madame HYDRA for 1 wound.
- 4 Street Thugs move up.
- Captain America attacks Madame HYDRA for 1 Wound.
Round 4
- Madame HYDRA misses her Venemous Strike at Cap.
- Charos moves up.
- Red Skull moves up.
- 4 Linemen attack Madame HYDRA for 1 Wound.
- 4 Street Thugs move up and attack Charos, but all miss.
- Cap uses Shield Throw, and takes out a Street Thug and Madame HYDRA.
Round 5
- 4 Street Thugs move up, and 3 attack Charos for 1 Wound.
- Charos moves up and takes out a Street Thug.
- Red Skull moves up and attacks Charos with 1 Wound.
- 4 Linemen attack the Street Thugs, and efeat one.
- 4 HYDRA Agents move up, and defeat one Lineman before asking Red Skull to take another turn.
- Red Skull attacks Charos with 1 Wound.
-Cap defeats one Street Thug, and the first HYDRA Agent.
Round 6
- 4 HYDRA Agents miss Charos as Red Skull also misses Charos.
- Charos attacks Red Skull for 1 Wound.
- HYDRA Agents attack Charos for 1 Wound. Red Skull attacks Charos for another wound.
- 1 Lineman moves up as 3 others attack Red Skull for 1 Wound.
- Hydra Agents attack, but miss, the Linemen as Red Skull hits Charos with 1 Wound.
- Cap hits Skull with 2 Wounds.
Round 7
- Four HYDRA Agents attack Charos with 1 Wound, before Red Skull misses his attack.
- Charos defeats Red Skull.
- Four HYDRA Agents attack, but miss.
- Captain America defeats two HYDRAs with his Shield Throw.
- 2 HYDRA Agents move up, then four attack Charos for 1 Wound.
- Four Linemen attack, defeating two HYDRA Agents and one Street Thug.
Round 8
- 3 HYDRA Agents attack Charos, but all miss.
- Charos moves up and defeats 1 HYDRA.
- 1 HYDRA Agent defeats Charos while another one misses a Lineman.
- Captain America moves up and uses Shield Throw to defeat the final HYDRA Agents, and 1 Street Thug.
- HYDRA Agents cannot do anything.
- 4 Linemen move up, while 1 attacks a Street Thug but misses.
Round 9
- Captain America takes out the two remaining Street Thugs.
Remaining Forces
Cap: 0/5 Wounds.
Linemen: 10/12 Remaining

[IAmBatman]

From the sounds of it from Griff, he thought 140 was spot on. I think there's enough there from Flame Gryphon to balance out Hidicul's great success, so I'm most comfortable with 140 currently.

[IAmBatman]

If Griff is ever online again, we can move this lady into final editing ...

[Hahma]

If Griff is ever online again, we can move this lady into final editing ...


Yeah, we'll have to see what he says.

Either Flame Gryphon didn't get detailed enough of he played wrong in the army test as he'd activate the Hydra Agents and not bond with Madame Hydra. Seems like some missed opportunities.

Oh well, with Griff's results we should be able to figure it out.

[Griffin]

Sorry for the delay.

C3G PLAY TEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT Madame Hydra

- THEME TEST/ Check to see if there are any powers or stats on the test unit card that does not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character would and could do. Also consider destructible objects, and whether or not this characters powers should affect them.
PASS

- MIRROR TEST/ Check to see if the unit were played against itself, if there would be any loops that would upset the balance of the Game.
PASS

- BONDING TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing Bonding abilities to make sure there are no continual Bonding possibilities that do not stop appropriately or do not stop at all. This is to prevent loops in Bonding.
PASS

- SYNERGIES TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing synergies to make sure there are no factors that could break the game by making any unit to powerful or too weak.
PASS

- POWER CHECK/ Consider the test unit and all existing units and all glyphs to compare to and check for any powers that could be over amplified and break the game. Each power must define when it takes place, who or what it affects, and What are the stipulations on the power if there are any.
PASS

- FUN TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play.
PASS

- FUN COMPETITIVE TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play against.
PASS

- DRAFTING TEST/ Consider whether or not this design is worth drafting.
PASS

- USAGE TEST/ Consider whether or not all of the powers on this card were used or at least usable.
PASS

- STRATEGY TEST/ Consider whether or not the design offers any real strategy or interesting tactics to the overall game.
PASS

- Heavy Hitter or Mid-Level Hero/ Does it pass? YES, but so far, she is worth like 120 points IMO.

TEST 1
Map: Grundy's Grave
Units: - Madame Hydra VS Jonah Hex
Jonah Hex wins with 4 wounds.

TEST 2
Map: Grundy's Grave
Units:- Madame Hydra VS Catwoman
Catwoman wins with 6 wounds.

