C3G Future Direction Thread

[IAmBatman]

If you have ideas for the Brave and the Bold thread, the first X-Men thread, and the general direction of the project, here's the place to get them out while we work on the projects at hand! :-)
What we're mainly going to need to figure out for the future is what exactly we want in a "wave."
The one thing I know is that it should be compatible with a 6 hero set ... as in the number of units produced should be dividable by 6.
So 12 cards, or 18 cards seem like solid contenders, IMO.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

See I was thinking more that waves are released in four miniature sets. Unique heroes seem to be released in fives. Squads in threes of fours, usually. So with that math we are looking a 14-15 unique heroes and 2 squads of three or four. I realize that waves usually only have one pack of unique heroes (although some waves such as 5 seem to have more) Marvelscape or Superheroscape, I think we can all agree, needs to be Hero heavy. Just my :2cents:

[IAmBatman]

We want to stay divisible by 6, though.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Is that because of the number of heroes in C3G?

Cause 18 cards would be one more than I proposed earlier and would be divisable by 6.

[Balantai]

I'm also confused on the logic of "divisible by 6". I'm sure there is some, I just don't know it.

Overall, though, I'd like to keep our waves rather small. There's no reason to rush through all of the figures. Let's keep our fan base wanting more. If it has to be divisible by 6, I'd say 3 heroes and 3 villians.

How about this:

Wave 1:

3 JLA Heroes / 3 DC Villians
3 Avengers / 3 Avengers Villians
3 X-Men / 3 X-Men Villians
2 Squads of 3

That would be 24 figures in one wave.

I'm worried that if we do 18 JLA figures in one Wave, we exhaust any further interest from our fanbase.

[IAmBatman]

That's exactly why, yeah. We wouldn't be doing Glyphs or promo figures or anything in the waves, just figures, so keeping it so each hero could do the same amount would be golden. Thus the 12 or 18 idea.
I currently prefer 18. And I think we could get together 18 really great units for Brave and the Bold.
In that 18, I'd like to stick to just two squads too, both to keep figure expenses down and to continue the high emphasis on heroes (which I think is our main area of interest anyway).

[IAmBatman]

I'm also confused on the logic of "divisible by 6". I'm sure there is some, I just don't know it.

Overall, though, I'd like to keep our waves rather small. There's no reason to rush through all of the figures. Let's keep our fan base wanting more. If it has to be divisible by 6, I'd say 3 heroes and 3 villians.

How about this:

Wave 1:

3 JLA Heroes / 3 DC Villians
3 Avengers / 3 Avengers Villians
3 X-Men / 3 X-Men Villians
2 Squads of 3

That would be 24 figures in one wave.

I'm worried that if we do 18 JLA figures in one Wave, we exhaust any further interest from our fanbase.

You know ... four booster amalgamated waves are really actually a pretty darn good idea. It'd make the waves hard to name, but the boosters could still be themed. We'd be moving away from the Brave and the Bold/X-Men wave/Indie wave idea, but I think that's a good thing, and that mixing in some Indie figures in a single booster would be approached much more easily this way as well.
This is definitely an idea I can get behind.
And, in case it's not clear yet, the divisible by 6 thing is because we'll theoretically have 6 card creators and I don't think anyone wants to be shortchanged. :-P

Edit: Shoot, that's actually only 20 cards, though, so we'd either have to lose 2 cards or add 4. The figures don't need to be divisible by 6 - the cards do.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

So, Balantai, you think each wave should contain an addition to each Master Set? :ponder:

I think I like this idea. It lets each of us answer our personal cravings more often. Perhaps we could throw in some indy characters occasionally thi way when we lack a decent squad idea. Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I like it! Kinda has that who-is-gonna-reinforce-what-general feel to it.

[Balantai]

Also, doing it this way would allow us to release one famous, one decently known and one unknown figure per side.

Actually, we could probably add one Indy 6-pack per wave, also. Hellboy would be a good choice. :D

[IAmBatman]

Though, personally, I wouldn't want to see every wave weighted in favor of Marvel like that. :-P Hopefully Wave 2 would have more DC weighting. Just b/c we'll only have one DC Master set, doesn't mean there aren't many ideas outside the JLA we'll want to explore.
Oh, and we still need to fix the numbers, there ... I guess one 6 hero booster, two 5 hero boosters, and one 2 squad booster would probably be the best way to go.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I'm also confused on the logic of "divisible by 6". I'm sure there is some, I just don't know it.

Overall, though, I'd like to keep our waves rather small. There's no reason to rush through all of the figures. Let's keep our fan base wanting more. If it has to be divisible by 6, I'd say 3 heroes and 3 villians.

How about this:

Wave 1:

3 JLA Heroes / 3 DC Villians
3 Avengers / 3 Avengers Villians
3 X-Men / 3 X-Men Villians
2 Squads of 3

That would be 24 figures in one wave.

I'm worried that if we do 18 JLA figures in one Wave, we exhaust any further interest from our fanbase.

You know ... four booster amalgamated waves are really actually a pretty darn good idea. It'd make the waves hard to name, but the boosters could still be themed. We'd be moving away from the Brave and the Bold/X-Men wave/Indie wave idea, but I think that's a good thing, and that mixing in some Indie figures in a single booster would be approached much more easily this way as well.
This is definitely an idea I can get behind.
And, in case it's not clear yet, the divisible by 6 thing is because we'll theoretically have 6 card creators and I don't think anyone wants to be shortchanged. :-P

Edit: Shoot, that's actually only 20 cards, though, so we'd either have to lose 2 cards or add 4. The figures don't need to be divisible by 6 - the cards do.
I think you are more looking at
X-Men 5
Avengers 5
DC 5
2 Squads with one Indy added in.
The toughest thing would be balancing the 2 v 3 of each booster, but not that difficult, IMO.

[IAmBatman]

I don't think we'll want to do an Indy booster per wave. Heck, actually, what about something GreyOwl suggested earlier? An Indy figure per wave? Since we'd have boosters of 5 heroes, 5 heroes, and 6 heroes, the sixth hero in the one booster could be an Indy figure. What do you think?

[IAmBatman]

Balancing heroes and villains becomes less important the more figures we have out, IMO. Though it's still something to be aware of.

[Balantai]

I don't think anyone here would have a problem with handling squads in group fashion. Maybe even allowing our Sidekicks a shot at squads could be fun.

[IAmBatman]

True, true ... so 20 cards per wave? You'd be OK with that?
As long as they're mixed up waves, I see no reason not to be ...
6 unique heroes
6 unique heroes
6 unique heroes
2 squads
Those would be our boosters ...
If we did it that way, we'd probably want an Indy only booster, but we could probably wait a wave or two before getting to that. I wouldn't want to see an Indy booster every wave, honestly.

[IAmBatman]

Oh, the other thing with that is that we'd be trading off between two DC squads and two Marvel squads every wave. With the occasional Indy squad peppered in.
I honestly think that squads ideas will run out so much faster than hero ideas, though, that this is a good approach.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Thats what I meant with " one Indy added in". Also, I think any of these ideas would work.

previous set Wave 1

Wave 2
2 X-Men + one squad
2 Avengers + one squad
6 Masters of Evil
6 DC

Wave 3
3 X-Men, 3 Enemies
2 Avengers, 4 Wrecking Crew
6 DC
2 Squads of DC specific characters
, etc.

These are just a "for instance" the point being that Rechets, Marcu, and Iskra came together. Nothing says Heroes have to come with only Heroes in a Booster.

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, we'd have a lot of flexibility for sure. Only unique squads would work packaged together with unique heroes, though.

[Balantai]

In my opinion, we should do:

X-Men Master Set
Wave 1 (6 Avengers / 6 JLA / 6 Indy Hellboy / 2 Squads)
Wave 2 (6 X-Men / 6 JLA / 6 ??? / 2 Squads)
Gotham City Master Set

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I agree with all of that except the last line. I think we can incorporate these into the DC boosters of waves. If we do decide to do a Gotham Master Set, I think it should be after at least 4 waves maybe more.

[IAmBatman]

In my opinion, we should do:

X-Men Master Set
Wave 1 (6 Avengers/6 Brave and the Bold/6 X-Men/2 DC squads)
Wave 2 (6 JLA/6 JSA/6 X-Men/2 Marvel squads)
Wave 3 (6 Avengers/6 JLA/6 Indie comics/2 Indie squads (Aliens))
Gotham City Master Set

The Brave and the Bold figures wouldn't necessarily be JLA related.
Either way, the point is, this would allow us to decide what we wanted to see on a booster by booster basis with 6 heroes and 2 squads being the most common booster types.

[IAmBatman]

I agree with you, Spidey, only three waves is actually probably too low.
I think that we want to get out a lot of waves before another master set, and only have an Indy booster about once every three waves.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Although, I could see doing a single Indy Hero or Squad each wave instead of an eventual Indy Booster.

[Balantai]

I agree with all of that except the last line. I think we can incorporate these into the DC boosters of waves. If we do decide to do a Gotham Master Set, I think it should be after at least 4 waves maybe more.
I think a Gotham City Master set is completely necessary. Can you imagine the fun!? Oracle glyph, Bat Signal Glyph, Riddler Glyph...the possibilities are endless. :twisted:

[IAmBatman]

Don't get me wrong, a Gotham City Master set, and hopefully as the next Master set is absolutely essential, IMO. However, it's a matter of how long we can/want to wait before doing another Master set. It might be nice to scale back and put our full emphasis on figures for a few waves.

[GreyOwl]

I think we can include the DO objects like the first wave of official figures included glyphs.

Looking at official waves, we usually have 4 boosters 3 of which consist of two squads and one that has around 5 heroes. That's 11 different cards. I think sticking to 10-11 cards per wave is best instead of doing 20 per wave. We can always do two separate waves. It would just keep things moving and make testing and production much easier.

I'm thinking a breakdown like this might work:

Booster 1
4 Heroes (all DC World's Finest related)
1 DO

Booster 2
4 Heroes (all X-Men related)
1 DO

Booster 3
2 squads (1 DC, 1 Marvel, or one/both are generic)
1 DO

Booster 4
5 Heroes (4 Avengers, 1 Indy)

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Personally, Glyphs, Maps and Scenarios are the only reason we should do a Master Set for Gotham over a Wave for them. Maybe the Next DC Master Set should be titled the Brave and the Bold and have enemies and heroes from Gotham and Metropolis. Lois, Gordon, Jimmy, and some villains along with maps and glyphs for Gotham and Metropolis would be SWEET!

[IAmBatman]

Heh, you say 10-11 cards, but then you listed 15 unit cards and 3 DOs. Which is it you're really in favor of? :-P

[IAmBatman]

Personally, Glyphs, Maps and Scenarios are the only reason we should do a Master Set for Gotham over a Wave for them. Maybe the Next DC Master Set should be titled the Brave and the Bold and have enemies and heroes from Gotham and Metropolis. Lois, Gordon, Jimmy, and some villains along with maps and glyphs for Gotham and Metropolis would be SWEET!

After doing back to back Master sets to establish our base as a Guild, I really think we can wait on much talk of future Master sets for a couple of waves at least.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Personally, Glyphs, Maps and Scenarios are the only reason we should do a Master Set for Gotham over a Wave for them. Maybe the Next DC Master Set should be titled the Brave and the Bold and have enemies and heroes from Gotham and Metropolis. Lois, Gordon, Jimmy, and some villains along with maps and glyphs for Gotham and Metropolis would be SWEET!

After doing back to back Master sets to establish our base as a Guild, I really think we can wait on much talk of future Master sets for a couple of waves at least.
Totally agree! I was just saying to roll Gotham and Metropolis into one set and save the Brave and Bold title for this Master Set.

[Balantai]

Having one DO with each Booster is a fantastic idea, GreyOwl.

[IAmBatman]

I'm biased, but I think DC and Metropolis each deserve their own Master sets, Spidey. ;)

[GreyOwl]

Heh, you say 10-11 cards, but then you listed 15 unit cards and 3 DOs. Which is it you're really in favor of? :-P

I was just throwing out different ideas...I wasn't counting the DO's as part of the 10-11 either.

How about this. This gives 14 figures, with a nice mix.

Booster 1
3 Heroes (all DC World's Finest related)
1 DO

Booster 2
3 Heroes (all X-Men related)
1 DO

Booster 3
1 squad
3 Heroes (Avengers)

Booster 4
1 squad
3 Heroes (one Indy, plus 2 unexpected or quirky choices, one each from DC and Marvel)

[GreyOwl]

I'm biased, but I think DC and Metropolis each deserve their own Master sets, Spidey. ;)

If you meant Gotham and Metropolis, I agree. ;)

[Balantai]

I think I'd rather see 4 or 6 heroes per booster. It would allow us some more flexibility.

[GreyOwl]

I think I'd rather see 4 or 6 heroes per booster. It would allow us some more flexibility.

Do we have to do 4 boosters per wave?

[Balantai]

I think I'd rather see 4 or 6 heroes per booster. It would allow us some more flexibility.

Do we have to do 4 boosters per wave?
How many are you thinking?

[GreyOwl]

I was thinking if we did 3 boosters of about 5 figures each, we could still keep the total number of figures down to something more manageable, yet have more flexibility within each booster.

[IAmBatman]

So 14 units = 2 heroes each, and then 2 squads done as a group/sidekick tackles? :-P

[GreyOwl]

When I said "figures" I meant cards. So 3 boosters of 5 each is 15 cards, not counting DO's.

Booster 1
5 Heroes (DC)
1 DO

Booster 2
5 Heroes (X-Men)
1 DO

Booster 3
1 squad
4 Heroes (3 Avengers, 1 Indy)
1 DO

[IAmBatman]

So 14 hero cards and 1 squad card? How are you going to hack that up between 6 designers?
I prefer 4 boosters, with one being all squads - it gives us more flexibility to do common or unique squads.

[GreyOwl]

14 hero cards
1 squad card
3 DO cards
-------------
18 cards total

3 each for 6 designers.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I'm biased, but I think DC and Metropolis each deserve their own Master sets, Spidey. ;)

If you meant Gotham and Metropolis, I agree. ;)
In theory, I agree, but in practice, which one has more than 3-4 distinctive maps? A generic Bank (heck Star-City Bank) could work for both, then LexCorps Tower, the Daily Planet, and...? Or Wayne Manor (already done it), Batcave (incorporated into Wayne Manor), Acme Chemical, and ...? Police Station? One could work for both. Arkham? Blackgate? Same here. You see what I'm saying. Besides Glyphs, why do we need to seperate them? Too many characters we want? Fine, put those we don't do in boosters in a wave. Maps? What are we missing? Scenarios? Then we can go scenario heavy with multiple scenarios for a single map. We don't have the restriction of making map books only use included terrain. So, X-Men street could be included and have a scenario. See what I am saying?

[IAmBatman]

14 hero cards
1 squad card
3 DO cards
-------------
18 cards total

3 each for 6 designers.

Make it 15 hero cards, 2 squad cards, and 1 DO card and volunteer to be the one who gets the DO card instead of a unit card, and I'm on board with you. ;)

I'm biased, but I think DC and Metropolis each deserve their own Master sets, Spidey. ;)

If you meant Gotham and Metropolis, I agree. ;)
In theory, I agree, but in practice, which one has more than 3-4 distinctive maps? A generic Bank (heck Star-City Bank) could work for both, then LexCorps Tower, the Daily Planet, and...? Or Wayne Manor (already done it), Batcave (incorporated into Wayne Manor), Acme Chemical, and ...? Police Station? One could work for both. Arkham? Blackgate? Same here. You see what I'm saying. Besides Glyphs, why do we need to seperate them? Too many characters we want? Fine, put those we don't do in boosters in a wave. Maps? What are we missing? Scenarios? Then we can go scenario heavy with multiple scenarios for a single map. We don't have the restriction of making map books only use included terrain. So, X-Men street could be included and have a scenario. See what I am saying?

