Recycling classic, favorite maps as Dungeons

[Grishnakh]

Our monthly Long Island Heroscape League game day was this past Sunday. Since we play on tournament style maps (our League drafts armies, has mid season rotations, keeps score on a win/loss basis and holds playoffs at the end of the year), and because several people were drafting the newer Drow and Black dragon figures that are somewhat terrain dependent, we needed a way to incorporate the new dungeon master set into our League style play. The D&D scenarios, while a lot of fun to play through, do not match our needs. So the idea was to simply take older, favorite maps and switch/modify them over to the new terrain.

We started with the Jungle addition of the classic "Mole Hills". For the most part all of the terrain was replaced with the new dungeon tiles. The starting zones are standard rock tiles.

To make the dungeon more exciting we substituted the water with lava. Since you could cross the water in the original version of the set up we placed three "bridges" of lava field tiles to create pathways across. We also made the four highest sections of the mid map lava field tiles to add an extra element missing from the original map. (And to help keep figures armed with ranged weapons from dominating the central map.)

The stalagmites were placed approximately where the jungle trees and bushes were placed and a shadow tile was placed next to each stalagmite. This achieved somewhat the same effect as the vegetation on the original map (+1 defense die).

Since we were not using the ruined walls (we thought they'd look out of place) we placed a three hex stalagmite at the front of the starting zones to give figures a place to hide behind. It did limit the starting zones to 21 hexes instead of 24 but it was not a problem for any of the people that played on the map.

We used the three Treasure Glyphs as written. The trap was a one damage spike trap, no defense roll.

And, just for the fun of it, we included the neutral, crazy troll concept from the online scenario. We almost put in a damaged Major Q9 instead of the troll but changed our minds at the last minute. (The image of a malfunctioning Major Q9 with a large dent in it's head from a fallen boulder was very tempting however. Maybe next game.)

We called this updated map "Mole Holes". I thought it had a nice ring to it.

Lastly, if I had one complaint about the new master set it would be this, there's not enough dungeon tiles in it. To put together this map took three D&D master sets. I know it's a "starter" set and you need the other sand, rock, grass tiles for beginning players. However, for the already established Heroscape collector and tournament map builder one wishes that most if not all of the tiles had been dungeon tiles. The other tiles were somewhat wasted in this set.

I'm curious if anyone else has attempted this idea yet. I can think of several maps that would be fun to convert over. And kudos to my 10 year old son for helping me design and play test this idea. You had a lot of great ideas son!

Grishankh


http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/3/3/0/moleholes_01.jpg

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/3/3/0/moleholes_02.jpg

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/3/3/0/moleholes_03.jpg

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/3/3/0/moleholes_04.jpg

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/3/3/0/moleholes_05.jpg

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/3/3/0/moleholes_06.jpg

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/3/3/0/moleholes_07.jpg

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/3/3/0/moleholes_08.jpg

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/3/3/0/moleholes_09.jpg

http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/3/3/0/moleholes_10.jpg

[Darkmage7a]

Looks great, I'm not sure about the 3 hex rock in place of the wall though. I'd have to play it a few times to really get an opinion on it.

Would it be possible to build the map with only 2 sets of dungeon if you leaft some particular areas as exposed sand etc?

[kolakoski]

Grish, good idea, good start.

For the February meeting, Grish has allowed me to build what I have called a "hybrid" map, using terrain and glyphs from all of Heroscape. My plan is to build a symetrical map with a "sun" at roughly 3:00, casting shadow tiles right to left. There will be 3 treasure glyphs and 3 permanent glyphs. 500 points. I anticipate many map builders will use this mechanic. (I'm also thinking of instituting a "sundial" mechanic: where the shadows lengthen and shorten as the game goes on.)

[Ormus]

This is great stuff Grish!...This is the most balanced dungeon setup we have yet seen...imho :up:

[wbdhoc]

I reconstituted several of Ch1cano's maps for my dowloadable scenario - those new treasure glyphs and shadow spaces just seem to knack dusting off old chestbuts.

[Darkmage7a]

I just worked on this revamp of Highways and Dieways. to follow up on your idea.
I'm curious if anyone else has attempted this idea yet. I can think of several maps that would be fun to convert over.the major changes are in the start zones. If you include the normal 1 hex on hieght at the start of the bridge it pushes the start zone to 25 hexes. I don't really see hoe that would be problem at a tournament though, as anyone can simply leave a space empty much like they do now when playing a 16 hex army to a 24 hex tournament.
It only requires 2 DND sets and the normal 2 RttFF
http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=5264&original=1
Click to enlarge.

[killercactus]

I like that, Darkmage7a. It would've been really cool to replace the evergreen trees with stalagmites, but it looks like we're a few single stalagmites short if you want to keep it to 2 sets.

[ZBeeblebrox]

I like that, Darkmage7a. It would've been really cool to replace the evergreen trees with stalagmites, but it looks like we're a few single stalagmites short if you want to keep it to 2 sets.

Magic underground trees, sounds reasonale to me. ;) Nice job Grish and Darkmage!

