dok's D&D minis customs

[dok]

My customs using figures other than the D&D Miniatures line are found HERE (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=33792).

:jandar: Jandar: Ymir:http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/ymir_730406_original.jpg
The figure is the Frost Titan from Legendary Evils. The figure can be easily rebased onto a double-hexer, or the base can be trimmed to fit on a double-hexer.

Griffon Cavalry:http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/griffon_cavalry_276186_original.jpg
Sort of a Theracus/Wyvern combo. The "controlling player places" rule solves the hot lava death issue, more or less, without handicapping the power too much.

The figure is the Griffon Cavalry from War of the Dragon Queen. It can be easily rebased onto a DW9k-style base.

:utgar: Utgar: Zombie Hulk: :!: (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1267375&postcount=157) :up: (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1302993&postcount=421) :up: (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1318574&postcount=489) :up: (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1365704&postcount=771) :up: (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1376240&postcount=780) :up: (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1393286&postcount=861) SoV approved - The Book of the Zombie Hulk (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=35963) http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/zombie_hulk_sov_original.jpg
The figure is the Zombie Hulk from Savage Encounters. It fits very well on a narrow double-hexer.

Zettian Marauder:http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/zettian_marauder_184322_original.jpg
The figure is the Blood Golem of Hextor from Unhallowed. The base itself can easily be trimmed to a single-hexer, or the figure can be remounted on a DW9k base.

Obsidian Champion:http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/obsidian_champion_original.jpg
The figure is the Magma Brute.

Mallok:http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/mallok_880779_original.jpg
The figure is the "Drider Fanglord" from the Savage Encounters release. It can be rebased onto a D3 base with a bit of work.

Gargoyle: :!: (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1436946&postcount=1031)/:!: (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1550658&postcount=1629)http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/gargoyle_original.jpg
This is the Gargoyle, available unpainted in the Castle Ravenloft set, or as the Earth Element Gargoyle from the Blood War release.

Dragon Hound:http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/dragon_hound_original.jpg
Rage Drake from the "Desert of Desolation" D&D Miniatures release. It is also available as an unpainted miniature from the Wrath of Ashardalon game. It fits easily on a standard peanut base.


:vydar: Vydar:Major X23:http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/major_x23_original.jpg
The figure is the Iron Golem Juggernaut from Lords of Madness. It can be rebased exceptionally easily onto a narrow double-hexer base, or the existing base can be trimmed to fit on a double-hexed space.

Pugilitron:http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/pugilitron_original.jpg
The figure is the Hammerer from Blood War.


:aquilla: Aquilla: Crag:http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/crag_139023_original.jpg
The figure is the Earth Titan from Against the Giants. The base can be trimmed to fit on a double-hexer, or the figure can be remounted on a wide double-hexer.

Deepwater Warrior: :!: (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1379014&postcount=786) :down: (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1542103&postcount=1470) :down: (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1549948&postcount=1626)http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/deepwater_warrior_original.jpg
The figure is the "Water Archon Shoal Reaver" from the Lords of Madness release.

Reilor:http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/reilor_original.jpg
The figure is the Astral Giant, also from the Lords of Madness release. The figure is on a large base and is practically bonded to that base. The simplest approach is to just cut the edge off of the base with a pair of scissors; the base can easily be trimmed down to the size of a DW9k base or smaller.

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq18/bmaczero/Heroscape/valkrill_smilie.gif Valkrill:Skeletal Cyclops:http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/skeletal_cyclops_489289_original.jpg
The figure is the Skeletal Cyclops from Savage Encounters. It is easily rebased onto a double-hexer.

Nidhog:http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/nidhog_232076_original.jpg

The original figure is the Dracolich from the War of the Dragon Queen release. It is the same sculpt as the unpainted "Gravestorm Dracolich" from the Castle Ravenloft board game. The base can be easily trimmed into a Heroscape double base with wire cutters.

:einar: Minotaur Pit Fighter:http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/minotaur_pit_fighter_original.jpg
The figure is the Savage Minotaur from Savage Encounters. It can be remounted on a classic medium base, or the existing base can be trimmed to fit on a single-hex space.

:ullar: Sir Chorin:http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/sir_chorin_original.jpg
The figure is the Centaur War Hulk from Blood War. It is easily rebased onto a double-hexer.

[Bear1211]

The mini itself is a little over 6" tall and very unbalanced on its large round base. I think it would be better off on a large base. I mounted a pile of pebbles off center on its base to keep it standing up-right while using it for DDM.

[dok]

Wow, 6 inches. So cool. I should really get one of these.

I suppose it would be much easier to counterbalance with a long base, although I suppose a single base could work if you weighted it heavily (lead weights on the base or somesuch). I like the idea of using a single-spaced base if it's possible, but it might not be practical.

[dok]

Two squads. I don't own the figures, so if anyone wants to comment on whether these figures have something approaching the same scale, please do.

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/skeletal_giants_368700_original.jpg

Yes, a huge squad. I think it's fairly comparable to the Fen Hydra.

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/deepwyrm_driders_original.jpg

There's one other Drider, so if one of these is out of scale I could always sub that one in.

[Revloscaper]

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/deepwyrm_driders_original.jpg

There's one other Drider, so if one of these is out of scale I could always sub that one in.

Those drow would look fantastic in any drow army. I also like that they follow the darkness/poison theme of the drow. One thing I might do is switch out the disengage for a web attack. +rep

[Frylock]

Just so you know, the wording for the Trample Special Attack says Ice Shard. I'm sure you just overlooked that in the copy/pasting. :lol:

I like the survivability on the giants, though. I think they could stay alive long enough to justify the points. And the Driders should p'own heroes, with Estivara backing them up. I like them both.

[DeathByUtgar]

nice customs

[Shedim Kabal]

Wait... Can't Driders stealth fly? (http://goblins.keenspot.com/d/20090311.html)

[bmaczero]

Nice customs! I like that Griffon unit - I mean, wow, six inches!? Intimidating :P.

[dok]

I updated the Griffon Cavalry. I switched it from champion to scout (champion really set up some ridiculous potential with bonding) and dropped the cost from 120 to 100. (I'm also putting my somewhat improved Gimp skills on display. ;))

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/griffon_cavalry_460384_original.jpg

Despite removing the bonding potential, this figure still feels like it would be useful in a lot of armies. The ability to carry an ally on the way in, then wreak Wyvern-esqe havoc once at the front, is a pretty nice combo.

[killercactus]

I updated the Griffon Cavalry. I switched it from champion to scout (champion really set up some ridiculous potential with bonding) and dropped the cost from 120 to 100. (I'm also putting by somewhat improved Gimp skills on display. ;))

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/griffon_cavalry_460384_original.jpg

Despite removing the bonding potential, this figure still feels like it would be useful in a lot of armies. The ability to carry an ally on the way in, then wreak Wyvern-esqe havoc once at the front, is a pretty nice combo.

Venoc Warlord - 120
Venoc Vipers x7 - 400
Griffon Cavalry x1 - 500, 24 hexes

I like it. :D

[Hidicul]

All I can say KC is that I don't want to be on the other side of that army, can you say ouch? lol

[aquamaniac27]

I really like the griffin cavalry! Good job!

[dok]

This one's for rogue assassin; he's always talking about what a cool sculpt the Cadaver Collector is. Sportcult actually did a custom of this guy a while ago, which was really cool (http://i437.photobucket.com/albums/qq98/sportcult/custom%20cards/bezelgrum_card.jpg), but I wanted to try to make one that hewed more closely to the D&D figure. It was a challenge.

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/cadaver_collector_original.jpg

I wanted to put warforged resolve or iron tough on there, but obviously there isn't much room on that card. I really struggled with a good way to handle both of the powers I did include. I hate wordy powers and I'm not a fan of using markers other than wound markers, but I felt backed into a corner on this one.

[Aldin]

I'm not getting the theory behind corpse collection, dok. Is it just to enable abilities that activate upon destroying a figure?

~Aldin, joining the corpse

[Shadow Marro]

Ive got to say, Cadaver Collector looks sweet.

[dok]

I'm not getting the theory behind corpse collection, dok. Is it just to enable abilities that activate upon destroying a figure?

~Aldin, joining the corpse
Yep. That's the whole idea of the cadaver collector. I agree that it makes it a niche figure.

[patzymur]

I'm not getting the theory behind corpse collection, dok. Is it just to enable abilities that activate upon destroying a figure?

~Aldin, joining the corpse
Yep. That's the whole idea of the cadaver collector. I agree that it makes it a niche figure.

Niche, but fun. It makes a cool theme, imagining a wizard who deals in necromancy (raising zombie & vampires) and constructomancy (raising Cadaver Collectors). The cadaver collector brings back corpses to feed/multiply/heal his undead hordes.

I'd like to see him be able to provide all the corpses he's carrying in one turn, though. It might require a point cost raise, but would make him more useful. I don't think I'd want to keep Cyprien adjacent for 3 full order markers to get 3 guaranteed life drains. It adds an interesting dynamic as well as the CC gets scarier as he builds his corpse inventory. Your opponent may not worry about him too much if he's carrying 0 or 1 corpses, but if he's got 3, your opponent would have to worry about destroying the CC before he can do a big unloading, producing 3 zombies, or healing Cyprien.

[Confred]

ok, I'll bite
Cadaver Collector
IMPALE
Opponent's figures that are adjacent to this Cadaver Collector cannot move and roll 2 less defense dice.
CORPSE COLLECTION
If a figure adjacent to this Cadaver Collector is destroyed, that figure must be placed on this Army Card. Instead of attacking with a figure adjacent to this Cadaver Collector, you may remove one figure from this Army Card.
-
With Corpse Collection this guy always gets the Vikings added to his card. If he picks up a custom that adds ill effects you can sacrifice an attack to clean his back.
Removed most conditions for overall word cleanliness. The impact is minimal.
It would be cooler if his Life was 3.
With Impale like this, his Attack should be 3.

[Fen_Hydra]

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/cadaver_collector_original.jpg


This looks great! The only thing I don't get is the point of the "Corpse Collection" ability. It doesn't really seem to do anything. Other than that, great job!:thumbsup:

[Dad_Scaper]

"In stead of attacking" should be "Instead of attacking."

Looks great, dok. Kudos on this & all the customs in the thread.

[Good Pig]

Here is a picture of the Griffon Cavalry I saw online, gives a sense of scale next to that huge dragon.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_1v_1_hhWp84/SShXtMhs6ZI/AAAAAAAAAak/N3K_vcnWe9g/s400/Miniatures+1.jpg

[dok]

I don't think there's any question that the Griffon would fit on a Deathwalker base. The question is whether you could get it to balance adequately. You'd probably need to put some rocks on the base, and/or make use of some lead tape.

I've been meaning to re-do the Cadaver Collector's powers. I think the only way the mechanic really works is if figures impaled on the Cadaver Collector are taken off the battlefield.

[kolakoski]

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/cadaver_collector_original.jpg


This looks great! The only thing I don't get is the point of the "Corpse Collection" ability. It doesn't really seem to do anything. Other than that, great job!:thumbsup:

It sure would help the Tagawa Samurai!

[dok]

Here's a heavy ripoff of Good Pig's Zombie Hulk (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=32420) custom:

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/zombie_hulk_original.jpg

The main idea here is to give zombies a better shot against the growing number of large/huge figures out there. The zombie shriek power isn't quite full bonding, because it only works until the zombie hulk gets engaged. In practice, it would be pretty hard to get four attacks for more than one turn in a row.

Having spent some time trying to re-do the Cadaver Collector's powers, I really appreciate that these two powers are relatively straightforward. However, I'm definitely willing to throw a third power in the mix if it's needed.

EDIT: I changed the wording of Zombie Shriek so that a Zombie Hulk could activate either the Zombies of Morindan, or another Zombie Hulk.

[Good Pig]

I like how you worded it to be Undead Savage, rather than listing him and the zombies specifically. It simplifies it and gives room for more options down the road. I think I'll be editing mine once more. Another option I was thinking about could be

Paralyzing Fear
All small or medium opponent's figures that enter or occupy a space adjacent to Zombie Hulk may not move.

This could make it so he can pin down smaller units while the zombies advance to get their ZRA. Exactly like Gladiatrons Cyberclaw except maybe without the restrictions to nerf it a little and save space on his card.

[adbirk19]

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/cadaver_collector_original.jpg


This looks great! The only thing I don't get is the point of the "Corpse Collection" ability. It doesn't really seem to do anything. Other than that, great job!:thumbsup:

It sure would help the Tagawa Samurai!

It sure would help the Zombies.

Adjacent zombie kills a squad figure a zombie comes back. Then next turn you can kill it again two zombies for the price of one.:twisted:

That is what I get from the card.

[dok]

Adjacent zombie kills a squad figure a zombie comes back. Then next turn you can kill it again two zombies for the price of one.http://www.heroscapers.com/community/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

That is what I get from the card.Actually, the corpse collection power doesn't trigger when an undead figure gets the kill. Otherwise, yeah, you could get double kills.

I don't really like the Cadaver Collector powers, but I'm struggling to come up with a way to make those powers that doesn't involve having microscopic text on the card.

Another option I was thinking about could be

Paralyzing Fear
All small or medium opponent's figures that enter or occupy a space adjacent to Zombie Hulk may not move.

This could make it so he can pin down smaller units while the zombies advance to get their ZRA. Exactly like Gladiatrons Cyberclaw except maybe without the restrictions to nerf it a little and save space on his card.Here's a power I was toying with:

Zombie Slam 12

When a small or medium figure rolls defense dice and is not destroyed by an attack from this Zombie Hulk, immediately roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 12 or higher, you may move that figure one space. A figure moved by Zombie Slam never takes any leaving engagement attacks. A non-flying figure moved by Zombie Slam is subject to falling damage.

It's basically a nerfed version of Shurrak's Knockback. The "one space" terminology automatically means you can only move down or to level spaces.

I'm not sure the Zombie Hulk needs a third power, but if it does, it should be something in this range - just something that gives a little edge, but not too much.

[Nivik23]

Love the Zombie Hulk and noticed you were thinking of adding a 3rd ability...if you don't mind me suggesting one, I was thinking the other day you could maybe do a Left For Dead inspired concept:

Hurl Bile
After moving and before attacking, choose an opponent's figure up to 3 clear sight spaces away and roll the 20 sided dice. If you roll a 1-5 nothing happens, 6-10 all the Zombies of Morindan you control may move up to 1 space closer to the targeted figure, 11-15 move up to 2 spaces closer, 16-19 move up to 3 spaces closer, 20 move up to 4 spaces closer.

[dok]

I have a new revised version of the Zombie Hulk that I am pretty satisfied with.

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/zombie_hulk_3_91568_original.jpg

I ended up going with a third power very similar to Good Pig's original. Making the defense reduction only work on adjacent figures really complements the Horde Shriek power, so that Zombie Hulks are either taking OMs and doing damage, or acting as cheerleaders and getting attacked.

It makes for a very cool dynamic, and an interesting, challenging army to play. You're constantly juggling OMs between the hulks, the zombies, and any support figures you have. My favorite moment of my most recent test game was when I put my third OM on a dead zombie Hulk and got to bond and attack with it after bringing it back.

I also added the Thanos-style "remove wound markers" language, which seems necessary here for clarity.

[dok]

Now that Moltenclaw is out, I can't resist making a version of what is, in my opinion, the coolest D&D figure out there - the dragon knight:

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/zetchr_original.jpg

Basically, you're paying 20 points for the rider's autowound power. The dragon's stats are the same (just as they are in D&D minis).

[dok]

One of the things about D&Dscape that was sort of a shame was that we got a lot of questionable sculpt choices, despite there being some very nice sculpts out there that were never used. In particular, we never got any of the huge figures, many of which would look really good in Heroscape.

I've got several figures coming down the pipe, but here's the one I've done the most testing with:

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/crag_139023_original.jpg

The figure is the "Earth Titan", which is a $7 figure at trollandtoad. I've got the figure right now, and it fits perfectly on a big double-hexer. He's a sliver taller than Grimnak and quite a lot beefier, but he balances very well. Best of all, he looks like a giant Granite Guardian, so I gave him some synergy with them. I also recycled one of my favorite powers, because Trample Stomp is just too cool, and when I look at this figure it just screams trample stomp.