The main reason? They each deserve their own campaign storyline with journal entries.
Sub reasons? They each have enough characters to fill a Master Set.
As for Maps? Gotham Park ... the sewers with Killer Croc ... a frozen over map courtesy of Mr. Freeze ... Gotham City streets overgrown with plants courtesy of Poison Ivy ... we already did the Batcave as part of Wayne Manor but once the dungeon sets come out are you really saying you wouldn't like to see a full fledged Batcave with the dungeon stuff in it? Then there's Gotham Harbor ...
Maps won't be a problem.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

But aren't those really just normal maps with character effect tie-ins via their powers? I mean you didn't even name a specific map for Freeze, just a frozen over map. Couldn't the scenario just involve adding themed terrain to a previously built map? I mean ticalla or FF for Ivy, Ice and Snow for Freez, and Swamp for Croc. And personally, I don't see any good reason to do Gotham Park. Gotham Zoo? Ok, because it can used by many as a themed hideout. But the Park? not feelin' it.

[IAmBatman]

I guess it depends on how many maps you really want to have. Technically all maps are variations of similar themes.
I didn't mention Arkham Asylum either.
Anyway, the campaign and the figures are the main thing that make me want to do it as an individual set anyway.
There's sooooo much thematic content for Gotham.
Anyway, we shouldn't be talking about the Master sets in the future quite so much yet - let's talk Waves and get that nailed down. :-P

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Ok, I can agree to table this until later.

So have we decided on a limit of 18 cards in the future? Seems like it. I think with a possible 10 Marvel heroes, we should do the six DC Uniques as Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman, and Aquaman against Black Manta, Grodd, and Giganta or Circe. X-men could be Colossus, Storm, Nightcrawler against Juggernaut and Black Tom. Avengers could be Wolverine, Thor, Ant-Man/Giant Man and Wasp Vs. Ultron. Squads could be two Marvel (Ultron Drones) and Multiple Man.

[GreyOwl]

14 hero cards
1 squad card
3 DO cards
-------------
18 cards total

3 each for 6 designers.

Make it 15 hero cards, 2 squad cards, and 1 DO card and volunteer to be the one who gets the DO card instead of a unit card, and I'm on board with you. ;)

I don't mind doing the DO card, but I think it would be nice to have more than 1 DO in the wave.

[IAmBatman]

If you're subbing in DOs for units when it comes to dividing up designs, though, I'm reluctant to go over 1 DO. If they're a separate thing, that's different, though ... Maybe 2 DO cards = one unit card?

[GreyOwl]

That sounds reasonable.

[IAmBatman]

So tentative wave template (that can be adjusted with each new wave) is 4 boosters:

2 squads
15 heroes
2 DOs sound good to people?

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Not my favorite, but I can live with it.

[IAmBatman]

I could/would like to see this for Wave One, in that case:

WAVE ONE: JUSTICE AND VENGEANCE

BOOSTER ONE: SCIENTISTS AND ALIENS or JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA
Martian Manhunter
Flash (Barry Allen)
Professor Zoom
Brainiac
Lex Luthor

BOOSTER TWO: X-MEN UNITED
Juggernaut
Avalanche
Rogue
Colossus
Storm

BOOSTER THREE: AVENGERS ASSEMBLE
Thor
Vision
Scarlet Witch
Ultron
Loki

BOOSTER FOUR: MARTIANS AND HENCHMEN
Lexcorp Security (common squad of 3)
White Martians (common squad of 2)

[GreyOwl]

Not too bad. I would like to see Wolverine in Booster Two, probably in place of Rogue. In Booster Four, it would be nice if we had one Marvel and one DC squad. Perhaps we can replace Lexcorp Security with AIM, Shield, or Hydra Agents.

[IAmBatman]

I'd prefer to keep squads all one universe. Besides, if we're only doing 5 DC cards in the hero set, it seems only fair to give them both squads. Then in wave two shift things around, give DC two Hero boosters, and give Marvel the squad booster.
I feel like Wolverine is one of those who can carry a whole booster full of weaker heroes. We already have Storm and Juggernaut in this one ... Also, while Rogue can straddle the line between the Brotherhood and the X-Men, Wolverine is full X-Men and very powerful, so he might move the balance to the X-Men side a little too much.
Actually, since we have 6 X-Men and 5 villain heroes only in the Master Set we might almost want to go 3 villains/2 heroes for the X-Men Booster (though the squads in X-Men Master set do help balance that out somewhat ...).

[Matt Helm]

BOOSTER ONE: SCIENTISTS AND ALIENS or JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA
Martian Manhunter
Flash (Barry Allen)
Professor Zoom
Brainiac
Lex Luthor


Wait, I thought the Brave and the Bold set (a booster rather than a master) would have Martian Manhunter, Flash, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern and dare I say it.... Aquaman.

[IAmBatman]

With only five heroes to spare for DC in Wave One, we've gotta mix in some villains.

[IAmBatman]

OK, after mulling over things with Griffin for a few hours, here's my revised take ...

WAVE ONE: JUSTICE AND VENGEANCE

BOOSTER ONE: SCIENTISTS AND ALIENS
Martian Manhunter
Flash (Barry Allen)
Professor Zoom
Brainiac
Lex Luthor

BOOSTER TWO: X-MEN UNITED
Juggernaut
Sabretooth
Colossus
Wolverine
Shadowcat

BOOSTER THREE: AVENGERS ASSEMBLE
Thor
Hawkeye
Black Panther
Klaw
Loki

BOOSTER FOUR: ALIEN VS ROBOT
White Martians (common squad of 2)
Humanoid Sentinels (common squad of 3)

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Here are the changes I would like to see to Bats' suggestion along with reasons.I could/would like to see this for Wave One, in that case:

WAVE ONE: JUSTICE AND VENGEANCE

BOOSTER ONE: SCIENTISTS AND ALIENS or JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA
Martian Manhunter
Flash (Barry Allen) Wonder Woman
Professor Zoom Aquaman
Brainiac
Lex Luthor I like Flash more, but he has to be released with Hal. They are best buddies (Don't believe me? Check out the first issue of Blackest night if you can get your hands on it!) Also, I like three Heroes, two villains, and the two squads backing them up.

BOOSTER TWO: X-MEN UNITED
Juggernaut
Avalanche Wolverine
Storm Nightcrawler
Colossus
RogueI think it would be easy to make it so three of these four X-Men would and could go either way, since all of them have at some point. Plus Juggie should be able to give the four of them a run for their money by himself.

BOOSTER THREE: AVENGERS ASSEMBLE
Thor
Vision Giiant man or Ant man
Scarlet Witch
Ultron
Loki
If we have Ultron, we have to have Hank! He created him! Plus I like that
scarlet Witch can be a brotherhood member too.

BOOSTER FOUR: MARTIANS SECURITY AND CLONES
Lexcorp Security (Battlesuit variety) (common squad of 3)
White Martians (common squad of 2) Brainiac Clones (common squad of 3) To me, these two baddies, Lex and Brainiac, are even more dangerous because of underlings.

And as radical as this sounds, I could see dropping the X-men in this wave since we will have just released them, for squads of Ultron Drones and Doombots.

[IAmBatman]

Spidey, see my updated take on these. I made some changes you'll probably like and some you'll probably hate. :-D
If we drop Flash for Wonder Woman in this set, I think we need to give her a villain counter. I think we want to make sure not to go too hero heavy or we'll have a lot of villain catching up to do later. We should build in a balanced fashion if we can, with 2 heroes, 2 villains, and one "wildcard" in every booster, IMO.

[A3n]

I was actually liking the idea of The Brave & The Bold wave. Damn. IMO it allowed for mixing of the strong characters with the weaker less known characters. But I do also like the idea of mixed waves.

Hmmm. Theme vs variety & an even boost to the master sets. I suppose it's fairer this way but it's hard to pass up theme when we are talking about comic characters. I can live with it though.

[GreyOwl]

OK, after mulling over things with Griffin for a few hours, here's my revised take ...

WAVE ONE: JUSTICE AND VENGEANCE

BOOSTER ONE: SCIENTISTS AND ALIENS
Martian Manhunter
Flash (Barry Allen)
Professor Zoom
Brainiac
Lex Luthor

BOOSTER TWO: X-MEN UNITED
Juggernaut
Sabretooth
Colossus
Wolverine
Shadowcat

BOOSTER THREE: AVENGERS ASSEMBLE
Thor
Hawkeye
Black Panther
Klaw
Loki

BOOSTER FOUR: ALIEN VS ROBOT
White Martians (common squad of 2)
Humanoid Sentinels (common squad of 3)

Hmm...looks like you put Wolverine in there, and made 1 DC and 1 Marvel Squad. ;)

Overall, not bad. But each wave has 3 heroes and 2 villains so that's 9 heroes to 6 villains. I think one of the waves should have 2 heroes and 3 villians. One suggestion off the top of my head is to replace either Hawkeye or Black Panther with Ultron, or to replace Shadowcat with Emma Frost (which could serve as both villain or hero).

EDIT: Also, I still think we need throw an Indy figure in there somewhere. Unless we want to do it as an exclusive or promotional figure tied to that wave?

[Matt Helm]

What about 2 packs per wave the way the Marvelscape was allegedly going to be released?

We can then go with 10 figures for the Brave and Bold to mix heroes and villains of varying power level:
Wonder Woman
J'onn J'onnz
Flash
Green Lantern
Aquaman
Lex Luthor
Brainiac
Prof Zoom
Sinestro
Captain Cold

Then we can go with Marvel 2 booster wave as suggested:
BOOSTER TWO: X-MEN UNITED
Juggernaut
Sabretooth
Colossus
Wolverine
Scarlet Witch (replacing Shadowcat)

BOOSTER THREE: AVENGERS ASSEMBLE
Thor
Hawkeye
Quick Silver (replacing Black Panther)
Klaw
Loki

The changes I suggest could give more hero villain options as Wanda and Pietro go on both sides and have a history with both groups.

Squads can be released next with 2 boosters:
DC: White Martians and Parademons
Marvel: Sentinels and Doombots

Am I getting too crazy?

[Hahma]

What about 2 packs per wave the way the Marvelscape was allegedly going to be released?

We can then go with 10 figures for the Brave and Bold to mix heroes and villains of varying power level:
Wonder Woman
J'onn J'onnz
Flash
Green Lantern
Aquaman
Lex Luthor
Brainiac
Prof Zoom
Sinestro
Captain Cold

Then we can go with Marvel 2 booster wave as suggested:
BOOSTER TWO: X-MEN UNITED
Juggernaut
Sabretooth
Colossus
Wolverine
Scarlet Witch (replacing Shadowcat)

BOOSTER THREE: AVENGERS ASSEMBLE
Thor
Hawkeye
Quick Silver (replacing Black Panther)
Klaw
Loki

The changes I suggest could give more hero villain options as Wanda and Pietro go on both sides and have a history with both groups.

Squads can be released next with 2 boosters:
DC: White Martians and Parademons
Marvel: Sentinels and Doombots

Am I getting too crazy?

Hmmmm...no more crazy than usual my fellow oldster :p

I like where you're coming from Mr. Helm. like the thoughts on Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver because like you said, they can easily be played on either hero or villain side and can offer more variable uses. Wolverine and Sabertooth just have to be released in the same set just as Batman/Joker, Prof. X/Magneto and Green Lantern/Sinestro.

My personal opinion is that I don't need to have commons with every set.

Regarding Loki. I know he's the obvious choice for a villain to go with Thor, but has anyone found reasonably priced versions of the Loki figure? If they are available for a few bucks or less that's cool, but I've seen them priced very expensive. If there isn't an affordable alternative to Loki (we need to keep others fans in mind), might I suggest Ulik, a very formidable Rock Troll that Thor has battled. His figure is quite affordable and available. Here's the figure picture and an art picture.

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k273/hahma/Ulikfigure.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k273/hahma/Ulik4.jpg

[Balantai]

Regarding Loki. I know he's the obvious choice for a villain to go with Thor, but has anyone found reasonably priced versions of the Loki figure?

If I'm not mistaken, there is a reasonably priced Loki in the newest Heroclix Thor set. :D

[Balantai]

Am I getting too crazy?

The only problem I have with Matt's vision is that we would be releasing all the big names in our first Wave. I would prefer to release one big name with each wave and save multiple big names for our Master Sets.

[Balantai]

OK, after mulling over things with Griffin for a few hours, here's my revised take ...

WAVE ONE: JUSTICE AND VENGEANCE

BOOSTER ONE: SCIENTISTS AND ALIENS
Martian Manhunter
Flash (Barry Allen)
Professor Zoom
Brainiac
Lex Luthor

BOOSTER TWO: X-MEN UNITED
Juggernaut
Sabretooth
Colossus
Wolverine
Shadowcat

BOOSTER THREE: AVENGERS ASSEMBLE
Thor
Hawkeye
Black Panther
Klaw
Loki

BOOSTER FOUR: ALIEN VS ROBOT
White Martians (common squad of 2)
Humanoid Sentinels (common squad of 3)

Not bad, Bats, but I think we need a couple of "unknowns".

BOOSTER ONE: SCIENTISTS AND ALIENS
Martian Manhunter
Atom
Booster Gold
Brainiac
Chronos

BOOSTER TWO: X-MEN UNITED
Juggernaut
Sabretooth
Rogue
Wolverine
Cannonball

BOOSTER THREE: AVENGERS ASSEMBLE
Thor
Falcon
Vision
Klaw
Loki

BOOSTER FOUR: ALIEN VS ROBOT
White Martians (common squad of 2)
Humanoid Sentinels (common squad of 3)

[GreyOwl]

Regarding Loki. I know he's the obvious choice for a villain to go with Thor, but has anyone found reasonably priced versions of the Loki figure?

If I'm not mistaken, there is a reasonably priced Loki in the newest Heroclix Thor set. :D

Is that out yet?

[Balantai]

Regarding Loki. I know he's the obvious choice for a villain to go with Thor, but has anyone found reasonably priced versions of the Loki figure?

If I'm not mistaken, there is a reasonably priced Loki in the newest Heroclix Thor set. :D

Is that out yet?

As far as I can tell. Click here. (http://minis.gamingetc.com/catalog/heroclix_miniatures-heroclix_singles-hammer_of_thor/774)

[Hahma]

Regarding Loki. I know he's the obvious choice for a villain to go with Thor, but has anyone found reasonably priced versions of the Loki figure?

If I'm not mistaken, there is a reasonably priced Loki in the newest Heroclix Thor set. :D


Well, from the new Hammer of Thor set we can choose from this one for at least $1.49 depending on where you look.

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k273/hahma/loki1.jpg

or this one for at least $14.99 depending on where you look.

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k273/hahma/loki2.jpg

[IAmBatman]

I was actually liking the idea of The Brave & The Bold wave. Damn. IMO it allowed for mixing of the strong characters with the weaker less known characters. But I do also like the idea of mixed waves.

Hmmm. Theme vs variety & an even boost to the master sets. I suppose it's fairer this way but it's hard to pass up theme when we are talking about comic characters. I can live with it though.

Yeah, I liked the idea too, but what I like even more, honestly, is getting both DC and Marvel in every way, and not getting overwhelmed with either at any point. I also like the idea of being able to incorporate indy one booster at a time instead of doing a whole wave for it.

OK, after mulling over things with Griffin for a few hours, here's my revised take ...

WAVE ONE: JUSTICE AND VENGEANCE

BOOSTER ONE: SCIENTISTS AND ALIENS
Martian Manhunter
Flash (Barry Allen)
Professor Zoom
Brainiac
Lex Luthor

BOOSTER TWO: X-MEN UNITED
Juggernaut
Sabretooth
Colossus
Wolverine
Shadowcat

BOOSTER THREE: AVENGERS ASSEMBLE
Thor
Hawkeye
Black Panther
Klaw
Loki

BOOSTER FOUR: ALIEN VS ROBOT
White Martians (common squad of 2)
Humanoid Sentinels (common squad of 3)

Hmm...looks like you put Wolverine in there, and made 1 DC and 1 Marvel Squad. ;)

Overall, not bad. But each wave has 3 heroes and 2 villains so that's 9 heroes to 6 villains. I think one of the waves should have 2 heroes and 3 villians. One suggestion off the top of my head is to replace either Hawkeye or Black Panther with Ultron, or to replace Shadowcat with Emma Frost (which could serve as both villain or hero).

