The Book of Bullseye

[GreyOwl]

The Book of Bullseye

C3G MARVEL WAVE 4
FIGHT AGAINST FEAR

http://c3ggames.com/C3G/released/cards/jpg/C3G_Bullseye_comic.jpg


Comic PDF (http://c3ggames.com/C3G/released/cards/pdf/C3G_Bullseye_comic.pdf)


http://c3ggames.com/C3G/released/cards/jpg/C3G_Bullseye_mini.jpg


Mini PDF (http://c3ggames.com/C3G/released/cards/pdf/C3G_Bullseye_mini.pdf)


The figure used for this unit is a Heroclix figure from the Infinity Challenge set.
Its model number and name are #100-102 / Bullseye.

The figure used for this unit is a Heroclix figure from the Universe set.
Its model number and name are #112-114 / Bullseye.
_________________________________________________________________

Character Bio - Very little is known about Bullseye's past. He claims he grew-up in the Bronx and had a brother, along with an abusive father. The only time they shared as a family was shooting air rifles together. Even at a young age, he had perfect accuracy. This was demonstrated when he killed a pigeon by throwing a yo-yo. He and his brother attempted to kill his father at a young age by setting the apartment on fire. They were split up and both were placed in foster homes. While in high school he became a talented pitcher, and was offered a scholarship for college, but instead he joined the minor league baseball. It is possible that he was on his way to be a major league baseball player because of his skills at throwing objects. Because of his perfect pitching record, he became bored and killed a batter who mocked him. This was a watershed even for Bullseye, because he realized how much he enjoyed killing.
_________________________________________________________________


-Rulings and Clarifications-
N/A_________________________________________________________________

-Combinations and Synergies-

Synergy Benefits Received


Classic:
N/AMarvel:
N/AC3G:
As an Assassin Unique Hero, Bullseye may take a turn using the Hand Ninja (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=31371)'s Ninja Assassin Bonding special power.
As a Unique Human Hero, Bullseye may be healed by Alfred Pennywoth (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=30311)'s Field Medic special power.
As an Assassin, Bullseye may take a turn with Kingpin (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=33766)'s Organized Crime special power.
As an Assassin, Bullseye receives movement bonuses from Lady Shiva's (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=38983) Assassin Training special power.
As an Assassin, Bullseye can be moved and deal damage via Ra's al Ghul (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=36101)'s The Demon's Head Special Power.Synergy Benefits Offered


Classic:
N/AMarvel:
N/AC3G:
As a Human, Bullseye allows adjacent friendly Civilians (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=967599) to roll an additional attack and defense die due to their Strength in Numbers special power.
As an Assassin, Bullseye can add 1 to Talia al Ghul's (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=38046) Attack number via her Divided Loyalty special power.________________________________________________________________ _


-Strategy, Tactics and Tips-
N/A-Heroscapers Community Contributions-

Miniature Photos: Hahma (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1129083#post1129083)
Initial Playtest: Hahma (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1113790&postcount=86)
Second Playtest: SirGalahad (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1126533#post1126533)
Third Playtest: Adam Souza (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1129771#post1129771)

[Griffin]

I really like the simplicity of this card GO. Excellent stuff IMO. There are a few little things that I would like to see changed however.

I am fairly certain that he is a Human. Where is the Spider? If the official stuff says it is unknown, like Joker, I think that we should just go with Human. Innocent until proven Mutant. ;)
Precise for his characteristic is a must IMO. It best reflects the card and his powers.
I don't think that he is a life of 5 kinda guy. He is slippery at times, but that is usually due to his ability to keep his distance with ranged attacks.
I think that the range of 7 is perfect.
Defense of 6 is a bit high. I don't see any reason why he would have a higher defense than Punisher or the Warrior Hawkgirl. I think that a defense of 5 is the highest that he should be allowed to go. Are you sure that he has Adamantium skeleton? I have never heard of that before in my life. :confused:
Deadly Aim is cool, but I think that you (the player controlling Bullseye) should be allowed to "you may add or subtract 4 to whatever is rolled". And that is just in case their is a D20 power in the future that allows figures to avoid attacks the lower the roll goes. I know that is not typical, and also discussed in the compendium, but I think it is good to just prepare for the possibility. We are not likely to do that, but you never know, also the official game may end up doing it without our permission. Can you believe the nerve of those guys. :lol: I am not too concerned with wording during this time of our process. We will worry about that later. Though when we do, I believe that there is a Glyph that affects D20 rolls, so that is where we should start looking for wording.

[A3n]

Looking good GO. I would agree with all that Griff has said.

Cheers

[GreyOwl]

1. I think HUMAN is fine. That's how Marvel lists him, too. They just say that some think he might be a mutant.
2. I'm good with Precise
3. Life 5/Defense 6 was for the adamantium. See here, from the official Marvel site:
Later, when following an assignment to kill the Kingpin, Bullseye simply received a better offer from the Kingpin and agreed to work with him, instead. However, after returning from yet another imprisonment by Daredevil, Bullseye was furious that the Kingpin had chosen Elektra as his assassin in the meantime. Bullseye killed her with nothing more than a playing card and her own sai weapon. Earning the enmity of Daredevil, Elektra's lover, Bullseye fought the enraged hero high over the tops of New York City, and Bullseye was allowed to fall to his death by Daredevil. He did not die, however, his spine shattered, paralyzing him. With the help of a Japanese crime lord, Lord Dark Wind, Bullseye's bones were laced with Adamantium in the hopes that Bullseye would freely serve Lord Dark Wind as his head assassin.

4. Your change to the d20 sounds good to me.

[whitestuff]

Looks good but honestly, I'm not feeling the 'precise' nature of Bullseye's skills here...

Sure, his attack is good but precise? I'm not convinced. I think he might be better served with the 1 skull = 2 skulls deal. Or a no defense rolled ability. Maybe even a Braxas like auto-squad kill power? :shrug:

[GreyOwl]

The other reason for the Defense of 6:

Lester is one of the top all-around H2H fighters in the MU. He consistently holds his own against Daredevil, has easily beaten Gambit and has toyed with Elektra, who's arguably the top ninja in the world, on two separate occasions.

Given that he's that good at hand-to-hand, I assumed a Defense of 5, like Batman, then added 1 due to the adamantium skeleton.


As for adding 1 auto skull vs. counting each skull of 2, here's how the probabilities break down. With his attack of 4, assuming an opponent with a Defense of 5:

adding 1 auto-skull: 71% chance of causing at least one wound
each skull counts as 2: 79% chance of causing at least one wound

So all in all, not too different in terms of probabilities, but the doubling of skulls is slightly more powerful. I could personally go either way.

[Griffin]

I hear your points on the Life 5 and defense 6 GreyOwl, and you have convinced me of the defense of 6, but not the life of 5....

[GreyOwl]

Okay, on the Life 5. I started with the assumption that an average superhero human (no powers) is a Life 4. I know that's not always the case, but it was a good approximate starting point. Since Life represents how durable someone is and how much damage they can take before being incapacitated, I added 1 to that due to the adamantium skeleton.

Due to various injuries, many of Bullseye's bones have been reinforced with strips of adamantium, with his spine now entirely composed of the substance. This has increased his resistance to injury in unarmed combat.

From a gameplay perspective, he has a Move of 5 and no special movement powers, so he'll be slow moving around the map, making him an easier target. A higher Life will help balance him out a little.

On another note, I'm wondering if the modification of 4 on the d20 roll is too much, based on this:

Daredevil is a comparatively frustrating target because the superhero's enhanced senses provide enough information to allow him to counter the attacks most of the time.

So according to that, Daredevil can counter Bullseye's skill most of the time. So perhaps the bonus isn't even necessary? :shrug:

[Hahma]

Okay, I've read the comments and did some research on Bullseye before making some observations/comments of my own.

Left box stats are cool to me.

The life/defense debate intrigued me as I was kind of leery of the life of 5 and defense of 6 at first because I wasn't aware of his Adamantium laced bones and spine. These characters advance over the years and sometimes it's hard to keep track of their upgrades. Anyway, I'm fine with the 5/6 deal in that the Adamantium in his bones give him the edge over some of the Vigilante type stats defensively because he's a great martial artist like the Vigilante's tend to be, he wears the kevlar suit that helps and the Adamantium will help vs. blunt trauma from Heavy Hitters as it is quoted as saying that it helps him in unarmed combat. It's not going to help vs. bullet, claws or sword but the kevlar will help. So given other martial artist types having similar suits, the Adamantium will give Bullseye the edge vs. punches from Supes, BC, Grundy etc. Now for the life of 5. Well, considering Bullseye has similar skills as the Vigilante set, he isn't given Counter Strike, Evasive Strike, 1 shield def, agility def, evade, or has a swingline/bat-grapple, superstrength, flying or any other types of defense to demonstrate his skills, I think that a life of 5 is fine. He could be the type that would leap off of height and take a wound if he needed to. He isn't mobile at all with a move of 5 and no other means of getting around either to height or down from height. The life number shouldn't just be Human = 4, so in so = 5, so in so = 6. The rest of the card needs to be taken into consideration IMO and adding an extra life is like putting a power in the base stats instead of in the text space. It's like not putting Defensive Agility or One Shield Defense etc. into his base stats. So I'm fine with both the 5 life and 6 defense considering his move is only 5 and he has no other special defense powers.

The one thing I really have a problem with is him having a range of 7 and use of Deadly Aim with that range. I'm sorry, but his special abilities are to take anything and make them a deadly weapon by throwing them and there is no way he is throwing Stars, pencils, knives, playing cards, baseballs, paper clips, toothpick etc. etc. 7 spaces. That is more like making him an extreme sniper with a rifle and while he is good with guns, his abilities don't make him any better with guns than anyone else, his abilities involve him throwing things. Personally, I'd prefer Deadly Aim to be a special attack, so that the range could be reduced while still allowing him the use of a rifle at 7 spaces and a normal attack of 4 for his martial arts skills. A Deadly Aim from 7 spaces with a defense of 6 isn't ideal for me, especially if Angel carries him to height and he can pluck people with attack of 5 (plus DA) and defense of 7. Not thematic for me as his Adamantium laced bones helps his defense vs. blunt trauma and that means up close, not from so much from range. So I'd prefer him need to be no more than 5 spaces away for Deadly Aim. This would allow opponent's to close in and make that defense of 6 meaningful vs. melee attacks. He's more of an up close and personal guy too. Also, since he is a good martial artist and can use guns, I think that can be represented in his normal attack and that his special ability for turning anything into a deadly thrown weapon should be represented in a special attack. His skills/ability is so great in that regard that it should be able to bypass special defenses that would otherwise make his normal attack less effective.

Okay, that's it from me. :D

[Griffin]

I am now convinced on the life of 5. Thank you GO and Hahma. :thumbsup:

[GreyOwl]

So I guess now we need to settle on:

1. Range
2. add 1 auto skull vs. double all skulls for DEADLY AIM

[Griffin]

I like a range of 6, that feels right to me.

I like Deadly Aim as it is written.

[IAmBatman]

I much prefer the auto skull - that perfectly represents that he never misses, IMO.
I like range of 7 on him, but I agree with Hahma as well. Just make his current power a range 4 or 5 special attack and you're all set, IMO. Though there is something nice about it just being a special power ... if you really want to keep it that way, I say lower his range to 5.
I'm iffy on the 5 life/6 defense combo as well just because I'm not convinced that the Adamantium skeleton version of Bullseye is the most iconic version. I mean, how many of us had heard that about him? Is that really an iconic part of his character? From the snippet you provided it seems that was a fairly recent development in his personality - would we be better served deferring to an older version of the character?
I really like the simple, elegant approach here. :-) Good stuff.
Oh, and maybe the D20 adjustment should be add or subtract 2? That should still be highly effective.

[GreyOwl]

I think Range 7 is perfectly reasonable, because he does use guns from time to time, including sniper rifles. I like the power not being a special attack. It's simpler, and it can be modified for height, which IMO it should.

As for the adamantium skeleton...it's actually nothing new. He had that done shortly after he killed Elektra. The adamantium skeleton is also why he can perform advanced acrobatic maneuvers that normally people can't (because it would fracture their bones), which is how he keeps up with Daredevil. It's been a part of his character for 20 years or more. In fact, I'm wondering if we should bump his move up to 6 because of his ability to perform "superhuman" acrobatics.

I like the auto skull, too. And +/- 2 on the d20 sounds right as well.

[Griffin]

I think Range 7 is perfectly reasonable, because he does use guns from time to time, including sniper rifles. I like the power not being a special attack. It's simpler, and it can be modified for height, which IMO it should.

As for the adamantium skeleton...it's actually nothing new. He had that done shortly after he killed Elektra. The adamantium skeleton is also why he can perform advanced acrobatic maneuvers that normally people can't (because it would fracture their bones), which is how he keeps up with Daredevil. It's been a part of his character for 20 years or more. In fact, I'm wondering if we should bump his move up to 6 because of his ability to perform "superhuman" acrobatics.

I like the auto skull, too. And +/- 2 on the d20 sounds right as well.OK, I am finding myself agreeing with GO on all of those points.

[GreyOwl]

OK, I am finding myself agreeing with GO on all of those points.

Having another kid probably made you soft, don't worry too much about it. :p

[Hahma]

I think Range 7 is perfectly reasonable, because he does use guns from time to time, including sniper rifles. I like the power not being a special attack. It's simpler, and it can be modified for height, which IMO it should.
I like the auto skull, too. And +/- 2 on the d20 sounds right as well.

The only point I was making about the range is that I didn't think his special abilities make him shoot better than any other unit that is proficient with firearms, for him to warrant an auto-skull. There's absolutely no reason for him to ever get closer than 7 spaces. So he'll effectively be a long range sniper until an opponent closes in an engages him.

But whatever, if that's how his character fights in the comics, I'm fine with it. I haven't seen him lately, so I'll defer to the experts.

And the +/-2 for d20 is good too.

[GreyOwl]

I think he actually is a better marksman with firearms due to his hand-eye coordination.

As a result of his naturally perfect athletic gift for hand-eye coordination, Lester can quickly learn how to wield most weapons even if he's never seen them before.

[A3n]

I think Range 7 is perfectly reasonable, because he does use guns from time to time, including sniper rifles. I like the power not being a special attack. It's simpler, and it can be modified for height, which IMO it should.
I like the auto skull, too. And +/- 2 on the d20 sounds right as well.

The only point I was making about the range is that I didn't think his special abilities make him shoot better than any other unit that is proficient with firearms, for him to warrant an auto-skull. There's absolutely no reason for him to ever get closer than 7 spaces. So he'll effectively be a long range sniper until an opponent closes in an engages him.

But whatever, if that's how his character fights in the comics, I'm fine with it. I haven't seen him lately, so I'll defer to the experts.

And the +/-2 for d20 is good too.

I personally don't want to see him as another sniper. I can see a normal range of 7 but his power as a special attack with maybe a range of 4-5. that way there are a lot of special defenses he could avoid just because it is a special attack. Plus it would bring him closer to the fight. I see him as a mid range assassin not a long range sniper. IMPO.

Cheers

[GreyOwl]

I really don't like the idea of his power being a special attack, because I don't think that would be thematically accurate.

What would the range have to drop to for everyone to be satisified with it remaining a special power? Is 6 good enough? 5? :shrug:

[Hahma]

I really don't like the idea of his power being a special attack, because I don't think that would be thematically accurate.

What would the range have to drop to for everyone to be satisified with it remaining a special power? Is 6 good enough? 5? :shrug:


Well can you just keep his normal range at 7 and then in the text for Deadly Aim add a line saying that he subtracts 2 from his range when using Deadly Aim. I don't know how to word it right, but didn't Matt Helm do something like that for his NM24 Thor for the Hammer Throw, or added range in the wording. I don't know.

If you really want to keep it a special power, then that's the direction I'd suggest. I wouldn't want to deny him the range for rifles, but I certainly don't think he should get Deadly Aim with a rifle or be able to throw a pencil or shuriken as far as a rifle can fire a bullet in HS terms. I'd also prefer him not to play like a long range sniper and I think that would fail the Theme test for most people IMO.

That's all I got for now, I have to finish mowing the lawn. :D

[A3n]

I really don't like the idea of his power being a special attack, because I don't think that would be thematically accurate.

