The Book of Dark Cave Lair Map

[Griffin]

The Book of Dark Cave Lair Map

A C3G Casual Map

http://www.heroscapers.com/downloads//dark%20cave%20lair_4vA.jpg
Download PDF File Here (http://c3ggames.com/C3G/released/maps/C3G-MAP_DarkCaveLair.pdf)


Required Sets: Rise of the Valkyrie™ Master Set, 3 Battle for the Underdark Master Sets™
_________________________________________________________________



Dark Cave Lair Bio - Far beneath the belly of the earth lies a hidden cavern full of leathery wings and shadow. This unexplored sanctum holds great untapped potential for any masked crusader seeking a home base. But will the future dweller of this cave be a savior or a devil?




-Rulings and Clarifications-


OPTIONAL SPECIAL RULEINTO THE SHADOWS
Figures do not have clear line of sight on any non-adjacent figure that is standing on a Shadow Tile.

This concept is pretty straight forward, it allows any figure to hide or be lost in the cave. You can't attack or target a figure with a special attack or special power, and if you are not careful, you may also loose your allies and any synergy like Cupid's Arrow or Field Commander.____________________________________________________________ _____

-Strategy, Tactics and Tips-
N/A_________________________________________________________________

-Heroscapers Community Contributions-
TBA

[Cavalier]

:drool:

[quozl]

Cool-looking!

[Griffin]

Cool-looking but why would the red team ever move off the highest part of the map?
Would you honestly sit there and wait for your enemy? I guess some people may do that, but I wouldn't play with them again after that. :p Both sides technically have the high ground. Do you have any real suggestions for start zones or shifting the map in any way?

[quozl]

Cool-looking but why would the red team ever move off the highest part of the map?
Would you honestly sit there and wait for your enemy? I guess some people may do that, but I wouldn't play with them again after that. :p Both sides technically have the high ground. Do you have any real suggestions for start zones or shifting the map in any way?

I wouldn't but many people do and I'd like these maps to have the widest possible appeal.

My suggestion is to move the cool cave part with the stalagmites in the middle and have lowered start zones on either end.

Another benefit would be less sets required. How many does this require currently?

[Griffin]

Cool-looking but why would the red team ever move off the highest part of the map?
Would you honestly sit there and wait for your enemy? I guess some people may do that, but I wouldn't play with them again after that. :p Both sides technically have the high ground. Do you have any real suggestions for start zones or shifting the map in any way?

I wouldn't but many people do and I'd like these maps to have the widest possible appeal.

My suggestion is to move the cool cave part with the stalagmites in the middle and have lowered start zones on either end.

Another benefit would be less sets required. How many does this require currently?3 DnD sets and 1 Rise of Valkyrie set are required. Also, I will see what I can come up with for the start-zones and mountain shifting later.

[mrcrimson]

Now I have a good reason to buy a third dnd set. Thanks :)

[A3n]

Griff that is one cool looking map. I love it, but I do also agree with Quozl:
I wouldn't but many people do and I'd like these maps to have the widest possible appeal.

My suggestion is to move the cool cave part with the stalagmites in the middle and have lowered start zones on either end.

Another benefit would be less sets required. How many does this require currently?

Cheers

[IAmBatman]

You could always put glyphs or other objectives in the low land to attract the red team off of height. I'm loving the Cavern look. :thumbsup:

[mrcrimson]

Maybe put a treasure glyph to entice the red guys down?

[mad_wookiee]

Personally, I'm less bothered by height in start zones when it comes to comic characters. So many of them have some kind of height-defying power, whether it's flying or super leap or bat-grapple or whatever, and in addition so many have ranged attacks or specials that aren't as affected by height as classic characters. I'm far more interested in theme and visual appeal when it comes to these kinds of maps because I think you need to be covering your bases anyway.

You might try throwing a Wannok in the center of the map if it's a real concern. That's usually enough to make people pay attention and bring at least some of their forces down from height.

I think this map looks INCREDIBLE. The only thing I'd do is move the shadow tiles around so that there's a bit more strategic importance to them, but that's a minor thing.

[IAmBatman]

What about a map special rule involving Shadow Tiles that gives a +2 defense against ranged attacks? That'll even out height advantage just fine ...

[Taeblewalker]

I don't like the idea of moving the outcrops to the middle.

What about a map special rule involving Shadow Tiles that gives a +2 defense against ranged attacks? That'll even out height advantage just fine ...

This might work!

Another way to make the heights more dangerous is to have a rule like lava field damage. At the end of the round, a figure on levels 6-8 has to roll an unblockable die of damage from monsters that lurk on the ceiling (bats and spiders and such).

