The Book of S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter

[NecroBlade]

The Book of S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter

C3G MARVEL WAVE 4
FIGHT AGAINST FEAR

http://c3ggames.com/C3G/released/cards/jpg/C3G_SHIELDSpotter_comic.jpg

Comic PDF (http://c3ggames.com/C3G/released/cards/pdf/C3G_SHIELDSpotter_comic.pdf)

http://c3ggames.com/C3G/released/cards/jpg/C3G_SHIELDSpotter_mini.jpg

Mini PDF (http://c3ggames.com/C3G/released/cards/pdf/C3G_SHIELDSpotter_mini.pdf)

The figure used for this unit is a Heroclix figure from the Sinister set.
Its model number and name are #004 / SHIELD Agent.
_________________________________________________________________

Character Bio - S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotters are part of an agency that maintains strong ties to the superhero community, especially Captain America (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=35281), the Avengers, and the Fantastic Four. S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotters work closely with Snipers (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=30370). In addition to marksmanship, they are also trained in camouflage, reconnaissance, and observation. Sniper/Spotter teams are especially effective when deployed within urban and jungle terrain.
_________________________________________________________________

-Rulings and Clarifications-
N/A_________________________________________________________________

-Combinations and Synergies-

Synergy Benefits Received

Classic:
N/AMarvel:
N/AC3G:
As an Agent, S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter can be placed on the battlefield by Nick Fury's (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=35000) Helicarrier Drop Team special power.
As an Agent, S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter can be activated by Nick Fury's (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=35000) Director of S.H.I.E.L.D. special power.
As an Agent, S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter may avoid leaving engagement attacks from opponent's figures within 5 clear sight spaces of Dum Dum Dugan (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=34752) with his Diversion special power.Synergy Benefits Offered

Classic:
Assisted Observation may allow a Sniper that you control to ignore the restriction on movement before attacking a non-adjacent figure. Current Snipers include: Deadeye Dan (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8106), Omnicron Snipers (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8118).
Improved Aim may allow a Sniper you control to re-reroll 1 non-skull attack die, and add 1 to a 20-sided die roll. Current Snipers include: Deadeye Dan (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8106), Omnicron Snipers (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8118).Marvel:
N/AC3G:
Assisted Observation may allow a Sniper that you control to ignore the restriction on movement before attacking a non-adjacent figure. Current Snipers include: S.H.I.E.L.D. Sniper (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=30370).
Improved Aim may allow a Sniper you control to re-reroll 1 non-skull attack die, and add 1 to a 20-sided die roll. Current Snipers include: S.H.I.E.L.D. Sniper (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=30370).
As a Human, S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter allows adjacent friendly Civilians (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=967599) to roll an additional attack and defense die due to their Strength in Numbers special power.
As an Agent, S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter may activate Dum Dum Dugan's (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=34752) Commando Backup special power.________________________________________________________________ _
-Immunities, Benefits, and Weaknesses-

Immunities
N/ABenefits
N/AWeaknesses
As a Common Hero, S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter is susceptible to additional effects from aspects of the following special powers: Doctor Doom's (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=30561) Mystic Power Drain, Joker II's (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=38384) Joker Toxin, Malice's (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=41449) Bubble Suffocation, Scarlet Witch's (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=31259) Chaos Magic Curse, Glyph of the Shrinking Ray Gun (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=31233).______________________________________________ ___________________

-Strategy, Tactics and Tips-
N/A-Heroscapers Community Contributions-
Initial Playtest: Necroblade (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1111276&postcount=32)
Second Playtest: Lord Pyre (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1150756&postcount=88)
Third Playtest: SirGalahad (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1142902&postcount=65)

[IAmBatman]

Maybe ...

ASSISTED OBSERVATION
Any Sniper you control can target figures within clear sight of this Spotter for attacks and special powers even if the Sniper moved during its turn. When a Sniper you control attacks a figure within clear sight of this Spotter, each blank rolled counts for one additional hit. When a Sniper you control rolls the 20-sided for an opponent's figure within clear sight of this Spotter, add 1 to your roll.

[NecroBlade]

Hmm...as is, the bonuses stack, so if multiple Spotters have LoS to the target, a single blank could mean multiple hits. That wasn't my intent, and I don't like it (and not your fault, I worded it that way, too). What about:

ASSISTED OBSERVATION
All Snipers you control can target figures within clear sight of this Spotter for attacks and special powers even if the Sniper moved during its turn. When a Sniper you control attacks a figure within clear sight of at least one Spotter, each blank rolled counts for one additional hit. When a Sniper you control rolls the 20-sided for an opponent's figure within clear sight of at least one Spotter, add 1 to your roll.

[Hahma]

Question: If a Spotter were to be carried onto a wall walk by Angel where the Spotter had clear line of sight on an opponent's figure down below on the opposite side of the castle wall as the Sniper, the Sniper would still be able to target the figure on the other side of the wall because it was in CLS of the Spotter?

Also, why would the Sniper roll the 20-sided die for the opponent's figure?

[IAmBatman]

I'm curious about the D20 inclusion myself ... are you planning on making other units called simply "Sniper?"
And, actually, shouldn't it be S.H.I.E.L.D. Sniper? Or are you referring to the class of Sniper?

[Hahma]

I'm curious about the D20 inclusion myself ... are you planning on making other units called simply "Sniper?"
And, actually, shouldn't it be S.H.I.E.L.D. Sniper? Or are you referring to the class of Sniper?


Actually, my dense self just figured it out, both parts of the power will help Deadeye Dan and the d20 will help him exclusively. But, the first part of the power will help S.H.I.E.L.D Sniper, DED and the Omnicrons. I was too focused on the synergy with the S.H.I.E.L.D. Sniper and forgot about the others. That's way cool to include them. However, I wonder how deadly those Omnicrons are going to be with the boost affecting a squad that will get 3 attacks.

Now I still wonder about the snipers being able to shoot at opponent's through walls. You could have Snipers sitting on the ground level inside a castle and a spotter/s up 20+ levels high and letting the Snipers shoot at any approaching figure that be impossible for the Sniper to shoot at. The Spotter isn't relaying the bullet to the target.

[Griffin]

Necro, how about this girl for a spotter?


http://www.hcrealms.com/units/sn006.jpg
Sinister 006/SHIELD Agent

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Not to bad, but go with the 005 or 004 version. They aren't on flying base.

[Griffin]

Not to bad, but go with the 005 or 004 version. They aren't on flying base.
Out of the three this was the best looking one IMO, mainly because of the metal on her shoulder, it just looked SHIELD like. And it doesn't matter if there is a flying base or not when you are re-basing these anyways. Besides, I thought the one with the flying stand would be best since it is the easiest to remove and then re-base by drilling a small hole in the base and gluing it. That is what I do with all of my customs. But they all 3 look good to me. If Necro likes them, he can choose one. Any of the 3 would work great I think. Perhaps we should choose the cheapest.


http://www.hcrealms.com/units/sn004.jpg
004 SHIELD Trooper
http://www.hcrealms.com/units/sn005.jpg
005 SHIELD Sniper
http://www.hcrealms.com/units/sn006.jpg
006 SHIELD Agent

[A3n]

Not to bad, but go with the 005 or 004 version. They aren't on flying base.
Out of the three this was the best looking one IMO, mainly because of the metal on her shoulder, it just looked SHIELD like. And it doesn't matter if there is a flying base or not when you are re-basing these anyways. Besides, I thought the one with the flying stand would be best since it is the easiest to remove and then re-base by drilling a small hole in the base and gluing it. That is what I do with all of my customs. But they all 3 look good to me. If Necro likes them, he can choose one. Any of the 3 would work great I think. Perhaps we should choose the cheapest.


Isn't that a jetpack on her back. That's why she is on a flying base. :shrug:

[Griffin]

Not to bad, but go with the 005 or 004 version. They aren't on flying base.
Out of the three this was the best looking one IMO, mainly because of the metal on her shoulder, it just looked SHIELD like. And it doesn't matter if there is a flying base or not when you are re-basing these anyways. Besides, I thought the one with the flying stand would be best since it is the easiest to remove and then re-base by drilling a small hole in the base and gluing it. That is what I do with all of my customs. But they all 3 look good to me. If Necro likes them, he can choose one. Any of the 3 would work great I think. Perhaps we should choose the cheapest.


Isn't that a jetpack on her back. That's why she is on a flying base. :shrug:
I really don't know, but that does make sense. If it is, I think that figure is auto canceled right? But the other 2 look great too, so I think we are fine, if Necro even likes this sculpt, which I think he will.

[NecroBlade]

I saw that mini briefly, but didn't pursue it. It'll work, though. I'll update the first post with the brunette.

Snipers still can't shoot figures they themselves don't have LoS to. All Spotter is doing is allowing Snipers* who have LoS to a target that Spotter also has LoS to, shoot that target immediately after moving instead of having to wait a turn. If a Spotter has LoS to a target, but a Sniper doesn't, the Sniper can't shoot that target per the rules of the game. If a Sniper has LoS to a target, but a Spotter doesn't, the Sniper has to wait a turn.

*Yes, including DED, but note that DED's special attack can never be modified, so the Spotter only helps out his normal attack and special power. If Omnicrons proove to be too powerful with Spotters (which I highly doubt, but we'll see) we can always change the power to only affect "Sniper Heroes."

[Hahma]

I think I must have misread or misinterpreted the Assisted Observation power. I think I read it to say that the Sniper can attack any figure within LOS of the Spotter, or something to that effect. :oops: So disregard my earlier comments.

That's what happens when I'm staying up way too late every night for this project and trying figure things out or test. I get crabby and stupid. :)

I'll be cutting back to recharge my brain cells, what I've got of them anyway.

[NecroBlade]

No problem. If, after reading it again, you still feel uneasy about it being misinterpreted, we can try to find alternate wording.

[Hahma]

I think it's the first line there that goofed me up.


ASSISTED OBSERVATION
All Snipers you control can target figures within clear sight of this S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter for attacks and special powers even if the Sniper moved during its turn. When a Sniper you control attacks a figure within clear sight of at least one S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter, each blank rolled counts for one additional hit. When a Sniper you control rolls the 20-sided for an opponent's figure within clear sight of at least one S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter, add 1 to your roll.



I don't know if this addition below in red will work or is necessary, but it clears up what I was misinterpreting. Maybe just reading the rest of the current power through and using common sense would suffice.

ASSISTED OBSERVATION
All Snipers you control can target figures within clear sight of both them, and this S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter for attacks and special powers even if the Sniper moved during its turn. When a Sniper you control attacks a figure within clear sight of at least one S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter, each blank rolled counts for one additional hit. When a Sniper you control rolls the 20-sided for an opponent's figure within clear sight of at least one S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter, add 1 to your roll.

[NecroBlade]

Which is why I had originally said I had no idea how to word that correctly. Does it still mess you up, though?