I think this one still needs a little bit of tweaking, although it's done about what I want in testing so far. The key thing to remember if you want to test this guy is that the Elementar Enhancement power is a freebie, balance-wise. The best armies involving this guy are probably not going to include the GGs, so I'm looking to make him a fun and competitive unit when played alongside things like Goblin Cuttersx5, or PKx3+Raelin, or even Mohicans and Brave Arrow. Once I've got the stats nailed down, only then will I consider tweaking Elementar Enhancement (tweaking the range or power of the aura) in order to make the GG army play in a fun/competitive way, and I will only tweak that one power in order to get there.

[Chardar]

Whoa that is an epic sculpt.

I could almost see him dropping to 180-190. Comparing him to TKN. He's got one more defense, but one less life. Equal attack, but one less move. Both have trample stomp. Elementar Inspiration is very situational, and probably won't come into use much. The real thing that makes TKN worth so much more is his life bonding with the Nagrubs. They're a weak squad, so the movement isn't worth much, but TKN is tough. The healing factor is worth a lot, and I think that gives TKN a serious edge in an army.

[dok]

Whoa that is an epic sculpt.Yeah, it sure is. It looks freaking sweet in a game of Heroscape, too.

It will look even better when I put it on a real base, too. For now, I just used wire cutters to trim the 3" circular D&D base down into a peanut shape (or really, a rounded hourglass shape, since the true peanut base is a bit longer than 3"). I sanded it down a bit to get smooth sides and a flat bottom and I was good to go. You were right about wire cutters being great for base work.

I could almost see him dropping to 180-190. Comparing him to TKN. He's got one more defense, but one less life. Equal attack, but one less move. Both have trample stomp. Elementar Inspiration is very situational, and probably won't come into use much. The real thing that makes TKN worth so much more is his life bonding with the Nagrubs. They're a weak squad, so the movement isn't worth much, but TKN is tough. The healing factor is worth a lot, and I think that gives TKN a serious edge in an army.I agree with all of this. The 200 number is me starting out with a conservative value. My instinct is that I will probably end up dropping it down into the 180-190 range like you say.

[quozl]

I'm surprised you didn't modify Trample Stomp so that it doesn't have to be on the same level.

[dok]

I'm surprised you didn't modify Trample Stomp so that it doesn't have to be on the same level.Now THAT is a good idea. But I've got to be very careful with the language... there's a reason they did it that way.

[dok]

I ended up using the language I developed in my old "re-working Trample Denial" thread. Since this guy can't nagrub heal and only has 5 life, he can't disengage like TKN does, so being able to spend the trample movement but not move will prevent him from getting pinned in too easily.

With this change, I definitely want to do some testing before I drop it below 200. Eliminating trample denial might be a big deal.

[Filthy the Clown]

Cool sculpt and powers. Paired with GGs, that guy will be worth every bit of 200 points (Gelmir + 3 squads of Granite Guardians). Albeit slow moving, but 4 attack/6 defense rockers (6 attack with height[Landslide]!), backed by that beast, are going to slow roll though most things. Fast-moving auto-wounders (black wyrmlings come to mind) will be good counters, though.

[Taeblewalker]

Just glancing at the first posts, I like the Griffon, though I wonder if maybe she's under-costed. Even without the Bonding.

The Skeletal Giants sound really cool, especially the first power. I like the way you handled their skeletal resilience.

Trample Attack is a nice variant on Tetsubo, though I have the equiceph and minotaur, and they seem to me to be medium and large, respectively. I don't know about the other fig.

It's great that you made the Driders Arachnids, but other than that, they seem too derivative of the Deepwyrm Drow.

[quozl]

I ended up using the language I developed in my old "re-working Trample Denial" thread. Since this guy can't nagrub heal and only has 5 life, he can't disengage like TKN does, so being able to spend the trample movement but not move will prevent him from getting pinned in too easily.

With this change, I definitely want to do some testing before I drop it below 200. Eliminating trample denial might be a big deal.

I like the new language except for one item. I think it should say that he must move to the space the figure formerly occupied, not may.

[Taeblewalker]

Here's a power I was toying with:
Zombie Slam 12

When a small or medium figure rolls defense dice and is not destroyed by an attack from this Zombie Hulk, immediately roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 12 or higher, you may move that figure one space. A figure moved by Zombie Slam never takes any leaving engagement attacks. A non-flying figure moved by Zombie Slam is subject to falling damage.
It's basically a nerfed version of Shurrak's Knockback. The "one space" terminology automatically means you can only move down or to level spaces.



The power also guarantees that it won't work on slippery ice or heavy snow. ;)

I ended up using the language I developed in my old "re-working Trample Denial" thread. Since this guy can't nagrub heal and only has 5 life, he can't disengage like TKN does, so being able to spend the trample movement but not move will prevent him from getting pinned in too easily.

With this change, I definitely want to do some testing before I drop it below 200. Eliminating trample denial might be a big deal.

I like the new language except for one item. I think it should say that he must move to the space the figure formerly occupied, not may.

Is the Earth Titan a one-space figure?

In any case, both the Titan and Zetchr are very, very good!

[dok]

Cool sculpt and powers. Paired with GGs, that guy will be worth every bit of 200 points (Gelmir + 3 squads of Granite Guardians). Albeit slow moving, but 4 attack/6 defense rockers (6 attack with height[Landslide]!), backed by that beast, are going to slow roll though most things. Fast-moving auto-wounders (black wyrmlings come to mind) will be good counters, though.Thanks. Yeah, anything with autowounds does well against the GG+Gelmir combo. Even then they're in Gelmir's aura, though, GGs are basically no stronger than minions, and minions have plenty of bad matchups. Even with the Elementar power, I would probably be more confident playing Glemir+Cuttersx5 or Gelmir+PKx4 or Gelmir+Raelin+Krav+whatever, than Gelmir+GGx3.

Just glancing at the first posts, I like the Griffon, though I wonder if maybe she's under-costed. Even without the Bonding.She is pretty awesome. I just got the sculpt, and boy oh boy am I excited to test her now, although I need to re-base her (I cut the D&D base down to single-hex size, and it would be stable except that the plastic is too soft). Still, I don't think she's really part of any power build I can come up with as-is, so I have a hard time arguing she's undercosted. The ability to carry a friendly into battle and THEN start acting like a Wyvern is really, really cool, but 100 points takes a lot of squads off the table.

The Skeletal Giants sound really cool, especially the first power. I like the way you handled their skeletal resilience.

Trample Attack is a nice variant on Tetsubo, though I have the equiceph and minotaur, and they seem to me to be medium and large, respectively. I don't know about the other fig.As of a few days ago, I have the equiceph and the cyclops. The equiceph is a very big medium figure or a rather little large figure; he looks much better on a single base, for sure, but I don't think he'd fit on a classic medium HS base. The cyclops is bigger, and definitely a double-hexer. Unfortunately, it appears that those figures just don't make a cohesive-looking squad.

It's great that you made the Driders Arachnids, but other than that, they seem too derivative of the Deepwyrm Drow.I agree. Also, based on my understanding of base sizes (I don't have any of those figures) I don't think the sizes of those figures match up well.

I ended up using the language I developed in my old "re-working Trample Denial" thread. Since this guy can't nagrub heal and only has 5 life, he can't disengage like TKN does, so being able to spend the trample movement but not move will prevent him from getting pinned in too easily.

With this change, I definitely want to do some testing before I drop it below 200. Eliminating trample denial might be a big deal.

I like the new language except for one item. I think it should say that he must move to the space the figure formerly occupied, not may.It should get tested, but I like keeping it as-is. As I said, a 5-life, non-regenerating figure can't be nearly as cavalier about disengaging as TKN is. If you can't disengage, then two squaddies engaging you on opposite sides can keep you from using Rolling landslide without taking a disengagement swipe. The "may" frees you from that. Note that you spend the movement whether or not you make the move, though.

Here's a power I was toying with:Zombie Slam 12

When a small or medium figure rolls defense dice and is not destroyed by an attack from this Zombie Hulk, immediately roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 12 or higher, you may move that figure one space. A figure moved by Zombie Slam never takes any leaving engagement attacks. A non-flying figure moved by Zombie Slam is subject to falling damage.
It's basically a nerfed version of Shurrak's Knockback. The "one space" terminology automatically means you can only move down or to level spaces.



The power also guarantees that it won't work on slippery ice or heavy snow. ;)Heh. Yeah, good point. Good thing I didn't use that one, eh? ;)


Is the Earth Titan a one-space figure?Decidedly not. He's height 11 (I've measured him) and very beefy, and his big feet require a large Grimnak/Mimring-style peanut base.

In any case, both the Titan and Zetchr are very, very good!Thanks! Unfortunately, my newly-found more nuanced understanding of the D&D base sizes leads me to believe that Zetchr would present pretty ridiculous wing-denial issues to melee figures. It would be cool to find out, though...

[dok]

This one is something completely different. I took the (very inexpensive) Trebuchet figure in the new D&D set, and designed a custom destructible object card for it.

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/trebuchet_212807_original.jpg

The model is too wide for a double-hexer, but would probably fit on a 4-hex shadow tile.

It's basically for scenario use, although I suppose you could design a castle attack map where one side starts in the castle, but there's a well-placed trebuchet on the other side that draws the defenders out. - assuming you have some soldiers to use it. Speaking of which, is the soldier distinction too restrictive? Maybe I should just require a certain number of figures? EDIT: changed the language so that it can get used by anybody that can manage three adjacent figures.

[dok]

I've turned the first post of the thread into a display of the customs that I consider somewhat polished.

[dok]

After some pretty intense edits by the CHCG24 crowd, I've re-done Gelmir, including re-naming him Crag and overhauling his version of Trample Stomp:

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/crag_139023_original.jpg

I think this new version is much easier to understand. Many thanks to the folks involved in the brainstorming.

[Taeblewalker]

Must he figure he tramples also be on a space where Crag could end his movement?

[dok]

Must he figure he tramples also be on a space where Crag could end his movement?Nope. Just a spot that he has enough movement to move onto.

Here's a custom card I've been sitting on for a while.

EDIT: this post no longer up-to-date.

I kept waiting for inspiration to strike and lead me toward giving him some different, creative powers, but I really like both of these powers with him, even if they're re-treads.


He pretty much HAS to have reach (his axe is 2 hexes long by itself!), unless I just give him a range of 2 (which I could, I guess), and those two powers take up the whole card.

He's not a very metagamey figure, unlike most of my cards which I try to make fairly competitive in a standard tournament environment. This guy hits hard as heck but in the end he can only attack once a turn. I might be able to get away with cutting his cost a little bit, but if I make him too inexpensive then he's completely ridiculous in a dungeon crawl or unique hero environment.

[Filthy the Clown]

Must he figure he tramples also be on a space where Crag could end his movement?Nope. Just a spot that he has enough movement to move onto.

Here's a custom card I've been sitting on for a while. I kept waiting for inspiration to strike and lead me toward giving him some different, creative powers, but I really like both of these powers with him, even if they're re-treads.

<card>

He pretty much HAS to have reach (his axe is 2 hexes long by itself!), unless I just give him a range of 2 (which I could, I guess), and those two powers take up the whole card.

He's not a very metagamey figure, unlike most of my cards which I try to make fairly competitive in a standard tournament environment. This guy hits hard as heck but in the end he can only attack once a turn. I might be able to get away with cutting his cost a little bit, but if I make him too inexpensive then he's completely ridiculous in a dungeon crawl or unique hero environment.

Sweet Jiminy. Give him height and an attack-boosting glyph, and he is a wrecking ball. On that note, a range of 2 will keep him from enjoying Finn's Attack Aura boost, which somehow makes sense. Pretty cool card/sculpt, but I don't think that Knockback will be used much... :)

[Taeblewalker]

A range of 2 would also let him hit a figure that is 30 levels above him. ;)

[dok]

I just realized I left in the "normal or special" text in knockback, which is obviously irrelevant here.

I guess I could just give him a range of 2, but it would feel wrong if he's attacking down from a castle wall, or up on a double castle wall. That's about the only times, though.

I could also reasonably drop knockback (like you say, it's not going to trigger much, although it would happen with heroes a decent amount). That gives me plenty of room for powers. I could give him some version (an enhanced version?) of Ice Cold from the GIE, which he really ought to have.

[Dad_Scaper]

I think it has to be Reach instead of a range of 2 because of the castle wall problem: if his base is 10 (or whatever) levels away from the other fig's base, he probably shouldn't be able to hit it with the axe.

About Crag:
If he's on the lower level here:

***************_
*********y_
******x
***CC

He could, with a full move at his disposal, Trample x, where x is one level higher on a 1-hex step, because he can *go* there, but he can't stop there. Assuming he is successful he has now moved 2/5 and therefore can *not* Trample y, also on a 1-hex step, because Crag is not on a hex where he could stop, notwithstanding the fact that if he is unsuccessful at trampling y he could retreat to the pair of hexes where he started. Or if he successfully stomped y he could actually finish his move and stop on that two hex ledge. But he still can't Trample Y for the simple reason that he can't stop where he is, having stomped X and halfway onto that lower ledge.

Right?

[dok]

Assuming I have interpreted your ascii artistry and explanation correctly... yes, that's right. Since his move automatically ends when he fails on a trample, he must be on two level hexes to make an attempt.

[Dad_Scaper]

Ok. It leads to some interesting and non-intuitive results, but does make it (I think) considerably more powerful than Tor Kul Na's.

Iiiintedesting...

[Taeblewalker]

Ok. It leads to some interesting and non-intuitive results, but does make it (I think) considerably more powerful than Tor Kul Na's.

Iiiintedesting...

In your example, it seems like he would have to back down after trampling X. It also seems like he would not be able to start to trample X if he had already moved 3, since he has only 2 move left, and would not be able to move back down or anywhere else to level off his base.

[Dad_Scaper]

Ok. It leads to some interesting and non-intuitive results, but does make it (I think) considerably more powerful than Tor Kul Na's.

Iiiintedesting...

In your example, it seems like he would have to back down after trampling X. It also seems like he would not be able to start to trample X if he had already moved 3, since he has only 2 move left, and would not be able to move back down or anywhere else to level off his base.

Yes, I agree 100%. Assuming a 3d guy, let's call him z, adjacent to Crag before he starts his move, Crag can Trample uphill to take care of x and then attack z if he wants, with disengage applying if z is adjacent only to the hex further from x.

[Taeblewalker]

The major point is that you have to count ahead to see if you have enough move to even back down from X's space, or if you get it "for free." The leaving engagement attack does indeed work from Z.

As for the Frost Titan, you might consider that he has an aura that slows enemies (all spaces a figure enters takes an extra move to enter). Slippery ice would take 3 move, for example. The power could be named Numbing Cold. This could replace Knockback and the proposed Ice Spikes.

[Dad_Scaper]

The major point is that you have to count ahead to see if you have enough move to even back down from X's space, or if you get it "for free."
That's what I was wondering, if you have to be able to get back down. But I don't think you do. Either you are standing on a legal space or you are not. If yes, you can Trample, if not, you cannot. And of course you can never end your move in an illegal position.

It's possible I'm confusing myself at this point, but it was thinking about that exact question - does it matter if he can get back down - that led to my question.

[dok]

Ok. It leads to some interesting and non-intuitive results, but does make it (I think) considerably more powerful than Tor Kul Na's.

Iiiintedesting...

In your example, it seems like he would have to back down after trampling X. It also seems like he would not be able to start to trample X if he had already moved 3, since he has only 2 move left, and would not be able to move back down or anywhere else to level off his base.

Yes, I agree 100%. Assuming a 3d guy, let's call him z, adjacent to Crag before he starts his move, Crag can Trample uphill to take care of x and then attack z if he wants, with disengage applying if z is adjacent only to the hex further from x.

The major point is that you have to count ahead to see if you have enough move to even back down from X's space, or if you get it "for free." The leaving engagement attack does indeed work from Z.Actually, you don't have to count ahead. You only have to have enough movement to "move onto [the space]". No mention of actually making the move is built into this condition, so whether or not it can be part of a move that ends with Crag on two same-level spaces doesn't come into play. Do what the card says, not what the card doesn't say. The wording is intentionally different than that of TKN's trample stomp on this point.