[A3n]

I don't like the idea of moving the outcrops to the middle.

What about a map special rule involving Shadow Tiles that gives a +2 defense against ranged attacks? That'll even out height advantage just fine ...

This might work!

Another way to make the heights more dangerous is to have a rule like lava field damage. At the end of the round, a figure on levels 6-8 has to roll an unblockable die of damage from monsters that lurk on the ceiling (bats and spiders and such).

But these are all rules for scenarios, I thought we here are about the maps only?

Cheers

[Griffin]

I just updated the map. Let me know what you guys think.

[Griffin]

A3N gets the win!

[Taeblewalker]

I don't like the idea of moving the outcrops to the middle.

What about a map special rule involving Shadow Tiles that gives a +2 defense against ranged attacks? That'll even out height advantage just fine ...

This might work!

Another way to make the heights more dangerous is to have a rule like lava field damage. At the end of the round, a figure on levels 6-8 has to roll an unblockable die of damage from monsters that lurk on the ceiling (bats and spiders and such).

But these are all rules for scenarios, I thought we here are about the maps only?

Cheers

If they are rules specific to the map, then that's ok, I think. Just like my Raelin statue in City Streets.

The idea is that we might want to add these rules to the map itself, regardless of scenario, in the sense of heavy snow, slippery ice, etc. Perhaps we should clarify or discuss the wiggle room we have here, and where we cross the line into scenario creation.

[quozl]

I just updated the map. Let me know what you guys think.

Looks much more balanced and still looks fantastic! I'll give it a test as soon as I can. Same building requirements?

[Griffin]

I just updated the map. Let me know what you guys think.

Looks much more balanced and still looks fantastic! I'll give it a test as soon as I can. Same building requirements?Yes, same requirements.

[A3n]

I still like the map. I wasn't completely opposed to the first one but this one does address any niggling concerns I might have had.

Cheers

[Taeblewalker]

The new version retains the same good ideas from the original, but places the higher ground in the middle. I wouldn't change anything at this point. There need be no special rules for shadow tiles, etc.

[IAmBatman]

I don't like the idea of moving the outcrops to the middle.

What about a map special rule involving Shadow Tiles that gives a +2 defense against ranged attacks? That'll even out height advantage just fine ...

This might work!

Another way to make the heights more dangerous is to have a rule like lava field damage. At the end of the round, a figure on levels 6-8 has to roll an unblockable die of damage from monsters that lurk on the ceiling (bats and spiders and such).

But these are all rules for scenarios, I thought we here are about the maps only?

Cheers

If they are rules specific to the map, then that's ok, I think. Just like my Raelin statue in City Streets.

The idea is that we might want to add these rules to the map itself, regardless of scenario, in the sense of heavy snow, slippery ice, etc. Perhaps we should clarify or discuss the wiggle room we have here, and where we cross the line into scenario creation.

Yeah, this was what I had in mind when I said "map specific rules." I was actually thinking of "Under the El" as a model, where the "electrified tracks" are a map specific rule, but don't really create a scenario at all.
I guess I see a big difference between the two ... so the question might be, is this project open to "map specific rules"?
But, sounds like it's a moot point for this map anyway. :-P

[IAmBatman]

By the way, looked at the new version of the map, and while I found the original to be more aesthetically pleasing, this one is probably more competitively balanced.

[Griffin]

By the way, looked at the new version of the map, and while I found the original to be more aesthetically pleasing, this one is probably more competitively balanced.
So what is more important to you for this map, aesthetically pleasing or competitively balanced?

[Taeblewalker]

I think this project is more a matter of aesthetics. Regarding the playability issue, a few glyphs near the bottom can make going down there worthwhile. Perhaps the mysterious item can grant a turn for the X order marker, but only if someone is standing near it (a magical stone that is part of the cave floor...)

[quozl]

So what is more important to you for this map, aesthetically pleasing or competitively balanced?

In my opinion, nobody plays on maps that are just aesthetically pleasing. They also need to be competitively balanced to see lots of play.

[mad_wookiee]

So what is more important to you for this map, aesthetically pleasing or competitively balanced?

In my opinion, nobody plays on maps that are just aesthetically pleasing. They also need to be competitively balanced to see lots of play.
But competitively balanced for comics customs is much different than competitively balanced for classic, wouldn't you agree?

[Griffin]

So what is more important to you for this map, aesthetically pleasing or competitively balanced?