[Hahma]

I edited my previous post with a possible change idea, but it might not be official. I know what you mean in the power now, so I don't have a problem understanding it, but didn't know if it confused anyone else. I understand how it was kind of hard to express what you mean though, it's not easy and I'm kind of low on official wording skills right now. Like I said, I need to recharge my brain with a week of decent sleep. :D


Perhaps we need the level 12 intellects of Griff and Bats to help out with this. :D

[Griffin]

I really don't like the ambiguous Sniper aspect of this card. I think it should only work for S.H.I.E.L.D. Snipers, cutting out the Omnicrons and Dead Eye Dan. They don't fit with our universe. I am not saying that we shouldn't make our units "Compatible", but I personally don't like the idea of specifically boosting the Omnicrons and DED. Plus, the Omnicrons will absolutely dominate the game... no playtesting required on that, I know. Btw, the D20 aspect makes this power a bit too busy, and it really feels forced quite honestly, out of place even.

Here is my rewording.

ASSISTED OBSERVATION
All S.H.I.E.L.D. Snipers you control count blanks rolled when attacking as additional hits and can attack non-adjacent enemy figures after moving as long as the targeted enemy figure is within clear sight of at least one S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter you control.

[GreyOwl]

Perhaps it should only work on Human Snipers. That way we can include Deadeye Dan, but not Omnicrons...?

[NecroBlade]

They don't fit with our universe.
Allow me to be blunt - that is retarded. There is absolutely no reason to leave out those compatibilities, especially when there was a push to have Colossus work with Fighters. :roll:

Plus, the Omnicrons will absolutely dominate the game... no playtesting required on that, I know.This from the guy who just said "playtesting has its own vote and is our highest honored member." :roll: Omnicrons may be a B in the power rankings, but they really need support to even compete against something like the 4th. And that's at 100 points already for a 3-man squad.

Btw, the D20 aspect makes this power a bit too busy, and it really feels forced quite honestly, out of place even.It's there for Dan for now, yes, but there could be another sniper in the future that used a d20 power (even the same one). Let's not forget that Dan is ridiculously weak, so there's really no harm in this slight boost to him.

Perhaps it should only work on Human Snipers. That way we can include Deadeye Dan, but not Omnicrons...?
If Omnicrons prove to be too powerful with Spotters (which I highly doubt, but we'll see) we can always change the power to only affect "Sniper Heroes."

Already on it. ;)

[NecroBlade]

Hahma, what about:

ASSISTED OBSERVATION
If an opponent's figure is within clear sight of S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter and a Sniper you control, that Sniper can target that opponent's figure for attacks and special powers even if the Sniper moved during its turn. When a Sniper you control attacks a figure within clear sight of at least one S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter, each blank rolled counts for one additional hit. When a Sniper you control rolls the 20-sided for an opponent's figure within clear sight of at least one S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter, add 1 to your roll.

[GreyOwl]

They don't fit with our universe.
Allow me to be blunt - that is retarded. There is absolutely no reason to leave out those compatibilities, especially when there was a push to have Colossus work with Fighters. :roll:


I know we try our best to be as thematic as possible, but I think we need to be careful about this one particular aspect because the whole premise of Heroscape is centered around this not being thematic. The mixing of genres is integral to Heroscape. That's why synergy for Soldiers works on WW II soldiers, Roman soldiers, and Captain America. We shouldn't go out of our way to "correct" that aspect.

[Griffin]

They don't fit with our universe.
Allow me to be blunt - that is retarded. There is absolutely no reason to leave out those compatibilities, especially when there was a push to have Colossus work with Fighters. :roll:No, there is a reason, I don't like it. ;) My personal preference isn't retarded, your occasional inability to to take criticism in a mature way kinda is though. :p As far as the Colossus thing goes, I never said that or supported it.


Plus, the Omnicrons will absolutely dominate the game... no playtesting required on that, I know.This from the guy who just said "playtesting has its own vote and is our highest honored member." :roll: Omnicrons may be a B in the power rankings, but they really need support to even compete against something like the 4th. And that's at 100 points already for a 3-man squad.I don't need to playtest it because I have already played the crap out of the Omnicrons for the past 3 years. I know that with Taelord, Captain A, height, and your Snipers, it is just toooooooo much, you should know that, and accept it. You are wrong, and that is OK, it happens. ;) In fact, I think it may be too powerful for this unit as well, maybe even more so.

Btw, the D20 aspect makes this power a bit too busy, and it really feels forced quite honestly, out of place even.It's there for Dan for now, yes, but there could be another sniper in the future that used a d20 power (even the same one). Let's not forget that Dan is ridiculously weak, so there's really no harm in this slight boost to him.
My biggest problem with that line though is that it is weighing this power down. You have the Spotters giving the Snipers 3 freaking powers in what appears to be just one. It is a lot rolled into one, I think I remember you criticizing Wolfhunter for that, and your current power looks a lot like something he would create.

[Griffin]

They don't fit with our universe.
Allow me to be blunt - that is retarded. There is absolutely no reason to leave out those compatibilities, especially when there was a push to have Colossus work with Fighters. :roll:


I know we try our best to be as thematic as possible, but I think we need to be careful about this one particular aspect because the whole premise of Heroscape is centered around this not being thematic. The mixing of genres is integral to Heroscape. That's why synergy for Soldiers works on WW II soldiers, Roman soldiers, and Captain America. We shouldn't go out of our way to "correct" that aspect.
I just personally don't like our SHIELD Agents boosting all snipers, it is a personal thing. Which means I can personally share my opinion and if we go this route anyways, I can personally just not draft them together. No big deal.

[NecroBlade]

They don't fit with our universe.
Allow me to be blunt - that is retarded. There is absolutely no reason to leave out those compatibilities, especially when there was a push to have Colossus work with Fighters. :roll:No, there is a reason, I don't like it. ;) My personal preference isn't retarded, your occasional inability to to take criticism in a mature way kinda is though. :p As far as the Colossus thing goes, I never said that or supported it.
I didn't say you did, but it was there. And it was also retarded. ;)


Plus, the Omnicrons will absolutely dominate the game... no playtesting required on that, I know.This from the guy who just said "playtesting has its own vote and is our highest honored member." :roll: Omnicrons may be a B in the power rankings, but they really need support to even compete against something like the 4th. And that's at 100 points already for a 3-man squad.I don't need to playtest it because I have already played the crap out of the Omnicrons for the past 3 years. I know that with Taelord, Captain A, height, and your Snipers, it is just toooooooo much, you should know that, and accept it. You are wrong, and that is OK, it happens. ;) In fact, I think it may be too powerful for this unit as well, maybe even more so. So...drafting 325+ points of OM intensive support for a 100-point squad of 3 AND grabbing height means this 25-point (and that is up for debate) filler unit is too powerful?! :confused:

Btw, the D20 aspect makes this power a bit too busy, and it really feels forced quite honestly, out of place even.It's there for Dan for now, yes, but there could be another sniper in the future that used a d20 power (even the same one). Let's not forget that Dan is ridiculously weak, so there's really no harm in this slight boost to him.
My biggest problem with that line though is that it is weighing this power down. You have the Spotters giving the Snipers 3 freaking powers in what appears to be just one. It is a lot rolled into one, I think I remember you criticizing Wolfhunter for that, and your current power looks a lot like something he would create.What exactly did I criticize wulf on? I honestly don't remember, though it's quite possible I did. All 3 of those 'powers' that are rolled into one, though, are thematically what it means to a sniper to have 'assisted observation.'

[Griffin]

They don't fit with our universe.
Allow me to be blunt - that is retarded. There is absolutely no reason to leave out those compatibilities, especially when there was a push to have Colossus work with Fighters. :roll:No, there is a reason, I don't like it. ;) My personal preference isn't retarded, your occasional inability to to take criticism in a mature way kinda is though. :p As far as the Colossus thing goes, I never said that or supported it.
I didn't say you did, but it was there. And it was also retarded. ;)Well, it takes one to know one. :D


Plus, the Omnicrons will absolutely dominate the game... no playtesting required on that, I know.This from the guy who just said "playtesting has its own vote and is our highest honored member." :roll: Omnicrons may be a B in the power rankings, but they really need support to even compete against something like the 4th. And that's at 100 points already for a 3-man squad.I don't need to playtest it because I have already played the crap out of the Omnicrons for the past 3 years. I know that with Taelord, Captain A, height, and your Snipers, it is just toooooooo much, you should know that, and accept it. You are wrong, and that is OK, it happens. ;) In fact, I think it may be too powerful for this unit as well, maybe even more so. So...drafting 325+ points of OM intensive support for a 100-point squad of 3 AND grabbing height means this 25-point (and that is up for debate) filler unit is too powerful?! :confused:Yes, too powerful. Who the heck plays a 325 point game? I would take this sniper army with the expensive support units every single day of the week and crush all Super Heroes.

Btw, the D20 aspect makes this power a bit too busy, and it really feels forced quite honestly, out of place even.It's there for Dan for now, yes, but there could be another sniper in the future that used a d20 power (even the same one). Let's not forget that Dan is ridiculously weak, so there's really no harm in this slight boost to him.
My biggest problem with that line though is that it is weighing this power down. You have the Spotters giving the Snipers 3 freaking powers in what appears to be just one. It is a lot rolled into one, I think I remember you criticizing Wolfhunter for that, and your current power looks a lot like something he would create.What exactly did I criticize wulf on? I honestly don't remember, though it's quite possible I did. All 3 of those 'powers' that are rolled into one, though, are thematically what it means to a sniper to have 'assisted observation.'It was his Martial Art power that rolled a few powers up into one, I believe.


Don't you think it is OK to just leave DED as is, and not have to try and boost him? I mean, does he really need it? And does this power really need 3 powers in one? Btw, even if you don't like my personal preferences, you should still look at the structure of my wording, it is short and sweet, and I think it could really help you sell your desired power. Don't tell anyone I did anything nice for you though... :)

[NecroBlade]

Yes, too powerful. Who the heck plays a 325 point game? I would take this sniper army with the expensive support units every single day of the week and crush all Super Heroes.
No one plays 325 point games (*and that was actually 425 points) that I know of, but the majority of games are 500 points. Even at 650, you could only do
220 Cap
200 Crons x2
180 Tae
050 Spotter x2
and have a whopping 7 offensively decent figures, with your ideal situation requiring at least 4 OMs (Cap, Tae, Spotter, Crons) and accessible height to set up.

It was his Martial Art power that rolled a few powers up into one, I believe.
If it's the same one that's on his Green Arrow, it's basically Disengage and Counter Strike...though reading it again, it's actually got some subtlety in that last line that makes it better off as one power.

Don't you think it is OK to just leave DED as is, and not have to try and boost him? I mean, does he really need it?
It would be OK to leave DED as is, but he does need it because he sucks (and I like snipers and sniper should have better than a 50/50 shot at best). Not to mention it's not as fun or Heroscape-y to completely ignore an easily-included and thematically-justified synergy.

And does this power really need 3 powers in one?
I think all '3 powers' are reasonable and easy to understand after reading it through. Does anyone else feel this way? And if so what are some possible solutions (aside from deleting 1/3 of the power)?

Btw, even if you don't like my personal preferences, you should still look at the structure of my wording, it is short and sweet, and I think it could really help you sell your desired power. Don't tell anyone I did anything nice for you though... :)I did, and it doesn't because it's not the whole power. The first part also could be misinterpreted as always being "on" and not contingent on the Spotter having LoS.

