I have contacted the authorities on UltraDoug

[skyknight]

Dear Scapers,

I hate to even have to begin this letter for you to read. It seems sometimes the most harmless acts can turn into bad situations. If you are wondering what I am talking about then I will try my best to explain. I figure the best place is at the beggining. As some of you may have noticed UltraDoug is no longer posting with us. And here is the reason why.

When I first started on HQ one of the first peopleI noticed was Doug, how could you not. As many come to the boards he is often their first contact since he was all over. Well after awhile we were kinda AOL IMing back and forth because we were both on in the early morning. After time I realized that UD was a bit off center so I backed off quite a bit. I guess it is only fun to try to goof around sometimes and not everything is meant to be ruined for our own personal benifit. So i kinda backed away from Doug and settled into a more involved approach at HQ and then Scapers.

Well here is the problem. While I was in California with my son for the sweepstakes my 16 year old daughter was left at home to watch the animals. I did not believe we would have any trouble because she is a straight A student and a real good kid. The kind as a parent you think can run themselves. Well I was wrong. While I was gone Doug Im'd my computer and my daughter answered. She has recently gotten into anime and Doug started talking to her about that. In the one week I was gone Doug was telling my daughter he loved her on My Space and was planning on flying to NY to meet her.

I will not go into the detail of Doug's messages to my daughter but they would make your skin crawl. He talked of how he was not married which he is, he did not mention his own children nor any of these facts to my daughter. On other sites Doug began to talk about the problem with the age of consent.
WhenI got home I checked my daughters accounts as I always do and her password had changed. I had to crack my daughters new password to get to these things but when I did I found out Doug was one week away from coming to my home town to meet my daughter. He was already asking for pictures of her to be sent.

I instantly notified local authorities as well as the Texas police. It seems that NY did not want to endanger my daughter by leading him on so they would not bait him. Since their was no actual mention of sex they decided to list him on their website as a potential hazard and leave it at that.

it seems that Texas felt the same way and now authorities are monitoring him to some extent but are not able to move because of the matter of sex not being mentioned. I was a bit upset by this as any parent would be but I have decided to accept the authorities wisdom on this. Though I will say this , if Doug ever steps near my home...... well just leave it at that.

I notified the site and forwarded some of the emails and posts Doug had wrote about loving and kissing my daughter and from there it was decided that this community would not play host to these kind of problems. And hence UD is gone.

I must say this is my first experience with an online community and I was a bit shook at first. Almost to the point of letting Doug come and then handling it myself. At first I did wonder if I wanted to still continue posting and what not and inviting strangers over to play Heroscape. Though Doug had never been invited. I can honestly say my answer is that I am here to stay.

In no way shape or form is Scapers even mildly responsible for what happened. As a matter of fact it was an outstanding member of this community who is not even Admin who helped me on the Texas end. No, there are far more fine folks here than there are bad apples and I like it here very much.

I hope this letter finds you all doing well and for those of you who are parents I hope this is a bit of a wake up for you as it is for me. If I had not checked my daughters things who knows what may have happened. I shudder to even think about it.

thanks for listening guys.

[player_of_volleyball]

so is he gone for good?

[truth]

I have been supplied with sufficent evidence to warrent the immediate and permanet banning of heroscapers.com member: ultradoug

Solemnly,
Truth

[ninthdoc]

sky, I know that this has been trying on your family. I understand all too well what your feelings are, as a father of a young son and daughter myself. I hope that you will continue here and that we can all take a lesson from this.

Unfortunately, this is not the first time that something like this has happened in this community. Thankfully, nothing serious has happened yet. There was one incident of theft that I'm aware of, but I believe that the victim of that would agree that "things" can be replaced, "people" can't.

I'm about to put up a post detailing some of this and I'll link to it from here. This is a great community, but we have to remember that there are predators that walk among us, even in cyberspace.

[johnny139]

Wow.

The ultradoug? The legendary card maker?

Wow...

[monkeyfish]

That really stinks and now I won't ever get a card. :(

[ninthdoc]

Link. (http://heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=2958&highlight=)

I know this is sad and shocking for a lot of people. It has taken me aback as well. Guys, please, this has been very difficult on skyknight and his family, so belay the comments about the ****ing cards! Okay?

[monkeyfish]

I was just kidding.

[DarkSpade]

I knew he was "off kilter", but I didn't know he was that far off.

[django]

WoW! you know i thought he was goofy but thats crazy the guy has kid/s are you sure it was him and not one of the guys he hangs with?im not trying to defend him but thats a serious serious thing to be accused of. but you had to do what you had to do right.truth good looking out.

[ninthdoc]

I was just kidding.

I don't know how old you are or if you have children, but there is nothing funny about this thread at all. Considering the pain and anguish that skyknight and his family have endured and the disgusting nature of what UD has been accused of, I'd like to respectfully request that you please go find another thread to carry on humor in.

[monkeyfish]

I'm sorry. :(

[ninthdoc]

I'm sorry. :(

Apology accepted by me. I hope you understand my position on this. I'm the king of corn and one-liners elsewhere, but this one is just not a laughing matter, either from sky's perspective or from the perspective of those who've lost a friend online or IRL (lost to the community).

Thank you for being mature enough to apologize. Now, let's go have fun on another thread. :)

[lilwis]

Thank you Skynight, Ninth, and Truth.

[Jim]

Wow Sky, I hope everything is (and will be) OK with you and your family. You've all got my thoughts.

Jim

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

Skyknight sorry to hear of the situation your daughter got into and I'm even more sorry it happened with a prominent 'Scaper.
I'm glad your daughter's safe and it's been a wake-up call of sorts for me(and hopefully others) in what pictures or personal information we provide on the internet.
One member PMed once about knowing who my wife was and where she could be found. It was a warning about the information I was unknowningly putting out here in cyberspace and that creeped me out quite a bit. Brrr.


Again, I'm glad your daughter's safe and you have decided to stay with us.


WoW! you know i thought he was goofy but thats crazy the guy has kid/s are you sure it was him and not one of the guys he hangs with?im not trying to defend him but thats a serious serious thing to be accused of. but you had to do what you had to do right.truth good looking out.

UD has done those fake ID things in the chatroom here. I always found that to be a big bad foul on our site (and the internet in general).
If it was someone else contacting Sky's daughter, he needs to find a way to prove it to Sky.

[reapersaurus]

umm.

This is VERY disturbing to me.

UD is a different kind of personality, and certainly got across a tendency towards the school-age japanese girl fetish, but I sure hope the evidence is clear, and he's been contacted by an Admin and dealt with personally.

Not because he deserves to be dealt with straight-up if it's true, but because you don't want him thinking he was done an end-around on, or make him feel like he didn't have a chance to defend himself to SOMEone.

UD has the capability of reading this site again, and even joining it again as a different person. I'm pretty sure he has the know-how and energy to, if he feels he has something more to say.

All, very disturbing. Not what I was expecting to catch up on this morning.

[D-Dyzzle]

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e383/netherspirit/Smilies/eek2.gif

[bunjee]

umm.

This is VERY disturbing to me.

UD is a different kind of personality, and certainly got across a tendency towards the school-age japanese girl fetish, but I sure hope the evidence is clear, and he's been contacted by an Admin and dealt with personally.

Not because he deserves to be dealt with straight-up if it's true, but because you don't want him thinking he was done an end-around on, or make him feel like he didn't have a chance to defend himself to SOMEone.

UD has the capability of reading this site again, and even joining it again as a different person. I'm pretty sure he has the know-how and energy to, if he feels he has something more to say.

All, very disturbing. Not what I was expecting to catch up on this morning.Reaper, I would hope that you trust the admins of this site to deal with things in an upright manner. Allegations such as this would never be taken lightly. Perhaps you are just pointing out to many that he could join this site again, but be sure that your admin's are aware of how the internet works, and ways that people can abuse an internet community.

We are here to serve and protect to the best of our abilities, and our abilities are many.

[Hahnarama]

OK normally I wouldn’t get involved with this but as Abu El Banat, look it up, it gives me the right to go off half cocked!

1. Only Sky, the Admins, local law enforcement, and *** know what was said. I am trusting that after much review and discussion the right move was made.
2. I trust Doc and Sky’s work on this but have you thought of this? Doesn’t he live on a LARGE US Army base and in Base housing? I’d try and contact them. I am betting they would not look too kindly on said messages originating from their network.
3. <snip>
4. If it were me I would send a certified letter to his wife. Once again this is just me.
5. I trust that the Admins are more IT savvy than ****. I bet they have IP blocked him, and from even viewing as a guest. <snip>
6. It’s wrong no matter whose daughter he tried this on but it was a fellow member.

-Hahn

[truth]

Sorry Hahn, had to edit your post. I understand your frustration with the matter, but I can't allow hateful things to be said on the site.

[Hahnarama]

Bro don't feel bad about the edit. You're my friend but this is also your site and you have to run it as you see fit.

Hateful? No

ANGRY HELL YES!

[truth]

Bro don't feel bad about the edit. You're my friend but this is also your site and you have to run it as you see fit.

Hateful? No

ANGRY HELL YES!

Understandable.

[Joah]

Whoa...
As the father of two young girls I applaud Truth, Sky and of course NDoc.

I've been busy with a Design project, and haven't had time to read up as I normally would on a Sunday morning. I just got caught up.

Sky, I cannot express to you how sorry I am that happened to your family.
You did the right thing.
I'm very glad your daughter is safe.

I would heed Hahnarama's advice on this one.
If he did do this from a Base, authorities need to be contacted.

[InfinityMax]

Sky, man, I have a 10-year-old daughter, and if I found out something like this had happened to her - well, let's just say our responses would have been similar. Especially the part where he better not show up at my house. I am so sorry this happened to you and your kid. It's sickening.

I know Ninthdoc took a personal interest in this - he may not be the 'Scapers PD, but he sure as heck does look our for us. I thoroughly appreciate what you did, Doc, knowing full well you would look out for my kids the same way.

It sucks that something like this happened, but it is nice to know people are looking out for us. Heck, I've got two kids, and I like knowing that someone around here is keeping an eye out.

[countblah]

I don't even have the words. It's Sunday, I just got back from a youth retreat, hanging out with the kids, and it becomes all the more obvious how all of our reputations hang in the balance as to how we deal with kids. We protect our children vehemently, as we should, and correct conduct is paramount.
Sin sucks. Sorry all this got lumped on you, Skynight.

[bushi96]

Good job Skynight and Ninth.

I have been a little lax with my kids and the Internet lately because they have been acting responsible. I need to remember it is not them I have to worry about. Good wake up call.

[Rÿchean]

I am truly disturbed and sickened by this.

Skynight, I feel terrible that you have had to go through something like this.

It feels just awful...so awful :(

[skyknight]

Well here is the deal fellas. First their is no doubt in my mind it was UD. There are loads of emails, pm's, chats, and all other sorts of things. Many of these emails kept telling my daughter to not tell me about it. He was alos requesting hotel and motel information to get here. I do agree that his wife should be contacted and if I can figure out how to I will. This is a twenty seven year old male who was using Sailor moon to get at my 16 year old daughter.

Now many of you have expressed concern for my daughter and I appreciate it. Here is where we stand.
First I told her I knew, then I explained the danger she had put herself and her family into. from there I made her sit and listen to each email as I read it out loud to her. That was what really pushed her over the edge. By the end of it she was actually happy I found out and was going to lead Doug on to get him here to be arrested. NY state PD did not want her used as bait.