It does come into play in whether or not Crag can continue movement, though. If Crag continues his movement (note the "if" on the card, there), he has to start by moving onto that space. If he can't move onto that space as part of a move that ends on two same-level spaces, then he can't continue his movement.

Q: If Crag has two move remaining, can he attempt to trample a small/medium figure that is one level up and adjacent?

A: Yes. You have enough movement remaining to move onto the space, so you can. However, you don't have enough move to reach a final position on two same-level spaces after moving up, so you cannot choose to continue Crag's movement. Crag's move will therefore end after the trample attempt, even if he destroys the figure.

As for the Frost Titan, you might consider that he has an aura that slows enemies (all spaces a figure enters takes an extra move to enter). Slippery ice would take 3 move, for example. The power could be named Numbing Cold. This could replace Knockback and the proposed Ice Spikes.Interesting concept. I was thinking of some sort of enhanced version of Ice Cold. Adding a swirling-vortex-esqe power would be pretty cool, especially since it would usually give him first strike with his reach. I like it.

[dok]

I re-did Ymir. Knockback is gone, replaced by "Blizzard", which is an enhanced version of Ice Cold with Swirling Vortex thrown in. I also slightly enhanced reach (seriously, have you seen that axe?) and renamed it "great axe".

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/ymir_original.jpg

Thanks to blizzard, he's now pretty dominant against any small/medium melee hero. That's OK, I think.

[Dad_Scaper]

Q: If Crag has two move remaining, can he attempt to trample a small/medium figure that is one level up and adjacent?

A: Yes. You have enough movement remaining to move onto the space, so you can. However, you don't have enough move to reach a final position on two same-level spaces after moving up, so you cannot choose to continue Crag's movement. Crag's move will therefore end after the trample attempt, even if he destroys the figure.

Wow. That's not intuitive at all & I bet at least 5 people out of 10 would come away from reading this card not understanding that.

I'm not sure how to help. I'll take a swing at editing if you'd like me to, or if you're happy with it as is I'll leave it alone.

[dok]

Q: If Crag has two move remaining, can he attempt to trample a small/medium figure that is one level up and adjacent?

A: Yes. You have enough movement remaining to move onto the space, so you can. However, you don't have enough move to reach a final position on two same-level spaces after moving up, so you cannot choose to continue Crag's movement. Crag's move will therefore end after the trample attempt, even if he destroys the figure.

Wow. That's not intuitive at all & I bet at least 5 people out of 10 would come away from reading this card not understanding that.I think at least part of the problem is the tendency to approach it from the perspective of Trample Stomp, which is weird in its own ways that we've grown accustomed to. "... on a space Crag has enough movement to move onto" is reasonably self-explanatory in isolation, I think.

I'm not sure how to help. I'll take a swing at editing if you'd like me to, or if you're happy with it as is I'll leave it alone.By all means take a swing. I went through five pages of editing with the CHCG24 crowd and I would be happy to go through some more. Believe me, it was a struggle to get the language as clean as it is.

ETA: perhaps I should replace "If Crag continues his movement" with "If you choose to continue Crag's movement"?

[Taeblewalker]

My head is numb thinking about Crag's trample power.

Regarding Blizzard, it's not quite what I envisioned, but it's better in some ways - a great combo of the GIE and Aire Elemental. I was just thinking that any space within two hexes might require an extra move to enter, but yours really helps his power a lot. You might want to change the wording "Frigid Cold" in the power's text to Blizzard, though. :p

I REALLY like the Great Axe wording, with the figure's base no more than X levels above his heigh, and the figure's height no more than Y levels below his base. It's the wording I chose for my Greenvise Vine custom, and is what I think they should have done with the Fen Hydra. It should be the new standard for such powers.

I somehow envision a sweeping axe attack that is a special attack like Whirlwind Attack with fewer than 8 dice. That would be cool to fit on the card, and make more use of that long axe!

[Dad_Scaper]

During Crag's move and before attacking Crag may attempt to move through or onto a hex occupied by an adjacent small or medium squad figure. When Crag attempts to Rockslide Trample, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll an 8 or higher, the figure is destroyed and Crag continues his movement onto that hex. If you do not roll an 8 or higher Crag's move ends immediately.
I took the liberty of changing the mechanic a bit, too. I think it's more thematic if heroes are immune; I don't think it makes sense to be "rockslide trampling" Syvarris and putting just one wound on him.

I also left out anything like "The ordinary movement rules otherwise apply;" I think that just makes it more confusing rather than less. There's no expansion of the movement rules other than what's in there. It doesn't say on Grimnak's card that he can't stop somewhere he's not allowed to stop; I don't think there's a reason Crag's card should be different in that aspect. He's a two hex fig and there are rules about where he can stop, and those rules don't change.

Here it is again with your mechanics as I understand them:
During Crag's move and before attacking Crag may attempt to move through or onto a hex occupied by an adjacent small or medium figure. When Crag attempts to Rockslide Trample, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll an 8 or higher, the chosen figure receives one wound. If the figure is destroyed Crag continues his movement onto that hex. If you do not roll an 8 or higher Crag's move ends immediately.

:2cents:

I do love the fig and the sculpt. I'm curious for your thoughts on my alternate wording.

[Taeblewalker]

Is "before attacking" really necessary?

[Dad_Scaper]

It's funny you ask. It's not in there by accident; I wanted to head off any questions about the phrase at the end that "Crag's move ends immediately" suggesting that he does not also get to attack.

Technically, semantically, grammatically, it's a bit of an appendage and *can* come out, though I'm not sure it should.

It's just my :2cents: anyway, but that's why I had that in there.

[dok]

I'm keeping the hero effects... so...

Here it is again with your mechanics as I understand them:
During Crag's move and before attacking Crag may attempt to move through or onto a hex occupied by an adjacent small or medium figure. When Crag attempts to Rockslide Trample, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll an 8 or higher, the chosen figure receives one wound. If the figure is destroyed Crag continues his movement onto that hex. If you do not roll an 8 or higher Crag's move ends immediately.:2cents:

I do love the fig and the sculpt. I'm curious for your thoughts on my alternate wording.


Here's my thoughts:
There is a functional difference between the two powers in the sense that the movement onto the trampled figure is mandatory in your version, and you can't trample if you can't move on and move out. I'm not really attached to the functional differences, though - it's a fairly minor difference and I'm more interested in just getting something easy to use.
I don't see why "before attacking" needs to be in there. During movement is sufficient. That's before attacking implicitly.
I don't see why you need the "through or" in the text. "Move onto" is sufficient.
I could be wrong about this, but I believe the word "hex" never appears in any official power, or in the movement section of the rules. It is always a "space".
You need to have the "Crag must be on a space where he can end his movement every time he attempts to use Rockslide Trample". Otherwise you have the possibility of Crag's move ending when he's not on two level spaces.
In the hero version, you need to be clear that Crag's movement ends if the hero is not destroyed, so I would just replace "if you do not roll an 8 or higher" with "if the figure is not destroyed".So, making the edits I suggest to your suggested edit, I get:Rockslide Trample
During Crag's move, Crag may attempt to move onto a space occupied by an adjacent small or medium figure. When Crag attempts to Rockslide Trample, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll an 8 or higher, the chosen figure receives one wound. If the figure is destroyed, Crag continues his movement onto that space. If the figure is not destroyed, Crag's move ends immediately. Crag must be on a space where he can end his movement every time he attempts to use Rockslide Trample.
So... it's definitely an interesting suggestion. I have to say, though, I'm very leery about forcing the player to project the possible future moves after the trample stomp and demonstrate that the trample is part of a possible complete move. This was avoided in the original TKN language, for good reason, I think. I can't think of any official power that requires that sort of analysis by the player to justify the move.

If we cut out the parts of the text that are functionally the same, you're replacing:
Crag may choose a small or medium adjacent figure on a space Crag has enough movement to move onto... if you choose to continue Crag's movement, he must begin by moving onto the space the destroyed figure occupied.withCrag may attempt to move onto a space occupied by an adjacent small or medium figure... Crag continues his movement onto that space.Any sane person will recognize that your suggested text is much simpler. The issue as I see it is that you're forcing the player to forecast future movement, which is something no power asks a player to do and something I'd really prefer to avoid.

[Dad_Scaper]

Yeah, you correctly edited out some unnecessary language in mine. I don't see how mine forces a player to identify a full legal move, it just means that the player can't do things in such a way that he is stuck somewhere illegal.

But it's your custom & reasonable minds can differ. It was a fun exercise.

The word "hex" definitely felt wrong. Now I know why. :)

[dok]

I don't see how mine forces a player to identify a full legal move, it just means that the player can't do things in such a way that he is stuck somewhere illegal.Isn't that identifying a legal move? Or identifying an illegal move, which is the same thing?

Assuming TW is on the same page you are, this makes at least four people that think that it's better to have simple language but force the player to hash out their move, as opposed to giving a more complex set of conditions that preclude the possibility of an illegal ending position. This isn't a religious position for me; if the broad consensus is that that is a reasonable way to phrase the power, I don't mind using the simpler language. I do feel pretty strongly that this would be breaking new ground in the sense of what we're expecting from the players, though.

[Dad_Scaper]

Hmm. I am now 100% sure that I'm missing something. Isn't it *always* part of the game that a 2 hex figure cannot end its move illegally? I didn't think I was adding anything & just leaving that implicit.

I'm not trying to beat you over the head with this at all, I'm just trying to make sure we understand each other and I'm not seeing the gap.

Maybe it's the lateness of the hour. When I'm finished this project that's kept me up the last couple of weeks don't expect me to be on here at this ludicrous time of night. :)

[dok]

I don't think you're really missing anything, it's more of a question of whether this is really an extra level of complication or not. And maybe I'm the crazy one, even if it's not so ludicrously late in Denver.

Yes, the requirements to hash this out are fundamentally the same as hashing out any movement you ever attempt with a walking double-hex figure. The difference is that you have to do it imagining that a figure on the board isn't on the board, and you have to, in some sense, "complete" the virtual move before you attempt yo use the power. If the opposing player challenged Crag's player, it would be reasonable to expect Crag's player to have to say "yes, I can make the attempt because after I destroy the figure and move there, I could then move to there with my remaining move and end my move on two same-level spaces".

I'm not trying to say this is incredibly difficult stuff. All I'm trying to say is that that sort of justification for a power doesn't come up in any other power in the game, including TKN's trample stomp.

... and look, maybe that's not a big deal. I am open to that possibility. I also don't think the language I'm currently using is terribly difficult, though. I mean, look above where I distilled the two versions down to their core differences. As many a super-villain has said over the years, "we're not so different, you and I". ;)

[Taeblewalker]

I do prefer the simpler wording, but I am certain that some people will be scratching their heads over whether they can move onto that single space stair with no movement left to level off again.
How about this:

ROCKSLIDE BARRAGE
During Crag's move, instead of moving one space, he may Rockslide Barrage an adjacent small or medium figure. If he does so, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll less than 8, Crag must end his movement. If you roll an 8 or higher, the figure receives one wound. Crag may then continue his move or use Rockslide Barrage again as long as he has any Move left. He may not use Rockslide Barrage on the same figure more than once per turn.


This new version does not require Crag to move onto the space occupied by the wounded figure, and it lets him continue to move even if he did not destroy a figure. It also avoids the issues of using TKN's power without the extra wording prohibiting trampling figure X in the earlier example.

[Dad_Scaper]

I don't know, TW, I didn't think either variation implied you could end your move illegally.

[Taeblewalker]

I don't know, TW, I didn't think either variation implied you could end your move illegally.

They didn't really, but they seem, at least for some players, to lead the player into making the Trample attack on that figure X, then belatedly having to undo it because they realized they didn't have the Move left to back down or move one more onto level ground. Some people will probably say that it's confusing. They might even just assume that the card meant to have TKN's wording.

[dok]

I don't know, TW, I didn't think either variation implied you could end your move illegally.

They didn't really, but they seem, at least for some players, to lead the player into making the Trample attack on that figure X, then belatedly having to undo it because they realized they didn't have the Move left to back down or move one more onto level ground. Some people will probably say that it's confusing.My guess is that the original TKN language included the same-level restriction precisely because they wanted to avoid this situation.

They might even just assume that the card meant to have TKN's wording.Honestly, this is a big part of the struggle, I think. When Dad_Scaper said "I bet at least 5 people out of 10 would come away from reading this card not understanding that", I think a large part of the problem is that people will approach the card from the perspective of "how is this different from Trample Stomp". I really don't think a literal reading of the card is that hard.

Taeblewalker, your new version is very simple, definitely works, and is relatively easy to understand. It is, however, very different mechanically from Trample stomp. It takes two move to do what TKN does in one (i.e. kill the figure and move into its space) and it allows him to rockslide figures several levels up with only one move, as well as rockslide in all directions without taking disengagement swipes.

[Kurrok The Elementalist]

your customs are amazing dok, they work great

[dok]

I don't know, TW, I didn't think either variation implied you could end your move illegally.

They didn't really, but they seem, at least for some players, to lead the player into making the Trample attack on that figure X, then belatedly having to undo it because they realized they didn't have the Move left to back down or move one more onto level ground. Some people will probably say that it's confusing.My guess is that the original TKN language included the same-level restriction precisely because they wanted to avoid this situation.I guess I could note here that there actually already is an "oops, actually, I can't trample you so you're still alive and let me back TKN up" situation in the game. It happens when you attempt to trample a figure, succeed, and then discover that TKN doesn't fit in the space the figure occupied (due to trees/battlements/whatever). That's happened to me before.

[Taeblewalker]

I guess I could note here that there actually already is an "oops, actually, I can't trample you so you're still alive and let me back TKN up" situation in the game. It happens when you attempt to trample a figure, succeed, and then discover that TKN doesn't fit in the space the figure occupied (due to trees/battlements/whatever). That's happened to me before.

Granted, but this power makes it likelier to happen more often, and will almost certainly have people wondering if you left off the TKN wording by mistake. It's a major FAQ in the making. Which is a shame.

I also agree that my version of the power is much more powerful and probably broken.

[dok]

Here's another entry. This guy is a lot of fun.

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/zettian_marauder_184322_original.jpg

When I started working on making a custom for this figure, I did think back to Sportcult's version of this figure (http://i437.photobucket.com/albums/qq98/sportcult/custom%20cards/zettian_relic_card.jpg), which never seemed quite right to me but has some really good ideas. Then I thought of the new "X" marker mechanic from Evar Scarcarver and Siege, and I thought, what if that was the "begin spinning flails" marker? I actually really like having the X as a bluff and don't really want to use this approach on too many figures, but it seemed so perfect here that I couldn't resist.

The whole "nail your friends and your enemies indiscriminately" thing makes for a fun figure to play.

The figure is the Blood Golem of Hextor from the Unhallowed set, which can be found for between $2 and $3 at the usual places. It's on one of the 2-inch WotC bases, but can easily be cut to D3 base size with a pair of scissors, or rebased onto a DW9k base.

[Dad_Scaper]

Excellent & thematic interpretation of the fig. I like the mechanics and the points look about right.

Separately, I do note you misspelled one word. 8)

[dok]

Excellent & thematic interpretation of the fig. I like the mechanics and the points look about right.

Separately, I do note you misspelled one word. 8)Thanks, and thanks for the spot. That's one of those words I just can't get right.

The question is, will the pricing still look right after I post my next squad?

[Dad_Scaper]

The question is, will the pricing still look right after I post my next squad?

Answer: No. :D

[dok]

The question is, will the pricing still look right after I post my next squad?

Answer: No. :DHeh. You might be right. I'm definitely still assessing the impact of the Zettian infantry. There's only one ranged bonding squad in the game right now, and it has 1/1 stats.* Still, 4M/4R/2A is pretty weak, and they cost as much as stingers. I don't think the Zettian/Deathwalker army is as strong as the Nilf/Zelrig/Braxas versions of the Greenscale army, but I do need to test it more.

* The Mohican River Tribe has to essentially make itself a melee squad, by getting engaged to the enemy, in order to become a bonding squad. It's a brilliant mechanic that I copied with the Mariedians.

[Taeblewalker]

I can't help but wonder why he isn't called Deathwalker 6000.
Otherwise, my own aesthetics say that a lower number Deathwalker would still have 1 Life, be medium, and cost less than DW7K.