[IAmBatman]

OK, you guys both give retarded people bad names, so in respect of their community's desire to shun you two, I don't think we should call either of you retarded anymore. :-P
That said, I have no issues with this having cross synergies with Valhalla stuff, nor do I feel it would be in any way broken.
I am kind of not loving the three powers combined in one on this card, though. Is there any way we can break this up into more than one power, cut something, simplify it, etc.? It's just a bit too busy for my tastes right now.

[A3n]

The wording is easily understandable, but does read a little clumsily. I don't mind the 3 powers in 1 personally. I do like the synergy with DED because if you are putting a rag-tag team together a sniper would always prefer to have a spotter no matter who trained them. & I think it's a must that we try bridge the divide between the two universes when an opportunity presents itself. My question is does this wording really mean DED gets to his SA if he has moved? I'm not 100% sure it does override the wording in the SA.

Cheers

[Griffin]

If a Sniper rolls a blank and one skull while using the spotters power, how many total skulls does the Sniper receive?

[Griffin]

OK, I considered it a bit more, and I am persuaded by A3n's points that the cross synergies with the spotters and all snipers is cool, fun, a great way of getting some older units back into the mix. I like that, and I am on board with it. Though I still really dislike the 3 in 1 power. I would like to see the D20 line gone. It is only gonna give DED a 5% boost to his special attack, and that is just not enough to warrant such a burdensome power IMO.

[A3n]

OK, I considered it a bit more, and I am persuaded by A3n's points that the cross synergies with the spotters and all snipers is cool, fun, a great way of getting some older units back into the mix. I like that, and I am on board with it. Though I still really dislike the 3 in 1 power. I would like to see the D20 line gone. It is only gonna give DED a 5% boost to his special attack, and that is just not enough to warrant such a burdensome power IMO.

I was actually also thinking that the +1 to the d20 was a bit too much bother for the little it added. But I wasn't against it because it was a 3 in 1 power.

Cheers

[NecroBlade]

My question is does this wording really mean DED gets to his SA if he has moved? I'm not 100% sure it does override the wording in the SA.

Cheers
note that DED's special attack can never be modified, so the Spotter only helps out his normal attack and special power.

Way ahead of you again. ;)

If a Sniper rolls a blank and one skull while using the spotters power, how many total skulls does the Sniper receive?
3. The blank counts as a hit, not a skull.

OK, I considered it a bit more, and I am persuaded by A3n's points that the cross synergies with the spotters and all snipers is cool, fun, a great way of getting some older units back into the mix. I like that, and I am on board with it. Though I still really dislike the 3 in 1 power. I would like to see the D20 line gone. It is only gonna give DED a 5% boost to his special attack, and that is just not enough to warrant such a burdensome power IMO.

I was actually also thinking that the +1 to the d20 was a bit too much bother for the little it added. But I wasn't against it because it was a 3 in 1 power.

Cheers
Would +2 do it for you? That doubles his chances. Don't forget it is receiving a boost already in that he can move and shoot in the same turn. I want to be careful about making insta-kill too good. This seems like something playtesting would help with again.

[A3n]

Would +2 do it for you? That doubles his chances. Don't forget it is receiving a boost already in that he can move and shoot in the same turn. I want to be careful about making insta-kill too good. This seems like something playtesting would help with again.
It would make it better.

This is confusing I don't have the DED card in front of me, but did you agree that this power wouldn't allow DED to use his SA to because it can't override the "can't shoot if moved this turn" rule? If so then the only boost he's getting is the d20 increase right :??

Cheers

[NecroBlade]

http://www.hasbro.com/common/images/heroscape/characters/master/80C371A8-73E6-4D25-B073-DE3BACD09201.jpg

His normal attack is affected (blanks count as hits), his special POWER can be affected (shoot after moving), but special ATTACKS can never be modified.

[GreyOwl]

http://www.hasbro.com/common/images/heroscape/characters/master/80C371A8-73E6-4D25-B073-DE3BACD09201.jpg

His normal attack is affected (blanks count as hits), his special POWER can be affected (shoot after moving), but special ATTACKS can never be modified.


Actually, special attacks can be modified by other special powers that explicitly state so. They just can't be modified by normal game mechanics, like height. But it would be perfectly valid to create a special power that stated "All enemy figures roll 1 less attack die when attacking X with a special attack." There's a whole list of reasons why this would not be a good idea, but it would be "legal".

None of that affects your power, though. :p

[NecroBlade]

No, they can't. Sujoah's Posiong Sting doesn't get any benefit from the Glyph of Lodin. They can't be modified, period.

[IAmBatman]

I am kind of not loving the three powers combined in one on this card. Is there any way we can break this up into more than one power, cut something, simplify it, etc.? It's just a bit too busy for my tastes right now.

[GreyOwl]

No, they can't. Sujoah's Posiong Sting doesn't get any benefit from the Glyph of Lodin. They can't be modified, period.


That specific case doesn't fit my example, though, because the Glyph of Lodin doesn't specifically state that it modifies special attacks. Since the rulebook says "special attacks cannot be modified", you can't assume that the Glyph of Lodin would modify it. However, every special power breaks one of the rules in the rulebook, so if you want to break that one I don't see why you couldn't, as long as you're explicit about it. That being said, so far no power has broken that rule, and I think there are other reasons for not doing so. So even though I think you could do it, I don't think it's a good idea.

[Griffin]

No, they can't. Sujoah's Posiong Sting doesn't get any benefit from the Glyph of Lodin. They can't be modified, period.

I modify special attacks all the time. Have you ever played with the Elf Wizards of Ullar (Chardris and Jorhdawn)? They allow for modifying the special attacks.
Instead of saying "They can't be modified, period." (that just sounds kinda douche bagy and arrogant), you should take a look at the rule book which states:
Special Attack: Some special powers are in the form of a "Special
Attack." A special attack is a type of special power that can be used
only instead of a figure's normal attack. However, special attacks
are covered under a separate set of rules from special powers: They
can never be modified by height advantage, Glyphs, or other special powers. See also: Special Powers.So where DED Special Attack can not be modified by "other special powers", any special attack could be modified by itself if it were written that way, which means GreyOwl was partially right. Special Attacks can be modified, but only by themselves.

With that said, I am not sure anymore if the first line in your power would benefit DED's special attack, because it is technically "another special power" that is modifying (changing) his Special Attack.
All Snipers you control can target figures within clear sight of this S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter for attacks and special powers even if the Sniper moved during its turn.I am aware that you probably only define Modifying as adding or subtracting to dice, but that is not defined in the rule book. However, the most basic definition of modifying is to make minor changes (Merriam Websters Dictionary), and allowing DED to move and use his Special Attack is in fact a change.

[GreyOwl]

Special Attack: Some special powers are in the form of a "Special
Attack." A special attack is a type of special power that can be used
only instead of a figure's normal attack. However, special attacks
are covered under a separate set of rules from special powers: They
can never be modified by height advantage, Glyphs, or other special powers. See also: Special Powers.So where DED Special Attack can not be modified by "other special powers", any special attack could be modified by itself if it were written that way, which means GreyOwl was partially right. Special Attacks can be modified, but only by themselves.

But see, that's just a rule. And special powers can break rules, so why not that one?

[Griffin]

Special Attack: Some special powers are in the form of a "Special
Attack." A special attack is a type of special power that can be used
only instead of a figure's normal attack. However, special attacks
are covered under a separate set of rules from special powers: They
can never be modified by height advantage, Glyphs, or other special powers. See also: Special Powers.So where DED Special Attack can not be modified by "other special powers", any special attack could be modified by itself if it were written that way, which means GreyOwl was partially right. Special Attacks can be modified, but only by themselves.

But see, that's just a rule. And special powers can break rules, so why not that one?I honestly agree with you GO, but Necro's purist stance against your opinion means that this Spotter power doesn't work for DeD according to his stance on Special Attacks "never being modified". I just wanted to point that out. ;)

[Griffin]

However, and for the record, I believe that if another special power were to "modify" a special attack, it would have to be explicit and specific in details, meaning character names, special power names, exact mechanics, etc.

[NecroBlade]

I know a special attack can 'modify' itself...because that's part of the special power. :roll: It's not a 'purist stance' it's the rules. Don't make me get :gb: in here.

[Griffin]

Don't make me get :gb: in here.
Why, you gunning for Scaper of the Decade? :lol:

[Grungebob]

Since when did you guys start antagonizing each other? This is disappointing.

If you design a power that functions on blank sides of the dice, what happens when folks use the old red and blue dice like I do?

[IAmBatman]

Since when did you guys start antagonizing each other? This is disappointing.

If you design a power that functions on blank sides of the dice, what happens when folks use the old red and blue dice like I do?

It's all part of our process. ;)
As for the blank thing ... we've been using that mechanic since The World's Finest and Superman. And we covered your question in our rulebook (http://www.hiddendragon.com/hs_customs/C3G/C3G%20World%27s%20Finest%20-%20Rulebook.pdf) - page 4, "A Note About Dice."

[Griffin]

So Necro, do you believe that DED's Special Attack can benefit from the ASSISTED OBSERVATION special power, in that he can still use the attack even though he moved?
I ask because you had said that Special Attacks couldn't be modified period, but you were talking about his attack dice I believe, not the rest of the power.
Personally, I see them as one in the same. They would both be classified as modifiers to the special attack, and so unless specifically stated, the Special Attack would not benefit from ASSISTED OBSERVATION per the game rules.

[Griffin]

Also, I would really like that ASSISTED OBSERVATION power trimmed. It just seems busy, and that last line about the D20 just seems forced and out of place, as though we were trying to boost every sniper and their specific abilities in one power.

[Griffin]

I like the name/title of Spotter, but I wonder if the class should be Agent. I would like it if they were not the same, also, I am hoping that Nick Fury will have a fantastic movement power for agents you control, something called like FIELD SUPPORT, which could allow him to move up to 6 agents you control 4 spaces instead of taking a turn with him (Nick Fury)... something along those lines would be cool, and it would give more use to official agents as well, which I know you like. Anyways, just some thoughts.

[NecroBlade]

I was always talking about the movement part, not the dice, in regards to DED's special attack.

I understand most others seem to want the power trimmed, but aside from just removing that portion of the power, I have yet to see any other suggestions (like what two separate powers might look like).

There are SHIELD Agents for us to do eventually. I prefer spotter for this one, because it's one of those quirky Heroscape things that certain races/classes match the units' names. Also, if we do make "SHIELD Agents" a unit, every SHIELD unit will be "SHIELD _____" with a matching class. Then perhaps Fury can work with anything with "SHIELD" in its name.

Also, it's called the edit button. ;)

[Griffin]

What can I say? I am impulsive, dramatic, and like to hear myself talk. ;) But at least I admit it. :lol:

You made all good points above btw.

[NecroBlade]

Perhaps I should further clarify that I believe that neither the movement part nor the dice are affected...just so everyone's clear on what "special attacks can never be modified" means. :D

[Griffin]

Perhaps I should further clarify that I believe that neither the movement part nor the dice are affected...just so everyone's clear on what "special attacks can never be modified" means. :D
That helps. :) I honestly thought that you did not consider the movement aspect as a "modifier". I am glad we are finally on the same page, or at least getting there. ;)

[A3n]

Perhaps I should further clarify that I believe that neither the movement part nor the dice are affected...just so everyone's clear on what "special attacks can never be modified" means. :D


So are we saying we can't add 1 to the d20 roll or we can? :confused:

[NecroBlade]

Yes, you can add to the d20, because again the d20 is part of his special POWER not his special ATTACK. :teach:

[Griffin]

special power is completely different from special attack.


