Most Overrated Unit

[spider_poison]

What is the most overrated unit in the game? I'm going to say the Airborne Elite. They can be devastating, but they're usually chumps if you know how to beat them. Oh, and no answers like "dude, Khosumet is so overrated...I can beat him with anything any day of the week." Khosumet is pretty bad all the time. Units like Krug, Krav Maga, Raelin, etc. are units that might qualify for being overrated. What do you all think?

[Point Blanks]

I think that all units have an inherent weakness that makes them defeatable. Any unit can be taken down if you know how to. That's what makes the game fun.

[Uprising]

I think Sudema is over-rated. My brother lives and dies by Vydar armies, so I go against her often. Granted, she could be nasty, but once you have her in range/adjacency, she's dead(again). She hits fast, but goes down even faster.

[UranusPChicago]

Good topic!

I would have to say the Krav Maga. They certainly CAN do a fair amount of damage, but of all the games that I have played against them, I can only remember them being absolute game changers one time.

I have played enough times that I know that three blanks on the defense dice are going to show up more times than they statistically should. Plus as a three figure Unique unit, the card's value decreases quickly as they die.

I hate going up against them, but they generally fall quicker than they should.

The reason I think they are overrated is based on the amount of times that I have seen them listed as a cornerstone within different armies.

[Uprising]

Good topic!

I would have to say the Krav Maga. They certainly CAN do a fair amount of damage, but of all the games that I have played against them, I can only remember them being absolute game changers one time.

I have played enough times that I know that three blanks on the defense dice are going to show up more times than they statistically should. Plus as a three figure Unique unit, the card's value decreases quickly as they die.

I hate going up against them, but they generally fall quicker than they should.

The reason I think they are overrated is based on the amount of times that I have seen them listed as a cornerstone within different armies.

Funny, I was going to go with the Krav if I didn't pick Sudema. Pretty much for the same reasons as stated above.

[spider_poison]

Good topic!

I would have to say the Krav Maga. They certainly CAN do a fair amount of damage, but of all the games that I have played against them, I can only remember them being absolute game changers one time.

I have played enough times that I know that three blanks on the defense dice are going to show up more times than they statistically should. Plus as a three figure Unique unit, the card's value decreases quickly as they die.

I hate going up against them, but they generally fall quicker than they should.

The reason I think they are overrated is based on the amount of times that I have seen them listed as a cornerstone within different armies.

Yeah, I agree that the Krav Maga are overrated. If I ever use them, I add Raelin to the equation. Although even with 5 defense, they still seem to fall when they shouldn't!

[MegadeV]

I'll go with Krug. He is always big and scary to see in the opposing starting zone, but the only time I've only had trouble with him was when he took on Jotun by himself. Both were unwounded before the fight and Jotun survived with 1 life left.

Typically as soon as Krug gets 2 or more wounds on him, he is the only figure attacked until he's dead (which doesn't take long).

[happyjosiah]

Q9. I saw so many people playing him at the tourney, and my Overrated Elite took him down so fast it wasn't funny. :)

[Jormi_Boced]

I have to agree with AE.

[Aldin]

*chuckle*

The irony is that I still rate both Q9 and the Krav Maga _very_ highly. Somehow it always seems like Krav Mags on Glyphs are my nemesis and Q9 seems like _the_ non-common answer to commons.

I'll vote Drake for most overrated. He's just too vulnerable to ranged specials.

~Aldin, who may simply be too inexperienced to judge well

[jcb231]

While I enjoy Unique Squads, I think that all of them could easily be considered over-rated.

The big problem with unique squads is that just one hit severely limits their power. In a Common Squad situation, another figure just steps up until they are really on the ropes and you are down to the last set. In a Unique Hero situation, you've got multiple health (usually) to provide a little cushion, and the hero's power doesn't diminish as he takes hits. Unique Squads have neither of those bonuses....one hit and your power is cut by 25-33% because you lose a figure. That sucks. Plus some Unique Squads are quite expensive....120 points? That's 40 points each for the Tagawa or Nakitas. Sure they're fun and can dominate in the right situations, but 40 points per figure? One hit and boom, gone.

So that's my two cents....Unique Squads, in general, are over-rated. Not to say they aren't good....just over-rated.

[Retlaw]

Aldin:

I'll vote Drake for most overrated. He's just too vulnerable to ranged specials.

~Aldin, who may simply be too inexperienced to judge well

How is he vulnerable to ranged units? With his Thorian Speed
Thorian Speed
Opponents' figures must be adjacent to Sgt. Drake Alexander to attack him with a normal attack.


Ranged units can't attack him unless it is a special attack.

[TopHatCat64]

Aldin:

I'll vote Drake for most overrated. He's just too vulnerable to ranged specials.

~Aldin, who may simply be too inexperienced to judge well

How is he vulnerable to ranged units? With his Thorian Speed...Ranged units can't attack him unless it is a special attack.

Yes, hence the reason why Aldin mentioned that he's too vulnerable to ranged specials...Your opponent knows that the easiest way to deal with Drake is to focus any explosion, shotgun, q-gun, grenade, ice shard, etc. on him and he'll go down pretty easily with only 3 defense. You could also just swarm him in melee.

[Aldin]

*Aldin tips his hat to TopHatCat*

Yessir, that's it exactly. Thanks for clarifying.

~Aldin

[CornPuff]

I put my vote on Q9 and Braxas. I seldom see either of them justify their cost.

Braxas' defense is too weak. Heavy hitters can punish braxas's life very quickly. Cheap figues make it very hard for her to be effective. Of course some ultra longe range like the AE or Syv can also wound the beast without being threatened.

Q9's attack is too weak. Q9 is compelling because he is one of the few high defense units that we see fielded, but Queglixing at 3x3 at 6 range usually isn't good enough. I'd rather have syvvarris perched on high ground attacking 2x4 from 9 hexes away.

[Oprime]

I would hafta say Ralien. Yup I said it. Ralien.

Any time I field her I spend too many order markers positioning her when I could be positioning others.

Her 2 added dice is nice but not a end all be all, DW's any one, more dice does not guarentee you will live.

Plus to obtain her benifit you must keep your army relativly close by each other and any benifit of flanking is lost. Then she generally becomes the primary target and goes down quickly.

For 80 points I'd much rather have Saylind, Finn, or thorgrim.

[Slade]

Man I love using the AE but they are just so risky and they rely on two dice rolls for dropping and winning init. I have done some wicked evil with them (sorry Codeman) and their range 8 is really great and with 3 dice and four figures without the grenades is pretty solid, but you always want to risk that grenade toss... So they get my vote despite being a major factor in a number of games.

[Chimpy]

Blade and Arrow gruts. They are continually used in the "major" tournament armies, yet I never seem them acheive anything. (Ecspecially the Arrow Gruts) This might just be because the people I know play them horribly, but I have lost faith in their power.

[monkeyfish]

I'd say the Deathreavers.

[jcb231]

I don't think Orcs can possibly be considered over-rated.....unless of course you were to only play like one or two squads of them in an army with no bonding targets. Orcs are made for HUGE swarms. Anyone who wants to succeed with them has to be willing to throw them on the grinder.

[Revdyer]

I think it says something positive that we have such a difficult time answering the question. Sure there are differences of style, luck, and perspective; but by and large the full compliment of HeroScrape figures and squads are balanced. That is a remarkable achievement in game creation, especially when releasing expansions and additional figures over a couple of years' span of time.

[Jandars_Hope]

Nicely put Rev!

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

I agree about Krug. He seems to go down way too fast in our games.

I have to disagree with Q9 and the Kravs though. Q9 can be dropped, but he does a fair amount of damage in many games. The Kravs are just sick.

[Chimpy]

I have to disagree with Q9 and the Kravs though. Q9 can be dropped, but he does a fair amount of damage in many games. The Kravs are just sick.

I agree with you about the Krav on all accounts. Q9 is another matter. I have lost all respect I ever had towards him in the one game where 2 squads of Venocs took him out in one turn. (He only killed one of them!!)

[spider_poison]

Blade and Arrow gruts. They are continually used in the "major" tournament armies, yet I never seem them acheive anything. (Ecspecially the Arrow Gruts) This might just be because the people I know play them horribly, but I have lost faith in their power.

Give the Arrow Gruts some respect! Just because they have one attack and one defense doesn't mean they're terrible. I used them at Gen-Con and they did quite well for me. :)

[spider_poison]

Also, I've noticed (besides the orcs) that nobody has made a case for a common squad being overrated. Surely somebody has a case for that...right?

[Aldin]

Also, I've noticed (besides the orcs) that nobody has made a case for a common squad being overrated. Surely somebody has a case for that...right?

Not sure it's possible to overrate a common since the common's primary value is sheer mass. Either a common works well as a mass unit or it doesn't... right?

~Aldin

[spider_poison]

You can go ahead and assume multiples if using commons.

[theats]

well, DW 9000 definately, i love taking him down with my little arrow grut.

[reapersaurus]

First off, noone should be saying "DW9000 or Sudema, because they aren't rated, much less overrated. :lol:

They have to be viewed by a consensus of people as being strong, before they can be overrated.
And Sudema and all the Deathwalkers are viewed as being too weak for their points.but by and large the full compliment of HeroScape figures and squads are balanced.Second -
whoa there, reverun' :D

Just because there aren't many overrated units, does not equal that almost all of them are balanced. That doesn't track - one doesn't follow the other.

The bigger and more obvious problems in Heroscape costing are with the units that are WEAK, not the ones thought to be strong.
The DW7K's, the Khosumets, the Gorillinators, etc are the problematic units, balance-wise - not the high-end of the spectrum, for the most part.

Third - It is interesting that common ranged squads haven't been mentioned yet as being overrated.
I'm interested in who first floats the assertion that the 4th Mass are overrated.
I'm also wondering if anyone thinks the Blastatrons are overrated.
Also, the MArro Warriors.

[monkeyfish]

I'm also wondering if anyone thinks the Blastatrons are overrated.

I do!!! :D

[reapersaurus]

I'm also wondering if anyone thinks the Blastatrons are overrated.

I do!!! :DI mean - "anyone who's played the game think the Blastatrons are overrated?"

:rimshot:

just kidding - I'm just messin' with ya. :lol:
:poke:

[monkeyfish]

I'm also wondering if anyone thinks the Blastatrons are overrated.

I do!!! :DI mean - "anyone who's played the game think the Blastatrons are overrated?"

:rimshot:

just kidding - I'm just messin' with ya. :lol:
:poke:
I know.

[Rÿchean]

I echo what reap said here, for a unit to be overrated they have to have quite the reputation for getting the job done.

I think the AE can be devastating...I think they are priced just fine, I just don’t think they consistently pay off the way one would hope.

I am not sure the Nakita's have been around long enough to have the reputation necessary to be overrated, but I think they have gotten a lot of buzz. I find them to rely too much on the D20 to be consistent.

As far as a hero, I think Syvarris has a good reputation though I find him to be a bit overrated.

Common squad?

Hard to put common ranged squads at overrated since having several sets of any of the commons is probably going to pay off...Provided of course you are using the synergies (blasts with Glads, Arrow gruts with beasts)

(I am wondering if Reap is going to give us his or just snipe the thread :-P)

[deathsaurx]

Q9's attack is too weak. Q9 is compelling because he is one of the few high defense units that we see fielded, but Queglixing at 3x3 at 6 range usually isn't good enough. I'd rather have syvvarris perched on high ground attacking 2x4 from 9 hexes away.

Q9 can be very effective if he is placed on height. 5 attack for a ranged figure is pretty good but...... being able to only attack once with his normal attack is bad for a ranged unit.

[reapersaurus]

(I am wondering if Reap is going to give us his or just snipe the thread :-P)Oh! :lol:
I hadn't even thought to add my opinion.
Heck, I'm worried :unsure: someone might be lurking, just waiting for me to post my game opinion and then jump on me for it (*gasp* It might be YOU, Rychean! :lol: ) but so be it:

I agree that the AE and Krav Maga (and the Nakita's if anyone thinks they're really good) are overrated.
Meaning - they typically won't do as much damage as their reputations suggest, IMO.

Without Raelin, the Krav are so dependant on rolling 1 out of 3 shields it's not even funny. And that's almost 50% likely, IIRC. Once one dies, say goodbye to the lethality of the unit (due to the unique squad vulnerability, as already mentioned). And that's when they can stay away from all enemy figures. Once they're adjacent, say goodnight.
With Raelin, she just becomes a monstrously huge target, and probably won't last, either. Who would target the Krav when they could target Raelin? :shrug:

The AE are hideously dependant on a first-round drop (40% chance) - without that, their effectiveness goes down incredibly.
Braxas is, of course, overrated by some.

I think the Microcorp Agents are overvalued by some people, but since they're ranged commons, they can do damage.
Oh -and some people think Thorgrim is effective, and I think he's a very bad choice on the field. So many better uses of 80 points, and he needs to be +2 defense to better compare with Finn (1 attack > 1 defense).

[CornPuff]

Alright.
The 4th Mass is overrated.

Why? because you have to spend soooo many points before they are worth their salt, and even they'll have a lot of trouble with mobility. they start off with pretty average stats. You want an extra move to make them reasonable, add Marcus, 100 points *cha-ching*. you want an all valiant army to make them have the defense of a marro? oops, better not look at combining them with 80% of the figures out there. Want to boost them to a decent attack, better not plan on moving this turn. You want to not get routed when the enemy sends in their shock melee? better get at least 3 squads. Of course, no matter what you do their range still sucks.

The 4th mass necessarily dominate whatever army they are in. They're a complete special needs unit. If you plan your army around the 4th (which you must to use them effectively) you severely limit your flexibility.

I'm not saying they are teh suxxors, just that they are a lot more vanilla then most people think. I think they are on par with the microcorp and aubrien archers.

When this was a hot topic, it was pre-Thoras. I think the Nakitas, roborats and maybe blastatrons could be part of a pretty excellent counter-mass-mass army.

[Rÿchean]

Who would target the Krav when they could target Raelin? :shrug: I think this is one of the main reasons they play together so well. She draws fire; Krav fire back. Kravs might benefit more from Raelin than any other card because of their design.

Heck, I'm worried :unsure: someone might be lurking, just waiting for me to post my game opinion and then jump on me for it (*gasp* It might be YOU, Rychean! :lol: )

Did I jump in ya ? ;-) Don't we all want reaperinions about all things Heroscape? I know I do!

I thought about the Micros too...but they always don't work when I have them and work like a charm when I go against them.

That is the other thing that sort of comes to surface in this thread. Often units that others find to be just outstanding don’t work well for an individual. The micro's fall into this category for me. I almost feel like I need to have three sets of them to just feel comfortable playing them.

[Uprising]

First off, noone should be saying "DW9000 or Sudema, because they aren't rated, much less overrated. :lol:
They have to be viewed by a consensus of people as being strong, before they can be overrated.
And Sudema and all the Deathwalkers are viewed as being too weak for their points.

Point taken. I guess by and large Sudema is considered "weak" within the spectrum of Heroscapers.com. However, within each players own playing group(s) you are going to have varied answers and views on what it means to be "Overrated", but I know what your saying man :up:

[reapersaurus]

Did I jump in ya ? ;-) Don't we all want reaperinions about all things Heroscape? I know I do! :lol:
chyaa - right!

Hell, _I_ try to limit my opinions, since really, the game is so hideously dominated by luck, that any small differences between the units are dwarfed by the vagaracies of luck in play.

It's sometimes kinda like - who gives a crap if you have the perfect draw against someone, on the perfect map - your Krav are being protected by Raelin, and you've got height on someone's Arrow Gruts.... and then you whiff on all the dice twice, and they torch Raelin with a 4-skull FireLine attack and there goes your game. :roll:
What was the point of strategy, again? :headshake:
I thought about the Micros too...but they always don't work when I have them and work like a charm when I go against them. WORD.
Finding a unit that performs adequately for you on a regular basis seems to be the trick to playing competetively.... if that makes ANY f-ing sense to you. :lol:

[yagyuninja]

See, I've only ever played with 1 squad of micros (I missed the wave 3 boat), and they have laid waste to my enemies each time. I love them so very much.

Of course, I always draft them on maps where water has an important strategic value... :twisted:

[theats]

high waterfalls, Marro, or micro, who will get there first?

[Codeman]

Blade and Arrow gruts. They are continually used in the "major" tournament armies, yet I never seem them acheive anything. (Ecspecially the Arrow Gruts) This might just be because the people I know play them horribly, but I have lost faith in their power.

Hey.... that hurts.

[fejkl]

I'd disagree quite a bit with the AE being overrated. Even if they don't drop right away, You can still get them into good spots. 8 range beats almost every unit in the game, and they can take down many heros in one turn. On more than one occasion killed Taelord with my 4 AE in one turn. I've also killed entire armies with just losing one AE.

OK, enough about that.

My most overrated units/squad would have to be Taelord *ducks from UD's projectiles*. I guess I mentioned why above. Otherwise, his stats suck (not his abilities), and he falls too easily.

[UranusPChicago]

I'd disagree quite a bit with the AE being overrated. Even if they don't drop right away, You can still get them into good spots. 8 range beats almost every unit in the game, and they can take down many heros in one turn. On more than one occasion killed Taelord with my 4 AE in one turn. I've also killed entire armies with just losing one AE.

OK, enough about that.

My most overrated units/squad would have to be Taelord *ducks from UD's projectiles*. I guess I mentioned why above. Otherwise, his stats suck (not his abilities), and he falls too easily.

no need to duck...

[kenjib]

I'm also wondering if anyone thinks the Blastatrons are overrated.
Also, the MArro Warriors.

I'm not a big fan of the Marro Warriors. If you spend an order marker to clone them early on, you are wasting a turn that would most likely be much better spent with one of your other units. If you wait to clone them until late game, the game has probably already been decided. Finally, once cloned they are probably standing in water at the absolute lowest point on the map while the opposing units have had a free turn or two to get a better position on them and possibly get the first shot in.