EDIT: Also, I still think we need throw an Indy figure in there somewhere. Unless we want to do it as an exclusive or promotional figure tied to that wave?

The DC booster has three villains - Zoom, Lex, and Brainiac. And both squads are villainous. So I think it evens out pretty well (8 hero cards, 9 villain cards).
I originally had Ultron and Vision in there, but Griff and later Spidey convinced me that Ultron, Vision, and Hank Pym should all be released at the same time. And since I'd like to see Hank Pym and Wasp released at the same time, that doesn't work with doing Thor in this set, thus Hawkeye and Black Panther instead.
Let's wait and just do an Indy booster in a couple of waves - like wave 3.

Regarding Loki. I know he's the obvious choice for a villain to go with Thor, but has anyone found reasonably priced versions of the Loki figure?

If I'm not mistaken, there is a reasonably priced Loki in the newest Heroclix Thor set. :D

That's good to hear!


Not bad, Bats, but I think we need a couple of "unknowns".

BOOSTER ONE: SCIENTISTS AND ALIENS
Martian Manhunter
Atom
Booster Gold
Brainiac
Chronos

BOOSTER TWO: X-MEN UNITED
Juggernaut
Sabretooth
Rogue
Wolverine
Cannonball

BOOSTER THREE: AVENGERS ASSEMBLE
Thor
Falcon
Vision
Klaw
Loki

BOOSTER FOUR: ALIEN VS ROBOT
White Martians (common squad of 2)
Humanoid Sentinels (common squad of 3)

Oye ... everybody's got an opinion. :-P At least we all seem to be pretty much agreeing on Martian Manhunter, Wolverine, and Thor thus far, and Brainiac, Sabretooth, and Loki seem like pretty consistently obvious inclusions. It's a good core starting point.
I'm ignoring Mr. Helm's radical suggestions because, darn it, we're finally making some solid progress on this. ;)


Well, from the new Hammer of Thor set we can choose from this one for at least $1.49 depending on where you look.

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k273/hahma/loki1.jpg

or this one for at least $14.99 depending on where you look.

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k273/hahma/loki2.jpg

Does that first Loki have boobs? :? Hmm ... Loki might be more problematic than I thought ...

[IAmBatman]

Oh, btw, GreyOwl, both you and Griffin insisted we do Wolverine, and you both thought including a Marvel squad was a good idea, so, yeah, I was swayed.
I really think those two squaddies are a great inclusion for now too, because it lets us get a Sentinel faction right away and because White Martians should really be released at the same time as Martian Manhunter.
Throw in that Juggernaut (if we vote him out of the master set) is a must have in this wave, and we're a little bit closer to filling the wave out in a way we can almost all agree on.

[IAmBatman]

So, hoping that we can get a Loki figure that works, let's call this our starting point for now, and you guys can help me fill it out in a way we can all agree on ...

BOOSTER ONE
Martian Manhunter
Brainiac
Lex Luthor (I really think we need to get him out sooner rather than later)
?
?

BOOSTER TWO
Juggernaut
Sabretooth
Wolverine
?
?

BOOSTER THREE
Thor
Loki
?
?
?

BOOSTER FOUR
White Martians
Humanoid Sentinels

[Hahma]

Could throw Black Knight in there for Avengers. He's kind of a low key guy and has an awesome mini.

[IAmBatman]

Black Knight would be one who could ride the line between good and evil too, and help keep the hero/villain balance.
I have trouble coming up with too many Avenger villains - theirs just aren't that iconic outside of a couple like Ultron.

[Hahma]

Baron Zemo, Klaw, Enchantress, Executioner, Absorbing Man, Fixer Tiger Shark, Wrecker and his crew(Thunderball, Piledriver and Bulldozer), Mr. Hyde are a few. I can find others I'm sure.

Graviton is a real big baddie like Magneto.

[IAmBatman]

I like Klaw for whenever we do Black Panther, since they're archenemies.
Enchantress wouldn't be bad, but I'd rather wait and use our best magical type powers on Zatanna, Scarlet Witch, Dr. Fate, and Dr. Strange first. Maybe even Felix Faust and Circe too.
Absorbing Man is more of a Hulk villain, IMO. I'd love to see him in a wave with Mr. Fix-it or something down the line (or even a C3G version of Green Hulk).
Wrecker and Crew are cool, but almost seem like they could be an eventual booster all to themselves.
I thought about Baron Zemo, but his powers don't seem like they'd make a very interesting card. Maybe in the hands of someone who knows him better than I, though, he'd be OK? Not a bad choice thematically, for sure.
Graviton, Loki, and Ultron should probably be spread over three boosters, since those are probably the three most powerful Avengers villains. I'd like to see Loki first, in this wave, Ultron in wave two with Vision, Ant Man, Wasp, and another small villain, and Graviton some time after that.
If we don't go with Klaw or Zemo in this set, Executioner, Fixer, Tiger Shark, and Mr. Hyde all seem like good options.
Thanks for the list, Hahma! :-)

[IAmBatman]

What if we went with ...

Thor
Scarlet Witch
Quicksilver
Baron Zemo
Loki

?

I really do like that Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver act as both Avengers and Brotherhood. At this point it's kind of like getting two units for the price of one for each of them.

[Hahma]

So, hoping that we can get a Loki figure that works,

Found another Loki, but this one is around $25


http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k273/hahma/loki3.jpg

[IAmBatman]

Well, that one's out, clearly ... Should we wait on Thor because of the Loki issues until Wave 2, hoping we find a better solution by then??
We could go:

Ant Man
Wasp
Vision
Ultron
Baron Zemo

?

[Matt Helm]

Well, that one's out, clearly ... Should we wait on Thor because of the Loki issues until Wave 2, hoping we find a better solution by then??
We could go:

Ant Man
Wasp
Vision
Ultron
Baron Zemo

?

Change Ant Man to Giant Man and I like it. A wave with Ant Man and Wasp seems so "small" to me.

[IAmBatman]

I really think Giant Man is a better candidate for a "Large figure expansion." If we have Pym in a booster, Ant Man and Yellow Jacket are really our only two options, IMO.
That said, I'm all about doing a "large figure expansion" for Marvel soon, with, say ...

Giganto
Goliath
Giant Man
Master Mold
Fin Fang Foom

...

[Matt Helm]

I think we're pigeon holing ourselves into a marketing strategy that's not necessary. The Giant Man clix is no bigger than the heros in the offical Heroscape wave 1 hero pack. He doesn't quite make the "large expansion" status.

Besides, having Wasp and Ant Man together in one pack, and than Giant Man and Goliath in another, seems to be a recipe for boring duplicity. It's like having an all Speedster pack with Barry Allen, Wally West, Quick Silver, Jay Garrick and the Wizzer.

[IAmBatman]

Good point. I suppose Pym is Krug like in size. And if we want to do only one version of Pym, Giant Man is the way to go ...
I'm also not that interested in doing Ant Man given that both Wasp and Atom are likely additions at some point.
But would people be happy waiting on Thor for a wave?

Giant Man
Wasp
Vision
Ultron
Baron Zemo

This wouldn't be a bad set ... Just kind of threw Baron Zemo in there, in case anyone has any better ideas ...

[whitestuff]

Are vehicle cards coming out in the waves as well?

[Hahma]

Good point. I suppose Pym is Krug like in size. And if we want to do only one version of Pym, Giant Man is the way to go ...
I'm also not that interested in doing Ant Man given that both Wasp and Atom are likely additions at some point.
But would people be happy waiting on Thor for a wave?

Giant Man
Wasp
Vision
Ultron
Baron Zemo

This wouldn't be a bad set ... Just kind of threw Baron Zemo in there, in case anyone has any better ideas ...

Perhaps in place of Baron Zemo in this set, Grim Reaper can be used. He's worked with Ultron before and is Wonder Man's brother, which makes him Vision's kind of brother. He hates the Vision as he's impure and part of the atrocity that he believes stole his brother (the once innocent and mild Simon Williams, in Grim Reaper's mind anyway) and replaced him with the bastardized version (Wonder Man) and then Vision who was created from Wonder Man's Ionic brain waves or something thereabouts. While he worked with Ultron, he didn't like him either, as he (Ultron) is the one that made Vision. Also, Scarlet Witch's magic resurrected Grim Reaper from one of his many deaths.


http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k273/hahma/GrimReapercomic.png


Regarding waiting on Thor. If we wait and there still isn't an affordable Loki, we might have to find another option. (Thor, with the Wrecking Crew in place of a squad for that wave release perhaps). I don't consider $14 affordable for one little figure (Loki) either. I don't know if we want this to be like those games where "he who has the most money or is willing to spend the most has the best figures". But I guess people can always proxy them too.

[whitestuff]

I'll say this here as people might not see the other thread were I had the idea.

We need a private place to talk and nut out ideas without the majority of people seeing behind the curtain.

I have a number of Google Wave invites (7) that I'd be willing to part with as I think that a Wave would be a great way of nutting out ideas quietly. We can edit a single shared document that is easily replayed for those in different time zones.

Now I know that 7 won't be enough for everyone but, if those who I invite eventually get some invites, then over time we would have enough.

I'm thinking creators get in first, side-kicks second (unless someone else has some invites as well).

Whatcha think?

[GreyOwl]

I'm on Google Wave already. I'm not sure how many invites I have left available (I started with 8 but might need to use some for work-purposes). But at the very least, you won't need to waste an invite on me.

[Hahma]

I'm fine with it, but I really don't know much about it.

[IAmBatman]

Are vehicle cards coming out in the waves as well?

Eventually - but not until Master Set 3 when we release the optional Vehicle Rules set. That will allow us to concentrate on Destructible Objects that aren't vehicles for a couple waves or more. Vehicles would ultimately replace the DO's in the line up, since they are DO's as well.


Perhaps in place of Baron Zemo in this set, Grim Reaper can be used. He's worked with Ultron before and is Wonder Man's brother, which makes him Vision's kind of brother. He hates the Vision as he's impure and part of the atrocity that he believes stole his brother (the once innocent and mild Simon Williams, in Grim Reaper's mind anyway) and replaced him with the bastardized version (Wonder Man) and then Vision who was created from Wonder Man's Ionic brain waves or something thereabouts. While he worked with Ultron, he didn't like him either, as he (Ultron) is the one that made Vision. Also, Scarlet Witch's magic resurrected Grim Reaper from one of his many deaths.


http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k273/hahma/GrimReapercomic.png

Grim Reaper would be a great option! I could totally get on board with him. I think having Wolverine and an iconic JLAer or two in this wave will make it OK to wait on Thor for Wave 2. If people really want him, though, we can always make the Avengers booster 4 heroes and 1 villain, but I think I like how the booster's looking with Grim Reaper and Ultron, so I say we go for that.


Regarding waiting on Thor. If we wait and there still isn't an affordable Loki, we might have to find another option. (Thor, with the Wrecking Crew in place of a squad for that wave release perhaps). I don't consider $14 affordable for one little figure (Loki) either. I don't know if we want this to be like those games where "he who has the most money or is willing to spend the most has the best figures". But I guess people can always proxy them too.

I agree. Another reason I'm really liking Griffin's Sentinel idea. It was one thing when I thought I'd actually be able to get multiple Sentinels at $15 each to assemble a common hero army, since they're at least very big figures, but now I'm finding myself unsure if I can even base them to stand up on a Heroscape map, and realizing that the market now demands at least $20 per Sentinel figure. Thus my desire to just make this one guy Master Mold and use a cheaper proxy for our common hero Sentinel.
I know, anyone could proxy, etc., etc., but don't we want to make the official figure something we're actually likely to use?

I'll say this here as people might not see the other thread were I had the idea.

We need a private place to talk and nut out ideas without the majority of people seeing behind the curtain.

I have a number of Google Wave invites (7) that I'd be willing to part with as I think that a Wave would be a great way of nutting out ideas quietly. We can edit a single shared document that is easily replayed for those in different time zones.

Now I know that 7 won't be enough for everyone but, if those who I invite eventually get some invites, then over time we would have enough.

I'm thinking creators get in first, side-kicks second (unless someone else has some invites as well).

Whatcha think?

I commented on this in the other thread, but I'm up for it (I just don't know what Google Wave is!). :-)

[GreyOwl]

The Sentinels are up to $20 because it's close to Christmas. They'll probably go back down after the new year. The same thing happened last year.

[Hahma]

The Sentinels are up to $20 because it's close to Christmas. They'll probably go back down after the new year. The same thing happened last year.

Bottom line is what they can be gotten for including shipping. Some ebay shipping was $5 while others were like $10 for the Sentinels.

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, until Strikezone puts more Sentinels up for $15 a pop, I won't feel close to good about them as commons. That's mostly an issue for the Sentinel thread, though.

[whitestuff]

To get the Wave invite under way (google states that it takes time to add people to their servers) I need your email addresses...

[IAmBatman]

pm sent.

[IAmBatman]

BOOSTER ONE
Martian Manhunter
Brainiac
Lex Luthor
?
?

BOOSTER TWO
Juggernaut
Sabretooth
Wolverine
?
?

BOOSTER THREE
Thor OR Grim Reaper
Giant Man
Wasp
Vision
Ultron

BOOSTER FOUR
White Martians
Humanoid Sentinels

Just updating where we seem to be at on this ...

[whitestuff]

Added to the Google Wave wait list...
IAmBatman
Balantai
Spidey'tilIDie
Hahma3 invites left...

[Hahma]

I got mine and signed up. I attempted to send you a wave Whitestuff saying thanks for the invite. I guess we'll see if it works.

[IAmBatman]

Got mine, added you as a contact, Whitestuff. Guess we'll have to all figure out how to add each other beyond that. I'll use one of my invites to get Griff over there.

[IAmBatman]

Another take on this, back to more of the original wave flavors ...

BOOSTER ONE: BRAVE AND THE BOLD
Martian Manhunter
Aquaman
Zatanna
Etrigan
Gorilla Grodd

BOOSTER TWO: AVENGERS ASSEMBLE
Thor
Giant Man
Wasp
Vision
Ultron

BOOSTER THREE: BROTHERHOOD OF MUTANTS
Juggernaut
Sabretooth
Avalanche
Black Tom
Wolverine

BOOSTER FOUR: ROBOT VS ALIEN
Humanoid Sentinels (common squad of three)
White Martians (common squad of two)

[Balantai]

The list is getting pretty good.

Although, I think I'd like to avoid Thor, Giant Man and Wasp in our first Wave. That's a majority of the big names. What about:

Thor
Black Knight
Vision
Kang the Conqueror
Ultron

With the X-Men, we have 4 villians and 1 hero. What about replacing Avalanche with Jubilee. She's pretty unknown. By the way, Black Tom Cassidy is a great choice for Brotherhood. Kudos!

Also, I'd rather replace Humaniod Sentinels with either Kree or Skrull.

[IAmBatman]

Here's my rationale ...