:ninja:

[IAmBatman]

ASSISTED OBSERVATION
All Snipers you control can target figures within clear sight of this S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter for attacks and special powers even if the Sniper moved during its turn.

IMPROVED TARGETING or STEADY HANDS or STEADY FIRE or ASSISTED AIM
When a Sniper you control attacks a figure within clear sight of at least one S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter, each blank rolled counts for one additional hit. When a Sniper you control rolls the 20-sided for an opponent's figure within clear sight of at least one S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter, add 1 to your roll.


I think it's as simple as that. Making it two powers instead of one would do it. Though I do think that combining deadly shot and blanks counting for hits could end up being a bit confusing ... is there any way we can boost attack effectiveness without using the blank mechanic and without making the sniper attacks too powerful (as adding a straight up attack die would likely do)?

[Griffin]

I would just like the D20 power aspect gone.

Height boosting camo, terrain boosting camo, allowing movement to snipers, altering the blank, and boosting a D20... the entire card is too busy for a little common like this.

[whitestuff]

Why would a highly trained shield agent have the same attack as an Arrow Grut?

[Hahma]

Why would a highly trained shield agent have the same attack as an Arrow Grut?

I don't know. I asked the same thing about the Sniper in melee combat. I guess it's to push the use of them for sniping and keeping their cost down.

[whitestuff]

Why would a highly trained shield agent have the same attack as an Arrow Grut?

I don't know. I asked the same thing about the Sniper in melee combat. I guess it's to push the use of them for sniping and keeping their cost down.But other 25 point Common Heroes don't only get 1 attack. Four other 25 point heroes and their attacks are... 4, 4, 3 & 2.

Man I love that Battleplan (http://battleplan.mythacle.com/heroscape/#) site:D

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, but the other 25 point Common Heroes aren't adding so much attack potential to other figures.

[A3n]

Man I love that Battleplan (http://battleplan.mythacle.com/heroscape/#) site:D

I mentioned before that if anybody knew the people behind it that we should try to get the C3G cards included. Now that would be cool.

Cheers

[GreyOwl]

His name is Jay Cain. I just sent him an email asking him about adding C3G, so we'll see what he says...

[A3n]

His name is Jay Cain. I just sent him an email asking him about adding C3G, so we'll see what he says...

I just found the thread (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1093050&postcount=187)where you can vote for additions to battleplan so go over & vote for the C3G additions now.

Cheers

[Hahma]

Why would a highly trained shield agent have the same attack as an Arrow Grut?

I don't know. I asked the same thing about the Sniper in melee combat. I guess it's to push the use of them for sniping and keeping their cost down.But other 25 point Common Heroes don't only get 1 attack. Four other 25 point heroes and their attacks are... 4, 4, 3 & 2.

Man I love that Battleplan (http://battleplan.mythacle.com/heroscape/#) site:D

Yeah, but the other 25 point Common Heroes aren't adding so much attack potential to other figures.

Truthfully, these Spotters might not ever get to attack very often as they will have a big target painted on their head. If there are a number of them, both teams will be using OMs on these guys, either to move them into position or to kill them. So both players will have opportunities to decide how valuable they really are to use OMs on when they have other units to either activate or kill.

[Griffin]

Truthfully, these Spotters might not ever get to attack very often as they will have a big target painted on their head. If there are a number of them, both teams will be using OMs on these guys, either to move them into position or to kill them. So both players will have opportunities to decide how valuable they really are to use OMs on when they have other units to either activate or kill.That is why I really wanted them as "Agent" so Nick Fury could hopefully have a movement power for all Agents to help this combo out, and give more use to the official Agents as well.

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, I think Agent would be cool for that reason as well. :-)

[Hahma]

I agree for them to be Agents.

All of S.H.I.E.L.D. units should be agents so that Nick Fury can have a power that can do something for all of them. He's a leader and one of his powers could be like Cyclops' Telepathic Rapport, but it could be something like

Field Director
After revealing an OM on this card, instead of attacking, you may take a turn with either 1 squad of Agents or 1 Agent Hero that you control.

[Griffin]

There are SHIELD Agents for us to do eventually. I prefer spotter for this one, because it's one of those quirky Heroscape things that certain races/classes match the units' names. Also, if we do make "SHIELD Agents" a unit, every SHIELD unit will be "SHIELD _____" with a matching class. Then perhaps Fury can work with anything with "SHIELD" in its name.

Because Necro isn't here right now, I thought I would throw this up to remind every one of Necro's view on Agents.

[IAmBatman]

How would Necro's proposed power for Fury work in a way that felt official, though?
"Units with S.H.I.E.L.D. in their name" doesn't cut it for me ...

[Griffin]

How would Necro's proposed power for Fury work in a way that felt official, though?
"Units with S.H.I.E.L.D. in their name" doesn't cut it for me ...
That was exactly what I thought.

[GreyOwl]

Maybe he meant that Nick Fury's power would reference specifically "SHIELD Agents, SHIELD Snipers, or SHIELD Spotters"?

[NecroBlade]

How would Necro's proposed power for Fury work in a way that felt official, though?
"Units with S.H.I.E.L.D. in their name" doesn't cut it for me ...
You guys slay me with what you think 'feels official' and what doesn't. Sometimes it's completely OK to go off the wall and do something that's never been done before (sort of the whole reason you started the project, no?) and other times you're utterly resistant to something new (like I have been and probably will be, we just don't match up).

As for the Spotter's potency, I was actually planning on suggesting changing Range from 5 to 7 and attack from 1 to 2. Not sure what to do with the Sniper yet, if anything.

[IAmBatman]

I'm cool with Range 7 and Attack 2, putting the Spotter closer to other Agents in the game (I still think the Spotter should be an Agent :-P ).
Unless some of those synergies were muted a bit, though, I think this would bump their cost.

[GreyOwl]

How would Necro's proposed power for Fury work in a way that felt official, though?
"Units with S.H.I.E.L.D. in their name" doesn't cut it for me ...
You guys slay me with what you think 'feels official' and what doesn't. Sometimes it's completely OK to go off the wall and do something that's never been done before (sort of the whole reason you started the project, no?) and other times you're utterly resistant to something new (like I have been and probably will be, we just don't match up).

So wait...we're rubbing off on you and you're rubbing off on us, so now we're switching places?:shock: :p

In all seriousness, I think you've done a lot to convince us to be more official on a lot of things (granted, not everything, but still). So don't be surprised if you sometimes finding leaning that direction.

[NecroBlade]

I'm cool with Range 7 and Attack 2, putting the Spotter closer to other Agents in the game (I still think the Spotter should be an Agent :-P ).
Unless some of those synergies were muted a bit, though, I think this would bump their cost.
I agree (about the cost). 25 was just a suggested starting point, nothing more. Then again, that's still a really weak, single attack per OM. About Agents, there are already a lot of Agents in the game, so I don't know if Fury should be working with them anyway. I think it would be more appropriate for SHIELD to be cohesive.

ASSISTED OBSERVATION
All Snipers you control can target figures within clear sight of this S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter for attacks and special powers even if the Sniper moved during its turn.

IMPROVED TARGETING or STEADY HANDS or STEADY FIRE or ASSISTED AIM
When a Sniper you control attacks a figure within clear sight of at least one S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter, each blank rolled counts for one additional hit. When a Sniper you control rolls the 20-sided for an opponent's figure within clear sight of at least one S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter, add 1 to your roll.


I think it's as simple as that. Making it two powers instead of one would do it. Though I do think that combining deadly shot and blanks counting for hits could end up being a bit confusing ... is there any way we can boost attack effectiveness without using the blank mechanic and without making the sniper attacks too powerful (as adding a straight up attack die would likely do)?
This is exactly the kind of suggestion I was looking for and I think it accomplishes uncluttering the power nicely. As for the blank thing...hey, you guys started it. ;) I was trying to avoid simply adding an attack die, since as you said, that might overpower things. Maybe a one-time re-roll like Empress Kiova's power for the Imperium's defense?

[IAmBatman]

I think the one time re-roll might be better here. I don't mind the use of the blank, I just think it could cause some confusion in tandem with deadly shot. The re-roll approach would avoid that. Good idea! :-)

[NecroBlade]

First post updated.

[Grungebob]

IMPROVED AIM
When you roll attack dice for any Sniper you control for an attack against an opponent's figure within clear sight of at least one S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter, you may re-roll all attack dice that did not show skulls once. When a Sniper you control rolls the 20-sided for an opponent's figure within clear sight of at least one S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter, add 1 to your roll.This is definitely the way to go with this. I do think the wording needs to be refined, but the principle mechanic is solid and ready to be tested.

[NecroBlade]

Do you have any suggestions for the wording?

[Griffin]

I would like to see the name of IMPROVED AIM changed to IMPROVED TARGETING.

My suggested wording based directly off of Empress Kiova:

IMPROVED TARGETING
When you roll attack dice for any Sniper you control against an opponent's figure that is within clear sight of at least one S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter you control, you may re-roll all attack dice that did not show skulls once. When a Sniper you control rolls the 20-sided for an opponent's figure within clear sight of at least one S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter, add 1 to your roll.

[A3n]

I would like to see the name of IMPROVED AIM changed to IMPROVED TARGETING.

My suggested wording based directly off of Empress Kiova:

IMPROVED TARGETING
When you roll attack dice for any Sniper you control against an opponent's figure that is within clear sight of at least one S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter you control, you may re-roll all attack dice that did not show skulls. When a Sniper you control rolls the 20-sided for an opponent's figure within clear sight of at least one S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter, add 1 to your roll.

Does it need to state that you can only reroll the attack dice once?

Cheers

[NecroBlade]

That's why I had that in there. My wording was based on Kiova's, too.

[Griffin]

That word "once" was left off accidentally. Check it out now.

[NecroBlade]

So all you did was take out 'for an attack'? I think that helps make the wording clearer.

[Griffin]

So all you did was take out 'for an attack'? I think that helps make the wording clearer.

I thought it sounded weird, and Kiova doesn't say "for a defense". :p

[NecroBlade]

Right, but "for any Sniper you control" is in there between "when you roll attack dice" and "against an opponent's figure." I dunno, Bats is the English guy, maybe he can explain it.

[IAmBatman]

They both look fine to me. :-)
Anyway, the mechanics are settled, which is the important part. We can haggle over precise wording in the final editing phase if we want to.
I think this is ready for an initial playtest.

[NecroBlade]

I'll try to do initial playtests in the next couple days, but if not I have 12 hour works days this week... :bang:

[Griffin]

Great, I have to watch Necro kill himself twice in one day... how cheerful. :razz:

All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.

