Hulk Vs. Krug

[Elginb]

I think we've all been thinking of Krug as being Heroscape's version of the Hulk, but now we're going to have the Hulk for real in Marvelscape. Do you think they're going to design him more or less with the same powers? Or are they going to do something different with him?

I imagine that maybe Hasbro doesn't want to admit (for legal reasons) that Krug is a version of the Hulk, so they might design the Hulk differently. But Wounded Smash is such a clever way to demonstrate his powers-- how could they do it better? Or equally as well?

[AgentX-127]

Krug looks a more like the Abomination than the Hulk, don't you think?

[Elginb]

I think he looks as much like the Hulk as he does the Abomination, in as much as they're all big and green. Otherwise, I think they all have pretty distinct looks about them.

[DrLivingston]

Perhaps he means that Krug's special power works a lot like the Hulk does-the madder he gets the stronger he gets...

[jcb231]

I think an excellent Hulk figure could be made just by thinking, design wise, of Krug as Hulk-lite. Beef him up by about 80-100 points and turn him loose in purple shorts....voila, Hulk.

[Point Blanks]

Power him down a little, give him a Shaolin Leap-esque move, and you're good to go.

[skullsgood]

Power him down?

You're talking about a being who shrugs off artillery shells and juggles tanks for a laugh. The Hulk could swat Krug aside without breaking stride, before giving all the dragons a good hiding, and still be finished before lunch.

Hulk smash!

[jcb231]

I'd have the Hulk be something like this:

Life 7
Move 5 (single-base)
Range 1
Attack 3
Defense 3
Points ???

Special Abilities:
Gamma Leap (instead of moving or attacking, Hulk leaps 8 spaces, ignoring elevations, etc.)
Gamma Rage (add one attack and one defense for each wound)
Ground Smash (Special Attack....4 dice, rolled once, hit all figures adjacent to and on same level as Hulk.)

[Aratak]

Krug is certainly a fun, playable monster and a superb sculpt, at that, but I don't think he'd be in the Hulk's power class. He would be a fantastic part of a legion of monsters trying to take down the green behemoth.

One of my old custom versions of the Hulk:
http://home.comcast.net/~jarnold116/HulkSS.jpg
Later on I powered him down and used a power-up-as-he-gets-madder feature.

I am, needless to say, thrilled to see the Marvel expansion and excited to see the "official" Hulk. I have most of the Heroclix superheroes, but I have never much cared for their game system, which in no way resembles comic book action.

[jcb231]

I think 320 is too high for one figure, unless it's a Galactus-style objective where the player wielding it has virtually nothing else and has some sort of limitations. But that would require some rule alterations.

I think 250-275 is about the maximum a single figure should be.

[skullsgood]

I, too, am interested in the stats for such powerhouses as the Hulk.

Aratak's card makes interesting reading, but still doesn't go far enough. To fully capture the Hulk would require far more abilities per card than any hero to date - probably the reason Hasbro suggests that people don't combine the two games.

One question: if Morsbane successfully negates Hulk's abilities, will he then revert to wimpy Bruce Banner?

[Elginb]

One question: if Morsbane successfully negates Hulk's abilities, will he then revert to wimpy Bruce Banner?

I love that! The Hulk card should come with 2 figures: 1 Banner and 1 Hulk. His stats would start at something like Life = 10, Move=4, Range=1, Attack=1, Defense=1 and the Banner figure would start on the board. As he takes wounds, he'd get more powerful until at, say, 3 wounds, you replace the Banner figure with the Hulk figure!

I know that's not how they're going to do it, but that could be cool...

[jcb231]

I still think that the CORE flavor of the Hulk can be captured in a 200-250 point card.

I think for any Marvel character, one must look at the essential traits and then try to replicate them. Most superhero-types have powers that could easily be represented via stats and two or three powers.

[skullsgood]

Well, in truth, the Hulk is a pretty two dimensional character, but would 200-250 points be enough to reflect the abilities of even a non-super, such as the Punisher?

Plucking examples from existing Scape characters, it would not be unreasonable for Frank to have Tough, Grenade, Deadly Shot and Double Attack to name but four.

I sincerely hope that Marvel Legends reflects the featured super types in a reasonably accurate manner, and if that proves to be the case, then even the most powerful existing Scape characters won't be able to compete with their four-colour counterparts.

[Tiberius]

Keep in mind Skullsgood, that the heroes plucked into Valhalla are supposed to be the best of the best or near superhuman as well. I think he would be on par with any of the agent characters or the cowboys, cost wise and ability wise.