What would the range have to drop to for everyone to be satisified with it remaining a special power? Is 6 good enough? 5? :shrug:

I can see your point that making it a Special Attack isn't thematic because it is how he normally attacks but I think any range above 5 isn't thematic for his normal attack either. So if you are dead set on a range of 7 to represent him using guns & riffles I don't think it should be linked to his deadly aim that's all I am trying to say. Maybe drop the range to 4-5 of his normal & give him a special attack with a riffle :shrug:

Cheers

[A3n]

Well can you just keep his normal range at 7 and then in the text for Deadly Aim add a line saying that he subtracts 2 from his range when using Deadly Aim. I don't know how to word it right, but didn't Matt Helm do something like that for his NM24 Thor for the Hammer Throw, or added range in the wording. I don't know.

That's a pretty good way to go. Something like if the chosen figure is within 5 clear sight spaces of Bullseye....

I can get on board with that.

Cheers

[Hahma]

I think he actually is a better marksman with firearms due to his hand-eye coordination.

As a result of his naturally perfect athletic gift for hand-eye coordination, Lester can quickly learn how to wield most weapons even if he's never seen them before.


I didn't read that to mean that his hand-eye coordination makes him a better marksman, I see it as meaning that his hand-eye coordination allows him to pick up a bowling pin, calculator, harmonica, salt shaker, straw, saw blade, knife, sword, pistol or rifle and use it expertly and in a deadly fashion. Sniping with a long-range rifle doesn't require any special hand-eye coordination, it's about having your rifle sighted in for certain ranges and being able to adjust a few clicks up or down to compensate for longer or shorter ranges that it's sighted in at or a few clicks left or right for windage based on how much wind is blowing if any, it's also about controlled breathing and squeezing of the trigger. Now hand eye-coordination would come into affect if the shooter, target or both were moving. So if Bullseye had an attack where he was able shoot during his movement or during an opponent's movement, then I could see his ability helping him. Since something like a long-ranged attack would depend on many variables out of Bullseye's control or too far to see, then I could see Deadly Aim being used with a pistol where he's close enough to see the target and he wouldn't have windage and bullet drop affecting things. Since pistols range are usually 5, then I think we have it covered with the change I suggested. :D


Well can you just keep his normal range at 7 and then in the text for Deadly Aim add a line saying that he subtracts 2 from his range when using Deadly Aim. I don't know how to word it right, but didn't Matt Helm do something like that for his NM24 Thor for the Hammer Throw, or added range in the wording. I don't know.

That's a pretty good way to go. Something like if the chosen figure is within 5 clear sight spaces of Bullseye....

I can get on board with that.

Cheers


Something like this?

DEADLY AIM - When attacking a non-adjacent figure within 5 clear sight spaces of Bullseye, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled. If an opponent rolls the 20-sided die when attacked by Bullseye with a non-adjacent attack, you may add or subtract 4 from the roll.

[A3n]

Something like this?

DEADLY AIM - When attacking a non-adjacent figure within 5 clear sight spaces of Bullseye, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled. If an opponent rolls the 20-sided die when attacked by Bullseye with a non-adjacent attack, you may add or subtract 4 from the roll.

Yep, but the way it's worded does the 20D roll part only apply to the within 5 spaces as well? I'm not 100% sure it can be read that way.

Cheers

[Hahma]

Something like this?

DEADLY AIM - When attacking a non-adjacent figure within 5 clear sight spaces of Bullseye, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled. If an opponent rolls the 20-sided die when attacked by Bullseye with a non-adjacent attack, you may add or subtract 4 from the roll.

Yep, but the way it's worded does the 20D roll part only apply to the within 5 spaces as well? I'm not 100% sure it can be read that way.

Cheers

Well since Deadly Aim is the only power on the card, maybe the d20 part can be in a separate power and cover all his attacks. :shrug:

[GreyOwl]

Rather than complicate it like that, I would rather just drop his Range to 5 and leave his power as is...

[Griffin]

I think he actually is a better marksman with firearms due to his hand-eye coordination.

As a result of his naturally perfect athletic gift for hand-eye coordination, Lester can quickly learn how to wield most weapons even if he's never seen them before.


I didn't read that to mean that his hand-eye coordination makes him a better marksman, I see it as meaning that his hand-eye coordination allows him to pick up a bowling pin, calculator, harmonica, salt shaker, straw, saw blade, knife, sword, pistol or rifle and use it expertly and in a deadly fashion. Sniping with a long-range rifle doesn't require any special hand-eye coordination, it's about having your rifle sighted in for certain ranges and being able to adjust a few clicks up or down to compensate for longer or shorter ranges that it's sighted in at or a few clicks left or right for windage based on how much wind is blowing if any, it's also about controlled breathing and squeezing of the trigger. Now hand eye-coordination would come into affect if the shooter, target or both were moving. So if Bullseye had an attack where he was able shoot during his movement or during an opponent's movement, then I could see his ability helping him. Since something like a long-ranged attack would depend on many variables out of Bullseye's control or too far to see, then I could see Deadly Aim being used with a pistol where he's close enough to see the target and he wouldn't have windage and bullet drop affecting things. Since pistols range are usually 5, then I think we have it covered with the change I suggested. :D


Well can you just keep his normal range at 7 and then in the text for Deadly Aim add a line saying that he subtracts 2 from his range when using Deadly Aim. I don't know how to word it right, but didn't Matt Helm do something like that for his NM24 Thor for the Hammer Throw, or added range in the wording. I don't know.

That's a pretty good way to go. Something like if the chosen figure is within 5 clear sight spaces of Bullseye....

I can get on board with that.

Cheers


Something like this?

DEADLY AIM - When attacking a non-adjacent figure within 5 clear sight spaces of Bullseye, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled. If an opponent rolls the 20-sided die when attacked by Bullseye with a non-adjacent attack, you may add or subtract 4 from the roll.
I think that is an excellent compromise and actually a better solution. It will force the player to make several tactical decisions in a game, and that kinda stuff I love.

That is Me, Hahma, and A3n liking this direction for Deadly Aim with a normal range of 7, and I am hoping that GO will like it as well in time.... :)

[IAmBatman]

DEADLY AIM
When attacking a non-adjacent figure within 5 clear sight spaces of Bullseye, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled. If an opponent within 5 clear sight spaces of Bullseye rolls the 20-sided die when attacked by Bullseye with a non-adjacent attack, you may add or subtract 2 from the roll.

:thumbsup:

[Griffin]

DEADLY AIM
When attacking a non-adjacent figure within 5 clear sight spaces of Bullseye, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled. If an opponent within 5 clear sight spaces of Bullseye rolls the 20-sided die when attacked by Bullseye with a non-adjacent attack, you may add or subtract 2 from the roll.

:thumbsup:
:thumbsup:

[Hahma]

:thumbsup:

[A3n]

:thumbsup:

[IAmBatman]

:-P lol

[GreyOwl]

First post updated. Are we ready for an initial playtest?

[IAmBatman]

I'm fine with it. :-)

[Griffin]

Game on. :D

[A3n]

First post updated. Are we ready for an initial playtest?

Enjoy!

[GreyOwl]

So...anyone do a playtest yet? :)

[IAmBatman]

I think our only active Hero playtesters are mostly focused on the first wave of units still. :-) As you know, I'm out of commission until July.

[Hahma]

So...anyone do a playtest yet? :)

I think our only active Hero playtesters are mostly focused on the first wave of units still. :-) As you know, I'm out of commission until July.


I finished Green Lantern Kyle's second Army Test but still have to add it to the Playtest Sheet. But I'll start Bullseye next and should have him done sometime this weekend.

[IAmBatman]

You're a machine, Hahma. :-P

[Hahma]

Well not quite the machine I once was, but I try to do what I can with all the other crap I have to do around the hizzy. :D

[IAmBatman]

I'll tell you what, though, that Allies Reward program has really helped save this group. :-) If we were still at the stage in our development where three or four of us were doing every bit of the playtesting, we'd be in big trouble.

[Griffin]

I will run BE as soon as I am done with some last minute tests with Alfred, or unless Hahma gets to it first. :)

[IAmBatman]

You guys are champs. If I can come back strong in July, I think we'll be in a real good place. :-)

[Griffin]

You guys are champs. If I can come back strong in July, I think we'll be in a real good place. :-)
I don't know, you may be a bit weak in the knees. ;)

[IAmBatman]

lol ... Cardio?

[Hahma]

I just posted second army tests for GL Kyle, so I should be able to get started on Bullseye tonight. :D

[NecroBlade]

DEADLY AIM - When attacking a non-adjacent figure within 5 clear sight spaces of Bullseye, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled. If a non-adjacent opponent within 5 clear sight spaces of Bullseye rolls the 20-sided die when attacked by Bullseye with a non-adjacent attack, you may add or subtract 2 from the roll.

[GreyOwl]

Even simpler. I knew I could count on you! :)

[IAmBatman]

Simple is as simple ... wait, what? :-D I mean, good one, Necro!

[A3n]

DEADLY AIM - When attacking a non-adjacent figure within 5 clear sight spaces of Bullseye, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled. If a non-adjacent opponent within 5 clear sight spaces of Bullseye rolls the 20-sided die when attacked by Bullseye, you may add or subtract 2 from the roll.

Does that mean the person sitting next to you can't be within 5 spaces of Bullseye to roll the 20D :p.

What about:
DEADLY AIM
When attacking a non-adjacent figure within 5 clear sight spaces of Bullseye, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled. If an opponents non-adjacent figure within 5 clear sight spaces of Bullseye rolls the 20-sided die when attacked by Bullseye, you may add or subtract 2 from the roll.

Cheers

[GreyOwl]

I like the way you're thinking, but that also makes it sound like the figure is rolling the d20, not the opponent. Hmm....need something better that combines the two, I think.

[A3n]

I like the way you're thinking, but that also makes it sound like the figure is rolling the d20, not the opponent. Hmm....need something better that combines the two, I think.

True that, what about:
DEADLY AIM
When attacking a non-adjacent figure within 5 clear sight spaces of Bullseye, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled. If an opponent rolls the 20-sided die for a figure attacked by Bullseye that is non-adjacent and within 5 clear sight spaces of Bullseye, you may add or subtract 2 from the roll.

Cheers

[GreyOwl]

I'm going with that in the first post, unless someone comes up with something better.

[IAmBatman]

Looks good ... but shouldn't it be "add 2 to or subtract 2 from the roll"? (Though we could probably take the add part out completely, couldn't we?).

[A3n]

Looks good ... but shouldn't it be "add 2 to or subtract 2 from the roll"? (Though we could probably take the add part out completely, couldn't we?).

Griffin wanted it in for future proofing.

[IAmBatman]

I'm confused ... what do you mean by that?

[A3n]

Here:
I really like the simplicity of this card GO. Excellent stuff IMO. There are a few little things that I would like to see changed however.

I am fairly certain that he is a Human. Where is the Spider? If the official stuff says it is unknown, like Joker, I think that we should just go with Human. Innocent until proven Mutant. ;)
Precise for his characteristic is a must IMO. It best reflects the card and his powers.
I don't think that he is a life of 5 kinda guy. He is slippery at times, but that is usually due to his ability to keep his distance with ranged attacks.
I think that the range of 7 is perfect.
Defense of 6 is a bit high. I don't see any reason why he would have a higher defense than Punisher or the Warrior Hawkgirl. I think that a defense of 5 is the highest that he should be allowed to go. Are you sure that he has Adamantium skeleton? I have never heard of that before in my life. :confused:
Deadly Aim is cool, but I think that you (the player controlling Bullseye) should be allowed to "you may add or subtract 4 to whatever is rolled". And that is just in case their is a D20 power in the future that allows figures to avoid attacks the lower the roll goes. I know that is not typical, and also discussed in the compendium, but I think it is good to just prepare for the possibility. We are not likely to do that, but you never know, also the official game may end up doing it without our permission. Can you believe the nerve of those guys. :lol: I am not too concerned with wording during this time of our process. We will worry about that later. Though when we do, I believe that there is a Glyph that affects D20 rolls, so that is where we should start looking for wording.

[IAmBatman]

I think I'd be OK with the thought that those guys just fell outside of Bullseye's range of experience or had the upper hand on him. Everyone has his counters. And the wording just flows so much more nicely with it taken out.
I'd prefer it out, personally.

[Griffin]

I like what Griffin said, but I usually do. :lol:

[GreyOwl]

I think I'd be OK with the thought that those guys just fell outside of Bullseye's range of experience or had the upper hand on him. Everyone has his counters. And the wording just flows so much more nicely with it taken out.
I'd prefer it out, personally.

I tend to agree (which is why I originally wrote it without the "add" wording).

[IAmBatman]

Well, barring a vote, it's your show to run.

[GreyOwl]

I thought more people agreed with him back when it came up. But if that's not the case, I'm perfectly happy to drop that portion.

[IAmBatman]

Griff and I just tend to have the "loudest voices" in the room ... because we do the most talking. :-P
Sometimes it's hard to tell who agrees or disagrees with what we say because people mostly don't comment unless it's something they're majorly passionate about.
Not saying that's good or bad, but it is what it is.

[A3n]

I would vote it out, & I would always vote to have negative effects on low d20 rolls & positive effects on the high D20 rolls.

Cheers

[GreyOwl]

First post updated.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Man, Bullseye is looking SWEET!!! I was really concerned while reading the first page and first couple posts, but I love all the collaboration and compromise to make this a really cool, simple unit! Oh and very thematic!

[Hahma]

I'm at my sister's house after scaping with my brother in-law and nephew and she let me get on her internet for a couple minutes before I head home to no internet (still no phone service/internet:x).

Anyway, I have Bullseye's complete test done and have it all on Word at home to cut/paste here when I get my internet back. So I just wantedt to let you all know that it's done and nobody needs to mess with it.

BTW, he's easily 180 from what what I've seen. Some good luck here and there, but I'd say that 180 is a good starting point. His defense and Deadly Aim have been pretty good for me.

[GreyOwl]

180 sounds about perfect, puts him right with Daredevil. :)

[Hahma]

180 sounds about perfect, puts him right with Daredevil. :)


Yeah and he beat DD 3 out of 5 matches. When Radar Sense isn't working well, Bullseye tears DD up.

[GreyOwl]

That sounds exactly like how it should be! Thanks, Hahma!

[Hahma]

That sounds exactly like how it should be! Thanks, Hahma!

No problem GreyOwl.

To go along with the 3-2 vs. Daredevil, he also went

1-1 vs. Batman (When ES wasn't working, it wasn't good for Bats)
1-1 vs. Black Canary (If she got to engage, he was in trouble)
2-2 vs. Punisher (Punisher did better when getting to engage)
0-2 vs. SOTM Drake (Thorian Speed is a great counter for Bulleye)


For Squad test vs. Stingers X 3

Stingers won with 4 of the 9 surviving and with 1 killing itself from a failed drain. So that would mean he killed 4 of the 9 before getting killed. Not bad for a single attack unit, he did kill one with every attack he had but when they were able to engage, it made it harder for him.

For the two army tests, his teams won both times and pretty handily. But there were some circumstances that contributed to that, between army builds and luck.

[GreyOwl]

I think we can trust Hahma's word on the playtest results without waiting for him to get his Internet connection back, and go ahead and start the clock for ERB submission on this one. Unless someone disagrees?

[Hahma]

I think he's fine for ERB. They'll likely squawk about his defense and maybe life, but we've been through that.

That defense does certainly help him, but like Iron Man and Minions of Utgar, I've seen those defenses beaten. In fact, I saw some Minions defenses beaten last night. :D

Once thing I will say, is that there is no way he could have had Deadly Aim at 7 space range, he'd be ridiculously deadly and not feel right thematically to me. It's also good that it only works on non-adjacent figures, this allowed for him being less deadly when engaged and give him the choice of leaving engagement to use Deadly Aim, oh and he did that to perfection throughout playtesting. I believe he left engagement maybe 6 or 7 times and never took a wound. And just an FYI, the d20 +/- 2 never came into effect. The d20 defenses were either well high enough or low enough.

[Griffin]

Consider this a preemptive Yea for the ERB. Thanks Hahma. :)

[Spidey'tilIDie]

This too is a pre-emptive Yep.