I just haven't seen a time when their cloning has really effected the game at all. Also, when people leave one of them behind in the water as a clone farm they are sacrificing one of the Marro Warriors' best assets - the fact that there are 4 of them.

[B:T:L Matt]

I'm with Fejkl on this one... I think Taelord is overrated. He's often depicted as a great and deadly figure, and maybe its because of his abilities, but I have taken him down easily.

[TopHatCat64]

I'm with Fejkl on this one... I think Taelord is overrated. He's often depicted as a great and deadly figure, and maybe its because of his abilities, but I have taken him down easily.

With the amount of controversy Taelord generates around here I think it's pretty safe to say he's not overrated. He has his specialty, mainly boosting range on height and minions in the trenches, but he's not so good in either one of these roles that you reconfigure all of your armies to include him like you can with Raelin and the KMA.

[Euryon]

When I play large battles - 4 players with 1000 points each - it tends to be the big hitters, Charos, Krug, Mimring, etc who end up over-rated. Whilst they fulfill their quota half the time (that is, kill as many points as theyre worth), the other half they don't. With an approximate success rate of 50%, this means they are overrated... There again, most units are only going to be effective 50% of the time.
Either way, Krug and Charos especially have to be played very well to be worth their points, IMO.

[Vydar]

I'll throw my vote in for Krug as everyone seems to like him and I've rarely had a problem taking him down. He's way too susceptible to ranged fire.

I also don't think that the AE are overrated. Their drop mechanic can be downright broken on a map even if they don't drop on the first turn. They are one of the primary reasons you have to be careful as to how you build the leveling on the map.

I also don't think the Krav are overrated as I've personally devastated armies with them to the point that we banned using them for a while.

[Eclipse]

I'll throw down my vote for the Blastatrons. On paper they seem absolutely dominant, but in practice they're not all that great. First of all, they're expensive. I don't care what the card says, it costs 130 points to field a squad of them. 2 squads can easily cost 260-340 points.

More importantly, I find them incredibly inflexible and hard to position. Because they really rely on the Gladiatrons to do damage, they really play more like a melee squad when it comes to movement and postitioning. Without the Gladiatrons, they're often stuck plinking away with 1 or 2 attack dice, which is unlikely to pierce any defenses.

Also, they have some serious counters. Sgt Drake can do horrible, horrible things to a swarm of Gladiatrons/Blastatrons all by himself. The fact that the Blastatrons can't get a bonus (besides height) when attacking melee units means they're simply fodder if you get them in close.

I think they're good, mind you. On large, open maps without a lot of cover and with a few high spots, they can dominate. I've destroyed several armies with them myself, but when faced with them I find them all too easy to pick apart. I'd much rather have a run and gun squad like the AE, Krav, Micro, or Aubren's to keep things flexible. They're just harder to counter, IMO.j

[jcb231]

Also, the MArro Warriors.

I would consider Marro Warriors, as a Unique Squad, to be as over-rated as all the other Unique Squads. I like 'em, but sometimes that darn one-life thing without another squaddie to step in to the dead one's place frustrates the heck out of me. Marro Warriors can get around that a bit by cloning, but it wastes a turn.

[Roufus]

The zettain guards and the greeks.

oh wait.......

[Vydar]

@jcb
I agree that the Marros are overrated. They are very good, but not as good as people make them out to be. They are a great mop-up squad when the opponent is damaged to the point that they don't have any full squads left, but I find they get slaughtered if you bring them out early. Leaving one back to clone is a waste of orders at the early to mid stages of the game.

[GaryLASQ]

Blade and Arrow gruts. They are continually used in the "major" tournament armies, yet I never seem them acheive anything. (Ecspecially the Arrow Gruts) This might just be because the people I know play them horribly, but I have lost faith in their power.welp, Truth just won a tourney with:

Arrow Gruts x3
Swog Riders x4
Krug
Deaey Dan

several squads plus some beasts are worth it. this is not the first time a similar army has won a tourney.

my vote would be any of the Samurai units. i rarely see them do well in a game. especially the Tagawa. by the time they get the third experience marker (if they get it) the squad is usually down to one figure (one life).

[Chimpy]

Blade and Arrow gruts. They are continually used in the "major" tournament armies, yet I never seem them acheive anything. (Ecspecially the Arrow Gruts) This might just be because the people I know play them horribly, but I have lost faith in their power.welp, Truth just won a tourney with:

Arrow Gruts x3
Swog Riders x4
Krug
Deaey Dan

several squads plus some beasts are worth it. this is not the first time a similar army has won a tourney.

my vote would be any of the Samurai units. i rarely see them do well in a game. especially the Tagawa. by the time they get the third experience marker (if they get it) the squad is usually down to one figure (one life).

That only reinforces my point. Everybody wins tournaments with these guys but I never actually see them do good. (The reason for this might just be that the people I play with do not know how to use them. But then again, people I play with generally seem pretty intelligent in their moves.)

[DarkDino]

Hmmmm I tend to think the Deathwalkers are overrated... Such high defense but they always seem to die first. 1 life stinks. They're specisls are alright.... but they just don't seem to be tough enough.

[theats]

RAPID FIRE+ VIPERS= CRAZY FUN

[Darhelm]

Sorry chimpy but my vote is gorillanators.
they have NEVER worked for me. they die like, in the first couple of rounds and never cause damage, but here are some others i think are a bit overrated.
Raelin-HUGE HUGE HUGE MASSIVE TARGET need i say more? :blowup:
Deathreavers-rather draft the orcs instead, one attack doesn't accomplish much, and no redemption through any of it's powers, scatter makes it annoying.
AE- Never seem to work when i want them too. :(

[Eclipse]

Gorillanators can't be overrated. They're generally rated pretty poorly to begin with....

[CupidsArt]

Blade and Arrow gruts. They are continually used in the "major" tournament armies, yet I never seem them acheive anything. (Ecspecially the Arrow Gruts) This might just be because the people I know play them horribly, but I have lost faith in their power.welp, Truth just won a tourney with:

Arrow Gruts x3
Swog Riders x4
Krug
Deaey Dan

several squads plus some beasts are worth it. this is not the first time a similar army has won a tourney.

my vote would be any of the Samurai units. i rarely see them do well in a game. especially the Tagawa. by the time they get the third experience marker (if they get it) the squad is usually down to one figure (one life).

That only reinforces my point. Everybody wins tournaments with these guys but I never actually see them do good. (The reason for this might just be that the people I play with do not know how to use them. But then again, people I play with generally seem pretty intelligent in their moves.)

Okay now my head hurts :wtf:

[Elginb]

I'll throw my hat in and say I think Jotun is overrated. Maybe it's just the types of maps we play on (which usually involve a fair amount of high ground and and various obstacles), but ranged units seem to pick him off fairly easily. Actually, I've seen Nilfheim pretty much pick him off single-handedly on several occasions. If not overrated, at least overcosted-- I don't think he should cost more than Nilfheim, certainly.

[Aldin]

Funny, 'cause Jotun scares the heck out of me. I've had him take down Nilfy in a single blow! He does need some defensive help, but when he has it he's a wrecking machine.

~Aldin

[yagyuninja]

Jotun killed my Q9 in one hit, and absolutely massacred Nilfheim in the same game. It was my first game with RV, and I wrote it up here:

http://heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=766

Jotun Strong.
Jotun Scary.
:jotun:

[Elginb]

Certainly, if Jotun can get to you, then he's amazingly tough. But ranged units can split up and take him out while he's running around. Nilfheim, I think, is one of the most versatile figures in the game (excellent melee attack, good defense, flyer, multiple ranged attacks) and can work effectively on most boards. Jotun, on the other hand, seems to work best on flat boards.

In the games I've played when they've been pitted against one another, Nilfheim would ping pong back and forth over choppy terrain, while Jotun would keep running around hoping to get close enough to touch him. Nilfheim would attack with his distance attack enough to wittle down his health, then go in for the kill with his 6 attack.

Anyway, that's just been my experience. I know there are a lot of variables involved...

[Tiberius]

Every time I have used Jotun, he absolutely whiffs, but that is mostly because of my horrible luck. Neilfiem on the other hand shines golden for me. I agree completely with his versatility. The last time I used him, he singlehandedly took out my opponents entire force singlehandedly. And that is two singlehandedly's.

[Elginb]

I've played once when Jotun was really scary, and that was when my opponent had Jotun batting clean-up. By that time, my squads had been depleted and my heroes were isolated. Jotun just casually walked around and took my guys out one by one. There was no synergy left in my crew and you definitely need synergy and to defeat Jotun. If he had moved Jotun out early, though, I don't think he would've been near as effective.

[TopHatCat64]

I've played once when Jotun was really scary, and that was when my opponent had Jotun batting clean-up. By that time, my squads had been depleted and my heroes were isolated. Jotun just casually walked around and took my guys out one by one. There was no synergy left in my crew and you definitely need synergy and to defeat Jotun. If he had moved Jotun out early, though, I don't think he would've been near as effective.

Very interesting, this is the first time I've heard of someone using Jotun as their mop-up unit. Typically it's some low cost unit with a survival special like the Warriors of Ashra or the Marro Warriors.

I suppose the trick then, would be gaining the upperhand on your opponent's army with a 225 point disadvantage.

Out of curiousity, what sort of armies were you and your opponent running?

[Elginb]

Boy, I'm not sure what the armies were that day, though we usually use 600 point armies. The board was built with 4 MS, 3 RTFF, and 2 Lava Sets. There were two hills perpendicular to the start zones and a choppy lava field dividing them and connecting the two start zones.

I think there were Gorillinators involved, but I'm not sure. I remember it came down to Jotun hunting Dund and Agent Carr. After he took out Dund, Agent Carr almost knocked off Jotun just by running and shooting, but Jotun finally caught up to him. Actually, if I had won initiative, Carr would've had a very good chance of knocking off Jotun with a melee attack, but it wasn't to be.

[shidler9]

IMO the Deathreavers are the most overrated units. One of my friends like to pick all Soulborg themed armies, and he had the Deathwalkers, Deathstalkers, Deathreavers, and Zettians(I had the Orcs). Some how he couldn't believe it when I finished off all three Deathwalkers within 5 turns (with Gruts) a and his Deathstalkers couldn't Maul anyone important because I was feeding them cannon fodder, but his stupid Deathreavers kept scattering all over the place! They dont even do anything! :frustrated::brickwall::wtf!::wtf!::wtf!: THEY HAVE ONE FRIGGIN ATTACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!....... Sorry, I just extremely hate that games memory, it tooklike 6 hours to finally back them up:rolleyes:.



Also, contrary to what most people say, Sudema rocks.
once in a marvel mix game I was playing she wiped out the Hulk, Sgt. Drake, and Grimnak be fore being wasted by Thanos!

[rdhight]

I'm not sure there are any units that are severely overrated on this site right now, but here are my nominations....

Sir Gilbert. He's a strong figure who helps strong squads, but I've seen a lot of armies that seem to be put together on the principle that Gilbert is the only bonding target you want or need for your Knights of Weston. The ability of Alastair or Eldgrim to dash up a steep slope quickly, attacking along the way, can be a big help. Finn offers the same attack boost to your troops plus powering up MWs or Krav for the endgame. Any additional Human Champion can keep that fifth attack coming for longer.

Romans, Me-Burq-Sa, and Marcus. I don't know that these guys are overrated, but I do know that they're all ranked A- right now and that many 'Scapers haven't had the chance to personally take their measure (because the Roman Legion pack has been hard to find for quite a while). When Wave 1 is re-released and more people can throw Romans into the arena against new guys and see who wins, those A- rankings are going to get put to the test.

[Simpsons Scaper]

I have to agree that Deathreavers are overrated. They're only good for glyoh grabbing, and I'm not spending 40 points on a glyph grabber. They're OK at tying up low-attack squads too, I guess.

[LongHeroscaper]

I, on the other hand, think that Deathreavers is one of the best squads and one of the most annoying squads in the game. Yeah, one squad may not do much, but again, one squad of any common squad is basically a waste of points. When you have 12 or more Rats running around and clogging everything up, you will see their true power.

[killercactus]

I have to agree that Deathreavers are overrated. They're only good for glyoh grabbing, and I'm not spending 40 points on a glyph grabber. They're OK at tying up low-attack squads too, I guess.

Deathreavers are amazing. They're good at tying up everything, not just low attack squads. Plus, they're not just good glyph grabbers, they're good glyph holders. If the Common Attack glyph is on the board, the Rats attack becomes effective against squads, and if you're backing them up with Common Units, the army get's disgusting.

[Sujoah]

Deathreavers are actually very good. Have you ever used them with an all range army? That is when they really shine. Your opponents have to shoot them when they are engaged, while the rest of your army sits back and shoots. Plus, with Scatter, you don't need to put many OM's on them.

I killed my dad's Charos with one squad of rats and Q10. Q10 just shot, while the rats just sat there making sure that Charos didn't get away.

[Sarpedon]

Greetings, everyone.

In my opinion, the unit currently most overrated is Nilfheim. He currently enjoys no movement bonding and, with a defense of only 4, he can be destroyed relatively quickly by (glyph-boosted) ranged squads. Consider how often he will earn his keep. Will he destroy 185 points-worth of enemy units? Will he give any sufficiently great benefit to your army (if you choose not to use him purely for attack)?

How are his 185 points justified? Granted, he has a very good attack and he probably will destroy a ranged squad or small hero, but that's all. He's NOT an effective glyph holder and his ORDER marker cost is through the roof (as is the case with most non-movement-bonding heroes). Add to this that his sculpt makes him difficult to tactically position on many scenarios, and his value decreases even further.

The combined point and order marker cost along with his relatively (for a 185-point unit) low defense and voluminous sculpt should have him ranked no better than a B+ in my opinion. I really don't know why Spider Poison ranked him so highly. I should add that this is one of the very few rankings that I do not agree with. Almost all others are bang-on as the game is at this time.

[tubafication]

Even though I don't know what he is rated at the moment (I lost my bookmark to the page), I think Grimnak is easily the worst hero for his points. I usually kill him in games before he even gets to my half of the board. He's horrible in my opinion.

But for my remembrance of the rankings, Braxas is my other most overrated person. Now a million people will disagree with me but I believe she can be killed too easily (Finn killed him once with Braxas having full health), in my opinion she can't stand up to too much, which is what makes her die before her 210 points.
Just my opinion.

[clancampbell]

I know most will disagree with me but I have to say my vote for most overrated goes to Q9.
I haven't had much experience with him, I only ever used him once, and have only played against him 4 times. Q9 has been on the winning side only once in these games.
I much prefer Q10, for 30 points less and in my experience much better unit.

[Jexik]

Wow, it seems like everyone is hating on my favorite units today.

IMO the Deathreavers are the most overrated units.

I'm not really sure what to say to this that LongHeroscaper or killercactus already said. Deathreavers are super good. I had a pretty good post (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=619631&postcount=2) about it awhile ago...

Deathreavers are the second best unit in the game, IMO. Raelin is first.

I'm not sure there are any units that are severely overrated on this site right now, but here are my nominations....

Sir Gilbert. He's a strong figure who helps strong squads, but I've seen a lot of armies that seem to be put together on the principle that Gilbert is the only bonding target you want or need for your Knights of Weston. The ability of Alastair or Eldgrim to dash up a steep slope quickly, attacking along the way, can be a big help. Finn offers the same attack boost to your troops plus powering up MWs or Krav for the endgame. Any additional Human Champion can keep that fifth attack coming for longer.

Romans, Me-Burq-Sa, and Marcus. I don't know that these guys are overrated, but I do know that they're all ranked A- right now and that many 'Scapers haven't had the chance to personally take their measure (because the Roman Legion pack has been hard to find for quite a while). When Wave 1 is re-released and more people can throw Romans into the arena against new guys and see who wins, those A- rankings are going to get put to the test.

I've lost to Knights and/or Sir Gilbert too many times to not see his value. Jandar's Dispatch practically turns the Knights into zombies with better stats and more attacks.

Romans are cool. When the map or scenario benefits them, they're rather beastly for their points. I liked them a lot in Heat of Battle.

Greetings, everyone.

In my opinion, the unit currently most overrated is Nilfheim. He currently enjoys no movement bonding and, with a defense of only 4, he can be destroyed relatively quickly by (glyph-boosted) ranged squads. Consider how often he will earn his keep. Will he destroy 185 points-worth of enemy units? Will he give any sufficiently great benefit to your army (if you choose not to use him purely for attack)?

How are his 185 points justified? Granted, he has a very good attack and he probably will destroy a ranged squad or small hero, but that's all. He's NOT an effective glyph holder and his ORDER marker cost is through the roof (as is the case with most non-movement-bonding heroes). Add to this that his sculpt makes him difficult to tactically position on many scenarios, and his value decreases even further.

The combined point and order marker cost along with his relatively (for a 185-point unit) low defense and voluminous sculpt should have him ranked no better than a B+ in my opinion. I really don't know why Spider Poison ranked him so highly. I should add that this is one of the very few rankings that I do not agree with. Almost all others are bang-on as the game is at this time.

I see Nilfheim pretty often in tournaments, and I use (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/blog.php?b=516) him pretty often too. He has been one of my favorite figures since day one. Frankly, I think that a lot of people just have no idea what to do with him. They think he's some big invincible dragon and they throw him out there without thinking about it.

Unless you're facing a mostly hero or unique army, you've got to have some kind of melee screen for him. Nilfheim + 3x Rats will usually kill more than 300 points worth of stuff. It might run the whole table. Nilfheim + Raelin is very solid too. If you just run him alone against 3x Stingers, or a bonded melee army, expect him to get reamed. If you leave him on low ground or let him get engaged to multiple figures, you're doing it wrong. When protected well, Nilfheim's special attack and flight make him really deadly. His order marker cost is high? He has one of the most productive offensive turns in the entire game! Did you see the part where he can attack 3 times for 4 dice at range?