Wasp, Giant Man, Vision and Ultron are all strongly thematically linked and should be released at the same time. Wasp and Giant Man should be obvious - Giant Man created Ultron and Ultron created Vision so having that generational link is really cool.
If anyone's the odd man out in this Avengers release, I think it's Thor. That said, since it's 2 Marvel boosters to 1 DC booster in this wave, I'm thinking wave 2 will be the opposite, and the Marvel booster will likely be an X-Men one, so best to get some major Avengers players established now.
Also the theme of the booster is "Avengers Assemble." The founding members of the Avengers were Thor, Hulk, Iron Man, Hank Pym (Giant Man), and Wasp. Releasing that booster as is would allow for all of those founding members to be out.
There are still plenty of big shot Avengers yet to come, like Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Black Panther, Wonder Man, Ms. Marvel, Falcon, Hercules, etc. I'd hate to use putting out too many big shots at once as an excuse not to do an Avengers Assemble booster that really best expresses that theme when the Avengers should have plenty of back up coming and might not have a chance for that back up for another wave or two.
Likewise, Booster Three is based around the idea of a Brotherhood of Mutants theme and also around the prediction that the Marvel booster in Wave Two will likely be an X-Men one (and a hero heavy X-Men one since this wave will really round out the brotherhood).
Since the Avengers booster is 4:1 heroes, I really like the Brotherhood booster as 4:1 villains to maintain that overall balance, and I think that a Brotherhood themed booster is a great follow up to the X-Men Master set. Not to mention that booster has Wolverine in it, who we all know can take every other mutant out single handedly. :-P
Besides, the X-Men Master Set has one more hero than villain mutant in it, so it's time to turn the tide the other way for a wave (before following up with a hero heavy X-Men booster in wave 2 - I'm thinking something like: X-Men United (Rogue, Gambit, Colossus, Shadowcat, Emma Frost).
I was thinking of having Rogue in this set for a bit since she could tentatively be considered a temporary Brotherhood member, but Griff suggested Black Tom and I agreed it was a great fit, especially considering his friendship with Juggernaut. If guys like Black Tom and Avalanche don't get out in this booster I wouldn't expect to see them any time soon.
There's plenty of time for Kree and Skrull - I'd honestly rather see them released together, and the White Martians being released at the same time as Martian Manhunter makes too much sense to avoid, IMO. Also, with the current issues with cost for the common Sentinel hero we're planning, I think having a cheap common Sentinel squad can really take some of the sting out of forming a Sentinel horde ... so I'm all about rounding out that Sentinel faction some (and putting us in position to do a Master Mold in an eventual Large figure expansion that acts like the Marro Hive for Sentinels ...).

[GreyOwl]

Also, I'd rather replace Humaniod Sentinels with either Kree or Skrull.


I agree with this sentiment. I'd rather release something non-Sentinel so soon after having a Sentinel in the X-Men set. If we don't want to do Kree or Skrulls, other Marvel squad options are Shi'ar, AIM, Hydra, or S.H.I.E.L.D.

By the way, on an unrelated note but still about C3G future plans, I think it would be really cool at some point to have a promotional figure of the Beyonder.

[IAmBatman]

I guess on that list I'm most interested in AIM - especially because SHIELD/HYDRA and Kree/Skrull are best done in sets together, IMO. Shi'ar I could wait about forever before doing - they're a nice down the road option, though.
But I have to echo my sentiments that I think it'd be really nice to give a more affordable horde option for Sentinels to complement the Sentinel heroes in the X-Men Master set. I definitely want the waves to open up new territory, but at the same time, I think they should be seen somewhat as expansions upon what we do in the Master Set.

[GreyOwl]

One reason I mentioned the Shi'ar, though, is because of their connection to the X-Men.

[IAmBatman]

Oh, I realize, but if we're going to have an X-Men squad right away, more than the Morlocks or Shi'ar or Cuckoos I'd really like to see a Sentinel squad that allows them to act like a horde without spending hundreds of dollars on common heroes.

[Balantai]

Your logic is pretty sound, Bats. The only piece I still disagree with you on is Mini-Sentinels. They're so obscure. We seem to putting in the Mini-Sentinels to fill some sort of void. If we're having this much of a problem with the large Sentinels, we should just take them out of the Master Set.

[GreyOwl]

Your logic is pretty sound, Bats. The only piece I still disagree with you on is Mini-Sentinels. They're so obscure. We seem to putting in the Mini-Sentinels to fill some sort of void. If we're having this much of a problem with the large Sentinels, we should just take them out of the Master Set.

What he said.

There doesn't seem to be much demand for mini-Sentinels, judging by the lack of customs made of them on this site, and they aren't very iconic at all. Heck, most of us had never even heard of them before we started discussing all this. The only reason we seem to be doing them is to make up for the fact that we're doing big Sentinels, and they're expensive. It might be better not to do Sentinels at all if they're going to create this much extra work.

[IAmBatman]

I think Sentinels are too iconic to get around and I really like their inclusion in the Master Set for the sake of scenarios if nothing else.
Also, I'm not a fan of the "if it's too hard for us to agree on, we just shouldn't do it" logic. We've gone back and forth many rounds on things in the past and come out better for it. I'd hate to see us wimp out like that on this one. We can work Sentinels - and it's not like it's going to be the only time we run into issues with figure expense anyway, so it's a debate we can only put off so long.
As for the mini Sentinels, I like them, I'm interested in doing them, clearly GreyOwl and Balantai aren't. I can understand that and tentatively mark down AIM agents or Doombots (keep the Robot vs Alien name) as substitutes. I would, however, like to hear from others as to their feelings on the humanoid Sentinels before abandoning them as part of that release completely.

[Balantai]

Don't get me wrong. I want to do Mini-Sentinels! Just not so soon. They're not very iconic, in my opinion. We're only doing 2 squads per wave. We should be doing iconic figures until we run out. :D

EDIT: Doom-Bots would be awesome! Unless we save them for a Fantastic Four Wave / Master Set.

[IAmBatman]

Fantastic Four could have any of these four and I'd be happy with them: Doom Bots Moloids Skrull Kree
Though a Fantastic Four Master Set with Doombots would give us an excellent excuse to do a C3G Dr. Doom ...
Really, if we only do two more Master Sets, I'm hoping they'll look something like this:

FANTASTIC FORCES MASTER SET
Mr. Fantastic
Invisible Woman
Human Torch
The Thing
She-Hulk
Mole Man
Dr. Doom
Super Skrull
Annihilus
Pupper Master
Doom Bots
Moloids

AND

GOTHAM KNIGHTS
Nightwing
Robin (Tim Drake)
Huntress
Oracle
Commissioner Gordon
Killer Croc
Scarecrow
Poison Ivy
Riddler
Penguin
Crooked Cops
Clown Henchmen/Joker Goons (or Penguins with Machine Guns ... not even kidding)

The villains could toggle a bit, but that the basis for my thinking anyway. I like Batgirl (Cassie Cain) a lot too, but she seems a good candidate for a booster, so I went with Huntress here.

[Hahma]

If wave 2's one Marvel set is going to be X-Men, I'd prefer for it to be the last X-Men release for a long time. Not that I don't like X-Men, I do. But I think others need to be represented too. More Avengers, Fantastic 4, and for goodness sakes more Spiderman contemporaries and Daredevil, Elektra, Bullseye etc.

[GreyOwl]

I don't have a problem with doing mini-Sentinels, it just seems like a very similar figure to the large Sentinels so soon after. Maybe if we waited longer before doing them.

And I wasn't suggesting not doing Sentinels because we can't agree, it was because of the potential extra work they look like they might create - alternate cards, possilbe alternate playtesting of those cards, the need for mini-Sentinels, etc.

We probably do need a policy for how to handle customs of rare and/or expensive minis.

[IAmBatman]

Oh, I think it'll definitely be the last one for a while.
Here's how I could see Wave Two looking based on what we're looking at for Wave One (not to project too far in the future):

WAVE TWO: UNEASY ALLIANCES

BOOSTER ONE: LEAGUE OF JUSTICE
Wonder Woman
Green Lantern Hal Jordan
Flash Barry Allen
Booster Gold
Blue Beetle

BOOSTER TWO: LEAGUE OF INJUSTICE
Lex Luthor
Black Manta
Sinestro
Professor Zoom (Reverse Flash)
Cheetah

BOOSTER THREE: X-MEN UNITED
Colossus
Shadowcat
Rogue
Gambit
Emma Frost

BOOSTER FOUR: SKRULL KREE WAR
Skrull Infiltrators (common squad)
Kree Warriors (common squad)

[IAmBatman]

I don't have a problem with doing mini-Sentinels, it just seems like a very similar figure to the large Sentinels so soon after. Maybe if we waited longer before doing them.

And I wasn't suggesting not doing Sentinels because we can't agree, it was because of the potential extra work they look like they might create - alternate cards, possilbe alternate playtesting of those cards, the need for mini-Sentinels, etc.

We probably do need a policy for how to handle customs of rare and/or expensive minis.

I don't anticipate any additional playtesting happening. And, so long as I can actually base this guy, I'm going to roll the current figure due to the prevailing tide of opinion, and if I want to use proxies later, I can. :-P
But, yeah, a policy for how to handle customs with rare or expensive minis is both needed and difficult to tackle ...

[IAmBatman]

And ... if you're really curious where my head's at ... not to overload this thread too much with thoughts of anything beyond wave one ... but ....

WAVE THREE: THE MIGHTY AND THE FALLEN

BOOSTER ONE: TITANS GO!
Raven
Beast Boy
Cyborg
Starfire
Deathstroke

BOOSTER TWO: MAD DOCTORS
Dr. Octopus
The Lizard
Green Goblin
Dr. Strange
Mister Sinister

BOOSTER THREE: MIGHTY AVENGERS
Wonder Man
Scarlet Witch
Quicksilver
Ms. Marvel
Iron Man

BOOSTER FOUR: DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE
Hellboy
Aphrodite IX
Judge Dredd
Shi
Witchblade

WAVE FOUR: CITY OF CRIME

BOOSTER ONE: HELL’S KITCHEN
Daredevil
Elektra
Bullseye
Kingpin
Punisher

BOOSTER TWO: ROGUES REUNION
Captain Cold
Mirror Master
Weather Wizard
Cap’n Boomerang
Trickster

BOOSTER THREE: SINISTER SIX
Sandman
Kraven the Hunter
Vulture
Elektro
Mysterio

BOOSTER FOUR: HELPING HANDS
Hand Ninjas (common squad)
Hired Goons (common squad)

WAVE FIVE: REIGN OF TERROR
BOOSTER ONE: DEATH OF SUPERMAN
Doomsday
Eradicator
Cyborg Superman
Superboy (Con-El)
Steel

BOOSTER ONE: MIGHT AND MAGIC
Captain Marvel
The Spectre
Obsidian
Black Adam
Felix Faust

BOOSTER THREE: S.H.I.E.L.D.
Nick Fury
Black Widow
Falcon
Baron Von Strucker
Viper

BOOSTER FOUR: AGENTS AND TERRORISTS
HYDRA Terrorists
SHIELD Agents

[GreyOwl]

Iron Man, huh? Interesting... ;)

I really like the Hell's Kitchen booster. I was hoping we'd do something like that.

Booster Three is kind of funny in that it's called "Sinister Six", but only has 5 figures in it. ;)

[IAmBatman]

Iron Man, huh? Interesting... ;)

I really like the Hell's Kitchen booster. I was hoping we'd do something like that.

Booster Three is kind of funny in that it's called "Sinister Six", but only has 5 figures in it. ;)

Iron Man's up there on my list of official figures I'd like us to take a shot at. As long as we don't do too many of those at once, I think we can get away with that ...

Yeah, I wanted to wait until after we had a few more "criminals" out there before releasing Kingpin to go with Griffin's idea of Kingpin as the Kato of the Criminal Faction.

And yeah ... couldn't call Sinister Six anything else ... but at least Dr. Ock would already be out at that point. :-P

[GreyOwl]

Where's Doc Ock in the release plan again?

[IAmBatman]

Swapped out MODOK for the more appropriate Mister Sinister in the Mad Doctors set ...

[IAmBatman]

Where's Doc Ock in the release plan again?

WAVE THREE: THE MIGHTY AND THE FALLEN

BOOSTER TWO: MAD DOCTORS
Dr. Octopus
The Lizard
Green Goblin
Dr. Strange
Mister Sinister

[Hahma]

Where's Doc Ock in the release plan again?

Years:p

[Balantai]

No Teen Titans anywhere? :shock:

[Balantai]

I also think we need more Misc. figures. Judge Dredd, Aliens, Predator, Star Gate, Hellboy, and many many more.

[GreyOwl]

True, where are the Indy's? Witchblade, Shi, etc.

[IAmBatman]

No Teen Titans anywhere? :shock:

Can't do it all at once, sorry. :-P They're on my radar.

I also think we need more Misc. figures. Judge Dredd, Aliens, Predator, Star Gate, Hellboy, and many many more.
True, where are the Indy's? Witchblade, Shi, etc.

Wave 3 - there's a booster called Declaration of Independence. It currently has listed Hellboy and four question marks. I figured those more passionate about the Indy set could better fill out those question marks than I.
I think one Indy booster every three waves is a good number that will get enough Indy stuff out without it feeling overwhelming as it's a much lesser interest for a lot of us.
So, if you got 4 heroes to go with Hellboy, what are your picks, gentlemen?

[Hahma]

No Teen Titans anywhere? :shock:

True, where are the Indy's? Witchblade, Shi, etc.


What do we cut out to get them in? As it is, I'm jonesin just to get Daredevil, Elektra, Kingpin, Doc Oc, Hobgoblin, Sandman, AIM, Shield, etc. etc.

[Balantai]

GOTHAM KNIGHTS
Nightwing
Robin (Tim Drake)
Huntress
Oracle
Commissioner Gordon
Killer Croc
Scarecrow
Poison Ivy
Riddler
Penguin
Crooked Cops
Clown Henchmen/Joker Goons (or Penguins with Machine Guns ... not even kidding)

I'm loving this. The only change I would make would be to swap out Oracle for Batgirl (Cassandra Cain) or Bat-mite or Azrael. I really think Oracle could be a Glyph.

And what about a two figure Unique Squad: Harvey Bullock and Renee Montoya. :twisted:

[Hahma]

GOTHAM KNIGHTS
Nightwing
Robin (Tim Drake)
Huntress
Oracle
Commissioner Gordon
Killer Croc
Scarecrow
Poison Ivy
Riddler
Penguin
Crooked Cops
Clown Henchmen/Joker Goons (or Penguins with Machine Guns ... not even kidding)

I'm loving this. The only change I would make would be to swap out Oracle for Batgirl (Cassandra Cain) or Bat-mite or Azrael. I really think Oracle could be a Glyph.

And what about a two figure Unique Squad: Harvey Bullock and Renee Montoya. :twisted:

I'm down with Batgirl. Don't know Harvey Bullock and Renee Montoya.

[IAmBatman]

Oracle as a Glyph? No way. Lame. :-P She's a field general.
Azrael belongs in a future Nightfall related Booster.
Batgirl (Cassie) will definitely find a place - she's just too important to me for it not to happen. But I think Oracle is more important for the set, personally.
And Bat-Mite? Really? Mr. Mzxplkx (sp?) is a bigger priority ... and he's not a big priority, IMO. :-P
Bullock and Renee are something I'd like to see as well ... I could see Renee coming out (pardon the pun) as the Question, though, and Harvey, her, and some others coming in a later booster. I don't think they're key for the Master Set.
If Cassie's going in the Master Set, I'd rather swap out Huntress.

[Hahma]

If Cassie's going in the Master Set, I'd rather swap out Huntress.

No way man, Huntress is great.

[IAmBatman]

If Cassie's going in the Master Set, I'd rather swap out Huntress.

No way man, Huntress is great.

I feel the same about Oracle. :-D
I think one kick*ss female vigilante in the set and another female crime fighter who's more of a cheerleader makes more sense than two kick*ss female vigilantes.
Whoever doesn't make the cut of Huntress/Cassie will make a booster at some point.

[badgermaniac]

I have trouble coming up with too many Avenger villains - theirs just aren't that iconic outside of a couple like Ultron.

You obviously don't read Avengers books.

Kang isn't iconic? Count Nefaria? Grim Reaper? Thanos? Dr. Doom? Taskmaster? Super Adaptoid?

Just look at my custom villains...almost every one is a major Avengers villain that is pretty iconic within the Marvel universe (you can tell you are a DC guy).

The other thing with the Avengers is the whole team element. Groups like Squadron Sinister and Masters of Evil are logical choices for Avengers villains. Masters of Evil aren't iconic?

When putting together Avengers groups, you should also make them logical by era...way too many random groupings being suggested (though I haven't read the whole thread so maybe this was fixed).

Quicksilver, Witch, and Hawkeye should be together.

Ant Man, Thor, and Wasp should be together.

Wonderman, Beast, and maybe Ms. Marvel/Warbird should be together.

Black Knight could be with characters like Sersi or Crystal.

You get the idea.

While I have zero interest in any DC figures/characters of any kind for instance, I would be interested in certain well-done Avengers customs, but I am not sure I see enough understanding of the figures to believe they will be an improvement over what is out there already (in much the same way that you seem to understand the DC set that I believe you are still making).