In my opinion, nobody plays on maps that are just aesthetically pleasing. They also need to be competitively balanced to see lots of play.
But competitively balanced for comics customs is much different than competitively balanced for classic, wouldn't you agree?I think that both of you are right and this is just a matter of preference without one side having to be right and the other wrong. I think this project has room for both Aesthetically pleasing and competitive maps.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Great map Griff!!!

Just to throw out an idea to you guys: I would love to see a complex map that could also be built and played in pieces too. I think W@y&% Manor would be a great candidate for this. :2cents:

[Griffin]

Great map Griff!!!

Just to throw out an idea to you guys: I would love to see a complex map that could also be built and played in pieces too. I think W@y&% Manor would be a great candidate for this. :2cents:Thanks.

That is a good point about connecting maps. I am gonna see if I can get this cave shaped so that if someone had enough terrain they could connect it to the manor basement. :thumbsup:

[A3n]

Great map Griff!!!

Just to throw out an idea to you guys: I would love to see a complex map that could also be built and played in pieces too. I think W@y&% Manor would be a great candidate for this. :2cents:Thanks.

That is a good point about connecting maps. I am gonna see if I can get this cave shaped so that if someone had enough terrain they could connect it to the manor basement. :thumbsup:

Great idea both.

[badgermaniac]

So what is more important to you for this map, aesthetically pleasing or competitively balanced?

In my opinion, nobody plays on maps that are just aesthetically pleasing. They also need to be competitively balanced to see lots of play.

I would strongly disagree. I think there are more casual HS players than serious HS players and I think most casual players will play on anything that looks cool (ie. aesthetically pleasing).

It just depends on the crowd you run/play with.

I suppose it could be argued that those on this site are not your casual players, but in the general sense, there are more casual players (some kid who bought the game at Toys R Us and plays with his big brother).

[Griffin]

So what is more important to you for this map, aesthetically pleasing or competitively balanced?

In my opinion, nobody plays on maps that are just aesthetically pleasing. They also need to be competitively balanced to see lots of play.

I would strongly disagree. I think there are more casual HS players than serious HS players and I think most casual players will play on anything that looks cool (ie. aesthetically pleasing).

It just depends on the crowd you run/play with.

I suppose it could be argued that those on this site are not your casual players, but in the general sense, there are more casual players (some kid who bought the game at Toys R Us and plays with his big brother).There is definitely some truth to that, especially with Marvel Scape.

I think that it is important for us to remember that this project should be about filling the needs of the Marvel Community, and they (we) want all different types of maps. The cool thing about us not giving these maps specific names is, we can always do another version that is designed to fill a different type of map need.

[Grungebob]

I think this map not only looks cool, but would play very well with Supers. The way the congested stalagmite area looks, I would suspect that there would be many memorable heroic exchanges in there.

[IAmBatman]

"Heroic exchanges," huh? Sounds kinky. ;)
I actually prefer aesthetics to balance when forced to choose overall, but I think maps can, and should, have both (though, obviously to varying degrees).
But it's Heroscape - if it don't look purdy, what's the point?

[mad_wookiee]

So what is more important to you for this map, aesthetically pleasing or competitively balanced?

In my opinion, nobody plays on maps that are just aesthetically pleasing. They also need to be competitively balanced to see lots of play.
But competitively balanced for comics customs is much different than competitively balanced for classic, wouldn't you agree?I think that both of you are right and this is just a matter of preference without one side having to be right and the other wrong. I think this project has room for both Aesthetically pleasing and competitive maps.
Oh, absolutely - I wasn't necessarily disagreeing w/ quozl, just mentioning that the standards for classic aren't necessarily the same as they are for comics. Some of the stuff that I would never put in a classic map are the things that make a comics-based map great - stuff like extreme height and weird asymmetry.

[IAmBatman]

I agree that extreme height can be a lot more workable in Superheroscape than in Valhallascape. If you're really worried about that type of thing being broken, all you need are careful start zones, the wind glyph, and "teleportation glyphs" as a special map rule. :-P

[Taeblewalker]

I see no need for further improvements on this design.
I propose that we ratify it as complete.

[Griffin]

I see no need for further improvements on this design.
I propose that we ratify it as complete.
At least one of us should physically build it first. So I vote yea to finalizing the design and moving towards the last stage of this process, The Physical Building. If all looks good then, we can move it over to the C3G Books of Index Thread.

I do appreciate your constant involvement though. I think we have all been working very nicely with each other, and at a good pace. I am very happy with how well this department has come together.

[Taeblewalker]

Cool. I shall physically build, and see if anything jumps out as wrong. I will do the same with my map, and when MrCrimson is ready, with his as well.