[A3n]

Consider this a preemptive Yea for the ERB. Thanks Hahma. :)

Here, here!

[IAmBatman]

Another preemptive yea!

[whitestuff]

A big recovering Yea.

[GreyOwl]

Welcome back, whitestuff! Feeling better?

By the way, who's next in the ERB rotation?

[whitestuff]

Welcome back, whitestuff! Feeling better?Better? Feels like I've been smacked in the gut with a sledgehammer... :(

I'm hoping better appears soon...

[IAmBatman]

Welcome back, whitestuff! Feeling better?

By the way, who's next in the ERB rotation?

Whoever's after whomever Spidey just sent to?

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Welcome back, whitestuff! Feeling better?

By the way, who's next in the ERB rotation?

Whoever's after whomever Spidey just sent to?
Actually, I just sent to the same guys who saw Green Construct as previously discussed. They may have been next or not. So I would go back to whoever went last before Kyle.

[GreyOwl]

Where's the list again? I get lost in all the threads...:)

[Hahma]

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT Bullseye @ 180 points

C3G CHECK LIST FEEDBACK FORM
- Theme/ Does it pass. Pass (can certainly be a hero killer)
- Mirror/ Does it pass,. Pass
- Bonding/ Does it pass. Pass
- Synergy/ Does it pass?. Pass
- Power/ Does it pass?,. Pass
- Fun Test/ Does it pass? Pass
- Fun Competitive Test/ Does it pass? Pass
- Drafting Test/ Does it pass? Pass
- Usage Test/ Does it pass? Pass
- Strategy Test/Does it pass? Pass
C3G PLAY TEST FEEDBACK FORM
(Be sure to list what official units you used and what BoV map you used per section below.)
-
Heavy Hitter/ Does it pass? Pass but feels closer to 190 points than 180 at this time.

Played on Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh map.

Vs. Drake SOTM (170) -
1. Drake wins with 3 wounds on T4R3.
2. Drake wins with 4 wounds on T1R3.

Drake can’t be hit by Bullseye when not engaged so Deadly Aim couldn’t be used. He relied on normal attack, his defense and lives to do as well as he did. Had he won initiative in second match, he may have won, so that one could have gone either way.

Vs. Punisher (180)
1.Bullseye wins with 0 wounds on T2R2
2.Bullseye wins with 1 wound on T4R2.
3.Punisher wins with 2 wounds on T2R2.
4.Punisher wins with 2 wounds on T6R2
Punisher tried to use his ranged attacks in the first two games and didn’t roll very good for his Rocket or AR against Bullseye’s good defense, whereas Bulleye rolled huge with Deadly Aim. Punisher rolled better in game 3 and decided to close in and engage Bullseye in game 4 and it helped.

Vs. Daredevil (180)
1.Bullseye wins with 1 wound on T5R1
2.Daredevil wins with 0 wounds on T1R2
3.Bullseye wins with 0 wounds on T5R1
4.Bullseye wins with 3 wounds on T3R2
5.Daredevil wins with 3 wounds on T6R1.
When DD was able to roll his Radar Sense well, he did good, when he couldn’t, Bullseye was able to take him out easily enough with Deadly Aim. None of DD’s Radar Sense rolls were affected by the +/- 2 from DA.

Vs. Black Canary (190)
1.Black Canary wins with 2 wounds on R2T3.
2.Bullseye wins with 3 wounds on T2R2.
Black Canary won the first game after engaging and rolling a 5 skull attack and finished him off with FOF 2 skull attack. With DA range of 5, she was able to close in and get engaged to use her melee skills, but was also able to use CC on her way there.

Vs. Batman (200)
1.Batman wins with 2 wounds on T2R2.
2.Bullseye wins with 0 wounds on T4R1.
In game 1, Bullseye took 2 wounds from Batman’s Evasive Strike and that bypasses good defense. In game 2, Bullseye had taken his first shot at 7 spaces from Bats with normal attack to avoid ES and put 2 wounds on him. He then demolished him when he had height for his second attack, this time with Deadly Aim. Bats missed his ES roll and it would have really helped him when Bullsye rolled 5 skulls + 1 auto for a 6 skull attack vs. only 1 shield. It was more than enough since Bats already had 2 wounds.

Ultimately, when opponent’s with d20 defenses miss their roll to evade, they are in big trouble vs. Bullesye as he rarely rolls bad with Deadly Aim. I had some good luck with him both with attack and defense rolls, so that is worth noting. Also, he left engagement 4 or 5 times total in these tests in order to use DA and never took a leaving engagement wound. That’s pretty lucky for him and is why that life of 5 is nice for him to be able to risk LE attacks once or twice in a game.

Squad/ Does it pass? To be done Pass
Played on Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh map

Punisher (180) vs. Stingers x 3 (180)

4 of 9 Stingers live to take victory on T6R2. Once he got engaged by more than one Stinger, he had to rely on defense and normal attack. He had killed 1 with each attack and 1 Stinger had died from a failed drain.


Army Test 1/ Does it pass?. Pass

Played on Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh map

Bullseye (180) Punisher (180) Captain America (220) and Kaemon Awa (120) for 700 points

Vs.

Daredevil (180) Batman (200) Drake SOTM (170) and Venom (150) for 700 points.

R1 – Cap moves out. Drake moves out. Kaemon Awa moves but can’t attack Drake with normal attack. Daredevil moves out. Punisher moves out. Venom moves out.

R2 – Cap moves to height and attacks with Shield Throw but misses Drake and DD evades with RS. Drake grapples to height adjacent to Cap and attacks him for 1 wound. Kaemon Awa moves adjacent to Cap but 2 levels lower and attacks Drake with double special attack, but Drake swats them away with his sword. Daredevil is fearless and moves adjacent to Cap and Kaemon Awa and puts 2 wounds on Cap but takes 2 wounds from Kaemon Awa’s Counter Strike. Punisher takes 1 wound from passing swipe as he moves past Drake get adjacent to Cap, but then he puts 3 wounds on Drake with a 4 skull Rocket attack. Venom could have joined the mass of humanity battling on hill 403, but chooses instead to go after Bullesye in his starting zone and misses with a Web attack.

R3 – Drake puts 1 more wound on Cap (4). Punisher missed Drake with his Rocket attack this time. Venom Swings to an adjacent space with height vs. Bullseye but his feeble 2 skull attack is easy stopped by Bulleye’s adamantium laced bones. Bullseyeleaves engagement from Venom and takes no wound as he gets to same level and attacks with Deadly Aim for a 4/1 attack for 3 wounds after Venom failed Spider Sense roll. Venom moves back into engagement with Bullseye but is still reeling from his wounds and only rolls 1 skull that is easily blocked by Bullseye. Bulleye ( or Luckyeye) leaves engagement again for no wound and puts Venom down with a DA attack of 5 skulls vs. 1 shield after Venom fails SS again.

R4 – Drake puts final wound on Cap. Punisher gets revenge with a 3/0 Rocket attack to put Drake down. Batman moves and puts 1 wound on Kaemon Awa with his Batarang. Punisher moves to a 2 level height that is 7 spaces from Batman to attack with AR and avoid ES. He has a 3/0, 2/3 and 2/1 attack to be just enough to take down the poor defense rolling Batman. Bats is dead so they miss a turn. Kaemon Awa moves to same level as DD and attacks twice with Quick Release but whiffs the first attack and DD defends the second one after rolling 5 for RS.

R5 – Kaemon Awa tries again to take care of DD, but this time RS kicks in on the first attack and DD moves out of LOS for KA’s second attack. DD moves to height and throws his club at Punisher for 1 wound. Punisher attacks DD with height with Rocket but whiffs the attack. DD moves away and toward Bullseye who has no OM. Punisher moves back to height and attacks DD with AR with a 4/2 attack after DD rolls a 1 for RS, putting final 2 wounds on DD.

Bullseye with 0 wounds, Punisher with 2 wounds, and Kaemon Awa with 1 wound survive to win on T5R5.

D20 defenses failed miserably for DD and Venom and Venom’s attacks were pitiful. Obviously the D20 defenses weren’t enough to get past the strong ranged attacks of Bulleye’s team. Perhaps if DD’s team had some range on their side, it would have been different for sure and if Venom had tried to target Punisher instead of Bullseye, things could have turned out differently as well. Bullseye had some luck once again with LE attacks and not taking any wounds in order to use his very Deadly Aim. His defense held up, though wasn’t really tested vs. Venom’s poor attack rolls. The strategy in this game was to get the opponent’s figures engaged and distracted and then come in with Bullseye to pick them off, but that wasn’t necessary as Punisher was extremely effective, but that was mostly because the opponent didn’t have good ranged units or flyers to close in and engage him. Also, DD’s team got focused for awhile on attacking Cap because he offered KA and Punisher better attack and defense while they were engaged, so he bravely absorbed much of the abuse. One other lack of luck for DD’s team was when he took 2 wounds from Kaemon Awa’s Counter Strike. That mad him easy to kill later with only a 2 wound attack.

Army Test 2/ Does it pass?. Pass

Played on Platform 5 and 6 map.

Bullseye (180) Angel (90) and GL Hal (350) for 620 points.

Vs.

Sentinels x 3 (480) and Phantom Knights x 2 (140) for 620 points.

R1 – Angel flies up to top ladder rung on central structure and places Bullseye on adjacent space. Phantom Knights move onto shadow spaces near tracks and SZ. Bullseye moves a couple spaces to target a Phantom Knight but the 3 skull attack is blocked. Sentinel Purple has Sentinel Tan fly up to platform and out of reach of Bullseye. GL moves onto CS and adjacent to Bullseye. Sentinel Purple has Sentinel White move.

R2 – Sentinel Purple has Sentinel White fly up to Central Structure and adjacent to Bullseye and puts 2 wounds on him with a 3/1 attack. Angel uses Guardian Angel to get Bullesye unengaged from Sentinel. GL moves adjacent to Sentinel and puts 3 wounds on it but misses Fearless Charge roll. Sentinel Purple has Sentinel White move adjacent to Angel, GL and Bullseye attack GL to put 1 wound on him with a 1/0 attack. (it was a tough choice as to who to attack. Bullseye had 2w already, Angel would have allowed other Sentinels to move with Mutant Alert and getting a wound or Battery Marker off of GL would be huge too). Angel doesn’t waste time to use Guardian Angel to move GL as GL was right where he wanted to be for the next turn and finishes off the Sentinel with a 4/1 attack. Phantom Knights fly up to CS and get 1 on top ladder rung unable to fight, but the other 2 can attack GL but after a 2/3 attack from the first PK, Angel used GA to move GL away to avoid second attack. Bullseye had a tough choice, engage a PK and get a 4 attack vs. 4 defense or stay 2 spaces away and get a 4 attack +1 auto skull vs. 7 defense. He chose the latter and rolled total of 4 skulls, but crazily enough, the PK rolled 4 shields to block.

R3 – Phantom Knights move adjacent to Bullseye , GL and Angel. The first one misses Angel, second one misses GL but third one puts 2 wounds (4) on Bullseye with a 2/0 attack. GL kills a Phantom Knight but misses FC again. Sentinel Purple has Sentinel Tan move one space to edge of platform where he can barely reach Angel and Bullseye. It can get free move for Sentinel Purple by attacking Angel, but since Bullseye has only 1 life left and is more dangerous offensively, it attacks Bullseye who has height and kills him with a 3/0 attack. (Bullesye having some bad luck this game). GL kills another Phantom Knight on the CS rooftop. Sentinel Purple has Sentinel Tan move off platform and adjacent to CS at ground level. Bullseye’s dead so no turn.

R4 – GL moves to edge of rooftop and kills Sentinel Tan below with a 5/1 attack. (Sent Tan would have moved to rooftop and had a nice attack vs. GL had he won initiative). Sentinel Purple can only move himself onto platform. GL moves and destroys Sentinel Purple with a 6/2 attack. Sentinel Purple dead, no turn. GL kills a Phantom Knight adjacent to Angel with a 5/4 attack. Sentinel Purple is dead, so no turn.

R5 – GL moves to platform but misses attack on Phantom Knight. 3 PK’s move to attack GL but he blocks all their feeble attacks. GL kills a PK but misses with FC. PK’s attack and manage 1 more wound (2) on GL. GL kills another PK and hits FC this time but misses attack vs. PK and then misses FC. PK misses GL.

R6 – GL misses PK and then failed FC roll. PK misses GL. GL kills last PK with a 4/0 attack.

GL with 2 wounds and 4 Battery Markers and Angel with 0 wounds survive to win on T3R6.

Bullseye didn’t really have much affect in this game other than being a distracting target for the opponent, much like Cap was in Army Test 1. He rolled terrible defense and that led to his early demise as he rolled only 1 shield vs. a 3 skull attack and then whiffed vs. 2 skull and 3 skull attacks to get killed. That was pretty unlikely, especially the last whiff when he had 7 defense dice for height. Angel would make a great teammate for Bullseye as he only needed 1st OM of game to get Bullseye up to rooftop of Central Structure and was able to maneuver both GL and Bullseye around somewhat with Guardian Angel. Being a key point on the map and having limited space, Angel couldn’t really move them around as much as he could on many other maps. But he would be really huge in getting Bullseye wherever he needed to go to take advantage of his normal ranged attack or DA and then stick around to protect him somewhat with GA, of course Bullseye can’t whiff as much on defense or Angel isn’t much help. GL was the hero of this game with some massive attack rolls that took Sentinels out in one shot. He had some poor defense rolls to take his only wounds and not have to burn BM’s. Had Sentinels won initiative for round 4, one of them would have gotten same level adjacent to GL and maybe given him need to use BM or at least the Sentinel may have lived longer on same level.

Fun game, but lack of mobility and range hurt the Sentinels. Normally their defense can carry them somewhat to the fight but with a 350 point powerhouse like GL rolling huge attack rolls, they didn’t stand much of a chance. Phantom Knights didn’t really have the firepower to match GL’s and they were easy targets once engaged to him.

While Bullseye felt worth a little more than 180 in HH tests, he felt a little better for the squad test and army tests at 180. He had s bit of luck on his side with many leaving engagements to use DA and never taking a wound for them. He survived some pitiful attacks by Venom, while Venom couldn’t do the same with poor d20 rolls for SS. His team did have a slight edge because of range in Army Test 1 and opponent had d20 defenses to rely on that failed them. In Army Test 2, Bullseye’s luck ran out as he rolled very poor defense rolls, but at the same time, he helped his team by being a main target for a while and that freed up GL to do his thing. Had Bullseye rolled normally for defense, it might have been even a worse beating for Sentinels and Phantom Knights, as they simply didn’t have the range or HH factor to deal with GL.

[GreyOwl]

First ERB response:

Looks good, GreyOwl. My only comments are that Deadly Aim might be better split into two separate powers for the sake of clarity. Also, you may want to have it read "may add or subtract 2 from the roll" so that you have some wiggle room when it comes to future C3G customs.

Other than that, awesome card. The ballpark cost of 180 is fine; I could see 170, but you'll have to test that one out.

-Sherman Davies

[A3n]

First ERB response:

Looks good, GreyOwl. My only comments are that Deadly Aim might be better split into two separate powers for the sake of clarity. Also, you may want to have it read "may add or subtract 2 from the roll" so that you have some wiggle room when it comes to future C3G customs.

Other than that, awesome card. The ballpark cost of 180 is fine; I could see 170, but you'll have to test that one out.

-Sherman Davies

That's funny, I bet Griff paid him to say that. :p

[Griffin]

First ERB response:

Looks good, GreyOwl. My only comments are that Deadly Aim might be better split into two separate powers for the sake of clarity. Also, you may want to have it read "may add or subtract 2 from the roll" so that you have some wiggle room when it comes to future C3G customs.

Other than that, awesome card. The ballpark cost of 180 is fine; I could see 170, but you'll have to test that one out.

-Sherman Davies

That's funny, I bet Griff paid him to say that. :p
:lol: I can't hold it back.... "I told you so" :p

Nah, I didn't pay him, and it is just a personal preference thing that I don't think really helps or hurts the design much at all either way.