So all is well that ends well, but I do say for those of you who take this lightly, you must understand that Doug has travelled to many of your fellow Scapers homes and been around quite a few other kids. I also know that many of his friends on this site are young teens. That is what made me decide to take action against him here.

My daughter even tried to post here and Doug told her that that was a bad idea and they must be much more careful. There is much much more but I will not get to involved in it.

What really scares me is that Doug is now home while his wife is serving overseas and he is watching children. Texas PD have decided to keep an eye on him but that is all they can do right now. That part of the story is what truly bothers me.

[skyknight]

And by the way, since it is already out there. NinthDoc is truly a great great guy. He was the first person I reached out to and he helped me immensley. I gave Ninth access to all of my daughters sites and mail so he is really the only one who saw what truly happened. As you read these things you can watch as UD slithers another tentacle in to hook my daughter post after post. I am telling you it was pretty scary and again I want to say thank you to Ninth for all he has done.

[bunjee]

First I told her I knew, then I explained the danger she had put herself and her family into. from there I made her sit and listen to each email as I read it out loud to her. That was what really pushed her over the edge. By the end of it she was actually happy I found out and was going to lead Doug on to get him here to be arrested. NY state PD did not want her used as bait.Sky, this is perfect. This is exactly the sort of thing that brings people back to their senses. When they hear things read out loud, especially with someone else's intonation, it can completely change how they perceive it. Excellent bit of parenting!

[DoesntCompute]

In light of this information, I will be removing my avatar which was the card created for me by UD. It's not much I know Sky but ...

<snip>

[netherspirit]

DoesntCompute, Had to edit your post.

I can't allow hateful things to be said on the site.

[Hahnarama]

I do agree that his wife should be contacted and if I can figure out how to I will. This is a twenty seven year old male who was using Sailor moon to get at my 16 year old daughter.

It should be as simple as contacting the right folks, MPs or Public Affiars, at Fort Hood. Of course you know your way around Army channels better than I.

[CornPuff]

really sorry this happened to you and your family, skyknight.

yeah. this whole thing is making my head spin. Despite UD's online persona, this is out of the blue if you ask me. I'm just glad that Skyknight and Ninthdoc were able to handle it so effectively.

[ninthdoc]

I appreciate the kind words, but no thanks are necessary, really. I agree that UD should be allowed to defend himself, nothing is stopping anyone from contacting him via e-mail or IM.

I had an IM chat with him yesterday, as a matter of fact. He explained his side to me and while what he had to say was feasible, I had to remind myself of something: pedophiles and hebophiles are, by nature and necessity, some of the most manipulative people in our society.

If what UD said to me yesterday was true, then he still has some responsibility for this by virtue of having been irresponsible with his private information and giving someone access to skyknight's daughter and who knows what or who else from here. I explained this to him.

About 4-6 weeks ago, he had already been talking about leaving this community due to personal considerations. I personally reviewed his e-mails to sky's daughter and believed that they came from him. I based this belief on my personal knowledge of UD for the past year online and having met him in person several times over the past 9 months. I forwarded said e-mails to law enforcement officials in his hometown and they had the same opinion: that this was an act of a person who was soliciting a minor. Their response will be one of monitoring a potential threat in their city.

As far as UD's living situation goes, he was not living on base back in December of last year. I still have other contacts to make.

It is important to me that everyone understands, I'm not looking to hurt UD. I, myself, am hurt and feel betrayed, but my only concern is for our users, their families, UD's own family, and my duty as a law enforcement officer. I do not seek or relish any of this. I want to re-iterate that I did not go looking for any of the things that I mentioned on the other thread I put up. I was contacted and asked to look into them. Things went south from there.

I'm not here to hurt anyone. I just hope you all know that.

[countblah]

I'm not here to hurt anyone. I just hope you all know that.

If everyone had that same feeling, then we wouldn't need you to step up.

[skyknight]

I will tell you this now. The person who contacted my daughter knew all about me, my Scapers posting habits, and a bunch more. The guy who wrote those emails, could not spell, used the word bane and was all about sailor moon. If it was not Doug then it was the best impression I have ever seen. There is no doubt in my mind who it was.

[funrun]

I am sincerely glad that all turned out okay for you and your family skyknight.

[DoesntCompute]

DoesntCompute, Had to edit your post.

I can't allow hateful things to be said on the site.

No problem Nether.

Let me try it another way. I find people who harm kids about the lowest form of people on the earth. If you want to edit that as well go ahead. I don't feel it is hateful as much as stating my opinion about the situation.

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

If what UD said to me yesterday was true, then he still has some responsibility for this by virtue of having been irresponsible with his private information and giving someone access to skyknight's daughter and who knows what or who else from here. I explained this to him.

This was the big SNAFU UD created even if he IS innocent. The whole 'let's pretend we're someone else!' hoax - via e-mails, IM, chatrooms, whatever - is not cool, responsible, or safe!

[yagyuninja]

:( Wow. First time online today. Sorry you had to go through this Sky. Horrible. Sounds like you did just what you needed to, though. Hopefully I and everyone else can learn from this.

To ninth and admins: thanks.

[geddy lifeson]

Sky, I am sorry for what you had to go through and am glad it was stopped where it was. As a father of a beautiful little girl, I completely understand how you feel and will keep my comments to myself about how I would have dealt with it.

It is a shame that incidents like this happen, but it is a reminder of the dangers facing our children everyday. There are many ways to monitor family members online habits and this is one reason why I feel such actions are not an invasion of privacy. Children are impressionable and easy to take advantage of and without watchful parents can easily fall victim to attack.

I feel sick personnaly at this time about this situation, I considered UD a bit of a friend and had invited him into my own home. I was careful of how open I left myself as I didn't know him too well and agreed thoroughly with my wife that I would not allow him to stay overnight. I know that many here have developed friendships with other members and have opened their homes to others for get togethers, etc... This recent incident serves as an unfortunate lesson to be more apprehensive of who we let into our personal lives and to what extent.

I seriously applaud the efforts of those here in quickly dealing with this and taking appropriate action. I only hope that Doug's wife is notified of his actions and that the Army base is made aware of the type of individual he is. I guarantee it will not be taken lightly and he needs to be monitored if he is in fact on base or off-base for that matter. I only hope that the local authorities keep a close eye on his RL and online habits and keep anyone from becoming a victim. I feel sorry for his family, especially with a new baby, that this will have to come to light and be dealt with.

[Joah]

UD has the capability of reading this site again, and even joining it again as a different person. I'm pretty sure he has the know-how and energy to, if he feels he has something more to say.

All, very disturbing. Not what I was expecting to catch up on this morning.
All true.

As involved as he was, I can't believe he'll be able to just "let it go".

He'll surely lay low for awhile, but what after that?

[wisinger]

Don't even know really what to say. I have been reading this pretty much all day. Also a father of a beautiful young girl, and husband to a beautiful wife. People like this anger me to no end. These people are why I don't let my kids play in the front yard with out either I or lilwis out front as well. Hell, we rarely let them in the back yard alone.

sometimes I worry that I am an overprotective mean dad, other times, I just can't get past the fear of what could happen.

With young kids (well children in general) on line now, it just scares the heebee geebees (can't think of a better approperiate word) out of me.

Thank you ninth for being who you are. I think whether you are a policeman or not, that you would have willingly taken the steps and offered up the help that you have, and the world is a better place because of you. It is people like you that lilwis and I welcome to our home, and as of today, I don't feel like a "Snob" for not opening our home to a general population, no matter who.

Thank you all for both taking care of things, making it a better place, and for sharing with the community what happened as a reminder to us parents, the younger members, etc. as opposed to a person bashing, or something of that sort.

[lilwis]

Thank you ninth for being who you are. I think whether you are a policeman or not, that you would have willingly taken the steps and offered up the help that you have, and the world is a better place because of you.

Ninth, you should know how I feel about this. Back on ST.Com, I mentioned something after a post you made. I fudged your post and quoted as 'Unsung Hero'.

I'm glad and lucky to call you a friend of mine.

[DarkSpade]

Reaper is right. UD has the know-how to get back onto this site. He has had mulitiple accounts online at the same time back on HQ, I'm sure he could do the same thing here.

Luckly, UD's posts are always really obvious.

[ninthdoc]

Luckly, UD's posts are always really obvious.

Please don't take this for granted. He can, and has, completely changed his posting style in the past.

Please take this information as a reminder to be wary. Please don't isolate yourselves. This is a great community full of wonderful and very friendly people. I told my wife the other day that I have more friends now than ever before in my life.

BTW, I'm honored, but I don't feel like a hero. Thank you, but I'm just crabby old ninthdoc.

[InfinityMax]

Thank you, but I'm just crabby old ninthdoc.

Yeah, but in this case, that's WHY you're a hero.

Sorry, you're stuck with it. At least for a while. I oughta slap a 'BIG DAMN HERO' sticker on your avatar.

[skyknight]

I will say one last thing for those people who may have doubts. Not only if it wasn't Doug was his You tube stole, but his email, his teen chat room identity, his Myspace and he even responded to my daughter here and then wrote an email on how she could cover it up. On top of that I know what play Doug is in right now as well as he had a disagreement with his wife before Iraq. I know who his favorite Sailor chick is because he nicknamed my daughter that and then took one of the other names. No I know enough about Doug to where if it was not him he was totally and completely violated and every inch of his life was stolen all the way to the point where his imposter twin was going to be waiting in a motel downtown and my daughter was saying she was going for a walk. I know more about Doug now than I ever care to. Do not kid yourselves folks, it was him and he targetted my daughter.

[Berza]

Skynight, kudos to you for taking responsibility to ensure the safety of your children online. Too many parents nowadays don't - especially those of teenagers. I hate to think how this could have turned out if not for your actions. I'm so sorry your family had to go through this.

Ninthdoc, thanks for making sure UD's local authorities are fully aware of the situation. I hope that they take this seriously and notify the base, as well as monitoring UD closely to ensure he does not harm anyone. Even if he does not live on base, they need to know because he has access to the base and people tend to be more trusting of others on base.

Admin's, thanks for taking this seriously and taking quick action to bar UD from the site.

I wonder, is it possible to put out a warning to other online communities to watch for his IP address and monitor activity? It would be so easy for him to do this again on another site.....

I met UD once - my hubby brought him and his son to our house for the day. He definitely gave me a creepy vibe. I'm not saying that I expected something like this from him, but from the little time I spent with him I am not completely surprised. Thank God we did not allow him to spend the night. And hopefully he does not remember how to get here. Definitely makes you think twice about inviting people over to play.....
Ninthdoc, on the other hand, I got good vibes from. Even my daughter liked him. Glad to see I can still trust my gut instincts.

[justncaseur1-2]

Sorry this happened to you Sky, It's sad to see things like this at a community we all enjoy so much.

[Fallen Templar]

Hi all I'm commandering my son's account to post on this situation. Being the Father of a 16 year old this is what troubles me every day my son uses the web,takes the train to school, Hell going to the Movie theater with his friends or Girlfriend. This event isn't brought up to much on message boards but it should. I applaud Ninthdoc for his profession and helping SKY. Skynight my deepest apoligies and I aplaud you for assertivness with your daughter & your quickness to respond to the situation with the NYPD.

My deepest prayers for Sky Nights, and family

Fallen Templars Dad

[dickflea]

Oh man!! i'm so sorry......i really detest such behaviour from adults.

Taking advantage of innocence is definately a crime.