[A3n]

2 things I want to ask in general not specifically related to your map but it's what has prompted me to ask:


Should we leave out start zones altogether & leave them for the scenarios?
Should shadow tile placement be placed as if light would have been cast from one point on the map, or should we just place them strategically for the map?


Cheers

[Taeblewalker]

2 things I want to ask in general not specifically related to your map but it's what has prompted me to ask:


Should we leave out start zones altogether & leave them for the scenarios?
Should shadow tile placement be placed as if light would have been cast from one point on the map, or should we just place them strategically for the map?
Cheers

Excellent point about start zones. On my map, Griffin suggested leaving them out for the time being while we finalized the map itself; this might be the next logical step. We can possibly adopt this as standard for the maps we build.

As for shadows, since it's underground anyway, I don't see the need to have a light source. It's magical darkness!

[GreyOwl]

I think start zones should be left off, unless you're talking about a scenario.

[Griffin]

I agree that the start zones should go. Lets leave that up to the scenario writers (which may end up being us as well), but if we build a tournament map, we should place them then. Good stuff gang.

[Griffin]

Pictures and VS file updated without start-zones.

[Griffin]

I just got finished building this map and it looks awesome! I even convinced my wife to play a game on it, so that should say something about its appearance. I am not sure if this map needs any optional Special Rules, but if I were to give it two, these would be the ones:

LOW CEILING
Figures cannot use the Flying power or Super Leap power to pass over rock outcrops.

This would hinder the movement efforts of traditional fliers and jumpers, and hopefully giving a slight edge in mobility to figures like Batman, Spiderman, Venom, Beast, Toad, etc.

INTO THE SHADOWS
Figures do not have clear line of sight on any non-adjacent figure that is standing on a Shadow Tile.

This concept is pretty straight forward, it allows any figure to hide or be lost in the cave. You can't attack or target a figure with a special attack or special power, and if you are not careful, you may also loose your allies and any synergy like Cupid's Arrow or Field Commander.

[Griffin]

I just finished my game with Mrs. Griffin and it was a blast. I had Joker, Dr. Doom, and Venom (185 points) VS her army of Baman, Ironman, and Catwoman (185 points).

We played with the above mentioned Special Rules and with optional Knockback Rules. There were plenty of KB damages with all of the pit falls and rocks, and the special rules were fun too, especially the INTO THE SHADOWS.

LOW CEILING wasn't that big of a deal, as the flier could just fly around the rocks, so I could see dropping that Special Rule. But INTO THE SHADOWS was a lot of fun. Joker moving into the shadows to hide from Batmans Batarangs, and Venom and Batman going back and forth with Venom using Spidey Sense to move away and hide in a dark hole that could clearly be a trap.... was tons of fun. I strongly recommend playing that rule.

I propose that this map is finalized with the optional rule INTO THE SHADOWS.

INTO THE SHADOWS
Figures do not have clear line of sight on any non-adjacent figure that is standing on a Shadow Tile.

This concept is pretty straight forward, it allows any figure to hide or be lost in the cave. You can't attack or target a figure with a special attack or special power, and if you are not careful, you may also loose your allies and any synergy like Cupid's Arrow or Field Commander.


YEA

[Griffin]

Oh, my game came down to Joker winning with 3 wounds on his card.

[mrcrimson]

I vote yeah on this map.

[Taeblewalker]

I also vote yea to the shadow rule. Pelloth, make way!

[FATSNACK]

Hey I am new to this game, and i am trying to use some of my old heroclix. I have seen these custom cards that people have made and tried with gimp program (very difficult). Does anybody know an easier way to make cards.

Thanks FATSNACk

[Cavalier]

Hey I am new to this game, and i am trying to use some of my old heroclix. I have seen these custom cards that people have made and tried with gimp program (very difficult). Does anybody know an easier way to make cards.

Thanks FATSNACk
Fatsnack,

Welcome to the site. FYI, this thread really isn't the best place for this question. Here is a link to a tutorial for creating cards using Gimp. Many people have found it very helpful: whitestuff's advanced gimpshop tutorial (http://heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=9289).

Good luck.

[quozl]

I think we should have 2 playtesters on a map before voting it in.

[Griffin]

I think we should have 2 playtesters on a map before voting it in.
I agree that that would be ideal, but I think that it may be an unreasonable expectation considering that we all have different collections of terrain. I believe in each one of you that are a member to this department, that we will all be honest and thorough when anyone of us builds a map. I think that is just a level of trust that we need to choose to have faith in, and also build over time.

As it stands, there are 3 total votes in favor of finalizing this map. We need 2 more yeas to gain a majority out of our 8 members to pass the proposal.