[Darkmage7a]

I like that, Darkmage7a. It would've been really cool to replace the evergreen trees with stalagmites, but it looks like we're a few single stalagmites short if you want to keep it to 2 sets.
Yeah, I kept Grishnakh's idea of using the stalagmites to replace the ruins, then adjusted the start zone to account for the stalagmites. Like you said, if the stalagmites are used in place of the trees then you fall short. They also don't block LoS as well and there wouldn't be much to use in place of hte ruins. I think it might look better as a version of Turnpikes and Burnpikes. (http://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=360)
I hope they rerelease or start a new release of the volcarren expansion, lava just looks so cool.

[Grishnakh]

I just worked on this revamp of Highways and Dieways. to follow up on your idea.
I'm curious if anyone else has attempted this idea yet. I can think of several maps that would be fun to convert over.the major changes are in the start zones. If you include the normal 1 hex on hieght at the start of the bridge it pushes the start zone to 25 hexes. I don't really see hoe that would be problem at a tournament though, as anyone can simply leave a space empty much like they do now when playing a 16 hex army to a 24 hex tournament.
It only requires 2 DND sets and the normal 2 RttFF
http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=5264&original=1
Click to enlarge.

I thought about transforming that map as well. Highways and Dieways is another classic tournament map. What kept me away was mixing the road tiles with the dungeon/cave floor tiles. And the +3 movement road tiles are so important to that map.

This brings up an interesting point. Do the new dungeon tiles represent a dungeon floor or a cave floor? A dungeon would be a man made structure. If you recall my dungeon thread I always use road tiles to represent a dungeon floor since it looks more manmade (i.e. cobblestones, bricks, laid stone, etc). I just do not give the road bonus for movement. These new D&D tiles look more like cave floors to me. So this is really a cave set, not a dungeon set. Or can a cave complex be considered a dungeon? The terminology is interchangeable I know but still.

But back to Highways and Dieways, I would definitely try my best to replace the trees with stalagmites. The trees look out of place. But as someone already commented they did not give us enough stalagmites to do that. I wonder how many sets it would take?

[killercactus]

But back to Highways and Dieways, I would definitely try my best to replace the trees with stalagmites. The trees look out of place. But as someone already commented they did not give us enough stalagmites to do that. I wonder how many sets it would take?

If I'm counting right, it would take one more set (3) if we removed them from the starting zones, replaced the big trees with the triples and just put a Shadow hex adjacent to them to take up the 4th hex. But, like DM7A said, they don't block LOS nearly as well.

[Darkmage7a]

But back to Highways and Dieways, I would definitely try my best to replace the trees with stalagmites. The trees look out of place. But as someone already commented they did not give us enough stalagmites to do that. I wonder how many sets it would take?

If I'm counting right, it would take one more set (3) if we removed them from the starting zones, replaced the big trees with the triples and just put a Shadow hex adjacent to them to take up the 4th hex. But, like DM7A said, they don't block LOS nearly as well.

If we did use 3 sets we could bump them up by propping them on top of other hex tiles like I did for the ones in my start zone. However, you'd still be left with nothing to use in place of the RotV ruins. I have no problem mixing genres of sets; DnD, trees, lava. Mixing themes breeds more variety.

Of course if you disregard set requirements you could just use the ruins from a RotV set anyway.

[Grishnakh]

I like that, Darkmage7a. It would've been really cool to replace the evergreen trees with stalagmites, but it looks like we're a few single stalagmites short if you want to keep it to 2 sets.

Magic underground trees, sounds reasonale to me. ;) Nice job Grish and Darkmage!

I have a solution. Let's just paint all of our trees grey! Instant stalagmites.

Actually, painted correctly they could make interesting rock formations. Oops, I hope I didn't just give WotC another idea! :D

[Darkmage7a]

I like that, Darkmage7a. It would've been really cool to replace the evergreen trees with stalagmites, but it looks like we're a few single stalagmites short if you want to keep it to 2 sets.

Magic underground trees, sounds reasonale to me. ;) Nice job Grish and Darkmage!

I have a solution. Let's just paint all of our trees grey! Instant stalagmites.

Actually, painted correctly they could make interesting rock formations. Oops, I hope I didn't just give WotC another idea! :D
I can second that, bonus if they paint it like some kind of lava spire!

[Agent Minivann]

This is a very cool idea. The Granite Guardians look really good on those pics in the first post.

About the Highways and Dieways re-imagining, what about some mushrooms. I recall someone posting pics of some DDMs of some sort of mushroom creature, and the figures were around $1 each. They would certainly fit better than evergreens. As far as defining the dungeon tiles, I would say that they are both cave and "man-made". I think the road tiles would work if you consider the dungeon tiles basically being subterranean, but not a "finished" floor. More like a mine. There is a man made floor, but it is still rough and slow to traverse. The man made areas with a nice paved floor get road tiles.

[ZBeeblebrox]

I like that, Darkmage7a. It would've been really cool to replace the evergreen trees with stalagmites, but it looks like we're a few single stalagmites short if you want to keep it to 2 sets.

Magic underground trees, sounds reasonale to me. ;) Nice job Grish and Darkmage!

