What would you change?

[jcb231]

If you were redesigning the Heroscape game system from the ground up, what would you change?

This thread is not meant for "I'd make Taelord 100 points!" type discussion...I'm refering more to game components, rules, and overall concept, not specific army cards or figures.

Here's my list....

1. I would change the unique/common system somewhat to allow for commons that have more than one life....if this required a heroclix-like health clicking base, so be it. I would especially focus on altering common heroes....we'd have the ability to march several Deathwalkers across the field by forcing players to keep track of which order marker activates which one, a task that would be aided by the game components. The common "move anyone" power would be reserved for squads. So overall my common/unique breakdown would be changed to "Common Squads" that play as in the current game, "Unique Squads" that also play as in the current game but can have more than one life or other more powerful abilities...the idea would be that Unique Squads would have to have some ability that truly justified their unique status, "Common Heroes" that are a blend of Common Squad abilities and Unique Hero properties and can have more than one life, and "Unique Heroes" that play as in the current game but can only be played one per game...no multiple Uniques in the game ever.

2. I would scrap the basic game side of the cards. It would live on by a special rule description in the manual that tells you how to play by just using the stats, no powers, and gives some suggested setups for young children. Instead of the basic side, we'd have an "Advanced" side that kicks things up a notch. The concepts of facing, cover, and experience would be added into the advanced game, along with refinements to height advantage.

3. Homeworld would be listed on both sides of the card, just as species, type, etc are today. Card info would also be expanded to include multiple types on certain cards....a Swog Rider's card could list Orc and Swog as species, or Warrior and Beast as type, for example. I feel this could allow for more specific types of boosts. Perhaps a future unit could have an Orc on a Dragon. If we had a card that boosted Orcs, it would help him. If we had a card that boosted dragons, it would help him too. All about options. While increasing card options, rule conflicts would also be tightened. Commonly re-used movement powers like "Flying" or "Disengage" that rarely require clarification would be put on power reference cards to save room for the unusual powers that need more clarity. Cards may also have concepts of "immunity" or "weakness" in the advanced game....a Soulborg could list immunity to Plague perhaps, or an Obsidian Guard immunity to Fire. Cards would also list a ranged attack value and a melee attack value, and the advanced game would have many examples of figures with values that differ. The idea would be to keep the Master Game about the same in terms of complexity but up the Advanced Game into a new category.

4. Campaign Rules would be included, along with neutral automated rules so you could play solitaire.

5. The game would be sold slightly differently. The Master Set would include only Jandar and Utgar units, and large expansions would be released later on containing Ullar, Vydar, and Einar. I feel this would add a cooler thematic good versus evil element to the MS. Small expansions would be released steadily, adding in troops from the new generals as they are released. Terrain packs would be available as well, containing certain types of terrain and perhaps common units to thrive on said terrain.

That's at least off the top of my head....just daydreaming kinda. What would other folks do differently?

[krai]

1. I would change the unique/common system somewhat to allow for commons that have more than one life....if this required a heroclix-like health clicking base, so be it. I would especially focus on altering common heroes....we'd have the ability to march several Deathwalkers across the field by forcing players to keep track of which order marker activates which one, a task that would be aided by the game components. The common "move anyone" power would be reserved for squads. So overall my common/unique breakdown would be changed to "Common Squads" that play as in the current game, "Unique Squads" that also play as in the current game but can have more than one life or other more powerful abilities...the idea would be that Unique Squads would have to have some ability that truly justified their unique status, "Common Heroes" that are a blend of Common Squad abilities and Unique Hero properties and can have more than one life, and "Unique Heroes" that play as in the current game but can only be played one per game...no multiple Uniques in the game ever.
I know how to keep track of life for custom commons with 2+ life you can just instead of puting damage on the card put it on the base of the figure so it wont be confused with the other's health.

[jcb231]

You could....I'm talking more about a redesign, not a way to do it with what we have.

[GaryLASQ]

have something in the rules for allowing "liquid" tiles (water, molten lava and ice, so far) to be stacked under each other, but not under other "land" tiles. then have rules to deal with how to determine what level the surface of the top tile is.

[K/H_Addict]

I'd probably only chane the design of the castle wall pieces. I have had ideas about them, but cant do it because of the design.

the corner goes like this:

/
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I'd make it go like this:

/
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get what i mean? that way i can make more intricate wall designs, I'd love to set up a maze scenario with the castle walls, and this would make it so much easier

[GaryLASQ]

also, hitzones could use some work with the existing inconsistencies. based on all other flying figs, the wings of Mimring, Charos and SuBakNa should not be targetable.

coats and cloaks are also inconsistent.

and for hitzones to work better there should be two images per figure; a front image and back image.

edit: only Johnny has the non-hit coat. rest are hitable. dumb.