[skyknight]

Hi all I'm commandering my son's account to post on this situation. Being the Father of a 16 year old this is what troubles me every day my son uses the web,takes the train to school, Hell going to the Movie theater with his friends or Girlfriend. This event isn't brought up to much on message boards but it should. I applaud Ninthdoc for his profession and helping SKY. Skynight my deepest apoligies and I aplaud you for assertivness with your daughter & your quickness to respond to the situation with the NYPD.

My deepest prayers for Sky Nights, and family

Fallen Templars Dad


I appreciate it very much and I also commend you for writing in. Your son is a good kid and I hope this does not harm his ability to post at all. Trust me I will let you know if he gets out of hand :wink: In all seriousness though I will say this about this community. Most of it is really great people, As a matter of fact it so happens this is a big problem but it really is the only problem I have ever had here. This site is ran by a good group of folks and the contributors who make up the framework are almost to a dot all really sincere kind folks.
My biggest worry about all of this was how parents would respond. While I am glad that you are watching what your son does I think you should also know we are watching what your son does. As I have said, he is always polite and a definite assett to our little community here. We'll keep an eye on him for you. When I need this group of folks to come through for me, they always do. I try to repay the favor and I have chastized folks before for getting outof line when kids are here.

The owner of this site Truth has done everything from turning on the language filters to removing pirated information from Hasbro. As I said these are really good guys.

[Drumline3469]

Sky my deepest sympathies to you and your family. I applaud you and all who have helped bring UD to his end at this site. If I were you I would notify Myspace and all other sites ran by someone contactable about this incident. Tom should be pretty easy to get a hold of on Myspace considering he's everyones friend. I'm spent.

[Nooblar]

:puke:

:pray:

Thanks to God and Ninthdoc that all's well! Good job to you, too Sky. That was too close.

[Karkadinn]

Bunjee linked me to this just a few minutes ago. Man, the things I miss. o.O I hope no one minds me throwing my two cents in a bit late, I just feel the need to let some of my feelings out. I think I can safely say this is the first time I've ever encountered anything on the internet that actually made me feel like my skin was crawling. Ogrish, tubgirl, the furry community's parade of exotic fetishes, Japanese snuff flicks... nothing comes close.
Now, I like to think I'm a fairly reasonable guy. For one thing, I would like to stand up for all the normal guys in their 20s who happen to like childish cartoons. ;) And I would also not be rushing to condemn someone in their 20s who had feelings for a teenager... it's stupid, but it happens all the time on the internet, and is usually just a harmless case of pure naivete, a situation that tends to rapidly fall to pieces as soon as the partners meet IRL and realize how unworkable things are. But the facts surrounding this particular incident make it unpleasantly clear that this wasn't naivete or anything of the sort, it was outright manipulation and deception, and this really, truly makes me sorrowful, not so much for the daughter as for UD... that any person would feel the need to stoop to such lengths for such a mean and base goal. My God, the man was adored around here! I never really understood why, but people liked him. Everything he did for the community, his standing in it, his connections to the people here... all burnt to ash.
I hope I never met anyone else with such screwed up priorities. I really do. It's just so... freaking... sad. Makes me think of Imax's story about the dead dog in the road that no one would bother to clean up.
Well, that's my little rant, and thank you all for tolerating it. I'm rather proud of this community for reacting like you have. Even that outrage post that I apparently missed because it was edited... man, there's times when rage is understandable and a kind of good thing, too. In particular, Skyknight, I'd like to thank you for starting this thread. That had to be the most unpleasant post you've ever made... or I would hope, anyway! If I may tenatively offer a suggestion... I think the best general prevention for this sort of thing is to simply involve yourself in your daughter's life, let her know that you care and are worthy of her trust and confidence. Because none of us can keep a watch on those we care for all the time, but if we make ourselves open for them to come to, then we can at least have the hope that they won't shun us when something like this pops up. Of course, teenagers will be teenagers, and love bloody well makes fools of us all, so I would also recommend getting her pepper spray or a taser and getting her trained in using 'em. A little backup in case of the unpredictable and the strange never hurt anyone.

[happyjosiah]

I am coming into this one late as well, but please do allow me to offer my sympathy. You are most definately in my prayers, Sky. I know you have been going through a lot in the past couple months, and this certainly cannot be helping.
Ninth, you probably know that I am a Christian and that I believe everything happens for a reason. I do not believe it was mere chance that led you in your profession to be such a prominent member of this community. I believe God placed you here to help us in our time of need.
The actions that have been taken against ultradoug are indeed warranted. However, I have often wondered if he did not actually have some kind of mental disability. If this is the case, perhaps our reaction towards him should not be one of hate, but one of genuine concern. While he will never post here again, and in fact I may not even miss him now knowing this, he still can be forgiven for the terrible things he has done and intended to do. Our anger and betrayal at this is comepletely understandable. I am not even a parent and yet I still have some sense of how hard this must be. Nevertheless, we can and will move on and be better in spite of it. It is my sincere hope that UD can someday do the same, even though it will not be here with us. Still, in many ways, how responsible he can be held is a moot point. That behavior simply will not be tolerated here.
Thanks to all of you for being the community that you are!

[mrbistro]

I know there's no point posting, but I feel the need to join the public exclamation of "Oh my God." This is just crushing. I mean yeah, in retrospect UD is wierd as hell, but lordy, I just never imagined... Like others have said, this is a wake-up call we needed, albeit at a steep price.

And as other have also said, I doubt we've seen the last of this guy. Does 'boo' ring a bell?

[Rhydderch]

I'm so sorry for you and your family Sky. It must have been really hard for all of you. :cry:

I hope your family is able to recover from the shock and betrayal you must feel. Although I do not have kids I can imagine how I would feel if I were in your position. I'm definitely glad you and your daughter were able to talk about what happened and that you were able to show her what was really going on. Sounds like you have a close bond with her! =)

Also my utmost respect goes out for you and Ninth for not only taking action to ensure the safety of your daughter, but also taking action to notify the authorities and even all of us here. So thanks to both of you for really looking out for everyone!

And as Kark mentioned some backup might be a good idea. Maybe you can review some of the simple safety guidelines with your daughter, such as making sure to walk with a friend if its late or just recognizing people and places to stay away from. It may also help if you have a picture of UD so your daughter can keep a watchful eye out. I'm sure Ninth can provide you with many more safety tips, if he has not already.

My prayers go out to you and your family, Sky. Stay safe, friend. :wink:

[molson]

Was offline all weekend, and this is the first thing I see...

Yes, I'm late; yes, I'm just another voice in the choir:

Sky, NinthDoc: It is because of the vigilance of people like you, and the Admins, that this site is the community that it is. Preserving a community sometimes takes actions that are - shall we say - unpleasant... Thank you for exposing the threat responsibly and eliminating it promptly. The site is better for it. Please accept my prayers of thanks for your daughter's safety, and for the well-being of all involved.

As a Father myself, I can only say that 1) I don't know what I'd do in a similar situation, 2) I do know what would happen if someone like that were in my home, and 3) Sky, Doc, Truth, et.al. are welcome at Casa del Molson ANYTIME!

Again, thank you for the courage to act and act rightly, and thank you for the (greater?) courage to let us know.

OK, cue the applause now...

[Pilgrim]

Praying for you Skynight, your daughter and your family (and for UD). The whole thing is sickening. But the scary thing is it can happen to any of us.

Ditto to what everyone's saying - a fresh reminder to be vigilant when participating in online exhange, great job doc, great job admins, etc.

[Euryon]

This is incredibly distressing. It was obvious UD was different, but hell, were all a bit different. Its such a shame that someones life was almost tainted; but im glad good solid parenting and vigilance won the day in this case.

Condolences that you had to go through this at all, Sky, but a silver lining is that your daughter will now be aware of such predation and is surely far more likely to defend against it herself before anyone can try and manipulate her. Kudos for handling the situation as you did.

[CupidsArt]

I remember a group of words I said this weekend at my tourny about Doug "....Yeah he's a little off but he just wants to a freind" These words now bring sadness to my eyes.

Wow I feel so ignorant, my heart feels so heavy but at the same time I'm so happy that nobody was hurt and that Sky is such a good parent.

I'm glad that we do have the admins and members that we do to help keep this site safe.

I certainly hope UD is able to find some help, I also hope that nothing like this involving him has happened before.

My mind is a cluster of betrayal, anger and sadness....I think that's all the more I can say. :(

[Velenne]

Skin crawling...ya I'd describe my initial reaction that way too.

But now? I've said it elsewhere this morning but I'll reiterate here how proud I am of Sky, the admins and Ninth for handling this so effectively. Many sites claim to be family-friendly, but when the chips were down, you guys came through in a big way.

Thank you, but I'm just crabby old ninthdoc.

Yeah, but in this case, that's WHY you're a hero.

Sorry, you're stuck with it. At least for a while. I oughta slap a 'BIG darn HERO' sticker on your avatar.

I'll second that!

[DarkSpade]

It's odd, but when I first saw the title of this thread I thought it was a joke title. However, as I continued to open other threads in different tabs, something told me it was for real and I went back to read it.


There is a silver lineing here. Sky's children(and hopefully their friends too) have learned a very valuable lesson before it was too late. I hope we all did.

[skyknight]

It's odd, but when I first saw the title of this thread I thought it was a joke title. However, as I continued to open other threads in different tabs, something told me it was for real and I went back to read it.


There is a silver lineing here. Sky's children(and hopefully their friends too) have learned a very valuable lesson before it was too late. I hope we all did.

That is as true a statement as I have seen so far. I sometimes feel bad about prying into my kids personal space but if I had not in this case I do not know. I like to think my daughter would have smartened up and came and got me but who knows. As for my daughter if there is one silver lining to this story I believe she did learn a valuable life lesson from all of this. i can honestly say that this shook her pretty good. It was definitely a wake up call for me and mine. And this all happeend with teen filters on, computer in a family area where all could see, and just right under our noses. I was glad to see Fallen Templars Dad actually get in here and read this thread. That was really the only way I found out myself.

[allskulls]

I reiterate the sentiments of others here...Sky, ninth and all admins involved are to be commended. It may sound strange but I am thankful that this guy decided to target someone with a great dad like you, Sky. You may not have stopped him completely, but with the authorities watchful eye on him now, he is definately hindered.

Admins- Could we get rid of all of his threads please?

[truth]

Admins- Could we get rid of all of his threads please?

Sorry, but no. They will fade off into history soon enough on their own. There is no reason to pretend that he was never here and nothing ever happened. On the contrary we should all take the experience with us as a community reminder. Besides the threads he started were posted to with other member's opinons and thoughts and such, and they don't deserve to have that wiped along with it. Just deleting his posts will be both a pain and leave confusing holes.

[allskulls]

Truth- Understood.

[Finrod]

I'll say ditto to most everyone else, especially HappyJosiah above.

My daughter just turned 8 and hasn't gotten to the point of using the internet very much yet (besides java games). I've definitely been trying to think ahead to that, though, and this sad situation definitely helps me understand what I need to do.

[copronymous]

Sorry, but no. They will fade off into history soon enough on their own. There is no reason to pretend that he was never here and nothing ever happened. On the contrary we should all take the experience with us as a community reminder. Besides the threads he started were posted to with other member's opinons and thoughts and such, and they don't deserve to have that wiped along with it. Just deleting his posts will be both a pain and leave confusing holes.^^^A great post, and a great point of view.
He's gone at my little place too. It sickens me that he created one of those "Age of Consent" posts over there too. It's really adult, but still, most of us have kids.
And 'Scapers is REALLY kid friendly, given the abundance of good admin around here.
Thanks for dealing with it so quickly, and to ninthdoc for being the good guy he is.