Unless you have reimagined all of the previous DW's with new cards.

That said, I like the unit, and I really have no criticisms.

[dok]

I can't help but wonder why he isn't called Deathwalker 6000.
Otherwise, my own aesthetics say that a lower number Deathwalker would still have 1 Life, be medium, and cost less than DW7K.I actually agree that the name is a weak point. I was trying to convey that it's an earlier model, but maybe it shouldn't be a Deathwalker at all. Sportcult's "Zettian War Relic" name is pretty cool but I don't want to copy that.

[dok]

I re-named it the Zettian Marauder and changed the class to Marauder.

[Taeblewalker]

Sweet! I like it.

[dok]

I very slightly edited the language on the Zettian Marauder - I added the words "onto a space" to whirlwind strike. It isn't technically needed but I think it makes it a little more clear that you roll for whirlwind strike for each move as you move around the Marauder, not just the one where you first move adjacent.

I promised Taeblewalker that I had an even narrower version of phantom walk I was playing with, and here it is.

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/sir_chorin_21584_original.jpg

The figure is the "Centaur War Hulk" from the Blood War release; it's about a $5 figure. You can fit it on a DW9k base without any problems, but it looks better on a peanut. The scale of the horse-parts are a bit larger than other Heroscape horses, but not by so much than it looks wrong to me.

I really like the limited phantom walk here and the way it plays. I'm not sure on the pricing of this guy but he feels like he should be more than 120 and less than 140, just by comparing him to other heroes.

[Taeblewalker]

Sir Chorin seems like more of a stand-alone figure than one to combine with Sir Denrick for any Knight bonuses. Concan would be a good match with him, though. He clears rats and goblins with ease, and he packs a heavy wallop, whether he has a head start or not. His Move and Survivability make him likely to get into combat and to take out a few figures before he goes down, even against concentrated attacks.

The best use of him, of course, would be to attack heroes and high-cost squad figures, so he can kill his points before going down. I can see moving up 2 squads of Sentinels with Concan, then sending this guy in to hit the opposition's main bully, while the Kyrie move in and Concan brings his buffs to bear for everyone. Army total: 430. Raelin (RotV) can bring up the rear for 510 points.

[dok]

It took me a while to come up with this card, but once I hit on this power/stat combination it was sort of a forehead-slapper.

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/skeletal_cyclops_original.jpg

The figure is the Skeletal Cyclops from Savage Encounters, which is between $2 and $3 (http://www.abprices.com/D/3674/skeletal-cyclops) online. It has to be re-based on a narrow peanut but looks very nice when re-based.

Like I said, this was a pretty obvious set of stats and powers in retrospect. This guy just looks right bonding with Death Knights, and evil eye defense is not only a cyclops staple but it is a nice addition to the army metagame-wise. That said, the Death Knight/Skeletal Cyclops combo was (surprisingly?) non-awesome in testing. I don't think it's underpowered, but I'm definitely not worried about this being game-breaking.

[Taeblewalker]

You might want to change the power name to Necrotic Evil Eye Protection. You might also want to change "normal attack from a non-adjacent attacking figure" to "normal attack from a non-adjacent figure," just for brevity.

Also, given that this guy only helps Undead, perhaps another effect can be added to the power. At the moment, I am having trouble coming up with something, but I'm thinking order marker removal, extra wound, or even perhaps a Zombies Rise Again type of power, where the figrue destroyed be the ranged counter strike turns into an Undead squad figure you control.

You see, in the actual D&D game, you could give the figure the weakened condition or have some similar effect. That's harder to emulate in Heroscape without tokens, except through order marker removal. I'll let you know if I have any better ideas.

[dok]

You might want to change the power name to Necrotic Evil Eye Protection.Yeah, probably. It's not a big deal either way but given that I have the space I may as well stay consistent.

You might also want to change "normal attack from a non-adjacent attacking figure" to "normal attack from a non-adjacent figure," just for brevity.I agree that's how I would phrase it if I were drawing this power up, but I cribbed the language directly from Gurei-Oni's EE Defense and Torin's EE Protection. I'm not sure why they doubled up on the attack language, but I expect there was some reason, so I don't want to change it unless I need the space.

Also, given that this guy only helps Undead, perhaps another effect can be added to the power. At the moment, I am having trouble coming up with something, but I'm thinking order marker removal, extra wound, or even perhaps a Zombies Rise Again type of power, where the figrue destroyed be the ranged counter strike turns into an Undead squad figure you control.I'm inclined to stay away from a ZRA-type power, but I'm open to the others.

[dok]

Nobody's going to accuse me of thinking out of the box on this one:

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/major_x23_892475_original.jpg

The figure is the Iron Golem Juggernaut from the latest D&D Miniature release, which is under $2 (http://www.abprices.com/D/7525/iron-golem-juggernaut) from several vendors. It is extremely easy to detach from its base (you don't even need a knife or sandpaper... just dip in boiling water and pull) and it looks perfect on a narrow peanut base.

Visually, I think this guy works as a soulborg. He has a very similar look to Q10.

Obviously both powers are a straight re-tread of powers from existing figures, but I like the way it plays.

[Taeblewalker]

I agree that it looks like it plays very nicely, though other than the look, I really can't see why he should be a Soulborg rather than a Golem. He looks golemy enough, IMO, and really doesn't seem to have any powers that scream servo units.

[dok]

I agree that it looks like it plays very nicely, though other than the look, I really can't see why he should be a Soulborg rather than a Golem. He looks golemy enough, IMO, and really doesn't seem to have any powers that scream servo units.There's no real reason except that I've got a bias towards continuing themes from original worlds Heroscape over D&D Heroscape. Well, that, and I'm digging playing this guy with three or four Hoplitrons (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1288751#post1288751).

[Taeblewalker]

I like your aesthetic. I can't help but feel like he needs something robotic. At least Cyberclaw is futuristic, and of course the guns of the other Majors are as well. I can't think of anything useful at the moment, though.

[dok]

Here's a figure you can add for some extra flavor alongside obsidian guards:

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/obsidian_champion_original.jpg

The figure is the magma brute, which is under $2 (http://www.abprices.com/D/2160/magma-brute) at several sellers.

This doesn't really elevate the Obsidian Guards to competitiveness on most maps, but it does give them a bit more of a fighting chance. The Obsidian Champion is a decent filler hero, too, with his ability to deliver damage passively through adjacency.

[dok]

Here's one that I think might spark some discussion. Ever since I put out the Zettian infantry, I've been playing with various ways that common squads can give or get extra life to and from other figures. We've seen various versions of "cavalry become infantry after death" mentioned in a few different places - killercactus's skeleton cavalry, chaoserver's Dwarven cavalry, and a suggestion on the C3V thread.

Anyway, without further ado, the Templar infantry:

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/templar_infantry_881647_original.jpg

The figures are a "Man at Arms" and two "Zhent" figures from the Lords of Madness release. I'm not a huge fan of any of these sculpts for this task, to be honest, but for the time being I'm primarily focused on gameplay.

I definitely think the dismounted knight power brings the Templar Cavalry into playability. Not only can you keep them on the battlefield much longer by using the sort of generalized expendable rabble power here, but you basically get a free squad of Templar infantry with the purchase of a squad of Templar Cavalry. 70 point cavalry sounds pretty darn cheap, even if they only have 3 defense and 3 attacks per OM and they suck up all your startzone hexes.

If you think about it too hard, the "Dismounted Knight" and "Knight's Steed" powers basically let you pick whether it's the horse or the rider (or an adjacent infantryman) who gets killed, depending on what's most convenient. It's not terribly realistic. I had toyed with a version that involved a d20 to decide which death mechanic you were allowed to use, but it got really complicated really fast, and it felt like I was nerfing a cool power for no good reason.

I'm toying with letting these guys bond with Dupuis. Thoughts?

I actually have still another variant of this concept that I wanted to use here, but it fell by the wayside due to space restrictions on the card. I actually have it implemented on cards for skeleton cavalry and infantry, but I'm going to hold it back until I figure out whether there's a usable set of skeleton cavalry models out there.

I have still another idea along these lines, but for a VERY different figure, that I will be releasing once I can figure out the proper price point. It's a very different mechanic but I like it a lot.

[Taeblewalker]

This looks like you put a great deal of thought into it. Kudos! I would not be surprised if they are nicely balanced against competitive armies. I wonder if they really need the bonding, though.

[quozl]

Very nice! They do seem like they'd be worth more than 50 though.

[dok]

This looks like you put a great deal of thought into it. Kudos! I would not be surprised if they are nicely balanced against competitive armies. I wonder if they really need the bonding, though.Perhaps I should raise the move to 5 and drop the bonding? If they don't get to bond with Gilbert they probably need that extra move.

Very nice! They do seem like they'd be worth more than 50 though.I break down the question of their value two ways - their value when played alone (or just with a champion), and how good they make the cavalry.

On the first point, I think it's clear they're not overpowered. Compared to Knights of Weston, they are slightly cheaper per figure (16.7 versus 17.5), but they get one less point of defense and one less activation per OM. Righteous smite is probably better than coward's reward, but still, that's a blowout in favor of the KoW.

On the second point, it's much harder to figure. The "expendable rabble" variant is nice, for sure, but probably not overpowered. The big one, the one that I'm not totally sure on yet, is whether the Templar Cav are too good if you get a free squad of Templar Infantry with each purchase of a squad of cavalry. My suspicion is no, but it's definitely debatable.

[Taeblewalker]

The cavalry and groks are both over-costed. Try it with Move 5 and no bonding.

[dok]

I dropped the bonding, upped the move to 5, and split the power in two for clarity. More testing is needed, but I'm pretty confident this isn't overpowered.

[dok]

Here's a much more straightforward figure:

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/pugilitron_original.jpg

The mini is the "Hammerer" mini from the Blood War release. I recycled the classic cyberclaw power, and used the wyrmling-style "melee soulborg bonding" that I also used on the Hoplitron (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1288751#post1288751). Armies with a mix of Hoplitrons and Pugilitrons with a Zettian Marauder thrown in are fun - not top tier, but very fun.

[Taeblewalker]

The Pugilitron seems very nice. I wonder if his Attack and Defense are a bit much for 30 points - in other words, are two of him, taking a turn together, worth no more than 3 Gladiatrons with Attack 2 and Defense 3-4?

I would consider 35 points, though you may have play-tested him already.

[Caric]

Hey Dok,
Great customs! Just was wondering if Crag has been updated to the point where your satisfied with his stats and if he's been playtested. I wanted to update my card of him. Thanks and keep up the great work!

[dok]

Caric, at this point I'm satisfied with there Crag is. That's not to say that additional testing couldn't suggest that he should have more/fewer life or cost more/fewer points or that the range on his aura should go up or down. But I don't expect to make any of those changes.

The Pugilitron seems very nice. I wonder if his Attack and Defense are a bit much for 30 points - in other words, are two of him, taking a turn together, worth no more than 3 Gladiatrons with Attack 2 and Defense 3-4?

I would consider 35 points, though you may have play-tested him already.
I've tested a bit, but 30 versus 35 was where I was floating it. I eventually decided on 30. The comparison to Gladiatrons is well-taken, but much of their value is tied up in their ability to act as a moving screen for the Blastarons without taking any OMs.

I think it's reasonable to also compare these guys (and the Hoplitron) to Wyrmlings and to the other 2-man squads. Wyrmlings are obviously much less tough, but they are ranged flyers in stead of walking melee, so that's to be expected. Mezzos are slightly tougher with their effective 2 life per figure, and have range. Death Knights are just as tough and are only slightly less effective attacking. They give up cyberclaw for a third activation.

[dok]

Here's a figure that offers a new twist on the steamroller:

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/minotaur_pit_fighter_original.jpg

The figure is the Savage Minotaur from Savage Encounters, which is cheap and widely available (http://www.abprices.com/D/3672/savage-minotaur). I re-mounted it on a standard classic medium base without any trouble.

What makes this figure interesting is that he works with Spartacus's power, but cannot bond with the Capuans. Playing with this guy gives the steamroller some OM management decisions, as you can mix the Minotaur in with the squad activations.

[Taeblewalker]

I love everything about this guy, except that you still need a pretty good-sized steamroller army (600+ points) to really add him in. Spartacus plus 3 Capuans is 410 points, and even without Crixus, adding the minotaur brings you up to 540. With just two squads of Capuans, you are back at 470, but that's a pretty small army.

Nonetheless, the Gladiator thing is just icing on the cake. He's a great unit, and well though out.

[Filthy the Clown]

Pretty cool! He is even dressed like a Gladiator, which is rather hard to find.
He offers a Gladiator-themed counter of sorts to auto-wounders such as Grimnak and Braxas. Team him up with Priscus (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=7549&original=1), and you have some excellent special attacks to use on screens. Priscus can also boost his regular attack to 6...Pretty powerful, provided that you can keep everyone in Priscus' aura. However, with 3 Defense for the Pit Fighter and other Capuans, you can still fall fairly easily to range.

A variant on the Spartacus Steamroller:
Priscus 110
Pit Fighter 130
Capuans x 3 210
MW 50
15 spaces, 500 points
Either lead or cleanup with the MW, depending on what you are facing (and Gladiator attrition).

[dok]

Pretty cool! He is even dressed like a Gladiator, which is rather hard to find.Yeah, that was the inspiration, of course. I played with a bunch of different concepts for this figure (I've had him for a while) but once I hit upon the non-human Gladiator Hero, I knew I was set.

He offers a Gladiator-themed counter of sorts to auto-wounders such as Grimnak and Braxas.Yep, he's nice in that role, as well as giving you a special attack.

He's also playable just as a non-bonding hero in whatever army. As Taeblewalker said, the Gladiator synergy is a bonus.

Team him up with Priscus (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=7549&original=1), and you have some excellent special attacks to use on screens. Priscus can also boost his regular attack to 6...Pretty powerful, provided that you can keep everyone in Priscus' aura. However, with 3 Defense for the Pit Fighter and other Capuans, you can still fall fairly easily to range.

As you imply, I think the MPF craves the extra defense more than the extra offense. Conversely, Priscus's attack bonus is better when you can potentially use it three times in a turn. I'd argue that Priscus is probably best with a bunch of Capuans, while MPF is better with Spartacus... or just as a standalone hero with whatever else you want to have in your army. It would be interesting to try them together, though, especially in a heroes-only environment...

90 Crixus
110 Priscus
130 MPF
200 Spartacus
530

Hello, 7 attack...

[Super Bogue]

Here's a figure that offers a new twist on the steamroller:

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/minotaur_pit_fighter_original.jpg

The figure is the Savage Minotaur from Savage Encounters, which is cheap and widely available (http://www.abprices.com/D/3672/savage-minotaur). I re-mounted it on a standard classic medium base without any trouble.

What makes this figure interesting is that he works with Spartacus's power, but cannot bond with the Capuans. Playing with this guy gives the steamroller some OM management decisions, as you can mix the Minotaur in with the squad activations.

I love what you have done here. I am planning on using the same figure as a hero for Aquilla. I am also planning a Minotaur squad with the Minotaur Warrior from Demonweb, Minotaur Thug from Legendary Evils, and Minotaur Mangler from Lords of Madness. This figure is going to be the hero leading the unique squad. But after seeing you card I might to rethink my plan. Do you mind if I incorporate the Gore Special Attack?

[dok]

Do you mind if I incorporate the Gore Special Attack?Not at all. Share and share alike. Once I post a card, all of its ideas are public domain as far as I'm concerned.

[ZBeeblebrox]

dok I love that Minotaur!! Nice job.

[Dad_Scaper]

Well done on the Minotaur, dok. I like that you did a Tor Kul Na-like stunt. You took a theme with a lot going on and, instead of trying to do a bunch of different things with it in the text box, you did one thing really well.

Looks good to me.

[dok]

Here's my first figure making use of an unpainted miniature... sort of.

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/toknar_original.jpg

Some will recognize this as the "Huge Red Dragon" from the Giants of Legend series. Given the price (http://www.abprices.com/D/1817/huge-red-dragon) of that fig, buying it and rebasing/repainting for Heroscape had been pretty much out of the question. However, the new "Wrath of Ashardalon" game features the big fella in unpainted glory. Given that this guy matches the scale of the "big 5" dragons fairly well (I'll post side-by-sides when I have the mini in hand), and given that there's really no reasonable blue dragon option that's properly scaled, prepainted, and inexpensive, I figures this was the time to go for the unpainted option.