With rats, I think he's one of the best counters against ranged squads, especially the 4th Mass and Krav. He has about a 50/50 chance of beating Q9 in a duel. He's solid. His biggest issue is melee bonding armies and getting engaged- not his sculpt.

The power rankings are not a measure of how idiot-proof an army is. They're a measure of how good a unit is in capable hands. I could see maybe A-, but no lower than that, and I still think he's better than the Redcoats and anything else in the A- category.

Aside from Deadeye Dan, I think some of the most overrated figures are Isamu and Marcu. If you're using these figures late in the game, you're already losing. You might get lucky and win. If you're using them a lot early in the game, you'll soon be losing.

[Matthias Maccabeus]

The power rankings are not a measure of how idiot-proof an army is. They're a measure of how good a unit is in capable hands.

I think this is a very, very solid statement. For instance I've heard some of my rookie teens complaining that the Krav suck. Well that's because they don't keep them at range and let them get engaged.

And as far as Sir Gilbert goes, he makes the knights of Weston the best melee bonding team there is...period! (Even when these steamrolling Gladiators come out, I'm still going to put money on my knights of Maccabeus).

And Nilfheim does suck! :p
And Rats are for little girls!

[2xHero]

Hmmm...Deathreavers have been saved; Jexik can save Nilfheim, but I might give a little blurb anyway; Grimnak, Braxas and Q9 are left; and I still need to give my opinion.

Because Nilfheim is one of my brother's favorite heroes, I have had a lot of experience facing against him. I've seen what he can do, and he is my second most feared hero to be against. The order marker cost is not high at all, considering his offensive power is better than many squads. And, you don't have to worry about one little wound crippling your offense for a couple turns. Nilfheim currently is the most offensively flexible hero in the game. Sure, his defense isn't stellar, but only a handful of heroes are known for good survivability. If you think about it, he costs 5 points more than 3 squads of stingers, and he will have 3 attacks of 4 all the time, flying, and higher move.

Grimnak, drafted as a lone hero, is not a good unit. He is most valuable when drafted with Blade Gruts or Heavy Gruts. They bond with him, which will give you 5:!: attacks per turn and chomp. Plus, Grimnak increases the offense and defense of adjacent orcs. Chomp is extremely useful against high defense squads such as minions and samurai, plus it can bypass the Microcorp Stealth Armor as it does not inflict a wound. And chomp can be used against heroes.

Braxas doesn't do too well against cheap, expendable squads, but she basically gets three ranged-chomps that are not bound by adjacency. Even if Braxas is engaged, she can acid breath other targets.

Q9 is just plain reliably good. He is my most feared hero to be against. The only way I have been able to beat him is to make sure I have a good counter in my army or just get lucky. For me, the former works about half the time, and the latter is just not an option. Q9 can last forever, especially in a Vydar Range army, and he always gets a decent amount of attacks in each turn.

One more thing to note about Q9, Braxas, and Nilfheim, is that they do need backup. They don't cost 500 points; they don't make up an entire army. Also, they are immune most of the instant-destruction powers.

Finally, I say that the most over-rated units are the Marro Stingers and Cyprien. They are both good units, but I don't think they deserve all of the praise they get.

The Marro Stingers are cheap and powerful with decent defense for their price. That's a good combo. However, their low move and range leaves them too vulnerable to powerful melee squads and long-range armies. Maybe the people I go against use them properly, or not enough people use strong melee or long-range. Maybe they are quite good against piles of ranged commons (which I don't use.) Maybe my quirky armies are some of the few good match-ups against stingers, and I don't know what I'm talking about. :shrug:

Then, Cyprien I think is more over-rated than the Stingers. Sonya is almost necessary, which drives the cost of this combo up to 195 points. Over half of his offensive power comes from the D20, and even with Sonya, he has a 50% chance of causing 1 or more wounds, IIRC. I know that most of his power comes from his survivability, ability to bypass defense, and his unrivaled mobility. But Chilling Touch doesn't affect soulborgs, which is a probably with Major Q9, 'trons, and Deathreavers. Again, maybe my quirky armies are just a few of the good match-ups, but Cyprien does not have incredible power for his cost, he is vulnerable to instant destruction powers, and he doesn't have enough good match-ups to warrant all the praise he gets.

EDIT:
And Nilfheim does suck!
And Rats are for little girls!
:word: :neener:

One more thing: This thread is a good of example of how and what type of old thread to bring back. The thread is still relevant (units are still over-rated. This thread is not time sensitive.) And, the post that brought this thread back was contributing to the topic.

[Sarpedon]

Greetings, Jexik

Your staunch defense of Nilfheim is admirable. However, even you conceded that he might be a little overrated. I explained my objections to his ranking, so I don't need to go over them again. I just wanted to add that I did not say that he was "unplayable" or that his ranking should be based on whether or not a moron would be able to use him. My major objections to his rank are based on my experience - and that of my friends - when playing him against other equally ranked units.

If you put him up against that standard, you will probably see that he comes up short (not by a lot, of course). If you still think he deserves an A ranking, then I'll say what I usually do when my words fail: we'll agree to disagree. Ultimately it's a matter of opinion until it can be tested head-to-head on average tournament maps.

[Jexik]

Here, (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=658850&postcount=1357) spider_poison put him on a watch list to go down to an A-. Mattsertruckrally and a bunch of others rose up in defense of him, and he stayed an A.

You said he should be a B+. Does this make sense to you?

B+
Arkmer (50)
Arrow Gruts (40*)
Heavy Gruts (70*)
Microcorp Agents (100*)
Nilfheim(185)
Otonashi (10)
Sacred Band (50*)
Sentinels of Jandar (110*)
Sgt. Drake Alexander-SOTM (170)
Spider-Man (160)
Swog Rider (25*)

[padlock]

Because Nilfheim is one of my brother's favorite heroes, I have had a lot of experience facing against him. I've seen what he can do, and he is my second most feared hero to be against. The order marker cost is not high at all, considering his offensive power is better than many squads. And, you don't have to worry about one little wound crippling your offense for a couple turns. Nilfheim currently is the most offensively flexible hero in the game. Sure, his defense isn't stellar, but only a handful of heroes are known for good survivability. If you think about it, he costs 5 points more than 3 squads of stingers, and he will have 3 attacks of 4 all the time, flying, and higher move.



I just wanted to comment on the bolded part. Remember that the way Nilfheim's special works, is that if he has someone engaged to him and he fails to kill them, he can't attack another non adjacent opponent that turn. One particularly effective strategy when facing Nilfheim is to engage him with either 1 or 2 squad figures (preferably with high defense) so that he either has to risk disengagement or the chance of not getting to use his full 3 attacks that turn.

[Sarpedon]

Hello again, Jexik.

Yes, it does make sense to me. I think Nilfheim should be ranked as a B+ unit. Consider glyphs, order marker cost, positioning, low defense, etc.. Would he be one of the best B+ units? Yes indeed. He would probably be my first choice from amongst them. Please remember that the original post invites everyone to share their opinions. We are all entitled to our own and, I believe, we should all respect each other's. Spider Poison thought he should (perhaps) be demoted, others did not. Does that make Spider Poison wrong or non-sensical? As I said before, you can disagree and that's fine. You can't prove someone wrong on matters of opinion.

P.S. Don't forget (as I did) padlock's point regarding Nilfheim's special attack. Unlike Major Q9, he cannot use it to attack the same figure more than once per turn. If he fails to destroy the (single) figure to which he is engaged, he cannot continue and attack others that are not adjacent. That's a huge drawback!

[Aldin]

I'll toss my hat in the ring. Nilfheim certainly doesn't need much more support than he's already received, but I keep coming back to three ranged special attacks of four from a speedy flier. He is a powerhouse attacker and he also has one of the 'tougher' defense/life combinations. He is so powerful that a routine mapmaking question is how to deny height to him (and other double base figs, but of the fliers he's the most powerful). Nilf+SirG+3xKoW is an army that any potential tournament winner needs to be able to beat, one of the 'Gold Standards'.

But I'll toss out my overrated fig - Kaemon Awa. He's a medium-sized, non-soulborg, non-flier, non-bonding, non-cheerleader who only moves five and maxxes out at two range four attacks of four dice. All that in a lovely little 4/4 defense/life package. He's a great clean up unit because of counterstrike, but he falls so easily to ranged units that he's more of a B+ figure, comparable to but probably not as useful as Agent Skahen (who is the same price, faster, often shoots from height from greater range with two attacks of four, boosts other units and is much harder to kill from range).

~Aldin, not so awasomely

[1Mmirg]

The question of whether Nilfheim is A or A-, as Spider asked, is a good one; I've asked it myself. I have trouble seeing him as B+, unless another major change comes to the metagame. The ratings assume that you are going to play the units well and Nilfheim has little to do with glyph grabbing, for example. Your army needs some else to do that. And positioning him on most tournament maps is not so hard. (I can imagine lots of map where it could be hard, but most tourney maps are unit friendly.)

He offers (aside from perhaps Q9) the best ranged special attack in the game; I can't see him as being a waste of an Order Marker very often. Keep him safe, keep him at range, and he is a beast. When he finally does get caught, though, his stats are still solid. He is at the "magic" 4 def, with plenty of life and huge attack to keep him going a while.

Playing him with rats almost seems unfair against many armies. Personally, I love to use him with my Knights and Gilbert. He fills in the much needed special range attack and the Knights create a powerful (and bristling) meatshield for him. I'll admit it isn't a flawless army, but it sure is fun.

Might Nilfheim be an A-, maybe. A B+, well, I'll agree to disagree with you there, this time.

EDIT: Looks like I took too long to compose; Aldin has said many of the things I've said here.

[Jexik]

Kaemon's one of the better counters to Nilfheim, so that alone should put him at A in my book. ;)

(Seriously though, he's good. He's a very good end-game unit or utility figure when you don't have the points for Nilfheim. He was in the runner-up's army each of the last two years at GenCon).

I updated my sig.

[nyys]

Concerning the Deathreavers, if you think they're overrated then you're not using them correctly.

My six year old had the same reaction when he looked at their stats. Then after I explained that they're not used as an offenseive unit, but instead a defensive unit by pinning down units that don't have disengage (all while using very few OMs)... he now sees their value and uses them pretty often in our games.

I look at it this way, at 40 points a squad of Rats is an absolute steal. At 50 or 60, points, they're still worth their weight in gold.

[1Mmirg]

I have to add that I rarely find any unit overrated. This community has a way of knocking things down and putting them in their place.

I loved the Nakitas when they came out--and still play them--but I do so knowing their flaws. If people talked about them the way they do Q9, then they'd be overrated. But this board is tough and clear. They are not Q9. (And even Q9 gets plenty of critique.)

I'd like to think that Cyprien is overrated--and I do kind of think he is--but then I play against him in the hands of a someone who really understands his build and, well, he suddenly seems a lot less overrated. The Romans might be overrated, but then I've never played against UPC using them; no one I've played has really mastered their play, so I can't say I've really seen them in action.

There are units that people talk about that I don't see the way they do, but then I remember that I also don't play them the way they do (or against the same people they play against).

In the end, I'd say this community does a good job of questioning all the units and putting each in their place.

[gorthan313]

My vote for most overrated has to go to the original Raelin.

[Jexik]

My vote for most overrated has to go to the original Raelin.

Wrong. If you ask Craig Van Ness or spider who the best figure in the game is, they'd give you the same answer. I trust their opinions.

P.S. Don't forget (as I did) padlock's point regarding Nilfheim's special attack. Unlike Major Q9, he cannot use it to attack the same figure more than once per turn. If he fails to destroy the (single) figure to which he is engaged, he cannot continue and attack others that are not adjacent. That's a huge drawback!

1. Normal attack.

2. Leave the engagement.

Don't play him like Q9 and just sit there.

[nyys]

My vote for most overrated has to go to the original Raelin.


Overused.. sure. Overrated? :screwy:

[gorthan313]

My vote for most overrated has to go to the original Raelin.

Wrong.


Don't get me wrong. She is a great fig. But she has FAR too many viable counters to be considered the best fig in the game. First off, she always has a big target planted on the back of her head. Sure, you could shield her with Q9, but even the defense boosted bot can't protect her from EVERYTHING! I'll talk about some counters that I have found to this infamous combo:


Syvarris: He has enough range to OUTRANGE the Qster. He can move around Q9, and snipe away at Raelin.
Krav Maga: These guys should be able to withstand enough barrages from Q9 to kill Raelin.
Isamu: Every since this guy came out, I've always used him against Raelin.
Cyprien: 8 move, Stealth Flying, and Chilling Touch.
Krug: This guy can take down Raelin EASILY!
Airborne Elite: Drop and nuke Raelin.
Jotun: 8 attack still can do it's work whether Q9's there or not!


I guess what I am trying to say is that, in my experience at least, Q9 is better off WITHOUT Raelin, and that Raelin has too many counters to be considered the best unit in the game.

[SuperflyTNT]

You see, my friend, that you are not considering all the facts here.

1. Raelin is the only figure that on it's own can provide 2 extra attack dice to a 28 hex area (or so).

2. Raelin is ALWAYS one of the first targetted, but played well she rarely goes down. She can also be used very effectively as a decoy to distract from your true objective.

3. Raelin is clearly not the best in the game, but she does win the Oscar for Best Supporting Actress.

[gorthan313]

You see, my friend, that you are not considering all the facts here.

1. Raelin is the only figure that on it's own can provide 2 extra defense dice to a 28 hex area (or so).

2. Raelin is ALWAYS one of the first targetted, but played well she rarely goes down. She can also be used very effectively as a decoy to distract from your true objective.

3. Raelin is clearly not the best in the game, but she does win the Oscar for Best Supporting Actress.


1. Fixed;)! I know that. I just find more defensive units to be less fun than the offensive ones.
2. Enlighten me on how to play Raelin so that she rarely goes down.
3. THAT, my friends, is what I was trying to say with my previous post.

[dok]

I would assume that SuperflyTNT's "supporting actress" note was just making the point that, obviously, Raelin can't win by herself. That doesn't make her not the best figure in the game.

Enlighten me on how to play Raelin so that she rarely goes down.When placed on height, as far back as possible while still providing an aura, Raelin gives your opponent two bad choices:

Ignore Raelin and accept a disadvantage in the battle.


Extend your army forward and expose figures to your opponent's entire army so that you can attack Raelin.Some figures, like Cyprien, are relatively good at getting in for that attack quickly. But even Cyprien will generally be exposed to a full round of fire for a turn before getting a shot at Raelin. And of course, there's no guarantee Raelin actually dies right away.

The broader point here is you force your opponent to devote OMs to taking out a figure that is usually in a good defensive spot and takes a while to get to. If an opponent sent Krug on a beeline for Raelin, I would be happy. Even assuming Krug manages to avoid any screening units, I'm going to get one or two rounds of attacks on Krug before he even reaches the kyrie warrior, and another after Krug has done the deed. With a reasonably strong army and a little luck, that might be all Krug manages to kill.

If you sent Isamu after Raelin early in a game, I'd be happy, because that means I'm going to be attacking the rest of your army 3-4 times per order marker while you spend order markers on a figure that can attack once per turn. Isamu is my vote for most overrated.

[1Mmirg]

Nice points on Raelin, gorthan and TNT. Best Supporting Actress is the right title--but she is the kind of Supporting Actress that often makes the whole film.

A few other thoughts: I agree that the defensive play is less fun, but that doesn't change how effective she is--she is definitely quite effective. And, yes, she will go down (at some point) in most games, but in the mean time your army should have exacted a very high price for her death. I've rarely seen her not well worth her use (if I can stand to play a bit more defensively than I'd like).

EDIT: Oops, dok got in here first--excellent points as well, dok. (And, yes, if I had to choose an overrated unit, it would be Isamu.)

[gorthan313]

I would assume that SuperflyTNT's "supporting actress" note was just making the point that, obviously, Raelin can't win by herself. That doesn't make her not the best figure in the game.

Enlighten me on how to play Raelin so that she rarely goes down.When placed on height, as far back as possible while still providing an aura, Raelin gives your opponent two bad choices:


Ignore Raelin and accept a disadvantage in the battle.


Extend your army forward and expose figures to your opponent's entire army so that you can attack Raelin.Some figures, like Cyprien, are relatively good at getting in for that attack quickly. But even Cyprien will generally be exposed to a full round of fire for a turn before getting a shot at Raelin. And of course, there's no guarantee Raelin actually dies right away.

The broader point here is you force your opponent to devote OMs to taking out a figure that is usually in a good defensive spot and takes a while to get to. If an opponent sent Krug on a beeline for Raelin, I would be happy. Even assuming Krug manages to avoid any screening units, I'm going to get one or two rounds of attacks on Krug before he even reaches the kyrie warrior, and another after Krug has done the deed. With a reasonably strong army and a little luck, that might be all Krug manages to kill.

If you sent Isamu after Raelin early in a game, I'd be happy, because that means I'm going to be attacking the rest of your army 3-4 times per order marker while you spend order markers on a figure that can attack once per turn. Isamu is my vote for most overrated.


I have NEVER played an opponent who would let an enemy Raelin get to height without at least TRYING to stop her. If your opponents are camped on a hill, you're pretty much dead with OR without Raelin.

[Sarpedon]

Great discussion, everyone.

When we look at which units are overrated or not, we must necessarily speak relatively and about competitive (tournament) play. In addition, we must speak of "roles" as Superfly TNT first suggested. This means that units have to be considered:

i) In relation to their cost (price and order marker costs)
ii) In relation to different units.
iii) In relation to units with similar roles.

I'll just give a few examples in point form and then leave it to those who wish take it one/several steps further.