Sorry, skyknight. Sorry.

[skyknight]

I agree wholeheartedly with Truth on this one. I say leave his posts. This is not something I am running from or hiding from. As I told my daughter as long as she keeps me informed and asks for help I will always be there no matter what. It is when they go outside of your protective blanket and start doing things like this that you cannot aid them. Now that I know, this Ud stuff does not bother me at all. First I do not believe he will show up, second if he does I will take care of it in no uncertain terms.
I guess what I am trying to say is that there is some good here as well. My daughter being 16 has been trying to gain more and more independence. As parents we try to give her her space as well just under scrutiny. She overstepped this time and she knows it. It has actually driven her back to us a bit and i don't think she is now quite so ready to run her own life. Not that she ever really was but at least I gave the appearance she was. She still has many of the freedoms she had before this experience but I have already watched her coming to us more often these last few weeks. Sometimes it is good for your kids to almost fall on their face so you can still help pick them up as you did when they were little. You know you will always be there but sometimes they need to be reminded of it. My daughter I think has been reminded.

[markwars]

I am in shock. :shock:

Sure UD was a weirdo, but damn. I feel so freaking creeped out that I've had my son at events with him. Having met UD, his wife and son I can't say that I didn't get a weird vibe - I've even discussed it with some folks from here offline. I just felt that for some reason things weren't right or at least as they seemed. Perhaps I should have said more publicly, but that wouldn't have been my place or fair to Doug and his family.

As a father of younger children this is really a wake up call for me. I have taken for granted the safety that my children are surrounded by. With a stay at home mom and parents who rarely get out on their own, my kids are almost always with at least one of their parents. Now that they are growing up I realize this idyllic situation is due to end - probably long before I am ready. With internet communications being what they are today pre-teens and teens are really at risk. And I guess I've always known that a situation like this could happen, but I've chosen to not consider the very real possibility of it actually occurring. Now it has and I feel sickened by it. :(

To all that have said these kinds of things need to be discussed, I couldn't agree more. Everyone that is under 18 needs to hear this. Everyone that has children needs to hear this. And frankly we need to make sure that the other pedophiles that are here reading this site (and there are others to be sure) know that we are vigilant. Sure we are a friendly trusting group, but we are not fools with our collective head stuck in the sand. Other potential predators need to know that we are aware.

Thank you so much for sharing this Skyknight. This could not have been easy for you or your family. It took tremendous courage to open up after such an egregious violation of your safety and privacy. I'm not sure I could have done the same though I hope I could.

Thank you also to the staff for encouraging intelligent discussion of this situation. It will be for the betterment of our entire community.

And if I didn't love you before ninthdoc, I do now. Thanks for being so willing to help even when you're off duty.

[mrbistro]

Sorry, but no. They will fade off into history soon enough on their own. There is no reason to pretend that he was never here and nothing ever happened. On the contrary we should all take the experience with us as a community reminder.

Thank you. I for one find this quite painful, but I in no way want our reminder of what happened to go away. We're a tight community, but it is important to every now and then have a reminder that one of our own betrayed our trust and tried to hurt someone. To me this is almost like a death. There is of course the horrible shock of what UD tried to do, but there is also the shock that a staple of our community is gone, and we (hopefully) will not see him again. To have every record of him disappear would be wrong. The sadness is greater because UD was someone we cared about.

[Annerios]

This is some horrible stuff to come back to after spending all weekend celebrating my daughter's B-day.

I'm glad to see that appropriate action has been taken.

My wife and I are often accused of being overprotective, but I'd rather be wary than suffer the consequences for lack of vigilance.

[happyjosiah]

If anyone cares, Ultradoug is claiming innocence in this. I talked to him this morning and he said that the person who sent all the messages and such was a person who he trusted with his password. Near as I can tell, it was a woman he met online and became friends with. He gave her his passwords (don't know WHY). She had a crush on him and asked him out. He said no because he was married. She got revenge on him by using his accounts for the stuff above.
I know that sounds really fishy. I'm not very inclined to beleive it myself. I just thought at least you guys ought to hear the other side.

[Slade]

There is nothing for me to add to this post a few short thoughts:

Yahweh bless this moment and rejoice in the continued safety of our friends and families,

Yahweh bless those true warriors, those men and women who watch over us as shepards and protect us from the wolves of evil that rest in the hearts of humanity, and which must be stood against.

Finally, thank you for this post of explanation and to all of those involved for your words and actions.

[skyknight]

Not just a paswword Happy but tons of passwords and user names since he was playing hopscotch from site to site. Also as I have said this person knew alot of details on Dougs personal life. Not to mention those messages, pm's and emails, Im's were all in perfect Doug style. I think anyone confronted with this would claim their innocence. If this is true what he is saying then he needs to go right to the Killeen PD and turn this woman in. How much do you want to bet that is not going to happen.

[Bannister]

Well, I might as well put in my thoughts on this.

I am seeing this for the first time this morning and I am feeling nothing short of nauseas. Doug was certainly an odd guy but who here isn't?? Maybe I am more naive than I would like to admit but I honestly never saw that one coming.

Doug and I have IMed numerous times and he is even currently working on a project for me. It is a relationship that as far as I am concerned has come to an end.

One thing that I simply won't tollerate is those who take advantage of and/or abuse women and children. All I can hope is that this is a wake up call to Doug to go and get some serious help.

Sky I think your family is lucky to have a father like you who is so concerned about their safety. As a father of a 16 year old daughter, a 13 year old son and a 4 year old daughter I will always err on the side of caution when it comes to my kids. I think far to many people assume far to much when it comes to their childrens well being.

Ninth, while I won't say that I love you, I am 99.999% sure you are a great guy.

Bannister

[ninthdoc]

If anyone cares, Ultradoug is claiming innocence in this. I talked to him this morning and he said that the person who sent all the messages and such was a person who he trusted with his password. Near as I can tell, it was a woman he met online and became friends with. He gave her his passwords (don't know WHY). She had a crush on him and asked him out. He said no because he was married. She got revenge on him by using his accounts for the stuff above.
I know that sounds really fishy. I'm not very inclined to beleive it myself. I just thought at least you guys ought to hear the other side.

HJ, I have made mention of this already and explained my thoughts and experience in matters such as this. Ultimately, whether through what skyknight and I believe, or through what UD says, it was his own poor judgement that caused this whole issue. I have explained that to UD via chat. I also mentioned that anyone who wanted his side of it could most likely find a way to contact him off of this site. I also gave a warning that one must always consider the nature of the beast. The nature of this one is manipulation.

I'm not willing to convict UD of a criminal offense based upon what information we have, but it is enough, whether whether you believe he is guilty or himself a victim, to get him banned. You have to remember that by his own words, it was his irresponsibility that brought this upon himself. You have to believe me when I say that this is not fun on my end either.

[bushi96]

Ask any inmate in prison- they are ALL innocent. Whatever.

[happyjosiah]

Understood. In either case he is to blame, but it is his job to pull himself out of this if he truly is innocent. As mentioned, I don't think we should hold our collective breath on him doing this. Denial seems like the rational response for him at this point.

[AgentX-127]

First,
Thanks to Skyknight, Truth, Ninthdoc. What you have done is a good thing that will help many people, I am sure.

Second,
I was not surprised by this.
Yesterday my brother called to tell me about all this, but I was still sleeping, so he talked to my wife. When she told me a member of the Heroscapers site was in trouble for soliciting a minor, I knew exactly who it was.

I have noticed danger signs. The japanese schoolgirl anime fetish is one. Also, I didn't like how he openly flirted with a new female member. I didn't buy his "online persona" excuse either. Then there were all the times he complained about how no girls would post their pictures on this site.

A few months ago UD was running a Last Unit Standing game, and he offered bonuses to those who could answer trivia questions. The catch was that all the triva was from his videos, his "epics." Well, I'm a sucker, and I watched every one of his videos looking for the trivia answers.

One of those videos bothered me a lot. I think it was called "The Diva."
(EDITED: No, NOT "The Diva" epic but another video featuring the girl that was only on UD's YouTube page.) That video featured a picture of a happy looking little girl sitting on the floor next to a Heroscape board. I think it was a daughter of another member here or from a previous HS site.
The theme of that video seemed to be like a love letter. It was disturbing. That video has disappeared from Youtube now, but I'm sure some others have seen it, too. (Please speak up if you know what I am talking about here.)

Anyway, I've had grave doubts about UD ever since.

Even a while back when some of you were posting pictures of your families here (or back on the HQ,) I chose not to, in part because I had UD in the back of my mind.

This incident has helped me illustrate the lessons I have been trying to impart on my own daughter. She has done some things on the internet that I have not been happy about (posting her name, school, picture on one of those friend network sites.)

HJ, I know that you mean the best when you introduce an element of doubt, but this isn't a court of law, it is a private place (as we have been reminded when others have been banned for less heineous actions.) I think it's high time we all lay the cards out on the table about this former friend.

I have had some experience working with sexual offenders in a therapuetic setting. I have read their treatment charts, and worse, their sexual fantasy journals. I gained an insight into disturbed minds obsessed with sex, and (usually) violence. Unfortunately, I was changed forever after being exposed to the sexual fantasies (and offenses) of these people. There is a paranoia that will remain with me forever, as long as I am responsible for the safety of my wife or daughter. I didn't remain in the job for long, nor did I believe that there was much hope for success in treating the sexual offenders.

Anyhow, my background gives me a little insight here. Like I said, I've seen danger signs with UD before now. I wondered if I was being too paranoid, but thanks to Skyknight I realize that my instincts were right on.

One of the things that is difficult for people to reconcile is the nature of the disarmingly innocent, childlike personality of some sexual predators. This type of sexual predator really feels that he loves and understands children and that any sexual feelings that come about are (ugh,) natural. They seem so innocent and niave that people will want to come to their defense. I think that happened in the past with UD, but I am glad that his cover is blown.

Again,
Skyknight, thanks for sharing this with us.

[happyjosiah]

I also remember the Diva video. I personally at that time took it at him making fun of all the people (not just UD, I might add) who were basically hitting on her. I think she might have been a friend of Truth's or something. Anyway, thinking back on it NOW I can see what was going on. But hindsight is 20/20.
I do not mean to defend his actions. I just would hate if by some .0001% chance it wasn't true. All accounts seem to indicate that even that low percentage is dwindling as well. Pretty hard to come to grips with.
Also, what's the age of consent thread people are talking about?

[reapersaurus]

umm.

This is VERY disturbing to me.

UD is a different kind of personality, and certainly got across a tendency towards the school-age japanese girl fetish, but I sure hope the evidence is clear, and he's been contacted by an Admin and dealt with personally.

Not because he deserves to be dealt with straight-up if it's true, but because you don't want him thinking he was done an end-around on, or make him feel like he didn't have a chance to defend himself to SOMEone.

UD has the capability of reading this site again, and even joining it again as a different person. I'm pretty sure he has the know-how and energy to, if he feels he has something more to say.

All, very disturbing. Not what I was expecting to catch up on this morning.Reaper, I would hope that you trust the admins of this site to deal with things in an upright manner.bunjee/truth (other people may ignore this post at will):

I'm posting just to clear this up (unfortunately it's in the public now - I hadn't clarified before, because I didn't think it was necessary) :

I do trust the admins of the site that they dealt with this appropriately.
I didn't question them with my wording - it was conversational typing (kinda like "I hope it was a clean arrest/kill"), leading into the point, which was agreed with by many people that great care and concern should be taken with UD in particular, because he very well may come back.