The powers on this guy were quite straightforward, I thought. Playtesting was a bit tricky, but it seems pretty clear to me that this power is more versatile than Nilfheim's, so I gave him a 20 point bump despite having a lower attack value.

[dok]

Original post updated to include all the figures I currently consider polished.

[dok]

Gradually working through my backlog. With these two figures finally released, I've only got a handful of figures that I've been working on that I haven't published yet.

First, the Deepwater Warrior:
http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/deepwater_warrior_original.jpg
The figure is the "Water Archon Shoal Reaver" from the Lords of Madness release, which is pretty cheap and widely available (http://www.abprices.com/D/7556/water-archon-shoal-reaver). This figure is fairly in line with the other elementals in terms of power (melee with water-only stealth dodge is an interesting combo), and can be used with Kurrok. I've also offered another twist, though, as this figure can bond on its own, provided you're willing to go with two activations in stead of three. The Aquilla/Jandar restriction means no firestorms, but it allows you to dust off some Greater Ice Elementals.

Another bonding option for that figure is this guy:
http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/reilor_original.jpg
The figure is the Astral Giant, also from the Lords of Madness release. The figure is on a large base and is practically bonded to that base. The simplest approach is to just cut the edge off of the base with a pair of scissors; the base can easily be trimmed down to the size of a DW9k base or smaller.

I struggled a bit with pricing this one, because he really is a niche/cleanup figure most of the time. But he's a fun figure, and in the right spot he can really shine.

[dok]

Auggie has requested that there be no feedback discussion of prospective figures in his evaluation threads, but I would like to encourage anyone who has any substantive thoughts on the figures to comment here.

The Zombie Hulk has already received a ton of feedback in the SoV thread and elsewhere. I will say that I think it's probably slightly overpriced in a double-blind prebuilt tournament environment, but I'm very happy with it overall.

Ymir has gotten a lot less feedback, so I'm more interested in that one. Here is Auggie's template again:
Please read carefully before scoring.
The purpose of this thread is not to debate powers or discuss the card in questions. PLEASE, just post your score without explanations. As the creater of the card, if you wish discussion before submission make your own thread.
Note that this score is not designed to be as stringent as SoV or C3V and is more for casual play so keep that in mind while rating.

Scoring will be open for 2 weeks.

Please follow format and make posts look like this......

A) Balance of figure (score up to 70 points.)
B) Clarity of card and powers (up to 20 points)
C) Card “polish” how good the card looks overall (10 points )
Total points = (A+B+C)

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/ymir_730406_original.jpgI feel pretty good about the clarity and polish of this card. The powers are both based on existing powers (Blizzard Winds is a cross between Swirling Vortex and Ice Cold; Great Axe is a slight modification of Reach) and bootstrap on that language.

The balance of a figure like this is tricky. He's a bit reminiscent of Jotun in that he hits really hard but is going to struggle against any commons, especially ranged ones. Unlike Jotun, he has no way to hit multiple figures in an activation. However, blizzard winds is a really dominant power against small/medium melee - particularly small/medium melee heroes. And it also gives this figure some use as a blocker. All in all, he has some metagame usefulness, even though he's certainly not an elite figure.

[Auggest]

Heya Doc,
The evaluation system I set up is free for anyone to use for any custom if they want. The way I'm doing it is after a custom is finished (and that's key) and submitted to me I'll then put it up and have it scored by the community at large. This really is very subjective and should be taken very loosely to be sure. Still I think a custom with a score of 30 vs. one with 75 is meaningful. The real gauge will be SoV and C3V and those stamps of approval should rightfully carry much greater weight.

Even though I've started selling some of your customs I just listed those 2 (Yimr and Zombie Hulk) to establish a kinda baseline and for consistancy sake. I plan on adding to the backs of the cards the final score to help people make informed choices.

Finally, and I suppose I should establish this in another post but I don't want people to get sick of me making endless posts, I plan on awarding the bounties near the begining of each month for the previous month. Your 3 customs are the only ones I have listed thus far and have done much better than I expected. I listed them in on my site on Friday and on ebay as well on Friday. I put up only 2 of each on ebay and 5 on the normal site. The ebay ones sold out of the zombies and Ymir within a day! I'll be listing more shortly. On the prostore site I've sold 4 more (2 zombies and one each of Yirm and Iron Golem).

So..... a big Congrats at being the first to receive a bounty!!! Your account now has a credit of $6 added to it.

......Andrew (aka Auggie)

[ZBeeblebrox]

Congrats dok!!

[dok]

The evaluation system I set up is free for anyone to use for any custom if they want. The way I'm doing it is after a custom is finished (and that's key) and submitted to me I'll then put it up and have it scored by the community at large. This really is very subjective and should be taken very loosely to be sure. Still I think a custom with a score of 30 vs. one with 75 is meaningful. The real gauge will be SoV and C3V and those stamps of approval should rightfully carry much greater weight.I agree; it's very subjective, at least unless the rater has done some testing or some strong numerical theoryscaping. I'm not really that worried about getting high or low ratings, but I always appreciate more feedback.

Your 3 customs are the only ones I have listed thus far and have done much better than I expected. I listed them in on my site on Friday and on ebay as well on Friday. I put up only 2 of each on ebay and 5 on the normal site. The ebay ones sold out of the zombies and Ymir within a day! I'll be listing more shortly. On the prostore site I've sold 4 more (2 zombies and one each of Yirm and Iron Golem).

So..... a big Congrats at being the first to receive a bounty!!! Your account now has a credit of $6 added to it.:excited:

Awesome, thanks.

[chaoserver]

While I like Ymir a lot, he does not match the pricing for an 8 attack figure. Jotun is much worse while he also costs more. For less points he gets nearly identical stats, a fairly consistent range of 2, and another decent ability.

The score more reflects how I feel about a unit that overtly replaces another. Don't get me wrong, I do like him, but he needs to be more in his own niche. For example the dragons are all similarly costed, for the most part, but never particularly dwarf another(universally I mean, obviously in specific situations some thrive), whereas this unit is overtly superior to Jotun in every situation but a lava map, and even then he may not justify the extra points.

I understand Jotun is not considered a competitive unit, but making any units that outclasses another specific unit is always a step towards a power creep. Hope this helps you not feel hated on, since I really do think the unit is neat!

[A_Train]

I'm great at pricing customs, but Ymir feels under priced to me. His stats are equal to Jotun in most ways, with the exception of his inability to target more than one figure at a time. He can however clog up melee units and attack them before they can engage him.

I feel that while his specials are different from Jotun's, they should come out to about the same price area.

Just my opinion.

[Darkmage7a]

To those of you who are putting up 30's and 35's for balance, I'd appreciate concrete feedback here (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1354092#post1354092). As it stands I don't even know which way you think the figure is unbalanced.

First off let me get my personal biases out of the way.
For my own preferences I dislike using figures with bases larger than the one used by an Ice Troll Beserker.
Also, I find it difficult to properly cost out exceptionally large or high point value figures and generally stay away from them. There just isn't enough official figures (non-marvel) in the >150pt category to really compare to. Often the price point of the existing figures in that range don't sit well either and becomes a hot debate topic. IE: Taelord, Q9, Jotun attract a lot of contention.
Finally, I don't like the idea of another figure that difficult to fight using melee but horribly vulnerable to ranged. It promotes the use of ranged figures.

So that being said, you have squished two abilities into one. Swirling Vortex, and Ice Cold. That in itself is not a problem, just rather interesting and flavorful. But when you combine that with a modified version of Reach it gets me worried. It seems like a very powerful combination to me. Too powerful.

I'm a bit conservative when it come to power creep and I try to avoid it when possible. And, I agree with the others comments when comparing it to Jotun. Aside from comparison to similar figures I typically ask two questions; Is this figure fun to play? Is this figure fun to play against? All too often I get a yes to former and a resounding NO to the latter.

Well, the final kicker, I know you'll hate hearing this. I haven't playtested it. So it's still quite possible that all these things I've just said are from a terribly skewed perspective. What I've done here is try to explain my thought process for why I gave it the score I choose as honestly as possible. I hope you can find something useful in here, from time to time my mind is a fuzzy place that nobody should visit. :oops:

[flameslayer93]

I see nothing really "wrong" with Ymir. The biggest thing I don't like is that he mixes 2 powers into one without it being a special attack. Though not entirely a bad thing, it does mess with clarity a little bit(in that a newer player who sees him may begin to wonder: "How the heck does this power work?"). I find it a tad difficult to also say he's perfect however, mainly because he has a margin of error that players can utilize.

Of course this is only theoryscape, but he could be used to say move back to the edge of each "line" of stopped enemies and attack them one at a time.

And naturally, he also makes rangeScape and squadScape even more power IMHO.

Cheers.

[dok]

I'm great at pricing customsA little big for your britches, eh? ;)

I keed, I keed.

OK, serious stuff, starting with the easy one.

For my own preferences I dislike using figures with bases larger than the one used by an Ice Troll Beserker. Ymir is not a single-spaced figure and can't fit on a single space. He is a double-spaced figure. There are two options with Ymir:


Re-base onto a large peanut, which I'm sure would look fantastic.
Get out your wire cutters and cut the circular base into a truncated peanut. I affectionately call this base the "ghetto peanut". I should take a picture of this (and the Earth Titan, and a couple other figures where I've used this approach) and post it sometime. It's not perfect aesthetically, but it's absolutely fine from a gameplay perspective.The figure is perfectly well-balanced on a double-spaced base.

OK, on to the more substantive objection:

While I like Ymir a lot, he does not match the pricing for an 8 attack figure. Jotun is much worse while he also costs more. For less points he gets nearly identical stats, a fairly consistent range of 2, and another decent ability.

The score more reflects how I feel about a unit that overtly replaces another. Don't get me wrong, I do like him, but he needs to be more in his own niche. For example the dragons are all similarly costed, for the most part, but never particularly dwarf another(universally I mean, obviously in specific situations some thrive), whereas this unit is overtly superior to Jotun in every situation but a lava map, and even then he may not justify the extra points.

His stats are equal to Jotun in most ways, with the exception of his inability to target more than one figure at a time. He can however clog up melee units and attack them before they can engage him.

I feel that while his specials are different from Jotun's, they should come out to about the same price area.

Just my opinion.It's interesting that A_Train thinks the figure is roughly equal to Jotun, while chaoserver thinks this figure is almost uniformly superior. For my part, I think Ymir's specials are not really stronger than Jotun's. Being able to hit multiple figures in one activation is huge in the metagame; Jotun can do that pretty consistently with the throw/wild swing mechanics, while Ymir can't.

Anyway, persuant to Jotun...

I feel that while his specials are different from Jotun's, they should come out to about the same price area.

I understand Jotun is not considered a competitive unit, but making any units that outclasses another specific unit is always a step towards a power creep.I agree that pricing him 35 lower than Jotun is going to make him better than Jotun. As I've said a couple times, I'm usually shooting for B+ when I price a figure. Ymir is probably on the low end of that range, and might only be a B. But still, yes, that's a heck of a lot better than a flat C, which is what Jotun is.

To me, that's not really power creep; I'm not trying to create another Jotun. He's better than Jotun, and has the same base stats, but that doesn't make him overpowered.

To me, this is sort of like comparing Horned Skull Brutes to Obsidian Guards. Sure, HSBs have the same base stats (except better move) and are 25 points cheaper. Outside of a lava map, the choice is a no-brainer. But that doesn't mean HSBs are power creep. It just means that Obsidian Guards don't do well at tournaments.

I don't like the idea of another figure that difficult to fight using melee but horribly vulnerable to ranged. It promotes the use of ranged figures.The matchups of Ymir aren't quite that simple. He owns opposing heroes pretty hard, be they ranged or melee. Put him up against Q9 and he wins 80% of the time. But he's pretty weak against squads, even melee squads. Put him up against 7 Sacred Band, and even if we assume he gets first attack and the SB only get 3 attacks per turn after that (both safe assumptions thanks to Blizzard Winds), the SB still come out on top a comfortable majority of the time. He can be pretty effective backing away in endgame, but really, if you save 190 points for endgame, it should do pretty well.

Hope this helps you not feel hated on, since I really do think the unit is neat!Being "hated on" does not describe my feelings at all. I'm happy to have the feedback, and enjoy the discussion. Thanks for posting, all of you.

[chaoserver]

Glad to hear back from you and I can understand your sentiments on the matter.

When I say power creep it doesn't mean breaking the game in this case, it means more directly making a unit obsolete, which Ymir does even if you consider him equal to Jotun(and he may be equal, I haven't playtested him).

For example if I made a unit called " Charos V2" and he had no different synergies, was 170 points, same stats, and had an ability of very similar usefulness as counterstrike, it would be safe to say there would be no reason to take Charos, and hypothetically if this trend continued many units would be replaced. Your example of HSB's and our junky magma friends is a good one, but the difference in their abilities is extreme, seeing as they technically can excel if the map is lava.

My recommendation would be dropping his atk to 7 and maybe toying with the powers if you wanted to make them more unique to really differentiate him from Jotun totally. For example if he could have a range of 6 but only if he was attacking a figure on spot of ice(including those he creates). Or really any ability that would be used in far different scenarios as Jotun.

[quozl]

Huh. Jotun seems better to me, which is why I thought dok priced Ymir less. One more move plus Throw plus Wild Swing all in the same turn? That's worth 35 points more than Reach and Blizzard Winds to me.

[Darkmage7a]

Ymir is not a single-spaced figure and can't fit on a single space. He is a double-spaced figure. There are two options with Ymir:

1. Re-base onto a large peanut, which I'm sure would look fantastic.
2. Get out your wire cutters and cut the circular base into a truncated peanut. I affectionately call this base the "ghetto peanut". I should take a picture of this (and the Earth Titan, and a couple other figures where I've used this approach) and post it sometime. It's not perfect aesthetically, but it's absolutely fine from a gameplay perspective.
Option 1 doesn't really appeal to me since I'm not interested in stripping my other figures for their bases. I heard rumours of a website that will produce HS bases for you but haven't really looked into it.

Option 2 on the other hand I'm curious about. If you could produce an image I'd appreciate it. At least then I'd have a better idea of what kind of mess I'd be getting into before I go chopping up my figs.

Thanks Dok.

[Frylock]

But at the same time, you don't draft Jotun because of his Throw or Wild Swing. You draft him because of his giant-*** attack. This guy has the same attack, and will get to use it more often (thanks to Reach). The other powers on both cards are bonuses. While Jotun's bonuses might be slightly better, they don't make me want to play him over this guy. I don't know if this is helpful, but it's just my :2cents:.

[Taeblewalker]

Ymir seems fine to me. He never gets to attack more than once, and his powers simply give him a chance to stave off attackers long enough to at least get a swipe at them. Given his lower Move and Jotun's ability to both throw and use Wild Swing, squads should own him much more often than they own Jotun. Add to that the fact that Jotun can overcome Counter Strike and Ymir can't, and you have no real contest. Jotun rocks Ymir.

[dok]

I'm enjoying the discussion, folks. I'll just say again that my goal was to make a "B" level figure with interesting gameplay and good flavor, as opposed to worrying about how he compared to Jotun.

Ymir is not a single-spaced figure and can't fit on a single space. He is a double-spaced figure. There are two options with Ymir:

1. Re-base onto a large peanut, which I'm sure would look fantastic.
2. Get out your wire cutters and cut the circular base into a truncated peanut. I affectionately call this base the "ghetto peanut". I should take a picture of this (and the Earth Titan, and a couple other figures where I've used this approach) and post it sometime. It's not perfect aesthetically, but it's absolutely fine from a gameplay perspective.
Option 1 doesn't really appeal to me since I'm not interested in stripping my other figures for their bases. I heard rumours of a website that will produce HS bases for you but haven't really looked into it.The rumors are true (http://stores.ebay.com/Yodajunkiedesigns/_i.html?_nkw=bases&submit=Search&_sid=26383126)! He can take a while to get an order out to you, but the quality is very good.