TEST 3
Map: Grundy's Grave
Units: - Madame Hydra VS Nightcrawler
Nightcrawler wins with 3 wounds.

TEST 4
Map: Grundy's Grave
Units: - Madame Hydra VS Harley Quinn
Harley Quinn wins with 2 wounds.

TEST 5
Map: Grundy's Grave
Units: - Madame Hydra VS Two-Face
Two-Face wins with 3 wounds.

_____________________________________________________________


- Squad / Does it pass? YES, but she really felt like she was worth 110 points in this test
Map: Grundy's Grave
Units: - Madame Hydra VS Hydra Agents x1 +2
Hydra Agents win with 3 men left.
_____________________________________________________________


- Army Test/ Does it pass? YES, I really felt like she was worth 140 points in this test
Map: Grundy's Grave
Units: - Madame Hydra, Red Skull, Hydra Agents x3, and Civilians x1 VS Green Lantern (Hal) and Flash
- Civilians move up some.
- Flash goes right after Madame Hydra and hits her for 1 wound, and then pulls back to the roada and 2 Civilians panic. (Madame H could have let an Agent take the hit, but since it was only one wound, she just took it)
- Hydra Agents surround the board and Flash and manage to get him to whiff and put two wounds on him!! Madame H moves up and fails her attack and Flash runs away.
- Flash hits Madame H with his SA and on his third attack of 3, he rolls 3 skulls and would have killed her, but she let an Agent die for her, then on his 4th attack of 3, he rolled 3 skulls again and landed 2 on her.
- Hydra Agents try to kill Flash but can't scratch him. Then Madame Hydra tries and also fails.
- GL advances but fails to to hit Madame Hydra with his two skull attack, which she actually blocked. 2 Civilians move towards Hal.

- Flash would have killed Madame H twice with his SA, but she let 2 adjacent Agents die instead.
- 2 Civilians engage Hal and attack but fail.
- Hal kills a Civilian, and two lagging civilians move towards him.
- 4 Hydra Agents fail against Flash, but Madame H manages to sneak one wound in.
- Hal kills a Civilian, and the last 2 move forward.
- Hydra Agents surround Madame H to protect her, and they all fail their attack on Flash, then Madame H hits her Venomous Strike SA and kills Flash.

- Hal attacks a Civilian and only rolls a single skull..... and the Civilian blocks it!!! :lol: Then the other Civilian panics and also engages Hal.
- The Hydra Agents move up and create a semi circle and attack Hal and they all fail. Then Madame H hides herself in that semi Circle and attacks with her Venomous Strike, but she also fails.
- Hal kills a single Agent. (still no frenzy)
- Hydra Agents hit Hal for one wound, then Madame H hits him for two!!!
- Hal frenzies and kills two Agents.
- Agents and Madame H all fail their attacks on Hal.

- Agents and Madame H fail their attacks.
- Hal kills a Civilian.
- Agents and Madame H fail their attacks.
- Hal kills the last civilian, but does not frenzy.
- Agents and Madame H fail again.
- Hal kills two Agents and reclaims height.

- Agents and Madame H fail again.
- Hal kills an Agent.
- Agents and Madame fail again.
- Hal kills another Agent.
- Madame and Agents fail again.
- Hal kills Madame H and an Agent.

- An Agent engages Hal on same height and rolls 2 skulls, so Hal burns a power Battery, the Red Skull advances.
- Hal kills the last Agent.
- Red Skull moves up on height.
- Hal engages from height disadvantage in hopes of frenying and ending this here and now, but he only gets one wound on Red Skull.
- Red Skull rolls a freaking 20 for Dust of Death!!!!!!

Red Skull wins with 1 wound.
_____________________________________________________________


- Army Test/ Does it pass? YES, 140 feels spot on.
Map: Grundy's Grave
Units: - Madame Hydra, Red Skull, and Hydra Agents x3 VS Dare Devil, Pyro, Toad, and Bullseye (I also played with the Temporal Displacement Glyph)
- Hydra Agents and Madame H move up.
- Pyro moves up and with his SA kills 2 Agents, though one of the Agents survived with his Immortal Hydra defense boost power.
- Hydra Agents and Madame H get one wound on Pyro.
- Pyro fails his attack on Madame H, but at least he engaged her.
- Hydra Agents get Pyro down to one away from death, then Madame H safely disengages and attack him from height and fails.
- Pyro engages Madame H and attacks but fails.