[GreyOwl]

Second ERB response:

I'd tone him down a hair. 5/5/7/5/6 seems a little much for him. He's tough, but he's still in the Spiderman/Daredevil 100-150 point range, IMO. I struggle with this myself, but its good to get out of the 200 +/- 30 range.

Mainly, I'd consider dropping his damage and bumping his range to 9. In Heroscape Accuracy isn't really represented by the attack stat, even though that stat determines whether or not you "miss". When a character is marked as an accurate shot, they're given more range than normal. I think the idea is that in Heroscape, range isn't something that determines how far a projectile will actually travel, but how far that figure can launch the projectile accurately.

Otherwise solid representation of the character.

[Hahma]

Well the official Spiderman is 160 and our DD is 180 (though Eclipse doesn't know that I suppose) so his ranges are off, at least in the comps that we choose to go by.

I think that many people aren't aware of Bullseye having Adamantium laced bones, so some of the stats might appear odd. Especially his defense of 6 and life of 5. But like we discussed previously, the high defense is a way to put in base stats both his fighting ability and his extra stoutness vs. blunt impacts because of his bones. So instead of giving him some extra power to show that, both his defense and life are bumped up for that. Also, IMO, the extra life adds for playability for getting more use out of Deadly Aim by being more likely to disengage to use it.

While I understand that some of the accuracy is shown with range, but I think Bullseye is most known, at least as far as I know, as using his shuriken or some odd things he has at hand to kill people. I don't see how using a range of 9 to base his great accuracy can work when most of the time he's throwing things. I mean, Syvarris, DED and Green Arrow are at range 9 or 10 with bows and a rifle. They are supposed to be super accurate too, so they have the combination of long range for both their accuracy and their weapons. I don't know that it translates exactly as Eclipse suggests for Bullseye when compared to those others I mentioned. I also don't know how thematic it would be for Bullseye to sit back and play sniper the same as DED, Syvarris or Green Arrow. The one thing that was nice about the extra life that he had was that it made it easier and more thematic (for me anyway) to disengage to be able to use Deadly Aim and have the extra life to do it. For while he is capable in melee, he's best when he's killing people with toothpicks, paper clips or paper airplanes. :D

[GreyOwl]

So does anyone see anything they'd like to change as a result of the ERB? If not, I'll wait 24 hours and then propose we move to playtesting.

[Griffin]

So does anyone see anything they'd like to change as a result of the ERB? If not, I'll wait 24 hours and then propose we move to playtesting.
I really hate to go back to this but his defense is reflecting a power that most people are just not familiar with, and that means that it is not Iconic enough to pass a theme check for most people, and that even includes comic fans.... I think the defense has to come down a bit IMO, and reflect the iconic version that most of us are use to. I am thinking Defense of 5 at the most.

[Hahma]

So does anyone see anything they'd like to change as a result of the ERB? If not, I'll wait 24 hours and then propose we move to playtesting.
I really hate to go back to this but his defense is reflecting a power that most people are just not familiar with, and that means that it is not Iconic enough to pass a theme check for most people, and that even includes comic fans.... I think the defense has to come down a bit IMO, and reflect the iconic version that most of us are use to. I am thinking Defense of 5 at the most.

I wouldn't be opposed to that only because like Griff said, for a fairly known character, I don't know how many people even know about his adamantium laced bones, I mean, that's one of the first things after the claws that you think of when you think of Wolverine, but not Bullseye. A life of 5 and defense of 5 can still give him nice base stats. I think that if he's played well, he should do quite well with those stats because not only does he have a decent normal attack with a range of 7, but he becomes really deadly from 2-5 spaces away and that can really help keep him alive. If there was anything would have put him higher price-wise than Daredevil, it would have been the defense. He played slightly higher than 180 in the HH tests, with the exception of vs. Drake, but there aren't too many figures with Thorian Speed to thwart Deadly Aim. In the army tests, his teams did much better than opponents, so his points could have maybe been higher for those too, though I did have some luck for him during testing.

I don't know that he has to be exactly the same point-wise as DD but 170-180 should be fine for him if his defense were lowered to 5.

We'll have to see what others think.

[NecroBlade]

Plus our Wolverine is only a 4D/6L to Bullseye's 6/5...doesn't make a lot of sense when you think about it.

[GreyOwl]

Plus our Wolverine is only a 4D/6L to Bullseye's 6/5...doesn't make a lot of sense when you think about it.


That's because Wolverine has a healing factor. Bullseye has no such thing, nor does he have any defensive powers.

I'm not sure what to say about the fact that people may not be familiar with Bullseye having an adamantium skeleton. I mean, they're not very familiar with the character if they're not familiar with that - it's been around for 20-25 years. Plus it's really his only "power" besides his throwing skills. I understand focusing on the most iconic powers to avoid 7-8 powers on a card, but this guy doesn't have any other powers we have to make room for.

I think there will be plenty of relatively unknown and Indy characters we make where people won't be familiar with their powers. Should we not use those powers, too? Heck, I'm not familiar with most of the DC figures being chosen as it is.:confused:

[Hahma]

Well I guess if people aren't familiar with him that much, then that really shouldn't take away from the character, especially if he's had that adamantium skeleton for that long.


I see GO's point regarding powers not always having to be that familiar. I mean, I'm sure not many people are familiar with Viper or even less with Baron von Strucker that I'm going to do and they both have powers/stats that they should have regardless of how familiar people are with them.

So I guess I'm back to GO's side on this one. :shrug:

[Griffin]

Well I guess if people aren't familiar with him that much, then that really shouldn't take away from the character, especially if he's had that adamantium skeleton for that long.


I see GO's point regarding powers not always having to be that familiar. I mean, I'm sure not many people are familiar with Viper or even less with Baron von Strucker that I'm going to do and they both have powers/stats that they should have regardless of how familiar people are with them.

So I guess I'm back to GO's side on this one. :shrug:
The only thing I can say against that is that people are not very familiar with the characters BvS and Viper, so their powers are clearly going to be somewhat unfamiliar. However, in Bullseye's case, he is a character that most comic fans are familiar with, but that Adamantium Skeleton is not something that is very well known.
If the C3G Heroes that are Marvel fans speak up now and say "yes, I am familiar with that power, and it should be on the card." then we have something to work with. Otherwise, I think that it is so obscure, that if we put it on his card, most everyone will be like "what? why the heck does he have a Defense that is equal to Martian Man Hunter".... or something like that.

[Hahma]

Well for me, I'm a comic fan that has only just gotten back into it after collecting in the late 80's, so for me personally, there are probably a lot of upgrades and such that wasn't around in my 80's books that I have still. The newer ones that I've gotten don't have Bullseye, so I'm only familiar with him in 80's style. That goes for Batman too for that matter, he's changed quite a bit in the last 20 + years to become to super badass that he is, but his power level back then is nowhere near where we put it now.

See, I guess people that have been following the Marvel comics over the past 20 years would likely be very familiar with the new and improved Bullseye. :shrug:

[GreyOwl]

It all comes down to how familiar someone is with a character, and it doesn't make sense to me to try and please someone that's not that familiar with a character in order to match their incorrect expectations.

For example, back when we did Martian Manhunter, several of us were not aware he was a telepath, or at least not a powerful one. But upon further research, it turned out that he actually was a powerful telepath so therefore it made perfect sense to represent that on the card. It wasn't relevant that some of us happened to be unaware of that fact.

[Griffin]

It all comes down to how familiar someone is with a character, and it doesn't make sense to me to try and please someone that's not that familiar with a character in order to match their incorrect expectations.

For example, back when we did Martian Manhunter, several of us were not aware he was a telepath, or at least not a powerful one. But upon further research, it turned out that he actually was a powerful telepath so therefore it made perfect sense to represent that on the card. It wasn't relevant that some of us happened to be unaware of that fact.
And just like in that situation, my opinion was that the people who were not familiar with the character should listen to those who were. And that is what I have said for this one, If the Marvel fans know about the power and believe that it is iconic enough to put on the card, then we should do it.

[Hahma]

As a similar example, I would never have thought that Robin would be anywhere close to Spiderman, DD, Punisher, Jean Grey, etc level, not by a longshot and even 30-50 points close to them. From what I know of him, he's a little skinny teenage kid that has some decent moves. Now that Bats and others have informed me that he's pretty badass now in today's comics (as compared to when I remember him), then I have to take his word that Robin is pretty tough. Believe me, I've commented on how I didn't see how there could be all these different Robins and all of them are going to be badass levels, but comics and characters have changed over the years and it seems like they've all had to evolve in some way or another.

I think that it is key to use design notes to let people know where the designer is coming from and inform the uninformed as to some of the powers and abilities that some or many people may not be aware of. Believe me, when I do BVS next, there will be much in the design notes to show where I'm coming from because he is an unfamiliar character to most (I only recently have become familiar through some new comics and much research), so I'll have to sell the stats/powers to illustrate that he should have them.

It's kind of harder with a somewhat familiar character because people have preconceived ideas of their power level and abilities, but as can often be the case, those perceptions can come from comics from 20 years ago, television shows or movies but not the current comics for that character that the lead designer is basing his design on.

Perhaps further notes or whatever can be established in the books of to help inform people of the basis of the character so that it doesn't look like so in so is just getting a C3G beefed up card or whatever. Personally, I feel that if SOTM Drake comes in at 170, I don't see how there's a problem with some mainstream heroes being in that range.

[GreyOwl]

Exactly, Hahma. Just like we can (and are) doing different versions of the same character like Superman or Spider-Man, this is the version of Bullseye that has the adamantium skeleton. :)

[Griffin]

Exactly, Hahma. Just like we can (and are) doing different versions of the same character like Superman or Spider-Man, this is the version of Bullseye that has the adamantium skeleton. :)
That is certainly one way to justify it, my only concern however still remains; how clearly will the Defense of 6 communicate to the player that it is a reflection of skill and Adamantium in his spine? Sometimes it is OK and easy to put powers into the stats, but sometimes you need some power text to communicate clearly. Could we talk about moving the power away from the stats and into a special power?

[GreyOwl]

How about making his Defense 5 and adding this power:

ADAMANTIUM SKELETON - Bullseye always adds 1 to his Defense.

:p

Seriously though, I just don't see the need to make it a power. At the end of the day, we're still talking about making the nuances of the character clear to people that aren't familiar with the character. They can either 1) take the time to become familiar or 2) not worry about why he has a Defense of 6, in my opinion. If someone complains that they don't get why, yet aren't familiar with the character, why should we care?

[A3n]

Even with an Adamantium Skeleton I'm not sure a defence of 6 is justified. Having said that if Adamantium is in his Skeleton then it's part of his standard & normal defence & not a separate power that could be stripped from him from say a Lasso of Truth.

My personal preference is just a normal Defence of 5 & no power.

Cheers

[Griffin]

Even with an Adamantium Skeleton I'm not sure a defence of 6 is justified. Having said that if Adamantium is in his Skeleton then it's part of his standard & normal defence & not a separate power that could be stripped from him from say a Lasso of Truth.

My personal preference is just a normal Defence of 5 & no power.

Cheers
I am curious as to how that philosophy stacks up to units like Colossus, Hulk, Abomination, Iron Man, etc., because they all have great defense stats that are reflections of a power or ability. Many times powers are placed into the normal stats, including defense.

[Griffin]

How about making his Defense 5 and adding this power:

ADAMANTIUM SKELETON - Bullseye always adds 1 to his Defense.

:p:rofl:

Seriously though, I just don't see the need to make it a power. At the end of the day, we're still talking about making the nuances of the character clear to people that aren't familiar with the character. They can either 1) take the time to become familiar or 2) not worry about why he has a Defense of 6, in my opinion. If someone complains that they don't get why, yet aren't familiar with the character, why should we care?No, I am talking about the fact that putting the power in his stats is not enough flavor to sell the theme.... and IMO that is a problem.

[A3n]

Even with an Adamantium Skeleton I'm not sure a defence of 6 is justified. Having said that if Adamantium is in his Skeleton then it's part of his standard & normal defence & not a separate power that could be stripped from him from say a Lasso of Truth.

My personal preference is just a normal Defence of 5 & no power.

Cheers
I am curious as to how that philosophy stacks up to units like Colossus, Hulk, Abomination, Iron Man, etc., because they all have great defense stats that are reflections of a power or ability. Many times powers are placed into the normal stats, including defense.

I don't disagree with adding powers into base stats for convenience but I disagree with taking an ingrain defensive quality out of the base stats to make it a separate power.

Cheers

[Griffin]

Even with an Adamantium Skeleton I'm not sure a defence of 6 is justified. Having said that if Adamantium is in his Skeleton then it's part of his standard & normal defence & not a separate power that could be stripped from him from say a Lasso of Truth.

My personal preference is just a normal Defence of 5 & no power.

Cheers
I am curious as to how that philosophy stacks up to units like Colossus, Hulk, Abomination, Iron Man, etc., because they all have great defense stats that are reflections of a power or ability. Many times powers are placed into the normal stats, including defense.

I don't disagree with adding powers into base stats for convenience but I disagree with taking an ingrain defensive quality out of the base stats to make it a separate power.

CheersBut we are not taking anything out, because it was never there.... nothing is set in stone, especially after an ERB review ;). I don't think any of us should ever ever ever turn our noses up at the idea of taking powers that are merely base numbers, and transforming them into fun thematic special powers.... that is what we do.
In this case, it seems that the Adamantium Spine is iconic enough with the fans that it belongs on the card, the problem is determining where to put it, on the power side or on the base stats side. My point is simple, if we incorporate it into the base stat side alone, it is probably not going to be enough to sell or communicate the theme of him having an Adamantium Spine. If it were just a matter of him being tough, or a good blocker, or armor like Iron Man, I don't think that would be a problem for people to quickly understand, but someone please tell me how anyone is going to comprehend that he has a metal spine just by reading the number 6 next to the word Defense....

[NecroBlade]

I'm with Grif on the 'theme' not coming across, and also still think simply changing him to 5D/5L would not only avoid a lot of "huh??" moments but also leave him with pretty reasonable survivability still.

[GreyOwl]

Keep in mind, it's not just due to his adamantium skeleton. That skeleton allows him to perform advanced acrobatics to dodge attacks that normal humans couldn't perform due to the stress it causes on their bones. So the 6 could represent that instead of, or in addition to, the adamantium skeleton.

He's also an exceptional martial artist and has fought the best martial artists in the Marvel universe to a draw (such as Elektra and Iron Fist). That could be another justification for the 6.

Basically I arrived at it by starting with 5, which I got via comparison to Batman, a nonpowered hero at the peak of fitness and martial arts skill. Then I added 1 to accomodate the adamantium skeleton along with the advanced acrobatics that allow him to dodge attacks.

[A3n]

But we are not taking anything out, because it was never there.... nothing is set in stone, especially after an ERB review ;). I don't think any of us should ever ever ever turn our noses up at the idea of taking powers that are merely base numbers, and transforming them into fun thematic special powers.... that is what we do.
In this case, it seems that the Adamantium Spine is iconic enough with the fans that it belongs on the card, the problem is determining where to put it, on the power side or on the base stats side. My point is simple, if we incorporate it into the base stat side alone, it is probably not going to be enough to sell or communicate the theme of him having an Adamantium Spine. If it were just a matter of him being tough, or a good blocker, or armor like Iron Man, I don't think that would be a problem for people to quickly understand, but someone please tell me how anyone is going to comprehend that he has a metal spine just by reading the number 6 next to the word Defense....
I was just stating that I don't think Adamantium Skeleton should be a separate power. I think it should be built into the base stats as it is part of what he is & not a separate ability that can turned off or on. Having said that, being a part of him & has been for quite some time, if people aren't familiar with the character they can read about it in the Bio (which I will now push GO to include something about the Adamantium there :poke:) or wiki. - Hey I didn't recall Red Skull having Dust-Of-Death but hey I read about it on Wiki.

I think most people's perception of Bullseye will be from the Daredevil movie which portrayed him fine but did not go into any real character development for him. So if people think they know a character from one movie then seriously it's not our fault they don't truly know the character. But we should put the onus on ourselves to portrait the character as true as we can whether it is obvious in the stats or not.
I'm with Grif on the 'theme' not coming across, and also still think simply changing him to 5D/5L would not only avoid a lot of "huh??" moments but also leave him with pretty reasonable survivability still.

