The Book of Penguin

[Griffin]

The Book of Penguin

C3G DC WAVE 3
SHADOW OF THE BAT

http://c3ggames.com/C3G/released/cards/jpg/C3G_Penguin_comic.jpg

Comic PDF (http://c3ggames.com/C3G/released/cards/pdf/C3G_Penguin_comic.pdf)

http://c3ggames.com/C3G/released/cards/jpg/C3G_Penguin_mini.jpg

Mini PDF (http://c3ggames.com/C3G/released/cards/pdf/C3G_Penguin_mini.pdf)

The figure used for this unit is a Heroclix figure from the Batman: Alpha set.
Its model number and name are #007 / Penguin.

The figure used for this unit is a Heroclix figure from the Cosmic Justice set.
Its model number and name are #022-024 / Penguin.
Its model number and name are #208 / Oswald Cobblepot.
_________________________________________________________________

Character Bio - Ruled by his own greed and arrogance, this would-be Gotham socialite has been an outcast all of his life, despite his desperate attempts for approval. Now, consumed with an appetite of vindication towards those who would look down their noses at him, Penguin has turned to a life of crime and eccentric indulgences. By being the owner of his own nightclub, the Iceberg Lounge, it is easy for the Penguin to maintain control of the information that flows through the criminal underground.
_________________________________________________________________



-Rulings and Clarifications-
Q - When I reveal an Order Marker on a card, and all the figures on that card have been destroyed, am I still supposed to roll for Self Importance?
A - No, because the rule book says that you may not "reveal" Order Markers on cards that have all of its figures destroyed. Those Turn Order Markers are "lost".
Q: If I have Riddler and Penguin both in my army, which do I roll for first? Riddle Me This, or Self-Importance 16? Both powers activate after revealing an Order Marker on Riddler.
A: The official ruling on powers that activate simultaneously, is that if you control both figures, you choose the order in which they activate. Quick strategic tip: You probably want to activate Riddle Me This first just about every time! :-)_________________________________________________________________

-Combinations and Synergies-

Synergy Benefits Received


Classic:
N/AMarvel:
N/AC3G:
As a Crime Lord, Penguin may be activated by Street Thugs' (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=28629) or Killer Penguins (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=36984)' Crime Lord Bonding special power.
As a Unique Human Hero, Penguin may be healed by Alfred Pennyworth's (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=30311) Field Medic special power.
As a Crime Lord, Penguin may be activated by Kingpin (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=33766)'s Organized Crime special power.
As a Crime Lord, Penguin rolls 1 additional die when attacking a figure targeted by Hush (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=35869)'s Obsessive Vendetta with a normal attack while taking a turn with the Master Manipulator special power.
As a Crime Lord, Penguin may by activated by The Hood (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=38192)'s Criminal Ambition special power.Synergy Benefits Offered


Classic:
N/AMarvel:
N/AC3G:
As a Human, Penguin allows adjacent friendly Civilians (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=967599) to roll an additional attack and defense die due to their Strength in Numbers special power.
As a Crime Lord, after revealing an Order Marker on and instead of moving with Penguin, you may move up to 3 Bodyguards (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=32127) you control with the Security Detail special power.
As a Crime Lord, after revealing an Order Marker on and instead of attacking with Penguin, you may attack with the Hired Guns (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=32535) with the Trigger Happy special power.
As a Crime Lord, Penguin may be chosen as the Intergang Agents' (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=40000) Boss, allowing the Intergang Agents to move and attack with an additional figure for each revealed Order Marker on this card._________________________________________________________________



-Strategy, Tactics and Tips-
N/A-Heroscapers Community Contributions-
Initial Playtest: Griffin (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1105234&postcount=20)
Second Playtest@ 100-120: Scapemage (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1118766&postcount=68)
Third Playtest @ 110: Lord Pyre (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1127627&postcount=70)
Fourth Playtest @ 120: Master Tang (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1132816&postcount=71)

[Griffin]

for Updating With Proposals, Votes, And Changes To The Card:

n/a

[whitestuff]

Penguin is looking good.

The only other comic art that I thought might be OK (with a little editing) is here...
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb279/bwhit89/c3g/Batman_696.jpg

[GreyOwl]

Interesting take on Penguin. A few comments:

- SELF IMPORTANCE - Is this really supposed to apply to opponent's figures, too, or is that just a typo? If it does, I think it might be too powerful thematically for someone like Penguin.

- UMBRELLA GUN SPECIAL ATTACK - I don't see how he can use the umbrealla to shoot and fly in the same "phase". He uses it either to fly or shoot, but not both at the same time, right?

- UMBRELLA COPTER - I don't think it should be stealth. One, because I think we've been overusing that lately, and two because an Umbrella Copter sounds fairly slow.

[NecroBlade]

Interesting take on Penguin. A few comments:

- SELF IMPORTANCE - Is this really supposed to apply to opponent's figurs, too, or is that just a typo? If it does, I think it might be too powerful thematically for someone like Penguin.

- UMBRELLA GUN SPECIAL ATTACK - I don't see how he can use the umbrealla to shoot and fly in the same "phase". He uses it either to fly or shoot, but not both at the same time, right?

- UMBRELLA COPTER - I don't think it should be stealth. One, because I think we've been overusing that lately, and two because an Umbrella Copter sounds fairly slow.:word:

[Griffin]

Interesting take on Penguin. A few comments:

- SELF IMPORTANCE - Is this really supposed to apply to opponent's figurs, too, or is that just a typo? If it does, I think it might be too powerful thematically for someone like Penguin.Honestly, I just wasn't sure where to take that, so I figured I would aim high and adjust the power as the comments rolled in. I will update now to affect only figures "you control". :thumbsup:

- UMBRELLA GUN SPECIAL ATTACK - I don't see how he can use the umbrealla to shoot and fly in the same "phase". He uses it either to fly or shoot, but not both at the same time, right?The figure I am using has two umbrellas, one for flying and one for shooting. I love the tactical decisions that this power could create, so I am liking its theme and mechanics, it will be difficult to sell me off of this one.

- UMBRELLA COPTER - I don't think it should be stealth. One, because I think we've been overusing that lately, and two because an Umbrella Copter sounds fairly slow.OK, I wasn't sure about this one either, again I just thought I would aim high and adjust later, though I did sorta like the idea that he is somewhat slippery and good at getting away, but I will update it. :up:

[Hahma]

Like the base stats. Though should his normal attack be 4, especially with range and an easy means to gain height advantage? Is he that good of a melee fighter or is that for a pistol? Considering Thugs need height or concrete/asphalt to even get an attack of three with a pistol, I didn't know how good Penguin really is. Is he an expert with guns? I'm asking because I'm just curious, as I don't know how he is in the comics vs. animated shows because that's all I see him in.

For Self Importance - With this, you can potentially take a full turn with 3 different units in one turn, though only once per round. Ex: Prof X reveal OM, Penguin takes turn then 2 mutants take turns. Or, Unique Hero that has bonding with squads and allows a squad to take a turn before him/her. That Hero reveals OM, Penguin takes a turn, Squad figures take a turn, original OM revealing Hero takes a turn. Cyclops's Telepathic Rappor, Cyc reveals OM, Penguin takes a turn, Cyc moves, Telepath takes a turn. What about Riddler with Riddle Me This where it says, "Immediately after revealing an Order Marker..." which "immediately" has the right of way, Penguin or Riddler's power? Do we roll a d20 to see who goes first or get to choose? If we have other powers in the future with the "after revealing OM, immediately do this" wording, do we have a precedent on how this works? I'm just curious.

Umbrella Gun - Interesting, can offer some neat choices. If you're adjacent to an opponent and use it, you'd have to risk leaving engagement to use it, but that might be a fun choice to make. Otherwise I can see some neat options in different situations.

[A3n]

- UMBRELLA GUN SPECIAL ATTACK - I don't see how he can use the umbrealla to shoot and fly in the same "phase". He uses it either to fly or shoot, but not both at the same time, right?The figure I am using has two umbrellas, one for flying and one for shooting. I love the tactical decisions that this power could create, so I am liking its theme and mechanics, it will be difficult to sell me off of this one.


Umbrella Gun - Interesting, can offer some neat choices. If you're adjacent to an opponent and use it, you'd have to risk leaving engagement to use it, but that might be a fun choice to make. Otherwise I can see some neat options in different situations.

I agree strategically it makes for some interesting choices & will probably open up some equally interesting opportunities, but thematically it's lost on me. The Penguin never used his umbrella copter to zip around a battlefield. On the very rare occasion he used it to fly into the scene, but his main use of it was for exiting the fight. It was always more the live to fight another day option then a means of transport.

Cheers

[Hahma]

- UMBRELLA GUN SPECIAL ATTACK - I don't see how he can use the umbrealla to shoot and fly in the same "phase". He uses it either to fly or shoot, but not both at the same time, right?The figure I am using has two umbrellas, one for flying and one for shooting. I love the tactical decisions that this power could create, so I am liking its theme and mechanics, it will be difficult to sell me off of this one.


Umbrella Gun - Interesting, can offer some neat choices. If you're adjacent to an opponent and use it, you'd have to risk leaving engagement to use it, but that might be a fun choice to make. Otherwise I can see some neat options in different situations.

I agree strategically it makes for some interesting choices & will probably open up some equally interesting opportunities, but thematically it's lost on me. The Penguin never used his umbrella copter to zip around a battlefield. On the very rare occasion he used it to fly into the scene, but his main use of it was for exiting the fight. It was always more the live to fight another day option then a means of transport.

Cheers


There is that point A3n. I only see him in the animated series' where he uses his umbrella to escape, but I didn't know if he uses it more often in the comics to get around and attack from. :shrug: I mean, I can see the fun of it for sure, but am not the best person to know how thematic it is. I defer to the experts of the DC world/Batman world :D

[Griffin]

Even in the comics Penguin rarely uses his Copter and when he does it is usually for escaping, however, he has and is able to use it for tactical advantages when necessary. The figure has two umbrellas, so while one is flying (a minimum amount and not "all over the battlefield") the other is shooting.

I could drop his attack to 3 possibly.

For the concerns with the Self Importance power getting out of hand, I will change it so that it is an "instead of taking a turn with that figure" power. This way, if you reveal an Order marker on Cyclops, and then you use this power, only Penguin will take the turn.

[IAmBatman]

OK, I like his base stats, though 4 is a little powerful for an Umbrella gun, IMO (which I'm assuming the base stats represent). I'd rather see melee range for him and that 4 representing his Umbrella sword, then keep the gun in the special attack.
I like the revised Umbrella Copter - I don't think Stealth would be good there either.
I don't like Self-Important both because of the potential over-bonding issues and because, with a name like that, I think it should be a weakness, not a major strength. Right now it's definitely a strength - I'd love to see the power there be a weakness. I really like how so far we've given all the Crimelords a weakness on their cards and I don't think Penguin is without personality foibles that would/should show up as weaknesses.
So, I love the power name, but I don't think the power itself is working for me right now. Maybe something that forces you to take turns with Penguin instead of any other figures once per round? Something like that says "Self-Important" to me a bit more than what you have here.
Thematically I don't understand the fly-by restriction on the special attack. I'm kind of glad it's not just a straight up multiple attack because of the power level that would represent, but this approach is a bit lost on me thematically. Maybe you can explain where you're coming from a bit more?
In terms of power, with him at 100 points, I can't see ever, ever drafting Two-Face over him. He offers so much more to the Thugs than Two-Face does and so much more easily, and reliably, IMO. So I'm real iffy on the 100 point cost right now.