I have a solution. Let's just paint all of our trees grey! Instant stalagmites.

Actually, painted correctly they could make interesting rock formations. Oops, I hope I didn't just give WotC another idea! :D

Wow, good idea Grish...and I have a ton of evergreen trees from Micheals, that I could substitute as trees. Then i could use HS trees as rock formations. :ponder:

[yagyuninja]

I redid Fire Isles with Dungeon Tiles, I thought it might look cool. I like the finished product alright, but it's insane how minimal MS3 is. It took 2 sets, and even then I had to skimp on the bottom level and make a concession or two. I replaced a couple rocks on the side with shadow tiles (no other choice, really) and put some shadow tiles on the bottom level so its harder to see the table in the gaps. Looks kinda cool. If you want to change things up, you could also replace the lava in the center with shadow tiles. It would really affect the speed some fellas could get to the other side, but it could be interesting. :)

Anyway, here it is.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/ZEcHh5KQ_FvRDE1FqpvsGuiWskYIDNFTKoweXKg2Q4OxGqZficNBwyjPC37JV1FAUiiVyD wyIAM1KoNwrSpr7PM=s512

Virtualscape File (http://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B3wNt2k_nB86OTUwZGExMWUtYjJiYy00NDFhLThjZjUtOTQzMDQ5ODI2MTgy&hl=en)

PDF File (http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B3wNt2k_nB86Mzk4NjQxY2YtMjUxOS00YzI1LWI0NGItMGIxMDQxZmVmZ GE3&hl=en)

[Darkmage7a]

I tried the dnd version of highways and dieways I put up and to tell you the truth I don't really like it. The shadow tiles encourage a bit of turtling when your opponent is a melee army and you have ranged. Then when they run down to meet you they need to stop on water while you get a defense bonus for doing something most maps try to prevent. For that reason and a number of others I think it's clear to me that we shouldn't use the dnd set to make exact replicas of existing maps. Most maps use slightly more terrain the the MS3 can provide and a good build suddenly becomes inefficient.

I think the best thing to so is if your going to make a dungeon map based on an existing favorite we should use it's differences as advantages and try to improve on the build at the same time. Make the maps slightly different to take advantage of things like shadow and dungeon tiles. A good example is the map Grishnakh opened the thread with. It is not an exact replica of mole hills in fact it plays very differently too. My apologies, I should have posted my results sooner.

Your Fire Isles remake looks good by the way, but I think you can utilize more of the shadow tiles and maybe even the 3hex formations if you are daring enough.

[Agent Minivann]

I redid Fire Isles with Dungeon Tiles, I thought it might look cool. I like the finished product alright, but it's insane how minimal MS3 is. It took 2 sets, and even then I had to skimp on the bottom level and make a concession or two. I replaced a couple rocks on the side with shadow tiles (no other choice, really) and put some shadow tiles on the bottom level so its harder to see the table in the gaps. Looks kinda cool. If you want to change things up, you could also replace the lava in the center with shadow tiles. It would really affect the speed some fellas could get to the other side, but it could be interesting. :)

Anyway, here it is.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/ZEcHh5KQ_FvRDE1FqpvsGuiWskYIDNFTKoweXKg2Q4OxGqZficNBwyjPC37JV1FAUiiVyD wyIAM1KoNwrSpr7PM=s512

Virtualscape File (http://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B3wNt2k_nB86OTUwZGExMWUtYjJiYy00NDFhLThjZjUtOTQzMDQ5ODI2MTgy&hl=en)

PDF File (http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B3wNt2k_nB86Mzk4NjQxY2YtMjUxOS00YzI1LWI0NGItMGIxMDQxZmVmZ GE3&hl=en)
I'll have to give that a shot when I get the chance. I liked the original.

[yagyuninja]

I think the best thing to so is if your going to make a dungeon map based on an existing favorite we should use it's differences as advantages and try to improve on the build at the same time. Make the maps slightly different to take advantage of things like shadow and dungeon tiles. A good example is the map Grishnakh opened the thread with. It is not an exact replica of mole hills in fact it plays very differently too. My apologies, I should have posted my results sooner.

Yeah. I haven't played too much with the tiles from BftU, so I'm not real familiar with good dungeon building techniques. The tiles available really make it difficult to do what I want to do, which is make an interesting balanced tourney map.

With the Fire Isle remake, I was pretty much just trying to recreate it as accurately as possible. (of course, now I remember why I didn't put lava in those two holes by the start zone in the original; I wanted to slow down fliers and make it a bit harder to shoot out of your start zone) Anyway, it definitely felt inefficient.

Actually, it might be fun to just shoot for the "feel" or playstyle that a map encourages when trying to recreate it with a different set. Exact replicas with different pieces will always feel inefficient.

I'll have to give that a shot when I get the chance. I liked the original.
Thanks!

[TheAverageFan]

I've already tried painting glacier mountains to look like volcanic rocks; they're pretty sweet (trees though??). I suppose I've got too few trees to try (I only have 1 RTTFF).
As far as the map remaking, creative work! It makes for very even dungeon maps :o!