[Agent Minivann]

I'd have something in there about facing and a more realistic version of utilizing units than order markers. Essentially the units are lemmings. If you have an order marker on them then they can actually defend themselves. A weak ranged figure might twittle his or her thumbs while they have a shot on an approaching Krug for 3 turns if not. Makes me think of Monty Python.

[Chimpy]

My big change is also with the hitzones. I really think it unfair to hit Mimring in the but and have him die because of it. I would just use the little dots they already have in place to show line of site.

[jcb231]

have something in the rules for allowing "liquid" tiles (water, molten lava and ice, so far) to be stacked under each other, but not under other "land" tiles. then have rules to deal with how to determine what level the surface of the top tile is.

Good idea....official methods for making waterfalls and lavafalls would be awesome.

I'd probably only chane the design of the castle wall pieces. I have had ideas about them, but cant do it because of the design.

the corner goes like this:

/
\



I'd make it go like this:

/
\
|




get what i mean? that way i can make more intricate wall designs, I'd love to set up a maze scenario with the castle walls, and this would make it so much easier

I don't totally understand your example, but I agree that castle pieces could be more flexible....it's hard to make small structures or tight turns.

also, hitzones could use some work with the existing inconsistencies. based on all other flying figs, the wings of Mimring, Charos and SuBakNa should not be targetable.

coats and cloaks are also inconsistent.

and for hitzones to work better there should be two images per figure; a front image and back image.

edit: only Johnny has the non-hit coat. rest are hitable. dumb.

I would really re-think the whole concept of hit-zones as they are now, but I'm not sure exactly how to present them.

[robaula]

Some interesting ideas, Jcb231. I've wracked my brains, but cant actually think of anything myself at the moment.... oh.. hang on - there are several unique units that I would make common, thus I would feel that a re-working of the unique/common situation could be beneficial, but short of naming specific cards that i would want to be common, I cant really explain how I would implement any major changes...

[ylikone]

I'd like rules for pushing/ramming, jumping/leaping, and movement modifiers on each army card for type of terrain they are on.

[jcb231]

Why would the modifiers need to be on the card instead of in a rulebook?

I'm not sure I follow.

[Kepler]

I would eliminate order markers.

Instead of order markers I would just allow each unit to be activated each round (alternating between teams). For the basic game I would keep the activation system the same.

[robaula]

I would eliminate order markers.

Instead of order markers I would just allow each unit to be activated each round (alternating between teams). For the basic game I would keep the activation system the same.

Activating every unit each round? It works well if on your turn you choose a unit to use then, if you want to forsake order markers. How we started off (me and my sons) after progressing on from the basic game.

[Point Blanks]

Jcb, there is something I made that amounts to a squad with "health." You can place this ability on a unique squad:

Endurance:
"*unit* start the game with X endurance markers on them. When *unit* takes a wound, you may instead remove endurance markers off *unit's* army card."

[Kepler]

I would eliminate order markers.

Instead of order markers I would just allow each unit to be activated each round (alternating between teams). For the basic game I would keep the activation system the same.

Activating every unit each round? It works well if on your turn you choose a unit to use then, if you want to forsake order markers. How we started off (me and my sons) after progressing on from the basic game.

I use that way with my son as well, but we play the basic game and that is the way the basic game works. I eventaully want to evolve our rules so that every unit activates every turn to bring a little realism into the game.

[reapersaurus]

I would eliminate order markers.

Instead of order markers I would just allow each unit to be activated each round (alternating between teams). For the basic game I would keep the activation system the same.

Activating every unit each round? It works well if on your turn you choose a unit to use then, if you want to forsake order markers. How we started off (me and my sons) after progressing on from the basic game.

I use that way with my son as well, but we play the basic game and that is the way the basic game works. I eventaully want to evolve our rules so that every unit activates every turn to bring a little realism into the game.This would destry the game, as designed currently.

This has been discussed many times before, but it doesn;t stop people from not realising that all someone would have to do is draft a bunch of low-cost units and then win every match, unless their opponent did the same thing.

If I have 7 squads of orcs + Grimnak, and you have let's say 4 units, and we each get to activate each of our units each round, then quite simply I wll win.
And does Grimnak get activated 8 times, with his Bonding?

[Kepler]

I would eliminate order markers.

Instead of order markers I would just allow each unit to be activated each round (alternating between teams). For the basic game I would keep the activation system the same.

Activating every unit each round? It works well if on your turn you choose a unit to use then, if you want to forsake order markers. How we started off (me and my sons) after progressing on from the basic game.

I use that way with my son as well, but we play the basic game and that is the way the basic game works. I eventaully want to evolve our rules so that every unit activates every turn to bring a little realism into the game.This would destry the game, as designed currently.

This has been discussed many times before, but it doesn;t stop people from not realising that all someone would have to do is draft a bunch of low-cost units and then win every match, unless their opponent did the same thing.

If I have 7 squads of orcs + Grimnak, and you have let's say 4 units, and we each get to activate each of our units each round, then quite simply I wll win.
And does Grimnak get activated 8 times, with his Bonding?