* Raelin, most would agree considering the above criteria, is the best support unit in the game (she greatly improves the Sentinels, Krav M.A., etc.), thus, as a support character she receives top marks. This does not mean that overall she is an A+ unit, but that as a support unit she is. She is sooooo specialized, that this is the only reason she is drafted. It's 95% of the reason she is drafted. Therefore, even if she only gets A's or B's in other categories, he rank is so heavily weighted on her specialization that she still averages an A+.

* The Deathreavers are blockers and glyph-grabbers. Is any common squad better than them at these two functions combined?

* The Marro Stingers are a "pure high-attack" common squad that, with the Hive, can reproduce. Is any common ranged squad better at attacking high-defense units on average tournament maps?

* The 4th Mass. are ranged experts at multiple small attacks (if they move) and medium attacks if they don't. Is any common ranged squad better at these?

These are just a few examples that illustrate how units that satisfy a need are highly regarded because they are chosen above others for single, specific purposes. Now, it doesn't always work that way. For example, Taelord is specialized, but just too overpriced. The situational specialists, such as the Obsidian Guards, Dzu-Teh, Marro Drudge, etc., are too specialized and that actually hurts their ranking.

Some units thrive as generalists, such as Major Q9. Even these, however, have some, and sometimes several, outstanding characteristics and can usually be greatly enhanced by support units thus increasing both their values. Others, such as Isamu, are poor in almost all ways but one: their point cost. Thus, as a small filler, is there anyone better than Isamu or Marcu?

[2xHero]

Sarpedon, an observation I just made is that the units you mentioned: they are the best at their jobs, they have moderate survivability, and they have a low point cost.

Gorthan, are you considering tournament-style maps when you evaluate Raelin? In all of the BoV maps, Raelin can reach height in 1 turn. After all, she is a single-space flier with 6 move. Once she is on height, she does not need to move for the rest of the game, and greatly helps your army as long as she is alive. There isn't really a good, reliable counter to Raelin. As Dok mentioned, if you try to take her out, you will be taking uncontested attacks from your opponent, but if you ignore her, you have a disadvantage for the whole battle.

[dok]

The situational specialists, such as the Obsidian Guards, Dzu-Teh, Marro Drudge, etc., are too specialized and that actually hurts their ranking.
Well, it's not exactly a question of being too specialized - as you say, it's that their specialty is situational. The OGs arguably can play several roles (blockers, glyph grabbers, main fighting force, etc) but unless you're on a lava map, they are overpriced at all of them. Raelin is great because her specialty (having more defense) is always useful, and because she is cheap given her value. Ditto for Marro Stingers, and their role, "efficiently killing things".

Others, such as Isamu, are poor in almost all ways but one: their point cost. Thus, as a small filler, is there anyone better than Isamu or Marcu?
Well, I like Marcu more than Isamu, for two reasons:
his flight, move, and high life makes him a very efficient glyph-grabber on some maps


he earns his points many times over if your opponent has access to the wound glyph.
But... no, nothing is better than those two at the "small filler" role. The thing is, "small filler" is not something an army needs to be successful.

[Aldin]

Great discussion, everyone.

When we look at which units are overrated or not, we must necessarily speak relatively and about competitive (tournament) play. In addition, we must speak of "roles" as Superfly TNT first suggested. This means that units have to be considered:

i) In relation to their cost (price and order marker costs)
ii) In relation to different units.
iii) In relation to units with similar roles.

I'll just give a few examples in point form and then let those who wish take it one/several steps further.

* Raelin, most would agree considering the above criteria, is the best support unit in the game (she greatly improves the Sentinels, Krav M.A., etc.), thus, as a support character she receives top marks. This does not mean that overall she is an A+ unit, but that as a support unit she is. She is sooooo specialized, that this is the only reason she is drafted. It's 95% of the reason she is drafted. Therefore, even if she only gets A's or B's in other categories, he rank is so heavily weighted on her specialization that she still averages an A+.

* The Deathreavers are blockers and glyph-grabbers. Is any common squad better than them at these two functions combined?

* The Marro Stingers are a "pure high-attack" common squad that, with the Hive, can reproduce. Is any common ranged squad better at attacking high-defense units on average tournament maps?

* The 4th Mass. are ranged experts at multiple small attacks (if they move) and medium attacks if they don't. Is any common ranged squad better at these?

These are just a few examples that illustrate how units that satisfy a need are highly regarded because they are chosen above others for single, specific purposes. Now, it doesn't always work that way. For example, Taelord is specialized, but just too overpriced. The situational specialists, such as the Obsidian Guards, Dzu-Teh, Marro Drudge, etc., are too specialized and that actually hurts their ranking.

Some units thrive as generalists, such as Major Q9. Even these, however, have some, and sometimes several, outstanding characteristics and can usually be greatly enhanced by support units thus increasing both their values. Others, such as Isamu, are poor in almost all ways but one: their point cost. Thus, as a small filler, is there anyone better than Isamu or Marcu?

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning, Sarpedon. Perhaps the biggest problem is that you fail to identify which roles are the competitive ones. Why is "common ranged squad better at attacking high-defense units on average tournament maps" a qualifying role instead of, say, "most mobile common ranged squad on average tournament maps" (Aubrien Archers) or "most dangerous to engage in melee common ranged squad on most tournament maps" (Tagawa Samurai Archers)?

For whatever it may be worth, even within what you've identifed I think there are oddities. The MCA are at least potentially better than the Stingers for the anti-high-defense role since they outrange the Stingers. The Gladiatrons are arguably better than the Rats at map control. The entire pool of <=20 point units is so small that picking half of them as the "best small filler" is just strange.

I simply find myself unable to draw any useful foundations for further discussion from your post. Perhaps if you first identified roles which are critical to tournament success? The only problem I foresee is that synergies are more important than roles (though there is some overlap since certain roles (Raelin) are essentially synergies as well). In truth, I'm not at all sure theory can prove much against years of pragmatic experience until that theory is winningly put into practice.

~Aldin, who notes that Glad/Blast just won another tournament

[Einar's puppy]

I'd have to say the most over rated is blastatrons. What good are they if the glads are impossible to find in stores? :p

I'd actually have to say the most over rated units are the Marro warriors. 2 attack never kills much for me.

[Elginb]

These days, I think Zelrig is the most overrated unit. Against somebody who knows how to arrange his/her start zone properly, Zelrig isn't that scary as a blitkrieg unit.

And I don't think he changes your play too much after the initial start zone exodus, either, because we've been dealing with DW9000 from day one-- most players are already well-trained in not clumping their armies together.

Sure, he's a ranged flyer who is pretty much guaranteed to obliterate any common figure he attacks... but he'll still usually only get to attack one figure at a time.

I've just never found him that scary. Maybe somebody here can argue in his favor...

[Toad Rocket]

Great discussion, everyone.

When we look at which units are overrated or not, we must necessarily speak relatively and about competitive (tournament) play. In addition, we must speak of "roles" as Superfly TNT first suggested. This means that units have to be considered:

i) In relation to their cost (price and order marker costs)
ii) In relation to different units.
iii) In relation to units with similar roles.



I would add...
iv) In relation to where the unit is ranked in the Power Rankings.

Each unit has a reputation of how good/bad it is. So then I would say the label of 'overrated' can only apply if you really disagree where the unit is currently rated.

[Darth Vader]

Dünd is overrated, in terms of power rankings, I seriously do not think that he deserves a D+, he is more like an F. Just my opinion.

[Sarpedon]

Hello, Aldin.

I didn't mean for my list of criteria to be exclusive or exhaustive. I did not pretend to create a grand, all-encompasing theory in a single post. I did not identify all the roles/synergies that are useful/necessary to win. What I did do, however is explain why a unit can cost 10 points and still be considered an A+ unit. I showed how unequally-weighted value (as in the case of Raelin) can make a unit superb even though most of it's stats are average or below-average for the cost.

In other words, I was trying to show that an A+ unit can be one for a number of (competitive) reasons. You're right that more criteria could be added to the list to explain the values of units I didn't cover. I would encourage you and others to do so. With such a tool, we would be better able to articulate why we think a unit is overrated or not.

I'm sure that we would conclude that Spider Poison's ratings are, by and large, quite accurate. However, by discussing the relative worth of units we can improve the ranking system and, by deepening our understanding of units and synergies, become better players in the process.

[gorthan313]

Gorthan, are you considering tournament-style maps when you evaluate Raelin? In all of the BoV maps, Raelin can reach height in 1 turn. After all, she is a single-space flier with 6 move. Once she is on height, she does not need to move for the rest of the game, and greatly helps your army as long as she is alive. There isn't really a good, reliable counter to Raelin. As Dok mentioned, if you try to take her out, you will be taking uncontested attacks from your opponent, but if you ignore her, you have a disadvantage for the whole battle.



If Raelin is camped on height the whole time, and the Raelin player has units such as Q9 and the Krav in Raelin's aura, then, you had better have a good gameplan up your sleeve, or you're gonna die!
I would probably take along the Theracus/Syvarris combo to cambat Raelin. Rush Theracus to height, and camp Syv there. Syv moves in, and pecks away at Raelin.

In my view, what would raise my opinion of Raelin would be if she was used as effectively in an army with NO other A+ units on her team OR the Krav. Because, in my mind, using Raelin to boost an already powerful unit like the Fourth, Q9, or the Krav is an effective, but cheap and annoying stunt.


I do acknowledge that Raelin 1 has a VERY powerful aura! I do find it more annoying than fun though, which is why I like Raelin Two better.

[Syrn]

Well, I'd have to say Zelrig. Usually Armies have a high defense and high life hero that can run up and engage Zelrig and rain 5 or 6 attack dice at him.
Most Underrated would be Tor-Kul-Na. Nobody really mentions him, but he and his grubs can kill just about everything. Except for Cyprien.

[Izner]

Well, I'd have to say Zelrig. Usually Armies have a high defense and high life hero that can run up and engage Zelrig and rain 5 or 6 attack dice at him.
Most Underrated would be Tor-Kul-Na. Nobody really mentions him, but he and his grubs can kill just about everything. Except for Cyprien.

Zelrig is definitely job-specific, but I won't say he's underrated.
I can't count how many times hes mowed through my Marros or my Gruts. :x. His flying makes it easy for him to get the first punch, so even if I get a hero or two up to take him out, it's pretty certain he's gonna wreck something first.

[padlock]

I'll list my picks by current ranking in the power rankings.

A+: Major Q9
A: Laglor
A-: Marcu
B+: Arkmer
B: Aubrien Archers
B-: Armoc Vipers

Anything under B- is already poorly rated, so I wont bother with those.

[Jexik]

Nice points on Raelin, gorthan and TNT. Best Supporting Actress is the right title--but she is the kind of Supporting Actress that often makes the whole film.

Actually, I'd say that she won the award for best supporting actress. She was also nominated for all 5 different movies.


In my view, what would raise my opinion of Raelin would be if she was used as effectively in an army with NO other A+ units on her team OR the Krav. Because, in my mind, using Raelin to boost an already powerful unit like the Fourth, Q9, or the Krav is an effective, but cheap and annoying stunt.

She makes every army [except the 4th Mass] better. Both of the armies that spider has won with at the main event in GenCon (3x Swogs, 3x AG's, Krug, Raelin in 2006, and 4x Glads, 2x Blasts, Raelin in 2008) would be significantly worse without Raelin. No A+ units there. The Arrow Gruts used to be A's largely because of how he felt about their performance in 2006, but he later dropped them to B+.

I'd actually flip your statement on its head and say that Joe wouldn't have gone as far without Raelin in either of those tourneys, and that Matt's Q9/Krav/Laglor army wouldn't have won in 2007 if he didn't have Raelin.

[Delta Dragoon]

The Einar Imperium! Everyone talks them up (atleast everyone I play against), but I feel like they go down to easy for 140 points. James Murphy took all three of the in a turn. A TURN! I understand it wasn't bright to put all three next to each other, but the starting limit was at the max...

[Toad Rocket]

The EI? Perhaps your inner circle may talk them up, but if you go to the Books on the forum, or the Power Rankings, you will see that they are not rated very high at all. Great first strike units for sure, but fragile.

[gorthan313]

In my view, what would raise my opinion of Raelin would be if she was used as effectively in an army with NO other A+ units on her team OR the Krav. Because, in my mind, using Raelin to boost an already powerful unit like the Fourth, Q9, or the Krav is an effective, but cheap and annoying stunt.

She makes every army [except the 4th Mass] better. Both of the armies that spider has won with at the main event in GenCon (3x Swogs, 3x AG's, Krug, Raelin in 2006, and 4x Glads, 2x Blasts, Raelin in 2008) would be significantly worse without Raelin. No A+ units there. The Arrow Gruts used to be A's largely because of how he felt about their performance in 2006, but he later dropped them to B+.

I'd actually flip your statement on its head and say that Joe wouldn't have gone as far without Raelin in either of those tourneys, and that Matt's Q9/Krav/Laglor army wouldn't have won in 2007 if he didn't have Raelin.


There are DEFINITELY some units who are better off without Raelin 1 in my view.
Let's take Cyprien for example, a unit who works well as a shock trooper. One of Cyp's biggest strengths is speed, obviously since he has 8 move and stealth flying. It would be quite detrimental to Cyprien in my view to have to worry about staying within Raelin's aura. I also believe that Drones are better without Raelin, for the same reason as Cyprien. Izumi work well with Raelin, but I do not think that the Kozuke do, for the speed issue. Raelin works better with a more defensive player in my view.
I have almost ZERO knowledge about tried and tested tournament armies, as I only play casually, so that might explain my ignorance as to how competitive Raelin 1 is.

[Simpsons Scaper]

I'd also say the Shades are better without Raelin, for the same reasons. Plus, 4 defence is allready fairly solid.

[Jexik]

There are DEFINITELY some units who are better off without Raelin 1 in my view.
*snip* Raelin works better with a more defensive player in my view.


Replace the underlined part with, "ranged units" and we'd be in agreement. You're right though- I shouldn't have said every army... but she's darn close. She even pops up in some successful melee armies though.

I agree that Cyprien and Drones don't work particularly well with Old Raelin. Melee in general is kind of at a disadvantage in Heroscape, and I think it largely has to do with the consequences of the way that height advantage and the engagement rules function. Raelin reinforces this mechanical bias and makes ranged units + Raelin truly frightening and dominant when played well.

[SuperflyTNT]

I disagree with you blokes who say Raelin I isn't good with the 4th Mass...She provides a +2 instead of a +1 Valiant bonus and for 1 squad of 4th she can protect at least 16 of the 4th Mass. She can provide the much needed cover for them to advance to position with the Knights while protecting them as well, and it forces your opponent to spend order markers getting to her and killing her..then even in DEATH she provides the +1 defense Valiant bonus by her absence.There really is no army that doesn't fare better without her.

[Poseidon's trident]

There are DEFINITELY some units who are better off without Raelin 1 in my view.
*snip* Raelin works better with a more defensive player in my view.


Replace the underlined part with, "ranged units" and we'd be in agreement. You're right though- I shouldn't have said every army... but she's darn close. She even pops up in some successful melee armies though.

I agree that Cyprien and Drones don't work particularly well with Old Raelin. Melee in general is kind of at a disadvantage in Heroscape, and I think it largely has to do with the consequences of the way that height advantage and the engagement rules function. Raelin reinforces this mechanical bias and makes ranged units + Raelin truly frightening and dominant when played well.
Raelin does work well paired with ranged units but she also works well with defensive units. Example, Gurei-Oni paired with Raelin can be devastating against common ranged units. 6 defence with the ranged counter strike special he has, will take down most ranged squads. Of course without Raelin he is not nearly as effective.

[SuperflyTNT]

Sorry for DPing, using my handheld.

In the case of a Cyprien army she still is great. If C is your shock trooper then you're not worried about protecting him. It's the remaining squads that need her, especially when you consider that once you've spent 150 on Cyppicup you have less to spend on remaining units and the longer each squaddie lasts the more effective the order marker becomes.

As an aside, using Cyppicup as a shock trooper is really not his best utilization. Using him as a sniper to fly in and lock down or disrupt opponent's key positions after engagement has begun is far more effective because it forces you opponent to play on your terms and changes dramatically their placement of order markers.
If you play him early as a fly-n-munch shock trooper you spend all your order markers attacking and hoping you kill his weight in squaddies (8 Knights or 8 4th Mass) with 1 iffy pseudo-attack and 1 normal attack per turn where the enemy may have as many as 5 attacks upon him since they're generally still all bunched up at the start zone.

Better to fly him out early to a central position and keep putting the X order marker on him to retain the surprise attack when your opponents are on high ground that would be difficult to effectively engage with melee squaddies.

[Xn F M]

I disagree with you blokes who say Raelin I isn't good with the 4th Mass...She provides a +2 instead of a +1 Valiant bonus and for 1 squad of 4th she can protect at least 16 of the 4th Mass. She can provide the much needed cover for them to advance to position with the Knights while protecting them as well, and it forces your opponent to spend order markers getting to her and killing her..then even in DEATH she provides the +1 defense Valiant bonus by her absence.There really is no army that doesn't fare better without her.

Superfly, while Raelin is providing +2 defense with her aura the 4th Mass are only netting one defense die. While the jump from three to four defense is a big one, I'd argue that it's not worth the cost of those four squadies (at the vast majority of point values). And that's before taking into account the loss of mobility and the minor dip in order marker flexability.

For what's it's worth, I'd say that Deadeye Dan is probably one of, if not the, most overrated unit. If his "roll no defense dice" special was a special ability rather than a special attack, I'd think he could live up to the hype. But I have never seen DD be effective. It's just too easy to get a squad up in range of his two defense while taking minimal losses. Ten range is nice, I mean it's two to three garonteed shots against almost any advancing unit; but those OMs getting him into place would usually be better invested on something else.

[Killometer]

If his "roll no defense dice" special was a special ability rather than a special attack, I'd think he could live up to the hype.

Time for a stupid newbie question, I'm afraid.

What would make this so much better than that?