[Griffin]

Well the point cost was more of a copy and paste place holder from Black Mask, it means nothing right now.

The Special Attack theme is that if Penguin attacks you while he is directly above you, he has a good shot on you with "height advantage". Other than that, it was more of a fun tactical thing than just theme.

I will work on the "Self" power a bit more. I agree that the Crimelords should have a type of weakness, but I was having a hard time finding one for him. However, I think I have an idea.... give me a minute. :)

[IAmBatman]

Glad to hear changes are on the way for the Self Important power and, likely, his cost estimate.
For the Special Attack, I understand the second sentence, but the first throws me a bit ...

"After attacking with Umbrella Gun Special Attack, Penguin may attack one additional time if he moves again using his Umbrella-Copter 2 Special Power."

Why is the double attack dependent on his use of the Umbrella-Copter? I get the attack bonus coming from him using it, but not the double attack ... thematically, I mean.
Also, the mechanics are confusing there. Does he get to move, attack, move with the umbrella copter, attack again? Either way, I think that sentence needs a bit more clarity, whether what I'm reading is the intention or if the intention is something else.

[Griffin]

Glad to hear changes are on the way for the Self Important power and, likely, his cost estimate.
For the Special Attack, I understand the second sentence, but the first throws me a bit ...

"After attacking with Umbrella Gun Special Attack, Penguin may attack one additional time if he moves again using his Umbrella-Copter 2 Special Power."

Why is the double attack dependent on his use of the Umbrella-Copter? I get the attack bonus coming from him using it, but not the double attack ... thematically, I mean.
Also, the mechanics are confusing there. Does he get to move, attack, move with the umbrella copter, attack again? Either way, I think that sentence needs a bit more clarity, whether what I'm reading is the intention or if the intention is something else.
:lol: OK, I see now. Forgive me but lately I have been a bit sleep deprived, and that is coming from me. :lol:
I will simplify things a bit there and see what we get. :)

[Griffin]

OK, how is that?

[Hahma]

Better :D

[IAmBatman]

Perfect. :thumbsup:
Maybe put a number on the Self-Importance power's title?

[Griffin]

OK, I am gonna try and do the initial playtest tomorrow, hopefully I can find the time between doctor appointments, shopping, business, diapers, house cleaning, and cutting the grass. :shock:

[A3n]

OK, I am gonna try and do the initial playtest tomorrow, hopefully I can find the time between doctor appointments, shopping, business, diapers, house cleaning, and cutting the grass. :shock:

& time to earn a few brownie points with the new mum:p

[Griffin]

C3G PLAY TEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT PENGUIN

- THEME TEST/ Check to see if there are any powers or stats on the test unit card that does not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character would and could do. Also consider destructible objects, and whether or not this characters powers should affect them.
PASS

- MIRROR TEST/ Check to see if the unit were played against itself, if there would be any loops that would upset the balance of the Game.
PASS
- BONDING TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing Bonding abilities to make sure there are no continual Bonding possibilities that do not stop appropriately or do not stop at all. This is to prevent loops in Bonding.
PASS

- SYNERGIES TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing synergies to make sure there are no factors that could break the game by making any unit to powerful or too weak.
PASS

- POWER CHECK/ Consider the test unit and all existing units and all glyphs to compare to and check for any powers that could be over amplified and break the game. Each power must define when it takes place, who or what it affects, and What are the stipulations on the power if there are any.
PASS

- FUN TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play.
PASS Even though Penguin can get on a very annoying streak, he is still useful and fun.

- FUN COMPETITIVE TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play against.
PASS It is lots of fun seeing your opponent defeat his own plans. :lol:

- DRAFTING TEST/ Consider whether or not this design is worth drafting.
PASS

- USAGE TEST/ Consider whether or not all of the powers on this card were used or at least usable.
PASS though the Self Importance power is completely useless when all you have left is Penguin.

- STRATEGY TEST/ Consider whether or not the design offers any real strategy or interesting tactics to the overall game.
PASS

- Heavy Hitter or Mid-Level Hero/ Does it pass? YES these tests were fun, but I also got a good look at Penguin's point value when he is NOT taking turns away from his team. So under these conditions, I believe that he is worth at least 120 with his ability to fly, have a decent ranged attack, a multiple special attack, and the ability to modify that special attack.

TEST 1
Map: Platforms 5 and 6
Units: Penguin VS Two-Face
Penguin wins with 0 wounds.

TEST 2
Map: Platforms 5 and 6
Units: Penguin VS Black Mask
Penguin wins with 1 wound.

TEST 3
Map: Platforms 5 and 6
Units: Penguin VS Pyro
Penguin wins with 3 wounds.

TEST 4
Map: Platforms 5 and 6
Units: Penguin VS Kaemon Awa
Awa wins with 3 wounds.

TEST 5
Map: Platforms 5 and 6
Units: Penguin VS Angel
Angel wins with 3 wounds.
_____________________________________________________________


- Squad / Does it pass? YES, same as above. When he is NOT screwing up your plans by stealing turns from your army, he is worth about 10 points more. So alone, he is worth 120, with an army, he is worth 110.
Map: Platforms 5 and 6
Units: Penguin VS X2 Stingers
Penguin wins with 0 wounds.

They meet each other in engagement on height, and Penguin kills one with his Special attack, the last two surround him and fail their attacks, then he uses his special attack again killing them both.

_____________________________________________________________


- Army Test/ Does it pass? Yes, very close game, and lots of fun.
Map: Platforms 5 and 6
Units: Penguin, Two-Face, Black Mask, Lex Luthor, x2 Street Thugs, and Isamu VS Superman and Batman
It starts with Lex getting initiative and trying to take a good spot on the battlefield, but then Penguin pushed him out of the way and flew up on to height above his team, squawking as he flies. Batman moves up as well to assess the situation before sending his Kryptonite Allergic friend into the heat of things. Street Thugs try to claim their turf and take Two-Face as their Lead Boss, but once again, Penguin let them know who was most important. Penguin flies up again moving closer to Batman. Batman grapples up and is now above everyone. Street Thugs get Black Mask into position and circle him while on asphalt, making any champion or vigilante think twice before coming into their hood. Batman advances and wounds Penguin, Black Mask, and kills a Thug with a flurry of Batarangs from the shadows. Thugs try to retaliate, but once again, Penguin takes it upon himself to take the fight to Batman. He flies up and takes a wound from evasive strike, then attacks again and puts two wounds on Batman. Batman moves away slightly and Batarangs Penguin but misses a thug and Black Mask. The Thugs take their turn and they call in Two Face who puts a wound on Batman, then a thug on asphalt while next to BM gets a final shot in on the Batman! Penguin gets a surprise attack from the speeding bullet man of steel, and dies with one good punch. Superman moves in attack Two Face, but fails. Then Lex infects Superman with red K, and Superman flies away into a circle of Thugs and Isamu thinking they are all good friends.... Then Lex shoots Superman from height for a wound. Superman kills a Thug. The Thugs get height and asphalt or Criminal Motivation... anything they can to boost their attacks. They whittle away at Superman as he attempts to do the same. It comes down to Superman (6 wounds) VS Lex (healthy) and Two Face (3 wounds). Superman punches Lex first with 7 skulls!!!! Lex dies and Two Face gives up and admits that Superman has served Justice. TF rolls for Heads you live and Superman is fortunate... but TF was not.

Superman wins with 6 wounds.
_____________________________________________________________


- Army Test/ Does it pass? YES this was a great game and Penguin can be annoying, but it isn't that bad since he is actually more useful when he is being self centered.
Map: Platforms 5 and 6
Units: Penguin, Two Face, Black Mask, Toad, x2 Street Thugs, and Isamu, VS Batman, Huntress, Black Canary, and Alfred
Thugs and TF move up. Black Canary moves up. Penguin steals the show away from the thugs and flies towards Canary. Canary runs towards a ladder. Penguin steals the show again and takes height, but he can't see Canary. Penguin then runs over towards Canary and flies over her while she is on the ladder, and attacks her twice with his Special Attack and she takes 3 wounds. Canary gets to the top but is winded and can't hurt the old birdman. Penguin takes a leaving engagement from Canary and tries his Special Attack again but he fails miserably. Then Canary gets her Fist of Fury rolling and sends the Penguin packin. Alfred calls Canary home and heals her up a bit. The Thugs finally have freedom to do what they want, but they are cautious not to upset either one of their twisted bosses. BC burns through several Orders trying to get Alfred's hands to keep still long enough to fix her up, but the old man wasn't up to it. While Canary had all that going on, TF and the Thugs had snuck up through the tunnels and were shooting at Huntress. Canary finally healed once and then ran up and screamed a couple of thugs to death. Two Face then killed her with a triple attack, then the thugs put Huntress in critical danger. TF went after Alfred and gave him a wound, while the Thugs took shots at Batman and Huntress, dieing to Evasive Strike and missing Huntress completely. Huntress survived a leaving engagement attack, then another one as she passed TF, now adjacent to Alfred, Huntress shot TF with a perfect 5 skull roll on her cross bow, then killed a thug on height. On Huntress's next turn, she healed two wounds, and then killed another Thug. Black Mask moves in with a few more Thugs and they manage to kill Huntress, and wound Batman again. Batman swings up on height, and kills a thug, and wounds Black Mask. Alfred moves up and shoots Black Mask and a thug with his Shotgun, but he failed. Then the Thug tried to shoot Batman, but he failed, and so Black Mask killed that thug with the back of his hand. Batman swoops down adjacent to BM and Alfred, and gets BM one away from death. Then Black Mask fails his attack and the remaining two thugs advance. Batman is healed some by Alfred, then he swings back up to height killing a thug. Then the last thug kills Batman with BM's help. Alfred shoots the two standing together, and kills them both. Now Alfred is one away from death, and he is on the opposite side of the map of a very nasty Toad and a very tricky Isamu. Alfred tries his best to stick to the shadows in the tunnels, but he is alone and scared. Toad hops around out of sight getting ready for his ambush, but when he attacks, Alfred was ready and rolled all shields in the shadows. Alfred then fires and hits Toad for one wound. Then Toad tries again, but once again he fails. Alfred then with an incredible 3 skull attack with his Shotgun, killed the whiffing Toad on height, and then advanced towards the sleeping Ninja. Alfred rolls a single skull on Isamu, and Isamu fails the D20 roll but he did manage to roll a shield. Isamu moves up and attacks but fails. Alfred attacks again, but Isamu vanishes into the shadows. Isamu then sneaks up behind the Old Butler and stabs him in the back for the win.

Isamu wins with no wounds.. duh. :neener:

[Hahma]

Nice test Griff. Looked like it was a lot of fun and it seemed nice to have all those Crime Lords around for the Thugs to choose from. Penguin seemed like he didn't need to bond with the Thugs as he took it upon himself to take turns and that seemed fun though it kind of foils your own plans sometimes. But he seems like he can be effective nonetheless and put 2 wounds on Bats, so he earned his points and led the way in showing how it is supposed to be done.