BTW, the previous sentence could easily be twisted to me saying "great care was not taken with UD" if someone WANTED. :roll: (The English language is eminently capable of being able to be taken a different way if someone attempts to. Heck, I could try to manufacture an insult that I just said some people don't know how to read the English language, and therefore I said bunjee was illiterate, or some other attack, if I wanted.)
Similarly, I didn't intend that the admins are idiots who don't know anything about the internet. :headshake:

Please don't manufacture a complaint where there was none - do you need me to explicitly state that the admins did a good job?

Very well.

I think there was great investigation and follow-thru on this UD issue, and it has been taken care of in an exemplary way.

Hopefully that will be clear- but who knows, if people put words in my mouth.
Hopefully this also makes an important point - please, Admins or anyone, don't manufacture intent when someone says "I hope the evidence is clear in this case" in the middle of a multi-paragraph internet post.

[CupidsArt]

I also remember the Diva video. I personally at that time took it at him making fun of all the people (not just UD, I might add) who were basically hitting on her. I think she might have been a friend of Truth's or something. Anyway, thinking back on it NOW I can see what was going on. But hindsight is 20/20.
I do not mean to defend his actions. I just would hate if by some .0001% chance it wasn't true. All accounts seem to indicate that even that low percentage is dwindling as well. Pretty hard to come to grips with.
Also, what's the age of consent thread people are talking about?

I was wondering the same thing.

[reapersaurus]

AgentX - yes, I remember the incident you are referring to and I will provide more information/context (the little girl love letter thing).
I agree that it was disturbing.

Background info: (all this is from my memory, so don't sue me)
Near the end of .net, we learned about the contest winner - the little girl that wrote Ki-Mo-Shi. Her mother (who I'm wondering her reaction, but hope she doesn;t see this) posted a hello, and talked about her (rightful) pride in her daughter's accomplishment. There was a picture of the girl smiling and happy.

UD immediately took her pic and photo-chopped it and made an avatar of her daughter, saying/thinking "UD is so dreamy!"

I was so creeped out by it, and concerned about it, that I even stepped out of character, so to speak, on the boards, and threw down an immediate demand that he take it down, explaining why in PM and publically, that it wasn't cool or funny - not letting up until he took it down. He never understood why it could be considered creepy. :roll:

Second UD information -
Maybe even some admins are not aware, but I showed truth the depths of UD's dangerous side, internet-wise.
Basically, if you Admins blow off UD and think an IP ban is gonna incapacitate him, you should read the PM he sent me detailing how he "used to" get IRC hacker "buddies" and bomb channels to death, for the "randomness" of it.

Hopefully this second time bringing up this UD danger, it won't be perceived as me attacking the Admins.
I would be happy to forward the very disconcerting PM to anyone who wants to act on it to potentially defend this board.

[CornPuff]

I'm a bit worried at all the 'I saw it coming' posts. Even if we all knew the offender profile, its not like it made him guilty. UD's actions and his actions alone made him guilty, not any 'hints' or foreshadowing.

There was a senior at my college cuffed and arrested out of his dorm room for dealing kiddie porn. If you asked anyone that knew him, there were no signs. I would back this up a little more, but I don't have the stomach to do much research into statistics and profiles now...

Its comforting to think we can see them coming, but usually we can't.

I just hope UD gets better. Its sad to know someone that that could do something like this, and not be able to help.

Still, I very much understand why we need to stonewall UD out of this community. Major kudos to Sky and Ninth for the uncomfortable and necessary work they did, and good jobs by the admins for taking the necessary steps to keep this place safe.

[ninthdoc]

There exists another forum site that some users here go to along with others that are personal friends of copronymous. It is not family friendly and gets pretty raunchy at times. UD had posted a thread called The Age of Consent on that site. It was an examination and commentary on the different ages of consent laws in different parts of the country.

It would have been standard fare for that website (and actually quite clean in comparison), if you did not read it from my perspective already having started my investigation into this matter. Armed with this knowledge, the post takes on a whole other meaning in its intent.

Several members here have other forums they post to across the internet, as most of you know. UD has his own forum, somewhere along the way. We just happened to be on that one and see UD's post as monkeyballs. Also, for the record, even when posting as monkeyballs, UD's standard characteristics of posting show through. I was able to spot him in less than a minute. Which only solidified my belief that he is not telling the truth in his current denials.

[ninthdoc]

Second UD information -
Maybe even some admins are not aware, but I showed truth the depths of UD's dangerous side, internet-wise.
Basically, if you Admins blow off UD and think an IP ban is gonna incapacitate him, you should read the PM he sent me detailing how he "used to" get IRC hacker "buddies" and bomb channels to death, for the "randomness" of it.

Hopefully this second time bringing up this UD danger, it won't be perceived as me attacking the Admins.
I would be happy to forward the very disconcerting PM to anyone who wants to act on it to potentially defend this board.

At the risk of upsetting you, reaper, I've seen said PM. I don't want you to be upset, but it was forwarded to me by a very concerned person when they learned you'd received it. It was not intended as a violation of your privacy, but rather to alert me to a potential problem with UD.

I sincerely hope that despite all the personal problems that you and I have had in the past year, you can accept this as it was intended and not feel that someone has violated your trust. I can say with absolute certainty, that this was done to benefit the community and not to offend you.

Please, let me say that I agree with your assessment of that PM and I don't want to be the cause of any bad blood between you and anyone else by my revealing this. Sometimes in intelligence work, you have to disavow knowledge of how you came into possession of some important information. I don't want anyone getting hurt over this. I am being absolutely sincere in this.

[truth]

HSDiva is/was a friend of mine. She's was the girlfriend of one of the youth that play HS with us. She was 16 years old then (17 now) I thought it odd and told her to watch out with him, when I learned of UD's recent actions I immediately let her know to block him on anything he was able to contact her on.

[reapersaurus]

Please, let me say that I agree with your assessment of that PMThat's the important part about your post.

I am GLAD that PM was treated as an important sign of caution by SOMEone.

Let me be VERY clear - I loathe posting PM's - I don't post them even privately unless it is absoultely necessary to clear things up or provide important information.

I shared that disturbing PM with a couple specific people with the express purpose of making them informed that UD is not as "random" and "happy-go-lucky" as many people perceive him.
He has a dark, nihilistic side that I'm glad he kept in check and became a contributor of levity to this community.

Unfortunately, it appears he fell victim to a darker part of his personalities. He discussed different roles he takes online, and I tried to influence him to take the lighter role.

And the more people here refer to him with lines like "Chester Molester", etc - the more likely him dedicating lots of energies in (attempting to) take this site down becomes.

[truth]

Please, let me say that I agree with your assessment of that PMThat's the important part about your post.

I am GLAD that PM was treated as an important sign of caution by SOMEone.

Let me be VERY clear - I loathe posting PM's - I don't post them even privately unless it is absoultely necessary to clear things up or provide important information.

I shared that disturbing PM with a couple specific people with the express purpose of making them informed that UD is not as "random" and "happy-go-lucky" as many people perceive him.
He has a dark, nihilistic side that I'm glad he kept in check and became a contributor of levity to this community.

Unfortunately, it appears he fell victim to a darker part of his personalities. He discussed different roles he takes online, and I tried to influence him to take the lighter role.

And the more people here refer to him with lines like "Chester Molester", etc - the more likely him dedicating lots of energies in (attempting to) take this site down becomes.

Umm incase you hadn't noticed we the admin staff have been taking down such comments and have stated that they will not be tolerated.

[InfinityMax]

The crappy thing here is that, outside being a borderline pedophile (or maybe full-blown, but 16 ain't exactly 9), Doug wasn't a bad guy. Yeah, he was weird. Yeah, he was into high school chicks. And yeah, every time I met him he smelled like he just finished a marathon - two days earlier. And yeah, he talked to his toys.

But he also took the time to tape my son's birthday party at the game store, edit it and email it to me. He was a horrid artist, but he made an attempt to make special things for people he liked.

The thing is, a dude who does one thing wrong isn't a monster. He's got a problem, sure, but I can't hate him for it. I could punch him in the face, but that would just be a response to this one particular thing, and we would both know he's got it coming to him. Hell, if either Killeen or NY coppers wanted to see some justice, they would have figured out a way to arrest him, and he would have had THAT coming to him. If Skyknight flew out to Killeen and exacted some baseball bat justice, he would have THAT coming to him, and I would tell anyone that asked that Skyknight did the right thing. But being sickened by a crime and hating a guy who is really just totally pitiable are not the same thing.

There was this bearded dude once who said something like, 'let the first one of you who hasn't done something wrong chuck the first rock.' That might be a paraphrase. I've done some pretty crappy things to people before. I'm no white knight. No, I haven't done anything this universally reviled, and I take considerable exception to people who prey on children, but I can't claim to be a better man. Just one with more socially acceptable problems.

And while I'm flipping around on this moral hotplate like a landed trout, let me add this - I don't believe for even half a second that this was anyone but Doug. Of course he denies it - that's the only way to avoid doing time. Everyone in prison is innocent, as someone pointed out earlier. His alibi is thinner than gasoline and twice as stinky. I have trouble believing he's being framed by a jilted lover. I would very much like to see him produce this woman scorned.

[reapersaurus]

And the more people here refer to him with lines like "Chester Molester", etc - the more likely him dedicating lots of energies in (attempting to) take this site down becomes.

Umm incase you hadn't noticed we the admin staff have been taking down such comments and have stated that they will not be tolerated.*sigh*

I was simply trying to warn the HSers members to be aware of the connection between pissing off Ultradoug and the potential of him attacking the website in (what he could perceive as) retaliation.

There was a general edict that "hateful things shouldn't be said on this site."
I was attempting to give bigger reasons to members so they get an inkling as to why - I wasn't insinuating that admins aren't doing anything, or similar thoughts.

[bunjee]

umm.

This is VERY disturbing to me.

UD is a different kind of personality, and certainly got across a tendency towards the school-age japanese girl fetish, but I sure hope the evidence is clear, and he's been contacted by an Admin and dealt with personally.

Not because he deserves to be dealt with straight-up if it's true, but because you don't want him thinking he was done an end-around on, or make him feel like he didn't have a chance to defend himself to SOMEone.

UD has the capability of reading this site again, and even joining it again as a different person. I'm pretty sure he has the know-how and energy to, if he feels he has something more to say.

All, very disturbing. Not what I was expecting to catch up on this morning.Reaper, I would hope that you trust the admins of this site to deal with things in an upright manner.bunjee/truth (other people may ignore this post at will):

I'm posting just to clear this up (unfortunately it's in the public now - I hadn't clarified before, because I didn't think it was necessary) :

I do trust the admins of the site that they dealt with this appropriately.
I didn't question them with my wording - it was conversational typing (kinda like "I hope it was a clean arrest/kill"), leading into the point, which was agreed with by many people that great care and concern should be taken with UD in particular, because he very well may come back.

BTW, the previous sentence could easily be twisted to me saying "great care was not taken with UD" if someone WANTED. :roll: (The English language is eminently capable of being able to be taken a different way if someone attempts to. Heck, I could try to manufacture an insult that I just said some people don't know how to read the English language, and therefore I said bunjee was illiterate, or some other attack, if I wanted.)
Similarly, I didn't intend that the admins are idiots who don't know anything about the internet. :headshake:

Please don't manufacture a complaint where there was none - do you need me to explicitly state that the admins did a good job?