Option 2 on the other hand I'm curious about. If you could produce an image I'd appreciate it. At least then I'd have a better idea of what kind of mess I'd be getting into before I go chopping up my figs.
This is a terrible picture, but it gives you an idea:

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/bases_original.jpg

The "Iron Golem Juggernaut" is rebased onto one of the peanuts I got from Yoda. Ymir is just trimmed down with wire cutters and a piece of sand paper. He fits in a 2-hex hole as currently trimmed, but I'd have to trim a bit more to make a "letter of the rules" legal base. I emphasize again that the figure is very stable despite all the base material I've trimmed off.

[chaoserver]

Ymir is not a single-spaced figure and can't fit on a single space. He is a double-spaced figure. There are two options with Ymir:

1. Re-base onto a large peanut, which I'm sure would look fantastic.
2. Get out your wire cutters and cut the circular base into a truncated peanut. I affectionately call this base the "ghetto peanut". I should take a picture of this (and the Earth Titan, and a couple other figures where I've used this approach) and post it sometime. It's not perfect aesthetically, but it's absolutely fine from a gameplay perspective.
Option 1 doesn't really appeal to me since I'm not interested in stripping my other figures for their bases. I heard rumours of a website that will produce HS bases for you but haven't really looked into it.

Option 2 on the other hand I'm curious about. If you could produce an image I'd appreciate it. At least then I'd have a better idea of what kind of mess I'd be getting into before I go chopping up my figs.

Thanks Dok.

I recommend you check out Ebay, there is a seller there who has sold me many single and peanut bases for my customs, and all it takes is some crazy glue to get them sticking like an official unit.

[Devil's Advocate]

Jotun overall is better. Being able to kill multiple figures in 1 OM is perhaps the single biggest key to winning (unless the opponent has an unusual, Hero centric army).

I dislike the figure conceptually since if there is 1 thing Heroscape does not need more of it is expensive heroes than can only kill 1 figure per turn.

[Tolamos]

Here are my thoughts:
I believe that the ballance of Ymir is off. 10 points higher and I believe that he would be better ballanced. I also question the fact that he can freeze water 2 spaces away. This could cause problems.

However, I cant help but compare him to Jotun. Honestly, I think that the two of them are very close. There is one thing though that would make me choose Jotun over him, and that is the ability to toss figures across the map.

So on that note, in order to insure that I myself would consider drafting him, I think it would be fine to keep him at that cost, even though it makes him a little on the powerful side. My one request is that you take another look at the water freezing thing.

Over all, he is a good figure, and I am liking him more the more I look at him.



p.s. Ymir vs Jotun = Yimir 2 - Jotun 3 - out of 5 tests.

[dok]

p.s. Ymir vs Jotun = Yimir 2 - Jotun 3 - out of 5 tests.Head to head, Ymir should win a slight majority of the time. Ymir's reach is the only relevant power head-to-head. It should be pretty even though.

[dok]

Just a couple more thoughts on some things people have brought up:I don't like the idea of another figure that difficult to fight using melee but horribly vulnerable to ranged. It promotes the use of ranged figures.While I disputed that characterization overall (I think Ymir is more anti-hero than anti-melee), the "there's another figure that's better against melee than range" phenomenon is one worth looking at. I remember voicing concern about this back during the D1 previews (ironically, just before the Phantom Knight preview). The thing is that it's very natural for powers to work better against figures that are forced to come to you to do damage. As I noted in this discussion (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1293960#post1293960) with killercactus, you usually have to give a figure explicitly anti-range powers in order to make it stronger against range than melee.

My point is just that, if you make "powers work equally well against ranged commons as other figures" a standard you judge figures by, you will find that a lot of figures fall short.

Jotun overall is better. Being able to kill multiple figures in 1 OM is perhaps the single biggest key to winning (unless the opponent has an unusual, Hero centric army).

I dislike the figure conceptually since if there is 1 thing Heroscape does not need more of it is expensive heroes than can only kill 1 figure per turn.It's funny you should say that. I've released, by my count, 26 custom cards in my current spurt of custom figure creation. Ymir is one of only two (this (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/showimage.php?i=8005&c=member&imageuser=6096) is the other, which is probably the weakest figure power-ranking-wise that I've made) that can't attack multiple times per OM (either via multiple attacks on the card or some form of bonding).

I disagree with the notion that every figure has to have a way to achieve multiple attacks. I agree that Ymir is one of the weaker figures I've made - like I said, I'm shooting for high B+ most of the time and this one is a bit short of that. Still, this figure has some cool uses even in a double-blind prebuilt environment.

[Killometer]

I'm going to stay out of the pricing discussion, since Ymir's interesting combination of powers makes him difficult to gauge at a glance and I generally agree with your judgement on pricing your customs (I know you do your homework), but I figure I'll just drop my one minor quibble-Great Axe seems like an unnessecary complication of Reach to me. I understand your reasoning thematically and mechanically, but I'd just as soon see it all based off the target's base. Not a big deal, just my :2cents:. Overall, he looks like a fun units to field (less fun to face, though).

[Agent Minivann]

I think the biggest problems I have with Ymir is the movement blocking ability that leaves opposing figures a sitting duck for those 8 attack dice. I think he ought to be nerfed somehow if he stays at the same cost. Either a lower attack, the blizzard winds only stop movement on ice, or movement within the 2 spaces costs more. I love the theme of this guy, but that movement block plus the reliable range 2 attack 8 is pretty formidable against melee units.

[Taeblewalker]

I don't think the movement block will last hold back figures very long at all. It never seems to let the Air Elemental stop an incoming army for long.

[Killometer]

But the Air Elemental doesn't have any Range. Ymir can take a step back and attack, and take a step back and attack, while his opponent can only take a step forward and, um, sit there.

[robbdaman]

The things I really don't like about Ymir is how similar in stat he is to Jotun and the fact that his Great Axe ability requires counting of hex height which I don't feel is something I'd like to see unless it is being done for ladders and determining extreme height. Beyond that he seems reasonably balanced.

[wriggz]

Jotun overall is better. Being able to kill multiple figures in 1 OM is perhaps the single biggest key to winning (unless the opponent has an unusual, Hero centric army).

I dislike the figure conceptually since if there is 1 thing Heroscape does not need more of it is expensive heroes than can only kill 1 figure per turn.

It is funny how often you make a unit that has muliple attacks and don't think about it. Sometimes it is nice to have a heavy hitter and nothing else.

I think Krug is an excellence figure in this regard. Sure he can attack 2 figures, but is often attacking the same figure twice. This is something I have been thinking about with my own customs.

[Jonny Jon]

But the Air Elemental doesn't have any Range. Ymir can take a step back and attack, and take a step back and attack, while his opponent can only take a step forward and, um, sit there.

this thought occured to me too. I actually thought Ymir was fine at 190 points until I figured out he could do this. He is better than jotun if one uses this tactic. The only threat to ymir is range.

ymir kills melee squads better than jotun
ymir can reach things on elevation that 5 move has limited other melee from attacking
ymir is very slightly better than jotun 1v1 (because of reach)
jotun can throw smalls/mediums which doesn't really matter when you factor in ymir's blizzard wind and reach; jotun may kill faster, but ymir can kill unscathed if there is any ground to give
jotun will be able to kill ranged squads faster
ymir will probably be able to kill all hero's slightly faster (unless they can be thrown)

you have to up Ymir's cost. With the ability to give ground and attack, he's flat better than jotun (in my theory)
ymir will take more skill to use effectively though

[Jonny Jon]

maybe a solution would be to only let him use "reach" if he did not move this turn.

[Taeblewalker]

maybe a solution would be to only let him use "reach" if he did not move this turn.

Nice idea. 8)

[Darkmage7a]

maybe a solution would be to only let him use "reach" if he did not move this turn.

Nice idea. 8)Seconded.
As his a solid unit like Siege can't touch this guy just because Ymir knows how to walk in a circle. While some some people may find that comical, others may find it frustrating and unfair. It would definitely be a step in the right direction. Ymir would still get in the first hit, but at least it wouldn't happen an indefinite number of times.

:2cents:
~DM7A

[dok]

The things I really don't like about Ymir is how similar in stat he is to JotunThe similarities are largely superficial. They are both Giants and they have very similar stat lines, but their different powers make them play quite differently.

Plenty of figures have extremely similar stat lines, yet aren't compared to one another. Sir Hawthorne and Zelrig have stat lines that are just as similar as Jotun's and Ymir's. Emirroon and Parmenio have identical stat lines. This isn't an issue.

[Ymir's] Great Axe ability requires counting of hex height which I don't feel is something I'd like to see unless it is being done for ladders and determining extreme height. You realize that very similar language is already used on the cards of the Fen Hydra and the Wolves of Badru, right?

He is better than jotun if one uses this tactic. The only threat to ymir is range.I strongly dispute that melee squads can't bring him down. I tested this. Yes, if it comes down to all-melee, all-small/medium in endgame, Ymir can play hit-and-run for a few turns by backing up and reaching. But any decent amount of squads (read: anything that is close to his point total) will be able to box Ymir in and close in from multiple sides. Remember, he can only kill one figure per turn.

If you doubt this, then I suggest trying Ymir versus 10 knights or 10 dwarves or 11 dividers or whatever else you like. I tested this. The squads win consistently.

Yes, Ymir will easily dispose of scattered melee that doesn't match his points in endgame. Why is this a bad thing? He costs 190 points after all; if you hold him in reserve he ought to be formidable.

ymir kills melee squads better than jotun
ymir can reach things on elevation that 5 move has limited other melee from attacking
ymir is very slightly better than jotun 1v1 (because of reach)
jotun can throw smalls/mediums which doesn't really matter when you factor in ymir's blizzard wind and reach; jotun may kill faster, but ymir can kill unscathed if there is any ground to give
jotun will be able to kill ranged squads faster
ymir will probably be able to kill all hero's slightly faster (unless they can be thrown)I dispute some of these, but I think the take-home message here is that they are quite different. Which is all that matters. If I made a figure that was identical to Jotun but cheaper, then that would feel like a card errata, but I don't think I've done that at all.

you have to up Ymir's cost. With the ability to give ground and attack, he's flat better than jotun (in my theory)I'm not trying to price Ymir against Jotun. I'm trying to price Ymir so that he is a B+ figure. Honestly, I think he's probably more like a B figure, but I'm OK with that.

Either way, since Jotun grades out to a flat C, it's completely unsurprising that Ymir looks better in the tournament metagame.

[Taeblewalker]

maybe a solution would be to only let him use "reach" if he did not move this turn.

Nice idea. 8)Seconded.
As his a solid unit like Siege can't touch this guy just because Ymir knows how to walk in a circle. While some some people may find that comical, others may find it frustrating and unfair. It would definitely be a step in the right direction. Ymir would still get in the first hit, but at least it wouldn't happen an indefinite number of times.

:2cents:
~DM7A

:rimshot:

[dok]

maybe a solution would be to only let him use "reach" if he did not move this turn.

Nice idea. 8)Seconded.
As his a solid unit like Siege can't touch this guy just because Ymir knows how to walk in a circle. While some some people may find that comical, others may find it frustrating and unfair. It would definitely be a step in the right direction. Ymir would still get in the first hit, but at least it wouldn't happen an indefinite number of times.

:2cents:
~DM7AThis isn't a terrible idea, but I honestly don't think it's necessary. Try Marro Warriors against Siege some time. That one figure is nearly hopeless against another in endgame is not unprecedented.

[Jonny Jon]

you're right about pricing him different than jotun, that you want him to be better than a c- . But it looks like he's not only cheaper, but better too.

I haven't tested it, but I will think about it next time I get to play... but I seriously doubt anthing less than 2 squads of (4) melee in perfect positions surrounding him could even wound him.

[Darkmage7a]

maybe a solution would be to only let him use "reach" if he did not move this turn.

Nice idea. 8)Seconded.
As his a solid unit like Siege can't touch this guy just because Ymir knows how to walk in a circle. While some some people may find that comical, others may find it frustrating and unfair. It would definitely be a step in the right direction. Ymir would still get in the first hit, but at least it wouldn't happen an indefinite number of times.

:2cents:
~DM7AThis isn't a terrible idea, but I honestly don't think it's necessary. Try Marro Warriors against Siege some time. That one figure is nearly hopeless against another in endgame is not unprecedented.
Yes, Marro Warriors are very good at their job. I once had to chase them around Mole Hills (jungle version) with nothing but Krug in a tournament. Krug of course, doesn't get enough excercise and fell over of a heart attack completely unable to deal with 4 Marro Warriors running in all directions.

However, that isn't the point. I don't see your argument of (50pt, ranged squad) > (any point, melee hero) as a valid excuse or reason to produce a (X point hero) that trumps all melee heroes of size Z or smaller.

It reinforces a hierarchy of power that places ranged squads at the top. If you make a figure that is good against melee heroes thats fine. If you make a figure that shuts down melee heroes, people (like myself) will have objections to that.

I don't mean to imply that you have to go the route that Jonny Jon suggested. There is always more than one way to skin a cat. I just wanted to clarify that cutting off melee heroes is not really something helps out in terms of game balance. (At least in my opinion.)

[dok]

maybe a solution would be to only let him use "reach" if he did not move this turn.

Nice idea. 8)Seconded.
As his a solid unit like Siege can't touch this guy just because Ymir knows how to walk in a circle. While some some people may find that comical, others may find it frustrating and unfair. It would definitely be a step in the right direction. Ymir would still get in the first hit, but at least it wouldn't happen an indefinite number of times.

:2cents:
~DM7AThis isn't a terrible idea, but I honestly don't think it's necessary. Try Marro Warriors against Siege some time. That one figure is nearly hopeless against another in endgame is not unprecedented.
Yes, Marro Warriors are very good at their job. I once had to chase them around Mole Hills (jungle version) with nothing but Krug in a tournament. Krug of course, doesn't get enough excercise and fell over of a heart attack completely unable to deal with 4 Marro Warriors running in all directions.

However, that isn't the point. I don't see your argument of (50pt, ranged squad) > (any point, melee hero) as a valid excuse or reason to produce a (X point hero) that trumps all melee heroes of size Z or smaller.

It reinforces a hierarchy of power that places ranged squads at the top. If you make a figure that is good against melee heroes thats fine. If you make a figure that shuts down melee heroes, people (like myself) will have objections to that.

I don't mean to imply that you have to go the route that Jonny Jon suggested. There is always more than one way to skin a cat. I just wanted to clarify that cutting off melee heroes is not really something helps out in terms of game balance. (At least in my opinion.)I'm a bit unsure what you think the issue is here. Have you tested heroes against Ymir? His advantage is considerably less extreme than the Marro Warriors' advantage - I was simply pointing out that more extreme cases exist.

The hit-and-run thing really only applies against small/medium walking melee squad figures. Against those armies, Ymir repositions himself so that he's only within 2 spaces of one figure, kills that figure, and then repeats on the next turn. Unless the squad figures can hold up to attack, their only recourse is to surround Ymir so that he doesn't have repositioning options. In practice, this is not too hard, so as long as they have some reserves, squads can usually get attacks in (although it's often limited to one fewer than their full activation total).

Against heroes, the dynamic is quite different, because heroes can actually survive an attack by Ymir a good percentage of the time. And if they do, they move in and attack on their next turn. In other words, all Blizzard Winds + Great Axe buys Ymir against non-flying small/medium melee heroes is first strike (barring an initiative switch, which can deny even that).

Siege is in a tough spot against Ymir, but it's not really much worse than against Jotun. Jotun is faster and can usually manage first strike, too. Ymir can dictate ground with Great Axe, but Jotun can throw Siege onto low ground.

[Darkmage7a]

Against heroes, the dynamic is quite different, because heroes can actually survive an attack by Ymir a good percentage of the time. And if they do, they move in and attack on their next turn. In other words, all Blizzard Winds + Great Axe buys Ymir against non-flying small/medium melee heroes is first strike (barring an initiative switch, which can deny even that).

Siege is in a tough spot against Ymir, but it's not really much worse than against Jotun. Jotun is faster and can usually manage first strike, too. Ymir can dictate ground with Great Axe, but Jotun can throw Siege onto low ground.
Ok, it's not quite as bad as I thought it was. I'd still say Ymir has more control in determining where the battle is fought. Jotun has to engage and then make a roll. Ymir never has to risk engagement or roll a die, he just keeps walking away until he picks the sweet spot on the map. So there is a good chance he gains hieght advantage and then swings down with 9 attack. Nine attack is powerful enough to potentially reduce Siege to the accountability of a normal squad figure.