[IAmBatman]

This design looks like it's really working out well. :-) I'm happy with what I'm reading thus far.
What did you have him costed at for that test?

[Griffin]

This design looks like it's really working out well. :-) I'm happy with what I'm reading thus far.
What did you have him costed at for that test?
110 and that seems pretty spot on. I would be absolutely surprised if that cost changes.

[IAmBatman]

110 is sounding good to me as well.
I love how all three of our crimelords both benefit our Thugs and make things difficult on them. :-) Such thematic superhero fun.

[Griffin]

110 is sounding good to me as well.
I love how all three of our crimelords both benefit our Thugs and make things difficult on them. :-) Such thematic superhero fun.
Exactly! And on the mechanical/power-level side of things, the more the Criminal faction grows, the more at risk we are to creating a power creep, but by creating fun wonky powers that are as much of a benefit as they are a detriment, it is a nice way to check that power level in a fun thematic way. Go Criminal Faction! :thumbsup:

[Griffin]

OK, I guess I am doing things a bit differently here, since I just finished the two army tests first, and two Units that I used were Alfred and Black Mask which haven't been released yet, but what the heck, it really needed to be tested Imo. :D

[whitestuff]

OK, I guess I am doing things a bit differently here, since I just finished the two army tests first, and two Units that I used were Alfred and Black Mask which haven't been released yet, but what the heck, it really needed to be tested Imo. :DThat last army test was a great read. :up:

I think that I'll count this as a bit of a test for Alfred as well...

He seems to be MVP for the match. A few good healing turns, a successful evac and more kills than I'd imagined. I know that one great outing is just that, but does this effect our 40 points thinking?

[Griffin]

OK, I guess I am doing things a bit differently here, since I just finished the two army tests first, and two Units that I used were Alfred and Black Mask which haven't been released yet, but what the heck, it really needed to be tested Imo. :DThat last army test was a great read. :up:

I think that I'll count this as a bit of a test for Alfred as well...

He seems to be MVP for the match. A few good healing turns, a successful evac and more kills than I'd imagined. I know that one great outing is just that, but does this effect our 40 points thinking?
I am glad you brought that up, and I am gonna take that to the Alfred thread actually.

[Griffin]

My Penguin test is finished, now I am waiting for any responses from you guys or 24 hours before I send it to the ERB.

[A3n]

My Penguin test is finished, now I am waiting for any responses from you guys or 24 hours before I send it to the ERB.

I'm good with him. :thumbsup:

[Hahma]

Looks good to me :up:

[IAmBatman]

You know I like him! :-)

[Griffin]

I propose that we move Penguin to the ERB phase.

[A3n]

I propose that we move Penguin to the ERB phase.

Yea

[Spidey'tilIDie]

After reading the playtest, Heck Yea!

[GreyOwl]

Yea

[whitestuff]

Yea

[IAmBatman]

Wasn't planning on being on here for a couple of weeks, but accidentally clicked the website and now you know I've gotta catch up. ;) So, yea.

[Hahma]

yea

[Griffin]

The ERB proposal passes based on time, and I am sending him to two random ERB members since I don't know who is next in rotation and we still don't have a system for that.

[Griffin]

Here is Aldin's ERB response:

Yay, ERB time!

I like the concept for the most part. Penguin has always been a fairly weak matchup for the Dark Knight and he never operated solo so 110 works to allow him to surround himself with other crooks.

I'm not quite sure I understand the interrelationship between self-importance, umbrella gun and umbrella copter. Why does he fly faster with self-importance? Why does his gun shoot better when he flies over someone (the same gun that is in the umbrella he is using to fly over them)? Why does he normally have to take a disengagement strike in order to fly over someone (with a move of 2, he can only fly over someone he starts next to)?

What if you bumped umbrellacopter to 3 and switched self-importance to boosting the umbrella gun? You'd never know when he'd be particularly effective, just like now, but it eliminates the flyover mechanic which I think works for the speedy Wyvern but is brutally difficult to make happen with Penguin, as is.

Other than that, good stats, good bio, good pic!

~Aldin, who thinks he's playable 'as is' but thinks it's a bit clunky

[Griffin]

Why does he fly faster with self-importance? IMO, it is because he is ambitious to prove his own importance.

Why does his gun shoot better when he flies over someone (the same gun that is in the umbrella he is using to fly over them)? Again, and I say that because it has come up earlier with one or two of us, the figure used here actually has two umbrellas. Also, in Heroscape height advantage adds to your attack, so the idea here is if Penguin flies over you, he adds to his attack, but that theme seems to be getting lost on some people.

Why does he normally have to take a disengagement strike in order to fly over someone (with a move of 2, he can only fly over someone he starts next to)?I did have a free disengage on the umbrella early on, but we agreed to not do that and just make it challenging and possibly even damning for him to use that SA.

What if you bumped umbrellacopter to 3 and switched self-importance to boosting the umbrella gun? You'd never know when he'd be particularly effective, just like now, but it eliminates the flyover mechanic which I think works for the speedy Wyvern but is brutally difficult to make happen with Penguin, as is.That isn't a bad idea, and I could probably go with it, even though boosting the attack with Self Importance makes just as much sense as boosting the Flying with Self Importance :roll:. The only thing I wouldn't like about it is his normal move being 4 and his Flying being 3, his normal movement may not get used very often. Also, I personally liked the current mechanics of trying to get that SA to work even if it means taking a leaving engagement attack. It was fun making decisions between pros and cons because of the mechanics.

As far as any changes here, I am at a bit of a loss if any should be made, and if they would actually make him more fun to play. :reapershrug:

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, I think I'm in the same place you are on this one. Wish I could actually play it to give myself a better concept but, well, you know ...

[A3n]

Thematically & logically I would agree with Aldin. But the idea of Penguin doing the fly-over in Heroscape is also theoretically appealing for the gameplay aspect alone & gives him a quirkiness that is normally associated with the Penguin (if not actually portrayed in comics this way). So I'll go with the :shrug: also.

Cheers

[Griffin]

Thematically & logically I would agree with Aldin. But the idea of Penguin doing the fly-over in Heroscape is also theoretically appealing for the gameplay aspect alone & gives him a quirkiness that is normally associated with the Penguin (if not actually portrayed in comics this way). So I'll go with the :shrug: also.

Cheers:reapershrug: Yeah, my shoulders are getting sore, so you can take over now. :)

[IAmBatman]

I'm pro-fly over as well. That at least I'm sure on.

[NecroBlade]

The thing with the fly-over boosting the attack is that special attacks are never modified. So while I understand the logic and theme, "in Heroscape, height advantage adds to your attack" doesn't ever actually apply to special attacks.

[Hahma]

Why does his gun shoot better when he flies over someone (the same gun that is in the umbrella he is using to fly over them)? Again, and I say that because it has come up earlier with one or two of us, the figure used here actually has two umbrellas. Also, in Heroscape height advantage adds to your attack, so the idea here is if Penguin flies over you, he adds to his attack, but that theme seems to be getting lost on some people.


I think the theme part of it that some people might be struggling with is that from what exposure most people are exposed to Penguin, he usually might enter or exit via the umbrella and not use regularly during a battle and consistently shooting people from above.

While thematically it might seem a little off, it does seem to offer some fun gameplay. So the balance between gameplay and theme should be measured and whatever seems best should win out.

[A3n]

The thing with the fly-over boosting the attack is that special attacks are never modified. So while I understand the logic and theme, "in Heroscape, height advantage adds to your attack" doesn't ever actually apply to special attacks.

That's not an issue as the boost would be written into the special attack not the fly-over power.

cheers

[NecroBlade]

I know that. But the logic that "he has height advantage when flying, therefore he should get extra attack dice" is flawed in Heroscape.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I am just thinking aloud here because Aldin's got me thinking: why does Penguin move so well normally? He should be less mobile, probably 3, and his helicoptor, IMO, should be three also. But, he should get additional Attack dice on Umbrella Gun if he doesn't use the Umbrellacoptor. Thoughts?

[Griffin]

I am just thinking aloud here because Aldin's got me thinking: why does Penguin move so well normally? He should be less mobile, probably 3, and his helicoptor, IMO, should be three also. But, he should get additional Attack dice on Umbrella Gun if he doesn't use the Umbrellacoptor. Thoughts?
My thought is that a move of 3 is absolute garbage and completely a waste. I think that 4 is as low as it gets for anyone IMO.

[whitestuff]

Penguin always seems to be fairly mobile when running away from Batman...

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I am just thinking aloud here because Aldin's got me thinking: why does Penguin move so well normally? He should be less mobile, probably 3, and his helicoptor, IMO, should be three also. But, he should get additional Attack dice on Umbrella Gun if he doesn't use the Umbrellacoptor. Thoughts?
My thought is that a move of 3 is absolute garbage and completely a waste. I think that 4 is as low as it gets for anyone IMO.
Respectfully, Oswald is vertically challenged and by no means should move as fast as a normal human. He waddles. And to whitestuff's point, that has more to do with where he runs, than how fast.

[Hahma]

Professor X has a move of 4. I can't see anyone really going lower than that.

[IAmBatman]

I think what Griffin means and Hahma is saying is that if you give someone a move of 3 they're pretty much unplayable.

[Griffin]

Matt Helm's ERB response:

I like the stats and I like the ideas, but I think there is risk/reward balance missing that would make him almost un-draft worthy. Of course I'm talking about the negative aspect of Self Importance.

As written, 35% of your turns will have to be taken with Penguin!?! Now I know the Special Attack becomes a little better because the Copter becomes a little better by Self Importance (Argh... that's a chain to follow but after the first time playing, it should get to be easy enough to remember) but it doesn't seem to be potent enough to want to risk this guy on your team.

Based on his slow moving (4 normal and 2 with copter), until this game gets really underway, you may be forced to be putting this guy around for 4 spaces every third turn without having anyone to attack. And once you do get him close enough, the opponent will engage him so that every time Self Importance kicks in, he runs the risk of leaving engagement strikes if he wants to use the copter.

My first suggestion is raise the number on Self Importance to 18.

Then I think there has to be some better wording on the Attack:

UMBRELLA GUN SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 3. Attack 3.
Add 2 additional attack dice if Penguin used his Umbrella-Copter 2 Special Power this turn to pass over a figure defending against Umbrella Gun Special Attack. After attacking with Umbrella Gun Special Attack, Penguin may attack one additional time.

I hope all that made sense.

[Griffin]

As written, 35% of your turns will have to be taken with Penguin!?! Now I know the Special Attack becomes a little better because the Copter becomes a little better by Self Importance (Argh... that's a chain to follow but after the first time playing, it should get to be easy enough to remember) but it doesn't seem to be potent enough to want to risk this guy on your team.

Based on his slow moving (4 normal and 2 with copter), until this game gets really underway, you may be forced to be putting this guy around for 4 spaces every third turn without having anyone to attack. And once you do get him close enough, the opponent will engage him so that every time Self Importance kicks in, he runs the risk of leaving engagement strikes if he wants to use the copter.

My first suggestion is raise the number on Self Importance to 18.I see the value of the current power, but it does concern me if Matt and others don't see that the reward is worth the risk. I could see bumping the D20 roll but not as high as 18. I would go as high as 16 (half way from the current to Matt's suggestion).