[NecroBlade]

SHIELD Spotter Initial Playtest

Omnicron Snipers x2, SHIELD Spotter x2 (250)
vs
Marro Stingers x4 (240)
on
Fulcrum by Dignan

Round 1:
With Initiative, a Spotter moves to a spot by a bush that will provide jungle cover and possibly height. Two Omnicrons are able to get shots at the advancing Stingers. The first is granted a re-roll by Improved Aim, but still doesn't manage a skull. The other rolls a skull but it's blocked. Only one Stinger returns fire, the Marro opting to advance en masse. A Cron goes down. A Cron engages that Stinger from height, rolls 2 blanks, and fails on the re-roll again. The other two Crons also require re-rolls, but only manage one skull, though it kills a Stinger. Three Stingers make shots this time, one on the Cron on the hill, miss. One on the advanced Spotter, 2 skulls blocked by 3 shields (5 defense dice thanks to a bush and Adaptive Camouflage). And one more dead Omnicron.
Round 2:
Stingers win Initiative and make 3 more attacks. 4 dice on 5 still can't hit the Spotter. and the two Crons under fire defend themselves. A Cron snipes the Stinger on one hill point blank and another fires from height. It rolls 2 skulls (1 plus a re-roll) but the defending Marro blanked on defense anyway. The last Cron re-rolls 2 shields into 1 skull, 1 shield, but the Stinger blocks. Stingers successfully Drain, but can't manage more than 2 skulls against the Spotter and only defeat 1 more Cron. A re-roll results in 1 skull (instead of 2 blanks) and the Crons take down 2 Marro. Stingers Drain again, but nothing happens and all their shots are ineffective. Expecting more Omnicron losses, a Spotter takes the final turn this round, but misses.
Round 3:
Stingers get Initiative again, Drain, succeed, finally kill the Spotter and take 2 more Crons with. The lone remaining Cron takes height, re-rolls a 1-skull attack into 2 skulls, and the defender blanks (oddly enough on the same space as the earlier 2-skulls-vs-0-shields attack). Two Stingers engage and kill the last Omnicron. Luckily, the SHIELD Spotter had the rest of the OMs. His attack isn't enough to crack a Stinger in the jungle on height. A Stinger engages the Spotter to negate AC and SHIELD is defeated.

Winner and Results: Stingers with 6 remaining. This is a pretty good match-up for the Stingers, having solid stats (though they had trouble with luck not letting them hit a Camo'd Spotter), no OM management required (which hurt Team SHIELD slightly), and superior numbers. However, the Spotters performed just as they should. It would've been nice for one to kill a Stinger at some point, but setting one up early to help get Omnicrons Improved Aim came in handy often, even if most of the re-roll results ended up being useless (0 skulls) or overkill (blanked defense). They fulfilled their role nicely and had Initiative gone their way more often (or had I kept that one OM on the Omnicrons) this game could've turned around.

I did do a couple army tests (Wolverine, 3x Stingers [460] vs SHIELD Spotter x4, Omnicron Snipers x3, Deadeye Dan [460]) but the results were unhelpful at best.

In game 1, DED rolled a natural 20 on Wolverine on R1T4. The Spotter DID allow him to move AND shoot, but he could've actually made the shot anyway, all SHIELD did was leave him in a better position afterward. Their team actually only lost 1 Omnicron before all the Stingers were dead, since the Marro were fighting a literal uphill battle the whole way. In game 2, DED again got lucky on Wolverine (19, so no help again from the Spotter), though the Mutant was able to take out a few enemies first. The Stingers took out a few more, but it was a lopsided result again.

"Heavy Hitter"

SHIELD Spotter
vs
Dumutef Guard

1: Dumutef wins initiative, takes cover, but dies to 2 skulls from height (1 shield).
2: Dumutef wins initiative, takes cover, but dies to 3 skulls from height (1 shield).
3: Spotter wins initiative, takes height, misses (0 skulls), blocks 3 skulls from low ground (3 shields), misses (0 skulls), dies to 3 skulls from low ground (1 shield).

SHIELD Spotter
vs
Guilty McCreech

4: Initiative Spotter, who camps by a bush. Guilty gets the first attack, but 0 skulls and 2 skulls blocked (4 shields on 7 defense dice). Spotter rolls 2 skulls from height, scores 1 wound. Guilty takes height and kills the Spotter (2 skulls vs 1 shield in 5).
5: Game starts same as the last, but Guilty wins in the first attack this time, 1 skull vs 0 shields out of 7.

[Griffin]

Great work Necro. :up:
This test seemed somewhat fair, even though the Stingers had the advantage with great Order Marker management (like you said). Still, I think that the Spotters could possibly end up costing as little as 10 points with that test.

[A3n]

Any ideas what comic images we are going to use for this one?

Cheers

[Griffin]

This is the best I could find:
http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/7000000/agent-of-the-shield-marvel-comics-7017391-1000-1500.jpg

[Griffin]

The pants could stand to be a bit darker and less flesh toned, but here:
http://www.bluemango.fr/images/artists/devon%20cady-lee/Sniper__s_Breath_Colored.jpg

[whitestuff]

Maybe we need pics of the dark-haired Maria Hill? I don't think that there is a heroclix figure for that name...

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb279/bwhit89/c3g/34exq3b.jpg
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb279/bwhit89/c3g/143341-127881-maria-hill.jpg
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb279/bwhit89/c3g/Mariahill.png

[A3n]

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb279/bwhit89/c3g/34exq3b.jpg

Ok, I know my mind is in the gutter 90% of the time but the bottom of that zipper looks seriously suspect. :shock:

[Griffin]

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb279/bwhit89/c3g/34exq3b.jpg

Ok, I know my mind is in the gutter 90% of the time but the bottom of that zipper looks seriously suspect. :shock:
Are you suggesting that you see a
http://www.stripersonline.com/surftalk/attachment.php?attachmentid=278404&d=1252932520

[whitestuff]

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb279/bwhit89/c3g/34exq3b.jpg

Ok, I know my mind is in the gutter 90% of the time but the bottom of that zipper looks seriously suspect. :shock:
Are you suggesting that you see a
http://www.stripersonline.com/surftalk/attachment.php?attachmentid=278404&d=1252932520
:lol: How many google image's pages did you have to go through to find that? :lol:

I was going to suggest this one but...
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb279/bwhit89/c3g/InvincibleIronMan163.jpg

[Griffin]

Only one or two, it is easier to find the less offensive pics for the search "Camel Toe" with the child settings on. :)

[NecroBlade]

I like the second one Griff posted. She's got an assault rifle and isn't Maria Hill (I'd just rather not used a named character if we can help it, 'clix or not).

[GreyOwl]

I agree, especially since someone may actually make a Maria Hill card.

[Griffin]

OK, so Necro has done a squad test, that leaves five Heavy Hitter tests and two Army Tests.

Necro, can we expect you to do those anytime soon, or do you think that you may need some help?

[NecroBlade]

I did do a couple army tests (Wolverine, 3x Stingers [460] vs SHIELD Spotter x4, Omnicron Snipers x3, Deadeye Dan [460]) but the results were unhelpful at best.

In game 1, DED rolled a natural 20 on Wolverine on R1T4. The Spotter DID allow him to move AND shoot, but he could've actually made the shot anyway, all SHIELD did was leave him in a better position afterward. Their team actually only lost 1 Omnicron before all the Stingers were dead, since the Marro were fighting a literal uphill battle the whole way. In game 2, DED again got lucky on Wolverine (19, so no help again from the Spotter), though the Mutant was able to take out a few enemies first. The Stingers took out a few more, but it was a lopsided result again.

The only suggestion I would've made based on those games was to allow a sniper to re-roll ONE die (rather than all) once. I played game 2 above that way and it did make a difference when the Stingers made their go at the Omnicrons. In contrast, though, re-rolling all (2 at most) dice in the 250-point test I posted didn't help much at all.

(Sorry for taking so long to get all this posted. :?)

[Griffin]

I did do a couple army tests (Wolverine, 3x Stingers [460] vs SHIELD Spotter x4, Omnicron Snipers x3, Deadeye Dan [460]) but the results were unhelpful at best.

In game 1, DED rolled a natural 20 on Wolverine on R1T4. The Spotter DID allow him to move AND shoot, but he could've actually made the shot anyway, all SHIELD did was leave him in a better position afterward. Their team actually only lost 1 Omnicron before all the Stingers were dead, since the Marro were fighting a literal uphill battle the whole way. In game 2, DED again got lucky on Wolverine (19, so no help again from the Spotter), though the Mutant was able to take out a few enemies first. The Stingers took out a few more, but it was a lopsided result again.

The only suggestion I would've made based on those games was to allow a sniper to re-roll ONE die (rather than all) once. I played game 2 above that way and it did make a difference when the Stingers made their go at the Omnicrons. In contrast, though, re-rolling all (2 at most) dice in the 250-point test I posted didn't help much at all.

(Sorry for taking so long to get all this posted. :?)

Dead Eye Dan - "Spotters? I don't need not stinkin Spotters" :lol:

Looks like old Dead Eye just had an exceptional game. I do like your suggested change though; spotters allowing snipers to reroll only one die. Also, I think that we could power check these guys slightly by adding a range stipulation on their spotter power.

IMPROVED AIM
When you roll attack dice for any Sniper you control for a normal attack against an opponent's figure that is within 6 clear sight spaces of at least one S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter you control, you may re-roll one attack die that did not show a skull. When a Sniper you control rolls the 20-sided for an opponent's figure that is within 6 clear sight spaces of at least one S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter you control, add 1 to your roll.

Above is the power from the first page with some changes in red.

first part of the first line is the normal attack specification for possible future clarity
second part of the first line is a limitation on range
third part of the first line clarifies whose Spotter actually boosts the attack
fourth part of the first line is changed to only rolling one die instead of all
first part of the second line is a limitation on range
third part of the second line clarifies whose Spotter actually boosts the attack

[NecroBlade]

I have to heartily disagree with a range of 6 spaces on Improved Aim. While I'd be fine with a cap, it'd have to be 10 spaces. That's the farthest sniping range (Dan) and makes a lot more sense for a "spotter" than a pretty short 6. Also, as I went over early in the design, Spotters aren't meant to be on the front lines, but actually meant to sit/stand/lie right next to snipers.

Also, just off the top of my head, what would you guys think of adding (to Assisted Observation) "After revealing an Order Marker on the Army Card of a sniper you control, you may move a SHIELD Sniper up to 5 spaces." Especially with a limit to the aura, it would help OM management, and makes thematic sense that they'd move around in teams.

[Griffin]

I have to heartily disagree with a range of 6 spaces on Improved Aim. While I'd be fine with a cap, it'd have to be 10 spaces. That's the farthest sniping range (Dan) and makes a lot more sense for a "spotter" than a pretty short 6. Also, as I went over early in the design, Spotters aren't meant to be on the front lines, but actually meant to sit/stand/lie right next to snipers.That makes sense to me, just update my changes with 10 in place of 6 for the front page please. :)
Also, just off the top of my head, what would you guys think of adding (to Assisted Observation) "After revealing an Order Marker on the Army Card of a sniper you control, you may move a SHIELD Sniper up to 5 spaces." Especially with a limit to the aura, it would help OM management, and makes thematic sense that they'd move around in teams.I think that we should not be cramming anymore onto this card. I think that the synergies in terms of movement and such should be saved for our SHIELD Agent Unique Heroes.

[IAmBatman]

I like the current direction and agree with not adding any more to the powers. It sounds like they're destined to be a cheap support unit, but wasn't that always kind of the plan?

[NecroBlade]

That's exactly the idea, Bats.

Power and change log updated.