After what I said above though I still completely agree with you. I don't think the 6 defence is justified & would be happier if it was just 5.

Cheers

[Griffin]

I would also be happier with a defense of 5, because at that point it won't matter if anyone is familiar with the A-Skeleton, because a normal defense of 5 for a skilled fighter is much easier to digest.

[GreyOwl]

Well if we make his Defense 5 without giving him another power, then there's definitely no reason to mention adamantium in the bio, because it won't be represented anywhere on the card anyway.

[GreyOwl]

I would also be happier with a defense of 5, because at that point it won't matter if anyone is familiar with the A-Skeleton, because a normal defense of 5 for a skilled fighter is much easier to digest.

But you guys keep missing the point that he isn't just a normal skilled fighter. Did you miss my explanation a few posts up?

[Griffin]

Well if we make his Defense 5 without giving him another power, then there's definitely no reason to mention adamantium in the bio, because it won't be represented anywhere on the card anyway.
That is really a matter of personal interpretation though. You can't definitively state all the different aspects that are summed up in a Defense value.... like with Batman, there could be more than just skill justifying his defense of 5, there could also be Armor, or his sneakyness, or his big cape hiding his body the way the Samurai's Pants hide their foot work.

[A3n]

Well if we make his Defense 5 without giving him another power, then there's definitely no reason to mention adamantium in the bio, because it won't be represented anywhere on the card anyway.
That is really a matter of personal interpretation though. You can't definitively state all the different aspects that are summed up in a Defense value.... like with Batman, there could be more than just skill justifying his defense of 5, there could also be Armor, or his sneakyness, or his big cape hiding his body the way the Samurai's Pants hide their foot work.

I agree & I think this is where we can start power creeping if we aren't wary in our comparisons. So if you are using Batman as your base then stripping 1 dice off his defense for trickyness, cunning, him being the dark knight & the worlds best detective will give you 4 for his superior combat & martial arts training. So now you say Bullseye is the same level martial arts skills or maybe slightly better but would you say it really is worth 1 whole dice better? Now take into account his Adamantium skeleton does this really add to his defense? I personally think it would make him harder to kill so give him an extra life maybe 2. So I really don't see him as a 6 defense character. I could stretch to 5 & 5 life.

Cheers

[GreyOwl]

Now take into account his Adamantium skeleton does this really add to his defense?

Actully, yes it does. As I stated before, it allows him to perform advanced acrobatics to avoid attacks. He's harder to hit than an unpowered human in peak condition, because the adamantium allows him to do things nobody else can. It's not just a matter of being more durable. Plus, based on Hahma's playtest, he played exactly like he should have thematically, so he wasn't overpowered.

I'm pretty sure when we did Batman, the 5 didn't include armor, stealth, or any of those other things. If it did, he'd have a higher defense. All of those things would easily add up to something higher. I really doubt we would've have represented superior martial arts skill as a 4...

But if everyone wants 5, we'll do 5. Or add a defensive power, I don't mind. I can always make myself an alternate version, it wouldn't be the first time.;)

[Griffin]

Now take into account his Adamantium skeleton does this really add to his defense?

Actully, yes it does. As I stated before, it allows him to perform advanced acrobatics to avoid attacks. He's harder to hit than an unpowered human in peak condition, because the adamantium allows him to do things nobody else can. It's not just a matter of being more durable. Plus, based on Hahma's playtest, he played exactly like he should have thematically, so he wasn't overpowered.

I'm pretty sure when we did Batman, the 5 didn't include armor, stealth, or any of those other things. If it did, he'd have a higher defense. All of those things would easily add up to something higher. I really doubt we would've have represented superior martial arts skill as a 4...

But if everyone wants 5, we'll do 5. Or add a defensive power, I don't mind. I can always make myself an alternate version, it wouldn't be the first time.;)
I don't think there is a clear C3G answer right now, I think we are pretty well divided actually. I think the loudest voices in the room have made their points, and it is now time for a 48 hour poll and Bats' vote is abstained per his request to not have anyone vote for him.

Which option do you prefer?

A - Give Bullseye a Defense of 6

B - Give Bullseye a Defense of 5

C - Give Bullseye a Defense of 6 with a special power reflecting his Adamantium Skeleton

D - Give Bullseye a Defense of 5 with a special power reflecting his Adamantium Skeleton

[Griffin]

I believe that I have been educated on Bullseye and I now see that his Adamantium Skeleton is a big part of who he is and it belongs on the card. However, I don't think it is well known enough or clear enough to place that power into his stats, and it deserves some attention as a Special Power. I also believe that his skills as a fighter puts him at a defense of 5 without the skeleton.

I vote for option D.

I am changing my vote back to B. My brothers have reminded me that though he has an Adamantium Skeleton, it isn't something that hardly anyone knows about... even our own comic fans, and that says a lot. Also, according to Marvel, it isn't something that was ever explained, and most characters don't know about it or have forgotten.

[NecroBlade]

B. Wolverine doesn't even have a power reflecting his Adamantium skeleton. (And I had now idea about the adamantium until here.)

[A3n]

B - I do believe that 4 defence is a highly trained martial arts skilled combatant or a low powered super hero strength. So even adding 1 for the adamantium would only still be 5 that & the 5 life.

[whitestuff]

I vote B as well. If it wasn't for the discussion here, I wouldn't have known about his adamantium skeleton...

[Griffin]

Once again I am persuaded to change my mind back to my original point of view. Heck I am the one who drummed this whole thing up... I am sooo unbalanced. Anyways, I changed my vote. :)

[A3n]

Once again I am persuaded to change my mind back to my original point of view. Heck I am the one who drummed this whole thing up... I am sooo unbalanced. Anyways, I changed my vote. :)

That has nothing to do with my reasoning. I still think it is iconic I just believe that not many people have ever taken the time to know the character enough & have built there own personal opinion of him, which I think happens alot with the bad guys as there storylines obviously aren't followed & appear as scattered tid-bits throughout the careers of our heroes.

Cheers

[Hahma]

Goodness gracious....goodness gracious, you guys are killing me. :poorpost: :D


I vote D and here's why.

First of all, who's this Batman character and why is he the only one being used as a comp? He's got a defense of 5, but he also has Evasive Strike to help account for his other defensive nuances and believe me, it has saved his bacon on many times from 5 spaces and closer. Not only that, but it dishes out a wound back to the attacker. Not only that, but it works against every kind of attack and is unprecedented in that way by working against both adjacent and non-adjacent figures as well as working against both normal and special attacks.

Secondly, what about Daredevil, Huntress and Black Canary? They have defense of 5 based on their superior martial arts skills and athleticism and none of them are wearing any special kind of armor that Bullseye wouldn't be donning. DD has his Radar Sense to account for that special ability. So without the adamantium laced bones and spine, Bullseye can be at the same level defensively as these others listed IMO. Also, regarding Wolverine, his healing factor and his Berserker Rage kind of dictated what his defense should be and I believe the majority of heroes didn't want to give him superstrength to represent his adamantium skeleton. If his defense was at 6, he'd be nearly impossible to kill because of his healing power and it could have put him up there in the mid to upper 300 point level and people didn't want that. Add to that, for gameplay purposes, he needs to have 1 or 2 wounds on his card for Berserker Rage to kick in and if he had a defense of 6, he wouldn't take wounds as often and they wouldn't last when he did get them because of his healing power. If I had thought of it back then, I might have suggested adding a fourth power, this one below that I would recommend for Bullseye.

Give Bullseye a defense of 5 and add this power

ADAMANTIUM REINFORCEMENT
If Bullesye is attacked by an adjacent figure with a normal attack, add 1 to his defense.

IMO this would do it for me thematically. It would still allow for penetrating ranged weapons to hurt him as his adamantium wouldn't help him there too much, and it would allow for special attacks to affect him because his adamantium reinforced bones and agility shouldn't help him against Canary Cry, Telepathic Blast, Deep Freeze etc.

By making the extra defense die kick in for adjacent attacks, it can more easily show how he'd absorb punches and kicks better from the likes of Black Canary or Superman or Hulk or whatever as it says in Marvel Universe character bio,

" Several of Bullseye's bones have been reinforced with strips of Adamantium, and his spine is now entirely made of it, effectively increasing his resistance to injury in unarmed combat."

It also mentions about his range of motion being helped for his acrobatic moves, but I'd say the defense of 5 would cover that on a full time basis.

One other thing that is exceptional about this power idea (if I do say so myself), is that previously, he was at a distinct disadvantage while fighting an adjacent figure because he couldn't use Deadly Aim and would have to disengage to use it. Now with Adamantium Reinforcement, he would have more of a choice (and I do love choices), where he can either risk disengagement to use Deadly Aim, or stay engaged and use his normal attack, but have a better defense vs. normal attacks. This would especially help him vs. squad figures that engage him because they don't have special attacks and he should be able stay engaged and kick their ass.

For those not familiar with his adamantium reinforced bones, it will plainly be laid out on the card now and if people don't believe it, they can google Bullseye and find out for themselves. If they are too lazy or don't care to do that minimal amount of research and complain about him having that power, then tough sh!t.

~Hahma addressing the courtroom, "So in conclusion fine Heroes of C3G, I find that I've plainly laid out my case for Bullseye to have a defense of 5 and an appropriate special power to account for his adamantium reinforced bones vs. normal adjacent attacks. It is now up to the jury to decide."

[GreyOwl]

The comparison to Wolverine is not a valid one, I think. In addition to the points that Hahma laid out (his defense was dictated by the desire to keep his point cost low, not on thematic reasons), Wolverine has more iconic powers that had to be represented - claws and healing. Also, Wolverine doesn't use his adamantium skeleton to perform inhuman acrobatics to avoid attacks. He doesn't have to, because he can heal. Bullseye doesn't use his adamantium skeleton to be tough and take hits, he uses it for inhuman acrobatics to get out of the way. Completely different things.

I hope that those of you voting B will remain consistent in the future, especially when we do obscure figures, and agree to not include powers that the majority of us have never heard of (even if they're iconic). Even some of the more common DC figures like all the Lanterns, I bet there are several here that are not familiar with their powers...

[A3n]

The comparison to Wolverine is not a valid one, I think. In addition to the points that Hahma laid out (his defense was dictated by the desire to keep his point cost low, not on thematic reasons), Wolverine has more iconic powers that had to be represented - claws and healing. Also, Wolverine doesn't use his adamantium skeleton to perform inhuman acrobatics to avoid attacks. He doesn't have to, because he can heal. Bullseye doesn't use his adamantium skeleton to be tough and take hits, he uses it for inhuman acrobatics to get out of the way. Completely different things.

I hope that those of you voting B will remain consistent in the future, especially when we do obscure figures, and agree to not include powers that the majority of us have never heard of (even if they're iconic). Even some of the more common DC figures like all the Lanterns, I bet there are several here that are not familiar with their powers...

As I have maintained that wasn't my argument & as for the other 5 defense characters; Black Canary I don't think she should have been 5 but I wasn't part of it back then. Huntress I didn't know so I was guided by everyone else, & Daredevil we were arguing over offence so much that the defence didn't seem too important.

Cheers

[Hahma]

I hope that those of you voting B will remain consistent in the future, especially when we do obscure figures, and agree to not include powers that the majority of us have never heard of (even if they're iconic). Even some of the more common DC figures like all the Lanterns, I bet there are several here that are not familiar with their powers...

I agree with this as to being consistent. Penguin for instance, not to pick on any one figure (really it's not), but one that is current and seems relevant in a way to this discussion, has a power to be able to fly over a figure with one umbrella and be able to attack with the other. While I don't claim to be familiar with Penguin other than the movies and animated series that he's in, have never seen him carry multiple umbrellas (not that I recall anyway) and attack with an umbrella gun while flying over. Add to that, I've never seen him or know how thematic or iconic it is for him to fly around the battlefield on a regular basis and attack while flying. I've seen him use his umbrella copter to mostly get away from Batman. Otherwise I've seen him shoot with it or use it to shoot gas or something.

We can look at Catwoman and wonder why she has 9 lives (other than as a gimmick) or why her Whip is an attack of 4 and why can she keep attacking with it? From what I've seen of her, she has never whipped the crap out of anyone, especially a character like Darkseid, Superman or the Hulk.

We can look at Alfred too as Necro pointed out, does he always have a shotgun? Does everyone know that he uses a shotgun on occasion? Should he be able to use it regularly instead of once per round or game? For gameplay purposes, it really won't likely need to be restricted to a certain number of uses, as he really shouldn't survive long enough to use it more than a couple times and who's going to put an OM on him more than they have to when there are others to put them on.

Look at Beast, I didn't know that it would be iconic or thematic for him to Negotiate with Darkseid or Hulk? Usually when he's doing any kind of negotiating, it's like at a Senate hearing or something like that and he's in a suit, not in the middle of a battle. I've used it on occasion and while risky, it's fun when it works.

I know nothing of Count Vertigo, so I trust those that were involved in designing him used iconic and thematic sources for his powers. Though he is neat to play.

I don't know how iconic or thematic it is for Hawkgirl to get to choose between adding to her normal attack or getting 2 attacks when Swooping against a figure 4 spaces or more. It's fun though.

For Lex Luthor, how many people know that he can control Superman or any other Kryptonian that easily? Rolling a 6 or higher is pretty easy to be able to control Supes, Doomsday or Supergirl.

Can Arkillo really Eviscerate Superman or Hulk that easily? I don't know, but it seems fun for gameplay purposes.

Edit: The problem as I see it, is that we've already set a certain standard and comparisons in the C3G universe that kind of make it harder now to back track and say, "well, so in so in their peak 2010 form shouldn't be like this or that, they should be in their 1980's form." Well, I kind of think it started with Batman and Joker in a way being priced and powered as they are, based on how badass they've become more recently. Back in the 70's and 80's, they weren't represented nearly as badass as they are now. So it seems that when we make customs, we are kind of using them (and a few official Marvelscape figures) as a measuring stick for what we compare new customs to. Heck, the Robin I've grown up familiar with was nowhere near Spiderman level, yet we're going to do one or more based on how badass they are in current comic lore.

So I guess when someone is a lead designer for a custom, they make the determination of which era of the character that they want to represent and as a group we either agree with it or not, but then we have to live with our decisions and if we go against a lead designers wishes in what era to use to represent that character, it can come back to bite someone if they are lead designer and their unit gets voted to be represented differently than they desire.

[Hahma]

The comparison to Wolverine is not a valid one, I think. In addition to the points that Hahma laid out (his defense was dictated by the desire to keep his point cost low, not on thematic reasons), Wolverine has more iconic powers that had to be represented - claws and healing. Also, Wolverine doesn't use his adamantium skeleton to perform inhuman acrobatics to avoid attacks. He doesn't have to, because he can heal. Bullseye doesn't use his adamantium skeleton to be tough and take hits, he uses it for inhuman acrobatics to get out of the way. Completely different things.



Well if this is the case GO, then instead of my suggested defensive power, maybe he should have some kind of agility defense power. Maybe Def of 4 with Shields of Valor or 1 Shield defense or something. I think when we get into defenses of 6 or higher, that's an area I would think represents different degrees of invulnerability and not so much agility after defense of 5. That's just my thoughts.

[Griffin]

I hope that those of you voting B will remain consistent in the future, especially when we do obscure figures, and agree to not include powers that the majority of us have never heard of (even if they're iconic). Even some of the more common DC figures like all the Lanterns, I bet there are several here that are not familiar with their powers...

I agree with this as to being consistent. Penguin for instance, not to pick on any one figure (really it's not), but one that is current and seems relevant in a way to this discussion, has a power to be able to fly over a figure with one umbrella and be able to attack with the other. While I don't claim to be familiar with Penguin other than the movies and animated series that he's in, have never seen him carry multiple umbrellas (not that I recall anyway) and attack with an umbrella gun while flying over. Add to that, I've never seen him or know how thematic or iconic it is for him to fly around the battlefield on a regular basis and attack while flying. I've seen him use his umbrella copter to mostly get away from Batman. Otherwise I've seen him shoot with it or use it to shoot gas or something.

We can look at Catwoman and wonder why she has 9 lives (other than as a gimmick) or why her Whip is an attack of 4 and why can she keep attacking with it? From what I've seen of her, she has never whipped the crap out of anyone, especially a character like Darkseid, Superman or the Hulk.