Then I think there has to be some better wording on the Attack:

UMBRELLA GUN SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 3. Attack 3.
Add 2 additional attack dice if Penguin used his Umbrella-Copter 2 Special Power this turn to pass over a figure defending against Umbrella Gun Special Attack. After attacking with Umbrella Gun Special Attack, Penguin may attack one additional time.
I just don't like that wording, plain and simple. I think that the double attack aspect definitely needs to come first to establish that it applies with or without the modifier.

[IAmBatman]

It seems like boosting his normal Umbrellacopter move to 3 might alleviate most of the concerns of both of our ERB members here.

[Griffin]

It seems like boosting his normal Umbrellacopter move to 3 might alleviate most of the concerns of both of our ERB members here.
Done, and I changed the D20 roll on SI to 16.

[Griffin]

I propose that Penguin be moved to the Playtesting Phase.

[Hahma]

yea

[A3n]

Yea - I'm eager to see what the playtests results show.

[whitestuff]

Yea

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Yesh.

[Griffin]

Yesh.
Yeppers. :lol: I love that show. The Office

[Griffin]

The proposal passes, and it is going to the Playtesting Phase and Sign-up Thread.

[Griffin]

CHECK LIST FOR FIGURE UNITS
- THEME TEST/
Pass
- MIRROR TEST/
Pass
- BONDING TEST/ Pass
- SYNERGIES TEST/ Pass (I think thee's Crime Lord synergy...)
- POWER CHECK/
Pass
- FUN TEST/ Pass, but just barely. Self IMportance is annoyingm

-
FUN COMPETITIVE TEST/ Pass, especially when opponent can't take a turn with the figure they wanted to.
- DRAFTING TEST/ Pass. Self Importance brings doubt, but he'd be drafted as more of a filler (currently the lowest cost Official Comic unit I know of).
- USAGE TEST/
Pass
- STRATEGY TEST/
Pass
PLAY TEST LIST FOR FIGURE UNITS
All tests done on Badru Valley
- HEAVY HITTER TEST
/
Vs. Krug, win: Krug 0 wounds
Vs. Grimnak, win: Grimnak 0 wounds (got lucky on Chomp)
Vs. Two-Face win: Penguin 0 wounds (Two-Face couldn't attack once)
Vs. Catwoman, win: Catwoman 5 wounds
Vs. Riddler, win: Penguin 0 wounds
- SQUAD TEST
/ Vs. 2x Stingers
R1: Penguin moves/ Stingers move/ Penguin moves, spce. atk kills a Stinger/ Stingers move, Drain fails, a Stinger dies/ Penguin spec. atk twice, kills 2 Stingers/ Stingers move, Drain, atk 2 wounds to Penguin
R2: Penguin moves, spec. atk misses/ Stingers move, Drain fails, another Stinger dies/ Penguin moves, spec. atk kills the last Stinger
Win: Penguin 2 wounds

- ARMY TEST/
Penguin, Huntress, and Arkillo Vs. Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter
R1: MM moves, dispatches WW/ Huntress moves/ MM moves, atk for 1 wound on Huntress, Ruthless counterstrike deals 4 wounds back to MM, dispatches WW/ Self IMportance makes Penguin move, atk misses/ WW lassos Huntress, atk for 2 wounds on Huntress/ Arkillo moves, removes a marker, uses Eviscerate for 1 wound on WW, atk for another 2 wounds on WW
R2: MM moves, atk misses/ Huntress moves, atk misses/ WW kills Huntress/ Arkillo removes last marker, uses Eviscerate for 2 wounds on WW, atk misses/ WW atk for 4 wounds on Arkillo/ Arkillo kills WW
R3: MM kills Arkillo/ Penguin flies, spec. atk kills MM
Win: Team 1: Penguin with 0 wounds

Penguin, Flash, and Hawkgirl Vs. Batman and Superman (what can I say? You suggested it)

R1: Batman moves/ Flash moves, spec. atk kills Batman (it took all 4 attacks though)/ Flash moves again, spec. atk for 2 wounds on Superman/ Superman atk, Flash dodges it and moves/ Flash moves once more, spec. atk for another 2 wounds on Superman
R2: Superman atk, Flash dodges and moves again/ Penguin moves/ Superman moves kills Flash/ Penguin moves, atk misses/ Superman moves, kills Penguin (I presume Hawkgirl didn't fair too well)


Analysis: Penguin isn't to good. Self Importance just gets in the way, and teams can fair without him. But, with his Copter combo, he becomes better. His copter move should be inceased, as it is very difficult to fly over someone with only 3 move. I think he belongs in the 100-120 range.

One down.

[IAmBatman]

Penguin looked like he racked up in the heavy hitter and squad tests for Scapemage there (not sure why his analysis is that Penguin isn't very good). Based on those tests, he seems more like 150!
He didn't do as well in the army tests, sure, but Scapemage also didn't play him with any street thugs, so I'm not sure how good of tests any of those were.
Right now, I'd say based on those tests, his current cost might be trending a tad low.
But I'd definitely like to see another test sheet from someone who, hopefully, will pair him with some street thugs!

[Griffin]

This is what Lord Pyre was able to accomplish, and I think he did a great job too. Penguin looks like his points should come down at least 10 points.


NAME OF THE TEST UNIT Penguin

- THEME TEST/ Check to see if there are any powers or stats on the test unit card that does not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character would and could do. Also consider destructible objects, and whether or not this characters powers should affect them.
Pass. Penguin definitely felt Penguin-ish to me! - MIRROR TEST/ Check to see if the unit were played against itself, if there would be any loops that would upset the balance of the Game.
Pass

- BONDING TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing Bonding abilities to make sure there are no continual Bonding possibilities that do not stop appropriately or do not stop at all. This is to prevent loops in Bonding.
Pass

- SYNERGIES TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing synergies to make sure there are no factors that could break the game by making any unit to powerful or too weak.
Pass

- POWER CHECK/ Consider the test unit and all existing units and all glyphs to compare to and check for any powers that could be over amplified and break the game. Each power must define when it takes place, who or what it affects, and What are the stipulations on the power if there are any.
Not so sure…He seems a bit underpowered to me. In almost all of the tests, Penguin lost handily. When he can get it to work, his beefed up umbrella gun is powerful, but it still doesn’t take on other heroes his point value. I compared him to Kaemon Awa, and his base stats are weaker, and his special attack is definitely worse. Sure he can fly the three spaces, but it doesn’t seem to make up for it. And I’d generally count his Self-Importance as a negative power, though it has the little bonus. But of course, I didn’t get to the full army tests, so I don’t know how much of a problem that would be. Personally, I’d suggest boosting his life to 5. I really don’t see a thematic reason it should be 4, and his survivability just isn’t that great, especially considering you might be using him half the game with his Self-Importance.

- FUN TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play.
Pass Sure, he wasn’t great, but he was a heck of a lot of fun to play! Flying just a couple spaces while making penguin sounds before blasting people with an umbrella. Haha, good times! :p

- FUN COMPETITIVE TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play against.
Pass Like I said, he’s not much of a threat at all, unless he pulls off his umbrella ambush, which with a move of only 3 is difficult, anyway.

- DRAFTING TEST/ Consider whether or not this design is worth drafting.
Pass Only with a crime lord army, though.

- USAGE TEST/ Consider whether or not all of the powers on this card were used or at least usable.
Pass Both his umbrellas were important, and his other ability will be used each turn, anyway.

- STRATEGY TEST/ Consider whether or not the design offers any real strategy or interesting tactics to the overall game.
Pass I like how you try to fly over the figures you attack, that’s a neat little mechanic.


Heavy Hitter or Mid-Level Hero
Map: Invasion, by LongHeroscaper
Pass
Penguin sucks in a one on one fight. :p There was a tactic I found that helped a bit, though. If he gets engaged, just disengage, fly over them, and shoot them twice. This is how he killed Sharwin so easily. Unfortunately, he can’t do that too much because of his low life. With 5 life I think he’d be easier to handle.

Vs. Kaemon Awa
(I thought they were the most comparable stat wise, even though KA still seems superior in almost every way. But let the tests speak for themselves…)

I: KA wins with 3 wounds. R3T1
II: KA wins with 1 wound R2T1. Penguin used the disengage and fly tactic, but it only put one wound on KA.
III: KA wins with 1 wound R2T2


Vs. Sharwin
I realized afterwards that this was a pretty bad match up. She never got to counter because of the special attack, and Penguin’s two attack easily out matched her auto-skull. :p

I: Penguin wins with 1 wound R2T1
II: Penguin wins with 1 wound. R2T3
III: Penguin wins with 2 wounds R2T1 (The disengage tactic finish Sharwin off)


Vs. Skahen
(I thought this would be a simple run away and shoot at Penguin while he struggles to keep up, but Skahen whiffed a lot. I wouldn’t mind doing these again! It was a fun test anyway!)

I: Penguin wins with 1 wound R3T1
II: Skahen wins with 0 wounds R1T3
III: Penguin wins with 3 wounds R3T1 (Skahen didn’t roll any defense that last round at all! :p )


Vs. Tandros
(I love this guy, he’s fun to test against since he’s such a tank)

I: Tandros wins with 4 wounds R2T1
II: Tandros wins with 6 wounds R3T1
III: Tandros wins with 0 wounds R2T1 (One hit KO! Tandros grabbed height by winning initiative and POW)


Vs. Migol
(I figured lets pit Penguin against a slow melee tank. Heh.)

I: Migol wins with 2 wounds R2T1
II: Migol wins with 2 wounds R2T3
III: Migol wins with 2 wounds R2T1 (One hit KO!)



Squad
Pass
I did two tests here, one against range, and one against melee. I totally expected the stinger to wipe him out each time, but Penguin DID get lucky that second battle. Slightly.


Vs. Stingers x2

I: Stingers win with 1 dead R2T1
II: Stingers win with 3 dead R3T2
III: Stingers win with 0 dead R1T3


Vs. Minions

I: Minions win with 1 dead R2T2
II Penguin wins with 3 wounds R3T2
III: Minions win with 1 dead R2T2

[Griffin]

He did a great job, and I am ready to pass Penguin at 120.
C3G PLAY TEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT Penguin
All Tests were done on Turret Rock BoV Map.