[badgermaniac]

Here's my rationale ...

Wasp, Giant Man, Vision and Ultron are all strongly thematically linked and should be released at the same time. Wasp and Giant Man should be obvious - Giant Man created Ultron and Ultron created Vision so having that generational link is really cool.
I


I would STRONGLY disagree with this grouping. While Vision indeed has that link to Pym and so forth, he is from a much different era. It would be like saying that Peyton Manning should be grouped with Archie Manning because of their blood ties, as opposed to players from their era (Peyton with Favre, Archie with Bradshaw, etc.).

Vision did not emerge until around the 60th issue or so, so putting him in a group with the founding members makes little sense.

I would view it as putting non-hairy Beast with Emma Frost in terms of eras (not quite that extreme, but you get the point).

Vision would work better with characters like the Black Panther for instance, as both were staples in that issue 60-100 era.

[badgermaniac]

And by the way, before I check out, you can obviously do whatever you want (duh)....just throwing in my $0.02 whenever it comes to Avengers (as the discussion about them is obviously what is interesting to me).

[IAmBatman]

I have trouble coming up with too many Avenger villains - theirs just aren't that iconic outside of a couple like Ultron.

You obviously don't read Avengers books.

Nope. Most people don't, though. :-P That's why they're not that iconic.
I said that as more of a conversation starter than anything, though, to figure out what Avengers villains people would be interested in. So far it seems to have only struck a chord in you, our resident Avengers villain lover.

Kang isn't iconic?

Kang is semi-iconic. He's no Magneto or Sabretooth.

Count Nefaria?

Not iconic.

Grim Reaper?

Not iconic.

Thanos? Dr. Doom?

In the official Master Set, so I'm in no rush to do them. Also, though he overlaps, I consider Doom more of a Fantastic Four villain.

Taskmaster?

Heard of him, but don't know much about him. Not particularly iconic. Not on the level of Batman or Spider-man villains.

Super Adaptoid?

Seriously? Not at all iconic. Less iconic than Amazo, who I don't consider particularly iconic. :-P

Just look at my custom villains...almost every one is a major Avengers villain that is pretty iconic within the Marvel universe (you can tell you are a DC guy).

If I hadn't looked at your customs, I would've never heard of Graviton. :-P

The other thing with the Avengers is the whole team element. Groups like Squadron Sinister and Masters of Evil are logical choices for Avengers villains. Masters of Evil aren't iconic?

I like the Wrecking Crew. More iconic than either of those you listed, IMO. Masters of Evil I've heard of, but couldn't name a single member off the top of my head. So ... semi-iconic? Squadron Sinister I've never heard of. I'll have to look them up, thanks.

When putting together Avengers groups, you should also make them logical by era...way too many random groupings being suggested (though I haven't read the whole thread so maybe this was fixed).

You should look more at the recent posts.

Quicksilver, Witch, and Hawkeye should be together.

In my latest Mighty Avengers proposal, Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch are together. They're in there with Wonderman and I forget who else. Hawkeye might have made that cut. Though, honestly, I'm in no rush to do Hawkeye due to Green Arrow being in the World's Finest set.
I think I ended up including Ms. Marvel in that set.

Ant Man, Thor, and Wasp should be together.

Yep, you definitely haven't read the more recent posts. They're together with Vision and Ultron in the Avengers Assemble booster (the first Avengers booster). Although Pym is Giant Man, not Ant Man. I would've gone with Ant Man myself, but people seem to prefer Giant Man. Talk to Mr. Helm on that one. :-)

Wonderman, Beast, and maybe Ms. Marvel/Warbird should be together.

I prefer Wonderman with Scarlet Witch since they were romantically involved. I have zero interest in doing Beast the Avenger after doing Beast in the X-Men Master Set ...

Black Knight could be with characters like Sersi or Crystal.

These three are considerably on the back burner, for reasons you could probably surmise. So no proposals featuring them yet. But I'm aware of the characters. I could see doing Sersi and Crystal in an eventual Inhumans booster with Blackbolt, Lockjaw, and Medusa. But ... Black Bolt has such a darn expensive mini and there's almost no point of doing an Inhumans booster without him.

You get the idea.

Yep. Been brainstorming about a lot of this same stuff for a while.

While I have zero interest in any DC figures/characters of any kind for instance, I would be interested in certain well-done Avengers customs, but I am not sure I see enough understanding of the figures to believe they will be an improvement over what is out there already (in much the same way that you seem to understand the DC set that I believe you are still making).

As always, thanks for your kind words and support. :-D

[IAmBatman]

Here's my rationale ...

Wasp, Giant Man, Vision and Ultron are all strongly thematically linked and should be released at the same time. Wasp and Giant Man should be obvious - Giant Man created Ultron and Ultron created Vision so having that generational link is really cool.
I


I would STRONGLY disagree with this grouping. While Vision indeed has that link to Pym and so forth, he is from a much different era. It would be like saying that Peyton Manning should be grouped with Archie Manning because of their blood ties, as opposed to players from their era (Peyton with Favre, Archie with Bradshaw, etc.).

Vision did not emerge until around the 60th issue or so, so putting him in a group with the founding members makes little sense.

I would view it as putting non-hairy Beast with Emma Frost in terms of eras (not quite that extreme, but you get the point).

Vision would work better with characters like the Black Panther for instance, as both were staples in that issue 60-100 era.

I think it's a cool/fun grouping. But I understand your perspective. :-)
And I can't see us really ever getting to a non-hairy Beast at all.
And Vision and Pym (in various forms) have certainly fought together, haven't they?

[IAmBatman]

Out of curiosity, who do you see as a better way to round out a Giant Man (I know you're probably unhappy it's not Ant Man), Wasp, Thor, Ultron set than Vision?

Edit: This question is directed to Badgermaniac, in case that's unclear. :-) And it should be noted that this is a serious question and genuine curiosity. No ironic or sarcastic tone implied, I promise.

[IAmBatman]

So, Witchblade? Spawn? Judge Dredd? What five heroes are the biggest priorities for Indy booster #1? I'm assuming (safely, I hope) that Hellboy is on that list. But who else?

[whitestuff]

So, if you got 4 heroes to go with Hellboy, what are your picks, gentlemen?

So, Witchblade? Spawn? Judge Dredd? What five heroes are the biggest priorities for Indy booster #1? I'm assuming (safely, I hope) that Hellboy is on that list. But who else?
Always in such a hurry...
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb279/bwhit89/netpic/Batman-vs-Shark.gif

Here is my own list of five... (I had a look and tried to pick the best that were also cheap enough.)

Hellboy
Aphrodite IX
Judge Dredd
Shi
Witchblade

[IAmBatman]

I just get antsy when I think I'm the only one awake. Oye, I'm starting to dream in lists of superheroes. :-P
That's a good list of five right there, though, I'll update. :-)

[IAmBatman]

I also swapped some things around in the spoiler, and the "Titans Go" booster is now in Wave Three. :-D

[badgermaniac]

Out of curiosity, who do you see as a better way to round out a Giant Man (I know you're probably unhappy it's not Ant Man), Wasp, Thor, Ultron set than Vision?

Edit: This question is directed to Badgermaniac, in case that's unclear. :-) And it should be noted that this is a serious question and genuine curiosity. No ironic or sarcastic tone implied, I promise.

First, as to characters like Masters of Evil or Kang not being iconic villains, I think that is more a testament to what you read. For instance, I have never even heard of Amazo, and yet he is more iconic than the Kang the Conqueror? That is just a testament to what I read. Bottom line is that yes, characters like Grim Reaper or Masters of Evil are very iconic, which is why they keep reappearing in every era.

I certainly think that most of the guys I listed are less iconic than the Joker, Lex Luthor, Magneto, Doom, Green Goblin, and so forth, but Kang not iconic? Seriously?

The Wrecking Crew is another good one, as is the Lethal Legion.

As for which version of Pym, Giant Man is fine, since he was only Ant Man for 1, maybe 2, issues.

So, who would I group with Pym, Wasp, and Thor?

Some options:

1. I know it is a conceptual jump, but remake cards for Cap, Iron Man, or Hulk.

2. Characters from the same era are Cap's Kooky Quartet (QS, SW, and Hawkeye), and a year or two later, Black Widow and Hercules. The problem is that these guys really didn't fight together with those founding three until much later.

3. Abandon those three for later. Choose a distinct era to run with, and then use Wasp, GM, and Thor as fillers, as they are characters that can fit with any set.

4. Leave those three alone and fill with Avengers villains. The problem with this is that frankly, most of the early Avengers villains sucked and/or featured early versions of the characters that drastically changed over time. In fact, Ultron, who is strongly iconic for the Avengers, did not appear until issue 60 or thereabouts (right before Vision). So, while he fits with Vision, he doesn't really fit with the original founding three (in terms of a founding father theme).

I think I would go with choice 3. Since we already have cards for 3 of the originals, and since the others fit so easily elsewhere, I would run with a set as noted in #2. If you need a 6th, Pym (as Goliath) was closely linked in that group.

So, I would go with:

Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye, Quicksilver, Goliath, Black Widow, and Hercules.

Villains for them include Sworsdsman, Kang, Doom, Power Man, Serpent Society, Living Laser, Sub-Mariner, Diablo/Dragon Man, Super Adaptoid

Just my preference, but you know I much prefer thematic groupings as opposed to a more random hodge podge of characters (even if every one isn't iconic. :D

[GreyOwl]

Bats, a couple of characters I'd like to work into your list if possible: Black Widow and Black Cat. Black Widow could either be with the Hell's Kitchen group or Avengers.

[Hahma]

Word

[Xn F M]

I'm just throwing in my two cents here, but I've always seen Quicksilver as an iconic X-men character (specifically X-Factor) rather than an iconic Avengers character. Maybe it just speaks to what I read but when I think of Quicksilver, I'm immidiately pictureing him with dudes like Havoc, Strong Guy, and Multiple Man in tow.

Though I can see the logic in releaseing him in your Avengers release as he would tie in with the X-Men master set, and potentially seed an X-Factor themed booster in the future.

[badgermaniac]

I'm just throwing in my two cents here, but I've always seen Quicksilver as an iconic X-men character (specifically X-Factor) rather than an iconic Avengers character. Maybe it just speaks to what I read but when I think of Quicksilver, I'm immidiately pictureing him with dudes like Havoc, Strong Guy, and Multiple Man in tow.

Though I can see the logic in releasing him in your Avengers release as he would tie in with the X-Men master set, and potentially seed an X-Factor themed booster in the future.

I certainly am aware of the crossover, but could you or another big X-Men fan give a synopsis of his "X-Men existence"?

My perception was always that Stan Lee took a couple throwaway villains from early X-Men, and then ran with them in the Avengers books. Later, he did reappear (w/X-Men) while on Avengers hiatus.

He first appeared in Avengers in issue #16 with the creation of the new team. He was a regular for about 100 issues, or about 8-9 years.

He made guest appearances for a few years, before becoming a regular again for another 20 issues or so in the late 70's, which puts his total count up to 10-11 years as a regular with the Avengers.

After another hiatus, he came back around issue 330 or so, at which time he was more or less a regular for the rest of the original run (issue 400), so that is another 60 issues or so, putting the total run up to maybe 15-17 years.

Throw in maybe 20 appearances in volume 3, and another 10 or so in WCA, and you are looking at close to 20 years as an Avengers regular (or around 200 issues, not including he sporadic appearances here and there).

My impression of his X-Men "life" was that it was something like 50 issues, so I would love to hear a synopsis (not as detailed as mine per se, but just a general observation) taking it from the other side. I did not read X-Factor, but I always thought of that as maybe 30 issues or so.

[Xn F M]

Quicksliver isn't really a character i can "nerd-out on" on command, but I can do some research and chime back in around lunch time.

[badgermaniac]

Thanks...like I said, no "nerding out" required...just a general impression is all I am curious about.

It is an interesting position that I hadn't thought about, so I am wondering what I missed.

[IAmBatman]

First, as to characters like Masters of Evil or Kang not being iconic villains, I think that is more a testament to what you read. For instance, I have never even heard of Amazo, and yet he is more iconic than the Kang the Conqueror? That is just a testament to what I read. Bottom line is that yes, characters like Grim Reaper or Masters of Evil are very iconic, which is why they keep reappearing in every era.

I certainly think that most of the guys I listed are less iconic than the Joker, Lex Luthor, Magneto, Doom, Green Goblin, and so forth, but Kang not iconic? Seriously?


I said Amazo is more iconic than Super Adaptoid (and that neither are iconic). I believe I called Kang "semi-iconic." Outside of Thanos, Doom, and Loki, I'd call him the closest to iconic of the bunch.
Actually, though, Kang made #65 on this list (http://comics.ign.com/top-100-villains/65.html) which is pretty darn good, so I'll go ahead and roll with calling him "iconic." It's mostly a matter of your definition of "iconic" though, and, to be honest, I'm messing you at least a little bit. :-P


The Wrecking Crew is another good one, as is the Lethal Legion.

I'd definitely like to work both of these in eventually. Every booster is a comic nerd's version of Sophie's choice, though. :-P


As for which version of Pym, Giant Man is fine, since he was only Ant Man for 1, maybe 2, issues.

That's good to hear, since the people seem to want Giant Man.


So, who would I group with Pym, Wasp, and Thor?

Some options:

1. I know it is a conceptual jump, but remake cards for Cap, Iron Man, or Hulk.

I'd like to do C3G versions of all of those cards, honestly (except maybe Cap, whom I consider "perfect"). But not in Wave One. Way too soon.


2. Characters from the same era are Cap's Kooky Quartet (QS, SW, and Hawkeye), and a year or two later, Black Widow and Hercules. The problem is that these guys really didn't fight together with those founding three until much later.

I'd like the first Avengers set to have that "Avengers Assemble" theme, which means Wasp, Giant Man, and Thor are necessities IMO. I'd like to give them at least one villain as well, so I'd prefer not to do QS or SW as they should really be released together, IMO.
Hawkeye wouldn't be a horrible choice, but it feels too close to Green Arrow for him to be released this soon. So I feel he's a guy we can wait a few waves on (though I definitely still want to make a Hawkeye).
Hercules is a bit too much like Thor in terms of how the character would play, so I'd prefer to wait on him. Thor seems like a more important character to cover early. And I have to live for the present (or near future at least) in a lot of these decisions, because as much as I'd like us to go to Wave 30 and beyond, part of me knows we might not make it past wave 1 - so ... Sophie's Choice for Comic Nerds. :-P Thor takes priority.
Black Widow wouldn't be a horrible idea at all. Looks like there's some love being shown for her. Would people like the Avengers Assemble booster better with Black Widow in it instead of Vision?
My one thing with that is I was holding off on Black Widow until she could be released with Nick Fury and in the same wave with some SHIELD agents and HYDRA terrorists.


3. Abandon those three for later. Choose a distinct era to run with, and then use Wasp, GM, and Thor as fillers, as they are characters that can fit with any set.

I guess part of me is viewing this as "if I can only get one Avengers booster out of this, who do I want in it?" The realization that as committed as I am to this project, it could fall apart at any moment is guiding me to an extent.
Also, people have expressed that they feel Thor is a necessity for this wave, so I really feel anything we do should be built around him.
And don't you want to see all four founding members come out (Hulk, Thor, Wasp, Pym)?


4. Leave those three alone and fill with Avengers villains. The problem with this is that frankly, most of the early Avengers villains sucked and/or featured early versions of the characters that drastically changed over time. In fact, Ultron, who is strongly iconic for the Avengers, did not appear until issue 60 or thereabouts (right before Vision). So, while he fits with Vision, he doesn't really fit with the original founding three (in terms of a founding father theme).

Man, you guys drive me nuts. :-P I tried pitching a set with just Vision and Ultron, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, and Thor, and someone tells me that Ultron and Pym should be in the same set, because Pym created him. Now you're telling me just about the opposite.


I think I would go with choice 3. Since we already have cards for 3 of the originals, and since the others fit so easily elsewhere, I would run with a set as noted in #2. If you need a 6th, Pym (as Goliath) was closely linked in that group.