[Jexik]

If his "roll no defense dice" special was a special ability rather than a special attack, I'd think he could live up to the hype.

Time for a stupid newbie question, I'm afraid.

What would make this so much better than that?

I'll give you a hint. It's your favorite rule ever.

[ABOMINATION]

For what's it's worth, I'd say that Deadeye Dan is probably one of, if not the, most overrated unit. If his "roll no defense dice" special was a special ability rather than a special attack, I'd think he could live up to the hype. But I have never seen DD be effective. It's just too easy to get a squad up in range of his two defense while taking minimal losses. Ten range is nice, I mean it's two to three garonteed shots against almost any advancing unit; but those OMs getting him into place would usually be better invested on something else.
I would disagree. DED is a risky unit to use, sure, but if you put one OM on him once in a while, he'll do some damage. Since he's not all that powerful, your opponent will tend to ignore him and go after more powerful/larger units such as: Charos, Major Q9/10, Nilfheim, etc. DED is also a great unit to use against slow-moving, high cost squads. Give him a body guard like the Nakita Agents, and he'll easily earn his points.

[Jexik]

Rationalizing Deadeye Dan makes baby Jandar cry.

[Killometer]

If his "roll no defense dice" special was a special ability rather than a special attack, I'd think he could live up to the hype.

Time for a stupid newbie question, I'm afraid.

What would make this so much better than that?

I'll give you a hint. It's your favorite rule ever.

Ahh, you can use it against someone that you are not engaged with while you are engaged?


Edit: I was typing this while you were editing your post, Jexik. But I got it right!

[ParaGoomba Slayer]

Q9. There, I said it. :p

3 attacks of 3 is no big deal. Just counter draft a heavy hitter or two. Jotun?

[Simpsons Scaper]

Q9. There, I said it. :p

3 attacks of 3 is no big deal. Just counter draft a heavy hitter or two. Jotun?
True, 1 vs. 1 Jotun can kill Q9, but Jotun is more expensive then Q and could wasily be tied down by a squad of 'Reavers, 1 by 1 by 1. Q9 makes attacks of 4-5 (Hight) and down goes Jotun!

[gorthan313]

There are DEFINITELY some units who are better off without Raelin 1 in my view.
*snip* Raelin works better with a more defensive player in my view.


Replace the underlined part with, "ranged units" and we'd be in agreement. You're right though- I shouldn't have said every army... but she's darn close. She even pops up in some successful melee armies though.

I agree that Cyprien and Drones don't work particularly well with Old Raelin. Melee in general is kind of at a disadvantage in Heroscape, and I think it largely has to do with the consequences of the way that height advantage and the engagement rules function. Raelin reinforces this mechanical bias and makes ranged units + Raelin truly frightening and dominant when played well.



I'm a more melee player myself, so the fact that Raelin works to make many ALREADY powerful ranged units better is frustrating to me. I personally don't like using Raelin 1 because of the low manueverability my units would have if they wished to stay in her aura. I'm also a supporter of Raelin 2.
Heh. I would like to see a unit that does this for melee units....

[SuperflyTNT]

Q9 is overrated. I'd take KMA and Raelin for the same points all day long or even Omnicrons and Raelin before Q9. 180 points on one figure that has a good range but only 9 attack dice over 3 attacks doesn't compare to 9 attack dice over 3 attacks Plus the fact that if KMA have height they get 12 dice. To add to that, Q9 gets tied up by engagement more easily and the KMA are more flexible - you can spread them out so it's harder to engage them all at once so you force your opponent to spread out to kill them.

[Rich10]

I think that you need to make a distinction between an overrated unit and one that doesn't fit your style of play. For example, I would rather play the 10th Regiment than the 4th Mass. I like Bayonet Attack and prefer not to limit myself to valiant armies. The 4th Mass are generally considered to be a better squad than the 10th Regiment. Just because my personal style of play doesn't support this, doesn't make the 4th Mass overrated or "bad". Along the same lines, for people that aren't effectively using Raelin (ROTV), Q9, deathreavers, ..., the problem isn't with the figures.

[SuperflyTNT]

I agree, but if you look at the winningest armies, Q9 is rarely among them.

I've only lost one game to Q9, my first game EVER, and since then I don't really worry about him. He's never, ever gotten even close to his points' worth against me with any army I've played.

[gorthan313]

I think that you need to make a distinction between an overrated unit and one that doesn't fit your style of play. For example, I would rather play the 10th Regiment than the 4th Mass. I like Bayonet Attack and prefer not to limit myself to valiant armies. The 4th Mass are generally considered to be a better squad than the 10th Regiment. Just because my personal style of play doesn't support this, doesn't make the 4th Mass overrated or "bad". Along the same lines, for people that aren't effectively using Raelin (ROTV), Q9, deathreavers, ..., the problem isn't with the figures.


That statement there is all too true. I can't use Raelin because she is more defensive than offensive, but other players more probably more used to playing defensively would disagree with me on that Raelin 1 is overrated. Some people think that Q9 is overrated, and SuperflyTNT would rather take Raelin 1 and the Krav than the big bot.
Raelin 1 and the Krav would either need to stay in one place to be at full potential, or they could move very fast at all, as they would wish to wait up for the other unit. I personally would rather take the Qster than Raelin 1/Krav, as the Major is more manueverable.

But seriously, Rich10 is absolutely right on why we might think a certain unit is overrated...

[shidler9]

anyone who thinks Isamu is overrated probably hasn't played him much at all. he has a better chance of blocking attacks than Spiderman, a MARVEL unit, has a 5 attack against any Jandar units(Usually six if on height) can go right through the enemy lines and do some serious damage, and is only 10 points!!!! It is almost impossible for him to not kill his point worth, and if he doesnt, he is still the lowest cost card in the game(with Otonashi).


One more thing: This thread is a good of example of how and what type of old thread to bring back. The thread is still relevant (units are still over-rated. This thread is not time sensitive.) And, the post that brought this thread back was contributing to the topic.

Are youtalking about me? because my post wasnt trying to do that..:)

[Xn F M]

If his "roll no defense dice" special was a special ability rather than a special attack, I'd think he could live up to the hype.

Time for a stupid newbie question, I'm afraid.

What would make this so much better than that?

I'll give you a hint. It's your favorite rule ever.

Actually, I was thinking something more along these lines:

Deadeye Dan Awesome Shot: If DeD did not move this turn and attacks with a normal attack, his target may not roll defense dice.

You know, so he can use height advantage with it and have a better than 50/50 shot of killing a squaddie.

[shidler9]

i was JUST going to post that when you beat me to it! :D

[Aldin]

anyone who thinks Isamu is overrated probably hasn't played him much at all. he has a better chance of blocking attacks than Spiderman, a MARVEL unit, has a 5 attack against any Jandar units(Usually six if on height) can go right through the enemy lines and do some serious damage, and is only 10 points!!!! It is almost impossible for him to not kill his point worth, and if he doesnt, he is still the lowest cost card in the game(with Otonashi).

*chuckle*

Marrden Hounds, one roll.

~Aldin, searching the world for alternative damage sources

[dok]

Q9 is overrated. I'd take KMA and Raelin for the same points all day longThat's hardly harsh criticism. That's about the sickest 180 points out there. The KMA easily make the jump from A to A+ when mixed with RaeRae.

or even Omnicrons and Raelin before Q9.Whoa, really? Defense dice roll low way too often to go that route, IMO. Stealth Dodge gives the KMA the staying power to make an impact without backups. A single squad of Omnicrons is going to be down to two attacks really quickly.

180 points on one figure that has a good range but only 9 attack dice over 3 attacks doesn't compare to 9 attack dice over 3 attacks Plus the fact that if KMA have height they get 12 dice.
To me, the "Q9's attack isn't potent enough" argument is sort of laughable. Three attacks of 3 is a good offensive turn, period. Are there better offensive turns? Sure. Can the KMA out-do them if your opponent gives up height? Yeah. Can Nilfheim do better if he has multiple targets? Yeah. Can knights plus bonding deliver five similar attacks, in stead of three? Yeah. But 3 attacks of 3 is good. What makes Q9 such a powerhouse is that that perfectly decent attack round is backed up by 4 life and 7 defense.

Additionally, that Q9's attack is a special is a big advantage against many opponents, notably rats. It does mean he can't take height advantage, but it's a decent trade-off.

To add to that, Q9 gets tied up by engagement more easily and the KMA are more flexible - you can spread them out so it's harder to engage them all at once so you force your opponent to spread out to kill them.
The basic issue for the KMA is that if they get engaged, you're going to lose one or more attacks pretty quickly. Q9 is easier to engage, but he can tank for himself in a way that the KMA cannot.

And of course, it's not as though you can't take Raelin if you take Q9.

[jschild]

One maps with lots of cover, Isamu is not overrated - On open maps, he is overrated - all comes down to the cover because that 55% chance to dodge only helps if he can get close to his target.

[SuperflyTNT]

anyone who thinks Isamu is overrated probably hasn't played him much at all. he has a better chance of blocking attacks than Spiderman, a MARVEL unit, has a 5 attack against any Jandar units(Usually six if on height) can go right through the enemy lines and do some serious damage, and is only 10 points!!!! It is almost impossible for him to not kill his point worth, and if he doesnt, he is still the lowest cost card in the game(with Otonashi).

*chuckle*

Marrden Hounds, one roll.

~Aldin, searching the world for alternative damage sources

That's not fair, though...they have a pretty high bar to hit.

Isamu Killers:
Anyone with Mindshackle
Marrden Hounds
Braxas
Anyone with Counterstrike
Lava
...<and the beat goes on>

~SuperflyTNT, listingly... :lol:

And Dok, I respectfully disagree still, even after your arguments. I will take a lot of figures for that 180 points over Q9...he's a good figure, no doubt, but not as strong as people such as yourself like to argue.

Now if you want to go Q9 + Raelin, well there's a horse of a different color. Now you're talking about 260 points, and there's very little hope that he will be able to take out 260 points, let alone if he moves he causes an OM to go to Raelin to follow.

All in all, Q9 is capable, but he certainly doesn't live up to the hype anymore.

[Rich10]

And Dok, I respectfully disagree still, even after your arguments. I will take a lot of figures for that 180 points over Q9...he's a good figure, no doubt, but not as strong as people such as yourself like to argue.

Now if you want to go Q9 + Raelin, well there's a horse of a different color. Now you're talking about 260 points, and there's very little hope that he will be able to take out 260 points, let alone if he moves he causes an OM to go to Raelin to follow.

All in all, Q9 is capable, but he certainly doesn't live up to the hype anymore.Using the matchup calculator, it will take 22.25 attacks of 3 to kill Q9. If we assume a squad of 3, that's over 7 turns for a full power Q9 to blast away at them with likely greater range. If you also consider his normal attack (with high range), the flexibility of his special attack, and Q9's resistance to certain attacks (chilling touch, plague, toxic skin), is there really a better all around figure in HS? I know that there are counters to Q9 (Krug, stingers, etc.), but I don't think that any single figure does so many things so well.

By the way, with Raelin (ROTV), it takes nearly 40 attacks of 3 to defeat Q9. This uses the (likely incorrect) assumption that Raelin wouldn't be attacked and defeated first.

[dok]

anyone who thinks Isamu is overrated probably hasn't played him much at all. he has a better chance of blocking attacks than Spiderman, a MARVEL unit
Not so. Spiderman's defense makes his overall chances of blocking most attacks much better.

has a 5 attack against any Jandar units(Usually six if on height) can go right through the enemy lines and do some serious damage,
I'm not sure why a melee unit would "usually" get height. But more fundamentally, this is exactly the sort of thinking that leads me to think Isamu is overrated. Sure, he's got a nice fat attack against certain enemies. In the right spot, he can blow past blocking units and deliver some wounds to Raelin or Nilfheim, "earning his points" many times over. But you're not considering what else you could be doing with that order marker. Isamu is one attack. Look at every other non-cheerleader A or A+ unit, and you see multiple attacks.

If you're attacking with Isamu and I'm attacking with a squad or Q9 or Nilfheim, I'm going to kill figures faster than you. It doesn't matter how inexpensive Isamu is. What matters is what he brings to your army. If you're spending OMs on him, your OMs will do less than my OMs.

He still has some uses that are valuable, notably:


he can go nuts in cleanup (after the squads and multiple attackers are trimmed down).


occasionally, when an opportunity presents itself, he can slip in kamikaze style and do some damage while the rest of your army is safely out of range. This is relatively rare, but great if you can manage it.

For those reasons, combined with his minuscule cost, I think he's a solid "A" unit. The only reason I think he's overrated is that some people seem to think he's the best figure in the game.

and is only 10 points!!!! It is almost impossible for him to not kill his point worth, and if he doesnt, he is still the lowest cost card in the game(with Otonashi).
Setting aside that "killing his points" is not a meaningful measure - It's easy for him to not kill his points. It just takes one whiffed vanish roll against a ranged attack.

[dok]

Now if you want to go Q9 + Raelin, well there's a horse of a different color. Now you're talking about 260 points, and there's very little hope that he will be able to take out 260 points, let alone if he moves he causes an OM to go to Raelin to follow.
Q9's range allows him to usually hang out in Raelin's aura and not force additional Raelin moves after the first one. More broadly, unless we're playing 260 point armies, I don't need Q9 to kill 260 points. I need him to kill more efficiently than the opposition. Raelin can support other figures before Q9 gets involved, and after Q9's demise. If my opponent goes after Raelin first, that's more attacks for Q9 before he even starts rolling defense dice.

I know that there are counters to Q9 (Krug, stingers, etc.), but I don't think that any single figure does so many things so well.I think stingers are the only figure that can really compete with Q9 in the "swiss army knife" competition.

[Izner]

I think stingers are the only figure that can really compete with Q9 in the "swiss army knife" competition.

How so? I love the Stingers, but I'm not seeing the swiss army knife in them.

[dok]

I think stingers are the only figure that can really compete with Q9 in the "swiss army knife" competition.

How so? I love the Stingers, but I'm not seeing the swiss army knife in them.

Short answer: one of the top main event armies last year was Raelin + Stingers x7 (+Marcu). I could stop there and basically consider my argument adequate. But to flesh it out:

- 3 defense and relative cheapness means they can be used as glyph grabbers, to rush up and engage KMA, or in other relatively expendable ways. They're not as good in this role as the rats, but they're better than most.

- 3 attacks of 3+ means they are effective against common squads. They're not quite as good in this role as knights+champions or 4th Mass, but they're close.

- Range and juicing means they are effective heavy hitters against tough heroes. They're not quite as good in this role as Krug or a handful of others, but they're close.

I'm not sure any figure does all three of those things as well as the the stingers do all three of them.

[Jexik]

I agree, but if you look at the winningest armies, Q9 is rarely among them.

What? (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=11656)

I think we'd see Q9 winning more tournaments if more people played him. A lot seem to want to win with something new.

[Matthias Maccabeus]

I think this thread is very interesting. I like to read what unit or units people think are overrated, underrated etc. I think it really comes down to 2 things, which several of you have alluded to already. Your playing style and your understanding of the game.

For instance dok mentioned the stingers being the best "swiss" army knife, and if anybody reads the posts here on 'scapers, you would see that many people tend to agree with him.

I however think the stingers are a B unit at best and are the most overrated units in this game. Mainly because I play knights quite often and Knights > stingers. I've only ever lost 1 out of 10 tournament games to stingers and that loss was because Hawthorne tunred on me, not because of the stingers.

The units that I fear most are WoA (thank goodness nobody ever brings them to tourneys!) and Charos (ask Jexik about that one) / Samurai. And of course rats! I believe these units are underrated, but of course that's more becaue of my play-style tendencies.

If I played something else like Sentinels all the time, I would probably think that Braxas and the hounds are underrated, etc.

[dok]

I however think the stingers are a B unit at best and are the most overrated units in this game. Mainly because I play knights quite often and Knights > stingers. I've only ever lost 1 out of 10 tournament games to stingers and that loss was because Hawthorne tunred on me, not because of the stingers.

Excellent point about what you play influencing your feelings on over/underrated. The knights are almost certainly the best figure against stingers - knights own stingers. Stingers and rats have a decent chance against knights, though.

[Jexik]

What would the MM rankings (Knights and their worst matchups combined with MM's perceptions) look like?

A+
Knights of Weston
Sir Gilbert
Warriors of Ashra
Deathreavers
Gladiatrons
Blastatrons

A
Alastair MacDirk
Eldgrim
Krav Maga Agents
Marro Warriors
Raelin
Charos
Isamu
Heavy Gruts
Izumi Samurai
Tagawa Samurai

A-
Major Q9 (would be higher, but range is for little girls)
Grimnak
Krug
Arrow Gruts
Mimring
Swog Rider
Nerak
Sir Hawthorne
Finn
4th Massachusetts Line
10th Regiment of Foot
Marcus Decimus Gallus
Tagawa Samurai Archers

B+
Thorgrim....

[Xn F M]

What would the MM rankings (Knights and their worst matchups combined with MM's perceptions) look like?

:rofl:

Don't forget those pesky Nakitas. They're far better that the kravs if you're playing against a melee army.

[SuperflyTNT]

Hey, I play the WoA all the time and have some success with them as well, provided they're under Raelin's aura until they engage the Knights.

WoA v. Knights...WoA will win 7/10 times, in my opinion. WoA are even better than rats, in my opinion, because of the fact that they can actually be effective hitters AND they can be summoned en masse by Emiroon.

They are indeed underrated, but they need to have certain armies with them to be effective, and this is not entirely conducive to a winning tournament army, IMO.

[ParaGoomba Slayer]

Q9. There, I said it. :p

3 attacks of 3 is no big deal. Just counter draft a heavy hitter or two. Jotun?
True, 1 vs. 1 Jotun can kill Q9, but Jotun is more expensive then Q and could wasily be tied down by a squad of 'Reavers, 1 by 1 by 1. Q9 makes attacks of 4-5 (Hight) and down goes Jotun!