- THEME TEST/ Check to see if there are any powers or stats on the test unit card that does not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character would and could do. Also consider destructible objects, and whether or not this characters powers should affect them.
PASS

- MIRROR TEST/ Check to see if the unit were played against itself, if there would be any loops that would upset the balance of the Game.
PASS

- BONDING TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing Bonding abilities to make sure there are no continual Bonding possibilities that do not stop appropriately or do not stop at all. This is to prevent loops in Bonding.
PASS

- SYNERGIES TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing synergies to make sure there are no factors that could break the game by making any unit to powerful or too weak.
PASS

- POWER CHECK/ Consider the test unit and all existing units and all glyphs to compare to and check for any powers that could be over amplified and break the game. Each power must define when it takes place, who or what it affects, and What are the stipulations on the power if there are any.
PASS

- FUN TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play.
PASS

- FUN COMPETITIVE TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play against.
PASS

- DRAFTING TEST/ Consider whether or not this design is worth drafting.
PASS

- USAGE TEST/ Consider whether or not all of the powers on this card were used or at least usable.
PASS

- STRATEGY TEST/ Consider whether or not the design offers any real strategy or interesting tactics to the overall game.
PASS


ARMY TESTS:
ARMY TEST #1:
Penguin, Two-Face, & Street ThugsX2 (400pts) vs. Batman and Black Canary (390pts)
Round 1:
Turn 1:
- Thugs reveal Order Marker and Penguin fails roll (for future refrence I will only mention it when he succeeds roll), and thugs move forward
- Black Canary moves up
Turn 2:
- Penguin flies on height and Thugs move up and put 2 wounds on Black Canary
- Black Canary moves up and uses Canary Cry Special Attack to kill 2 Thugs
Turn 3:
- Penguin attacks Black Canary on height but whiffs and Thugs capture Glyph (+2 move) and put another wound on Canary
- Canary kills another 2 Thugs with Canary Cry Special Attack
Round 2:
Turn 1:
- Penguin moves up and Thugs shoot Black Canary to no avail.
- Canary moves onto water and kills another 2 Thugs with Canary Cry Special Attack
Turn 2:
- Penguin moves up using Umbrella Copter shoots Bats while on height, but Batman defends even when his dodge fails, and Thugs attack and kill Black Canary
- Order Marker was on Black Canary
Turn 3:
- Penguin rolls Self-Importance (17), and flies over with Umbrella CopterBatman and tries to use Umbrella Gun Special Attack, but Batman dodges both attacks putting 2 wounds on Penguin
- Batman puts another wound on Penguin
Round 3:
Turn 1:
- Batman attacks and kills Penguin
- Two-Face moves up and Thugs follow
Turn 2:
- Batman moves up and whiffs with a Batarang
- Two-Face moves up and fails with Flip of the Coin roll and thugs Shoot Bats, but dies for his foolishness
Turn 3:
- Batman grapples adjacent to Two-Face and puts 3 wounds on him
- Two-Face uses Heads You Live, Heads You Die and puts a wound on Batman, and another Thugs gets punished for his foolishness of attacking Batman.
Round 4:
Turn 1:
- Batman kills Two-Face
WINNER: Batman wins with 1 wound on Turn 1 of Round 4.
Army Test #2:
Penguin, Two-Face, & Street ThugsX2 (400pts) vs. Superman (400pts)
Round 1:
Turn 1:
- Superman moves up
- Two-Face and Thugs move up and shoot uselessly at Superman
Turn 2:
- Superman moves up and puts a wound on Two-Face
- Penguin moves up and shoots Superman with Umbrella Gun Special Attack for 2 wounds and Thugs move up and shoot at Superman harmlessly
Turn 3:
- Superman punches Two-Face for another wound
- Penguin flies over Superman and takes height and attacks Superman with Umbrella Gun Special Attack for 2 more wounds and Thugs get the glyph (+2 move), and shoot Superman to no avail
Round 2:
Turn 1:
- Superman punches Penguin for a wound
- Penguin flies over Superman and puts another wound on him with Umbrella Gun Special Attack, and Thugs move up and further surround Superman but they can't manage to hurt the Man of Steel
Turn 2:
- Superman kills Two-Face
- Penguin uses Umbrella Copter to fly over Superman and puts another wound on Penguin, Thugs shoot, but they can't hurt Superman
Turn 3:
- Superman kills a Thug
- Penguin uses Umbrella Copter to fly over and land adjacent to Superman, but his Umbrella Gun seems to be empty because he whiffs both attacks
Round 3:
Turn 1:
- Superman punches and kills Penguin
- Thugs shoot Superman, but can't seem to even scratch him
Turn 2:
- Superman kills another Thug
- Thugs can't seem to finish off the dieing Kryptonian
Turn 3:
- Superman kills another Thug- A lucky Thug manages to shoot the Man of Steel in the ear or something and kills Superman
WINNER: Street Thugs win with 5 left on Turn 3 of Round 3
Shouldn't Umbrella Gun Special Attack be worded as:
UMBRELLA GUN SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 3. Attack 3.
Penguin may use this special attack 2 times in the same turn. Penguin may target the same figure or a different figure with each attack.Anytime Penguin attacks a figure with his Umbrella Gun Special Attack after passing over them with his Umbrella-Copter 3 Special Power in the same turn, roll 2 additional attack dice.
or
UMBRELLA GUN SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 3. Attack 3.
When Penguin attacks with his Umbrella Gun Special Attack, he may attack one additional times. Penguin may target the same figure or a different figure with each attack.Anytime Penguin attacks a figure with his Umbrella Gun Special Attack after passing over them with his Umbrella-Copter 3 Special Power in the same turn, roll 2 additional attack dice. Just asking because I read Captain America's Shield Throw Special Attack and Major Q10's Wrist Rocket Special Attack , and they were worded like my two examples above. Regardless I like Penguin and he seems appropriately point costed, he just kept rolling insanely lucky when it came to attacking Superman.

[Griffin]

I propose we finalize Penguin at 120 points, and move him to the final editing phase.

[A3n]

Yea - have we got a photo of the mini yet?

[Hahma]

YEA to editing phase, not to have a photo yet. I think Spidey said he was going to get one before going away for a few weeks. I have a different Penguin figure.

[Griffin]

Yeah, Spidey said that he would take that pic for me.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Barring rain tomorrow, I should be able to get it done and posted by the evening. Oh yeah, ... Can I vote maybe? (just so Griff slows down so we can all catch up!) J/K YES!

[Griffin]

Barring rain tomorrow, I should be able to get it done and posted by the evening. Oh yeah, ... Can I vote maybe? (just so Griff slows down so we can all catch up!) J/K YES!
HA HA Very funny. I have been waiting over two weeks for that last playtest from Lord Pyre, and I had to squeeze the heavy hitters and squad tests out of him before giving the rest over to Master Tang. then I had to wait a week for Tang. So for over 3 weeks, Penguin has sat still while I helped A LOT OF OTHER THINGS ALONG. ;)

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Check out my last post in Kyle's thread for pic update.

[Griffin]

Penguin passes and is now in the Final Editing Phase.

I just need a pic of this guy and we can get him on a card....

[A3n]

Ok until we get the mini photo I thought we could look at the comic card, but I'm not a fan of how the comic pic looks in the card. You decide:

http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac111/Amas73/Private/C3G/C3G_Penguin_comic.jpg

Cheers

[whitestuff]

I'll have to agree with you A3n...

[Hahma]

That's one big face on that card :shock: :D

[IAmBatman]

Hmm ... well, that'll give Griff something to do while he's waiting on photos. :-P

[Griffin]

Yeah he looks like he ate some magic cupcake inside of wonderland and grew too large for his own card. :lol: But that is the best pic I could find.

[IAmBatman]

We could possibly zoom in on this one:

a) http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/51843/1147839-bopv2_cv2_2_02.jpg
Or this one:
b) http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/51843/1024084-1024075_bm_cv696_super.jpg
c) http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/34475/948988-penguin_2.jpg
d) http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/1/13925/298817-46218-penguin.jpg

[whitestuff]

B is the pick of the bunch.

[Griffin]

B is the pick of the bunch.
With those sonic rings though..... nah. I like D. It is almost identical to the sculpt we are using, it even has the penguins. Awwwww.... they are sooo cu... Look out they have guns!!! :woot:

[A3n]

Here's a few others that we can zoom in on:

A.
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/BFTC-Cv3.jpg

B.
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080924181054/marvel_dc/images/7/71/Batman_Penguin_Triumphant.jpg

Cheers

[A3n]

We got a good photo from McCrimson, so now I have to ask do we want those $#*% penguins left in on the mini card? As I said else where if I had that figure I would be cutting them off when rebasing.

Cheers

[Grungebob]

This guy is interesting. Nicely done and very creative abilities. I feel like he could be more of a liability than an asset in a Comic based army. This makes me question his points. Compared to other supers he seems far less effective.

For some official designing Colby and I did a couple of years ago we toyed with liability characters. Very interesting. It wouldn't work with Penguin, but we felt like liability figures could lower the drafting cost of whoever was getting messed up the most from their liability. Say you are designing Andy Griffith and Barney Fief. You could design Andy as a capable 80 point hero with appropriate attacks and stats etc. You then design Barney as a bungling nuisance. If you draft Andy he is 80 points. If you also draft Barney, Andy becomes 70 points.

Anyway, I would lower the Penguin's points based upon his lack of drafting desirability.

[GreyOwl]

I've actually considered something similar, but not exactly the same. I was thinking about the idea of making figures with negative points. So if you're playing a 500-point game and have filled out 400 points so far, you could actually draft a 150 point figure as long as you also draft the "-50" point figure to offset him. Of course, there would be a liability involved with the -50 point figure.

[whitestuff]

This guy is interesting. Nicely done and very creative abilities. I feel like he could be more of a liability than an asset in a Comic based army. This makes me question his points. Compared to other supers he seems far less effective.

For some official designing Colby and I did a couple of years ago we toyed with liability characters. Very interesting. It wouldn't work with Penguin, but we felt like liability figures could lower the drafting cost of whoever was getting messed up the most from their liability. Say you are designing Andy Griffith and Barney Fief. You could design Andy as a capable 80 point hero with appropriate attacks and stats etc. You then design Barney as a bungling nuisance. If you draft Andy he is 80 points. If you also draft Barney, Andy becomes 70 points.

Anyway, I would lower the Penguin's points based upon his lack of drafting desirability.

I've actually considered something similar, but not exactly the same. I was thinking about the idea of making figures with negative points. So if you're playing a 500-point game and have filled out 400 points so far, you could actually draft a 150 point figure as long as you also draft the "-50" point figure to offset him. Of course, there would be a liability involved with the -50 point figure.
This could an interesting way to create Bizarro...

[Grungebob]

I've actually considered something similar, but not exactly the same. I was thinking about the idea of making figures with negative points. So if you're playing a 500-point game and have filled out 400 points so far, you could actually draft a 150 point figure as long as you also draft the "-50" point figure to offset him. Of course, there would be a liability involved with the -50 point figure.
The interesting thing about Penguin is that his liability is variable depending on the value of the figure you are attempting to take a turn with. If you are about the lay down some whoop with Silver Surfer and suddenly this rinky dink decides it is his turn, it could mess up your whole game plan. Another way to do something like this would be to force the player to place all order markers on Penguin and then use a Kato mechanism to activate your other cards, but make the range of this activation such that it forces you to activate Penguin occasionally just to stay within range. In this case there would be no roll and the player could have a bit more control. The power would be less of a fluky liability and it would make it easier to price, but you would lose all of that quirky randomness that this character brings. Very interesting stuff here. You guys are great.

[Hahma]

This guy is interesting. Nicely done and very creative abilities. I feel like he could be more of a liability than an asset in a Comic based army. This makes me question his points. Compared to other supers he seems far less effective.

For some official designing Colby and I did a couple of years ago we toyed with liability characters. Very interesting. It wouldn't work with Penguin, but we felt like liability figures could lower the drafting cost of whoever was getting messed up the most from their liability. Say you are designing Andy Griffith and Barney Fief. You could design Andy as a capable 80 point hero with appropriate attacks and stats etc. You then design Barney as a bungling nuisance. If you draft Andy he is 80 points. If you also draft Barney, Andy becomes 70 points.