I think we have to assume we're only going to be able to get to one version of Pym at any point in the foreseeable future. That version probably should be Giant Man, due to popular demand.
What would you think of rolling with:

Vision, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Thor, Ultron ?


Villains for them include Sworsdsman, Kang, Doom, Power Man, Serpent Society, Living Laser, Sub-Mariner, Diablo/Dragon Man, Super Adaptoid

Good list of villains - I'll hang on to that. Namor is definitely going to come in at some point, but I'm not sure if this soon.
Living Laser has nice flexibility, because he could be in either an Avengers villain themed booster or an Iron Man one.
I only care to do one Power Man card, and it'll be for Luke Cage, as a hero.
Serpent Society - do they have any good figures? I think I get them and HYDRA mixed up in my head a lot. I blame Viper.
Dragon Man would almost have to come in a large figure release.
Do you think Kang fits better as an Avenger's villain or a Fantastic Four villain? I really think that one's up for debate.
I've got Doom slated for a C3G version in a Fantastic Four Master Set. That way his Doom Bots can be one of the squads in that set as well.


Just my preference, but you know I much prefer thematic groupings as opposed to a more random hodge podge of characters (even if every one isn't iconic. :D

I enjoy thematic groupings as well. But, you've got to admit, "hodge podge" is kind of the Heroscape way of doing things.

Bats, a couple of characters I'd like to work into your list if possible: Black Widow and Black Cat. Black Widow could either be with the Hell's Kitchen group or Avengers.

Like I said above, I really could see Black Widow released with Nick Fury a lot better. But if you'd rather see her in the Avengers Assemble set than Vision, I think that might fit decently.
Black Cat I'd like to save for a future Booster I call "Along Came a Spider" that would include Black Suit Spidey, Scarlet Spider, Carnage, and Toxin.
She's a cool character, but I can't see her as top priority ... maybe others disagree? It's hard when there are about 500 characters I want to do right away! :lol:

I'm just throwing in my two cents here, but I've always seen Quicksilver as an iconic X-men character (specifically X-Factor) rather than an iconic Avengers character. Maybe it just speaks to what I read but when I think of Quicksilver, I'm immidiately pictureing him with dudes like Havoc, Strong Guy, and Multiple Man in tow.

Though I can see the logic in releaseing him in your Avengers release as he would tie in with the X-Men master set, and potentially seed an X-Factor themed booster in the future.

I really think Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch could fit in a number of places, including Brotherhood and Avengers. Or even a mutant themed Genosha set with Polaris, Blink, and maybe Havok.
But, I'd like to get them in an Avengers set. The nice thing with getting them out early, though, if we can, is they definitely pull double duty as X-Men villains and Avengers heroes. That thematic flexibility will really double their fun. :-)

[Xn F M]

I read mostly X-Men titles when I was younger, so most of my knowledge from the late 80's - early/mid 90's comes from there. That being said, I was aware of Quicksilver having been a member of the brotherhood however that was really before my time. I was also aware of Quicksilver as a member of the Avengers, I didn't read Avengers much though, generally I'd only pick them up when they tied into other books I read more. Really the same goes for X-Factor at the time.

I rember QS sort of being the defacto second in command for the team (being one of the only two really assertive characters in the book at the time). In retrospect though, I'm thinking the X-Men > Avengers association comes mostly from being an X-Men guy (never really liked the Avengers). Though it is worth pointing out that Quicksilver is a "bad guy" again in the current X-Men/X-Factor titles; he's nearly a completely different character after House of M, but it's still Peitro Maximoff.

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, both he and Scarlet Witch have really been all over the map as characters. That makes them pretty interesting though, and means they should make for really fun inclusions to our set.
They're definitely characters I want to get out there sooner rather than later.

[badgermaniac]

1. Maybe iconic is a bad word, as very few characters are truly iconic, including most of the figures I see on your preliminary list. My point was simply that there are a lot of good, meaty, and well-know Avengers villains to choose from.

2. Clinging to the "well, this is what most people seem to want" argument is somewhat weak IMO. That certainly may be the way to go, but I think if you want these things to really appeal to people and give it a real sense of authenticity, then you go for what makes sense, not what casual fans want. If you have someone who really knows the Defenders or the Teen Titans, then I think you should rely on their expertise rather than go with a simply majority rule. That is truly the best way to get real flavor.

It kind of goes back to the debate some time ago about Pym being a leader based on the logic that he could see over the battlefield and command his troops. While this is theoretically true, it did not make much sense thematically to anyone who was truly familiar with Pym's character.

So, do you want the easy way out by bowing to some general consensus, or do you want the best, most thematic set? I think there are ways to do both while still maintaining your community aspect.

As an obvious Avenger fan, I was pointing out grouping that did or did not make as much sense, regardless of what the general opinion was.

3. With regards to some of these characters, the NM24 versions are as good as you are going to get IMO. When you look at the card quality and the thematic strength of many of them, I think you are reinventing the wheel in some cases. While I am not involved with your group process, I have noted before that I feel that time is wasted in places that frankly, don't need work. So, with regards to Thor, I might rhetorically ask that question. While everyone agrees that Thor is one of the Avengers biggies, is the need really pressing? Are the current NM24 Thors sufficient? Is there an area of greater need that would also be more thematic? Do you bend the theme JUST BECAUSE you want Thor now? Something to think about.

4. Ultron and Pym certainly could be in the same set, as they are obviously linked (yes, Pym created him), but Ultron doesn't really fit with the founding father theme, as he was years down the road.

If you were doing an Ultron set (and he is a must for any Avenger lover...hence he was one of the first customs I did)...you might call it Pym Legacy or something kind of corny like that and go with Ultron, Vision, Jocasta, Giant Man, Wasp, and Yellowjacket (yes, two versions of Pym, which kind of makes sense with his split personality).

Granted, this isn't the way I would go (I like them themed by era), but just another way to look at it.

5. I couldn't tell for sure (and I think you know it), but the Power Man I was referring to is not Luke Cage.

6. Don't believe that Serpent Society has figures, but I believe there are a couple versions. One was a costumed bunch of villains. The other, actually called "Sons of the Serpent" is actually more of a radical subversive group. They would work great for squads as you could use any common thug/civilian type figures.

7. I think Kang is far and away more an Avengers villain, much like Magneto is an X-men villian or Doom is a FF villain, even though both have faced the Avengers many times.

I counted 84 Avengers appearances and 4 FF appearances.

Now, that number of 4 seems ridiculously low, but remmber that he has aliases such as Rama-Tut and Immortus, which may boost his FF numbers (as well as the Avengers numbers). Bottom line, first and foremost, he is an Avengers guy IMO.

8. As for "hodge-podge" being the HS way. I disagree. While the overall game comes off that way with all the different themed squads, each booster is generally very tightly themed (all Romans, all Greeks, all Marro, etc.). I realize that for retail purposes, the hero packs don't fit this as well, but still, I think HS is more thematically geared than you are presenting.

[IAmBatman]

1. Maybe iconic is a bad word, as very few characters are truly iconic, including most of the figures I see on your preliminary list. My point was simply that there are a lot of good, meaty, and well-know Avengers villains to choose from.

That seems like a fairer assessment. Though I'd argue that many of those that made your list really aren't very well known outside of the Avengers fanbase. Kang, Doom, Thanos, Loki, sure. The others? Some probably, but a lot are pretty iffy in that regard.
I'm not at all against doing lesser known characters though, don't get me wrong. Heck, I spearheaded the inclusion of Count Vertigo in the World's Finest set. :-D I really only brought up the "iconic" thing to begin with as a way to get people talking about good Avenger villains to include. Looks like it's mission accomplished on that. Thanks for the help. :-)

2. Clinging to the "well, this is what most people seem to want" argument is somewhat weak IMO. That certainly may be the way to go, but I think if you want these things to really appeal to people and give it a real sense of authenticity, then you go for what makes sense, not what casual fans want. If you have someone who really knows the Defenders or the Teen Titans, then I think you should rely on their expertise rather than go with a simply majority rule. That is truly the best way to get real flavor.

I think we can accomplish a balance between both these criteria, honestly. And when it comes to using "what people want" as a guideline, I'm not talking about the casual fan like you or Ollie. I'm talking about what the people working on the project actively want, like Matt Helm or Hahma. :-)

It kind of goes back to the debate some time ago about Pym being a leader based on the logic that he could see over the battlefield and command his troops. While this is theoretically true, it did not make much sense thematically to anyone who was truly familiar with Pym's character.

So, do you want the easy way out by bowing to some general consensus, or do you want the best, most thematic set? I think there are ways to do both while still maintaining your community aspect.

Absolutely agree with what's in bold here.

As an obvious Avenger fan, I was pointing out grouping that did or did not make as much sense, regardless of what the general opinion was.

The only thing I'm absolutely trying to preserve based on general opinion is the inclusion of Thor in the first Avenger's booster. Other comments I made about what people thought were based on showing different opinions about what groupings do or do not make sense. :-)

3. With regards to some of these characters, the NM24 versions are as good as you are going to get IMO. When you look at the card quality and the thematic strength of many of them, I think you are reinventing the wheel in some cases. While I am not involved with your group process, I have noted before that I feel that time is wasted in places that frankly, don't need work. So, with regards to Thor, I might rhetorically ask that question. While everyone agrees that Thor is one of the Avengers biggies, is the need really pressing? Are the current NM24 Thors sufficient? Is there an area of greater need that would also be more thematic? Do you bend the theme JUST BECAUSE you want Thor now? Something to think about.

I'm open to hearing what others think on this. For me, it's C3G or nothing (no disrespect to all the quality cards put out elsewhere, but if it's not playtested and put through this process, it's just not the same for me). So I'm still all about us doing Thor.

4. Ultron and Pym certainly could be in the same set, as they are obviously linked (yes, Pym created him), but Ultron doesn't really fit with the founding father theme, as he was years down the road.

Well it's an Avenger's Assemble theme, which is kind of a founding father team, but could basically be from any era since that's their battle cry.

If you were doing an Ultron set (and he is a must for any Avenger lover...hence he was one of the first customs I did)...you might call it Pym Legacy or something kind of corny like that and go with Ultron, Vision, Jocasta, Giant Man, Wasp, and Yellowjacket (yes, two versions of Pym, which kind of makes sense with his split personality).

Not into doing two versions of Pym in the same booster at all. But fun idea for a thematic set. If we were to do something like that, though, I'd definitely wait on it for a few waves - Thor is the biggest Avenger priority, IMO.

5. I couldn't tell for sure (and I think you know it), but the Power Man I was referring to is not Luke Cage.

Oh, I'm aware of that. All I'm saying is the only version of Power Man I'm interested in seeing is Luke Cage, not the Avenger villain Power Man.

6. Don't believe that Serpent Society has figures, but I believe there are a couple versions. One was a costumed bunch of villains. The other, actually called "Sons of the Serpent" is actually more of a radical subversive group. They would work great for squads as you could use any common thug/civilian type figures.

I think that characters with readily available figures have to take precedent for the most part.

7. I think Kang is far and away more an Avengers villain, much like Magneto is an X-men villian or Doom is a FF villain, even though both have faced the Avengers many times.

I counted 84 Avengers appearances and 4 FF appearances.

Now, that number of 4 seems ridiculously low, but remmber that he has aliases such as Rama-Tut and Immortus, which may boost his FF numbers (as well as the Avengers numbers). Bottom line, first and foremost, he is an Avengers guy IMO.

Fair enough. I knew I didn't put him in that Fantastic Four Master Set for a reason. :-)

8. As for "hodge-podge" being the HS way. I disagree. While the overall game comes off that way with all the different themed squads, each booster is generally very tightly themed (all Romans, all Greeks, all Marro, etc.). I realize that for retail purposes, the hero packs don't fit this as well, but still, I think HS is more thematically geared than you are presenting.

"Snipers and Vipers" is pretty emblematic of how a typical Valhalla Heroscape booster is put together. There are a couple that go the other way (all Romans, all Orcs) but the majority does not. In fact, Greeks were packaged with Armoc Vipers, so even one of the examples you mentioned doesn't fit that mold.
I've yet to see a homogeneous wave from official Heroscape and I'd gamble that the majority of boosters are not homogeneous, though a few certainly are.
Now, that said, as much as I think hodgepodge is the "Heroscape way" I do like thematic boosters to an extent.
But we have to be flexible and place what characters we really want to see over the theme of the booster to some extent, IMO. We can't let theme absolutely dominate our decision making.
Still, there are ways to accomplish both to a reasonable extent.

Here are two ideas for adjusted versions of the Avengers Assemble booster. Of these, and the current idea (Thor, Vision, Giant Man, Wasp, Ultron) which do people like best?

Option 2
Thor
Scarlet Witch
Quicksilver
Vision
Ultron

Option 3
Thor
Giant Man
Wasp
Black Widow
Ultron

It should be noted that Loki might be the more thematically appropriate villain choice in some of these boosters, but figure cost has prohibited his inclusion.

[Eclipse]

Personally, I see Hawkeye as an iconic Avenger and if you want to do 5, I wouldn't leave him out. Not so much because he defines the team, but because the team defines him. He's almost never existed outside of the Avengers and while he hasn't always been a member of the primary team or an iconic founding member, he's probably stuck with the team more consistently than anyone else. Personally, I'd take the close release to Ollie as a challenge to make the characters and necessarily distinct as possible. Vision is another character that fits into this role nicely. I'd lean on Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch as well, but they're slightly more confusing by virtue of fitting under more banners than the others. The Pyms, Hawkeye, and Vision bear almost no other banner. Witch and Quicksilver certainly aren't bad choices though. In terms of fun mechanics I'd probably want them both over the Pyms to be honest.

As far as villains are concerned, Zemo, Kang, Ultron, and Loki would be my first picks. Actually, in a hazy sort of grey status, I think Namor would be a great pick as well, being an early villain, old friend, and sometimes hero sometimes foe for quite some time. I guess it largely depends on how many figures you're aiming for. I'd say 10 personally, but I wasn't paying that much attention until just now.

[IAmBatman]

Well for Wave One, we have three boosters of five available and one is slated for the Avengers.
That means five for the Avengers and it should include at least one villain for the sake of overall wave balance.
Now, keep in mind, I don't think this is the only Avengers booster we'll ever do or anything like this. It's just the first.
I was hoping to get Thor into it, because a lot of the heroes seemed to want to get him in this wave (Thor, Wolverine, and Juggernaut were the ones I heard people say were necessities).
Loki seemed like an obvious villain choice given that and given that he's really the "first" Avengers villain. He doesn't have a good sculpt at an affordable price though, so that makes me want to wait on him and hope that changes somewhat at some point (and if it doesn't, just keep going in a different direction for a while).
Zemo is certainly a big name when it comes to Avenger villains, but I'm not sure how interesting a Heroscape figure he'd make, so I figured it wouldn't be bad to wait on him until down the road.
That leaves Kang or Ultron for a villain. I could go either way, but Ultron seemed like a better fit if Vision or Giant Man were in the first set (if they're not, though, maybe not so much).

In terms of Iconic Avengers that haven't been done by the official game, here's my tentative "top ten" (in no particular order) which is really pretty much in agreement with what you're saying here, Eclipse:

Thor
Scarlet Witch
Quicksilver
Hawkeye
Vision
Wasp
Hank Pym (in his many versions - I think we're going Giant Man)
Black Widow (though she also goes under the SHIELD banner)
Falcon
And ... ok, maybe it's a top nine. Too hard to choose between Ms. Marvel, Hercules, Wonder Man, and Black Panther here. The last of these also fits in with Marvel Knights though, and has that Storm connection, so I could see Black Panther going in a lot of different boosters.

So, really, it's a matter of taking four heroes that fit together well from that list of Thor, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Hawkeye, Vision, Wasp, Giant Man, Black Widow, and Falcon, and knowing that there will be future Avengers waves for who we don't get to.

If people continue to agree that Thor is a priority, he's number one on that list.

I'd argue that Hawkeye would fit just about any Avengers release, so we can wait on him - in addition, in terms of gameplay I'm not interested in him right away since we already have one iconic "archer" in the World's Finest set.

Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver I like as options, but would want to see together.

Giant Man and Wasp I like as options, but would want to see together.

Vision, Black Widow, and Falcon could be thrown in together with Thor, or one from this group could work as a fourth wheel with Thor and one of the two groupings above. Falcon is the one in this group I'm most willing to wait on, as he does the least for me as a fan. Black Widow I like, but wouldn't she fit in better with Nick Fury?

So, I guess after all of that, I continue to see these as the best options for the Avengers Assemble booster:

Thor
Scarlet Witch
Quicksilver
Vision
Ultron (or Kang, I guess)

Thor
Wasp
Giant Man
Vision
Ultron (or Kang)

Though I'll throw this one up there as well as an option:

Thor
Scarlet Witch
Quicksilver
Black Widow
Ultron (or Kang)

[Eclipse]

How about this?

Avengers Assemble:
Thor
Giant Man
Wasp
(two villains - Ultron and Kang?)

Avengers West Coast:
Hawkeye
Scarlet Witch
Quicksilver
Vision
(one villain)

[IAmBatman]

Not bad ideas at all. That Avengers Assemble would basically be what I have now with Kang replacing Vision, which I'd totally be OK with.

Grim Reaper would be a good villain for the West Coast Avengers. Wouldn't Tigra and Wonder Man be more iconic West Coast Avengers than Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver though (were they even ever really on the team)?

I could see doing this for a three Avengers booster order:

AVENGERS ASSEMBLE
Thor
Giant Man
Wasp
Ultron
Kang the Conqueror

MIGHTY AVENGERS
Ms. Marvel
Scarlet Witch
Quicksilver
Iron Man
Black Widow

WEST COAST AVENGERS
Hawkeye
Vision
Tigra
Wonder Man
Grim Reaper

Then eventually throw in ...

MASTERS OF EVIL
Enchantress
Executioner
Black Knight
Baron Zemo
Radioactive Man (might be a better choice than him, but these were the original five. Maybe sub him out for Whirlwind?)

[IAmBatman]

GreyOwl's telling me he likes:

Thor
Scarlet Witch
Quicksilver
Ultron
Kang the Conqueror

I'd really like that one also and could easily shift what comes after, I believe. Heck, I could probably just shift Giant Man and Wasp to Mighty Avengers ...

[badgermaniac]

Not bad ideas at all. That Avengers Assemble would basically be what I have now with Kang replacing Vision, which I'd totally be OK with.

Grim Reaper would be a good villain for the West Coast Avengers. Wouldn't Tigra and Wonder Man be more iconic West Coast Avengers than Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver though (were they even ever really on the team)?

I could see doing this for a three Avengers booster order:

AVENGERS ASSEMBLE
Thor
Giant Man
Wasp
Ultron
Kang the Conqueror

MIGHTY AVENGERS
Ms. Marvel
Scarlet Witch
Quicksilver
Iron Man
Black Widow

WEST COAST AVENGERS
Hawkeye
Vision
Tigra
Wonder Man
Grim Reaper

Then eventually throw in ...

MASTERS OF EVIL
Enchantress
Executioner
Black Knight
Baron Zemo
Radioactive Man (might be a better choice than him, but these were the original five. Maybe sub him out for Whirlwind?)

First group is pretty good. Ultron isn't a perfect fit by era as we have noted, but in terms of classic villains, Kang and Ultron are right there, so that works fine.

Second group of Mighty Avengers, I think of the title Mighty Avengers (Sentry, Ares, etc.) Was Scarlet Witch ever a member of this group? Maybe just change the name? Was this supposed to a "modern" version of the team as the name suggests? Sentry and Ares would fit, but are there minis? I think you just go with something like Avengers Forever and get some classic characters. Widow was never a member until the recent versions of the team, so in that case, she should probably go (put her in a Shield group or something).

For WCA, Vision is a bad choice. He, like the Reaper, belongs more in the second group. Iron Man or War Machine should be moved down to WCA, as he (Rhodes in IM's suit) was a founding WCA member. Mockingbird needs to be in this group IMO.

The bad part about the WCA is that their villains were marginal (a downfall of the series IMO). Their highest profile villains don't have minis. I would just leave them as all heroes and if you get far enough, make a set of Avengers villains to balance it out.

For Masters of Evil, there are lots of good choices, as many are interechangable. I like Absorbing Man as a unique character, but don't have any problems with your list.

So...

AVENGERS ASSEMBLE
Thor
Giant Man
Wasp
Ultron
Kang the Conqueror

AVENGERS FOREVER
Ms. Marvel (She-Hulk would work as well).
Scarlet Witch
Quicksilver
Vision
Grim Reaper (or, maybe Black Panther if you want to go all heroes).

WEST COAST AVENGERS
Hawkeye
Iron Man
Tigra
Wonder Man
Mockingbird

AVENGING FORCES
Grim Reaper
Taskmaster
Super-Adaptoid
Count Nefaria
Graviton

[IAmBatman]

Crap. I realized that our current proposed format is based on a severe accounting error ...
For some reason, I was thinking we still had seven heroes. With Spidey seeming happy to take the figure assigning role, that left six designers, so a wave of 15 heroes, 2 squads, and the Destructible Objects would mean 3 things for each hero to design. Nice and smooth.
Buuuuut - ooops - turns out we have eight heroes. What would people feel about just bumping up each hero booster to 6 figures? That would be by far the cleanest way to adjust for that number of heroes without losing any progress in this discussion.
Griff says he's good with designing and playtesting that many figures at a time. I figure we're going to want to get these units out sooner or later, so we might as well do a bunch at once. Also, opening up boosters to six heroes might help us better find the "ideal" thematic combinations.

[IAmBatman]

OK, here's an adjusted look at Wave One with the idea of the hero boosters being six figures each:

WAVE ONE: JUSTICE AND VENGEANCE

BOOSTER ONE: BRAVE AND THE BOLD
Martian Manhunter
Booster Gold
Blue Beetle
Zatanna
Etrigan
Gorilla Grodd

BOOSTER TWO: AVENGERS ASSEMBLE
Thor
Scarlet Witch
Quicksilver
Vision
Kang the Conqueror
Ultron

BOOSTER THREE: BROTHERHOOD OF MUTANTS
Juggernaut
Sabretooth
Avalanche
Black Tom
Mastermind
Wolverine

BOOSTER FOUR: To be named ... (It would only be two of these three - too hard to find another Marvel squad that would work by itself well, so Parademons are a possible Sentinel replacement).

Humanoid Sentinels (common squad of three) or Parademons (common squad of 3)
White Martians (common squad of two)

DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECTS CARDS (2)

[GreyOwl]

What are Parademons?

[IAmBatman]

They're basically Darkseid's minions.

http://spider-bob.com/aliens_races/dc/images/Parademons03.jpg

Heroclix offers Warriors (http://shop.strikezoneonline.com/Category/158/9581-018_Parademon_Warrior.html) and Scouts (http://shop.strikezoneonline.com/Category/158/9588-018_Parademon_Scout.html) for them, though I'd be happy to combine the two figures into a single squad.

From Wikipedia: "In the DC Universe, Parademons are monstrous shock troops of Apokolips used by Darkseid to maintain the order of Apokolips."

[Eclipse]

Not bad ideas at all. That Avengers Assemble would basically be what I have now with Kang replacing Vision, which I'd totally be OK with.

Grim Reaper would be a good villain for the West Coast Avengers. Wouldn't Tigra and Wonder Man be more iconic West Coast Avengers than Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver though (were they even ever really on the team)?


For what its worth:

Yeah, they were all on the team, though they weren't for particularly long. I was really just putting in the iconic Avengers spread over two sets, choosing West Coast since Hawkeye was the primary leader of the second grouping, with the other 3 based on family history (Vision marries Scarlet brother of Quicksilver). It had less to do with the West Coast name and more about getting the big names in two sets.

[IAmBatman]

Gotcha. Yeah, I understand that mentality (and share it to a large extent). I just didn't want Badger getting irked by a West Coast Avengers booster that wasn't West Coasty enough. :-D

[badgermaniac]

Why would I get irked. It is your project. Do what you want. I already have cards for all the characters I desire so I am already good to go.

Though logically, I don't quite know why you would call them WCA if you had characters that aren't from the WCA.

I guess you have to decide whether you want a tightly themed group, or just want the characters you want. I was just trying to help if you wanted the former.

[IAmBatman]

"Irked" probably wasn't the right choice of words - but I hope the smiley showed I wasn't being 100% serious. :-P

[Spidey'tilIDie]

OMG, so much to catch up on! I get sick and out of commision for a week and... WOW. Anyway, can I ask a question Bats, why no War Machine or US Agent? Both are pretty iconic Avengers of the last 15-20 years.

[IAmBatman]

I'm redoing everything after Wave One, so don't put too much into anything past that point yet. :-P

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Can I assist you? I feel like this is a place where I can really earn my stripes as a hero. To me part of the beauty of what we have done so far is mixing the iconic with the obscure. I have a good knowledge of Heroclix and a great knowledge of both universes. I think this is where I can really contribute.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

FWIW, Loki is currently a female in Continuity and there is a pretty cheap mini of said Loki.

[IAmBatman]

Female Loki? Just not as interested, current continuity or not ...

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Me either, I was just pointing it out.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I am way onboard with us making the iconic versions of characters, at least as much as possible.

[Hahma]

BOOSTER FOUR: To be named ... (It would only be two of these three - too hard to find another Marvel squad that would work by itself well, so Parademons are a possible Sentinel replacement).

Humanoid Sentinels (common squad of three) or Parademons (common squad of 3)
White Martians (common squad of two)

DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECTS CARDS (2)

Personally, I perfer Parademons over Humanoid Sentinel Troopers. I think the only Sentinels that are really needed/iconic are the big ones. With Darkseid just released, the Parademons would be cool.

[GreyOwl]

What about a booster at some point dedicated to Iron Man?

Obidiah Stane/Iron Monger
Whiplash
War Machine
and maybe a few of the more unique Iron Man armors, like Hydro Armor, Stealth, Hulkbuster, or Thorbuster.

[Eclipse]

Female Loki? Just not as interested, current continuity or not ...

That's not even current continuity...

[IAmBatman]

What about a booster at some point dedicated to Iron Man?

Obidiah Stane/Iron Monger
Whiplash
War Machine
and maybe a few of the more unique Iron Man armors, like Hydro Armor, Stealth, Hulkbuster, or Thorbuster.

It's definitely something I'd like to do at some point. The problem is fitting all of these in without feeling like we're leaving something out. :-P It's a delicate balance, but Griff and I worked out a possible path that would take us to Wave 6 (which includes Warmachine in a booster and Mandarin) that I think is pretty fair and balanced across the board.
Spidey, I definitely would love to get your input about all of this - especially on the squads. I think you guys in general are apt to be more passionate about squads than I am. We're currently bumping squads every three waves to put in the Indy boosters, which I'm OK with as heroes are the main emphasis here.
If we try to balance between DC squads and Marvel squads, that means for Waves 1-6 we would have 4 squad boosters with 8 squads in them (and 4 DC squads and 4 Marvel squads over that period).
We're also tentatively looking at that Fantastic Four Master Set (maybe after Wave 3?) and Gotham Knights Master Set (maybe after wave 6?) which would each include two related squads.
I'd love if you could help me work out a squad release schedule everyone could be happy with, Spidey. I have some ideas about squads, but they're not fully fleshed out.
I do really want White Martians in wave one to go with Martian Manhunter, though. :-D

Female Loki? Just not as interested, current continuity or not ...

That's not even current continuity...

Good to know!

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Female Loki? Just not as interested, current continuity or not ...

That's not even current continuity...
Since when? That must be a really recent development. She is still a member of the Cabal in Dark Reign: the Seige.

[Eclipse]

Female Loki? Just not as interested, current continuity or not ...

That's not even current continuity...
Since when? That must be a really recent development. She is still a member of the Cabal in Dark Reign: the Seige.

It was several months ago in JMS's actual Thor book, but the rest of the Marvel U has been really bad about how they handled it. I'm sure its a big part of why JMS stormed off the title along with being forced to include Siege in what he was doing. Marvel has largely been playing the continuity card on the matter, saying a lot of their other books just aren't moving as fast as Thor so they haven't caught up. I know there was a week that featured something stupid like Male Loki in one Avengers book and female in another. It shouldn't be there for Siege: The Cabal (I assume that's what you were referring to) but its possible Marvel just retconned it out entirely when they decided to give JMS the finger on the whole thing.

It's messy and complicated and it'll probably be a few months before it all gets fixed, but Loki is supposed to be male currently.

EDIT: I think its in Thor #602.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Hmmm. I don't read Thor, so thanks for the heads up. I know that just like in the original incarnation of Avengers, the current Hank Pym-led Mighty Avengers were formed by Loki (female version), but they have obviously not caught up with Thor yet. Out of curiousity, how did he switch back?

[IAmBatman]

Sex change operation. :-D

[Balantai]

They held his nose shut and blew really hard into his mouth? ;)

[A3n]

:rofl:

[Eclipse]

Hmmm. I don't read Thor, so thanks for the heads up. I know that just like in the original incarnation of Avengers, the current Hank Pym-led Mighty Avengers were formed by Loki (female version), but they have obviously not caught up with Thor yet. Out of curiousity, how did he switch back?

He was reborn initially in his normal male body, but then took control of the body meant for Sif in order to better sell the "I've changed" angle. Once he'd accomplished has scheme (killing Bor and having Thor banished from Asgard) he returned to his normal form, mostly because it forces Thor to give up a ton of power to save Sif. Now that JMS is off the book though I'm not sure what Loki's deal is. It's possible someone's decided he can switch genders at will these days, but I thought I read in an interview that he's supposed to be returning to his male form across everything once they've finished up the stories they're running where he's still female.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I have been doing some thinking lately, and I have come up with some observations. Part of our issue with the Boosters, one that we haven't really addressed is that, as of right now, we seem to have to release Marvel together and DC together. The thing I have thinking of is how this really flies in the face of the idea of Heroscape. If you consider that Marvel Heroes, DC Heroes, Marvel Villains, and DC Villains are like the different generals in Traditional Heroscape, then a booster can and should vary as to which "generals" are contained in each pack. So, a pack of Thor, Black Adam, Captain Marvel, Storm, and Black Lightning makes sense as a booster called "Thunder and Lightning." This way theme can go over instead of just Avengers Assemble or whatnot.

Ideally, we would come up with a fancy background story that tied the four together under actual generals, i.e. Odin, Zeus, Pluto, Hela, maybe. Or Beyonder, Galactus, Anti-Monitor, Phantom Stranger. Just an idea, and this seemed like the place for it.

[GreyOwl]

I'm actually in favor of that idea and proposed it way back when we first started talking about this stuff. So it's good with me. :)

I understand people don't want to mix universes, but these are all so close.

[Matt Helm]

My only caution to mixing them is that we run the risk of losing site on synergy. The idea of keeping the universes in one pack is only easier in that characters that blend together can be worked on together. You'd hate to have the problem where we want to go back and change a card because we thought of a cool idea when the second partner was finally released.

For example. Hank Pym and the Wasp have to be worked on at the same time. Sometimes it doesn't matter as much like in the case of Batman and Robin. Batman should stand alone and Robin should be a compliment with no need to go back and change Batman. But the FF should absolutely be done together.

I'm just suggesting that you use caution. That's why I like the idea of 2 pack waves with one DC and one Marvel. Gives the chance to mix and match but also maintain the ease in creation of the cards. Of course, nobody said the figures couldn't mingle across the packs as long as the necessary partnering figures are kept together (Wolverine and Sabertooth, Cloak and Dagger, Powerman and Iron Fist, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver, Pym and Wasp, Daredevil and Elektra, we already took care of GA and the Canary, etc)

[Spidey'tilIDie]

My idea was based on ease of deciding on who to do. Instead of forcing some people to fit for instance, I would like to see Doombots in this wave.