Very well.

I think there was great investigation and follow-thru on this UD issue, and it has been taken care of in an exemplary way.

Hopefully that will be clear- but who knows, if people put words in my mouth.
Hopefully this also makes an important point - please, Admins or anyone, don't manufacture intent when someone says "I hope the evidence is clear in this case" in the middle of a multi-paragraph internet post.Hey Reaps,

Actually, I only asked for clarification because when I first read it, I misread it and realized that others may do the same. I did not think that you were finding fault, but clarified for clarities sake.

[happyjosiah]

As for him producing the imaginary woman, I talked to him on www.kingdomofloathing.com, where we both have accounts. He pointed me to her account on there. Hers was made a week after his. Makes me suspect some multi-user thing (and I know he DOES have multiple accounts on that site, even if this girls ISN'T one of them).

[LilNewbie]

The crappy thing here is that, outside being a borderline pedophile (or maybe full-blown, but 16 ain't exactly 9), Doug wasn't a bad guy. Yeah, he was weird. Yeah, he was into high school chicks. And yeah, every time I met him he smelled like he just finished a marathon - two days earlier. And yeah, he talked to his toys.

...

And while I'm flipping around on this moral hotplate like a landed trout, let me add this - I don't believe for even half a second that this was anyone but Doug. Of course he denies it - that's the only way to avoid doing time. Everyone in prison is innocent, as someone pointed out earlier. His alibi is thinner than gasoline and twice as stinky. I have trouble believing he's being framed by a jilted lover. I would very much like to see him produce this woman scorned.

Great post, IMAX! I'm glad that Sky was diligent and cared enough for his daughter to take an interest in her communications. I'm also glad that Ninth made himself available to help out in the situation. This situation has shaken all of us here but we will get through this tough time. What can we take from this situation? We have all learned to be more vigilant. That is a good thing. We will not let fear run rampant but replace it with discernment and wisdom. This is also a good thing. My hope and prayer for UD is that he seeks out professional help.

Newb.

[AmishBurrito]

So there were people saying they were posting late on page 5, but i just thought i'd join in and say I hope everything works out well for you Sky, you seemed to handle everything perfectly when you found out. Also thanks to the admins and Ninth for all they've done.

I love this site, and this site is part of the main reason my friends and I are so addicted to heroscape now, I'm glad the community is sticking together and working to fix things.

[deliverymanxas]

Not to give anybody any ideas...but if things do, which hopefully they dont, get taken into your own hands...you should watch Saw, and Saw II before you punish him for contacting your daughter.
This is a topic I feel very, VERY strong about. Older men trying to get with girls that are younger than 19 need nothing less than their manhood removed.
I have a daughter, and if I ever found out that one of those monsters were stalking, or trying to get into physical activities of any kind with her; that person would be in a world of trouble showing up at or around my house.
I should end this post...

[Drumline3469]

Not saying I condone violence even if the deeds commited were horrible, but I'd watch Hostel. On the other hand I think Sky and Ninth handles this situation perfectly and rest assured Sky that if the authorities find anything the guys in jail will do more to him than you can imagine. I'm spent.

[ninthdoc]

The crappy thing here is that, outside being a borderline pedophile (or maybe full-blown, but 16 ain't exactly 9)

The word for this is actually hebophilia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebophilia).

[Jonathan]

Wow.

Doug does need our prayers, badly, as do his wife and kids. I hope that there is a positive end to this story for him, but it will take a long road of recovery. And frankly, a lot of support. Doug needs to be kept away from possible temptation, and if he's sitting at home surfing the web all day, this is not an easy thing to accomplish.


Thanks to Sky for being an excellent father.

Thanks to Ninth for being a true officer of the law.

Thanks to this community for staying informed, and staying together.

[copronymous]

Regarding the Age Consent topic...there is the first post (topic started by UD on my site):
should all laws of age consent be the same?

heres a list that might be outdated (?) that shows other stats laws about age laws.

<hyperlink regarding age laws removed by copronymous>

what the?! not 18 for all states, should it just be 16 then?
The conversation was surprisingly mild and mature, but WOW disturbing in hindsight.

[Clockwork_Knight]

:shock: wow, just wow :shock:


I hope you and your family are able to recover from the shock and betrayal you must feel. I don’t have kids myself but I can pretty well imagine what you must feel like.

I’ve talked to UD on YIM more then a few times and he came off as some one who was starting to circle the drain to Looney town if you know what I mean. This whole mess is usually a pie I don’t like sticking my finger until I hear both sides of the story but I’m inclined to believe Sky.

Preying on a kid. That’s just creepy. Really creepy and wrong.

[happyjosiah]

I just wanted to say that I also completely agreed with your post Imax. That is a good perspective to have.

...

The thing that scares me about the age of consent posting is that in some ways I feel the same way about age of consent laws. They are weird. I mean, in Mexico the age is 12. An 18 year old can get rape charges for having sex with a 17-year old in Texas and be fine with a 12-year old in Mexico. I know we are talking about different countries and cultures, but it even varies state to state. Saying stuff about the hypocrisy of that seems innocent enough, but when stuff like this comes up it just kinda makes you shiver. I wouldn't have given it a second thought.

...

Not much has been made of this, so perhaps I misunderstood something, but am I correct in thinking that Ninth said UD was already charged/convicted with pedophilia/hebophelia even before the sky's daughter incident?

[toddrew]

Not much has been made of this, so perhaps I misunderstood something, but am I correct in thinking that Ninth said UD was already charged/convicted with pedophilia/hebophelia even before the sky's daughter incident?

I think funrun was referring to someone other than UD - not asking you to say who, by any means, but is that the case, fun?

[Malechi]

Yes, funrun was referring to someone other than UD. That person is not and never was a member here at 'scapers, that person was a member of a previous incarnation (HQ).

[Buddy Lee]

I've read through this post. I have a few things to say but I will keep it succinct (Yeah, I know :wink:)

My only comment would be to ask each parent to insure that their relationship with their children is such that the children will come to them for advice and quidance before anything happens. I hope that the involved parents (and even the uninvolved ones) will be in such a position where the children recognize the value of their (the parent's) sage advice.

Buddy Lee

[Nwojedi]

skynight, I can imagine something like this would be upsetting, and when my daughter starts to hit her teens, i'll be having an ulcer every single day i'm sure.

But at the same token. 16 year old girls know what they are doing. they arn't kids anymore. Some states 16 is legal age of concent. You remember when you were a teenager and dated 15-17 year old girls? How they acted. I know it's not the way you want to picture your own daughter behaving, but most of them arn't innocent by any means. But they do have somewhat decent judgement. Take a good LOOK at UD. Would you honestly think, that a 16 year old girl would find interest in UD when she would see him? I don't. I have a feeling he would have been denied. Now I can understand your concern, as mine would be the same. cuz some of them can be forceful and a big threat. I can't picture UD being a physical threat. Lonely and fasinated with teens. yes. But aggressive. Not really.
I think you did the right thing. At the same time, there are two guilty parties involved. and neither are as innocent as you'd like to believe. The internet is a dangerous place for teens in general. I can't imagine how hard it's going to be to monitor this thing, when my daughter is old enough to be on it. I'm going to have to set it up like fort knox.

Just my .02.

Btw, i'm not defending UD in anyway. My opinions when it comes to liking UD were neutral. Didn't bother me, and didn't **** me off either. So this is comming from a completely neutral standpoint.

[feekonea]

wow, weve been hit big with this website, shakey and UD. I cant beleive he would do something like that. My condolences, Skynight.

[Nwojedi]

what happened with shakey?

[Agent Minivann]

Was offline all weekend, and this is the first thing I see...


Same here. Wow. I am in total shock.

It's odd, but when I first saw the title of this thread I thought it was a joke title. However, as I continued to open other threads in different tabs, something told me it was for real and I went back to read it.


That was my first thought as well. Especially given some of the threads in the past. I liked UD. He's different, but I always thought he was an all right guy. I almost feel betrayed. Sure it has to pale in comparison to how betrayed you must feel, Sky, but I still feel betrayed. Sky, Ninth, et al. you earned some serious respect here. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.

[mrbistro]

As for him producing the imaginary woman, I talked to him on www.kingdomofloathing.com, where we both have accounts. He pointed me to her account on there. Hers was made a week after his. Makes me suspect some multi-user thing (and I know he DOES have multiple accounts on that site, even if this girls ISN'T one of them).

I talked with Doug on occasion on KoL as well. One day I checked out his guild and was suprised to see a ton of HQers there (it was HQ back then). Truth, Grungebob and many others were there. When I asked Doug about it he bashfully admitted they were all him (and he had a few). I remember being struck by how creepy and how sad it seemed. Creepy because it was bordeline impersonation, and seemed almost obsessive. Sad because it was clear he was trying to create a stable of friends that he seemed to lack. Doug is a huge multiuser on KoL and has proven time and time again that he does the same thing here and elsewhere.

[bushi96]

Nwojedi I think you are way off base here. A late 20's guy does not, ever, travel across the county to meet a 16 year old and not have bad intentions planned. And I dont care how harmless they seem to us adults, I guarantee rejection would not be handled in a gentleman like manner. And thats the best case scenario *shudder*.

You have a daughter, now would be a good time to start practicing the protective father routine.

[Rhydderch]

At the same time, there are two guilty parties involved.

I beg to differ. Your statement sounds too much like: the victim is always guilty as well. While it may be the case sometimes I really don't think its fair to make a blanket statement, especially about someone you do not know.

If you take a look at the history of p sychology many of the people who have had disorders can be VERY manipulative and have taken advantage of people who "should have known better" and I mean army personnel, police officers and detectives. I've heard the stories and I've seen it happen.

Now we take a 16 year old girl and you have someone who is at a very impressionable age. In addition many of the girls might think or act like they are no longer kids but really... they still are. That goes for any kid and some adults, in my opinion. Just because you're no longer innocent, whatever you take that to mean, doesn't mean you have any idea what you're doing.

So while I understand what you're saying I really have to disagree. I think its a very unfair judgement, one that borders on the logic of: she was only raped because she was asking for it. Not the same argument I know but it seems perilously close, and I for one cannot agree with a logic which victimizes the victims by placing guilt on their heads. Can you open yourself to a dangerous situation? Yes. Do I think it makes you guilty? No. It just means all of us, even the best of us, can make mistakes:

I was told the exact same thing by my wife the day that I went to Killeen to pick up UD, with my own son. I began having the same thoughts, which is why I kept calling markwars and Rychean to tell them our progress on the way back. Now, don't I look like the poster child for things you shouldn't do on the internet? :brickwall:

If something had happened I suppose you could say Ninth was guilty because he placed his son in a potentially dangerous situation but I hope you can agree when I say it would be better called an error in judgement and serves as a prime example that we can never be too careful.

Ninthdoc: I hope you don't mind my quoting you to illustrate a point. I think it is important to show that all of us can make mistakes, even someone as well versed in internet and public security as you. Once again, thanks for all your effort in enlightening all of us. :bowdown:

[Karkadinn]

A late 20's guy does not, ever, travel across the county to meet a 16 year old and not have bad intentions planned.

Firstly, I think you strongly underestimate the power of simple human naivete, particularly where the internet is concerned. Secondly, I find it mildly disturbing that the concept of people having friendships across age gaps does not even occur to you as a possibility.

