Protection from Evil?

[SgtHulka]

Didn't WoTC abandon evil alignments in 4e and go back to the Law/Chaos/Neutrality scheme? If so, when did evil sneak back in?

Anyway, in order to understand who Protection from Good, Protection from Law and Protection from Chaos will effect for future customs, we have to come up with an alignment scheme for the factions.

Based on the characters and squads (as opposed to the Heroscape fiction) it seems like the factions' alignments would fall like so:

Jandar: Lawful Good
Ullar: Chaotic Good
Einer: Lawful Neutral
Vydar: Neutral
Aquila: Chaotic Neutral
Utgar: Chaotic Evil

It seems like Utgar can be the only evil one because he's the only one effected by Ana's protection from evil. Jandar definitely seem Lawful Good (despite having Vikings and Templars). Ullar has all the prancing elves and fairies...traditionally depicted as Chaotic Good in D&D. Einer is mostly defined by Samurai...lawful to the extreme...and most of his units are disciplined (with the gladiators a baffling exception). Vydar is a double-crossing techno-loving secret agency. Neutral. That's confirmed by his weird choice of robots. Gladiatrons, Blastatrons and Q9 are all rat bastards. But Q10's a nice guy. Aquila we don't know that much about but we know she's chaotic (tribal) and we know she's not evil (not effected by protection from evil). So Chaotic Neutral's pretty much the only choice. Though I suppose she could be straight neutral, too. Clearly that means Dwarves of the Axegrinder tribe different from "typical" D&D Dwarves, since D&D dwarves have always been depicted as Lawful.

Let's look at the D&D characters and see how that fits. Ana is a sun cleric. Lawful makes a lot of sense. Lawful Good would probably make more sense than Lawful Neutral, but she still fits as Lawful Neutral. Tandros fits very well as Lawful Neutral...a typical "fighter" alignment. The dwarf is also a thief...so chaotic neutral fits him perfectly, too. The elf is a bit weird as a Lawful Good pyromaniac. That one has me scratching my head. If it was for that Sunshadow guy being Jandar, I'd think the designers were purposefully sneaking the "real" alignment of a typical D&D party past us: self-interested megolomaniacs killing monsters in order to take their stuff. ;)

[Grungebob]

Nice analysis, you are missing Lawful Evil though. I would say that Utgar is more Lawful Evil.

[SgtHulka]

I also just read in your ask the designer thread that Ana is a Cleric of Sune. According to the first thing that came up in Google...and everyone knows the first link in Google is always right...Sune is Chaotic Good. So so much for my assumptions! :)

I was actually wondering about Lawful Evil. A lot of Utgar's units feel chaotic to me, but you're right a lot (like Taelord) seem pretty lawful. And I think a very strong case could be made for Aquila being straight neutral.

Obviously not everyone in any genera'ls army is going to be exactly the same alignment. But since Heroscape uses general as a target type, coming up with generalities (budda bum) is probably the best way to deal with alignment-based magical abilities.

Or maybe not. That ninja girl's attack the wild is actually a pretty good alignment based ability versus chaos.

[Taeblewalker]

Chaotic Evil minions are known to follow a strong Lawful Evil leader. Hence, wild Orc hordes following Utgar.

[SgtHulka]

Chaotic Evil minions are known to follow a strong Lawful Evil leader. Hence, wild Orc hordes following Utgar.

Too true! And it points out the fact that the individual army alignments don't always match the leader. So here's a new approach, looking at personality instead of General.

Valiant: I think this is safe to say "good". You describe heroes as valiant, and you'd never describe someone you think is evil as valiant. I don't think it indicates either law or chaos...a rebel or mountain man could be as valiant as a police officer. GOOD

Tricky: This one is, well, tricky. I think it indicates a level of chaos. You can't know what's about to happen if you're going to be tricked. Uncertainty, for the most part, translates as chaos. By the same token, "tricking" someone is fairly soft. It's not quite backstabbing someone, or being completely irrational. A tricky person isn't even necessarily untrustworthy, depending on who they're tricking. All Agents are tricky, and many of the elves are. I call tricky CHAOTIC GOOD.

Relentless: Things that are relentless are generally without reason or forethought. A "relentless" assault isn't necessarily a brilliantly tactical one; it's merely tough and straightforward. Machines and animals are also often described as relentless. Lack of thought, to some degree, indicates a lack of motivation. Motivation is, essentially, alignment. That, combined with the fact that you could just as easily call something you consider "good" relentless as you could describe something you consider "evil" as relentless, makes me conclude that relentless is NEUTRAL.

Confident: You can be evil and confident. You can be good and confident. You can thrive on chaos and be confident. Or you can insist on order and be confident. It's alignment independent. In a way, if your primary personality trait is confident, that means you lack any other strong motivation. NEUTRAL.