[Point Blanks]

I think that is why Heroscape and Marvelscape can't mix. You have loyal fans who would get mad if "X" guy didn't have "Y" power, and people would get upset over some short people in man-skirts can take out their fabled superhero. When I get my set, I'm not even going to think of mixing them.

[jcb231]

Keep in mind Skullsgood, that the heroes plucked into Valhalla are supposed to be the best of the best or near superhuman as well. I think he would be on par with any of the agent characters or the cowboys, cost wise and ability wise.

Exactly. I think the only "normal" humans in the current line are the lower value squaddies and heroes like Guilty or Johnny Shotgun. Drake, Carr, etc have super-human abilities. Marcus and Spartacus maybe don't have super-human powers (other than some pretty impressive strength on Spart) but they do have awe-inspiring leadership abilities.

I think a Punisher figure will not have anywhere near the number of powers listed above, whether the lines were planned for mixing or not. The Punisher, being a normal human, should in all fairness clock in at less than 100 points. Someone like Captain America or Daredevil, with above-human strengths or minor powers, should shoot for 100-120 I think. True power-houses like the Hulk could be fairly represented in the Jotun league I think. Someone like Iron Man could probably fight Major Q9 head-on.

I think expecting a game, any game, to represent every aspect of a comic character is unfair. Even if Marvelscape is kept truly separate from classic scape, every power is not going to be able to be represented in every aspect from every issue of the comic. Characters need to be boiled down to their core essence....Hulk is strong and gets stronger when he gets mad. Captain America is the ultimate soldier. Spider-Man climbs and uses webs. Cyclops shoots eye beams. Wolverine heals and slashes....sure Wolverine also has crazy fighting skills and tracking senses and on and on, but when you get right down to it, his core "thing" is healing and using the claws...healing is a pretty easy power to represent, and claws, well that's just a stat boost to his attack, basically.

People also forget that many powers can be represented just by adjusting the base stats.....a move value of 8 or 9 could represent super-speed. An attack strength of 8 is insanely strong. A defense of 8 or 9 is pretty bulletproof, especially if coupled with multiple life.

Even in classic scape, one must assume the characters can "in reality" do things other than what is listed on their card. We're just getting a slice of them....the essentials.

It is for this reason that the decision to keep the line separate bothers me....no matter how they do it powers are going to be left out, so why not just work the figures into proper balance? From my questions at Gencon I got the vibe that this attempt was being made, and that the suggestion not to mix the two was mostly cosmetic, but that 100% balance could not be guaranteed.....seemed like it would be playable though. I sure hope so.

[skullsgood]

If, as you state, powers are going to be left out, then what's the point in having superheroes at all?

Once again, many of the aforementioned characters, such as Cyclops, are fairly two-dimensional, but what happens when you want to include Doctor Strange or Magneto? If a game does not capture the diversity and character of the Marvel heroes and villains it portrays, then what purpose does it serve, other than to cynically boost Hasbro's profits?

[jcb231]

The point of having superheroes IS to boost Hasbro's profits.

But, from a gameplay, less cynical view, the point of having super heroes is to do things that are, well, super. And to play with characters we know and love. If you are expecting ANY game version of a Marvel character, in ANY game, to fully represent every aspect of that character, you are in for a world of dissapointment, my friend. It would take pages and pages describing every use of Power X and Combo Y and Weakness Q to represent a character to the utmost.

You HAVE to expect a character to be boiled down in a game like this.

I mean really, if Hulk is strong, gets angry when he's hit, and can maybe (maybe) smash the ground or jump about, what more does he need? Most characters really can be represented by their core traits, the things people who aren't giant comics fans would still know. Ya gotta go for feel and gameplay over exacting simulation.

[Cavalier]

If, as you state, powers are going to be left out, then what's the point in having superheroes at all?

Once again, many of the aforementioned characters, such as Cyclops, are fairly two-dimensional, but what happens when you want to include Doctor Strange or Magneto? If a game does not capture the diversity and character of the Marvel heroes and villains it portrays, then what purpose does it serve, other than to cynically boost Hasbro's profits?
As jcb231 points out, no superhero game can reproduce all of a characters traits/powers/weaknesses.

Think of the (terrible, in my opinion) super hero video/computer games out there. Hulk doesn't jump, he just smashes...and he never reverts to being Bruce Banner. Cyclops blasts, Gambit throws cards, even though in the comics he can charge anything, cards are just his favorite items to use.