[Rhydderch]

Nwojedi I think you are way off base here. A late 20's guy does not, ever, travel across the county to meet a 16 year old and not have bad intentions planned. And I dont care how harmless they seem to us adults...

As Kark said that might be a bit extreme. Heck the late 20s guy could be the father of the 16 year old! In the context of the conversation though I agree with you bushi96.

While I cannot judge UD individually I can say its a dangerous assumption to say people who have teenager fantasies, and who have made an effort to act them out, are all harmless. I'm certain the Catholic priest accused of molesting a child seemed perfectly harmless as well...

As I said I can't judge anyone individually and believe people do deserve a chance and second chances, but that does not mean we should not be cautious, especially when it comes to our own safety or that of our families.

[bushi96]

Come on, wise up. Age gaps and motel rooms do not belong in a plutonic friendship.

[Rhydderch]

Come on, wise up. Age gaps and motel rooms do not belong in a plutonic friendship.

I think Kark was responding to your comment outside of the current context since your statement was a blanket statement. For instance: if your 27 year old uncle were to visit your 16 year old cousin his intentions are probably pretty safe. He just means your statement might be a little too open.

Now if you add in specifics such as motel rooms and secret love letters, along with the age gap and a potential affair then I'm pretty sure Kark would agree with you.

[Karkadinn]

I've seen adults fall for teenagers on the internet all the time. It's usually not a big deal because the adults are A) Not married, and B) Not trying to keep it a secret from anyone. Usually, it's just a typical case of internet soap opera drama that dies as soon as the initial lovey dovey aura dries out and they realize how incompatible they are for each other in the real world, where they have to do more than just speak sweet nothings to each other daily. And heck, I'll admit outright that I think, say, Rei Ayanami from the Evangelion anime is hot. Call that perverse if you want, but from all evidence I've seen it's simply humanity as usual, so long as it does not become intensified to the point of fetishistic, obsessive behavior, as is the case with UD.

[Malechi]

I've seen adults fall for teenagers on the internet all the time. It's usually not a big deal because the adults are A) Not married, and B) Not trying to keep it a secret from anyone. Usually, it's just a typical case of internet soap opera drama that dies as soon as the initial lovey dovey aura dries out and they realize how incompatible they are for each other in the real world, where they have to do more than just speak sweet nothings to each other daily...

[Emphasis Mine]

If the child is under 18, yes, it is a big deal. <- See that, that's a period. No more discussion. It is, without question, wrong.

[bushi96]

No, my uncle would not be allowed to visit my teenage daughter alone. In a park, in a car, or in a motel room. Not happening. Not ever.

Come to think of it, I dont even allow myself alone with my nieces. No room for error. No gossip. No lies. Thats just not-so-common sense staring you straight in the face right there.

My wife is eight years younger then myself. I am immature for my age and she is mature for her age. So it works out. Difference is- I did not meet her when she was a teenager. They have a word for those kind of people and I am pretty sure that it is a synonym for WRONG.

[Karkadinn]

Illegal != wrong. What makes 18 the magic number? What if the teenager is only a day shy of 18, or a week, or a month? What if the adult is only a year older, or two, or five?
The trouble with law in this particular instance is that it tries to apply a simplistic black and white standard to something that is inherently a sliding scale of grayness. People likewise often try to apply that same black and white, simply because it breaks the moral quandary down into an easy right/wrong paradigm, with no maybes, no circumstantial modifiers, just an easy yes/no do/don't good/evil. You don't have to think, you just have to put everyone in two boxes and turn your brain off.
But life is more complicated than that. Even if we wish it wasn't.
A teenager is not a child.
A teenager is a teenager.
I've been around pedophiles. You think UD is creepy? Try people who lust after eight-year olds. Falling for a sixteen year-old is nowhere near the same thing, particularly given that females are not only acting like adults earlier and earlier, but biologically becoming women earlier and earlier, too. UD's methodology, as Bunjee put it to me in an IM, is all screwed up... the secrecy, the deception, the motel thing, the fact that he's married and has kids. The age difference alone is certainly worth frowning over, but taking it in and of itself not something to indicate a man a predator or a pervert. Just a fool.

[bushi96]

Ya know, I wondered how many hours it was going to take to start seeing a few people rationalize. OHHH wellll, its not THAT bad. Nothing REALLY happened. It COULD have been innocent enough. He is not TOTALLY to blame. Please do no diminish what happened here. There is a valuable lesson to be learned for parents and it really does not need to be watered down by excuses and what if's.

[Karkadinn]

No, my uncle would not be allowed to visit my teenage daughter alone. In a park, in a car, or in a motel room. Not happening. Not ever.

Congratulations on letting paranoia and society's hatred and fear of male sexuality control your life.
Let's try a mental experiment. Let's try this with the genders reversed.
Aunt and teenage son.
Any difference now?
If there is, ask yourself why.
And ask yourself if you really should be treating people so differently because of what gender they were born as.

[Karkadinn]

Ya know, I wondered how many hours it was going to take to start seeing a few people rationalize. OHHH wellll, its not THAT bad. Nothing REALLY happened. It COULD have been innocent enough. He is not TOTALLY to blame. Please do no diminish what happened here. There is a valuable lesson to be learned for parents and it really does not need to be watered down by excuses and what if's.

Nice straw man you've got there.
I never defended UD. I clearly stated that the facts surrounding the case, or whatever you want to call it, pointed to him being a manipulative predator.
What we are now discussing is the subject of age differences alone, apart from any other facts or circumstances, and as such this part of the discussion has nothing to do with UD in particular.
Now, you can discuss this like a logical, mature adult and drop the condescension and crap-flinging, or you can keep on trying to dismiss my position based on appeals to emotion and pretending I said things I didn't actually say. Whichever you prefer.

[bushi96]

Like religion and politics, this conversation is degrading. Not worth the pi$$ing match. Hope reality does not give you a rude awaking someday like Skynight experienced. Good night.

[mrbistro]

Falling for a sixteen year-old is nowhere near the same thing, particularly given that females are not only acting like adults earlier and earlier, but biologically becoming women earlier and earlier, too.

Acting like an adult and looking like an adult are not equivalent to emotionally being an adult.

[Karkadinn]

Acting like an adult and looking like an adult are not equivalent to emotionally being an adult.

Uh, I didn't say they were. That's where the foolishness component comes in.

[Karkadinn]

Like religion and politics, this conversation is degrading. Not worth the pi$$ing match. Hope reality does not give you a rude awaking someday like Skynight experienced. Good night.

If there's any degradation going on, it's because you lowered yourself to slinging mud.
Even now, all you've done is condescend to me even more, and then retreated without addressing my points.
If you want to hold conversations with me in the future, I suggest you not ignore me when I take time out of my life to respond to you.

[mrbistro]

Acting like an adult and looking like an adult are not equivalent to emotionally being an adult.

Uh, I didn't say they were. That's where the foolishness component comes in.

Right but you did say falling for a 16-year old wasn't anywhere near falling for an 8-year old, and you mentioned physical differences as part of your reasoning. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I'm just mentioning that I think they're very similar, mainly due to emotional immaturity.

[django]

WTF HAPPENED WITH SHAKEY!

[Buddy Lee]

While I can understand Karkidinn's point I also think he is wrong. It is the responsibility of the ADULT to act like an ADULT. And that includes adhering to societal norms and mores. One of those is that within the United States ADULTS (certainly individuals in their late 20's and older) do NOT meet clandestinely or without parental knowledge/conscent (even if innocent of any and all sexual innuendo) with TEENAGERS under the age of 18. You can say that 18 is an arbitrary number, and it might be, but it is the accepted age in the United States. It is incumbant that any ADULT with an understanding of our society norms act appropriately and not put themselves within that position.

That is the truth. There may be pockets of differing social views, but that cannot be said when individuals in Texas and New York communicate over the internet. These small regions are typically very isolated and have a strong communal component (think Appalachia). Even then they usually succumb to the state laws and society at large.

Buddy Lee

[happyjosiah]

There can be no question there was wrongdoing if all we know is true. I appreciate the difference between lusting after 16 year olds and lusting after 8 year olds, but it is basically akin to killing someone who murdered your wife and killing someone who looked at you funny. While we may be able to sympathize with the motivation a little bit more in the first case, it is still undoubtedly wrong. Self-control is so underrated and underused. Despite what many people think, you truly can control not just your actions, but even your feelings in many cases. Example, someone does something mean to me, I get angry. That initial reaction may be justified, but it should go away. If I let it eat me alive and harbor a grudge for years, sorry, but that's something I have control over. At that point, I WANT to be mad. In the same way, you can say what you want about how it's a natural reaction to be attracted to someone who is a day shy of 18, but that doesn't mean that person can just act on it, or that given enough time he can't get over it. Bottom line, it is wrong because the government says it is wrong. The laws may be screwy, but we are bound to abide by them for the sake of order. If you don't like them, America has freedom to go through the proper channels to change them. Write your congressperson or sit on the steps of the Capitol. But don't just hit on 17year 364day year olds because "it's no big deal." It is. And the fact that you know the law and let your penis guide your choices indicates a problem with YOU. (Because let's face it, an online romance is hardly going to ever turn into true love. The motivation is sexual.)

By the way, what happened with shakey?

[copronymous]

Like religion and politics, this conversation is degrading. Not worth the pi$$ing match. Hope reality does not give you a rude awaking someday like Skynight experienced. Good night.

If there's any degradation going on, it's because you lowered yourself to slinging mud.
Even now, all you've done is condescend to me even more, and then retreated without addressing my points.
If you want to hold conversations with me in the future, I suggest you not ignore me when I take time out of my life to respond to you.
I feel the need to agree with bushi, here, in a way. Let me expand on what he said, and Kark, I'm not being critical of you or anyone else here:
The degradation is in the form of moral relativism. I have my own personal beliefs. We all do. But what I think Malechi was driving at was not as much a moral argument as a legal one. The bottom line, not up for debate, is that 16 is not considered "legal" for this instance. She's still dependant upon her dad. Her dad considers it wrong as well. That's the period. That's where it truly ends. Her dad Skyknight, her legal guardian and person responsible for making her major decisions, said it is not OK.

[toddrew]

this conversation is degrading.

Not meaning to butt in here aside from hopefully a helpful clarification that bushi can either say "yes, that's what I meant" or "no, that's not it at all", but I think he meant to say that the conversation was deteriorating not degrading. I.E., becoming one where each party held irreconcilable points of view, not that it had become less than civil.

Anyway, touchy subjects being discussed - hope it can maintain the civility (for the most part) that it has, being such an uncivil subject. Which does leave room for disagreement...

[markwars]

There can be no question there was wrongdoing if all we know is true. I appreciate the difference between lusting after 16 year olds and lusting after 8 year olds, but it is basically akin to killing someone who murdered your wife and killing someone who looked at you funny. While we may be able to sympathize with the motivation a little bit more in the first case, it is still undoubtedly wrong. Self-control is so underrated and underused. Despite what many people think, you truly can control not just your actions, but even your feelings in many cases. Example, someone does something mean to me, I get angry. That initial reaction may be justified, but it should go away. If I let it eat me alive and harbor a grudge for years, sorry, but that's something I have control over. At that point, I WANT to be mad. In the same way, you can say what you want about how it's a natural reaction to be attracted to someone who is a day shy of 18, but that doesn't mean that person can just act on it, or that given enough time he can't get over it. Bottom line, it is wrong because the government says it is wrong. The laws may be screwy, but we are bound to abide by them for the sake of order. If you don't like them, America has freedom to go through the proper channels to change them. Write your congressperson or sit on the steps of the Capitol. But don't just hit on 17year 364day year olds because "it's no big deal." It is. And the fact that you know the law and let your penis guide your choices indicates a problem with YOU. (Because let's face it, an online romance is hardly going to ever turn into true love. The motivation is sexual.)