We can look at Alfred too as Necro pointed out, does he always have a shotgun? Does everyone know that he uses a shotgun on occasion? Should he be able to use it regularly instead of once per round or game? For gameplay purposes, it really won't likely need to be restricted to a certain number of uses, as he really shouldn't survive long enough to use it more than a couple times and who's going to put an OM on him more than they have to when there are others to put them on.

Look at Beast, I didn't know that it would be iconic or thematic for him to Negotiate with Darkseid or Hulk? Usually when he's doing any kind of negotiating, it's like at a Senate hearing or something like that and he's in a suit, not in the middle of a battle. I've used it on occasion and while risky, it's fun when it works.

I know nothing of Count Vertigo, so I trust those that were involved in designing him used iconic and thematic sources for his powers. Though he is neat to play.

I don't know how iconic or thematic it is for Hawkgirl to get to choose between adding to her normal attack or getting 2 attacks when Swooping against a figure 4 spaces or more. It's fun though.

For Lex Luthor, how many people know that he can control Superman or any other Kryptonian that easily? Rolling a 6 or higher is pretty easy to be able to control Supes, Doomsday or Supergirl.

Can Arkillo really Eviscerate Superman or Hulk that easily? I don't know, but it seems fun for gameplay purposes.

Edit: The problem as I see it, is that we've already set a certain standard and comparisons in the C3G universe that kind of make it harder now to back track and say, "well, so in so in their peak 2010 form shouldn't be like this or that, they should be in their 1980's form." Well, I kind of think it started with Batman and Joker in a way being priced and powered as they are, based on how badass they've become more recently. Back in the 70's and 80's, they weren't represented nearly as badass as they are now. So it seems that when we make customs, we are kind of using them (and a few official Marvelscape figures) as a measuring stick for what we compare new customs to. Heck, the Robin I've grown up familiar with was nowhere near Spiderman level, yet we're going to do one or more based on how badass they are in current comic lore.

So I guess when someone is a lead designer for a custom, they make the determination of which era of the character that they want to represent and as a group we either agree with it or not, but then we have to live with our decisions and if we go against a lead designers wishes in what era to use to represent that character, it can come back to bite someone if they are lead designer and their unit gets voted to be represented differently than they desire.
Those are very long winded opinions and perceptions of our current powers, but I am failing to see the point as to why we should go with any available option.... What exactly is the point? :reapershrug:
Is the moral of the story really to not try and influence the LD because they may do the same to you, like a type of custom karma? That doesn't seem like the spirit of C3G to me....

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I choose option E: Defense of 4 and SPecial Defense Power of an auto shield and here is my reasoning. Bullseye is a character who will take a wound just to get the killshot on his opponent, especially at range. For instance when he fought both Daken and Hawkeye in the recent Dark Reign storyline, he allowed both to tag him in order to deliver a worse blow. In Hawkeye's case he avoided major wounds because he countered by shooting Bullseye's arrow out of the air. With Daken, he took an arrow thrown in the thigh to shoot Daken through the neck, which would have killed anyone not related to Wolverine. So, I think a lower defense at range, plus 4 plus auto shield is essentially the same number of shields as 5 plus roll and extra. I think if he took a ranged wound, maybe he could get an additional boost to Deadly Aim to represent this theme.

[GreyOwl]

I'm not sure a Defense of 6 necessarily implies invulnerability of some level. In HS mechanics, Defense is not only how hard someone is to damage, but also how hard they are to hit. For someone like Superman a high Defense usually represents how hard he is to damage. In the case of Bullseye, it would be how hard he is to hit. Captain America has a Defense of 6, and if we assume 1 of those points is the shield, he'd have a 5 without it. Bullseye is much more acrobatic than Cap. Cap is somewhat better at hand-to-hand, but the extra acrobatics plus the adamantium skeleton easily counts for 1 point of Defense, in my mind.

[Hahma]

Those are very long winded opinions and perceptions of our current powers, but I am failing to see the point as to why we should go with any available option.... What exactly is the point? :reapershrug:
Is the moral of the story really to not try and influence the LD because they may do the same to you, like a type of custom karma? That doesn't seem like the spirit of C3G to me....

I guess the point was to show that just because people aren't familiar with a character, it hasn't stopped C3G from doing powers/stats for them that felt right to the ones most familiar with the character. The thing with people not being familiar with Bullseye's adamantium spine and whatever wouldn't have stopped C3G from trying to incorporate it before (or I guess it wouldn't). :shrug:

No that's not the moral of the story. I probably expressed myself wrong and apologize for that. :oops: I think I was kind of getting frustrated with the stalemate here more than anything and felt that it's not going anywhere. In fact, after this post I'm going to stay out of this because I'm kind of tired of trying to find a happy medium for this situation. I've been trying to be the middle man I guess, trying to see both sides and find some kind of compromise but it's been nothing but a complete wast of my time and energy. I'm going to take the kids out to enjoy the pool that I worked so hard to finally get ready and forget about this crap for awhile.


I choose option E: Defense of 4 and SPecial Defense Power of an auto shield and here is my reasoning. Bullseye is a character who will take a wound just to get the killshot on his opponent, especially at range. For instance when he fought both Daken and Hawkeye in the recent Dark Reign storyline, he allowed both to tag him in order to deliver a worse blow. In Hawkeye's case he avoided major wounds because he countered by shooting Bullseye's arrow out of the air. With Daken, he took an arrow thrown in the thigh to shoot Daken through the neck, which would have killed anyone not related to Wolverine. So, I think a lower defense at range, plus 4 plus auto shield is essentially the same number of shields as 5 plus roll and extra. I think if he took a ranged wound, maybe he could get an additional boost to Deadly Aim to represent this theme.

I don't quite understand what you were trying to say here Spidey, sorry. :(

I'm not sure a Defense of 6 necessarily implies invulnerability of some level. In HS mechanics, Defense is not only how hard someone is to damage, but also how hard they are to hit. For someone like Superman a high Defense usually represents how hard he is to damage. In the case of Bullseye, it would be how hard he is to hit. Captain America has a Defense of 6, and if we assume 1 of those points is the shield, he'd have a 5 without it. Bullseye is much more acrobatic than Cap. Cap is somewhat better at hand-to-hand, but the extra acrobatics plus the adamantium skeleton easily counts for 1 point of Defense, in my mind.

What is Bullseye's life of 5 supposed to represent? I thought that was part of his skeleton making him harder to kill. It seems like you have 1 life and 1 defense being attributed to his adamantium skeleton and not just the 1 defense. The thing about attributing every part of his agility/skills and skeleton to his normal defense, is that if he were negated, he'd lose nothing defensively. Superman loses Man of Steel, Wolverine and Deadpool lose Healing Factor, Wonder Woman loses her Bracets, Martian Manhunter loses Intangibility, Drake loses Thorian Speed and many others lose special defensive powers, counter strikes etc. etc. I kind of don't see how Bullseye should be so unique and different that he loses nothing defensively if negated when apparently so much of his defense is indeed special because of his great agility and acrobatics. How does everyone else with defensive/acrobatic greatness lose something when negated and Bullseye doesn't? That part of it seems kind of off for me anyway.

[GreyOwl]

The reason it can't be negated is because it isn't due to a super power or gadget, it's part of him. I'm not sure how anyone could negate an adamantium skeleton. :shrug:

But I think Hahma has the right idea about just leaving this behind. I'm going to do the same and let you remaining heroes decide whatever you want.

[Griffin]

Which option do you prefer?

A - Give Bullseye a Defense of 6

B - Give Bullseye a Defense of 5

C - Give Bullseye a Defense of 6 with a special power reflecting his Adamantium Skeleton

D - Give Bullseye a Defense of 5 with a special power reflecting his Adamantium Skeleton
4 for B (Griffin, Necro, Whitestuff, A3n)
1 for D (Hahma)
1 for E (Spidey)
2 for abstaining (Bats and GO)

I don't think we have a stale mate, and I think the entire group has voted and reached a majority decision. B it is.

[GreyOwl]

I think we've passed the waiting period, so I propose we move Bullseye to the Playtesting Phase.

[Griffin]

yea

[Hahma]

yea

[whitestuff]

yea

[NecroBlade]

The reason it can't be negated is because it isn't due to a super power or gadget, it's part of him. I'm not sure how anyone could negate an adamantium skeleton. :shrug:
Magic.














No, seriously, it's magic, it can do anything.

And yea.

[A3n]

Yea - but I would like to see an inclusion to the bio explaining his Adamantium Skeleton.

[Griffin]

Yea - but I would like to see an inclusion to the bio explaining his Adamantium Skeleton.
Which to me is justified by his Life of 5. Good call.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Yea.

[Griffin]

The proposal passes and I will update the playtesting sign up sheet after I send a PM to our Sidekicks for first dibs. :D

[GreyOwl]

Thanks!

[GreyOwl]

So...any playtesting love yet? :)

[Griffin]

So...any playtesting love yet? :)
Well you got SirG and Adam Souza as your playtesters, so I am guessing that it will get done in about a week's time. They are solid guys who I have a lot of respect for. Both of them kick some major booty, though SirG has been a bit distant lately.

[IAmBatman]

You guys really hit the mark with this one! :-) Good stuff. Can't wait to see some playtest results from our guys in that department.

[GreyOwl]

Playtest results from SirGalahad:

CHECK LIST FOR FIGURE UNITS - Bullseye
- THEME TEST - PASS
- MIRROR TEST - PASS
- BONDING TEST - PASS
- SYNERGIES TEST - PASS
- POWER CHECK - PASS
- FUN TEST - PASS
- FUN COMPETITIVE TEST - PASS
- DRAFTING TEST - PASS
- USAGE TEST - PASS
- STRATEGY TEST - PASS, especially whether or not to disengage in order to receive the autoskull

PLAY TEST LIST FOR FIGURE UNITS
All tests done on Fire Isles

- HEAVY HITTER TEST - PASS

Test 1 v Beast
Bullseye wins on Turn 1 of Round 2 with 1 wound from Lava Field.

Test 2 v Jean Grey
Jean wins on Turn 6 of Round 1 with 2 wounds (defense whiff).

Test 3 v Jean Grey
Bullseye wins on Turn 5 of Round 2 with 3 wounds.

Test 4 v Huntress
Huntress wins on Turn 4 of Round 1 with 3 wounds.

Test 5 v Mystique
Mystique wins on Turn 3 of Round 2 with 2 wounds.

Test 6 v Kaemon Awa
Kaemon Awa wins on Turn 4 of Round 2 with 3 wounds.

Test 7 v Green Arrow
Bullseye wins on Turn 3 of Round 1 with a clean sheet (0 wounds). 5 skull attack v. 1
shield.

Test 8 v Green Arrow
Bullseye wins on Turn 1 of Round 2 with 3 wounds. GA rolled a 1 for Skill shot at the end of Round 1.

Test 9 v Sentinel
Bullseye wins on Turn 6 of Round 1 with 3 wounds.

Test 10 v Sentinel
Sentinel wins on Turn 6 of Round 1 with a clean sheet.

- SQUAD TEST - PASS

Test 1 v KoW x2 (140)

Round 1: Initiative Bullseye. He tries to pick one out of the start zone, but without the auto skull, he fails. Knights get no attacks the entire round, as Bullseye can use his range and higher move to snipe two (2). No lava field damage.

Round 2: Initiative Bullseye. Bullseye takes out one KoW each turn (5). Knights get attacks this round, but can only muster one per turn, and only for one total wound. Bullseye takes another wound for lava field damage (2).

Round 3: Initiative KoW: All remaining Knights get adjacent, removing his autoskull for the remainder of the game. Knights inflict wounds each of the first two turns (4), but lose a man each turn as well (7). Both miss last attack. Lava field bakes final tin man.

Bullseye wins after 3 full Rounds with 4 wounds.

Test 2 v Stingers x3 (180)

Round 1: Initiative Bullseye. Bullseye turtles to get first attack, kills first Stinger (1). Stinger Drain =2 (2). Bullseye snipes third (3). SD = 11 and Marro hit for three total wounds (3). Lava field puts Bullseye at critical life (4) and takes out all 3 Stingers (6).

Round 2: Initiative Stingers. No need for Drain, as squad takes down the assassin from height disadvantage.

Stingers win on Turn 1 of Round 2 with 3 Stingers remaining.

- ARMY TEST - PASS

Test 1
Team Bullseye (170) & Thor (430) = 600 v
Team Bats (200) & Superman (400) = 600

Round 1: Initiaitve Team Bullseye: Thor turtles, staying out of Supes' threat range. Supes flies up to gain high ground. Thor flies to same level and rolls 18 for God of Thunder Strike against the Kryptonian(3). Superman gets adjacent and hits the Asgardian for two of his own (2). Thor hits back for 1 with Mjolnir to avoid Man of Steel (4), but Batman blocks, and Supes misses. No lava field damage.

Round 2: Initiative Team Bullseye: Thor puts Superman to critical life (6). Kal-El rolls 4 skulls, only to see them all blocked. Thor puts down the Man of Steel. OM 2 on Superman. Bullseye moves forward, but has no shot. Batman advances, but both 'Rangs are blocked. No lava field damage.

Round 3: Team Bats: Mr. Wayne gets height on Bullseye and hits for 1 wound (1). Bullseye disengages safely, shoots down from height, but takes another wound from Evasive Strike (2), even with the -2 to Bats' roll. Bats gets level with the assassin, but cannot hit. Thor flies even to Bats and hits for three wounds (3). Bats swings at Bullseye and hits for another (3). Bullseye disengages safely to get off the lava field and rolls 4 skulls from height disadvantage, downing the Batman.

Team Bullseye wins on Turn 6 of Round 3 with 3 wounds on Bullseye and 2 wounds on Thor.

Test 2
Team Bullseye (170), Huntress (170), Silver Surfer (320) = 660 v
Team Captain America (220), Mystique (165), Deadpool (285) = 670

Round 1: Initiative Team Cap. Cap moves out. Surfer moves and blasts Cap for one wound (1). Deadpool moves adjacent to Cap and hits Surfer for two wounds (2). Surfer, guessing that OM 3 is on Mystique, blasts at her in her start zone, hitting her for three wounds (3). OM 3 was on Mystique, so she moves adjacent to the Cap/Deadpool pod and shoots at Surfer, but her 3 skulls are blocked. Bullseye shoots at Cap, but is blocked. Cap takes one wound for lava field damage (2)

Round 2: Initiative Team Bullseye. Surfer flies adjacent to Mystique to avoid Incognito and Cosmic Blasts her off the map (Wisecrack = 2). OM 1 on Mystique. Surfer backs up and fires at Cap and hits for one wound (3) (Wisecrack = 6). Deadpool fires at Surfer, but misses. Bullseye sets his sights on Cap and hits for another wound (4). Cap throws shield at Surfer and Bullseye, but both are blocked. Deadpool takes a wound from lava field damage, but had already healed (1).

Round 3: Initiative Team Cap. Deadpool rolls 3 and 4 skulls vs Surfer, but all are blocked. Surfer tries to finish off the Captain and his Tactician bonus, but Wisecrack = 18, so instead hits Deadpool for 1 wound (2). Deadpool puts Surfer at critical life (5). Surfer gives up height to stay out of Wisecrack range and puts down the good Captain. Deadpool rolls just enough to send the Surfer off his board. His second shot is for Bullseye, but it is blocked. Bullseye shoots back and hits for another wound (3). No lava field damage. Deadpool heals (2).

Round 4: Initiative Team Cap. Deadpool hits Bullseye for his first wound (1). Bullseye disengages safely, and his roll of 4 skulls plus the autoskull are just enough to take the mercenary out.

Team Bullseye wins on Turn 2 of Round 4 with 1-wound Bullseye and a pouting, unactivated Huntress.


Analysis: Bullseye feels like an assassin. Choosing to disengage to gain the autoskull is usually worth it, even if it means giving up height. Pass at 180.