Yes we have discussed this before, but it appears you did not pay attention since I have addressed these issues before. :D

One possibility is to limit the number of units drafted. You could say that each team had to have a average cost of no less then X per unit. I think when I looked at it before 60 was a pretty good number. This would force armies to have a balance between higher and lower cost units. There are other things that can be done too.

For the Grimnak thing, you would have to eliminate or weaken bonding. So no Grimnak would not be activated 8 times a round.

I admit that having your entire army activate every round would be a significant modification, but it can be done. WOTC mini games do it so it cannot be rocket science.

[reapersaurus]

Why do you keep advocating a broad-changing system that you haven;t even worked out any of the problems it causes? :shrug:

[ylikone]

Why would the modifiers need to be on the card instead of in a rulebook?

I'm not sure I follow.

Because each unit responds to different terrain in different ways. For example, some units may get movement bonus if on rock as well as road tile. Robots may have decreased movement in water. etc...

[Kepler]

Why do you keep advocating a broad-changing system that you haven;t even worked out any of the problems it causes? :shrug:

It is called discussion. Part of the reason I post ideas is to get other people's solutions to these so-called "problems." And as shown above I do have potential solutions to the "problems." But I am not ready to start playing that way so I have not worked out all of the details.

However, the purpose of this thread is to discuss how you would change the game if you could rewrite it. That's what I did.

[Kepler]

Why do you keep advocating a broad-changing system that you haven;t even worked out any of the problems it causes? :shrug:

Also here is a thread I started a while back about how this type of system could work.

If the system interests you then please I would love to hear your thoughts. And by thoughts I don't mean a bunch of strawmen that are easily defeated.

http://heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=1675&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=kepler+rules

[Aranas]

A) It would cost 1 movement point per 10 levels up or down when flying. (I find it crazy a flying figure facing the castle wall has to spend only two movement points to get to the inside court.)

B) Water tiles would triple the height you can fall without damage. Over that you take damage. (I find it crazy you cannot take damage when falling into water)

C) A figure would never block it's own LOS


Aranas

[ylikone]

A) It would cost 1 movement point per 10 levels up or down when flying. (I find it crazy a flying figure facing the castle wall has to spend only two movement points to get to the inside court.)

B) Water tiles would triple the height you can fall without damage. Over that you take damage. (I find it crazy you cannot take damage when falling into water)

C) A figure would never block it's own LOS


Aranas

Good suggestions. Those are kinda like common sense rules that should be included in the official rules.

[Aranas]

A) It would cost 1 movement point per 10 levels up or down when flying. (I find it crazy a flying figure facing the castle wall has to spend only two movement points to get to the inside court.)

B) Water tiles would triple the height you can fall without damage. Over that you take damage. (I find it crazy you cannot take damage when falling into water)

C) A figure would never block it's own LOS


Aranas

Good suggestions. Those are kinda like common sense rules that should be included in the official rules.
Thank you ylikone!

Let me add this:

D) The cost of each figure in the game would reflect exactly what it does, not a cost based on "IF". Let me give you an example. Why do I have to pay 120 for the Venoc Warlord when I only draft him and no other viper? Two out of three special powers on the card would not be used. Why not a cost for the figure and a cost printed on the card that you have to take into account ONLY IF you draft figures that could benefit from them?


Aranas

[deadeyedan42]

I would make taelord 105 points. :rimshot:

[monkeyfish]

I'd make a limit on how many commons you can have in an army to prevent all rat armies.

[robaula]

have you suffered a bad case of attacking rat-masses then Monkeyfish? :-)

[monkeyfish]

have you suffered a bad case of attacking rat-masses then Monkeyfish? :-)
No, it's just that there are those big time brgain hunters who play this game and'll field an all Dumutef army or an all viper army.

[LilNewbie]

One way to reduce the possibilities Rat/Swarm armies is to make sure you set a limit to the starting zone (say 6 spaces/100 points roughly) and make sure everyone is aware of the starting zone limits before drafting or purchasing an army. An army must fit on the starting zone or the extra figures are lost (person running the army chooses.) Or you can limit the number of the same common squad per person to say 3 or less. I don't like this limitation as much as the starting zone limit but it could also be a solution. Just some ideas.

Newb.

[jumpman_14]

This isn't really what you mean I know, but I think it would be cool to have another totally different masterset.

[auralerogeny]

This isn't really what you mean I know, but I think it would be cool to have another totally different masterset.

What about a masterset that included all common characters already released in Waves 1 through 5? Same terrain, just common figures instead of uniquefigures. That way when you buy multiple MS then you'd be duplicating figures that you could actually use, instead of duplicates that you would have to repaint or sit on a shelf, or break the rules and have 6 Ne-Gok-Sa's or something. I'd love to see a masterset with all common figures, and they wouldn't have to do any extra sculpts, they'd just have to repackage it.