Anyway, I would lower the Penguin's points based upon his lack of drafting desirability.


Very interesting stuff there about the liability figures 8). To me, for it to work best, they'd have have synergy with one specific figure, class, species or personality and then the deduction in points can be easy to figure out based on if he's in an army with the one synergetic figure or in an army that would deduct points for each of the synergetic class, species or personality.

Now to Penguin. I didn't get a chance to playtest him unfortunately, as I can get to most of them but not all. But having a lot of experience testing and playing with Two-Face (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=28586), who can also be a liability for his cost, I can tell you that he's got the thematic frustrating aspect of deciding not to attack or wounding himself with HYL/HYD, but he can also get on a roll and really take out more points than he's worth on occasion. So while he can be maddening at times, he can also bring a lot of excitement when he comes through big.


Now the thing with Two-Face and Penguin, is that they are both Crime Lords. And Crime Lords should only be drafted when they have Thugs (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=28629) to bond with or other future bonding or units with Crime Lord synergy. It would really be silly to draft these Crime Lords by themselves without proper supporting cast. So unless all the Thugs are dead, you get the benefit of not having to waste OMs on Crime Lords. You'll always get a chance to activate Two-Face but he won't always get to attack, depending on the d20 roll. Conversely, you may activate Penguin when you may not want to on occasion, but as long as he's in range of an opponent, he'll always get to at least attack that turn.

So Penguin will mess things up on occasion which can be frustrating, but even then, he gets a +2 to his Umbrella Copter move to help compensate for that, for a flying move of 5. It makes it easier for him to pass over an opponent's figure and use his Umbrella Gun Special Attack twice against that figure and he gets an attack of 5 each time. So that's 2 special attacks of 5 for a 120 point figure, that's pretty nasty. Also, being a special attack, it will bypass Counter Strike and other special defenses.

So while his Self Importance certainly will cost you at times, he can also put a hurtin' on opponents too with both his normal turn with an OM, with his free activation from Thugs, and even with his Self-Importance. I mean, 2 special attacks of 5 can be better than the attack the the figure with the original OM had. :) The concern with a guy like Penguin that is hard to cost, is that for his cost, you don't want him have super nasty potential most of the time and be a liability only a small part of the time. Most of the time he's going to get a free activation with Thugs or other bonding type units and he can sneak up on someone and be pretty dangerous. The one thing I noticed with Two-Face is that he often has survivability beyond his stats because he's not usually the focus of the opponent's attacks for much of the game. He's not always reliable to attack, so he can be often overlooked when there are other more powerful heroes to attack or the 4 figure Thug squads that bond with TF. So I'd suspect that this can happen with Penguin too on occasions as opponent's may be distracted by other figures in the opponent's army and they might not mind his Self Importance getting in his team's way. So I can see some, "man I should have attacked Penguin when I had the chance" moments. :D

Anyway, I must get back working around the house, so I'll let Griff give his point of view since he's the lead designer on this and has done plenty of testing with it.

As always GB, thanks for your insight, comments and general 8)ness around here.

[Griffin]

This guy is interesting. Nicely done and very creative abilities. I feel like he could be more of a liability than an asset in a Comic based army. This makes me question his points. Compared to other supers he seems far less effective.

For some official designing Colby and I did a couple of years ago we toyed with liability characters. Very interesting. It wouldn't work with Penguin, but we felt like liability figures could lower the drafting cost of whoever was getting messed up the most from their liability. Say you are designing Andy Griffith and Barney Fief. You could design Andy as a capable 80 point hero with appropriate attacks and stats etc. You then design Barney as a bungling nuisance. If you draft Andy he is 80 points. If you also draft Barney, Andy becomes 70 points.

Anyway, I would lower the Penguin's points based upon his lack of drafting desirability.
That sounds like a lot of fun, and like Whitey said, Bizzaro could be a good figure to do that for.

However, I gotta side with Hahma on the value of the figure, only because I think you may not be aware that because Penguin is a Crimelord, he bonds with our Street Thugs . So they get to bond with Black Mask, Two-Face, or Penguin, and that makes them a bit flexible, albeit liable to the point of damning if those crazy crimelords turn on them. :twisted:
http://www.hiddendragon.com/hs_customs/STREET_THUGS-MINI-C3G.jpg

Also, the potential for a double special attack of 5 can be really sick in any game, but is especially useful in a Super game where there are so many defensive powers that are vulnerable to special attacks.

[Grungebob]

That makes good sense. The bonding does make up the difference. Great job guys seriously.

[IAmBatman]

I think the Crimelords might be just the slightest bit overcosted to compensate for the Thugs possibly coming in a bit cheap. It works out with them all together, though. :-)
Glad you like! Thanks for all the comments.

[Griffin]

Hey A3n, I got a pic for you.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/mrcrimson/heroscape/DSC00833.jpg

[A3n]

...so now I have to ask do we want those $#*% penguins left in on the mini card? As I said else where if I had that figure I would be cutting them off when rebasing.

Cheers

[Griffin]

...so now I have to ask do we want those $#*% penguins left in on the mini card? As I said else where if I had that figure I would be cutting them off when rebasing.

Cheers
Your call brotha. I like em, but I can see how others wouldn't. Lets just use them in the pic, but completely ignore them in the Hitzone. Btw, on the hitzone, be sure to make the umbrellas non-hitzones. That was how I played it and it was awesome trying to use that as a shield, even though I never could pull it off. :lol:

[Griffin]

:bump: Not to sound bratty here, but everyone is getting a card but Penguin. :(

[IAmBatman]

Robin got a card? Did I miss that? :-P

[GreyOwl]

Alright, alright, quit yer belly-achin'! ;) Here are your cards, and I even have PDFs for you.


http://www.hiddendragon.com/hs_customs/PENGUIN-MINI-C3G.jpg
http://www.hiddendragon.com/hs_customs/PENGUIN-C3G.jpg

PDFs:

Penguin (mini) (http://www.hiddendragon.com/hs_customs/C3G/PENGUIN-MINI-C3G.pdf)
Penguin (comic) (http://www.hiddendragon.com/hs_customs/C3G/PENGUIN-C3G.pdf)

[Griffin]

:bowdown: Thank you thank you.

[Griffin]

Everything looks great.

I propose that Penguin be finalized and sent to the On Deck thread.

Yea.

[IAmBatman]

yea!

[whitestuff]

Yea

[A3n]

I think the grey might be a tad light, mainly on the attributes panel (left) where it's stripped with the white lines. Otherwise it has my Yea. I still say the penguins look $$$$ed. :D

Cheers

[Griffin]

I think the grey might be a tad light, mainly on the attributes panel (left) where it's stripped with the white lines. Otherwise it has my Yea. I still say the penguins look $$$$ed. :D

Cheers
Yeah, actually, the gray hitzone is a tad light. Good eyes. :up:

[Hahma]

Is it just me or does the text for the powers look kind of light?

[Griffin]

Is it just me or does the text for the powers look kind of light?
I thought that too when I first saw the card, but I assumed it was an obstacle illusion due to the gray panels, but after A3n noticing the hitzones, I am not so sure. :reapershrug:

[whitestuff]

Is it just me or does the text for the powers look kind of light?

Is it just me or does the text for the powers look kind of light?
I thought that too when I first saw the card, but I assumed it was an obstacle illusion due to the gray panels, but after A3n noticing the hitzones, I am not so sure. :reapershrug:Now I look at it closely, I'd have to agree with you guys. That text is much lighter.

It also is looking a bit small Griff... ;)

[GreyOwl]

I think the grey might be a tad light, mainly on the attributes panel (left) where it's stripped with the white lines. Otherwise it has my Yea. I still say the penguins look $$$$ed. :D

Cheers

I can use a darker gray for the panels.


Yeah, actually, the gray hitzone is a tad light. Good eyes. :up:

That is the exact same gray as all hitzones on other cards.


Is it just me or does the text for the powers look kind of light?

That's the font. We switched to using a different font much closer to the official one several cards back (I think Colossus was the first?). This font looks lighter when the text gets small.

[Griffin]

I think the grey might be a tad light, mainly on the attributes panel (left) where it's stripped with the white lines. Otherwise it has my Yea. I still say the penguins look $$$$ed. :D

Cheers

I can use a darker gray for the panels.

OK.


Yeah, actually, the gray hitzone is a tad light. Good eyes. :up:

That is the exact same gray as all hitzones on other cards.
It doesn't look that way to me.
http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/4/3/8/2/c3g_riddler_mini_original.jpg

http://www.hiddendragon.com/hs_customs/PENGUIN-MINI-C3G.jpg



Is it just me or does the text for the powers look kind of light?

That's the font. We switched to using a different font much closer to the official one several cards back (I think Colossus was the first?). This font looks lighter when the text gets small.
Why do we need to use a font that is less visible just for the sake of mirroring the official cards?

[GreyOwl]

It doesn't look that way to me.

Well, I should say it's the same gray I use on all cards I make. Perhaps A3n and I aren't using the same shade of gray...


Why do we need to use a font that is less visible just for the sake of mirroring the official cards?

Because the font is thinner and allows us to fit more text on the card, which became necessary for some earlier cards that had a lot of text. Some of the alignments didn't look quite right without using the official font. Plus, when we were making the switch A3n and I asked everyone to compare the two, and nobody was interested in doing so and told us to do whatever we wanted.

[Griffin]

It doesn't look that way to me.

Well, I should say it's the same gray I use on all cards I make. Perhaps A3n and I aren't using the same shade of gray...


Why do we need to use a font that is less visible just for the sake of mirroring the official cards?

Because the font is thinner and allows us to fit more text on the card, which became necessary for some earlier cards that had a lot of text. Some of the alignments didn't look quite right without using the official font. Plus, when we were making the switch A3n and I asked everyone to compare the two, and nobody was interested in doing so and told us to do whatever we wanted.
Good enough answers to me. Do you think after hearing the initial and immediate complaints about Penguin's card, that any changes should be made?

[A3n]

It doesn't look that way to me.

Well, I should say it's the same gray I use on all cards I make. Perhaps A3n and I aren't using the same shade of gray...

That's definitely true, I use black. To me the official card text looks black. :shrug:

As for the grey in the hitzone, I didn't pick that up (I was talking about the left stats box). I use true grey (808080) but now that it's been pointed out I realise the official grey in the hitzone is lighter, probably exactly as GO has it.

Cheers

[Hahma]

Even with the text remaining the same font and thinness, is there a way just to make it a little darker?

[A3n]

BTW Griff, can you hit McCrimson with some Ally Points for the photo.

Cheers

[Griffin]

Slightly different gray hitzones, panels, windows, etc. don't mean jack squat to me or about 99% of all scapers, that is something for you elite art geeks to worry about. :p The only thing that I am truly concerned about is eligibility; can the reader easily read the text and use the powers, that needs to be a MAJOR priority. So if that means using black to help our teeny tiny text, then that is what it means.

[Griffin]

BTW Griff, can you hit McCrimson with some Ally Points for the photo.

Cheers
Thank you sir for that, and I had already done it, but I do appreciate you being on top of things. :up:

[GreyOwl]

Good enough answers to me. Do you think after hearing the initial and immediate complaints about Penguin's card, that any changes should be made?