Once again, I don't really do well with custom figures over the 140-150 range, I just don't feel there is enough other official figs to compare with. Often it turns out to be too many eggs in one basket to make it worth drafting anyway. Like we said earlier, on a normal day one squad of ranged units can handle any of the figures we're talking about without much trouble.

[dok]

Here's a figure that I've allocated a fair amount of resources to recently:*

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/mallok_880779_original.jpg

The figure is the "Drider Fanglord" from the Savage Encounters release. It is very common and Auggie actually requested that someone draft a card for this mini to help him clear stock.

The figure is too big for a single-spaced hex, even with a D3 base. I've rebased mine onto a standard double-spaced base, like so:http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/drider_pic.jpgThe figure does hang out a bit in the middle, but it fits in a 2-hex hole and it doesn't really interfere with other figures getting adjacent to it. However, it's come to light that a little bit of leg reshaping allows the figure to fit on a D3 base. This is probably a better option.

Obviously, the goal here is to create a figure that's heavy on synergy and enhances the other Drow figures. Mallok is OK by himself but is really all about enhancing the Deepwyrm Drow, the Drow Chainfighter, and Estivara. The extra two points of d20 love really help those three characters, all of which have two d20 powers. (Sadly, Pelloth still stinks, but hey, 3 of 4 isn't too bad.) I started with only a +1 to the d20, but it really took a +2 to have a significant impact. Even on D&D maps, Drow armies with Mallok aren't really elite, but they're at least pretty good.

"Underdark Command" is obviously similar to the "Horde Shriek" power I drafted for the Zombie Hulk, but it's actually much more reliable. Because the engagement check is after Mallok's turn, and because Mallok has disengage, you can safely dump OMs on Mallok and have him run away to set up a squad activation. The flip side of that is that, unless you are willing to risk losing the bonus turn, you can't attack with Mallok, though.

* points for the first one to get the uber-nerd joke.

[wriggz]

I cannot ever imagine a situation where he would need to triple his height. Even with 7 move + 3 road + 2 movement glyph + 4 for elixir of speed still only equals 16 move. I think Double should be sufficient.

[Taeblewalker]

He's not too different from something Chas and I came up with. I like your version a lot.

[Darkmage7a]

Looks pretty good Dok. i'll have to play around with it a few times to get a good feel for Mallok. The question thats really on my mind is how well does the figure fit on the board? Unfortunately I don't have a real one to size it up with.

[dok]

It's a double-spaced figure. I'll add a note to that effect - actually I'll upload a picture of the figure on a map.I cannot ever imagine a situation where he would need to triple his height. Even with 7 move + 3 road + 2 movement glyph + 4 for elixir of speed still only equals 16 move.Once you have a move of more than 12, you could need a height of more than 10, in order to climb up 10 levels, and then level off. That's in play on a standard castle map, so it matters.

Even without valda+elixir of speed combos, though, it also matters for falling. Mallok can climb over a battlement on top of a wall walk and drop to the ground below without rolling for damage.

I think Double should be sufficient.I made it triple mainly for theme - i.e. to match the spiders.

[Scapemage]

Here's a figure that I've allocated a fair amount of resources to recently:*

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/mallok_original.jpg

The figure is the "Drider Fanglord" from the Savage Encounters release. It is very common and Auggie actually requested that someone draft a card for this mini to help him clear stock.

Obviously, the goal here is to create a figure that's heavy on synergy and enhances the other Drow figures. Mallok is OK by himself but is really all about enhancing the Deepwyrm Drow, the Drow Chainfighter, and Estivara. The extra two points of d20 love really help those three characters, all of which have two d20 powers. (Sadly, Pelloth still stinks, but hey, 3 of 4 isn't too bad.) I started with only a +1 to the d20, but it really took a +2 to have a significant impact. Even on D&D maps, Drow armies with Mallok aren't really elite, but they're at least pretty good.

"Underdark Command" is obviously similar to the "Horde Shriek" power I drafted for the Zombie Hulk, but it's actually much more reliable. Because the engagement check is after Mallok's turn, and because Mallok has disengage, you can safely dump OMs on Mallok and have him run away to set up a squad activation. The flip side of that is that, unless you are willing to risk losing the bonus turn, you can't attack with Mallok, though.

* points for the first one to get the uber-nerd joke.
Neat! There's a couple of text errors, but nothing major. Other than that, I love his powers and think more Arachnids are needed. :D

[dok]

Please let me know what text errors you see. The only one I spot (I had meant to fix it but forgot before posting) was to change "another" to "a" in Underdark Command.

[wriggz]

Falling! Of course.

I'm surprised you used a peanut for the base, I have one and since the legs are so spindlely the seems to bend to fit fine on a LArge D&D base.

[dok]

I'm surprised you used a peanut for the base, I have one and since the legs are so spindlely the seems to bend to fit fine on a LArge D&D base.

Have you actually pulled this off? I've never been much for the boiling/reshaping thing, but I could see it working here. It was super-easy to mount on a double base the way I did - just a few minutes with an exacto-knife and a couple drops of epoxy - but it would be nice to single-hex base it if possible.

On the subject of tricky re-basings - I got a hold of the "Huge Red Dragon" (not the über-expensive painted one (http://www.abprices.com/D/1817/huge-red-dragon), but the relatively cheap unpainted version (http://store02.prostores.com/servlet/auggiesgames/Detail?no=7087) from "Wrath of Ashardalon") and I'm sad to say that rebasing it onto a double-hexer would require some serious work. You'd have to cut out a bunch of the rock and the figure out a way to re-shape the tail. It's a shame, because this dragon is a good match in scale for the big 5 Heroscape dragons, but this custom (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1348476#post1348476) is probably going to stay on the shelf, or get proxied with a Mimring.

On the other hand, another possible repaint is working out much better. Stay tuned...

[qt.bangerang]

I really like all the love for the Drow and like the abilities you came up with...however I was looking into Drow history if you will and his race would be a Drider. Also, Driders are not liked by the Drow at all, and are more like wild animals. Not that this really matters I just wanted to throw it out there.

[wriggz]

As for basing:

http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv32/wryggz/th_002-1.jpg?t=1299984610

http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv32/wryggz/th_003.jpg?t=1299984610

[dok]

That's a sweet rebasing job, wriggz. Now I have to decide whether to re-rebase mine...

I really like all the love for the Drow and like the abilities you came up with...however I was looking into Drow history if you will and his race would be a Drider.Sure, he's technically a Drider, but I wanted the extra Estivara synergy, and what's a little left-hand-column fudging among friends? Driders are half-arachnid, after all...

Also, Driders are not liked by the Drow at all, and are more like wild animals. Not that this really matters I just wanted to throw it out there.I thought this changed in 4th edition?

[Tolamos]

Not bad... I'm going to have to test him out sometime.

[qt.bangerang]

I really like all the love for the Drow and like the abilities you came up with...however I was looking into Drow history if you will and his race would be a Drider.Sure, he's technically a Drider, but I wanted the extra Estivara synergy, and what's a little left-hand-column fudging among friends? Driders are half-arachnid, after all...

Also, Driders are not liked by the Drow at all, and are more like wild animals. Not that this really matters I just wanted to throw it out there.I thought this changed in 4th edition?[/quote]

I didn't know that it changed...but I'm no expert either. And I really like the Estivara synergy, in fact that is what I would have gone for too.

[Darkmage7a]

Do you have any suggested/ recommended armies for Mallok? I might have some spare time to run a playtest or two and I'd like to give this vision a shot now that I know it fits on a base. not sure if I should play it as a double spacer or not either. obviously it can be done, but one of he powers involves engagement and the base definitely plays a role there.

[dok]

Deepwyrm Drow - as many as fit the points, and then Estivara if you want. I would mix in Airborne Elite, Marro Warriors, and Fen Hydras if you want assorted high-quality adds. A special attacker doesn't hurt, I guess, but they need special attack killers more. Raelin is not great for them.

I guess I'd play him single-hexed if you have the choice. Argh... now I have to rebase mine, I guess.

[dok]

While my earlier effort (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1348476#post1348476) with an unpainted figure from the recent board game releases probably won't work as a Heroscape figure due to basing concerns, this one does work:

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/nidhog_232076_original.jpg

The original figure, which I used for the picture, is the Dracolich from the War of the Dragon Queen release. While you have to pay $50 (http://www.abprices.com/D/1537/dracolich) for that figure, it is the same sculpt as the unpainted "Gravestorm Dracolich" from the Castle Ravenloft board game. Auggie is selling (http://store02.prostores.com/servlet/auggiesgames/Detail?no=6494) the single for five bucks. It is a bone-colored plastic already, and doesn't look terrible just playing as-is. Because of the plastic color, it would be fairly easy to do some touch-up painting as opposed to a full paint job.

I used wire-cutters to trim the base down to Heroscape size; I had to take one paw off the base but it still fits fine in a 2-hex pit and doesn't present any stinger-denial issues. As you can see in this picture, the overall size and stance is fairly comparable to our venerable Ullar dragon:

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/dracolich_pic_original.jpg

From a balance perspective, this one was quite a challenge. I wanted to create an experience that was different than any of the current dragons. I think it's clear this guy is most similar to Braxas, but the overall effect ends up being pretty different, I think. The ability to hit large/huge figures changes the dynamic quite a bit - this guy is a lot better against Hydras and Q9 than Braxas is. But he's weaker against squads and weaker against small/medium heroes. The OM removal ability is powerful, but tempered by the high roll required (and the fact that I seem to always seemed to pull the "X" in testing ;)).

I didn't really find him unbalanced overall. I decided to make him Undead in stead of a Dragon, so that he wouldn't have Greenscale synergy (which seems like a stretch to me, thematically). Nidhog+Mezzodemons got overwhelmed by a standard soldiers&warlords build. Nidhog consistently got beaten by his points' worth of stingers, both in simulation and in practice. The only time Nidhog builds really felt extremely powerful was when put against non-disengaging, non-special attacking melee when fronted by rats (I know, big shocker there). Even then, it was fairly close - Gilbert+KoWx3 managed to crack the ratsx3 screen, but couldn't take Nidhog down despite about 6 or 7 hacks at him. Incorporating Nidhog into larger ratpodges didn't seem to do any better than usual against armies that were equipped with good special attackers.

Still, this guy was a challenge, for sure, and I'm interested in others' thoughts on him.

[quozl]

Looks good except for the mini pic on the card. He looks like a wyrmling!

[dok]

Looks good except for the mini pic on the card. He looks like a wyrmling!Are you saying I should blow the pic up a bit? I was trying to get the whole dragon in the frame. (ETA: I played with a bigger image, and you're right, it looks better that way.)

Incidentally, this is my first use of the highres Valkrill blank, although I've also upgraded my Skeletal Cyclops (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/skeletal_cyclops_489289_original.jpg) card to use the new highres as well. I had to write a custom style file in MSE because it's slightly differently-sized than the Mooseman blanks, but it looks great. Thanks, robbdaman and crossgrain!

[Jonny Jon]

how do you have time to do all of these? *Actually, i should shut up. I spent like 30 hours on dragon age 2 in the last 2 weeks while procrastinating on my schoolwork...

[Auggest]

Looks good except for the mini pic on the card. He looks like a wyrmling!Are you saying I should blow the pic up a bit? I was trying to get the whole dragon in the frame. (ETA: I played with a bigger image, and you're right, it looks better that way.)

Incidentally, this is my first use of the highres Valkrill blank, although I've also upgraded my Skeletal Cyclops (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/skeletal_cyclops_489289_original.jpg) card to use the new highres as well. I had to write a custom style file in MSE because it's slightly differently-sized than the Mooseman blanks, but it looks great. Thanks, robbdaman and crossgrain!

The High rez looks awsome btw once printed and laminated. I'll likely make this a requirement for Valkrill customs I'm selling....outstanding work.
......Andrew

[Drewman-chu]

I really like the dracolich card. I just purchased the Wrath of Aheradon so I hope to see more great cards of the figures. Did you use the Magic Easy card creator or Gimp? for your cards? They look great.

[dok]

I really like the dracolich card. I just purchased the Wrath of Aheradon so I hope to see more great cards of the figures.Thanks. I do have a couple more coming down the pipe, although now that I've joined the borg C3V I have less time for my own customs.

Did you use the Magic Easy card creator or Gimp? for your cards? They look great.I use MSE, although I prepare the images and the hitzone images in Gimp (see the last link in my signature). For the Dracolich, I had to make a custom style file to match the highres Valkrill blank.

[Serenity]

I have to say that your Mallok has me tempted to actually break down and buy one of these customs that Auggie's is selling. I have nothing against customs in general or Auggie's selling them, I just have been reluctant to put my limited funds into figures that I may not be able to use against other players. Mallok however addresses a huge hole where the Drow are concerned (and I love the Drow).

[Freezie]

From the SoV Thread
I know I'm not very outspoken on these boards but I couldn't help but notice that the Deepwater Warrior, the way I read it at least, can cause an unlimited amount of Deepwater Warriors to be activated in a single turn, thus being broken. If that was not a misinterpretation on my part I think it should be revised by dok and resubmitted.

You might mention it in dok's thread, too, but I am glad to see these types of concerns posted here. I don't necessarily make it to every designer's thread to read every post about their units, but I do read every post here.

As far as the infinite bonding loop, it looks like you may be right. We may have a record for shortest turnaround for an SoV nominee. ;)

[dok]

Already fixed to match the wyrmling language. I also fixed the Pugilitron and Hoplitron language. Thanks for the sharp eye.

[dok]

Here's another in the "unpainted figs from the recent D&D-themed board games" series:

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/dragon_hound_original.jpg

The figure is the "Rage Drake" which can be found in painted form for high prices, or unpainted for cheap (it's part of the "Wrath of Ashardalon" game, and can be bought individually from Auggies (http://store02.prostores.com/servlet/auggiesgames/Detail?no=7092)).

As a Large Wild Beast, it bonds with both Arrow Gruts and Deathchasers of Thesk. It provides a nice pseudoranged special attack at a good price. The power is a twist on the WoB pounce, modified to work for a double-spaced figure.

Comments (before I refer him to Auggie's) would be greatly appreciated.

[Frylock]

Double base or single? That could greatly affect how useful the special attack is. If double, I think it's ok. Single might be a tad too powerful for only a 65 pt hero who bonds.

EDIT: I didn't read closely enough. Carry on...

[Dad_Scaper]

Maybe drop "that figure immediately inflicts" and instead add something like "place a wound marker on this Dragon Hound." That way you don't have to worry about mechanics that trigger when damage is done by A to B.

[Taeblewalker]

I would change "any" empty space to "an" empty space, just to keep with what I believe is wording precedent. Otherwise, looks great; a combination of Eltahale and the Wolves of Badru.

Edit: But do you want it to attack twice? I would say "after moving and instead of attacking."

Or, you can just make it add two or even three dice to its attack, like Othkurik, and let the risk of a wound against the hound be the balancing factor, especially given its low life.

Kudos for making an inexpensive but intimidating Beast, Dok!

[Filthy the Clown]

Here's another in the "unpainted figs from the recent D&D-themed board games" series:

The figure is the "Rage Drake" which can be found in painted form for high prices, or unpainted for cheap (it's part of the "Wrath of Ashardalon" game, and can be bought individually from Auggies (http://store02.prostores.com/servlet/auggiesgames/Detail?no=7092)).

As a Large Wild Beast, it bonds with both Arrow Gruts and Deathchasers of Thesk. It provides a nice pseudoranged special attack at a good price. The power is a twist on the WoB pounce, modified to work for a double-spaced figure.

Comments (before I refer him to Auggie's) would be greatly appreciated.

The Hound seems like a great anti-Q9/Large/Huge unit, especially with his movement. With no target size restriction, he can perform Leaping Assault; if he fails to kill the target and lives to the next turn (which, with a defense of 4, he has a good shot at doing), he can disengage, move, and then Leap again. Seems like a pretty potent way to deliver two back-to-back, strength 6 attacks. A life of 3 seems fair, as one has to weigh the odds of the disengage...Which I like as well.

[dok]

I would change "any" empty space to "an" empty space, just to keep with what I believe is wording precedent.Eltahale's card says "any space"; perhaps this is just one of those things that varies from card to card?