- Pyro engulfs Madame H for one wound, then attacks her for one more.
- Hydra Agents kill Pyro, then Madame H puts 3 wounds on Toad.
- Pyro loses a turn.
- Madam Hydra and Agents kill Toad.
- Oh Boy :D, Bullseye grabs the Time displacement Glyph and switches Dare Devil from the start zone with Madame H on the hill surrounded by Hydra Agents. Now that she is all alone, Bullseye attacks her for 2 wounds and kills her! Awesome!!
- Hydra Agents put 2 wounds on Dare Devil with the Lead By Example (even though Madame Hydra was dead, the power still worked), and Red Skull advances.

- Dare Devil kills 3 out of the 4 Agents engaged with him!
- Hyrdra Agents grab the glyph of Super Speed, and then they all miss their attacks on DD. Then Red Skull runs with his move of 7 and shoots at DD and misses due to Radar Sense 12, and then DD vanishes off of the road.
- DD engages Red Skull and an Agent from height and puts 4 wounds on Red Skull and kills the Agent.
- The Hydra Agents put 1 more wound on DD from height advantage then Red Skull kills DD with his normal attack.
- DD loses a turn.
- Hydra Agents move up and one attacks Bullseye and fails. Red Skull runs up and fails his dust of death and his attack.

- Bullseye moves off of the glyph back towards his start zone and fires at Red Skull and easily kills him with a 4 skull attack within 5 clear sight spaces which gives an auto skull, racking up an attack 5 skulls.
- Hydra Agents leave the Super Speed glyph behind and go after the other remaining glyphs, and three of them shoot at Bullseye but fail.
- Bulls eye goes after a glyph and kills an Agent in the process.
- Agents get close to the glyphs, and engage Bullseye from on height and get 4 attacks of 3 which gives him 1 wound.
- Bullseye takes a wound from leaving an engagement with one Agent, then he kills another.
- Hydra Agents move and one lands on the Timebomb glyph and it blows up on a roll of 2, killing the Agent and putting two wounds on Bullseye. And then, just as if things couldn't get any worse for Bullseye, another Agent lands on the Reinforcements glyph, bringing back 3 dead Agents. Bullseye blocks their two attacks.

- Somehow, Bullseye blocked all 4 attacks from the Agents.
- Bullseye retreats and kills an Agent.
- Agents fail their attacks.
- Bullseye kills an Agent.
- Agents kills Bullseye.

Hydra Agents win with 4 men left.

[IAmBatman]

Well, Hidicul liked 140-150, I liked 140, Griff liked 140, and Flame Gryphon seemed to struggle with her a tad (might've preferred 120-130).
140 really seems like the winner there.

[NecroBlade]

I haven't given MH a LOT of attention, but browsing the playtest results and point suggestions and reading the card over, I gotta agree 140 seems pretty good.

[Hahma]

Thanks for the test Griff :D

I propose Madame HYDRA move to final editing phase at 140 points

[A3n]

yea to 140

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I say Yea to 140 as well.

[IAmBatman]

yea.

[Griffin]

Yea

[whitestuff]

Yea

[Hahma]

6 down and Necro and Sir G to go. :D

[Hahma]

Due to Father Time, Madame HYDRA passes to final editing phase.

When the Art Department gets time, could we get some cards please. :D

[IAmBatman]

Sweet. :-)

[A3n]

Mini card (http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac111/Amas73/Private/C3G/C3G_MadameHydra_mini.jpg)
Comic card
(http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac111/Amas73/Private/C3G/C3G_MadameHydra_comic.jpg)
Cheers

[SirGalahad]

LEAD BY EXAMPLEIf Madame HYDRA destroys 1 or more of your opponent's figures in a round, you may add 1 die to the attack of any Terrorist figure you control for the remainder of that round.

VENOMOUS STRIKES SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 2. Attack 2.
When attacking an opponent's small or medium figure with Venomous Strikes Special Attack, if Madame HYDRA rolls a skull on every die, the defending figure cannot roll any defense dice. If Madame HYDRA destroys a figure with Venomous Strikes Special attack, she may attack again with Venomous Strikes Special Attack.

NECESSARY SACRIFICES
Anytime Madame HYDRA rolls defense dice against an attack and would receive 1 or more wounds, you may choose 1 Terrorist or Criminal figure you control adjacent to Madame Hydra. The chosen figure receives any wounds from the attack instead of Madame HYDRA.

Minor punctuation and clarification so it isn't interpreted that they add one skull.

[A3n]

Cards updated.

Cheers

[Hahma]

Cards look great A3n, as usual. Thanks. :D

Also thanks to Sir G for the editing help. :D

[Hahma]

I propose we move Madame HYDRA to On Deck

[IAmBatman]

Put the cards in the first post and I'll take a look at them and vote. :-P

[Hahma]

Put the cards in the first post and I'll take a look at them and vote. :-P

Hyperlinks to the cards on the first post are the best I can to at the moment from this computer at work :D

[IAmBatman]

Works for me! And the cards look great to my eyes anyway ... :-) yea!