A3n, any suggestions on the font issue? :shrug:

[IAmBatman]

Legibility, Griff, not eligibility. :-P
And I'll leave you guys to sort out the art stuff (which I've always trusted you with and continue to). My yea stands, in the meantime.

[Griffin]

Legibility, Griff, not eligibility. :-P
And I'll leave you guys to sort out the art stuff (which I've always trusted you with and continue to). My yea stands, in the meantime.
Yep, that one. :D

[Hahma]

yea

[GreyOwl]

Cards updated with a darker gray panel.

[A3n]

Good enough answers to me. Do you think after hearing the initial and immediate complaints about Penguin's card, that any changes should be made?

A3n, any suggestions on the font issue? :shrug:

As I said the official cards look black to me & that's what I've been using.

EDIT: Actually here's the comparison since I did do the comic card earlier in this thread...

http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac111/Amas73/Private/C3G/C3G_Penguin_comic.jpg


http://www.hiddendragon.com/hs_customs/PENGUIN-C3G.jpg


Cheers

[GreyOwl]

Good enough answers to me. Do you think after hearing the initial and immediate complaints about Penguin's card, that any changes should be made?

A3n, any suggestions on the font issue? :shrug:

As I said the official cards look black to me & that's what I've been using.


I am using black. I didn't change the color, it just looks lighter (I guess) due to the thinner size of the smaller font.

[A3n]

Good enough answers to me. Do you think after hearing the initial and immediate complaints about Penguin's card, that any changes should be made?

A3n, any suggestions on the font issue? :shrug:

As I said the official cards look black to me & that's what I've been using.


I am using black. I didn't change the color, it just looks lighter (I guess) due to the thinner size of the smaller font.

I thought you said you used a grey. Well I would guess it has to do with the size & probably jpg compression & maybe a little bit of anti-aliasing. All contributors, which should sort itself out on the pdf version.

Cheers

[GreyOwl]

Oh no, I was referring to the grey in the hitzone. I'm going to try a different font (same font, slightly larger) to see if it looks better.

[GreyOwl]

First post updated with new cards and PDFs using the new font...

[Griffin]

The size of the text, the colors, and the overall clarity of A3n's card looks much better to me. Is there anyway we can go with that? GO, I know how you are about resizing text and all, but that card is much easier to read.

[Hahma]

I agree

[GreyOwl]

We can go with A3n's version, but he'll have to remake it. I can't get my fonts to look like that.

[Griffin]

We can go with A3n's version, but he'll have to remake it. I can't get my fonts to look like that.
OK, but why can't you? I thought you guys were 100% identical these days.

[GreyOwl]

He uses Photoshop to make each card manually. That gives him more control over each individual card, but is not as easy to make mass updates (like when we upgrade templates or change fonts across the board). I use Publisher which gives slightly less control on individual cards, but is easy to make mass updates. For some reason, these official fonts are set up in a way slightly different from most fonts, and Publisher can't use all the different variations of it, while Photoshop can. All the previous cards I've done haven't been any different from these, by the way. And while A3n's do look better on the screen, I know when I print mine out they look as good as the official ones (as I'm sure his do, too).

[IAmBatman]

I trust ya. :-)

[GreyOwl]

I'm actually considering converting my template to Adobe InDesign, which might give me the best of both worlds. We'll see, I've never used that before...

[Griffin]

I'm actually considering converting my template to Adobe InDesign, which might give me the best of both worlds. We'll see, I've never used that before...
I don't know too much about your department and all the ins and outs, but it sounds like maybe you should do the everything on each card except the Text, and just send that to A3n to complete. I may take a bit longer to complete cards, but it may be worth it to get the best of the two worlds you are talking about. :reapershrug: :2cents:

[A3n]

I'm actually considering converting my template to Adobe InDesign, which might give me the best of both worlds. We'll see, I've never used that before...

I'd be interested to see you get the merging working how you want it in InDesign. I have tried a few times (admittedly on something a little more complex - Church Calendars) & failed so definitely let me know how you go here.

As far as me doing all the text, that's a bit of an over-kill. I think the worse case scenario is that I do the text for the ones that have a mass amount of text. GO's way works perfectly for 90% of the cards, it's just that when the required size change get's below a certain point publisher doesn't have the finesse that I can achieve by fiddling with the different variables for text. Having said that though GO's still do look great when printed from the PDF. You have to trust that a PDF handles text a hell of a lot, A HELL OF A LOT, better than can be achieved from a JPG image regardless of how fuzzy it looks in the JPG.

Cheers

[Griffin]

I'm actually considering converting my template to Adobe InDesign, which might give me the best of both worlds. We'll see, I've never used that before...

I'd be interested to see you get the merging working how you want it in InDesign. I have tried a few times (admittedly on something a little more complex - Church Calendars) & failed so definitely let me know how you go here.

As far as me doing all the text, that's a bit of an over-kill. I think the worse case scenario is that I do the text for the ones that have a mass amount of text. GO's way works perfectly for 90% of the cards, it's just that when the required size change get's below a certain point publisher doesn't have the finesse that I can achieve by fiddling with the different variables for text. Having said that though GO's still do look great when printed from the PDF. You have to trust that a PDF handles text a hell of a lot, A HELL OF A LOT, better than can be achieved from a JPG image regardless of how fuzzy it looks in the JPG.

Cheers
I trust you guys more than all that, so cool. I am happy with all of the cards current, I just wanted to express my concern about text being to small... something I would never have a chance to do with the official team. :D

[Griffin]

We can go with A3n's version, but he'll have to remake it. I can't get my fonts to look like that.
So A3n, how close are you to having that done?

[GreyOwl]

I don't know too much about your department and all the ins and outs, but it sounds like maybe you should do the everything on each card except the Text, and just send that to A3n to complete. I may take a bit longer to complete cards, but it may be worth it to get the best of the two worlds you are talking about. :reapershrug: :2cents:

That wouldn't get us the best of both, because if I ever had to make a mass update, A3n would have all the cards and not me. But like I said, my version is how I've done all C3G cards since the beginning, and they print out just fine.

[A3n]

& what ever you have done now, seems to have worked anyway. It doesn't look so feint any more.

Cheers.

[GreyOwl]

I changed the font from the 47 Condensed to the 57 Condensed.

[Griffin]

Is it just me (if it is I will back down) but this text looks 10 times better
http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac111/Amas73/Private/C3G/C3G_Penguin_comic.jpg

Than this one
http://www.hiddendragon.com/hs_customs/PENGUIN-MINI-C3G.jpg

[A3n]

Again when printed from the PDF it will look very similar just smaller.

BTW GO that grey is also much better now :up:.

Cheers

[whitestuff]

Is it just me (if it is I will back down) but this text looks 10 times better
http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac111/Amas73/Private/C3G/C3G_Penguin_comic.jpg

Than this one
http://www.hiddendragon.com/hs_customs/PENGUIN-MINI-C3G.jpg
I'll agree with you here Grif. Way back ages ago GO gave me all the files to compile cards his way and I tried it out but I could never shake the nagging thought that, even though it takes longer to do, writing up the text in photoshop looks a heap better IMHO.

[IAmBatman]

I actually think the second one looks a lot "cleaner" and just as dark.

Edit: But I don't care - I just want to get this booster out there! :-D

[Griffin]

Everything looks great.

I propose that Penguin be finalized and sent to the On Deck thread.

Yea.
This proposal passes. Thanks GreyOwl for the hard work and great looking cards. They do look much better now. :up:

[IAmBatman]

So, we're waiting on Necro or Father Time in Robin's thread until the Shadow of the Bat booster is good to go? :-D

[GreyOwl]

I'm actually considering converting my template to Adobe InDesign, which might give me the best of both worlds. We'll see, I've never used that before...

I'd be interested to see you get the merging working how you want it in InDesign. I have tried a few times (admittedly on something a little more complex - Church Calendars) & failed so definitely let me know how you go here.


I'm going to try the Data Merge feature to get data straight from an Excel file where I keep all the data, so we'll see how it works.

By the way, if you guys want to use A3n's version of the card, it won't hurt my feelings. :) I think his text looks slightly more "bold" (though not truly bold). Sometimes that looks a little less official, but personally I think it looks nice.

[IAmBatman]

I prefer whatever's in the first post right now. :-)

[Griffin]

"Official" doesn't mean much to me anymore sadly. So whatever you guys want to do, as long as it looks good, I am OK with.

~ Griff, whose life is no longer compatible :(

[GreyOwl]

"Official" doesn't mean much to me anymore sadly.

Maybe this is a conversation better suited for a PM, but why do you say that?

[IAmBatman]

PM or the wave. :-)

[SirGalahad]

Great desgin Heroes. Sorry I posted the questions in the release thread instead of this one.

Waiting for me to be gone to our game day to release these, tsk, tsk. ;)

[IAmBatman]

lol - if you check the time stamps on things you can tell it pretty much went like this:

1) We wait for Robin to be finalized
2) We scramble to put everything together for the release
3) We release right away

We know you guys have been dying for this stuff. :-)

[Hidicul]

These need to be added to Penguins Synergy Recived under C3G

As a Crime Lord, Penguin may be activated by Street Thugs (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=28629) Crime Lord Bonding special power.
As a Human Hero, Penguin may be healed by Alfred Pennyworth's (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=30311) Field Medic special power.

[Griffin]

Thank you sir. 0.5 points. :D

[Grishnakh]

I just gotta say I love this guy! The Penguin was my favorite character when I was younger. No one did him better than Burgess Meredith on the old Batman TV show.

I do have one small favor to ask you guys. My poor old tired eyes have enough trouble seeing as it is and the text on this card is very small. Any chance it can be enlarged? Thanks!

[IAmBatman]

Have you tried clicking on the picture of the card (should open another window like this: http://www.hiddendragon.com/hs_customs/PENGUIN-MINI-C3G.jpg) and then using the magnify tool on your mouse?

[A3n]

Have you tried clicking on the picture of the card (should open another window like this: http://www.hiddendragon.com/hs_customs/PENGUIN-MINI-C3G.jpg) and then using the magnify tool on your mouse?

That & it's a lot easier to read when printed from the PDF.

[Griffin]

I just gotta say I love this guy! The Penguin was my favorite character when I was younger. No one did him better than Burgess Meredith on the old Batman TV show.

I do have one small favor to ask you guys. My poor old tired eyes have enough trouble seeing as it is and the text on this card is very small. Any chance it can be enlarged? Thanks!
Grish, thanks for bringing that up. That is always a big concern of mine, however, I have found that the PDFs are of MUCH higher quality, and once printed out, they are very visible. I have not printed Penguin out yet, but I have him on my USB thumb drive for printing this week (tomorrow possibly). As soon as I have printed him, I will post back on the quality/clarity. If it is still an issue, we do actually have a plan B for the wording. Thanks again for bringing this up. :D

[GreyOwl]

What's plan B? :shrug:

[Griffin]

What's plan B? :shrug:
A3n's text was larger and easier to read.

[johnny139]

Looking at the card, it should be really easy to squish the lines together - there's a lot of space between each line of text, and with GIMP at the very least, you can decrease the size of the gap. If you do that, upping the text size shouldn't be much of a problem.

And you've got a lot of space down in the Superstrength/Flying area, too, that you could lose. There's a lot of ways to make it more legible (though personally, I can read it just fine).