Precise: Precision requires a certain amount of self-discipline. Therefore it might indicate a desire for order. However I would emphasize the self in self-discipline. Precision isn't drummed into you by a drill sergeant. Like honor, it's a trait you choose for yourself. Depending on how you define the Lawful Alignment, Precision could be Lawful or it could be Neutral. I define Lawfulness to be about self-control as much as cultural control. Therefore I'm of the opinion that Precise is LAWFUL.

Wild: Wild is chaotic. I don't think there's much doubt about that. When you describe someone as wild, you're indicating that they're unpredictable, so much so that it's a bit of a warning. A wild animal is unsafe, as compared to a domesticated one. CHAOTIC

Merciful: Merciful is good. The essence of mercy is giving someone a second chance, or not judging their past actions when deciding their fate. GOOD

Fearless: You can be an evil fearless bastard. You can be good and be fearless. You can be chaotic/wild and be fearless. Can you be lawful and be fearless? I guess. So I don't think fearless is alignment-dependent. NEUTRAL

Fearsome: Fearsome and Ferocious are both used, generally, to describe vicious animals. Animals don't have any motivation beyond survival and instinct. Therefore Fearsome is NEUTRAL.

Resolute: Resolute seems at first blush to be similar to Relentless. But resolute is a bit more motivated than Relentless. Someone who is Resolute will continue on the path he or she has decided despite the obstacles in his or her way. Someone can be resolute in their pursuit of power as easily as they can be resolute in their pursuit of justice. I don't think someone can be chaotic and resolute. If you're chaotic, you're willing to change your actions and your path on a whim. That's the opposite of resolute. Therefore I think resolute is LAWFUL.

Dauntless: Dauntless is much like relentless, ferocious and resolute. Yet there is generally a "good" quality to Dauntless. You generally use dauntless as a positive trait. And unlike resolute, dauntless does not imply a single-mindedness. The dauntless pursuit of justice is slightly different from the resolute pursuit of justice...a dauntless individual will try multiple paths in an effort to reach his or her goal. That individual will give up on a path, but not on the goal. For that reason I think Dauntless is NEUTRAL GOOD.

Ferocious: See fearsome, above. NEUTRAL

[SgtHulka]

So here's Ullar's unit's personalities. Can it inform us anything about Ullar?

Acholarh: Valiant
Arkmer: Tricky
Armoc: Relentless
Atlaga: Confident
Aubrien Archers: Precise
Chardris: Valiant
Charos: Valiant
Deadeye Dan: Precise
Elite Onyx: Precise
Emirroon: Tricky
Jorhodawn: Valiant
Jotun: Wild
Kyntela Gwyn: Valiant
Moriko: Disciplined
Morsbane: Tricky
Protectors of Ullar: Confident
Saylind: Valiant
Shaolin: Disciplined
Sonlen: Tricky
Syvarris: Precise
Theracus: Disciplined
Ulginesh: Tricky
Venoc: Relentless
Venoc Warlord: Relentless
Warriors of Ashra: Tricky

Valiant (GOOD): 25%
Tricky (CHAOTIC GOOD): 25%
Relentless/Confiddnt (NEUTRAL): 21%
Precise/Disciplined (LAWFUL): 25%
Wild (CHAOTIC): 4%

So Ullar's troops are 50% GOOD, and 0% EVIL. Clearly balanced on the side of GOOD.
They're also 25% LAWFUL and 29% CHAOTIC. That's a fairly even balance.
CONCLUSION: Ullar is NEUTRAL GOOD.

[Taeblewalker]

Your analysis is quite sound.

[Majai of Dreams]

I have to see Utgar himself as Chaotic Evil. He cares not for laws, hence he is tearing into the fabric of reality to try and enslave the universe.

Chaotic evil villains tend to be the warlords who crush all opposition, and take what they want, when they want it.

Lawful evil are more sneaky, they maneuver within the laws and try and bend them to reach their goals. They have a set of rules they adhere to.

But I can not picture Utgar following any rules.

He is chaotic to the core.

[Demerean]

I'll Raise this up here just to clarify a few things.

In 4E, they didn't get rid of evil but they did get rid of a few alignments. There are now only 5
Lawful Good
Good
Unaligned
Evil
Chaotic Evil

[wolfeman1968]

I always considered Jandar as Good, Utgar as Evil
and the other 4 factions as neutrals.
Each group has characters that could be Lawful, Neutral and Chaotic

wild, tricky=chaotic
Valiant, Relentless and Disciplined = lawful
merciful = neutral
tormenting, ferocious= chaotic
terriying, precise = neutral