But do you want it to attack twice? I would say "after moving and instead of attacking."Good call; well, "instead of attacking normally".

Maybe drop "that figure immediately inflicts" and instead add something like "place a wound marker on this Dragon Hound." That way you don't have to worry about mechanics that trigger when damage is done by A to B.But I actually want those mechanics - at least the ones I can think of. I want Vampires to heal a wound if they get the kill, and Zombie Hulks to rise again if a Zombie gets the kill.

Is there a potentially problematic interaction that I'm missing?

[Tolamos]

I like it!
No, I love it!
The funny thing is, I just started working on a card for this figure yesterday, and our two cards are almost exactly the same. The only differences are:
Name: "Rage Hound"
Species: Wolf
And for the pounce attack: "...is not higher or lower than 6 levels..."
Cost: 75
And mine does not have a picture yet.

That's too funny!

Anyway, good figure. Good boding options (I didn't even think about Deathchasers) and I prefer your cost of 65 over mine. However, you might want to bring his normal attack down to 3 just to make his special attack even more tempting.

[Dad_Scaper]

No, off the top of my head I can't think of any way it breaks, it's just something to deal with when there are vampires or Zombie Hulks or maybe some other things I'm not thinking of running around.

This goes to the heart of the Dad_Scaper <-> dok Tug of War, where the rope is your customs.

I like 'em as elegant and simple as thematically and mechanically possible, that's all. Perhaps soon you will be able to hear my critiques in your head before you even post the custom. :p

[dok]

I do hear some of them in my head already. And it's a good thing. I think of myself as a fan of simple language on cards, but it's nice to be reminded that you can always go lower.

In this case, I lean toward keeping the "inflicts" language. This is a single-power card that's still operating at max fontsize with full margins in the text box, so I'm not so worried about cutting words for the sake of cutting words. And it's not really that much of an extra complication.

However, you might want to bring his normal attack down to 3 just to make his special attack even more tempting.I'm pretty sure the special is awfully tempting already. Filthy mentions that he'd be willing to disengage from a big hitter to use the special again, which actually does seem like a decent strategy to me.

[dalu]

Range 10 special attack with 6 dice, the choice between two bondings, all at a cheap price !
May have a huge impact on the meta-game, who still dare to bring or draft Charos, or Braxas ?

Needs a lot of play-testing, I think it may be too strong.
I wouldn't be so worried if Leaping Assault was limited to small, medium and large figures only.

I can see a problematic interaction with Tandros Kreel Combat Challenge.
Who must be attacked if a Dragon Hound is placed by Leaping Assault near to both Tandros and the targeted figure ?
If it's Tandros, than he may be attacked even if he was more than 3 spaces away before the Leaping Assault.

By cons, I don't think that Engagement Strike can cause a problem.

Simple note:
You can place a Dragon Hound behind a peanut-based target, who was at 10 hexes before the move.
Doing so, the total move (without any bonuses) will be 7 (normal move) +3 (leap) +3 (placed behind peanut) = 13.

[Taeblewalker]

Since the wound on the Dragon Hound is basically a form of Counter Strike, I don't see how Tandros presents any problems.

[dalu]

Since the wound on the Dragon Hound is basically a form of Counter Strike, I don't see how Tandros presents any problems.
No problem with the wound on the Dragon Hound.

But:
1) The Dragon Hound MUST choose a figure before Leaping Assault and MUST attack that figure after being placed.
2) If the hound is placed also adjacent to Tandros, he MUST attack Tandros (because of Combat Challenge).
Impossible to do all those things that MUST be done in the same time.

[dok]

Range 10 special attack with 6 dice, the choice between two bondings, all at a cheap price !
May have a huge impact on the meta-game, who still dare to bring or draft Charos, or Braxas ?

Needs a lot of play-testing, I think it may be too strong.It's possible, but you're overstating things here when you say range 10 special. A special where you have to close into engagement to use it, and can't use it again, is a completely different animal than an attack that can be used repeatedly at range. The normal attack of 4 that the Majors have is, in my opinion, much more dangerous, because it can easily be an attack of 5, and it can get used repeatedly.

Of course, the Majors don't bond, but from an OM efficiency standpoint this guy is not really any stronger than the options those squads already have - the OP's double attack, Krug's double attack, Mimring's fireline, and the Warhulk's Flail Hurricane. Granted, those figures are more expensive, but they also live a lot longer.

I can see a problematic interaction with Tandros Kreel Combat Challenge.
Who must be attacked if a Dragon Hound is placed by Leaping Assault near adjacent to both Tandros and the targeted figure ?
If it's Tandros, than he may be attacked even if he was more than 3 spaces away before the Leaping Assault.I agree; it's an issue. I will add an "if possible" to make it clear that combat challenge takes precedence. (EDIT: done. Thanks, dalu.)

You can place a Dragon Hound behind a peanut-based target, who was at 10 hexes before the move.
Doing so, the total move (without any bonuses) will be 7 (normal move) +3 (leap) +3 (placed behind peanut) = 13.And it's even better with the Hive! But this is not a major issue. Eltahale has the same odd corner effects.

[dok]

Here's a very simple one for the Gargoyle. I actually considered some other effects (bonding/attacks/etc), but in the end this basic one felt the most thematic. Again, super cheap (unpainted) at Auggie's, this time courtesy of the Castle Ravenloft set.

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/6/0/9/6/gargoyle_original.jpg

Despite no potential for multiple activations, their strong defensive power makes them pretty nice as a cheap blocker or glyph-holder in some armies.

[Dad_Scaper]

Looks good. "Menacing"? Heh.

I think you can strike "for this round" from the end of Stone Form.

[dok]

Looks good. "Menacing"? Heh.Seemed like the ultimate no-brainer. Well, I considered relentless just for the bonding but it felt pretty forced.

I think you can strike "for this round" from the end of Stone Form.I sure can. Thanks.

[Dad_Scaper]

Not a unit that will crack the foundations of Heroscape, but I like the Stone Form mechanic and I like the introduction of 'menacing.' Price looks good, I have Ravenloft and the mini I know looks good, go for it.

[quozl]

I think I'd like it better if you struck revealed markers. Makes it so you'd only want to move him on turn 3.

[dok]

I think I'd like it better if you struck revealed markers. Makes it so you'd only want to move him on turn 3.You mean unrevealed, right? If I removed revealed, you'd only want to move him in turn 1.

I like that version, but I'm a bit worried about this making the Gargoyle too easy to use effectively in cleanup. If you can effectively turn the vulnerable period down to the length of an OM (and no time at all if initiative cooperates) then it really increases the usability of the card. Then again, it's still just one activation.

[Taeblewalker]

I think I'd like it better if you struck revealed markers. Makes it so you'd only want to move him on turn 3.You mean unrevealed, right? If I removed revealed, you'd only want to move him in turn 1.

I like that version, but I'm a bit worried about this making the Gargoyle too easy to use effectively in cleanup. If you can effectively turn the vulnerable period down to the length of an OM (and no time at all if initiative cooperates) then it really increases the usability of the card. Then again, it's still just one activation.


I see your point, Dok. They have a protection when they're not even bluffing with an X. However, I still like the idea of no unrevealed OM's.

[Tolamos]

Good card that I think captures the feeling of a gargoyle very nicely.
For Stone Form, you can get rid of "revealed or unrevealed" if you want it to count for all order markers.

However, I think Stone Form should be:

"If there are no revealed order markers on any.."

This allows you to keep an "X" marker and allows for a bluff. It also allows for the Gargoyle to ambush figures that get too close by using the "3." This makes it so that the gargoyles can stay dormant until needed. With the added strategy, you also might think about adding 5 points to the cost.

[dok]

Yeah, I do like allowing the bluff to be in play. I'm now leaning towards getting rid of "or unrevealed" in the text.

I think my worries about the power of the Gargoyle in endgame are overblown. You're automatically vulnerable unless you only activate a Gargoyle once a round.

[Typhon2222]

Really like the Gargoyle's Stone Form mechanic. I always enjoy units with specials revolving around order markers, such as Siege, and wish we'd gotten more of them. This really scratches that itch. Very thematic implementation.

[Darkmage7a]

I like the Gargoyle. I was trying to figure out what to do with that sculpt since I have Castle Ravenloft and WoA too. It was just icing on the cake to realize that being a guard lets him bond with the Gatekeepers.

Great job on Mallok too. He makes playing drow heroes much more feasible. If he gets tied down it's almost always worth the disengage to take the free turn. Of course that also mean you should never have to risk it when it isn't worth it either. :p

PS: Could you please update the OP. You have alot of material spread out and its getting tricky to sort through. Thanks.

[dok]

PS: Could you please update the OP. You have alot of material spread out and its getting tricky to sort through. Thanks.I added Mallok, the Gargoyle, and the Dragon Hound. I think that's everything...

[Jonny Jon]

65 does seem strong for the dragon hound. I think its a cool unit though.

[William099]

Some questions about your Obsidian Champion. It says "At the end of the round spaces adjacent to this Obsidian Champion are considered lava field spaces."

Do those spaces remain lava as long as the Champion stands there? Do they remain lava after the Champion walks away? Is lava field the "roll an attack die and a skull is a wound" effect or is it "roll a d20 anything but a 20 kills you" effect?

Finally it says "friendly figures may treat the space they are on as a molten lava space." What about enemy figures? Are they automatically burned?

Also on Crag why is Rockslide Trample worded differently from Tor-Kul-Na's trample stomp? Is it a flavor difference or does it actually change the way Crag behaves in comparision to Torky?

[dok]

Thanks for the questions William.

Some questions about your Obsidian Champion. It says "At the end of the round spaces adjacent to this Obsidian Champion are considered lava field spaces." Do those spaces remain lava as long as the Champion stands there? Do they remain lava after the Champion walks away?They are only lava field in that instant at the end of the round, then they go back to normal.

Is lava field the "roll an attack die and a skull is a wound" effect or is it "roll a d20 anything but a 20 kills you" effect? Lava field is the attack die. Molten lava is the d20.

Finally it says "friendly figures may treat the space they are on as a molten lava space." What about enemy figures? Are they automatically burned?It's just friendly figures, like it says.

Also on Crag why is Rockslide Trample worded differently from Tor-Kul-Na's trample stomp? Is it a flavor difference or does it actually change the way Crag behaves in comparision to Torky?It changes it. Crag can trample a figure on a space that is not on the same level as he is.

[William099]

Okay so who does the Obsidian Champion benefit with that power? If it's only in that instant and only affects friendly figures what affect on the game does it have?

[awesomeunleashed]

Okay so who does the Obsidian Champion benefit with that power? If it's only in that instant and only affects friendly figures what affect on the game does it have?

The power has two completely separate effects.

1. Any figures adjacent to the Champion at the end of the round take lava field damage (unless they have Lava Resistant, of course).

2. At any time, a figure adjacent to the Champion may treat its space as a molten lava space. This lets adjacent Obsidian Guards use their Lava Throw.
(To dok: it should be "treat the spaces they are on as molten lava spaces." If you argue Deathchaser precedent, I will punch you. :p)

[William099]

Oh I totally misread the second part... alright I get it now.

[Arch-vile]

Have you considered submitting your Pugilitron custom to the SoV? I played a couple casual games with 2-3 Pugilitrons and it was fun, but not really that powerful (rather like the Hoplitron in that aspect). I think it's a good looking mini and is a nice reuse of Cyberclaw, and would fit well within the canon. Since it's a custom of yours, I imagine it is balanced as well (60 points for a 4/5 two man squad is decent, but not great--look at Death Knights who are similar and have bonding). It has enough availibility (http://www.abprices.com/D/1453/hammerer) too, and is quite cheap.

My one complaint is the left side. A disciplined soulborg fighter seems off to me for some reason.

[weebaer]

Wow, I just read through these. I can see myself playing all of them.

I really like Crag, Chorin, Mallok and Obsidian Champion.

Mallok is by far my favorite. I have always found the Drow to be a very slow and order marker heavy team. I have no problems playing with them, they just have a lot of trouble with other themed teams. Mallok is a perfect unit they desperately needed.

I do think that the Deep Water Warrior is slightly underpriced which is why I assume there are some thumbs down icons. I do really like the idea of a water/wind elemental army though.


Just in case you haven't caught it yet, in Griffon Cavalry's Talon Carry, it should be controls not "controlls".

[dok]

Thanks weebaer.

Have you considered submitting your Pugilitron custom to the SoV? I played a couple casual games with 2-3 Pugilitrons and it was fun, but not really that powerful (rather like the Hoplitron in that aspect). I think it's a good looking mini and is a nice reuse of Cyberclaw, and would fit well within the canon. Since it's a custom of yours, I imagine it is balanced as well (60 points for a 4/5 two man squad is decent, but not great--look at Death Knights who are similar and have bonding). It has enough availibility (http://www.abprices.com/D/1453/hammerer) too, and is quite cheap.

My one complaint is the left side. A disciplined soulborg fighter seems off to me for some reason.
Interesting; I haven't updated this in a while and the Pugilitron really is just about the only one that has sufficient availability for purchasing towards non-online play.

Personally, I like disciplined soulborg fighter. People had the same complaint about the Hoplitron (disciplined soulborg champion) but to me that unusual class was part of the appeal of the design in an odd way.

[greygnarl]

What if it was a disciplined soulborg gladiator? It probably wouldn't be worth it in a horde+Spartacus build but would still be fun and it could be nonSteamroller Glad build filler. Just a thought.

[dok]

What if it was a disciplined soulborg gladiator? It probably wouldn't be worth it in a horde+Spartacus build but would still be fun and it could be nonSteamroller Glad build filler. Just a thought.I thought about that (and I did something similar with the Minotaur), but in the end it felt a little forced.

I like the idea of each common 'tron having a different class, which is common to other figures in the game.

Blasts = Guards
Glads = Hunters
Hoplitron = Champion
Pugilitron = Fighter

I could go warrior for the Pugilitron, too, I guess, but I like fighter a bit more.

[greygnarl]

I also think Fighter is better than Warrior.

[Arch-vile]

I like the idea of each common 'tron having a different class, which is common to other figures in the game.

Blasts = Guards
Glads = Hunters
Hoplitron = Champion
Pugilitron = Fighter

I could go warrior for the Pugilitron, too, I guess, but I like fighter a bit more.

When you write it out like that, I really like it. Fighter seems to fit naturally in that set.

[AMIS]

Just a quick FYI.
I've been using Mallok as part of my figures for quite some time and the figures is well costed and gives a significant boost to a rather hapless Drow army.

Background - I've never been a fan of Drow, or High Elves, or Village people Elves, or tree Elves or ...etc. But I understand why folks like them they just never appealed to me. And I picked up this figure from auggies with the card for a friend (and a fan of Drow) to try out and it has fit in exceptionally nicely with the rest of my set.

This is a very well done card. Thank you.

[Arch-vile]

Hey dok, the Zettian Marauder figure has 56 figures on abprices (http://www.abprices.com/D/2053/blood-golem-of-hextor) now; I thought you mentioned that was one of your favorite customs. There are probably a few more on ebay, if you wanted even more domination of the SoV Soulborgs. ;)

[bacchus]

Some cool figures in there.

I noticed a problem with Gargoyle. If you have multiple Gargoyles, each one grants the bonus. For example, if you have 3 Gargoyles, they each get +3 if they are all unrevealed. So it would need some sort of disclaimer that this only occurs once no matter how many you have.

[dok]

If you have multiple Gargoyles, each one grants the bonus. For example, if you have 3 Gargoyles, they each get +3 if they are all unrevealed. So it would need some sort of disclaimer that this only occurs once no matter how many you have.
If you have three squads of Omnicron Repulsors, and an Omnicron Repulsor is next to a figure you are attacking, can you apply three Targeting Beacon bonuses for a total of +3?

It's the same.

[bacchus]

I don't have Omnicron Repulsors, but I applied the same logic to Deathreavers and your logic makes sense. I seem to keep seeing my initial argument raised against other customs by other users.

Is there a precedent? Maybe it is only for uncommon heroes or something?

[HarleyThomas]

Pretty cool stuff.

Can't say I did Crag though. Much prefer chaoserver's Earth Titan over it. The other Elemental of the group are definitely way awesome though.