[Griffin]

First page updated with newer cards and PDFs coming soon. Thank you C3G Art Department.

[Grishnakh]

Thanks guys, that looks so much better!

As I said before, I really appreciate the amount of work that goes into these. Please know that my son (and I) are having some of his friends over this week to play super heros together. Not only does it help introduce comics to kids raised mainly on video games it helps my son socially as well. Gives him a good base of friends when he starts middle school in the fall. Ah, the benefits of Heroscape!

[Griffin]

Thanks guys, that looks so much better!

As I said before, I really appreciate the amount of work that goes into these. Please know that my son (and I) are having some of his friends over this week to play super heros together. Not only does it help introduce comics to kids raised mainly on video games it helps my son socially as well. Gives him a good base of friends when he starts middle school in the fall. Ah, the benefits of Heroscape!
That is great. More and more we keep hearing so many testimonies and stories of C3G bringing people together, and that is soooo very rewarding. I hope that we can continue to do this for a very long time. :D

[Lord Pyre]

Is the PDF coming soon? I wanted to print it out this afternoon. :p

[GreyOwl]

It won't be coming that soon, unfortunately. A3n sent me the PDF to this (and Supergirl) but I won't be able to upload them until we're done moving and I get an Internet connection at our new house. Probably several days more, at least.

[A3n]

Is the PDF coming soon? I wanted to print it out this afternoon. :p

PM me with an email address & I can send the pdf's to you (& anybody else that needs them urgently)

Cheers

[IAmBatman]

Great work, guys! :thumbsup:
And do please be patient with the Art Department while GreyOwl is moving, folks. :-)

[Felindar]

Question. We had Penquin, Street thugs and Harly. When the last Street thug was taken out his player still had 2 OM on them. When he got to turn 2 and 3 normaly the OM would be lost. We knew the crimlord bonding would not do anything because there was no "after there turn" but would we still roll a die-20 to see if penquin's Self important special power kicks in. We roled to see if it would even have been an issue, it was not so we made no desision.

[Hahma]

Hmm....that's a good question Felindar and I believe it should be added to the FAQs.

I would say that you played it right by revealing an OM on the Thugs, even though they were destroyed, you trigger Self-Importance for Penguin.

Even though a unit is destroyed, you wait until your turn to use that OM and then you reveal it, even though the unit is destroyed. So by the way Self-Importance is written, you would roll the d20 for it. IMO.

[Griffin]

Question. We had Penquin, Street thugs and Harly. When the last Street thug was taken out his player still had 2 OM on them. When he got to turn 2 and 3 normaly the OM would be lost. We knew the crimlord bonding would not do anything because there was no "after there turn" but would we still roll a die-20 to see if penquin's Self important special power kicks in. We roled to see if it would even have been an issue, it was not so we made no desision.
An excellent FAQ and you definitely played that one correctly. Hahma is right. :D

[Griffin]

FAQ added.

[Felindar]

Thanks Guys Without insted before or after in the power {like bondings} We were wondering, the Insted in self importantce had me going for no. But it said the turn ends and you must take an imediated turn with penguin so they got no turn either way.

[A3n]

Actually I would disagree here, as the rulebook states:

Life: When a figure has as many Wound Markers as the Life number on its Army Card, it is destroyed. (A figure with only one Life is destroyed by only one wound.) The player who controls the destroyed figure places it on the Army Card. When all figures on an Army Card have been destroyed, the Army Card is out of play. Do not reveal any Order Markers that are on that card for that round of play. On future rounds, you can't take any turns for that card. Any Order Markers still on the Army Card come back into play, and can be placed in future rounds.

This is why we had to state on the Doomsday card that you could use OMs on his card.

Cheers

[Hahma]

Actually I would disagree here, as the rulebook states:

Life: When a figure has as many Wound Markers as the Life number on its Army Card, it is destroyed. (A figure with only one Life is destroyed by only one wound.) The player who controls the destroyed figure places it on the Army Card. When all figures on an Army Card have been destroyed, the Army Card is out of play. Do not reveal any Order Markers that are on that card for that round of play. On future rounds, you can't take any turns for that card. Any Order Markers still on the Army Card come back into play, and can be placed in future rounds.This is why we had to state on the Doomsday card that you could use OMs on his card.

Cheers

Well then I was certainly wrong on that one. I just know how I've been playing it over the years. But of course there hasn't been a power like this one. Also, I guess if you keep all your OM's up, the opponent is still left guessing as to where your next one is going to be used.

I had noticed it on Doomsday's card, and saw how it was written there, but I wasn't part of that design so I didn't know the specifics of why it was like that.

Great find A3n. :thumbsup:

[Griffin]

Actually I would disagree here, as the rulebook states:

Life: When a figure has as many Wound Markers as the Life number on its Army Card, it is destroyed. (A figure with only one Life is destroyed by only one wound.) The player who controls the destroyed figure places it on the Army Card. When all figures on an Army Card have been destroyed, the Army Card is out of play. Do not reveal any Order Markers that are on that card for that round of play. On future rounds, you can't take any turns for that card. Any Order Markers still on the Army Card come back into play, and can be placed in future rounds.This is why we had to state on the Doomsday card that you could use OMs on his card.

Cheers

Well then I was certainly wrong on that one. I just know how I've been playing it over the years. But of course there hasn't been a power like this one. Also, I guess if you keep all your OM's up, the opponent is still left guessing as to where your next one is going to be used.

I had noticed it on Doomsday's card, and saw how it was written there, but I wasn't part of that design so I didn't know the specifics of why it was like that.

Great find A3n. :thumbsup:
Yeah, Hahma's point sounded right, but A3n's is right. I looked up every reference on Order Markers in the Rulebook and FAQs, and if all figures on a card are destroyed, you "lose" that turn, not "reveal" what number it was at the correct time, which is what I am used to doing. For now on, I will be laying those orders face down to signify that they are lost, and I will not be revealing them any longer. Cool stuff. :D

[Griffin]

FAQ updated. Go Team. :D:up:

[Hahma]

I pm'd Felindar so he has the correct answer, just in case he doesn't check back here.

[Griffin]

Thanks.

[IAmBatman]

Thanks for finding that, A3n!

[GreyOwl]

PDFs:

Penguin (mini) (http://www.hiddendragon.com/hs_customs/C3G/C3G_Penguin_mini.pdf)
Penguin (comic) (http://www.hiddendragon.com/hs_customs/C3G/C3G_Penguin_comic.pdf)

[IAmBatman]

PDFs:

Penguin (mini) (http://www.hiddendragon.com/hs_customs/C3G/C3G_Penguin_mini.pdf)
Penguin (comic) (http://www.hiddendragon.com/hs_customs/C3G/C3G_Penguin_comic.pdf)

Thanks! Updating.

[Griffin]

Thank you gentlemen. :up:

[Good Pig]

I'm pretty sure the answer is 'No', but if Street Thugs are bonding with Penguin and he gets the roll for Self Importance does Penguin take 2 turns?

[IAmBatman]

You're correct that the answer is no. The turn the Street Thugs were taking (including the bonding aspect of it with Penguin) ends if you roll 16 or higher and you just take a turn with Penguin instead.
You'd neither be allowed to take the bonding turn with Penguin or take a turn with the Street Thugs you revealed the Order Marker on at that point.

[Griffin]

Good Pig, your hunch and Bats' answer are both right. :up:

[Good Pig]

Penguin killed Superman in my last game. :D

[Lord Pyre]

Penguin killed Superman in my last game. :D

Just the way I like it. :twisted:

[tcglkn]

Just the way I like it. :twisted:

Isn't that what she said? ;)

[IAmBatman]

Hey, you don't get Self-Important for nothing! :-)

[johnny139]

As a note, shouldn't his Special Attack be "Attack 3 + Special" instead of just "Attack 3?"

[SirGalahad]

Probably

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, probably.

[johnny139]

Another Crime Lord update... and I think that's good for today. :D

-Combinations and Synergies-

Synergy Benefits Received


Classic:
N/AMarvel:
N/AC3G:
As a Crime Lord, Penguin may be activated by Street Thugs' (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=28629) Crime Lord Bonding special power.
As a Unique Human Hero, Penguin may be healed by Alfred Pennyworth's (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=30311) Field Medic special power.
As a Crime Lord, Penguin may be activated by Kingpin (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=33766)'s Organized Crime special power.
As a Crime Lord, Penguin rolls 1 additional die when attacking a figure targeted by Hush (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=35869)'s Obsessive Vendetta with a normal attack while taking a turn with the Master Manipulator special power.Synergy Benefits Offered


Classic:
N/AMarvel:
N/AC3G:
As a Human, Penguin allows adjacent friendly Civilians (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=967599) to roll an additional attack and defense die due to their Strength in Numbers special power.
As a Crime Lord, after revealing an Order Marker on and instead of moving with Penguin, you may move up to 3 Bodyguards (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=32127) you control with the Security Detail special power.
As a Crime Lord, after revealing an Order Marker on and instead of attacking with Penguin, you may attack with the Hired Guns (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=32535) with the Trigger Happy special power.

[IAmBatman]

Updated. Glad that's done for today! :-P

[Griffin]

Thanks.

[SirGalahad]

Maybe we have enough in the Criminal Faction for a while. :lol:

[IAmBatman]

It's all of these Batman villains we've been doing ... not many of them that don't fit into the Criminal/Mastermind/Crime Lord categories.

[Griffin]

The criminal faction works well and is balanced, but Mad Hatter is the ONLY one that concerns me.

[johnny139]

And we're good for the day.

-Combinations and Synergies-

Synergy Benefits Received


Classic:
N/AMarvel:
N/AC3G:
As a Crime Lord, Penguin may be activated by Street Thugs' (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=28629) or Killer Penguins (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=36984)' Crime Lord Bonding special power.
As a Unique Human Hero, Penguin may be healed by Alfred Pennyworth's (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=30311) Field Medic special power.
As a Crime Lord, Penguin may be activated by Kingpin (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=33766)'s Organized Crime special power.
As a Crime Lord, Penguin rolls 1 additional die when attacking a figure targeted by Hush (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=35869)'s Obsessive Vendetta with a normal attack while taking a turn with the Master Manipulator special power.
As a Crime Lord, Penguin may by activated by The Hood (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=38192)'s Criminal Ambition special power.Synergy Benefits Offered


Classic:
N/AMarvel:
N/AC3G:
As a Human, Penguin allows adjacent friendly Civilians (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=967599) to roll an additional attack and defense die due to their Strength in Numbers special power.
As a Crime Lord, after revealing an Order Marker on and instead of moving with Penguin, you may move up to 3 Bodyguards (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=32127) you control with the Security Detail special power.
As a Crime Lord, after revealing an Order Marker on and instead of attacking with Penguin, you may attack with the Hired Guns (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=32535) with the Trigger Happy special power.

[tcglkn]

Updating.

[johnny139]

Another Killer Penguin update: just re-use my last post.

[tcglkn]

Updating.

[Yodaking]

As a Crime Lord, Penguin may be chosen as the Intergang Agents (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=40000) Boss. As such, the Intergang Agents (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=40000) may move & attack with an additional Intergang Agent (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=40000) for each revealed Order Marker on this card.