[IAmBatman]

This one is getting close. But there's still more initial testing to be done, correct?

[Hahma]

IMPROVED AIM
When you roll attack dice for any Sniper you control for a normal attack against an opponent's figure that is within 10 clear sight spaces of at least one S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter you control, you may re-roll one attack die that did not show a skull. When a Sniper you control rolls the 20-sided for an opponent's figure that is within 10 clear sight spaces of at least one S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter you control, add 1 to your roll.

I was just wondering if that blued line should be changed to "When a Sniper you control rolls the 20-sided die when attacking an opponent's figure....."

It sounded weird that you'd roll a 20-sided for an opponent's figure, the opponent rolls a 20-sided die for their own figure.

[Griffin]

IMPROVED AIM
When you roll attack dice for any Sniper you control for a normal attack against an opponent's figure that is within 10 clear sight spaces of at least one S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter you control, you may re-roll one attack die that did not show a skull. When a Sniper you control rolls the 20-sided for an opponent's figure that is within 10 clear sight spaces of at least one S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter you control, add 1 to your roll.

I was just wondering if that blued line should be changed to "When a Sniper you control rolls the 20-sided die when attacking an opponent's figure....."

It sounded weird that you'd roll a 20-sided for an opponent's figure, the opponent rolls a 20-sided die for their own figure.

DED is the only Sniper that rolls the 20-sided die, and it is for opponent's figures.

[Hahma]

IMPROVED AIM
When you roll attack dice for any Sniper you control for a normal attack against an opponent's figure that is within 10 clear sight spaces of at least one S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter you control, you may re-roll one attack die that did not show a skull. When a Sniper you control rolls the 20-sided for an opponent's figure that is within 10 clear sight spaces of at least one S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter you control, add 1 to your roll.

I was just wondering if that blued line should be changed to "When a Sniper you control rolls the 20-sided die when attacking an opponent's figure....."

It sounded weird that you'd roll a 20-sided for an opponent's figure, the opponent rolls a 20-sided die for their own figure.

DED is the only Sniper that rolls the 20-sided die, and it is for opponent's figures.

I know it affects the opponent's figures, but it doesn't say roll the d20 for an opponent's figure. Perhaps I worded my suggestion wrong, as it says on DED's card, "instead of attacking" maybe instead it could say, "When a Sniper you control rolls a 20-sided die to affect an opponent's figure..."

So maybe it's just me and I'm goofy (no comment's from the peanut gallery) but it just sounds weird to me to say, "roll a d20 for an opponent's figure". So if nobody else thinks it seems odd, that's cool and nevermind my weirdness. :D

[IAmBatman]

When a Sniper you control rolls the 20-sided die against an Opponent's figure?

[Hahma]

When a Sniper you control rolls the 20-sided die against an Opponent's figure?


That's fine too. It just sounded weird to me for it to say "for and opponent's figure"

[IAmBatman]

I agree with it sounding weird. I'm not 100% sold on my own suggestion there, but I do think it's an improvement at least.

[Griffin]

I guess I will bring it up again, but I don't think that the D20 line should even be there. It is just forced. I mean this is just a way to cram yet another little synergy on the card, and I would like it better if it were gone.

[NecroBlade]

"Heavy Hitter"

SHIELD Spotter
vs
Dumutef Guard

1: Dumutef wins initiative, takes cover, but dies to 2 skulls from height (1 shield).
2: Dumutef wins initiative, takes cover, but dies to 3 skulls from height (1 shield).
3: Spotter wins initiative, takes height, misses (0 skulls), blocks 3 skulls from low ground (3 shields), misses (0 skulls), dies to 3 skulls from low ground (1 shield).

SHIELD Spotter
vs
Guilty McCreech

4: Initiative Spotter, who camps by a bush. Guilty gets the first attack, but 0 skulls and 2 skulls blocked (4 shields on 7 defense dice). Spotter rolls 2 skulls from height, scores 1 wound. Guilty takes height and kills the Spotter (2 skulls vs 1 shield in 5).
5: Game starts same as the last, but Guilty wins in the first attack this time, 1 skull vs 0 shields out of 7.

[IAmBatman]

So ... the heavy hitter tests seem to indicate 25 points is reasonable ... and that's without synergies factored in.

[NecroBlade]

To be fair, though, the Dumutef didn't get to use any of his powers, while the Spotter only used the one.

[IAmBatman]

So 25 is looking likely even with synergies factored in, then? At least thus far (it's early).

[NecroBlade]

Yeah 25 hasn't felt wrong yet at this point. I'm thinking 50 is going to be way too much for the Snipers, though, but I'll talk about that when I get their initial playtest up.

[IAmBatman]

I look forward to it! :-)

[NecroBlade]

OK, I haven't gotten a chance to playtest them together yet (I will do so in the morning), but I propose SHIELD Spotter and SHIELD Sniper move to the ERB phase (who's next to be sent cards?).

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Yeah.

[GreyOwl]

Yea

[A3n]

Yea

[Hahma]

yea

I believe GO sent out the last unit (Bullseye) to ERB, so he can let you know Necro who he sent them to and you can check the list to see who's up next I guess.

[Griffin]

ASSISTED OBSERVATION
All Snipers you control can target figures within clear sight of this S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter for attacks and special powers even if the Sniper moved during its turn.But to only say "target for attacks", I don't think is enough to bypass the Sniper power that clearly says that the Sniper "cannot attack". Yes Targeting is what you do before attacking, but it isn't ATTACKING.

Here is the Sniper Power:
WAIT FOR THE SHOT
S.H.I.E.L.D. Sniper can only attack non-adjacent figures if she did not move this turn.
Here is my wording suggestion, which I don't think is perfect, but in the right direction. It sure would be easier to fix this if we didn't have to include special powers into it....

ASSISTED OBSERVATION
All Snipers you control can use special powers and attack figures within clear sight of this S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter even if the Sniper moved during its turn.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

What if you break it into 2 sentences?

ASSISTED OBSERVATION
All Snipers you control can attack figures within clear sight of this S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter. All Snipers can use special powers when attacking, even if the Sniper moved during its turn.

[Griffin]

What if you break it into 2 sentences?

ASSISTED OBSERVATION
All Snipers you control can attack figures within clear sight of this S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter. All Snipers can use special powers when attacking, even if the Sniper moved during its turn.
That line isn't what Necro is trying to accomplish though. What he wants is for Deadeye Dan to be able to use his Sharpshooter special power even if he moved. The way you worded that last line, implies that there is a detrement power out there on a Sniper that prevents them from using special powers that boost normal attacks if they move, but there isn't anything out there that does that. I personally feel that the last line needs to just go, and we don't have to bend over backwards to make every C3G power boost or alter every single official power. I would be very happy with just this:

ASSISTED OBSERVATION
All Snipers you control can attack figures within clear sight of this S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter. even if the Sniper moved during its turn.

[NecroBlade]

ASSISTED OBSERVATION
All Snipers you control can use special powers against and attack figures within clear sight of this S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter even if the Sniper moved during its turn.

[Griffin]

ASSISTED OBSERVATION
All Snipers you control can use special powers against and attack figures within clear sight of this S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter even if the Sniper moved during its turn.
Even better:

ASSISTED OBSERVATION
All Snipers you control can attack figures within clear sight of this S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter and use any special power on their Army Card even if the Sniper moved during its turn.

[whitestuff]

As soon as you sort out your wording issues, you can have my Yea.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I don't much see a difference, but as long as wording issue is resolved I am happier than a puppy with two peters. :lol:

[Griffin]

I don't much see a difference, but as long as wording issue is resolved I am happier than a puppy with two peters. :lol:
Knick Knack, Paddy Wack, .... . ... . ....

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I don't much see a difference, but as long as wording issue is resolved I am happier than a puppy with two peters. :lol:
Knick Knack, Paddy Wack, .... . ... . ....
Or two!!! ;)

[NecroBlade]

Wording updated, thanks Grif.

[NecroBlade]

120 SHIELD Sniper x3
110 Brunak
075 SHIELD Spotter x3
(305)

vs

200 Batman
100 Marro Dividers x2
(300)

Round 1: SHIELD wins initiative, moving a Spotter to a hill. Batman opens for the other team. Brunak brings a Sniper forward as well. Batman in able to get 'rangs off at all 3, but none of his throws connect. Spotter's re-roll doesn't help the Sniper, who also misses but avoids Evasive Strike. Batman can't quite Grapple to where he wants to be, so he opts for taking a leaving engagement attack from Brunak, miss. He tries the 'rangs again, but only takes out a Spotter.
Round 2: Brunak rolls 3 skulls against Bats, but is hit with Evasive Strike. Batman opts to try to finish Brunak off, but the beast blocks a 4-skull attack. Brunak uses some fancy footwork to transport another Sniper, rolls 4 skulls and is hit again with ES (god I hate that power when it's hot). Batman attacks again and Brunak blanks on Defense. The Sniper poor B sacrificed himself to set up, though, rolls 3 skulls. Batman misses ES and dies.
Round 3: Dividers advance. Another Spotter takes the dead one's place and gets a shot on a Divider, who blanks despite cover. Two Marro are able to attack a Sniper, but he blocks both. The Sniper gets no help from a re-roll, but also doesn't need it to kill a Divider. The next Divider also fails its attack, and a Sniper's return fire is 0 hits, despite a re-roll (maybe I should check my dice for skulls? :p).
Round 4: Marro finally kill the Sniper. A re-roll finally helps a Sniper, who gets enough skulls that a Divider can't defend...but he does roll for Cell Divide! The two remaining Snipers have no luck on defense and go down in the same turn. The Marro Dividers roll all skulls on 2 attacks to finish off SHIELD the next turn.

Winner: Marro Dividers x5.
Result: This was a good game that could've gone either way. Had SHIELD had a little more luck with the combat dice or Batman's team a little less with the d20, SHIELD easily would've come out on top. And it was fun to play, too.

[Griffin]

Nice report Necro. It looks like SHIELD was beaten by the D20. :( I look forward to seeing how the community plays these gals. :up:

[Griffin]

Oh yeah, yea to the ERB. :D

[NecroBlade]

2 hours left on this one. I think it's safe to say they're going to the ERB. Who are the next 2 panelists?

[Griffin]

2 hours left on this one. I think it's safe to say they're going to the ERB. Who are the next 2 panelists?

I don't know. You can do what I do, just pick two names you like. I know that isn't fair to them, but it isn't fair to us to be expected to know who to pick when we don't have a system...

I think that a couple names could be dropped off of the list, and then we could have two lists of names. If you are sending it out to the ERB on an even Date, it goes to one entire list. If you are sending it out to the ERB on an odd Date, it goes to the other. :reapershrug:

[GreyOwl]

It also isn't fair to the rest of us if you always send it to people you like, but we actually go through the rotation and take our chances. ;)

[A3n]

It also isn't fair to the rest of us if you always send it to people you like, but we actually go through the rotation and take our chances. ;)

What's wrong with the way it is at the moment :confused:. it seems to be working fine to me. I keep the last pm sent to the ERB until the next is sent that way I know which ones it went to then I look on the list to see who is after them simple. So long as I am included in each pm to the ERB there isn't an issue except remembering where the list is :p.