[A3n]

Does anybody think the wordage order in Venomous Strikes SA is a bit misleading?

IMO saying the part about if she rolls all skulls the defender doesn't roll defense, & then saying if she destroys a figure with VSSA then she gets another attack, could be interpreted as she only gets another attack if she destroys a figure after rolling all skulls. :shrug:

Cheers

[IAmBatman]

Does anybody think the wordage order in Venomous Strikes SA is a bit misleading?

IMO saying the part about if she rolls all skulls the defender doesn't roll defense, & then saying if she destroys a figure with VSSA then she gets another attack, could be interpreted as she only gets another attack if she destroys a figure after rolling all skulls. :shrug:

Cheers

I think this is a matter of do what's on the card, not what's not on the card ... Nowhere does it say one can only happen if the other does - and they're in completely separate sentences. Also, things are following turn order right now, so it wouldn't make sense to reverse the order or anything.
Do you have any suggestions for wording you think would be clearer?
Also, side note, but it'll be fairly rare for her to destroy any figures on one skull attacks anyway.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I would like to see the card have her real name: Leona Hiss.

[IAmBatman]

Good call, Spidey! We need her real identity to stay consistent.

[A3n]

Cards updated with identity.

Cheers

[Hahma]

Actually, Ophelia Sarkissian is her real name. Leona Hiss is one of many aliases. I thought I had that on the original post at some point, but maybe I deleted it or something happened along the way.

[A3n]

Cards updated again with real name.

Cheers

[Hahma]

Thanks A3n, :thumbsup:

I see it on the Comic card, but I'm sure the Mini one just needs photobucket to reload.

[Griffin]

Actually, her real name was originally Amanda Hugginkiss. :p

[Griffin]

Yea, to moving forward. She may be the best Mastermind to date, but Riddler is right up there with her. Great job all around.

[IAmBatman]

I really want to yea vote this chick, but you keep throwing me curveballs! :-P Both the pictures in the first post are the mini art ones - no comic art version is up (unless it's just me ...).

[Hahma]

It must be just you Bats, there's a comic art card there. :p

It was just before I went to bed when I put those up there, so I guess I screwed up. But it should be good now.

@Griff, yeah, she seems pretty cool. I'll have to use her and the Agents sometime soon.

[SirGalahad]

In Lead by Example, should it say "add 1 die to the attack of all Terrorist figures you control"; otherwise, it sounds like you only get to pick any one figure?

In Venomous Strikes Special Attack, the second reference to the attack needs a capital "A"

In Necessary Sacrifices, the second reference to the figure needs a capital "YDRA"

[A3n]

Updates made, great work SirG.

& Yea.

Cheers

[SirGalahad]

The mini card still says Leona Hiss

[A3n]

The mini card still says Leona Hiss

Nah, you'll just have to wait for photobucket to recache.

Cheers

[SirGalahad]

Gotcha

[IAmBatman]

Hmmm ... no go on repping Sir G for his special eyes. :-) I'll be taking a look at the new cards in a couple of minutes here!

[IAmBatman]

Hmm ... it's taking a bit to load for me for sure. The right secret identity is on there on the comic card for me, but not the mini card yet, so I'll just keep waiting and refreshing. :-P

[IAmBatman]

The mini card still says Leona Hiss for me ... anyone else having this issue?

[Hahma]

Looks the same to me too and Sir G's suggested changes aren't there either. A3n said he made the updates but photbucket isn't refreshing or something. :shrug:

[A3n]

Yeah the cards in the first post aren't updating for me yet either, but I have checked & only the correct ones exist in photobucket so we will just have to wait until they refresh their cache.

Cheers

[Griffin]

The comic card updated but still a NO on the mini.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

The latest issue of Avengers said her real name was Leona Hiss. Are you sure Sarkissian isn't an alias? They also give the Mandarin's real name. It is in the Transcript (fake) interview of the History of the Avengers.

EDIT: Ok, it looks as if either the Avengers writers goofed or they are doing a slight reboot as some digging turned up Sarkissian is correct.

[Hahma]

The latest issue of Avengers said her real name was Leona Hiss. Are you sure Sarkisian isn't an alias? They also give the Mandarin's real name. It is in the Transcript (fake) interview of the History of the Avengers.


Well I got Ophelia Sarkissian from these sources and Leona Hiss is noted as one of her many aliases.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix4/madame_hydra_viper.htm

http://marvel.wikia.com/Ophelia_Sarkissian_%28Earth-616%29

http://www.rapsheet.co.uk/RapSheetMain/Character.asp?UniqueId=395