Or think about it this way...ever heard of a ninja (as perceived iin our wetern cultural mythology) without shuriken (throwing stars)? No, they always use them, right? Along with blow guns and other ranged weapons, but our Ninjas of the Norhtern Wind are without a ranged attack...does this diminish their ninja-ness inour eyes? Not in mine.

just my 2¢

[jcb231]

Well put Cavalier.

Look at the Grimnak sculpt....he's got a quiver! Yet we don't see this side of Grim's abilities in the game at all.

[skullsgood]

I don't disagree with anything said above. Obviously, a character will have to be distilled down to those trademark abilities that set him apart from his costumed bretheren.

That said, the suggestion that someone like the Hulk will be a 200-250 point character - on par with Spartacus - still doesn't seem likely if point totals remain consistent between the two games.

Be fair: a bloke with a (mundane) sword posing as much threat as a nigh-indestructable powerhouse who can benchpress tanks?

[Point Blanks]

When you play 'Scape, Marvel or otherwise, you need to forget everything you know about the characters. You'll only be disapointed by anything any outside source's interpretation of a character. I would know... the Ninja Turtle's deserve only to be comic characters.

[skullsgood]

Just as a last word from me on this: some of the figures from the Marvel set have been displayed at a convention - were there no cards (with points totals) to accompany them?

[jcb231]

Just as a last word from me on this: some of the figures from the Marvel set have been displayed at a convention - were there no cards (with points totals) to accompany them?

Nope. They were a sneak preview of sorts, just to tease us. No cards.

[jcb231]

I don't disagree with anything said above. Obviously, a character will have to be distilled down to those trademark abilities that set him apart from his costumed bretheren.

That said, the suggestion that someone like the Hulk will be a 200-250 point character - on par with Spartacus - still doesn't seem likely if point totals remain consistent between the two games.

Be fair: a bloke with a (mundane) sword posing as much threat as a nigh-indestructable powerhouse who can benchpress tanks?

Spartacus is in league with Charos and Braxas and all those big guys because of his Inspiration power. Imagine if there were a common squad that he could boost. He'd be super powerful because of how he inspires others. I think that's a realistic way to point cost things. Hulk would have a high point value because like Jotun he is a powerhouse. Spartacus or Doctor Doom or such could have high point values for Leadership or Intellectual abilities.

[angelwickett13]

personaly I think that the hulk will win Krug isint that great :shock:

[jcb231]

I think the Hulk will win too, because I picture the Hulk as costing about 80-100 points more than Krug.

[Elginb]

I think Krug will give the Hulk a run for his money, just because I'm betting they don't give the Hulk double-attack. That doesn't mean he won't be costed higher, but Krug does well toe-to-toe with lots of melee figures who are costed higher.

[Rorschach]

I knows from experience bullets can penetrate Krug, they can't penetrate the hulk.

Hulk wins in a fair fight and then uses Krugs meat cleaver or axe or whatever to finish of whatever else there is on the field.

Hulk would easily be 300 pts. I play tested My dad's powered down Hulk (Aratak posted earlier) and it was a good fight. the way to beat him was lots of small stuff and good range + Grenades.

[TheMightyAargh]

One Hulk ability that I haven't seen mentioned yet is one that comes into play in a few Marvel RPGs. This is, that Hulk is "the strongest there is". That means in a nutshell that however strong his opponent is, he can top it.

I wonder if that means he starts with an attack of 7 or 8, but if your defense is higher than that he gets to match it and add one.

Actually that might be too brutal. But if they did have it, I'd really want to use him, that's for sure!

[Firemaster]

Keep in mind Skullsgood, that the heroes plucked into Valhalla are supposed to be the best of the best or near superhuman as well. I think he would be on par with any of the agent characters or the cowboys, cost wise and ability wise.

Also keep in mind that if you read the character's bios, you'll find out some of their abilities were obtained from the magical items given to them by their Valkyrie general.
i.e. Srg. Drake's Thorian Speed ability comes from the magic Katana Given to him by Jandar.
Thorgrim's Defence Aura is from the magic Shield Given to him.

[Joah]

All I know is, I'm gonna have some zombie v. Marvel fun in the next couple of months. :twisted:

[Nwojedi]

All I know is, I'm gonna have some zombie v. Marvel fun in the next couple of months. :twisted:

arnt you suppose to be working on your school work? :?

[Joah]

All I know is, I'm gonna have some zombie v. Marvel fun in the next couple of months. :twisted:

arnt you suppose to be working on your school work? :?

I'm DONE sucka! :D

[Nwojedi]

well, it's good I didn't come over then, cuz I don't feel like starting a game at 1:30 am