Cheers

[whitestuff]

It also isn't fair to the rest of us if you always send it to people you like, but we actually go through the rotation and take our chances. ;)

What's wrong with the way it is at the moment :confused:. it seems to be working fine to me. I keep the last pm sent to the ERB until the next is sent that way I know which ones it went to then I look on the list to see who is after them simple. So long as I am included in each pm to the ERB there isn't an issue except remembering where the list is :p.

Cheers
There is a list? :shock:

[GreyOwl]

It also isn't fair to the rest of us if you always send it to people you like, but we actually go through the rotation and take our chances. ;)

What's wrong with the way it is at the moment :confused:. it seems to be working fine to me. I keep the last pm sent to the ERB until the next is sent that way I know which ones it went to then I look on the list to see who is after them simple. So long as I am included in each pm to the ERB there isn't an issue except remembering where the list is :p.

Cheers

Nothing's wrong with doing it your way. But evidently Griffin has just been sending to 2 people he likes, not the next 2 on the list. That's what I was commenting on.

[Griffin]

It also isn't fair to the rest of us if you always send it to people you like, but we actually go through the rotation and take our chances. ;)

What's wrong with the way it is at the moment :confused:. it seems to be working fine to me. I keep the last pm sent to the ERB until the next is sent that way I know which ones it went to then I look on the list to see who is after them simple. So long as I am included in each pm to the ERB there isn't an issue except remembering where the list is :p.

Cheers

Nothing's wrong with doing it your way. But evidently Griffin has just been sending to 2 people likes, not the next 2 on the list. That's what I was commenting on.
There is a proposal up on a better system. And we can post our list of members around a bit more threads if you guys want to.

[A3n]

It also isn't fair to the rest of us if you always send it to people you like, but we actually go through the rotation and take our chances. ;)

What's wrong with the way it is at the moment :confused:. it seems to be working fine to me. I keep the last pm sent to the ERB until the next is sent that way I know which ones it went to then I look on the list to see who is after them simple. So long as I am included in each pm to the ERB there isn't an issue except remembering where the list is :p.

Cheers

Nothing's wrong with doing it your way. But evidently Griffin has just been sending to 2 people likes, not the next 2 on the list. That's what I was commenting on.
There is a proposal up on a better system. And we can post our list of members around a bit more threads if you guys want to.

I saw that but wanted a bit more discussion about it because I don't think the proposal is better at all, you might as well just send the write to every ERB member.

[Griffin]

It also isn't fair to the rest of us if you always send it to people you like, but we actually go through the rotation and take our chances. ;)

What's wrong with the way it is at the moment :confused:. it seems to be working fine to me. I keep the last pm sent to the ERB until the next is sent that way I know which ones it went to then I look on the list to see who is after them simple. So long as I am included in each pm to the ERB there isn't an issue except remembering where the list is :p.

Cheers

Nothing's wrong with doing it your way. But evidently Griffin has just been sending to 2 people likes, not the next 2 on the list. That's what I was commenting on.
There is a proposal up on a better system. And we can post our list of members around a bit more threads if you guys want to.

I saw that but wanted a bit more discussion about it because I don't think the proposal is better at all, you might as well just send the write to every ERB member.
Well I will stop the proposal then, but please go over there and discuss your concerns, because I can't see how it is the same as sending it to the entire list at all.

[IAmBatman]

In the meantime, Necro should just choose a couple ERB members and get this moving, methinks. No need to hold up progress here while we try to refine the other system.
Honestly, though, I think (and I'd rather discuss that in the voting thread, which will remain private), we might consider removing a few ERB members who haven't participated consistently enough.

[NecroBlade]

Hi Necroblade!

Sorry if I´m a bit late with this, been busy, busy, busy...

Hmm, not much to say about these gals. The sniper shoots people from afar, and the spotter helps. The mechanics seem well thought out, and the rest of the stats, and points cost seem right too. A couple of teams of these seem like they would be fun to play!

It´s hard to come up with anything more, as they are rather more generic than a named superhero, so I can´t say much about wether their theme/personality/powers are translated well into Heroscape´ish...
I also suspect that more S.H.I.E.L.D. squads and heroes are comming in the future, (?) so maybe these two make most sense as part of that faction, and it will be easier to see if the overall S.H.I.E.L.D theme/feel has been captured, when there are a few more units and synergies to look at.

I guess the d20 reference in the IMPROVED AIM power is a leftover ?

Sorry that I haven´t got any more for you, keep up the good work!

Jesper
Yes there will be. Once we get some more playtests underway, I might consider suggesting "Agent" for their classes (I know :roll:) so Fury can move them (assuming he has some sort of "move some Agents" power) because, while they were reasonably effective, OM sharing left them with absolutely no board control.

I explained that it was both for future potential synergies and, in the mean time, Deadeye Dan.


Sniper looks pretty good. I need to think about the wording in the last power though.

But Spotter is going to need some help. First of all, this power dosn't make sense:

ASSISTED OBSERVATION
All Snipers you control can attack figures within clear sight of this S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter and use any special power on their Army Card even if the Sniper moved during its turn.
You see, the Sniper doesn't have a Special Power that goes away when she moves. The wording on Assisted Observation intends to give the Sniper something back that the special power Wait for the Shot on Sniper's card actually took away. Therefore, you need Spotter to somehow remove the special power on Sniper... not reiterate that you can use the special power.

Does that make sense?

In this case, the Spotter isn't giving the Sniper back use of her power, it's giving her back her attack (which the power takes away).

But the way it is written on the spotter, it makes it sound like the Sniper can now use its special power even if it has moved. As you state yourself, it is the normal attack that cannot be used when she moves and with the current Spotter wording, you are not fixing this for the Sniper.

You would have to say...

ASSISTED OBSERVATION
All Snipers you control can attack figures within clear sight of this S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter and ignore any special power on their Army Card that prevents an attack if the Sniper moved during its turn.
Thoughts on this one?

[IAmBatman]

Glad to see this is moving on - you should update the titles of the threads to reflect that they're both in the ERB phase. I posted responses to the ERB responses in the Sniper thread. :-)

[A3n]

Glad to see this is moving on - you should update the titles of the threads to reflect that they're both in the ERB phase. I posted responses to the ERB responses in the Sniper thread. :-)

Same here.

[NecroBlade]

OK. Changing class to Agent (because I truly feel that, though we don't know exactly what it'll be yet, putting an OM on Fury and using his power to move some Spotters into position, then using OMs to bring up firing Snipers sounds thematic and fun). Then proposing SHIELD Sniper and Spotter be moved to playtesting phase.

[A3n]

Yea

[Griffin]

Good change, and yea. :up:

Also, I could see Amanda Waller having some leadership abilities with Agents as well.

[NecroBlade]

And possibly Commissioner Gordon. ;)

[Griffin]

And possibly Commissioner Gordon. ;)

Oooohhh... Lawmen and Agents. 8)

[GreyOwl]

Yea!

[Hahma]

And possibly Commissioner Gordon. ;)

Oooohhh... Lawmen and Agents. 8)


Wouldn't that be a bit much for Commissioner Gordon? Lawmen Yes, Agent's not really digging it. Cops aren't the same as Kravs/Nakitas and SHIELD AGENTS. Just like Terrorists and Criminals aren't the same or some Criminal organizations aren't the same as other criminal organizations we want for C3G. I don't think being a Commissioner of Gotham City gives Gordan any ties with the vast spy-type Agent Class. And no, DEA Agents shouldn't make it okay to give him synergies with all other Agents IMO. I'd hope we keep consistency.

[Hahma]

YEA to playtesting for Sniper/Spotter

[Griffin]

And possibly Commissioner Gordon. ;)

Oooohhh... Lawmen and Agents. 8)


Wouldn't that be a bit much for Commissioner Gordon? Lawmen Yes, Agent's not really digging it. Cops aren't the same as Kravs/Nakitas and SHIELD AGENTS. Just like Terrorists and Criminals aren't the same or some Criminal organizations aren't the same as other criminal organizations we want for C3G. I don't think being a Commissioner of Gotham City gives Gordan any ties with the vast spy-type Agent Class. And no, DEA Agents shouldn't make it okay to give him synergies with all other Agents IMO. I'd hope we keep consistency.
I must say, I kinda agree with Hahma on this one, though I think those thoughts were also floating around in my head as well, I just got excited about the prospect of getting a bad@ss Gordon.

[NecroBlade]

Yeah, I think you're probably right, Hahma, Lawmen but not Agents.

[Hahma]

And possibly Commissioner Gordon. ;)

Oooohhh... Lawmen and Agents. 8)


Wouldn't that be a bit much for Commissioner Gordon? Lawmen Yes, Agent's not really digging it. Cops aren't the same as Kravs/Nakitas and SHIELD AGENTS. Just like Terrorists and Criminals aren't the same or some Criminal organizations aren't the same as other criminal organizations we want for C3G. I don't think being a Commissioner of Gotham City gives Gordan any ties with the vast spy-type Agent Class. And no, DEA Agents shouldn't make it okay to give him synergies with all other Agents IMO. I'd hope we keep consistency.
I must say, I kinda agree with Hahma on this one, though I think those thoughts were also floating around in my head as well, I just got excited about the prospect of getting a bad@ss Gordon.


Can I get an Amen, someone actually agrees with me :woot:

Well I had gotten excited about the prospect of getting a badass Viper, (more appropriate due to her history anyway) but get Madame Hydra. All I ask for is consistency when we dish out synergies. :)

[A3n]

I regularly agree with you Hahma, it's good when I do because I don't have to post if you already said it. :p

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Yea to playtesting.

[whitestuff]

Yea

[NecroBlade]

Is that everybody?

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I count 6, but I think Bats is in transit.

[NecroBlade]

Wasn't Hahma proxying for Bats?

[Griffin]

Wasn't Hahma proxying for Bats?

Not any more. Bats is back, but he is limiting his weekly involvement due to certain foreseen lifestyle changes. ;) Like actually having one now. :p

[NecroBlade]

Hmm, maybe I should've done Commissioner Gordon first so I could have him turn on the Bat Signal when we need it...

(Seriously, though, I'm looking forward to working on CG since we started talking about him. :p And I'll be stealing liberally from a card already on the site [which I did help create so it's all good ;)].)

[Griffin]

Hmm, maybe I should've done Commissioner Gordon first so I could have him turn on the Bat Signal when we need it...

(Seriously, though, I'm looking forward to working on CG since we started talking about him. :p And I'll be stealing liberally from a card already on the site [which I did help create so it's all good ;)].)

Yeah, I think the timing for CG is good, and it may help get a booster out quicker too. :D

[NecroBlade]

SHIELD Sniper/Spotter have passed to the playtest phase. Put 'em on the playtest sign-up list! :excited:

[Hahma]

Cool, it's been a long bit of work on these guys, but it wasn't an easy type of unit/s to tackle. Great job and hopefully you'll take on something easier for you next time. :D

[IAmBatman]

I definitely do look forward to Gordon. :-)

[NecroBlade]

Yep, I think Gordon will be a lot easier for everyone to agree on. :)

[IAmBatman]

Hard to say. I thought Robin would be super straightforward.

[NecroBlade]

LP's playtest in the Sniper thread. Looks great to me. They did OK in the single tests and Classic synergies were great. The only problem was OMs, which, as we know, will be alleviated at some point in the future. For now, they can still cover a large portion of the field from the start zone with suppressive fire, with was thematic and fun for him. :up:

[Griffin]

Can we see it?