[IAmBatman]

Doombots have nothing to do with the hero packs though.
I guess my thoughts are twofold:
1) I want to make sure we sure we see a balance of Marvel and DC as things come out and I feel the best way to do that is by keeping them in separate boosters. Otherwise, there will either be too much hair splitting in order to keep the number of Marvel and DC figures even every wave or we'll abandon that idea and one universe might end up dominating the other quickly, to the detriment of the overall project.
2) I already thought up tons and tons of themed DC and Marvel boosters for waves and waves in the future. Are you really going to make me scrap all that work and start again? :-P Mean. :-P

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Well since we have three Hero Boosters per wave and one Squad booster I thought it might make it easier to make it closer. I mean its easier to put out 9 and 9 if you can mix and match the boosters.

On a related note, can Common Heroes be released with Unique Heroes? Perhaps we could go this route with Doombots allowing us to add it to this Wave. I think right now (please understand I really want to do White Martians.) Red Skull, Doom, and Darkseid are screaming for minions. If we could do Parademons and/or Doombots as Common Heroes, this would allow us to do White Martians (Who actually may be better as common heroes) and AIM or Hydra as Squads. (BTW, I like AIM or Hydra having 4 member Squads.)

[IAmBatman]

I guess Red Skull and Doom's minions just don't seem as high priority for me until we do C3G versions of either character. Doom, especially, I'd like to see get this treatment. I had him slated for a Master Set 3 look. This would be a Fantastic Four Master Set and would include Doom Bots in the same release. If we're going to do a C3G version of a character at all, rather than releasing a squad that could bond or have synergy with them right away, why not wait until we do our version?
Parademons I completely agree with, and would love to see in the first wave.
I guess it'd be nice to do 10 Marvel cards and 10 DC cards per wave (counting squads), but I don't terribly mind the current set up where it'd be 12 of one and 8 of the other for one wave, then the other way around for the next wave. Though the Indy booster might throw this off a bit, so you might have a point here.
Maybe another problem I'm having is that after spending so much time really refining an approach to at least the first several waves, I'm reluctant to lose anything I've got there (as I really like how it's looking). For instance, who would you lose from one of the Marvel boosters in Wave One and what DC heroes would you replace them with? Or would you mix and match all three boosters?
If you were doing Wave One by this plan, how would it look?

[IAmBatman]

Should I, maybe, just post (in a spoiler) everything I've got mapped out thus far (all the hero boosters for 27 waves, or maybe just the first 10, as they do peter off a bit) and see what you guys think of it before deciding to redo all that work?

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Well, for instance, Lets say we wanna do 9 and 9. We can say we also want to try to keep it 9 Heroes and 9 Villains as well. So that means 4/5 Heroes and 5/4 Villains or maybe even 5/4 and 5/4 (still closer than 12/6 ;) ) So my top 9 DC peeps would be Martian Manhunter, Flash, Green Lantern, and Wonder Woman as heroes with Lex Luthor, Zoom, Sinestro, Grodd, and Circe. Now recognizing that we can't really do all the heavies in one wave, lets replace GL and Flash with Blue Beetle and Booster Gold. Now Zoom, Sinestro, and Grodd don't seem to fit as well, so lets replace them as well with Deadshot and Brainiac. This leaves an empty slot in our DC number so lets do a Common Hero of White Martian. That leaves a DC squad of parademons to round out our DC slots to J'onn, Booster, Beetle, WW, Parademons, White Martian, Lex Luthor, Brainiac, and Deadshot. This means we have some of the heavies MM, WW, Luthor, Brainiac, and Circe; and some lesser known Booster, Beetle, Deadshot, with essentially a squad to augment Darkseid and a perfect counter to MM, which may also be less well known.

Lets do the same for Marvel. Ok, Squad is easy, we will go Hydra or AIM. For Heroes, since we went 4/5 DC we will go 5/4 Marvel. Thor and Wolverine seem like musts, so that is two down. Other Mutant Heroes would be nice, but not necessary. To make the Marvel:The Conflict Begins feel more like an Avengers set, we can steer that way. So, Giant-Man, Wasp, and Hawkeye seem like three of the better candidates. We did however just do an Archer recently, so lets pull something out of left field. How about Firestar? She was A)both an Avenger and an X-Men, and B) is a mutant so she can bond with our previous X-Men set. In addition, she is not as famous as many of the names we have thrown out so far for Marvel. So that just leaves the villains. Well, we have already decided on Juggernaut and his best bud Black Tom should come with him for another taste of obscurity. This leaves 2 Villains left. To really stand toe-to-toe with the big guns we named here, we need a heavy baddie. Some may disagree, but I feel Kang really fits this bill. He has fought the Avengers in multiple incarnations as both Kang and Immortus and alongside them as Iron-Lad. And he can Time-Travel! Who doesn't wanna work out that dynamic for Heroscape? Which just leaves the one spot for Villain. I tend to agree with Bats on the Marvel Heroes and Villains in the M:TCB, many could use a touch of the C3G but it is too early. So going back to our squad, how do you create minions of Doom or Skull if we are gonna redo them later? Answer, Create a right hand man for Skull or Doom whom they also bond with. Hence my suggestion of Baron Strucker and Hydra Agents. Skull is a member of both Hydra and AIM. So we can build bonding into both, but if we tweak it later and lose the bonding, we can set it up to still bond with Strucker.

So our list looks like this:
Unique Heroes
MM
WW
Booster Gold
Blue Beetle
Wolverine
Thor
Giant-Man
Wasp
Firestar

Lex Luthor
Brainiac
Circe
Deadshot
Kang
Juggernaut
Black Tom
Baron Von Strucker

Common Hero:
White Martian

Squads: Agents and Demons
Hydra Agents x4
Parademons x2

We could have one set called Brains and Brawn
Lex Luthor
Blue Beetle
Giant-Man
Thor
MM
Booster Gold

And one called Despots and Destroyers
Kang
Baron Von Strucker
Brainiac
Juggernaut
Black Tom
Deadshot

And finally, Beauties and Beasts
Wasp
WW
Firestar
Circe
White Martian
Wolverine

What do you think?

[IAmBatman]

OK, I forgot to answer this before, but I would be against doing common and unique heroes in the same booster. Just doesn't feel "authentic" to me. If it's common, it should be in the squad pack in place of a squad with a common squad beside it.

[IAmBatman]

I'd rather wait a lot longer for Von Strucker and Firestar and Deadshot personally - you can get much more well known and exciting characters without blowing all the giant names in one wave. After going through about 27 waves of hypothetical listings over the last few days, I realized just how long it takes to get to some of the ones I really want to see. And this is just sticking with some of the ones I feel are more iconic.
Now don't get me wrong, Strucker's not terribly unknown, he's a fairly iconic one, he just isn't likely to make the most interesting Heroscape card, IMO.
I guess my question is, which of these fills you with more excitement for the future of the project?
This -

BOOSTER ONE: BRAVE AND THE BOLD
Martian Manhunter
Booster Gold
Blue Beetle
Zatanna
Etrigan
Gorilla Grodd

BOOSTER TWO: AVENGERS ASSEMBLE
Thor
Scarlet Witch
Quicksilver
Vision
Kang the Conqueror
Ultron

BOOSTER THREE: BROTHERHOOD OF MUTANTS
Juggernaut
Sabretooth
Avalanche
Black Tom
Mastermind
Wolverine

Or this -

Brains and Brawn
Lex Luthor
Blue Beetle
Giant-Man
Thor
Martian Manhunter
Booster Gold

Despots and Destroyers
Kang
Baron Von Strucker
Brainiac
Juggernaut
Black Tom
Deadshot

Beauties and Beasts
Wasp
Wonder Woman
Firestar
Circe
White Martian
Wolverine

I'm not asking this ironically either, it's a serious question. I want to know what people think. If people are digging the Spidey approach more, I'll gladly hand over future wave planning to him.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Deadshot and Strucker were just off the top of my head. I literally came up with this as I typed. I think some of your stuff could be reworked to fit in as well. Personally, I think we do have some niche fans interested in Firestar though, not that I am really one of them. My point was to think outside the box, like we did with Vertigo. I am sure I could sit down and come up with a better list, but i also know relative mini prices off the top of my head. Originally, I was gonna go with Prometheus over Deadshot, but he is about $9.60 cents more. I could also go with Taskmaster instead of Strucker as a righthand to Doom. We could then do a common hero Doombot instead of Hydra Agents and have two common heroes and one squad.

And Wave planning should not be one persons' responsibility, to me that takes alot of the fun out of this project. I don't feel any of us signed on to be dictated to. The beauty of this is that it is a community effort from who we do, to how we do them, to when we do them. I think we have done a great job debating in the past some of these sets and who to include/exclude, we just need a little more voice from some other members right now.

[IAmBatman]

Deadshot and Strucker were just off the top of my head. I literally came up with this as I typed. I think some of your stuff could be reworked to fit in as well. Personally, I think we do have some niche fans interested in Firestar though, not that I am really one of them.

Nor am I. Maybe we should confirm that someone working on the project is before putting him into the wave.

My point was to think outside the box, like we did with Vertigo.

Honestly, as much as I enjoyed putting his card together and like how he turned out, something in me almost regrets putting Vertigo in the Master Set.
The way I see it is this - this project has a finite life to it. As much as Griffin and I joke about working on this for the next thirty years, that's just not a realistic expectation. For that reason, I think to an extent we need to treat every wave like it's our last. Get out thematic boosters that can stand alone. Get out big names early and leave fringe characters for a bit down the road. And the thing is, there are soooo many big names that they can fill the boosters to a large extent for a good ten waves without trouble. That, and a couple more Master Sets and a couple Large Figure Expansions as well. That's enough material there for years of work, without someone as niche as Firestar ever showing up (and I'm OK with that, because the characters that would be included would be more iconic and higher priorities to me as a creator).


And Wave planning should not be one persons' responsibility, to me that takes alot of the fun out of this project. I don't feel any of us signed on to be dictated to.

I agree with this, and I'm not suggesting anyone dictate. It certainly should be a shared approach. If anything, I'm questioning the shift in approach from separate DC and Marvel boosters than shifts within individual boosters.
I also don't believe I'm doing any dictating if that's the insinuation here. All of my suggestions thus far are merely suggestions and have been made with the input of many members here and anyone who's chosen to comment on this thread.
Giant Man was included because people said they were interested in Giant Man. The DC booster was based around the theme of Brave and the Bold because that's the theme we chose as a group. And so on.


The beauty of this is that it is a community effort from who we do, to how we do them, to when we do them. I think we have done a great job debating in the past some of these sets and who to include/exclude, we just need a little more voice from some other members right now.

I'm all about getting more input from people, don't get me wrong, but there's something to be said for strong leadership that pushes a project forward as well. If we do nothing but debate and vote and debate and vote, it slows down the process incredibly. Having someone willing to take the lead and show initiative can be very useful and, no offense, is something that's made this project work so far. Not trying to toot my own horn, but I've spent hours pushing this project forward and I think the results speak for themselves.

[IAmBatman]

And just to add, I know nothing about that Wave One is me dictating, or I wouldn't have gone through about twelve versions of that first wave trying to fit in everyone's requests and opinions. :-)

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Deadshot and Strucker were just off the top of my head. I literally came up with this as I typed. I think some of your stuff could be reworked to fit in as well. Personally, I think we do have some niche fans interested in Firestar though, not that I am really one of them.

Nor am I. Maybe we should confirm that someone working on the project is before putting him into the wave. This wasn't my actual suggestion for our next wave, just a for instance of what I was talking about. Seems we have alot of visual people involved. ;)

My point was to think outside the box, like we did with Vertigo.

Honestly, as much as I enjoyed putting his card together and like how he turned out, something in me almost regrets putting Vertigo in the Master Set.
The way I see it is this - this project has a finite life to it. As much as Griffin and I joke about working on this for the next thirty years, that's just not a realistic expectation. For that reason, I think to an extent we need to treat every wave like it's our last. Get out thematic boosters that can stand alone. Get out big names early and leave fringe characters for a bit down the road. And the thing is, there are soooo many big names that they can fill the boosters to a large extent for a good ten waves without trouble. That, and a couple more Master Sets and a couple Large Figure Expansions as well. That's enough material there for years of work, without someone as niche as Firestar ever showing up (and I'm OK with that, because the characters that would be included would be more iconic and higher priorities to me as a creator). I see where you are coming from, but I don't neccesarily agree. The length of this project will remain healthy as long as the game itself is viable. If heroscape dies, then we are in trouble. As long as people enjoy the process as well, it will remain viable. I may have gone overboard with the unknowns, but we shouldn't lose them altogether, even if we do the Indy's as the unknown each wave (which is kinda what I am for, especially with Garada and Matthelm doing such excellent work on the Hellboy stuff).


And Wave planning should not be one persons' responsibility, to me that takes alot of the fun out of this project. I don't feel any of us signed on to be dictated to.

I agree with this, and I'm not suggesting anyone dictate. It certainly should be a shared approach. If anything, I'm questioning the shift in approach from separate DC and Marvel boosters than shifts within individual boosters.
I also don't believe I'm doing any dictating if that's the insinuation here. All of my suggestions thus far are merely suggestions and have been made with the input of many members here and anyone who's chosen to comment on this thread.
Giant Man was included because people said they were interested in Giant Man. The DC booster was based around the theme of Brave and the Bold because that's the theme we chose as a group. And so on. This was a response to your comment "turn Wave planning over to me". To me, if we officially vote on nothing else, the characters we do should be the number one thing we take a vote on.


The beauty of this is that it is a community effort from who we do, to how we do them, to when we do them. I think we have done a great job debating in the past some of these sets and who to include/exclude, we just need a little more voice from some other members right now.

I'm all about getting more input from people, don't get me wrong, but there's something to be said for strong leadership that pushes a project forward as well. If we do nothing but debate and vote and debate and vote, it slows down the process incredibly. Having someone willing to take the lead and show initiative can be very useful and, no offense, is something that's made this project work so far. Not trying to toot my own horn, but I've spent hours pushing this project forward and I think the results speak for themselves. 100% agreed. No argument here. I doubt DC World's Finest would be ready to launch soon if not for your pushing through the testing and such. BUT, somethings it is OK to drag our feet a little on. Choosing who we do should be one of those things.

My main purpose was not to undermine you, but to look at the whole wave thing from a different perspective. I mean we are setting the rules, why do we have to be limited to Marvel in X number of boosters and DC in Y number. First and foremost this is for us. If we wanna do a wave that consists of all Villains and Thor, we should feel fine doing it. :D

[IAmBatman]

Fair enough.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Night Bats. Thanks for your dedication to this project. I don't think you hear that enough.

[IAmBatman]

Thanks, I appreciate that. :-) Have a good night, Spidey.

[GreyOwl]

One question I'll throw out there...do we need to plan our waves out that far in advance, or even at all? Can't we just wait until we're ready to work on a wave and then decided what we want to do at that time? We should keep in mind that our membership (both people and total number) and interests may be different by the time we actually get to a wave than it is now.

[IAmBatman]

No, you're absolutely right. In my excitement for this new forum and for the idea of the future direction of this project in general, I got a bit overzealous. I wasn't really looking to nail anything down anyway, so much as share ideas. :-)

[GreyOwl]

I'm okay with it then. If we're just talking and planning and discussing, that's cool. I just don't want to vote and lock anything in this far ahead.

[IAmBatman]

Oh, definitely no voting yet - and voting would be needed to lock anything down.
I'm still liking the idea of one booster to represent each of our first three originally planned waves, though (Brave and the Bold, X-Men, and Avengers).

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I am not against this idea either, especially for the first Wave. However, the other way allows us to put out MM, Flash, GL, and Wonder Woman in the set along with appropriate Villains, which if we aren't gonna hold people back, I really wanna do!

[IAmBatman]

As long as I get the "big five" within the first two waves, I'm happy.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

OK, just finished reading Issue 2 of the new Black Widow Origin story, gotta say awesome! It is making me very pumped to create her, especially as it seems she has been "involved" with nearly every male Avenger! They just revealed that she is a recipient of the Russian version of the Super-Soldier Serum, which is why she hasn't aged since her intro! Lets create her in our next Wave!