By the way, what happened with shakey?

Awesome post HJ. I couldn't have said it any better.

[Euryon]

I agree with Kark on the philosophical side, and I agree with HJ, BuddyLee, Malechi etc on the practical side.
What appears to have happened is Bushi got (understandably) upset and emotional with regards to the subject whilst Kark could remain relatively detached, and there the wires crossed. Bushi saw Kark as insenstive, and Kark saw Bushi as irrational.
Insensitive can be interchangeable with detached and irrational can be interchangeable with emotional.
Like religion and politics, same deal.

Anyway, I too am curious, what happened with Shakey?

[AgentX-127]

Re: Shakey

Shakey should not be brought up in this discussion at all,
as his case is nothing like UD's.
He was banned, but not permanently, for very different, and "normal" reasons.

As Netherspirit explains here:
http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=65518&highlight=shakey#72878

Basically, Shakey was banned for a week and chose not to come back.
No big deal. (Except for those who miss him.)

[Euryon]

Fair enough. I was curious because it was mentioned, that's all.

[skyknight]

Since I have posted this everything that was on my daughters MYspace has dissapeared. I am not saying it was necccesarily Doug but he did have the password I think. Second he has tried contacting her again and then withdrew his request. I am sure this is Doug doing these things. If it is not he should go directly to Kileen PD who already has a working knowledge of the case. Turn in his computer to prove his innocence as well as I shall provide full transcripts of all the messages I was able to see. Some like the teen chat room chats and things I do not have.

On to the next subject. When I posted this it was not for some of you to come out and say why you think it is ok to scrog 16 year olds. I am sorry you disagree with the law but it is the Law.

And yes NWO I know my daughter was wrong in this as well. I think I may have recieved this better if it was not coming from someone quite so deviant. It is like gaining fatherly advice about my childs sexuality from a strung out porn star. Just not gonna happen.
On top of that my daughter actually learned a lesson from this and is actually quite repulsed when I told her UD was not only married, had kids, does not bathe, and is on the very edge of a breakdown. She was disgusted with herself for allowing it to happen to the point she has asked to talk to a counselor about her acceptance issues. You see my daughter is a good kid, straight A's, already published, big plans. What she has is a problem with being popular at school`and I think this is where alot of it came from. Acceptance from someone else besides her parents and her few friends. UD wedged his way right in to that niche quicker than a snake.

To most of you I say thank you for your kind words. We are actually doing just fine. This could have been alot worse than what it was. For that I am thankful.

BTW if some of you are right and you believe UD is still hear reading messages then I want to say this. Try to contact my daughter one more time like you did UD and I will pursue you without end. I will bang every tree in Texas till someone listens. I will come after you legally and I will personally make a trip there to visit with your neighbors, your wifes commander, your local buisnesses. I will have your kids removed from your premises if I can. I am telling you now LEAVE MY FAMILY ALONE OR IF NONE OF THESE OTHER THINGS GET YOUR ATTENTION I WILL SNAP YOUR FRIGGIN NECK DIRTBAG.

[DarkSpade]

I mentioned this to my to my sister the other day during converstation.

Turns out my 15 year old niece's friend often gets into cars and goes places with guys her age and often older and goes places with them.

My niece has tried to explain to her how stupid that is, but her friend insistes it's safe cause she's been talking to some of these guys for "like six months."

I must have a smart niece because she's now distancing herself more and more from her friend, and my sister hasn't pressured her into it at all.

[deliverymanxas]

Re: Shakey

Shakey should not be brought up in this discussion at all,
as his case is nothing like UD's.
He was banned, but not permanently, for very different, and "normal" reasons.

As Netherspirit explains here:
http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=65518&highlight=shakey#72878

Basically, Shakey was banned for a week and chose not to come back.
No big deal. (Except for those who miss him.)

I was going to quote some others about what happened, but I read all the posts first...glad I did. That is too bad, he had pretty good input/customs on a regular basis.
As for my previous post...dozens ago...I was a little out of line, and wish to apologize to apologize to any and all I may have offended. As a personal opinion of mine, which I feel we are all entitled, I feel that its kind of odd that Karkadinn really attacked the law about ages. I really did not read the rest of his posts...and I am sure to get a response or two for this, but how old exactly are you? If you are under the age of 19, then obviously you are going to defend this, what guy doesnt like slightly older women at that age? If you are over the age of 19, then maybe you are dating or interested in younger women. As far as the Aunt/Uncle in the same car...or whatever else was in on that...with a niece/nephew I would trust my family. Until I was given doubt in their 'character'. Im sure you guys can understand what I mean by that.
Enclosing:
--This is/was not in any way an accusation towards Karkadinn, just an opinion/question.
--I am thankfull that people (you know who you are) were able to catch this before it happened, let the community know, inform the right city officials and ultimately allow this topic to stay up for all of us normal people to express our thanks.
You and your family will be in our prayers, and hopefully your daughter (most of all) and the rest of your family can move past this without any scarring.

[Karkadinn]

While I can understand Karkidinn's point I also think he is wrong. It is the responsibility of the ADULT to act like an ADULT. And that includes adhering to societal norms and mores.

I don't believe that we should let society determine what is right and wrong for us to do.
That is not society's purpose.
That is the purpose of religion and philosophy.
Certainly it's a good thing to not disturb your fellow members of society unnecessarily, but at the same time you shouldn't be afraid to be Different when there's good reason for it.

One of those is that within the United States ADULTS (certainly individuals in their late 20's and older) do NOT meet clandestinely or without parental knowledge/conscent (even if innocent of any and all sexual innuendo) with TEENAGERS under the age of 18.

Please note that you have inserted additional conditions besides an age gap in this sentence, making it therefore wholly irrelevant for replying to my posts. You are now officially objecting to a straw man argument, just as Bushi was.
Deception with regards to romantic intent is almost always wrong. The affairs of honorable men and women are conducted in daylight. Exceptions to this general rule would be minuscule. I defy you to find a single sentence where I say otherwise.


You can say that 18 is an arbitrary number, and it might be, but it is the accepted age in the United States. It is incumbant that any ADULT with an understanding of our society norms act appropriately and not put themselves within that position.

So you believe that, A) If enough people look down on something, you shouldn't do it, and B) The actual laws of age of consent are to be ignored in favor of whatever the majority of people in society believes is right? If an overwhelming majority of America even agreed on 18 as The Right Number, don't you think the age of consent would be set at 18 more consistently? In fact, if we're going by majority opinion, the most common number for age of consent in America, going state by state, seems to be 16, not 18. Why not make 16 The Right Number, then? And do you really think that society would or should look down on someone who happened to be involved with someone shy of The Right Number by a day, a week, or a month? And that on the flipside, as soon they make The Right Number we should assume it's all automatically okay?

[ninthdoc]

OMG, can we lock this? It's gotten out of hand. :(

[copronymous]

OMG, can we lock this? It's gotten out of hand. :(I was just thinking the same thing.

[Bannister]

Sky,

Nobody said it was Ok to do anything with 16 year olds. Everyone even Kark and NWO expressed their support for your handling of this matter. Let's not start turning on each other because of this.

I would also consider taking down you last paragraph. While I agree with your sentiment, if Ud is here reading this he might be able to twist that on you and say you are harassing him and threatening him. As messed up as that is, I have seen cases where things like that have happened.

Ninth, what do you think as 99.999% officer of the law?

Bannister

[Oogie_Da_Bruce]

I just want to speak out to acknowledge an excellent father.

Hindsight is 20/20 and, Sky, I STILL think you handled this whole thing exceptionally well.

By keeping an eye on your loved ones (while still allowing them their freedoms) you managed to not only save them from harm, but were able to teach them invaluable life lessons.

Where lesser parents might not have paid so much attention to the dealing of their children, you did. And in doing so, you saved them from themselves (as they are children) and from others who would capitalize on their naive nature and manipulate them for their own satisfaction.

I am glad to hear your daughter has learned as much as she has. And that she is taking the necessary steps to understand why she did what she did, giving her the insight to make sure something lilke this never happens again (in some other incarnation).

My most heartfelt regards go out to you and your family.

Ninthdoc and Truth... thanks for doing your part to make this a safe place for everyone, you didn't need to put all that effort into this, but you did.

As for all the naysayers out there I just got one question for you, "What if Ultradoug was trying to get your 16 year old daughter to meet him in a hotelroom behind your back? How would you feel about it then?"

Thought so.

[Bannister]

As for all the naysayers out there I just got one question for you, "What if Ultradoug was trying to get your 16 year old daughter to meet him in a hotelroom behind your back? How would you feel about it then?"

Thought so.

Some of you guys really don't listen.

Bannister

[CupidsArt]

OMG, can we lock this? It's gotten out of hand. :(

Please.

[Karkadinn]

On to the next subject. When I posted this it was not for some of you to come out and say why you think it is ok to scrog 16 year olds. I am sorry you disagree with the law but it is the Law.

Actually, as I mentioned in a previous post, 16 appears to be the most common age in America for age of consent. Perhaps you were unaware of this?
Secondly, I resent that you would reduce my carefully laid out argument to "Hey, it's okay for everyone to 'scrog' 16 year-olds!" Not only is it a blatant appeal to emotion, it's misrepresentative.
On the other hand, given the circumstances, I'm not surprised that you can't remain rational. You have better excuse for it than Bushi does. And I will grant that I probably should have kept my mouth shut, as it's rather like telling people not to blow up the Middle East right after 9/11. Still, if you can't stick up for what you believe is right when everyone's disagreeing with you, what's the point in having a belief system, after all?


As a personal opinion of mine, which I feel we are all entitled, I feel that its kind of odd that Karkadinn really attacked the law about ages. I really did not read the rest of his posts...and I am sure to get a response or two for this, but how old exactly are you? If you are under the age of 19, then obviously you are going to defend this, what guy doesnt like slightly older women at that age? If you are over the age of 19, then maybe you are dating or interested in younger women.

Does it strike you as impossible that I can argue for something without having a personal, selfish stake in it?
I'm twenty-five. And I prefer women in their 20s, thank you very much.
I wouldn't have brought it up if people hadn't been referring to a 16 year-old as a 'child,' which frankly strikes me as ridiculous, and if they hadn't referred to UD as a pedophile, which also struck a hot button with me for two reasons: One, I've known and been friends with some genuinely decent people who had internet relationships with similar age gaps, and two, I've had close contact with what I consider to be real pedophiles, people who lust after pre-pubescent children. I've had ample opportunity and reason to compare and contrast.

[Oogie_Da_Bruce]

This thread was to inform the community of the situation. Not to debate law. The information has been presented and now the thread will be locked.

Bannister, my comment had nothing to do with whatever you were posting. It was a general statement.

All I will say is people should think very carefully about what they say. This is a sensative topic. Outspoken members may find them self branded (by the community in general).

[LilNewbie]

Locking thread (ODB got to the locking 5 secs before I did.) Please take the legal/right/wrong discussions to another thread in the general forums as this thread was not meant for these types of discussions.

Thanks,
Newb.