While Jotun does cost more than Q9, he will end up killing more than just Q9.

180 points on one figure that has a good range but only 9 attack dice over 3 attacks doesn't compare to 9 attack dice over 3 attacks Plus the fact that if KMA have height they get 12 dice.
To me, the "Q9's attack isn't potent enough" argument is sort of laughable. Three attacks of 3 is a good offensive turn, period. Are there better offensive turns? Sure. Can the KMA out-do them if your opponent gives up height? Yeah. Can Nilfheim do better if he has multiple targets? Yeah. Can knights plus bonding deliver five similar attacks, in stead of three? Yeah. But 3 attacks of 3 is good. What makes Q9 such a powerhouse is that that perfectly decent attack round is backed up by 4 life and 7 defense.

3 attacks of 3 is not a good offensive turn, it's just average. 3 attacks of 4 is good, and 4 attacks of 3 is good, but 3 attacks of 3 is just "meh". If I want 3 attacks of 3, I'd pick 3 squads of Drones for 30 points less.

[ParaGoomba Slayer]

Double post. Sorry.

[Simpsons Scaper]

Q9. There, I said it. :p

3 attacks of 3 is no big deal. Just counter draft a heavy hitter or two. Jotun?
True, 1 vs. 1 Jotun can kill Q9, but Jotun is more expensive then Q and could wasily be tied down by a squad of 'Reavers, 1 by 1 by 1. Q9 makes attacks of 4-5 (Hight) and down goes Jotun!

While Jotun does cost more than Q9, he will end up killing more than just Q9.



Q9 will also kill more then just Jotun (If you use the 'Reaver strategy. Plus, 1 well-placed squad of KMA can easily make Jotun go down! I've seen Jotun die in 2 attacks of 4! This is rare, but 6 or 7 attacks of 4 from the KMA will take him down. If you use a good hit and run strategy, you can easily do that against Jotun (I know, I've done it, and had it used against me).

[pti8]

Q9's is a special attack though. And, as we all know, special attacks bypass so many abilities. Also 4 attack 7 defense and 8 range are nothing to sneeze at.

[killercactus]

3 attacks of 3 is not a good offensive turn, it's just average. 3 attacks of 4 is good, and 4 attacks of 3 is good, but 3 attacks of 3 is just "meh". If I want 3 attacks of 3, I'd pick 3 squads of Drones for 30 points less.

I disagree. 3 attacks of 3 is not just a good offensive turn - it's a great offensive turn. Try to name another unit in the game that can deliver 3 ranged attacks of 3 after taking wounds consistently without bonuses or special conditions. The Stingers can do it if they have enough units to replenish their ranks. That's it. And on top of that, Q9's attacks are Special, and he provides the option of a long-range attack of 4.

Nilfheim can do it if he's unengaged, or engaged to three different figures, and he can't focus his attacks on one figure. That's why he's so good with Deathreavers - they prevent him from getting engaged and losing all those dice. The Trons can do it if they can position their Glads correctly. The Mass/10th can do it with optimal positioning. But, just Q9 and the Stingers can do it anytime, no matter what. That's it.

[SuperflyTNT]

3 attacks of 3 is not a good offensive turn, it's just average. 3 attacks of 4 is good, and 4 attacks of 3 is good, but 3 attacks of 3 is just "meh". If I want 3 attacks of 3, I'd pick 3 squads of Drones for 30 points less.

No, up to 9 attacks of 3, which is seriously game-changing.

[NamibianScaper]

Did anyone notice there is a gap between two of the posts in this thread of 2 years and 7 months? A lot of new units were added in that time.

My clue was when somebody said, "Truth just won a tournament with..."

Anyway, before I got to Aldin's post, I was also thinking of one guy: Kaemon Awa.

[SuperflyTNT]

No way is he overrated. Kaemon is a good, playable tournament fig that fits well into almost any army.

[killercactus]

No way is he overrated. Kaemon is a good, playable tournament fig that fits well into almost any army.

I actually agree that Kaemon is a little overrated, but not much. He's solid, but I don't think he wins games for you. Some people will disagree with me.

[SymphonyScaper]

No way is he overrated. Kaemon is a good, playable tournament fig that fits well into almost any army.

I actually agree that Kaemon is a little overrated, but not much. He's solid, but I don't think he wins games for you. Some people will disagree with me.

Kaemon is overrated. Five life is a good amount, but 4 life is a little feeble, and Kaemon is no exception.

I'm not saying I don't like Kaemon. No, he's a great figure, but the 4 life holds him back.

[gorthan313]

No way is he overrated. Kaemon is a good, playable tournament fig that fits well into almost any army.

I actually agree that Kaemon is a little overrated, but not much. He's solid, but I don't think he wins games for you. Some people will disagree with me.

Kaemon is overrated. Five life is a good amount, but 4 life is a little feeble, and Kaemon is no exception.

I'm not saying I don't like Kaemon. No, he's a great figure, but the 4 life holds him back.


How?

[Messenger]

I'm not saying I don't like Kaemon. No, he's a great figure, but the 4 life holds him back.How?Agent Carr has 4def and 4life and that's been one of the major complaints about him, that he dies too quickly.

No, I'm not saying that Carr = Kaemon, but their defense and life stats do match.

[NamibianScaper]

Agent Carr has 4def and 4life and that's been one of the major complaints about him, that he dies too quickly.

No, I'm not saying that Carr = Kaemon, but their defense and life stats do match.

Amen, Messenger.

Agent Carr was exactly the comparison I had in mind. Both of those low-life (I mean that in the best possible way) figures are great if you get the drop on your opponent. Kaemon is able to do that a lot more often than Agent Carr... but both are weak if attacked first. It's the same for Sudema, DED, and other figures mentioned but they're not nearly as highly "rated" as Keamon Awa.

[gorthan313]

Agent Carr has 4def and 4life and that's been one of the major complaints about him, that he dies too quickly.

No, I'm not saying that Carr = Kaemon, but their defense and life stats do match.

Amen, Messenger.

Agent Carr was exactly the comparison I had in mind. Both of those low-life (I mean that in the best possible way) figures are great if you get the drop on your opponent. Kaemon is able to do that a lot more often than Agent Carr... but both are weak if attacked first. It's the same for Sudema, DED, and other figures mentioned but they're not nearly as highly "rated" as Keamon Awa.


Carr dies quicker generally because he is stronger in melee combat. If you charge Kaemon straight into a group of enemy soldiers like you might with Carr, then you're playing the samurai wrong.

[Messenger]

It's odd, but I recall when first playing master set only games, that Sgt Drake would last a lot longer than Agent Carr (probably due to Thorian Speed).

Is there a math guy who can calculate this:

Which is better (who lasts longer),
4 defense and 4 life (Carr & Kaemon), or
3 defense and 5 life (Drake & Raelin)?

[Einar's puppy]

The thing with Kaemon is this: people think he should be used early game.

I don't think this is right. Kaemon is an excellent unit to use when you have a screen in place (death reavers, samurai, or even the rest of you melee army) to tie down your enemies. That way, he gets a bunch of free shots into the crowd. If they get too close and attack with melee, there is a decent chance that a low attack unit will be counterstruck. At the same time, Kaemon is good as diffusing rats with his special attack.

That's the main thing. He's got multiple attacks that are special, and counterstrike. That four life isn't a worry if you play him well.

[tubafication]

I like Kaemon, I think he's similar to Charos. Good, yet does not seem to do as well as he should. Charos always seems to die in games I play and Kaemon seems to do similar things. I guess the best thing about them is basically no squads can attack them. So, my point being Charos and Kaemon are good yet don't perform well and are overrated.

[Sarpedon]

tubafication wrote:

"Charos always seems to die in games I play and Kaemon seems to do similar things."

Thank you for that. I couldn't stop to breathe. Simply aw(a)esome.:rofl:

[ElvenEnvy]

I know that the Hive isn't talked up very much, but I still think its overrated.

If the Hive had infinite clear sight for its Hind Mind ability like Kato Katsuro with his Command ability it would be a well worth its points. Really it makes no sense that it doesn't since its an stationary unit.

[killercactus]

The Hive isn't good yet, but it will be. I think the dividers are really going to help it. I think that 12 hex limit will be necessary one day.

I think Raelin is the most overrated unit, but I can't back that up with facts yet. It's just a gut feel. For now though, I'm gonna stick with Zelrig being most overrated.

[Jexik]

I think Raelin is the most overrated unit, but I can't back that up with facts yet.

You might be right, but you also haven't seen how many shields spider_poison's Raelin rolls.

I think Raelin's the best unit in the game. I expect her to be the most common unit to make it to day 2.

[killercactus]

I think Raelin is the most overrated unit, but I can't back that up with facts yet.

You might be right, but you also haven't seen how many shields spider_poison's Raelin rolls.

I think Raelin's the best unit in the game. I expect her to be the most common unit to make it to day 2.

I agree that she will be the most common unit on day 2, because she's the most versatile. However, I think she's only really considered as good as she is because of how people ( including me) approach her. She is always attacked first, and I don't think that's always the right play. However, I'm too much of a coward to test out my theories.

Consider this - on 4 out of 9 defense rolls, Raelin's aura does absolutely nothing. That's almost half. If you shoot at a figure under her aura, she basically flips a coin to decide if she's gonna help or not. And, that doesn't factor in the rolls where the unit didn't need the help, or the help didn't matter. That's why she's so good with Q9 (and all heroes really) - the "Raelin's help didn't matter" turns are minimized. With squad figures though, if you factor in those turns, there is probably a better chance that Raelin isn't helping at all than the chance that she is.

Maybe there should be an A++ ranking for spider's Raelin.

[cartographer of valhalla]

I think syvarris is a very over rated unit. Although if you use him right you can issue some pretty good damage, but I have went up against him countless times and I kill him rather easily.

[dok]

I think Raelin's the best unit in the game. I expect her to be the most common unit to make it to day 2.
Are you counting the armies where Raelin would be added to form the day 2 army, or just the armies where Raelin was there from the start?

[killercactus]

Alright - my day has been a bit slow, so I've had a bit of time to number crunch.

DISCLAIMER: I'm a CPA, not a mathematician. These numbers could very well be wrong. If someone that's sweet at probability checks them and they're wrong - I told you so.

I decided to try and see what happens when a figure with 3 attack dice attacks a squad figure with base 3 defense (both average, I think) that is within Raelin's aura, or not.

Non-Aura Defense - If the figure is NOT within the Aura, they should block:

0 skulls = 100% of the time
1 skull = 70.37% of the time
2 skulls = 25.93% of the time
3 skulls = 3.7% of the time

Aura Defense - If the figure IS within the Aura, they should block:

0 skulls = 100% of the time
1 skull = 86.83% of the time
2 skulls = 53.91% of the time
3 skulls = 20.99% of the time

Help % - That means, Raelin is helping them against:

0 skulls = 0% of the time
1 skull = 16.46% of the time
2 skulls = 27.98% of the time
3 skulls = 17.29% of the time

Attack % - The attacking figure will roll:

0 skulls = 12.5% of the time
1 skull = 37.5% of the time
2 skulls = 37.5% of the time
3 skulls = 12.5% of the time

So, by multiplying the Help% by it's corresponding Attack % and adding the totals, that would provide a weighted average of how often Raelin helps a 3 defense figure against a 3 attack figure.

Weighted Average Help %

0 skulls = 12.5% of the time x 0% = 0%
1 skull = 37.5% of the time x 16.46% = 6.17%
2 skulls = 37.5% of the time x 27.98% = 10.49%
3 skulls = 12.5% of the time x 17.29% = 2.16%

Total = 18.82%....?!?!!!!

Really? These numbers are telling me that, on average, Raelin only helps a squad figure with 3 defense survive 1 out of 5 attacks. Less than 20%.... Really? And, why are we attacking her first again?

Now, I know that on squad figures with 2 defense or less, the numbers will be better (not much better - its about 22% for 2 defense, and 25% below that). I also know that the numbers on heroes will be better, because every shield counts (unless more shields are rolled than skulls). Still though - less than 20%. I thought the numbers would be pretty bad for squad figures, but not this bad. With these numbers, it seems like for any squad without Stealth Dodge, Shields of Valor or Counterstrike, Raelin just isn't worth it.... Really?

Well, if she's not good with squads (or Deathwalkers - she would actually be the worst with them, since her Help % will go down as base defense goes up), who is she good with? I guess it would be multi-life heroes with range, and the lower the base defense, the more she helps. That makes the Elves look wonderful for Raelin. Kaemon Awa is also a great partner, as is Sonlen. Of course, the Major's 8 range makes them prime targets, because it's easy for them to stay close to her. Hmmm... I feel an article coming on.

Thoughts here?

[Einar's_Strategist]

Somethings you have to take into account when trying to figure this out:
1. it is very situational
2. new units outdate/patch-up old ones, affecting how you treat them
3. How your opponent plays
4. Current strategies being played often.

So basicaly 2-4 just restate 1 different/more specific ways:p, but it makes you think. What if one day the make like say a marro scout unit, that extend the reach of the marro hive's affect. How would this affect you choice for the most overrated? Who do you play often? As has been stated before, the reason it is so hard to get a unominous agreance is heroscape is (currently) so balanced. And to expand on that, the reason this thread even happened (most likely) is people had some experiances making them not like a certain beloved unit or other. But that's just a thought.:p

[padlock]

Alright - my day has been a bit slow, so I've had a bit of time to number crunch.

DISCLAIMER: I'm a CPA, not a mathematician. These numbers could very well be wrong. If someone that's sweet at probability checks them and they're wrong - I told you so.

I decided to try and see what happens when a figure with 3 attack dice attacks a squad figure with base 3 defense (both average, I think) that is within Raelin's aura, or not.

Non-Aura Defense - If the figure is NOT within the Aura, they should block:

0 skulls = 100% of the time
1 skull = 70.37% of the time
2 skulls = 25.93% of the time
3 skulls = 3.7% of the time

Aura Defense - If the figure IS within the Aura, they should block:

0 skulls = 100% of the time
1 skull = 86.83% of the time
2 skulls = 53.91% of the time
3 skulls = 20.99% of the time

Help % - That means, Raelin is helping them against:

0 skulls = 0% of the time
1 skull = 16.46% of the time
2 skulls = 27.98% of the time
3 skulls = 17.29% of the time

Attack % - The attacking figure will roll:

0 skulls = 12.5% of the time
1 skull = 37.5% of the time
2 skulls = 37.5% of the time
3 skulls = 12.5% of the time

So, by multiplying the Help% by it's corresponding Attack % and adding the totals, that would provide a weighted average of how often Raelin helps a 3 defense figure against a 3 attack figure.

Weighted Average Help %

0 skulls = 12.5% of the time x 0% = 0%
1 skull = 37.5% of the time x 16.46% = 6.17%
2 skulls = 37.5% of the time x 27.98% = 10.49%
3 skulls = 12.5% of the time x 17.29% = 2.16%

Total = 18.82%....?!?!!!!

Really? These numbers are telling me that, on average, Raelin only helps a squad figure with 3 defense survive 1 out of 5 attacks. 20%.... that's worse than Acolarh. Whoa - let me repeat that. THAT'S WORSE THAN ACOLARH!!!

Now, I know that on squad figures with 2 defense or less, the numbers will be better. I also know that the numbers on heroes will be better, because every shield counts (unless more shields are rolled than skulls). Still though - 20%. This can't be right..... or can it? I thought the numbers would be pretty bad for squad figures, but not this bad. With these numbers, it seems like for any squad without Stealth Dodge, Shields of Valor or Counterstrike, Raelin just isn't worth it.... Really?

Well, if she's not good with squads (or Deathwalkers - she would actually be the worst with them, since her Help % will go down as base defense goes up), who is she good with? I guess it would be multi-life heroes with range, and the lower the base defense, the more she helps. That makes the Elves look wonderful for Raelin. Kaemon Awa is also a great partner, as is Sonlen. Of course, the Major's 8 range makes them prime targets, because it's easy for them to stay close to her. Hmmm... I feel an article coming on.

Thoughts here?

Looking at Sisyphus's probability tables, you can see that an attack of 3 has a .509 chance of landing a hit on a unit with a defense of 3, and a .321 chance against a unit with a defense of 5 (+2 due to Raelin's aura).

Put another way, a unit with a defense of 3 has a .491 (1 - .509) chance of surviving an attack of 3 without Raelin, and a .679 chance of surviving with Raelin's help.

That means that Raelin helps the survivability by 38% (.679/.491 ).

[Jexik]

killercactus, you got me going for a second, but you're not weighting Acolarh's saves. I saw from the book of Acolarh that he saves a figure 22.48% of the time, so you should multiply that by the chance that the figure would die.

Given your example, a figure with 3 defense:
Defending against 1 skull: 29.63%*(.2248)~ 6.66% chance of an Acolarh save.
2 skulls: 74.07%(.2248)~ 16.65% chance of an Acolarh save
3 skulls: 96.3%(.2248)~ 21.6% chance of an Acolarh save

So, Raelin helps quite a bit more against weak attacks.

[dok]

Alright - my day has been a bit slow, so I've had a bit of time to number crunch.

DISCLAIMER: I'm a CPA, not a mathematician. These numbers could very well be wrong. If someone that's sweet at probability checks them and they're wrong - I told you so.

I decided to try and see what happens when a figure with 3 attack dice attacks a squad figure with base 3 defense (both average, I think) that is within Raelin's aura, or not.