~ Griffin, who has his fingers crossed so he can post his next map: Carnival of Carnage :twisted:

[mrcrimson]

~ Griffin, who has his fingers crossed so he can post his next map: Carnival of Carnage :twisted:

I'm dying to see a map with a name like that.

[mad_wookiee]

Yea to finalize - looks great!

[whitestuff]

Hey I am new to this game, and i am trying to use some of my old heroclix. I have seen these custom cards that people have made and tried with gimp program (very difficult). Does anybody know an easier way to make cards.

Thanks FATSNACk
Fatsnack,

Welcome to the site. FYI, this thread really isn't the best place for this question. Here is a link to a tutorial for creating cards using Gimp. Many people have found it very helpful: whitestuff's advanced gimpshop tutorial (http://heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=9289).

Good luck.The trainer of n00bs at his very best. :D

That's a great looking map Griff. :up:

I had a thought about another special rule for this map where the shadow tiles are considered to be subterranean caves and characters can give up a whole turn to travel from the shadow tile that they are currently on to any other empty shadow tile. It could lead to some fun guerrilla action...

[A3n]

If you include in the first post the set requirements, you have my YEA.

Cheers

[Griffin]

The proposal passes and the map is now C3G official and can be found by all in the C3G Books of Index.

A3N, the terrain requirements are now up, thank you. Also, when you can, please put this map into PDF format, thank you sir. :)

I had a thought about another special rule for this map where the shadow tiles are considered to be subterranean caves and characters can give up a whole turn to travel from the shadow tile that they are currently on to any other empty shadow tile. It could lead to some fun guerrilla action...I think that is a great idea, but there is no need to put all of our ideas into one map. I really want to see that special rule at some point though.

[IAmBatman]

Probably better for a Cave made with Mole Man in mind ... and one special rule per map is probably a good general standard (which can be broken as necessary) just to keep things from being too complex.
In fact, most maps should probably have no special rules ... but they can be fun.

[Griffin]

Probably better for a Cave made with Mole Man in mind ... and one special rule per map is probably a good general standard (which can be broken as necessary) just to keep things from being too complex.
In fact, most maps should probably have no special rules ... but they can be fun.
At least a lot of these Special Rules are going to be optional like this one. Unless the map is absolutely dependent on the Special Rule, it should be Optional.

[Taeblewalker]

The proposal passes and the map is now C3G official and can be found by all in the C3G Books of Index.

A3N, the terrain requirements are now up, thank you. Also, when you can, please put this map into PDF format, thank you sir. :)

I had a thought about another special rule for this map where the shadow tiles are considered to be subterranean caves and characters can give up a whole turn to travel from the shadow tile that they are currently on to any other empty shadow tile. It could lead to some fun guerrilla action...I think that is a great idea, but there is no need to put all of our ideas into one map. I really want to see that special rule at some point though.

That idea can work best if there is a move requirement - the next shadow tile can't be more than its move away.

[Griffin]

The proposal passes and the map is now C3G official and can be found by all in the C3G Books of Index.

A3N, the terrain requirements are now up, thank you. Also, when you can, please put this map into PDF format, thank you sir. :)

I had a thought about another special rule for this map where the shadow tiles are considered to be subterranean caves and characters can give up a whole turn to travel from the shadow tile that they are currently on to any other empty shadow tile. It could lead to some fun guerrilla action...I think that is a great idea, but there is no need to put all of our ideas into one map. I really want to see that special rule at some point though.

That idea can work best if there is a move requirement - the next shadow tile can't be more than its move away.
I think we should just table that idea and use it when it is appropriate on a different map.

[whitestuff]

I think we should just table that idea and use it when it is appropriate on a different map.Sure, table my ideas.... http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb279/bwhit89/net%20emotes/cry2.gif

[quozl]

I'm assuming we're categorizing this map as casual. Is that right?

[A3n]

I'm assuming we're categorizing this map as casual. Is that right?

That's where I would put it. But yeah a scenario can be attached if somebody wants to.

Cheers

[A3n]

BTW since the vote for the leaflet got passed (i think) you can link to it now unless you wanted to download it & host it in the Heroscapers download section.

Cheers

[Griffin]

BTW since the vote for the leaflet got passed (i think) you can link to it now unless you wanted to download it & host it in the Heroscapers download section.

Cheers
Where the heck is that PDF? I can't even find the conversation or voting process. I am going crazy. :?

[Griffin]

Never mind, I just found the PDF and updated the first page.

[A3n]

Here grab this one (http://aslade.customer.netspace.net.au/C3G_DarkCaveLair.pdf) instead, it's a better quality.

Cheers

[Griffin]

Thanks A3N.