[Griffin]

An excellent playtest. Thor and Bullseye kicked Superman and Batman's butt. :shock:

[Hahma]

Not the best figure to get good pictures of, but I did what I could. :)


http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k273/hahma/Punisher%20background%20pix/SupergirlandBullseye012.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k273/hahma/Punisher%20background%20pix/SupergirlandBullseye014.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k273/hahma/Punisher%20background%20pix/SupergirlandBullseye015.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k273/hahma/Punisher%20background%20pix/SupergirlandBullseye017.jpg

[GreyOwl]

Thanks! :)

[Hahma]

You're welcome:D

[GreyOwl]

Second playtest for Bullseye:

C3G PLAY TEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT BULLSEYE

- THEME TEST
PASS - I feel that Bullseye perfectly matches the theme of the charecter. His power is dead on, and his stats are perfectly reasonable.

- MIRROR TEST
PASS - His power does not interact in any way with another incarnation of itself.

- BONDING TEST
PASS - No Bonding. No Conflict.

- SYNERGIES TEST
PASS - I found no synergies specific to Bullseye that would be game breaking.

- POWER CHECK
PASS - I found no interaction with Bullseye that was overwhelming or game breaking.

- FUN TEST
PASS - Bulleyes power is simple to use and effective. Bullseye was a joy to play.

- FUN COMPETITIVE TEST
PASS - Bullseye is simpley good at what he does best, and you can't fault him for that. I'd have no reservations playing against him.

- DRAFTING TEST
PASS - Bullseye is a great mid to long range fighter at a reasonable cost, making him an excellent draft choice.

- USAGE TEST
PASS - Bullseyes sole power being attack oriented is quite usable.

- STRATEGY TEST
PASS - Bullseye presents a ranged fighting ability between Captain America and Silver Surfers levels with lower levels of defense and costs less than both. There is a definte niche for him in Superscape.

- Heavy Hitter or Mid-Level Hero/ Does it pass? PASS
I'd be comfortable with him at 160. He had Green Arrow beat solidly, only lucked out against Huntress and Cyclops, then Jean stomped him.


TEST 1
Map: Badru Valley
Units: GREEN ARROW (150pts)
Bullseye Wins - R1T2 - 2 life remaining
They brought each other down to 2 life pretty quickly, but a 4 skull attack from Bullseye met with only a single shield lead to a quick victory for Bullseye.

TEST 2
Map: Badru Valley
Units:GREEN ARROW (150pts)
Bullseye Wins - R1T3 - 5 life remaining
This time around, the Emerald Archer couldn't score a single skull on 2 attacks and then botched (1) his skill shot roll on the third.

TEST 3
Map: Badru Valley
Units: HUNTRESS (170pts)
BULLSEYE WINS - R2T1 - 3 life remaining
Bullseye take a graising shot in the arm T1 and then spends the rest of the fight snatching her Quarells out of the air before they can touch him. The only other wound he took was during a disengaging manuver to keep out away from her Ruthless Counterattack.

TEST 4
Map: Badru Valley
Units: HUNTRESS (170 pts)
HUNTRESS WINS - R1T3 - 4 life remaining
This time Huntress returns the favor nad shrugs off every attack, while doing at least a wound to Bullseye every turn. She finished the fight with a big 4 skull attack that was unoppossed.

TEST 5
Map: Badru Valley
Units: SPIDER-MAN (160 pts)
BULLSEYE WINS - R1T2 - 5 life remaining
Bullseye dispacthed the pesky Spider-Man with a single well placed shot.
Bullseye rolled 5 Skulls, Spidey rolled a 12 for Spidey Sense but the -2 for dealy aim dropped that to a 10, and Spidey rollled mostly skulls as well.

TEST 6
Map: Badru Valley
Units: SPIDER-MAN (160 pts)
SPIDER-MAN WINS - R1T2 - 3 life remaining
Pretty even match, but Bullseye can't match the webslingers staying power.

TEST 7
Map: Badru Valley
Units: CYLCOPS
BULLSEYE WINS - R2T2 - 1 life remaining
Cyclops missed twice, while Bullseye consistantly wounded on every attack

TEST 8
Map: Badru Valley
Units: CYLCOPS
CYLCOPS WINS - R1T2 - 3 life remaining
Cyclops nearly one the match with the first attack (5 :skull: vs. 1 :shield: ). Bulleye got in a wound and then fell to another pounding optic blast (4 :skull: vs. 2 :shield: ).

TEST 9
Map: Badru Valley
Units: JEAN GREY
JEAN GREY WINS - R1T3 - 2 life remaining
Bullseye got in a wound on every hit, but was no match for Jean's 1-2 punch of TK and Normal Attack. Jean picked him up and slammed him down adjacent to her, robbing him of Deadly Aim, and keept him there with her Psionc Grip.




_____________________________________________________________


- Squad / Does it pass?
PASS - Bullseye dropped one with every attack, but could not withstand thier massed return fire.
Map: Badru Valley
Units: Marro Stingers (3 squads)

Marro Moved up.
Bullseye moved up and killed one Marro Stinger.
Marro Moved up, made thier stinger drain (19) and combined inflicted 1 wound on Bullseye.
Bullseye moved up and killed one Marro Stinger.
Marro Moved up, made thier stinger drain (10) and combined inflicted 6 wounds on Bullseye

_____________________________________________________________


- Army Test/ Does it pass? PASS
Even with Taelord and High Ground, it was a close game.
Map: Badru Valley
Units: Bullseye, Green Arrow, and Taelord VS. Iceman, Jean Grey, and Beast

I figured I'd put Bullseye with, C3G's Premeire Sniper, Green Arrow and throw in Taelord to boost thier damage.



R1T1
Green Arrow moves up SS(7) and eliminates Jean Grey before she ever saw it coming 5 :skull: Vs 1 :shield:
Iceman retaliates and puts 2 wounds on Green Arrow (2 life)R1T2
Taelord moves up to boost Green Arrow
Iceman puts 1 wound on Green Arrow (1 life)R1T3
Bullseye moves up and fails to wound IceMan
Iceman trys to ice Green Arrow, but failsR2T1
IceMan moves to Equal Elevation and puts 1 wound on Green Arrow (0 life)
Green Arrow had OM1R2T2
IceMan puts 2 wounds on Taelord (3 life)
Bullseye moves to E.E. and puts 3 wounds on IceMan (1 life)R2T3
IceMan fails to putsanywounds on Taelord (3 life)
Bullseye puts 2 wounds on IceMan (0 life)R3T1
Beast Moves up
Bullseye fails to wound beastR3T2
Beast attacks and fails to wound Bullseye
Beast attacks and puts 2 wounds on Taelord (1 life)
Bullseye puts 1 wound on Beast (4 life)R3T3
Beast attacks and puts 1 wound on Taelord (0 life)
Beast Negotiates and removes and OM from BullseyeR4T1
Bullseye puts 1 wound on Beast (3 life)
Beast puts 1 wound on Bullseye (4 life)R4T2
Bullseye fails to wound beast
Beast puts 2 wounds on Bullseye (2 life)R4T3
Bullseye fails to wound beast (3 life)
Beast fails to wounds Bullseye (2 life)R5T1
Bullseye puts 1 wound on Beast (2 life)
Beast fails to wounds Bullseye (2 life)R5T2
Bullseye puts 1 wound on Beast (1 life)
Beast puts 1 wound on Bullseye (1 life)R5T3
Bullseye puts 1 wound on Beast (0 life)Bullseye - last man standing R5T3 - 1 life remaining

_____________________________________________________________


- Army Test/ Does it pass? PASS
Map: Badru Valley
Units: Bullseye, Captain America, & Spider-Man Vs. Green Arrow, Black Canary, & Captain America



R1T1
Spider-Man moves up to the road to draw enemy fire
Black Canary moves up to the road and trys to catch Spider-Man in her Canary Cry Special Attack. Spider-Man's Spidey-Sense (11) saves him from damage and he web-lines adjacent to Black CanaryR1T2
Bullseye moves to High Ground within 5 of Black Canary and puts 1 wound on Black Canary (3 life)
Green Arrow Skill Shot (20) puts 2 wounds on Bullseye (3 life)R1T3
Bullseye within 5 of Black Canary, puts 1 wound on Black Canary (2 life)
Green Arrow fails to wound BullseyeR2T1
Captain America moves adjacent to Bullseye and fails to wound Black Canary
Green Arrow SS(19) puts 1 wound on BullseyeR2T2
Bullseye with High Ground and Inspired by Cap puts 4 wounds on Black Canary (0 life)
Green Arrow SS(7) puts 1 wound on Bullseye (1 life)R2T3
Bullseye puts 2 wounds on Green Arrow (2 life)
Green Arrow SS(19) puts 2 wounds on Bullseye (0 life)R3T1
Green Arrow SS(1) No Attack
Captain America puts 2 wounds on Green Arrow (0 life) At this point the battle had broken down to Captain America Vs. Captain America & Spider-Man and I concluded the test


I found Bullseye fun to play, well balanced, and fully draftable, and would endorse him at 160 points

[IAmBatman]

hmm ... that's one for 160 and one for 180. This will take some deeper analysis/breakdown. Unfortunately I have about 35 threads to catch up with still ...

[NecroBlade]

With Bullseye performing very well in the army tests (and just fine everywhere else, 50/50 in HHs and losing to squads), I think right in the middle is appropriate: 170.

Also, are we changing to "add or subtract 2" or not?

[A3n]

I personally don't see the "add" as necessary.

[NecroBlade]

IMO, it's just one of those "it couldn't hurt" things. There may be a defensive power in the future where adding 2 would work against it, which is what we want Bullseye to do. If we don't have the wording there now, we're not gonna add it later. And it's not like it would be taking up needed space now.

[Griffin]

IMO, it's just one of those "it couldn't hurt" things. There may be a defensive power in the future where adding 2 would work against it, which is what we want Bullseye to do. If we don't have the wording there now, we're not gonna add it later. And it's not like it would be taking up needed space now.

I agree with you, in fact I was the one who originally brought it up. I believe that the rebuttal was that "If such a power was created where the figure avoided attacks by rolling low on the D20, it is nice that Bullseye would have a counter." or something along those line.

[A3n]

I would be against any power that rolls low to gain the advantage. & official powers are the same, low bad - high good.

[IAmBatman]

I'm with A3n on this one - I don't think the wording sounds good or is necessary.

[NecroBlade]

I would be against any power that rolls low to gain the advantage. & official powers are the same, low bad - high good.
Marcu Esenwein.

I'm firmly with Griffin on this one.

[Griffin]

I would be against any power that rolls low to gain the advantage. & official powers are the same, low bad - high good.
Marcu Esenwein.

I'm firmly with Griffin on this one.
Yeah, get em Necro. :boxing:

[A3n]

I would be against any power that rolls low to gain the advantage. & official powers are the same, low bad - high good.
Marcu Esenwein.


:shock: How can we hold ourselves to higher standards when official cards do THAT. You changed my mind that we can't rely on official cards to retain any standards, so I will now say add the "add". But I will still be against any C3G power rolling high as a negative effect. :evil:

Cheers

[IAmBatman]

Marcu's power isn't a defensive power so it wouldn't be relevant ...

[Griffin]

Marcu's power isn't a defensive power so it wouldn't be relevant ...
It is relevant in the sense that on his card High rolls = Bad and Low rolls = Good.

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, but I'm of the "I don't really care if some powers get around Bullseye when we can avoid some awkward/icky sounding wording on his card" bandwagon.
I might be the only one on it, but I'm on it.

[A3n]

Yeah, but I'm of the "I don't really care if some powers get around Bullseye when we can avoid some awkward/icky sounding wording on his card" bandwagon.
I might be the only one on it, but I'm on it.

Yeah sorry I had to get off :D. I didn't think it was awkward/icky sounding, I just thought it was redundant, but Necro proved otherwise. I big enough to say when I am wrong, & smart enough to listen to reason. (That's not saying anything about you Bats - just me)

[IAmBatman]

Oh, I understand. Your objections and mine were different. I'll take a look at the wording when it's updated and see if I can't suggest something that reads more smoothly for me.

[Griffin]

Yeah, but I'm of the "I don't really care if some powers get around Bullseye when we can avoid some awkward/icky sounding wording on his card" bandwagon.
I might be the only one on it, but I'm on it.
DEADLY AIM - When attacking a non-adjacent figure within 5 clear sight spaces of Bullseye, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled. If an opponent rolls the 20-sided die for a figure attacked by Bullseye that is non-adjacent and within 5 clear sight spaces of Bullseye, you may add or subtract 2 from the roll.That was the only difference. Does that really sound icky to you? :roll:

[whitestuff]

In the last army test Adam Souza didn't seem to use Black Canary and Green Arrow synergy at all.

Will this colour the results of that test?

[IAmBatman]

Do you add from rolls?

[Griffin]

Do you add from rolls?
Is there a problem with the grammar?

[IAmBatman]

DEADLY AIM
When attacking a non-adjacent figure within 5 clear sight spaces of Bullseye, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled. If an opponent rolls the 20-sided die for a figure attacked by Bullseye that is non-adjacent and within 5 clear sight spaces of Bullseye, you may add 2 to or subtract 2 from the roll.

[whitestuff]

So, if I attack my own Spiderman, I can make his Spidey-Sense better in order to get him to Swing-Line?

Why?

[Griffin]

So, if I attack my own Spiderman, I can make his Spidey-Sense better in order to get him to Swing-Line?

Why?
Just slip in "an opponent's figure" to avoid it.

[NecroBlade]

This is why I don't like attacking your own figures. However, the same logic applies to "high roll = bad" and subtracting 2, so the point is kinda moot. Or what Grif said.

[GreyOwl]

Yeah, but I'm of the "I don't really care if some powers get around Bullseye when we can avoid some awkward/icky sounding wording on his card" bandwagon.
I might be the only one on it, but I'm on it.

Nope, I'm sitting right next to you on that bandwagon. :)

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I really like Bats' rewrite there. You don't add from, you add to.

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, but I'm of the "I don't really care if some powers get around Bullseye when we can avoid some awkward/icky sounding wording on his card" bandwagon.
I might be the only one on it, but I'm on it.

Nope, I'm sitting right next to you on that bandwagon. :)

I really like Bats' rewrite there. You don't add from, you add to.

Yay. :-D

[GreyOwl]

DEADLY AIM
When attacking a non-adjacent figure within 5 clear sight spaces of Bullseye, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled. If an opponent rolls the 20-sided die for a figure attacked by Bullseye that is non-adjacent and within 5 clear sight spaces of Bullseye, you may add 2 to or subtract 2 from the roll.

So we're going with this wording, right?

Also, SirGalahad suggested this wording change (on the previous version) to simplify the wording somewhat:

DEADLY AIM - When attacking a non-adjacent figure within 5 clear sight spaces of Bullseye, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled. If an opponent rolls the 20-sided die for a figure attacked by Bullseye's Deadly Aim, that is non-adjacent and within 5 clear sight spaces of Bullseye you may subtract 2 from the roll.

[IAmBatman]

That should work - as long as you amalgamate the changes. :-)

[A3n]

Now I get what you are saying what about:
DEADLY AIM
When attacking a non-adjacent figure within 5 clear sight spaces of Bullseye, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled. If an opponent rolls the 20-sided die for a figure attacked by Bullseye's Deadly Aim, you may subtract 2 from, or add 2 to the roll.


Cheers

[IAmBatman]

Perfect. :-D

[GreyOwl]

Wording updated in first post. So now let's nail down the cost so we can finalize this guy. 170 seems to be in between for the two playtests, so we can either put him there or we could go a bit higher to 175 or even 180 to keep from making him an A+ unit.

[Griffin]

I think he could be 170 or 180, so why not 175? That would help make a couple other villains more draftable.

[GreyOwl]

I'm good with 175. Let's see how many others are! :p

I propose we fix Bullseye's cost at 175 points.

[Griffin]

Yea.

[A3n]

Yea

[whitestuff]

Yea

[Hahma]

yea

[A3n]

I had another thought about the wording & thought it was strange that you subtract (or add) 2 from the roll but it's not your roll. So I would like to suggest this very small change:

DEADLY AIM
When attacking a non-adjacent figure within 5 clear sight spaces of Bullseye, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled. If an opponent rolls the 20-sided die for a figure attacked by Bullseye's Deadly Aim, you may subtract 2 from, or add 2 to their roll.