[IAmBatman]

... It's in the Sniper Thread. :-P
So, yes, lol.

[Griffin]

Necro, why aren't you proposing that these guys and gals move to the final editing phase? Also, why aren't all of the playtests linked to the first page?

[NecroBlade]

Pass to final editing stage.

[IAmBatman]

I wasn't aware that you proposed anything over here? In fact, doesn't look like there were any posts here before this one for the past six days? :confused:

[NecroBlade]

All of the proposals for either SHIELD figure have been for both; they've always been two designs in one, I stated as much in a number of proposals, and they were sent out that way to playtesters.

[IAmBatman]

OK, that explains why I was so confused - I looked over at the Sniper thread and didn't see anything about the Spotter on that.
In that case, I'm going to need to abstain from the vote on this one until I can further examine the playtest results here (something I haven't done yet because I didn't know this one was moving forward). I'll let you know once I've had some time to look it over and vote then.
By the way, what were the costs you were proposing for either of these as they moved into the final editing phase? I wasn't clear on that.

[NecroBlade]

The ones in the first posts: 25 for the Spotter and 40 for the Sniper.

Technically the vote has already passed, but I understand the confusion and I didn't make things as clear as I could have, so I'll gladly wait for your opinion on the playtests.

And yeah, it was decided it would be OK to do these two designs at once (since they're thematically and mechanically meant to be played together) way back when I drafted them. ;)

[IAmBatman]

Oh. Guess I missed that vote. Sorry!
OK, 25 and 40 points - I'll review the playtests. Should be able to get a vote up on this by some time tomorrow.

[IAmBatman]

Oh, I only see the initial playtest linked to the first post. Are the additional playtests all linked on the other thread?

[Griffin]

I think they are both priced correctly. Yea.

[IAmBatman]

OK, I sat down and reviewed all of the playtests. I think that they were a bit streaky up and down and felt they may be a tad overcosted in a couple of matchups, but I'd rather have that than a tad undercosted. Also, I'm pretty sure our eventual Nick Fury will help them where they need it most (Order Marker management).
So I'm happy to pass them as is to final editing. yea.

[A3n]

I've been playing with the colours of the spotter comic pic to try to see what it would be like if it was similar to the mini;
http://www.hcrealms.com/units/sn004.jpg

Still trying to maintain that dramatic semi realistic look but I didn't bother about the red bits...
http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac111/Amas73/Private/C3G/C3G_SpotterAlt_comic.jpg

What are your thoughts?

Cheers

[GreyOwl]

I like it! :)

[SirGalahad]

Should the figure name under the Marvel logo be "S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter" since that's how the figure is referenced in the power text?

[NecroBlade]

Looking great, A3n! SirG is correct, the full name should be "S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter."

[A3n]

Looking great, A3n! SirG is correct, the full name should be "S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter."


I thought that might have been the case but I did check the first post a couple of times to make sure I had it as it was written there.

Cheers

[NecroBlade]

I had changed the Sniper but not the Spotter, thanks for the heads up, first post fixed.

[IAmBatman]

Ah, missed that link at first - could you put that in the first post, Necro?
It's looking great, A3n! No hitzone yet, of course. The text looks a lot less busy than I'd feared on the card. It's still probably busier than is ideal, especially for a common hero, but it's all readable still.

[NecroBlade]

A3n's card link? Added. :up:

[IAmBatman]

Yep, that's the one. Thanks. :-)

[Hahma]

Card looks great. :D

[IAmBatman]

So we're just waiting on mini photos from the Allies now, is that right?

[Hahma]

Yeah, Deathwalker1970 is trying to get one, but the weather in Denmark isn't cooperating for picture taking the moment. I think he said he should be able to try again tomorrow.

[A3n]

Cards:


Cheers

[IAmBatman]

Everything looks good, though these powers are so text heavy and complicated I do fear I'll never play with them ... (Not that this would be the first time a C3G card did this type of thing, and I haven't had trouble playing Magneto, for instance, at all. So maybe it's a false concern?).
From the people who've played with them, is the complexity on these cards closer to Magneto level playability (high) or Count Vertigo level playability (low).

[Hahma]

Hopefully, after a few uses, these guys (Spotter/Sniper) will be pretty easy to figure out. I mean, Jean Grey has a little complicated powers there and it's easy to remember after some use.

Nice cards A3n, I like the mini background of Chicago with the John Hancock building in there (the tall black one with the 2 big antennae). :thumbsup:

[Griffin]

Wow those cards look great.

[NecroBlade]

Missed the cards getting added - sweet! So this one's done then?

As far as playability, it's as easy as letting the opponent come to you. They have some long range so as long as you get a Spotter set up early, Snipers can keep walking up and firing.

[Griffin]

Missed the cards getting added - sweet! So this one's done then?

They are in the final editing phase now, so once we are happy with the card and all details, go ahead and post a proposition to move to the On Deck thread (Release Phase).

[NecroBlade]

Just read over the cards and everything looks right (though I'm sure Bats, Grif, and maybe others will give them a read through) - I propose we move SHIELD Spotter to On Deck.

[Hahma]

YEA Looks good.

[A3n]

Yea

[Spidey'tilIDie]

When a Sniper you control rolls the 20-sided against an opponent's figure that is within 10 clear sight spaces of at least one S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter you control, add 1 to your roll. Shouldn't this read " When a Sniper you control rolls the 20-sided die against an opponent's figure that is within 10 clear sight spaces of at least one S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter you control, add 1 to your roll?"

[IAmBatman]

Just to clarify, since proposals were being done in tandem for these cards ... this is for the Spotter only, correct? (Since the Sniper doesn't have cards yet and all).
Also, if you could take the mini photo and comic links down now that it's moved to Final Editing and put the full cards up now that it's about to be finalized, since they'll need to be up for their Books of (I don't think it will crash the site to just have these up in the finished Books ... and if it becomes a problem, we can always shift to plan B).
I'm going to read these over and vote in a few minutes. :-)

[IAmBatman]

OK, the wording looks good and the cards look good except one thing - no hitzone for the comic art card.
I'll give a conditional yea that includes the hitzone being added first.

[A3n]

When a Sniper you control rolls the 20-sided against an opponent's figure that is within 10 clear sight spaces of at least one S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter you control, add 1 to your roll. Shouldn't this read " When a Sniper you control rolls the 20-sided die against an opponent's figure that is within 10 clear sight spaces of at least one S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter you control, add 1 to your roll?"
Good catch I will fix tonight.
OK, the wording looks good and the cards look good except one thing - no hitzone for the comic art card.
I'll give a conditional yea that includes the hitzone being added first.
The comic card on the front page is the wrong link. I posted a new link that is to the card that has hitzone.

Cheers

[IAmBatman]

Well then my yea is contingent on the first post being updated to show me what I need to see. :-P

[Spidey'tilIDie]

When a Sniper you control rolls the 20-sided against an opponent's figure that is within 10 clear sight spaces of at least one S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter you control, add 1 to your roll. Shouldn't this read " When a Sniper you control rolls the 20-sided die against an opponent's figure that is within 10 clear sight spaces of at least one S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter you control, add 1 to your roll?"
:wave: Hello? What about this?

[IAmBatman]

A3n just said he'd fix it tonight. :-P

[NecroBlade]

Pic link fixed and good catch Spidey!

[IAmBatman]

Looking all hitzoney. My yea's for real this time. :-D

[whitestuff]

Yea

[A3n]

Update complete.

Cheers

[IAmBatman]

With me proxying for GreyOwl, that's just Griff and Sir G left to vote. :-)

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Yea.

[A3n]

I just realised I didn't say Yea

[NecroBlade]

And yes this vote is Spotter only - meant to clarify that in my last post.

[IAmBatman]

Maybe I was wrong on that Griff or Sir G thing ... but I'm right now! :-)

Edit: I think you mean Griffin in the title, right, Necro? I'm proxying for GreyOwl for the time being.

[Griffin]

I am proofing the card right now. :D

[Griffin]

ASSISTED OBSERVATION
A Sniper you control can ignore any special power on its army card that would prevent it from attacking or using a special power because it moved this turn, as long as that Sniper attacks a figure within 10 clear sight spaces of a S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter you control or chooses a figure within 10 clear sight spaces of a S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter you control for a special power.

Everything looks good and I could sign off on it, though I think I have a suggested change that could seriously reduce the wording of this power.

ASSISTED OBSERVATION
A Sniper you control can ignore any special power on its army card that would prevent it from attacking or using a special power because it moved this turn, as long as that Sniper targets a figure within 10 clear sight spaces of a S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter you control or chooses a figure within 10 clear sight spaces of a S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter you control for a special power.

[IAmBatman]

I think that works ... and I like it. :-)

[NecroBlade]

Not all special powers or even attacks use the term "target" though, some of them say "choose."

[SirGalahad]

Are there going to be other Snipers, possibly Hero Snipers? The reason I ask is because this card's powers reference "any Sniper you control", not "any S.H.I.E.L.D. Sniper you control" and I want to be sure we're not going to give some future Sniper Hero unwarranted synergies.

[Hahma]

It helps Deadeye Dan right now, but I don't know of any other Snipers planned for the future.

[NecroBlade]

She also works and has been tested with Omnomnomnicron Snipers.

[Hahma]

She also works and has been tested with Omnomnomnicron Snipers.


Are they one of them there new DnD units that just came out? :p

[SirGalahad]

Don't make fun of a speech impemident.

[IAmBatman]

Wh-wh-what?

[NecroBlade]

This one's past 48 hours with 6 yeas, so SHIELD Spotter is On Deck, too.

[IAmBatman]

Sweet! Once I'm caught up (very soon) this will be added as well. :-)

[Hahma]

The link to the Comic picture isn't working on the first page.

[IAmBatman]

I think it should be safe to actually put the cards up as well.

[NecroBlade]

Hmm, I updated the mini image...but any ideas about the comic one?

[IAmBatman]

Cards:

Mini (http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac111/Amas73/Private/C3G/C3G_SHIELDSpotter_mini.jpg)

Comic (http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac111/Amas73/Private/C3G/C3G_SHIELDSpotter_comic.jpg)

Cheers

Maybe A3n can let us know what happened to that one?

[A3n]

Cards:

Mini (http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac111/Amas73/Private/C3G/C3G_SHIELDSpotter_mini.jpg)

Comic (http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac111/Amas73/Private/C3G/C3G_SHIELDSpotter_comic.jpg)

Cheers

Maybe A3n can let us know what happened to that one?

:oops: Now I understand why the Sniper mini didn't update when I uploaded the new version. I must have deleted the Spotter comic instead of the Sniper mini. My bad, have fixed in a jiffy.

EDIT: Ok try now.

Cheers

[NecroBlade]

Thanks, A3n!

[GreyOwl]

PDFs:

S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter (mini) (http://www.hiddendragon.com/hs_customs/C3G/C3G_SHIELDSpotter_mini.pdf)
S.H.I.E.L.D. Spotter (comic) (http://www.hiddendragon.com/hs_customs/C3G/C3G_SHIELDSpotter_comic.pdf)