Non-Aura Defense - If the figure is NOT within the Aura, they should block:

0 skulls = 100% of the time
1 skull = 70.37% of the time
2 skulls = 25.93% of the time
3 skulls = 3.7% of the time

Aura Defense - If the figure IS within the Aura, they should block:

0 skulls = 100% of the time
1 skull = 86.83% of the time
2 skulls = 53.91% of the time
3 skulls = 20.99% of the time

Help % - That means, Raelin is helping them against:

0 skulls = 0% of the time
1 skull = 16.46% of the time
2 skulls = 27.98% of the time
3 skulls = 17.29% of the time

Attack % - The attacking figure will roll:

0 skulls = 12.5% of the time
1 skull = 37.5% of the time
2 skulls = 37.5% of the time
3 skulls = 12.5% of the time

So, by multiplying the Help% by it's corresponding Attack % and adding the totals, that would provide a weighted average of how often Raelin helps a 3 defense figure against a 3 attack figure.

Weighted Average Help %

0 skulls = 12.5% of the time x 0% = 0%
1 skull = 37.5% of the time x 16.46% = 6.17%
2 skulls = 37.5% of the time x 27.98% = 10.49%
3 skulls = 12.5% of the time x 17.29% = 2.16%

Total = 18.82%....?!?!!!!

Really? These numbers are telling me that, on average, Raelin only helps a squad figure with 3 defense survive 1 out of 5 attacks. 20%.... that's worse than Acolarh. Whoa - let me repeat that. THAT'S WORSE THAN ACOLARH!!!

Now, I know that on squad figures with 2 defense or less, the numbers will be better. I also know that the numbers on heroes will be better, because every shield counts (unless more shields are rolled than skulls). Still though - 20%. This can't be right..... or can it? I thought the numbers would be pretty bad for squad figures, but not this bad. With these numbers, it seems like for any squad without Stealth Dodge, Shields of Valor or Counterstrike, Raelin just isn't worth it.... Really?

Well, if she's not good with squads (or Deathwalkers - she would actually be the worst with them, since her Help % will go down as base defense goes up), who is she good with? I guess it would be multi-life heroes with range, and the lower the base defense, the more she helps. That makes the Elves look wonderful for Raelin. Kaemon Awa is also a great partner, as is Sonlen. Of course, the Major's 8 range makes them prime targets, because it's easy for them to stay close to her. Hmmm... I feel an article coming on.

Thoughts here?

Looking at Sisyphus's probability tables, you can see that an attack of 3 has a .509 chance of landing a hit on a unit with a defense of 3, and a .321 chance against a unit with a defense of 5 (+2 due to Raelin's aura).

Put another way, a unit with a defense of 3 has a .491 (1 - .509) chance of surviving an attack of 3 without Raelin, and a .679 chance of surviving with Raelin's help.

That means that Raelin helps the survivability by 38% (.679/.491 ).

Note also that .679 - .491 = 18.8%, so you could have saved yourself a lot of time and just subtracted one entry in the probability tables from the other... :lol:

As Jexik pointed out, it is in no way worse than Acolarh. Acolarh only helps when you would have taken wounds.

[Simpsons Scaper]

Plus, Acolarh only works on Elves, Raelin works on everyone.

[Killometer]

I guess it would be multi-life heroes with range, and the lower the base defense, the more she helps. That makes the Elves look wonderful for Raelin. Kaemon Awa is also a great partner, as is Sonlen. Of course, the Major's 8 range makes them prime targets, because it's easy for them to stay close to her. Hmmm... I feel an article coming on.

Thoughts here?

You pretty much summed it up. I like keeping her near Syvarris. Great range+mediocre health+Raelin I=Not too shabby. Try to stay out of your opponants range, but if they get too close you have a little defensive boost. Added onto the height advantage you hopefully have and presto! Plus, if they're busy attacking Raelin, they're NOT attacking your offensive figures (I know, been said plenty before, but those are my thoughts :p) I figure DED would be another good Raelin candidate (if I owned him).

[Sarpedon]

ROTV Raelin definitely deserves her A+ ranking. She (greatly) boosts the defense of all your units and is stellar when used with the Krav Maga Agents and/or the Sentinels of Jandar. She is almost a living +2 Defense glyph that you start off with and can (almost) never lose to your opponent. She's also tough to destroy, because she's usually just behind the front lines where she can't easily be reached, and on a high perch which increases her defense to 4. Add to this that she has 5 life, costs only 80 points and very often requires just a single order marker investment per game (because she has a move of six and she flies). Certainly the first choice for cost-effective defense enhancement!

[killercactus]

Looking at Sisyphus's probability tables, you can see that an attack of 3 has a .509 chance of landing a hit on a unit with a defense of 3, and a .321 chance against a unit with a defense of 5 (+2 due to Raelin's aura).

Put another way, a unit with a defense of 3 has a .491 (1 - .509) chance of surviving an attack of 3 without Raelin, and a .679 chance of surviving with Raelin's help.

That means that Raelin helps the survivability by 38% (.679/.491 ).

You're right that the survivability increases by 38%, but it still only helps 18.8% of the time, or roughly 1 in 5 defense rolls.

killercactus, you got me going for a second, but you're not weighting Acolarh's saves. I saw from the book of Acolarh that he saves a figure 22.48% of the time, so you should multiply that by the chance that the figure would die.



You're right - I didn't weight Acolarh's saves. Good catch. However, even if she's not worse than Acolarh, I think she still doesn't help as much as we think.


Note also that .679 - .491 = 18.8%, so you could have saved yourself a lot of time and just subtracted one entry in the probability tables from the other... :lol:

As Jexik pointed out, it is in no way worse than Acolarh. Acolarh only helps when you would have taken wounds.

I realized later I could've looked at the tables, but I was really bored anyway. Also, remember that Acolarh only helps when you would've taken wounds as well, but Jexik is right that I didn't weight them.

ROTV Raelin definitely deserves her A+ ranking. She (greatly) boosts the defense of all your units and is stellar when used with the Krav Maga Agents and/or the Sentinels of Jandar. She is almost a living +2 Defense glyph that you start off with and can (almost) never lose to your opponent. She's also tough to destroy, because she's usually just behind the front lines where she can't easily be reached, and on a high perch which increases her defense to 4. Add to this that she has 5 life, costs only 80 points and very often requires just a single order marker investment per game (because she has a move of six and she flies). Certainly the first choice for cost-effective defense enhancement!

I disagree, when we're talking about squad figures. From what we see here, she doesn't greatly increase their defense at all. She increases it one out of 5 rolls. Even the Krav - sure, she will add a shield almost half the time, but she's only really helping if the Krav would've whiffed on its own. If not, she hasn't done anything. And, from the stats above, we can see that a Krav (with no help) will roll one shield 70% of the time. With her, they'll roll a shield ~87% of the time, so she's only helping on 17% of the rolls.

What I'm getting at here is, with squad figures (especially common), there's probably something better I can do with 80 points than draft Raelin, especially if I have the hexes available to take another common squad. With her helping on only 1 out of 5 rolls, it seems best to just ignore her against squads when you're attacking. If, we start attacking squad figures instead of her first, she might not seem quite as goddess-like. I mean... when you think about it this way, doesn't this really put a dent in Raelin's usefulness?

From now on, when I play Raelin, I'm going to use 2 different colored dice to represent her aura. That'll make it apparent how much she is actually helping.

[padlock]

Looking at Sisyphus's probability tables, you can see that an attack of 3 has a .509 chance of landing a hit on a unit with a defense of 3, and a .321 chance against a unit with a defense of 5 (+2 due to Raelin's aura).

Put another way, a unit with a defense of 3 has a .491 (1 - .509) chance of surviving an attack of 3 without Raelin, and a .679 chance of surviving with Raelin's help.

That means that Raelin helps the survivability by 38% (.679/.491 ).

You're right that the survivability increases by 38%, but it still only helps 18.8% of the time, or roughly 1 in 5 defense rolls.

killercactus, you got me going for a second, but you're not weighting Acolarh's saves. I saw from the book of Acolarh that he saves a figure 22.48% of the time, so you should multiply that by the chance that the figure would die.



You're right - I didn't weight Acolarh's saves. Good catch. However, even if she's not worse than Acolarh, I think she still doesn't help as much as we think.


Note also that .679 - .491 = 18.8%, so you could have saved yourself a lot of time and just subtracted one entry in the probability tables from the other... :lol:

As Jexik pointed out, it is in no way worse than Acolarh. Acolarh only helps when you would have taken wounds.

I realized later I could've looked at the tables, but I was really bored anyway. Also, remember that Acolarh only helps when you would've taken wounds as well, but Jexik is right that I didn't weight them.

ROTV Raelin definitely deserves her A+ ranking. She (greatly) boosts the defense of all your units and is stellar when used with the Krav Maga Agents and/or the Sentinels of Jandar. She is almost a living +2 Defense glyph that you start off with and can (almost) never lose to your opponent. She's also tough to destroy, because she's usually just behind the front lines where she can't easily be reached, and on a high perch which increases her defense to 4. Add to this that she has 5 life, costs only 80 points and very often requires just a single order marker investment per game (because she has a move of six and she flies). Certainly the first choice for cost-effective defense enhancement!

I disagree, when we're talking about squad figures. From what we see here, she doesn't greatly increase their defense at all. She increases it one out of 5 rolls. Even the Krav - sure, she will add a shield almost half the time, but she's only really helping if the Krav would've whiffed on its own. If not, she hasn't done anything. And, from the stats above, we can see that a Krav (with no help) will roll one shield 70% of the time. With her, they'll roll a shield ~87% of the time, so she's only helping on 17% of the rolls.

What I'm getting at here is, with squad figures (especially common), there's probably something better I can do with 80 points than draft Raelin, especially if I have the hexes available to take another common squad. With her helping on only 1 out of 5 rolls, it seems best to just ignore her against squads when you're attacking. If, we start attacking squad figures instead of her first, she might not seem quite as goddess-like. I mean... when you think about it this way, doesn't this really put a dent in Raelin's usefulness?

From now on, when I play Raelin, I'm going to use 2 different colored dice to represent her aura. That'll make it apparent how much she is actually helping.

Think about what you're saying. Every 5 attacks, one of your squadies which would have died gets to stay alive. If you're facing an opponent with multiple attacks (say a squad of 4), then you're facing 12 attacks per round, and Raelin will save 2.4 figures per round. That's huge! What more do you want for 80 points? Also, as you mentioned, she helps even more with multi-life heroes.

If anything, this analysis confirms just how valuable she is.

[Sarpedon]

Remember, also, killercactus, that (ROTV) Raelin is a very good end-game unit. If the opponent chooses not to attack her, it will take him much longer to eliminate your units and then, on top of that, she can be used as a single flying attack unit if the game comes down to the wire. Since she flies, she may even get to attack from height which would increase her attack to 4.

As for drafting a ranged squad instead of Raelin, sure, sometimes it might be better (depending on your army build), but the opposite could also be true. If you have a squad-heavy army, lots of points left and few spaces, Raelin is an excellent choice. She even helps ensure that your units are protected in the start zone itself. That's huge against an army that has the Airborne Elite or Zelgrig, for example.

At the start, you're paying 80 points (and only ONE activation marker, if that) to give all your units +2 defense. At the end of a close game, if she survives, you'll have a very decent fast-moving flying unit that can hunt down any ranged survivors. If she's not a must-have, she's the next thing to it.

[killercactus]

Think about what you're saying. Every 5 attacks, one of your squadies which would have died gets to stay alive. If you're facing an opponent with multiple attacks (say a squad of 4), then you're facing 12 attacks per round, and Raelin will save 2.4 figures per round. That's huge! What more do you want for 80 points? Also, as you mentioned, she helps even more with multi-life heroes.

If anything, this analysis confirms just how valuable she is.

A couple things:

First of all, I don't think I disagree that she isn't valuable, even with squads. I just don't think she's as valuable as we think she is, and I think her opponents might not be dealing with her the right way (when she's protecting squads).

Secondly, that analysis above is assuming an attack of 3. I've said this before in other threads (I think even in this thread) - even 3 attacks of 3 in one Order Marker is quite an achievement. 4 attacks of 3 is amazing.

But yes, in that case, Raelin will save 2.4 figures per round. Your opponent will still kill 3.8. If Raelin has high ground or a tree (which she usually does thanks to Flying), your opponent would need 9 of those 12 attacks on average to kill her (.58 wounds per attack x 9 = 5.22 wounds). That means there are 3 attacks left, in which 1.5 squad figures will die.

So, in a round with 12 attacks of 3 against Raelin + squad figures with 3 base defense, the attacker can choose to kill 4 squad figures or Raelin + 1.5 squad figures (assuming only high ground for Raelin). When you consider that the squad figures are the ones attacking back, I think I'd rather kill the squads.

And remember, that is on an extraordinary attacking round. Let's look at a more average attacking round - say 6 attacks of 3 and 4 attacks of 2. On average, if you poured all those attacks into high-ground Raelin, she would either barely die, or still be alive (.58 x 6 = 3.48 wounds = .296 x 4 = 1.184 wounds = 4.664 wounds). If you attack the squads, you would kill 2.75 figures on average (6 attacks x .321 = 1.926 dead + 4 attacks x .181 = .724 dead = 2.75). Again, considering the squads are attacking back, I think I might take the dead squads.

It's also interesting - if Raelin has high ground on Q9, it will take an entire round of Queglix Gunning to kill her. That equates to an entire free round of your opponent attacking Q9, and maneuvering his figures wherever he wants to do it.

I'm really thinking that, against Raelin + squads, attack the squads. Against Raelin + heroes, attack Raelin. I'm going to try this out when I get a chance to play some games (and make sure I use the different colored dice to see what kind of impact she really has).

EDIT: Sarpedon, I wouldn't call Raelin a "very good" cleanup unit, but she isn't bad. Against a good cleanup unit like Kaemon Awa or Sonlen, she'll usually get toasted. Even the Marro Warriors could take care of her on most occasions (I would think), and Isamu can be really tough on her. Plus, she doesn't give your whole army +2 defense - only those within 4 spaces. If you build your army correctly, sure, it can be your whole army. But, with squads, it gets tough to keep them all by her. However, with long-range heroes and some long-ranged squads (especially the more expensive ones), she is still amazing.

Also, I agree with you about the hex limitation. I think I said it somewhere above (and if I didn't, I meant to), she still makes a lot of sense when you're short on starting hexes.

I guess all I'm really saying here is that, there exists this mentality amongst scapers to always kill Raelin first. Against [most] squads, I don't think that's the best play anymore. And, that goes doubly true if your attacking squad out-ranges the Raelin-protected squad, since you can force them to move away from her.

If I get some time, I'll turn all of this into an article. Maybe on my lunch today....

[Aldin]

killercactus is very eloquently expressing some of the thoughts I'd been having lately. When I was AARing the OVAH cup in my mind, I realized I had lost in the penultimate round primarily because I got focused on taking out Raelin rather than the Heavy Gruts she was boosting. No one worries about the defense of the Deathwalkers - why should five or six defensive dice be scary?

~Aldin, who really likes the idea of different colored dice for Raelin to get a experiential feel for her usefulness

[padlock]

It sounds like we're mixing up two independent questions.

1. Is Raelin overrated?
2. Is it sometimes better to ignore her and attack figures in her aura?

My belief is that the answer to the first question is no, she isn't.

As to the second, I agree with you completely. There are certainly situations in which it it better to ignore Raelin and attack units in her Aura.

That, however, in no way diminishes her worth.

[dok]

I'm really thinking that, against Raelin + squads, attack the squads. Against Raelin + heroes, attack Raelin.
Let's be precise; we're not talking about "Raelin + squads". We're talking about "Raelin + 1-life figures with 3 or more defense, attacked by an attack of 3 or less". We agree, I think, that lower defense, higher attack, or multiple life all kick us into territory where Raelin should be first priority, if she can be hit.

Still, you may be right about the situation where you should consider targeting the squad figures first. That said, just because there may be situations where the squad should be attacked first, doesn't mean Raelin isn't valuable in those situations. Despite the obvious fact that she's still helping, there's lots of less quantifiable benefits to a lower death rate, like being able to more easily keep your front lines well-stocked with figures.

I'm not arguing you're wrong about never targeting squaddies first; just that Raelin might still be useful in these situations.

[killercactus]

It sounds like we're mixing up two independent questions.

1. Is Raelin overrated?
2. Is it sometimes better to ignore her and attack figures in her aura?

My belief is that the answer to the first question is no, she isn't.

As to the second, I agree with you completely. There are certainly situations in which it it better to ignore Raelin and attack units in her Aura.

That, however, in no way diminishes her worth.

I think it does, albeit maybe not as much as I originally thought.

She seems amazing when the attacker focuses on killing her, because Raelin's team is getting all of these free attacks back. But, if the attacker changes his/her philosophy, I think it will be a slightly (not hugely) different story.

I started noticing this when I played Nilfheim at GenCon. When I was using Ice Shard Breath, I was forced to attack squad figures and couldn't focus solely on Raelin, even though I wanted to. I remember being impressed at how well Nilfheim did against the Raelin/Stingers/Rats that scaper_dude played. I don't think I would've been as impressed if I wasn't killing Stingers during that match, and was focusing on Raelin. The whole thing never really hit me though until I really started thinking about it.

I really gotta play some games this weekend with and against Raelin.

EDIT: dok, even on 1-life figures with less than 3 defense, her numbers don't get much better. With more than 3 defense, they go down. And, as the attackers attack dice go up, I think they should definitely be attacking the 1-life figures. Which, basically makes it "always attack the 1-life figure rather than Raelin, if possible, unless there is a special circumstance (Stealth Dodge, Counterstrike, etc)", right?

[Jexik]

The thing about Raelin is that very few units really make you even consider these kind of thoughts. "Should I go for Raelin or try to take out these squads before his reinforcements arrive?" is one thing. "I'll stick to my game plan- stay at max range, and kill all of his guys," is another.

The only other unit that is likely to reduce the effectiveness of the other guy's turns by 20% is the Deathreavers, but they cost more order markers and starting zone spaces. They do have the added benefit of holding glyphs.

[killercactus]

Does Raelin reduce the effectiveness of the opponents' turns? Yes. However, if her opponet attacks her, her armies turns' effectiveness isn't reduced at all. I just really think players need to keep that in mind when they're attacking.