Cheers

[Griffin]

I had another thought about the wording & thought it was strange that you subtract (or add) 2 from the roll but it's not your roll. So I would like to suggest this very small change:

DEADLY AIM
When attacking a non-adjacent figure within 5 clear sight spaces of Bullseye, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled. If an opponent rolls the 20-sided die for a figure attacked by Bullseye's Deadly Aim, you may subtract 2 from, or add 2 to their roll.Cheers
That doesn't work because "an opponent" is singular and "their" is plural.

[A3n]

I had another thought about the wording & thought it was strange that you subtract (or add) 2 from the roll but it's not your roll. So I would like to suggest this very small change:

DEADLY AIM
When attacking a non-adjacent figure within 5 clear sight spaces of Bullseye, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled. If an opponent rolls the 20-sided die for a figure attacked by Bullseye's Deadly Aim, you may subtract 2 from, or add 2 to their roll.Cheers
That doesn't work because "an opponent" is singular and "their" is plural.

:poorpost: I believe if you look "their" up in the dictionary you will find that I have used it correctly. :neener:

[NecroBlade]

Yea

[Griffin]

I had another thought about the wording & thought it was strange that you subtract (or add) 2 from the roll but it's not your roll. So I would like to suggest this very small change:

DEADLY AIM
When attacking a non-adjacent figure within 5 clear sight spaces of Bullseye, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled. If an opponent rolls the 20-sided die for a figure attacked by Bullseye's Deadly Aim, you may subtract 2 from, or add 2 to their roll.Cheers
That doesn't work because "an opponent" is singular and "their" is plural.

:poorpost: I believe if you look "their" up in the dictionary you will find that I have used it correctly. :neener:
You can ask Bats when he is around next, but I am fairly certain that is incorrect.

[A3n]

From the dictionary:
their   [thair; unstressed ther] Show IPA
–pronoun
1.
a form of the possessive case of they used as an attributive adjective, before a noun: their home; their rights as citizens; their departure for Rome.
2.
(used after an indefinite singular antecedent in place of the definite masculine form his or the definite feminine form her ): Someone left their book on the table. Did everyone bring their lunch?

[Griffin]

From the dictionary:
their   [thair; unstressed ther] Show IPA
–pronoun
1.
a form of the possessive case of they used as an attributive adjective, before a noun: their home; their rights as citizens; their departure for Rome.
2.
(used after an indefinite singular antecedent in place of the definite masculine form his or the definite feminine form her ): Someone left their book on the table. Did everyone bring their lunch?
Damn, and all this time I have been using "his/her"..... darn you underpaid school teachers! :shakefist:

[GreyOwl]

I was just about to post the exact same quote A3n just posted. You can use it both ways, as the plural and the singular. I didn't know that either until just recently. Score one for public education in the U.S. :roll:

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Uhh...Yea.

[IAmBatman]

yea and I didn't know that either - I don't really care for it, though. :-P

[GreyOwl]

I believe that's all 8 votes, so Bullseye is in the final editing phase. A3n, could you do the mini picture when you get a chance? I put a link to the photos Hahma took in the first post. Thanks!

[A3n]

I believe that's all 8 votes, so Bullseye is in the final editing phase. A3n, could you do the mini picture when you get a chance? I put a link to the photos Hahma took in the first post. Thanks!
I'll try to get it done tonight.

Cheers

[GreyOwl]

Awesome, thank you!

[GreyOwl]

Bullseye!

http://www.hiddendragon.com/hs_customs/BULLSEYE-MINI-C3G.jpg
http://www.hiddendragon.com/hs_customs/BULLSEYE-C3G.jpg

[Griffin]

Cool. Is there anyway we could get a more metropolitan background for the mini card though?

[IAmBatman]

I agree - the mini blends in a bit too much with the current background.
Otherwise, I'm liking it!

[GreyOwl]

Any suggestions?

[Griffin]

Any suggestions?
I was thinking a rooftop city view with a sunset. Or how about a gothic church scene like in the Dare Devil movie?

I will hit Google up for a bit. :)

[Grungebob]

Interesting. This guy is very similar in some respects to the official one, but yet he's quite a bit different as well. The points are not the same so I am thinking that the power level you guys envisioned for him is because of the larger network of heroes you all have been working and testing with... Love it.

[Griffin]

Interesting. This guy is very similar in some respects to the official one, but yet he's quite a bit different as well. The points are not the same so I am thinking that the power level you guys envisioned for him is because of the larger network of heroes you all have been working and testing with... Love it.
Did you guys by chance reflect he adamantium skeleton in any way?

[Grungebob]

Interesting. This guy is very similar in some respects to the official one, but yet he's quite a bit different as well. The points are not the same so I am thinking that the power level you guys envisioned for him is because of the larger network of heroes you all have been working and testing with... Love it.
Did you guys by chance reflect he adamantium skeleton in any way?Um I can't give you any details like that.

[Griffin]

Interesting. This guy is very similar in some respects to the official one, but yet he's quite a bit different as well. The points are not the same so I am thinking that the power level you guys envisioned for him is because of the larger network of heroes you all have been working and testing with... Love it.
Did you guys by chance reflect he adamantium skeleton in any way?Um I can't give you any details like that.
I know.... I was just hoping that maybe your were drunk and I could pull one over on ya. ;)

[Grungebob]

Interesting. This guy is very similar in some respects to the official one, but yet he's quite a bit different as well. The points are not the same so I am thinking that the power level you guys envisioned for him is because of the larger network of heroes you all have been working and testing with... Love it.
Did you guys by chance reflect he adamantium skeleton in any way?Um I can't give you any details like that.
I know.... I was just hoping that maybe your were drunk and I could pull one over on ya. ;)
Well, not hard to do even sober. So how did you guys represent his spine in your version?

[GreyOwl]

When I first designed him, I represented the increased durability due to adamantium in his Life 5 (vs. Life 4 which, as a rough average, we considered to be a "normal" human). The adamantium also allows him to perform advanced acrobatics that normal humans can't perform, which allows him to dodge attacks easier. I originally represented that with a Defense of 6, which later got reduced to a Defense of 5.

[Griffin]

Interesting. This guy is very similar in some respects to the official one, but yet he's quite a bit different as well. The points are not the same so I am thinking that the power level you guys envisioned for him is because of the larger network of heroes you all have been working and testing with... Love it.
Did you guys by chance reflect he adamantium skeleton in any way?Um I can't give you any details like that.
I know.... I was just hoping that maybe your were drunk and I could pull one over on ya. ;)
Well, not hard to do even sober. So how did you guys represent his spine in your version?
Yeah we sorta didn't. I think ultimately we decided that a life of 5 could mean that if someone wanted it too, but since the most common known version of Bullseye is just a normal man with no Adamantium, we decided not to reflect that, otherwise, as GO pointed out, we would have gone with a defense of 6, which felt wrong to most of us really when compared to Hulk, Doom, Iron Man, Abomination, etc.

Were you even aware that he had an Adamantium Skeleton, because I wasn't, and most of us were not either. In fact, I don't think most comic fans/MarvelScape players do.

[Grungebob]

Interesting. This guy is very similar in some respects to the official one, but yet he's quite a bit different as well. The points are not the same so I am thinking that the power level you guys envisioned for him is because of the larger network of heroes you all have been working and testing with... Love it.
Did you guys by chance reflect he adamantium skeleton in any way?Um I can't give you any details like that.
I know.... I was just hoping that maybe your were drunk and I could pull one over on ya. ;)
Well, not hard to do even sober. So how did you guys represent his spine in your version?
Yeah we sorta didn't. I think ultimately we decided that a life of 5 could mean that if someone wanted it too, but since the most common known version of Bullseye is just a normal man with no Adamantium, we decided not to reflect that, otherwise, as GO pointed out, we would have gone with a defense of 6, which felt wrong to most of us really when compared to Hulk, Doom, Iron Man, Abomination, etc.

Were you even aware that he had an Adamantium Skeleton, because I wasn't, and most of us were not either. In fact, I don't think most comic fans/MarvelScape players do.I thought it was just his back, from having it broken.

[Griffin]

Interesting. This guy is very similar in some respects to the official one, but yet he's quite a bit different as well. The points are not the same so I am thinking that the power level you guys envisioned for him is because of the larger network of heroes you all have been working and testing with... Love it.
Did you guys by chance reflect he adamantium skeleton in any way?Um I can't give you any details like that.
I know.... I was just hoping that maybe your were drunk and I could pull one over on ya. ;)
Well, not hard to do even sober. So how did you guys represent his spine in your version?
Yeah we sorta didn't. I think ultimately we decided that a life of 5 could mean that if someone wanted it too, but since the most common known version of Bullseye is just a normal man with no Adamantium, we decided not to reflect that, otherwise, as GO pointed out, we would have gone with a defense of 6, which felt wrong to most of us really when compared to Hulk, Doom, Iron Man, Abomination, etc.

Were you even aware that he had an Adamantium Skeleton, because I wasn't, and most of us were not either. In fact, I don't think most comic fans/MarvelScape players do.I thought it was just his back, from having it broken.
Yeah that's right, or so I am told. I had actually never heard of him having Adamantium at all until GO brought it up.

So since you say you like Bullseye and I got you chatting over here, I would love to know if there are any other C3G designs that you like. :) Having you say you like our designs is like the Pope telling a Catholic he likes his prayers. :D

[A3n]

What about this background:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2383/2170289092_bdea668a98_b.jpg

or

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2407/2116258494_b1f0f78e08_b.jpg

Cheers

[GreyOwl]

Both of those look fine to me, but then again I like the original one, too. It hides Bullseye, so he looks like an assassin hiding in the shadows.

[Griffin]

I really like both of those A3n. I would really like to see what both of them look like with the figure and on the card.

[Hahma]

I won't even tell you guys what happened in today's release of Shadowland (http://marvel.com/news/comicstories.12121.c2e2~colon~_shadowland) #1 with Bullseye and Daredevil. :twisted:

[Griffin]

I won't even tell you guys what happened in today's release of Shadowland (http://marvel.com/news/comicstories.12121.c2e2%7Ecolon%7E_shadowland) #1 with Bullseye and Daredevil. :twisted:
:jawdrop: Wow!

[Grungebob]

Interesting. This guy is very similar in some respects to the official one, but yet he's quite a bit different as well. The points are not the same so I am thinking that the power level you guys envisioned for him is because of the larger network of heroes you all have been working and testing with... Love it.
Did you guys by chance reflect he adamantium skeleton in any way?Um I can't give you any details like that.
I know.... I was just hoping that maybe your were drunk and I could pull one over on ya. ;)
Well, not hard to do even sober. So how did you guys represent his spine in your version?
Yeah we sorta didn't. I think ultimately we decided that a life of 5 could mean that if someone wanted it too, but since the most common known version of Bullseye is just a normal man with no Adamantium, we decided not to reflect that, otherwise, as GO pointed out, we would have gone with a defense of 6, which felt wrong to most of us really when compared to Hulk, Doom, Iron Man, Abomination, etc.

Were you even aware that he had an Adamantium Skeleton, because I wasn't, and most of us were not either. In fact, I don't think most comic fans/MarvelScape players do.I thought it was just his back, from having it broken.
Yeah that's right, or so I am told. I had actually never heard of him having Adamantium at all until GO brought it up.

So since you say you like Bullseye and I got you chatting over here, I would love to know if there are any other C3G designs that you like. :) Having you say you like our designs is like the Pope telling a Catholic he likes his prayers. :DSomebody did Flash and I thought it was awesome.

[Griffin]

Interesting. This guy is very similar in some respects to the official one, but yet he's quite a bit different as well. The points are not the same so I am thinking that the power level you guys envisioned for him is because of the larger network of heroes you all have been working and testing with... Love it.
Did you guys by chance reflect he adamantium skeleton in any way?Um I can't give you any details like that.
I know.... I was just hoping that maybe your were drunk and I could pull one over on ya. ;)
Well, not hard to do even sober. So how did you guys represent his spine in your version?
Yeah we sorta didn't. I think ultimately we decided that a life of 5 could mean that if someone wanted it too, but since the most common known version of Bullseye is just a normal man with no Adamantium, we decided not to reflect that, otherwise, as GO pointed out, we would have gone with a defense of 6, which felt wrong to most of us really when compared to Hulk, Doom, Iron Man, Abomination, etc.

Were you even aware that he had an Adamantium Skeleton, because I wasn't, and most of us were not either. In fact, I don't think most comic fans/MarvelScape players do.I thought it was just his back, from having it broken.
Yeah that's right, or so I am told. I had actually never heard of him having Adamantium at all until GO brought it up.

So since you say you like Bullseye and I got you chatting over here, I would love to know if there are any other C3G designs that you like. :) Having you say you like our designs is like the Pope telling a Catholic he likes his prayers. :DSomebody did Flash and I thought it was awesome.
Awesome! He is one of my favorites as well. I think he really pushes the limits in terms of speed, which is exactly what someone would want I think. Btw, all C3G customs belong to all of us, not just one person. The LD usually sets the stage and manages the upkeep of the thread, but there is a lot of heart and soul that goes into each custom.

[Griffin]

Oh G-bob, how do you like Punisher?
http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac111/Amas73/Private/C3G/C3G_Punisher_mini.jpg

[Grungebob]

Awesome. He's got a big ol pile of attack options there.

[IAmBatman]

I like both those backgrounds as well - whichever the mini photo fits better on. :-)

[GreyOwl]

Updated with new background image:

http://www.hiddendragon.com/hs_customs/BULLSEYE-MINI-C3G.jpg
http://www.hiddendragon.com/hs_customs/BULLSEYE-C3G.jpg

[Griffin]

Can we do something about those unsightly feet? They just stand out too much. Can we bring him forward and down to cover them up? Or perhaps fade them out by slightly erasing them and adding some more fog?

[GreyOwl]

If I move him down enough to cover up the feet, there will be a lot of empty space above him. Fading them would make him look like a ghost. I think the mini is what it is...

[Griffin]

If I move him down enough to cover up the feet, there will be a lot of empty space above him. Fading them would make him look like a ghost. I think the mini is what it is...
Fair enough. If you are content with that being the best we can do, then I guess "that is that" as the muggles say. :geekslip: :shock:

[Hahma]

If I move him down enough to cover up the feet, there will be a lot of empty space above him. Fading them would make him look like a ghost. I think the mini is what it is...


Sadly, it's kind of a crappy mini. I think they could have done something much better.

[A3n]

It's a crappy pose. If you make the fog lighter (whiter) it will make the feet less obvious. You could also try turning that orange tint on that I had. I don't know if you did try it or not but if you flip the background horizontally still with the same view that might bring more of the focus back to the rest of the figure.

Cheers

[IAmBatman]

Background looks way better. Nice work. :thumbsup:

[whitestuff]

Can't you make the mini a bit bigger so that those feet can be hidden? Those feet are really awful...

[Griffin]

Can't you make the mini a bit bigger so that those feet can be hidden? Those feet are really awful...
:highfive: for the support.

[GreyOwl]

It's a crappy pose. If you make the fog lighter (whiter) it will make the feet less obvious. You could also try turning that orange tint on that I had. I don't know if you did try it or not but if you flip the background horizontally still with the same view that might bring more of the focus back to the rest of the figure.

Cheers

Done:

http://www.hiddendragon.com/hs_customs/BULLSEYE-MINI-C3G.jpg

[Griffin]

MUCH MUCH BETTER!!!! :D:up:

[GreyOwl]

In that case, I propose Bullseye be finalized and moved to the C3G On Deck thread.

[IAmBatman]

Yea!

[Hahma]

yea

[Griffin]

Yes.

[A3n]

Yea - Sorry I just realised I didn't do the Hit zone for you. :oops:

[Griffin]

Yea - Sorry I just realised I didn't do the Hit zone for you. :oops:
I can't believe we all missed that. :poorpost: We all need to seriously raise out personal standards for voting/proposing.

[whitestuff]

So... no-one else is bothered by his half a left foot?

[A3n]

So... no-one else is bothered by his half a left foot?

It's not half a foot it's a funny front on view of it :p - it's a bad pose.

[whitestuff]

So... no-one else is bothered by his half a left foot?

It's not half a foot it's a funny front on view of it :p - it's a bad pose.
It's mongo, that's what it is.

Can we doctor a foot for ol' clubby?