[Sarpedon]

Killercactus, as I explained before, Raelin continues to perform (usually without need of more than one order marker) as long as she's alive or until she is the only unit left. Ignoring Raelin is the correct tactic in some situations (I've actually given an example of such a situation in another thread), but not when a swarm of squads is advancing and one or two fallen units can easily be replaced by a dozen in reserve.

Consider her value: a unit with a defense of 3 becomes a 5-defense unit. That's a 66% improvement! Nevermind how (more) frequently it will save its skin. Think of it in those terms (from the statistical explanation you gave I see that you have) and realize what a vast improvement it is. Thus, if you had her in an otherwise all-Stinger army and managed to strategically locate Raelin, your entire army's defense would be improved by 66% for most or almost the entire game! It's as if each squad were composed of 3 Stingers each with a defense of 5!

[killercactus]

Consider her value: a unit with a defense of 3 becomes a 5-defense unit. That's a 66% improvement! Nevermind how (more) frequently it will save its skin. Think of it in those terms (from the statistical explanation you gave I see that you have) and realize what a vast improvement it is. Thus, if you had her in an otherwise all-Stinger army and managed to strategically locate Raelin, your entire army's defense would be improved by 66% for most or almost the entire game! It's as if each squad were composed of 3 Stingers each with a defense of 5!

I used to believe that it was a really vast improvement, but I'm not so sure anymore. Raelin only helps squad figures in two ways:

1) Improving their defense. For a 3 defense squad figure, we can see that she helps about 20% of the rolls. IMO you have to think of it this way - it's the only time Raelin is doing anything. The other 80% of the time, those 2 extra defense dice don't mean squat.

2) Drawing fire away from them. When a squad figure is not fired upon, she helps 100% of the rolls (until she's dead).

I'd rather make my opponent take that 20% chance, and try to kill some of his offense. Even if there is a squad figure there to replace it - either way, the same number of attacks are coming at you. But, by attacking the squad figure, you can stay further away and try to dictate the positioning.

With squad figures, it seems like the Nakita Agents could actually be better protectors than Raelin (if you're facing normal attacks). Raelin will save a Stinger from death ~20% of the time. The Nakita Agents will save the Stinger more than 40% of the time, because once you hit Smoke Powder, it lasts for the rest of the turn.

[dok]

With squad figures, it seems like the Nakita Agents could actually be better protectors than Raelin (if you're facing normal attacks). Raelin will save a Stinger from death ~20% of the time. The Nakita Agents will save the Stinger more than 40% of the time, because once you hit Smoke Powder, it lasts for the rest of the turn.
You correctly observe how Raelin's help only matters in a certain narrow case, but you're ignoring that same thing for other figures.

The same criticism of the Nakitas applies as applies to Acolarh and Raelin. That 40% only matters if more skulls would have been rolled than shields. Now, the 40% becomes 100% for subsequent attacks in the turn, which matters a lot if the attacker doesn't have alternative targets. But again, even that 100% only matters if more skulls would have been rolled than shields.

Nakitas are very good in a no-special environment, though.

[Sir Dendrik]

Microcorp Agents are hella overrated.

I never saw the obsession.

[Ullar/utgar own]

Aldin:

I'll vote Drake for most overrated. He's just too vulnerable to ranged specials.

~Aldin, who may simply be too inexperienced to judge wellHow is he vulnerable to ranged units? With his Thorian Speed
Thorian Speed
Opponents' figures must be adjacent to Sgt. Drake Alexander to attack him with a normal attack.
Ranged units can't attack him unless it is a special attack.

i do believe that aldin said ranged specials not normal attacks.

[SymphonyScaper]

Microcorp Agents are hella overrated.

I never saw the obsession.

Hmm...I wouldn't say so. I don't play Vydar units a whole lot, and have never tried the Microcorp Agents myself, but they can do some nasty things!

I remember one 500 point game where the MA stomped all over me. I only killed Marcu the entire game.:shock:

[nyys]

Microcorp Agents are hella overrated.

I never saw the obsession.


Get them on height... hella good.

[ParaGoomba Slayer]

Microcorp Agents are hella overrated.

I never saw the obsession.


Get them on height... hella good.

That Stealth Armor gets absolutely ridiculous sometimes.

[Bonecrusher]

I would have to say Zelrig. He might get a first turn firebomb, but once you have played him a couple of times a skilled player will deal with him by spreading out commons, engaging him and leaving holes in their start zone.

[killercactus]

With squad figures, it seems like the Nakita Agents could actually be better protectors than Raelin (if you're facing normal attacks). Raelin will save a Stinger from death ~20% of the time. The Nakita Agents will save the Stinger more than 40% of the time, because once you hit Smoke Powder, it lasts for the rest of the turn.
You correctly observe how Raelin's help only matters in a certain narrow case, but you're ignoring that same thing for other figures.

The same criticism of the Nakitas applies as applies to Acolarh and Raelin. That 40% only matters if more skulls would have been rolled than shields. Now, the 40% becomes 100% for subsequent attacks in the turn, which matters a lot if the attacker doesn't have alternative targets. But again, even that 100% only matters if more skulls would have been rolled than shields.

Nakitas are very good in a no-special environment, though.

I thought about that, but then I also thought that the Nakitas are preventing the attack altogether.... I guess you're right though.

I played Raelin last night with the Elves - the army which I think Raelin should be of the most help to defensively. She only helped on 2 out of 12 rolls. I guess it just could've been my dice though - they were bad.

[killercactus]

Sorry for the double-post, but this is different than my last one and relevant here.

I played the 500 pt Mohican / Viper army last night against Stingers x5, Raelin and Kaemon. I led out with the Mohicans, ignoring Raelin altogether. My opponent rolled different colored dice to represent her aura. She didn't help the Stingers at all. Not one time. My attacks of 2-3 just blew right through her aura. She was the last figure on the battlefield, and I still had 2 of my 9 Mohicans left.

Now, this game might just be an abbaration (sp?) and Craig's dice did seem pretty bad. Still though - I'm resolved to just ignore Raelin when she's protecting most squad figures.

[Jexik]

Tul-Bak-Ra is the most overrated unit.

Discuss. ;)

[kpotassiumk19]

I think Raelin RotV is overated and Raelin Sotm is underated. How much times does that 2 defense help over 1 extra defense? 4 defense a the sweet spot and 5 isn't much better than 4. Now you might be saying, "Well, SotM costs 40 points more than RotV." For 40 points, you get Whirlwind Assualt, an additional life, and more aura range.

I would say the dividing point between the 2 Raelins is 2 and 3 defense. 2 or lower, RotV will help greatly with the low defense, but with higher defense figures, they can defend themselves easily and will not need plus 2 defense, but plus 1 helps and raelin SotM may be able to make up most if not all of her points.

[killercactus]

I think Raelin RotV is overated and Raelin Sotm is underated. How much times does that 2 defense help over 1 extra defense? 4 defense a the sweet spot and 5 isn't much better than 4. Now you might be saying, "Well, SotM costs 40 points more than RotV." For 40 points, you get Whirlwind Assualt, an additional life, and more aura range.



Both Raelin's have 5 life.

[Jebuh214]

i believe that Deathwalker 9000 is highly overrated, even with 9 defense he can easily be taken down with the Omincron Snipers, Zetacron, or Minion of Utgar (because of their Deadly Shot, and Deadly Strike Abilities). I once took down 2 Deathwalker 9000s with one Omincron Sniper.
And with only 1 life he just falls all too quick.

[Einar Gen.]

believe that Deathwalker 9000 is highly overrated, even with 9 defense he can easily be taken down with the Omincron Snipers, Zetacron, or Minion of Utgar (because of their Deadly Shot, and Deadly Strike Abilities). I once took down 2 Deathwalker 9000s with one Omincron Sniper.
And with only 1 life he just falls all too quick.
Uuuhh... Since when is he overrated? And the difference between the two Raelins is this: RotV version provides more support, while Sotm version is more combat oriented. Besides that, on average, 2 extra dice will average 1 extra shield most of the time over a smaller area, and 1 extra die will give you 1 extra shield SOME of the time over a larger area. That's why I think the Rotv version is better...
The most overrated unit is Q9.:)

[Killometer]

i believe that Deathwalker 9000 is highly overrated, even with 9 defense he can easily be taken down with the Omincron Snipers, Zetacron, or Minion of Utgar (because of their Deadly Shot, and Deadly Strike Abilities). I once took down 2 Deathwalker 9000s with one Omincron Sniper.
And with only 1 life he just falls all too quick.

It looks like you may have "over-rated" confused with "over-costed". To get a good idea of what figures are generally considered powerful on these forums I'd recommend that you check out spider_poison's Heroscape Power Rankings (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=6171). If anything there seems to you to have been given too high a grade that's what you want to bring up here.

[Devil's Advocate]

I say Kaemon Awa and Deathreavers are the 2 most Overated.

With 4/4 Kaemon can die quickly and Deathreavers tie up precious start zone spaces thereby forcing you to draft more expensive units

[ParaGoomba Slayer]

4th Mass. I've said this before, and I'll say it again; Attacks of 2 are garbage.

All you need to do is outrange them to draw them out of WtF. Gorillas and Nakitas are good for this because the Gorillas get height quickly.

[Jexik]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, if you're only thinking about using Wait then Fire, you've got some learning to do.

It's all about height advantage. Some figure(s) somewhere on the board is [are] lower than where you can move the 4th Mass this turn.

[Warlord Alpha]

4th Mass. I've said this before, and I'll say it again; Attacks of 2 are garbage.

All you need to do is outrange them to draw them out of WtF. Gorillas and Nakitas are good for this because the Gorillas get height quickly.

You said it perfect. I prefer 10th to them any day. I don't want my army constrained to valiant cards only. Actually, screw them both. Stingers can easily get an attack of 5 for a lot less. I love the stingers more than either of them - they're an awesome bread-and-butter type ranged squad. Totally underrated IMO.

[Sherman Davies]

Stingers can easily get an attack of 5 for a lot less. I love the stingers more than either of them - they're an awesome bread-and-butter type ranged squad. Totally underrated IMO.

Actually, the Stingers show up at tourneys all the time, from what I hear, so they're not underrated at all.

[Toad Rocket]

I see that sonya is an A-. I dunno, maybe seems a bit high because all she is a power up for Cyprien. Stats wise she is a little worse than Iskra, who is C+.
Then again, you never really see her with her hubby and her boost is pretty good for him. I dunno, maybe I am just thinking out loud on this one.

[Jebuh214]

i believe that Deathwalker 9000 is highly overrated, even with 9 defense he can easily be taken down with the Omincron Snipers, Zetacron, or Minion of Utgar (because of their Deadly Shot, and Deadly Strike Abilities). I once took down 2 Deathwalker 9000s with one Omincron Sniper.
And with only 1 life he just falls all too quick.

It looks like you may have "over-rated" confused with "over-costed". To get a good idea of what figures are generally considered powerful on these forums I'd recommend that you check out spider_poison's Heroscape Power Rankings (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=6171). If anything there seems to you to have been given too high a grade that's what you want to bring up here.

I understand where you're coming from, and what im saying is that he is over rated.
Whenever I play heroscape with a group of friends, Deathwalker 9000 is almost always one of the first figures chosen because of his high defense, but with only 1 life, he just falls too easily. Even with 9 defense one shot from Zetacron or the Omnicron Snipers and he just dies. 9000 is just way over-rated, he deserves more along the lines of a C- i would say

[Killometer]

i believe that Deathwalker 9000 is highly overrated, even with 9 defense he can easily be taken down with the Omincron Snipers, Zetacron, or Minion of Utgar (because of their Deadly Shot, and Deadly Strike Abilities). I once took down 2 Deathwalker 9000s with one Omincron Sniper.
And with only 1 life he just falls all too quick.

It looks like you may have "over-rated" confused with "over-costed". To get a good idea of what figures are generally considered powerful on these forums I'd recommend that you check out spider_poison's Heroscape Power Rankings (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=6171). If anything there seems to you to have been given too high a grade that's what you want to bring up here.

I understand where you're coming from, and what im saying is that he is over rated.
Whenever I play heroscape with a group of friends, Deathwalker 9000 is almost always one of the first figures chosen because of his high defense, but with only 1 life, he just falls too easily. Even with 9 defense one shot from Zetacron or the Omnicron Snipers and he just dies. 9000 is just way over-rated, he deserves more along the lines of a C- i would say

First off, I wouldn't say that a figure that is in the C+ catagory is "way over-rated" if it only needs to be dropped to a C-

Secondly, this is how C's are described:
C Category: These units struggle to compete with the higher tiers. While they may have an occasional “break-out” game they do not win consistently enough to be considered reliable. While no victory is guaranteed, these units have a difficult time delivering.

DW9K seems to fit pretty well in the mid-to-high level of that grade. Sure, eventually 9 defence will fail, but sometimes it can take quite a while. Range 7 is great, Explosion Special Attack is always nifty, and the Soulborg Range Enhancement is nice, too (remember that it boosts Blastatrons, too). Really the only thing that's keeping him from being a B is his glass jaw (admittedly, it's a pretty big thing), but when the dice are hot DW9K (and 8K) are brutal.

So while he may be anecdotally over-rated in your circle of players, a grade of C+ seems pretty accurate over-all.

[donjake]

im going to say deathwalker 9000

9 armour makes it seem pretty much invincible but it takes one bad roll to take it down because of only 1 wound
and it lacks firepower so it adds up to a point wasting tank

[Killometer]

im going to say deathwalker 9000

9 armour makes it seem pretty much invincible but it takes one bad roll to take it down because of only 1 wound
and it lacks firepower so it adds up to a point wasting tank

It looks like this post is appropriate again (it's even regarding the same fig :lol:).



It looks like you may have "over-rated" confused with "over-costed". To get a good idea of what figures are generally considered powerful on these forums I'd recommend that you check out spider_poison's Heroscape Power Rankings (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=6171). If anything there seems to you to have been given too high a grade that's what you want to bring up here.

[ParaGoomba Slayer]

I think the only reason why DW9K isn't a D unit is because he's decent when Ornak uses his bonding power to activate him.

As a standalone hero he blows. Zelrig does the same thing 20x better for only 45 more points.

[Sherman Davies]

Welcome to the site, donjake!

It seems like you've learned one of the early lessons we all learn when we start playing this game: Deathwalker 9000 ain't that great. Of course, most of us know that, so DW9000 is not overrated at all. ;)

[Jexik]

I don't think there are many overrated units at this point, except maybe some of the Wave 9 stuff. We usually end up discussing stuff to the point that we eventually arrive at a fairly accurate concensus.

[Cavalier]

I don't think there are many overrated units at this point, except maybe some of the Wave 9 stuff. We usually end up discussing stuff to the point that we eventually arrive at a fairly accurate concensus.
How can you say that, Jexik?? Simply because the community at large has discussed and re-discussed and come up wiht a consensus, how can that possibly compare to the experience of a new guy who plays with the same limited group all of the time??!?!?!?! </sarcasm>

[donjake]

karv magna agents are to because really alot of people can stand the attack and stealth dodge wont help against couter attack or a close combat person

[Killometer]

karv magna agents are to because really alot of people can stand the attack and stealth dodge wont help against couter attack or a close combat person

Except their Range of 7 and Move of 6 are excellent at keeping them out of melee, negating the risk of things like counterstrike or heavy-hitting melee figs.

[Cavalier]

karv magna agents are to because really alot of people can stand the attack and stealth dodge wont help against couter attack or a close combat person
Um, yeah...Don't let you KMA be engaged.

[spiteofthedice]

karv magna agents are to because really alot of people can stand the attack and stealth dodge wont help against couter attack or a close combat person
Um, yeah...Don't let you KMA be engaged.
Which ones, the Krav Maga Agents or the Karv Magna Agents?

Cav's right, though. Never let your Karl Magnet Agents be engaged.

[donjake]

karv magna agents are to because really alot of people can stand the attack and stealth dodge wont help against couter attack or a close combat person
Um, yeah...Don't let you KMA be engaged.
Which ones, the Krav Maga Agents or the Karv Magna Agents?

Cav's right, though. Never let your Karl Magnet Agents be engaged.
the ones in black you get in the first master set

[Major Q23]

4th Massachusetts Line! I know the arguments about Jandar Dispatch and 3 defense all of the time but I still think 10th Regiment of Foot are better, even Stingers are better than 4th Mass I'm my opinion. The 4th Mass are considered by most to be the best range squad. Are the 4th Mass good? Yes. Great and one of the best figures in the game? No. I'm sure I will get attacked because of this post but I'm just trying to get the truth out there. The truth: The 4th Massachusetts Line is the most over rated unit in the game

[Deroche]

4th Massachusetts Line! I know the arguments about Jandar Dispatch and 3 defense all of the time but I still think 10th Regiment of Foot are better, even Stingers are better than 4th Mass I'm my opinion. The 4th Mass are considered by most to be the best range squad. Are the 4th Mass good? Yes. Great and one of the best figures in the game? No. I'm sure I will get attacked because of this post but I'm just trying to get the truth out there. The truth: The 4th Massachusetts Line is the most over rated unit in the game

I'm now ashamed to have you part of our Louisville Tourney scene. You are hereby banished. Maybe the Indianapolis group will have you instead, they are only two hours up the road. :evil:

You want some truth? I can't wait to run the 4th against you and make you eat your words. ;)

[Jexik]

4th Massachusetts Line! I know the arguments about Jandar Dispatch and 3 defense all of the time but I still think 10th Regiment of Foot are better, even Stingers are better than 4th Mass I'm my opinion. The 4th Mass are considered by most to be the best range squad. Are the 4th Mass good? Yes. Great and one of the best figures in the game? No. I'm sure I will get attacked because of this post but I'm just trying to get the truth out there. The truth: The 4th Massachusetts Line is the most over rated unit in the game

I totally agree! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvfcnpJRf0Q)